Would God Allow Kids To Get Cancer? Maybe...
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
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-------------------------------------VIDEO NOTES-------------------------------------
The problem of evil is one of the most famous and powerful arguments against God's existence, but it less famously comes in multiple forms.
In this video, Jon McCray, from the UA-cam channel, 'Whaddo You Meme??' argues that it may be justifiable for a loving God to permit children getting cancer, in order to serve some greater good. I'm less than convinced.
Some philosophical notes:
1. There is a difference between an argument being deductive and being valid. All examples of deductive arguments I have given are valid (for simplicity of explanation). First characterisation of the logical problem of evil ('I can't think of a reason, therefore there is no reason') is invalid, yet it is clear from the conclusion that he is attempting a deductive rather than an inductive argument. It is therefore an invalid deductive argument. The very point Jon is making is that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise, implying that it should do in order to be a good argument. If the conclusion must follow to make it a good argument, it is an attempt at deduction.
2. My use of the word 'syllogism' throughout this video is regrettable upon review. A syllogism is technically a formation of a valid deductive argument, not just any formation of any argument (which is how I was using it). If confused, replace my use of 'syllogism' with 'specific version of an argument'.
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Alex O'Connor
Po Box 1610
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Growing up I was taught "Man is a rational animal." I quickly learned that "Man is a rationalizing animal" is closer to the truth.
If there is no creator then we are just animals and then a person would be doing nothing evil when he kills you... just like an animal does nothing evil when it kills another animal....
Unless you do it in the name of God in which case all manner of atrocities are permitted.
@@Maarten927 if your belief in god is the only thing keeping you from seeing nothing wrong in killing another human being, then I'm happy you're religious.
@@timberry4709 atrocities are commited with or without a belief in God.
@@Maarten927 We evolved as social animals, your argument is bunk. Good people do good things, bad people do bad, but to get good people to do bad things it only takes religion or an ideology that acts like religion! We do kill to eat, like every other animal. We are monkeys with larger frontal lobes, but our adrenals are too large, hence fighting a lot. Take some biology courses before spouting creationist crap on social media. You won't look so ignorant! 💝✌
Initiate countdown to demonetisation...
Why do you think so?!
@Unprofitable Servant Karen, who hurt you?
@Unprofitable Servant no u
@Unprofitable Servant is this a joke
Apparently having the word ‘atheist’ anywhere in your video, description or tag smashes your ability to monetise your video... it’s a shame really.
“God has a bigger plan for them.”
If that were true, why bother bringing them here to begin with.
The. God of this world is. Satan. Believe it. Look at trump and his wickedness.
@@michaelpondo6324 you stupid.
@@michaelpondo6324 If God is all powerful why would Satan be the God of this world? That argument doesn't go far lol.
@a sick nothing, truly a loathsome creature. That doesn't answer his question.
@a sick nothing, truly a loathsome creature.
I don't see how God's failure to create Adam in his image explain anything about his plan.
He says that God has a good reason for giving children cancer. Yet whenever a Christian family has a child with cancer they pray day and night for it to go away, and praise God for saving the child from cancer when and if the cancer finally goes away.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jon McCray would change his tune if one of his *own* kids were dying of cancer - it seems that children having cancer is fine as long as they're *other people's* "shitty" children and not *his* "perfect" ones...
I think he'd be praying like mad for god to take the cancer away if it were one of his own children rather than saying "well, god gave my kid cancer so there must be some greater harm that's being avoided."
yeah on that argument, if his kid got cancer, he should be like 'honey, our boy has got a tumor praise Jesus. Let's make it more blessed by putting him under a car exhaust so all those carcinogens make him even worse.'
Lies
@fynes leigh what you said literally makes no sense. Try again
My personal favorite is when they die of cancer and now, God has blessed them and taken them to a better place. So...we're afraid of what the cancer could do by killing the child but are blessed when the child was taken away? It's the reason I struggle with Christianity.
These kind of videos are ALWAYS important. Keep it up.
Jupiterbase13
Why
Da Koos Someone counterargues an argument, and that counterargument may sound logical, but actually isn't, do we not point those things out?
These kind of videos are always important for what purpose?
@@Jasho-Beam for keeping religious idiots at bay
@@dadnonlyd3
Religious idiots are hardly your problem. How do you not see the elephant in the room?
I really like your response videos
I hope you never stop making them
Thanks Heather
Hi Alex. The problem of evil is one of my least favorite atheist talking points. And I say that as an atheist myself.
Both good and evil must exist for there to be a metric by which goodness or evilness are measured. The setup of this problem begs for the trait of omnibenevolence to be more precisely defined.
One way to interpret it is that all of god's actions are good. Then the evil in the world can be distinguished through agency (aka the free will of men making god not directly responsible). This fails for the theist of course, but as an atheist I wonder why not just start on free will in the first place. (This isn't a criticism of you btw, it makes sense for a response video to start where the previous argument left off)
A second way to interpret omnibenevolence is that all good is attained through god (and not necessarily that all which comes from god is good). I'm curious of what your response would be in this case.
You are struggling so why don't you just give up while you are so far behind. You know atheism is just a complete sham as you will never be able to invent or find any good reason for why you think God does not exist. Paediatric cancer? LOL !!!
Whats funny is that you think you are convincing anyone with that reply.
Heather Draws He shouldn’t because we learn from them too.
If God is omnipotent, He would be able to explain His plan to us in a way we would understand.
Exactly!
omnipotent is the ability of doing something that's logical, not doing anything. thus, as i perceive it, our limited intelect can't, a priori, understand God's plan, given the sheer dimension and complexity of it. hope this helps, cheers
Blessings - *He* has, you are just not bright enough to be able to understand it. :) J/K! Once you decide to believe, everything will start making sense. *God* bless!
How would you define ‘logically possible’?
@@joaodealbuquerque8819 "omnipotent is the ability of doing something that's logical, not doing anything."
By "logical" do you just mean non-contradictory?
Just the fact that were still arguing this in modern times is beyond me.
are you not assuming people in modern times are somehow "smarter" than people in ancient history? Yikes..
@@SundayVibesmusic Did you just say yikes to try and make me look stupid without any evidence of the contrary?
Yikes.
@@SundayVibesmusic well.. thats kinda how society works, over time we learn more and get smarter and there is proof that generations become smarter than the one before
@Strengt of Yahweh Work on your spelling man.
@Strengt of Yahweh That’s subjective lol. Language has just changed over time. Who’s to say that the way we speak now is less sophisticated? It’s just different. Plus, how would English changing disprove the science that we have discovered? Those things are not related.
Also, thousands of years ago, when someone was thought to have a mental illness, others believed there were evil spirits controlling that person, and they would drill holes into their head. Now we know for the most part what causes certain mental diseases. They also would drain the blood of people who were sick. We know so much about the world now, and we are able to cure so many diseases. We know how so many things work. How can you seriously say that people are not smarter now. You can even look at the Flynn effect and see just how much intelligence has changed in the past few decades.
"I restrain my child at the dentist's for his own good. I am a benevolent father. Therefore God allows suffering sometimes."
But I am the Benevolent Father. Instead of restraining my son at the dentist for his own eventual good, I could just painlessly cure the toothache instead. There is no tough love necessary if you are an omnipotent Father.
@@ScuffedF1 Meh. God created Heaven where there are free-willed persons AND no evil.
So it IS in God's power to create a world without evil.
We do not see that world.
Therefore...
Need I say more?
Besides, 1955 Mackie would kick 1981 Mackie's arse.
We get old, we get anxious about sinking into death. We grasp at floating straws.
It sucks.
Edit: Mackie DIED in 1981. Nothing like imminent death to scare God into you and poison your logic! Look up Anthony Flew, for example.
@@ScuffedF1 Mackie is the philosopher quoted in the video link you posted.
@@ScuffedF1 "Am I stupid lmao? I dont get this joke? (if it is one)?"
No one cares.
@@ScuffedF1 "thats not nice :("
:(
@@ScuffedF1 "oooh whos Mackie? Is he/she worth researching and learning from
"
Was that nice?
"please be nice man, you never know what someone is going through
"
Time to read a page from your own book.
My own little sister died in March of Ewings Sarcoma cancer that started in her spine.
She suffered in agony for months before she passed away. She was 12 years old. Nothing is more disgusting to me than hearing people tell me that God has some kind of plan for my little sister.
WTF kind of plan involves giving a 12 year old cancer that cripples her and leaves her bedridden for months before withering into a slow death? Not a good plan.
This channel's defense was disgusting. Thank you for talking about this Alex. This was a personal one for me.
Still odder to claim we all somehow CHOOSE it because of two people and a tree...
I'm so sorry for your loss, I understand you! Hope you find strenght, much love and a virtual hug ❤
Strength*
May her soul rest in peace.
You asked about a plan, actually God has a way not a plan.
God had to create a way for us to fall away from Him so that we could return to Him on our own.
This way we are not forced to Love Him.
The world wants you to get angry, hateful and bitter for 5, 10 even 50 years of your life.
This is how Satan destroys peoples lives.
God wants you to be free from the world.
He wants you to walk on water every single day of your life, overcoming the world.
Ask yourself, are you walking on water today or are you drowning in anger?
@Fresh Living
I think your reply is very insensitive towards OP. But who am I to tell you that.
Regarding your point, why does God 'have to' do anything (like letting us fall away from him) if he is omnipotent? He could solve the problem without letting anybody suffer.
And how are the prospects of either ending up in infinite agony in hell or in eternal bliss in heaven any different from forcing us to love him?
This reminds of a the quote by Epicurus
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
That James hitch dude clearly needs to read a bit more lol
@James Hitch. There is no such thing as not being fully omnipotent, you're either omnipotent or you're not. And the bible claims that god is omnipotent literally all the time. And if God is omnipotent like the bible claims he is, then how can it not be one of the most important things to keep in mind when studying the bible?
@James Hitch. GOD is almighty
@James Hitch. Wow. So many fallacious arguments you got there.
Let me list it out for you:
1. Ad hominem
2. Faulty Analogy
3. Appeal to ignorance
4. Strawmanning
The Bible did claim that God is omnipotent, it was said in Revalation 19:6. So not only are you lying about the bible, You also have the temerity to say that we are dumb, when in fact, it is the other way around. And how does God "riding a horse" have to do with anything.
@James Hitch. understanding what Omnipotence is, doesnt require you seeing it.
Omnipotent comes from the two Latin word omnis meaning "all", and potens meaning power.
Meaning = All-Powerful
If you still can't understand what Omnipotence is, then you lack the brain cells to comprehend what I'm saying.
I am a man
Bill gates is a man
Thus I am bill gates, and I am a billionaire.
I am a man.
I am basically hairless and bipedal.
That means a plucked chicken is a man
I like your name so I gave you a thumbs up 👍
Can I borrow a hundred thousand pounds for an investment opportunity involving a horse race?
Not Applicable
Voluntary Hobo time
Your conclusion does not follow necessarily from the premises because not all men are Bill Gates.
Alex, your arguments have a surgical precision about them, cleanly cutting through the crap. Keep up the great work!
DIY Astro It's like a heart transplant without the blood.
I'm telling you we need this kid in general relativity.
His arguments are bad:
ua-cam.com/video/5txNS91wbcc/v-deo.html
Your friend Alex got served by Jon. Kicked Alex's @$$. And FYI your ability to discern a good argument from a bad argument is severely lacking. As shown by your post. 😎
ua-cam.com/video/5txNS91wbcc/v-deo.html until the part he got caught lying straight up
All cats ARE black! Deep down in the dark recesses of their black souls.
Gerald O'Steen jesus christ I didn’t think someone would just expose cats like this. I’m crying and shaking rn
My cat is very nice and kind.
@@xunqianbaidu6917 Okay?
@@alyssahansen1400 It will betray you, it is building up your trust.
@@alyssahansen1400 Cats are jerks. God, I love em 😁🐱
Brings me back to when I discovered your channel in 2016! It was so small and I'm so proud to see how far you've come!
Wow, I would not expect to see you here...
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." James 4
@Bocaan The Humble
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
James 4:7-8
@Bocaan The Humble
You are already a slave to your sin So it is just case of whether you choose to die a salve or to be set free from sin which leads to eternal death.
Why proud?
Referring to Alex's "man beating his wife" scenario, if the man said "I have a good reason" but didn't tell them what it was, would a Christian give the man a pass?
Because they do exactly that for Jehovah.
Nonsense, all the Abrahamic religions clearly distinguish being a human being from being god. You can only make this argument by prematurely assuming that the rules for human beings are identical to the rules for a concept referred to by the word 'god'. Now let's replace the word 'god' by a word like "nature". We can then consider statements like "with the tsunami, nature killed thousands of people".. A human being who killed thousands of people gets sentenced to prison or even gets a death sentence. Are you suggesting we should attempt to imprison nature or give nature the death sentence now? See how ridiculous it gets when comparing the rules for things that are so fundamentally different to the degree it's impossible to apply the same set of rules to both of them?
And based on this silly faulty generalization, you seem to be accusing other human beings of being irrational. Generally the atheists I see on youtube are so eager to accuse non atheists that they either just go for the low hanging fruits, or start arguing irrational things like you are doing here. It's just as silly as seeing young earth creationists attempting to debunk science based on their biblical interpretation, which is an equally heretic act according to Catholic doctrine. So unfortunate that atheists are capable of seeing the silliness of the latter, but tend to lack the ability to see the same silliness by applying the same method in the opposite direction.
@@BlacksmithTWD *Nonsense, all the Abrahamic religions clearly distinguish being a human being from being god. You can only make this argument by prematurely assuming that the rules for human beings are identical to the rules for a concept referred to by the word 'god'.*
Prematurely bending the rules in favour of a god would be special pleading.
*Now let's replace the word 'god' by a word like "nature". We can then consider statements like "with the tsunami, nature killed thousands of people".. A human being who killed thousands of people gets sentenced to prison or even gets a death sentence. Are you suggesting we should attempt to imprison nature or give nature the death sentence now? See how ridiculous it gets when comparing the rules for things that are so fundamentally different to the degree it's impossible to apply the same set of rules to both of them?*
Nature has no awareness of the concept of right and wrong; humans and gods do. (Indeed, we don't punish _humans_ the same way when they don't understand the concept of right and wrong.) My comparison is apt.
But please tell me why we should treat a god differently than humans.
@@JMUDoc
Prematurely bending the rules against god is special pleading, which is why I objected to your statement in the first place. You are just attempting a tu quoque fallacy here.
"Nature has no awareness of the concept of right and wrong; humans and gods do."
Confirmed inconsistency in your argument, replacing 'god' with 'gods' in the following sentence without providing a reason on why singular just gotten plural. were you talking about one god or about multiple gods?
If gods have awareness of the concept of right and wrong, then they do exist, yet seeing your original statement you seem to be arguing against the existence of any god(s). So which is it? Do(es) god(s) exist yes or no?
Why exclude the possibility of a god believed in by one of more human beings to be nature? Isn't that the position of naturalists?
I'm not so much interested in what you claim about what 'they' do or claim. I'm interested in what you do and claim. So far you don't strike me as being very coherent in your thoughts, but please do try prove me wrong in this estimation.
@@BlacksmithTWD *Prematurely bending the rules against god is special pleading, which is why I objected to your statement in the first place. You are just attempting a tu quoque fallacy here.
*
Refusing to bend the rules in your favour is not the same as bending the rules against you.
*"Nature has no awareness of the concept of right and wrong; humans and gods do."
Confirmed inconsistency in your argument, replacing 'god' with 'gods' in the following sentence without providing a reason on why singular just gotten plural. were you talking about one god or about multiple gods?*
Read "gods" as "a god", then.
*Why exclude the possibility of a god believed in by one of more human beings to be nature? Isn't that the position of naturalists?*
Naturalists merely reject the supernatural, we don't all worship nature. Nature has no consciousness, no will, so it makes no sense to hold it accountable for anything.
*So far you don't strike me as being very coherent in your thoughts, but please do try prove me wrong in this estimation.*
A person's god does or allows something apparently horrible and the person gives the god a pass. I want to know why.
JMUDoc
You failed to answer whether according to you god does or gods do exist or not. If you can't even be honest about your own position, I'm not going to discuss possible positions of other people with you.
Something that doesn't exist, doesn't have consciousness, doesn't have will, so it makes no sense to hold it accountable for anything according to your own logic. Since you claimed that "Nature has no awareness of the concept of right and wrong; humans and gods do." this must mean that gods do exist. I asked you for confirmation on your position which logically seems to be "gods exist" or "god exists" , yet you refrained from confirming this. So please, either confirm or deny it, and then starting from there we can see if your other claims are as consistent with that position as you seem to be thinking. So far it rather seems you want to have your cake and eat it.
Christian apologists have so much explaining to do for God. I would never sign up for that full time job.
San Miguel TV
They have a presupposition.
How much does it pay?
Hit me up if you want to learn more about gods Glory and grace :) ❤️✝️
It only requires fooling those who've been previously programmed to ignore major flaws in logic. It also apparently pays pretty well
@kevin litton I will pray that Jesus brings you to the truth ❤️
You are so very good at explaining complicated ideas. My only wish is that you would do more in shorter formats like this. I'm not that bright. The longer the presentation, the less I keep up. Even so, I love hearing you speak. The melody is good even if the lyrics pass me by.
@Rob Lowe Really? I have a short attention span and and like his presentation. What's dishonest about that?
I know what you mean, unfamiliar territory like philosophy is hard to follow especially when there are lots of steps to remember to get a full understanding. My memory is not that good so I frequently pause Alex's videos to memorise and absorb before moving on. That really helps.
lankmahr Because you recognize your own flaws and limitations, I think you’re more bright than many people.
@@icemanzeke One who knows his limitations is wiser than one who doesn't.
@Rob Lowe pls give me 6reasons how he's dishonest
He's the most realistic UA-camr I have ever met
And he's bringing logic into dumbness
"It's all part of the plan"
Then what the heck is the plan?
Evil is a punishment for sin. It's that simple.
@@Jk-pv3do Fuck your sin
@@Jk-pv3do Sin that God knew would come about when he first made the human race, and sin that God knew we would all do. He's punishing us for doing something he knew we would do because of the flaws he built into us.
Thanks, God.
"Create Universe"
"Create Humans"
"Give Billy Fucking Cancer"
@@letters_from_paradise it's your choice tho. Why do we make children we know will die one day?
Was diagnosed with cancer when i was 13, i was mormon at the time (along with my whole family) and i was constantly told that this was gods “plan”, or this is just one of his trials. As a 13 year old boy who was already struggling with fitting in and trying to make sense of the world, this hit me like a truck. My whole perspective of reality had been torn from under me, cancer was one of those things for me that i never could imagine would happen to me. I remained mormon up until the end of my junior year of high school, i had questioned things before. But i really thought about it then, and some of the things i saw in the oncology room were the biggest transitioning factor for me, i saw kids completely drained of life, unable to walk on their own, eating and drinking through a straw. I could not fathom how a loving god could EVER do this to his children, “trial” or not. One of the most traumatic memories i have was a little girl constantly throwing up next to me because the chemotherapy was too much for her body to handle. Humanity’s biggest lie.
I'm glad you are better now ❤
So what's your explanation for it? What could anyone have said to you that would make your situation better? What would you have said as an atheist? Why do good people or even not so good suffer? What is the point? What insight did you get from you experience? Life sucks, then you die?
And if God is omnipotent, why does God need smaller evils to prevent greater evils? If greater evils exist, then maybe God isn't all that omnipotent. It's the basic problem of Satan. Christians tend to elevate the power of Satan, even though God is supposed to be more powerful, and is responsible for the existence of Satan. It becomes this unrelenting circular reasoning. Excellent commentary.
There's also the part about Satan messing up God's plan in the Garden of Eden. How could God let that happen?
Interestingly, in the Mormon version, this was all in God's plan. Adam and Eve needed to eat the fruit so that they can learn and develop on Earth, which couldn't happen if they remained in the garden. But then that makes God manipulative and yeah, you get other problems.
God is not a Utilitarianist
Satan is only more powerful while we are not submitting to God.
We chose to live independently from God and died spiritually, you cant have life if you are not rightly connected to the source of life.
Jesus claims that we can become spiritually alive again because of what He has done on the cross. Such a person who is born again is being prepared to be in Jesus kingdom which will be heaven because God rules there. It will be this earth put back to how it was originally created.
God respects those who dont want His rule and they wont be in His kingdom, that will be hell because God doesnt rule there.
@@miguelthealpaca8971 - God let that happen because He gave us free will. We could chose to live independently of Him and not trust Him. It is true today, we chose whether we will depend on Him or not.
If you are not rightly connected to the source of life you are not going to have life.
@@JuliexSteadman "God let that happen because He gave us free will." I kinda expected this lame ass response. The idea of a malevolent angel God created coercing us to do bad things is the antithesis of free will. It's manipulative. The only way you can explain evil or disobedience toward God as free will is if Satan does not exist.
All gays are fabulous.
I am gay.
Therefor, i am fabulous.
This one is correct tho 😅
@@rosegirl5019 yep, it,s logically correct unlike the chicken and the grandma
@@soulshy65 lmao that one is funny
Yes, I agree. We gays are fabulous 😤👊🏼
Hell yeah, baby!
GOD : *Let children have cancer*
also God: "because i'm all-loving"
Why are you gay ?
Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
God don’t give anyone cancer, what you eat is what you get. God tells you not to eat certain things and you do, well who’s fault is that! A kid eats things from the parents and get something, it’s the parents fault.
@@graverobbersministry8349 ah, so its the parents fault and their innocent child dies ...sounds fair
@Annabelle you are gay
@@graverobbersministry8349 ah, that makes it even better! the parents make a mistake and therefore god kills their child? sounds cool, what a loving god!
Everytime, i listen to the religious argument and im like : man this guy made a point, its logical how the hell Alex is gonna respond to that.
And then Alex just blows my mind.
@@ScuffedF1 no ❤️
I’m at 9:18
If this dude says “God works in mysterious ways” I’m going to hulk smash something
Go for it.
Yeah we kicked some ass
Yea that's where they always end up.
"GOD is beyond your understanding."
Well, so is evolution and rational scientitic, logical thought, for your simple minds.
@Craig Viau which replies?
LOL I think he avoided those exact words.
Lovely how he makes a parallel between dying children and a cavity.
That wasnt the point of his story, watch the original video
@@joshwhiting2768 obviously that wasn't the point. that is what the logic of his argument suggests though.
Push no it wasn’t, and he made it clear in the original video. CS cut it out on purpose -_-
He doesn't, in fact he explicitly says this isn't the point he was making, that he's only comparing us to the children unable to understand why that evil is necessary.
@@freshrockpapa-e7799 kk. your god let’s babys get sexually assaulted. get the fuck out of my mentions now thanks.
Comparing "going to the dentist" with "cancer" is an intellectually insulting argument for anyone with an IQ beyond the single digits. Good job Alex.
More like cancer with 5G
The reason God allows and permits evil to occurs is that He can bring a greater good out of the evils. Now, we might not be able to know or comprehend what that reason is. But, just because we don't know, that does not mean that there is no reason or that there probably isn't a reason. If an atheist were to argue like this, they would be arguing from ignorance, which is logically fallacious. But, we can claim that there is a reason because we already have good independent reasons to affirm God's existence and His perfect goodness. So, the problem of evil, both logical and evidential, don't work.
@@anonymousperson1904
"The reason God allows and permits evil to occurs is that He can bring a greater good out of the evils."
---> So this means that God can't bring a greater good without evil? If that's the case, then sure, he's not that powerful because he needs evil in order to have the greater good.
Don't think that your God is the only one which have those characteristics(needs evil for greater good). Other people have proposed a God with those characteristics, and some other stuff. We don't really have a good reason to say that "oh, this sounds logical, let's believe it".
"Now, we might not be able to know or comprehend what that reason is. But, just because we don't know, that does not mean that there is no reason or that there probably isn't a reason."
---> This has been explained in the video. The "no reason" part, not your "there probably isn't a reason part" btw. For the example that Alex had gave, the man beating his wife, do we say that there's likely a good reason? Well not really, we would rather think that there's unlikely a good reason. *Unlikely*, not *none*.
"If an atheist were to argue like this, they would be arguing from ignorance, which is logically fallacious."
---> Okay, it's likely there's a good reason for a man to beat his wife (just an example). Is that really likely/probable? Can we really conceive that there must be a good reason in that situation? Well it's only unlikely that there's a good reason. Is saying it's unlikely ignorant? If yes, then good job, you just said that it's not okay to think that if a man beating his wife, it's not unlikely to have a good reason.
"But, we can claim that there is a reason because we already have good independent reasons to affirm God's existence and His perfect goodness."
---> So what are these "good independent reasons to affirm God's existence and His perfect goodness."? Present them please.
"So, the problem of evil, both logical and evidential, don't work."
---> problem of evil(logical/deductive version) is something like this:
Premise 1: If a god who is all loving and all powerful, exists, then evil wouldn't exist.
Premise 2: Evil exists
Conclusion: A god who is all loving and all powerful, doesn't exist.
problem of evil(evidential/inductive version) is something like this:
Premise 1: An all loving and all powerful god allowing evil is unlikely
Premise 2: Evil exists
Conclusion: An all loving and all powerful god exists
Now, people have used the deductive version, people have used the inductive version, what do you mean by, "they don't work"? What have you shown that is/are made this 2 not work? Nothing yet. So show them, in your next comment.
@@NekoDalian Nope. I said that there are already good independent reasons for affirming God's existence and His perfect goodness. So, while we may be ignorant for why certain horrendous evils occur, we can still have rational belief in the existence of God and His goodness given the arguments in favour of classical theism.
However, for you, as an atheist, to argue from the premise that we don't know why such-and-such an evil occurred, to therefore, God is evil or probably evil, or therefore, a good God probably doesn't exist, is an argument from ignorance.
@@sylicone6952 So this means that God can't bring a greater good without evil?"
Yes, because some goods presuppose evils. For example, there couldn't be forgiveness or compassion if there wasn't also cruelty or iniquity. Or that we couldn't acknowledge or recognize the significance and value of 'the good' without there being evil to contrast it with etc. But, this does not mean that God is not all-powerful since He is the source of all power. However, contradictions do not exist and so cannot limit His power when they don't exist in the first place. Now, since cruelty and iniquity are necessary preconditions for forgiveness and compassion, and since God wants to create a world with greater goods such as forgiveness and compassion, He cannot make a world completely devoid of evil when some greater goods presuppose evil, as that would be impossible.
"the man beating his wife, do we say that there's likely a good reason? Well not really, we would rather think that there's unlikely a good reason. *Unlikely*, not *none*."
Again, to go from, we don't know why God allowed such an evil to occur, to, therefore, God is probably evil or probably doesn't exist or it's unlikely that a good God exists, is to argue from ignorance. Also, the analogy here is also an argument from ignorance. Just because you don’t know the reason why the husband is beating the wife up, it would be fallacious to assume that there probably isn’t a valid reason. However, this does not mean that you will not do anything to stop the man from attacking his wife irrespective of the reason.
"If You're a black Christian You have a real short memory"
Chris Rock
Righhht my friend and I were just talking about this same topic!
Chris Rock is a Christian, no? I just watched Tambourine and he was talking about how he was "trying to find God before God finds me".
@@debunkerofatheism6874 Not at all
“When you’re black there’s like no religion to turn to. It’s like, Christianity? I don’t think so. White people justified slavery and segregation through Christianity so a black Christian is like a black person with no fucking memory.”
-Outtake from the 1989 documentary short "Who Is Chris Rock?"
@@antilopezmexicanos
but christianity itself does not justify slavery. anyone can use various religions to justify whatever they want, just as anyone can use anything else to justify whatever they want. it's not an issue with religion. even without religion those people would be doing the same thing.
@@mrlloydval2887 Yes it does
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
We need your patience and accuracy to deal with these matters. Thanks!❤
Alex in the thumbnail: "Oi, u think I'm playin' bish?"
I like to retort that the Gods who "do good WITH evil" or have "good reasons for BAD events or actions", are LESS consistent with an all-loving and all-powerful God idea than those who can do all the good WITHOUT using evil, and do GOOD for good reasons.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
@@ljgarrison6910 who said that?
Why does god need so many excuse maker's, to justify himself? Does god have a mouth?
@Mickey Barnyard can you prove it though?…
Jesus has a mouth. The answer is yes.
Its funny how often xtians will say that they know what god wants, and explain god's rationale, then say, (invariably when they're called out on something) that we can't know how god thinks...because he's god..
Look up diseases and in scripture when they will be no more
@Jim Merrilees the hearts of men are desperately wicked. In heaven the saints have no diseases and live forever. On earth Christians are the healthiest and happiest with or without diseases and the lowest suicide rates in earth see the blue zones and with long life. Man is responsible for many diseases in any event the Most High told us in advance the troubles that come with sin, rebellion and disobedience includes diseases. So it's just another prophesy fulfilling in all generations.
The reason God allows and permits evil to occurs is that He can bring a greater good out of the evils. Now, we might not be able to know or comprehend what that reason is. But, just because we don't know, that does not mean that there is no reason or that there probably isn't a reason. If an atheist were to argue like this, they would be arguing from ignorance, which is logically fallacious. But, we can claim that there is a reason because we already have good independent reasons to affirm God's existence and His perfect goodness. So, the problem of evil, both logical and evidential, don't work.
@Jim Merrilees Why don't people cease their wickedness? See Obadiah a certain set of people are responsible for the most wickedness in earth don't blame the Most High. The entire Bible and all prophesy cover a time it includes atheists, unbelievers, blasphemers, wicked, etc including children and adults! Many children benefit from the wickedness of their parents do they give up those benefits in acts of repentance? No!
@Jim Merrilees Look up on UA-cam how many testimonies of people cured from their diseases: the Bible is full of examples too of multiple cures
I see the theology degree is treating you well. You've come a long way philosophically! Well done.
“Maybe the couple is trialing an experimental form of new-age medicine for a nasal infection.” 😂😂 this has me LOL
Bro! I was initially starting to feel that dentistry argument. Then you hit me with the whole "why not prevent the greater evil instead of allowing the smaller to prevent it" and blew my mind! I'd hope I would have gotten there myself eventually, but I'll be damned if your killer argument didn't catch me off guard! Well played. I love that you're making this type of video again!
Dude, God does exist, he's just at area 51 chilling with some aliens
Titanus_SebaRex wait... IS god an alien? 🤔
Me and the boys finding Russell's teapot in Area 51
Can’t wait to meet him in September 20th!
Are you trying to convince me to storm Area 51?
Yeah cause you're profile picture says a lot idoit!
The first commandment, "Thou shall not kill kids with cancer."
Thou shalt not cook goats in their mothers milk
God doesn’t kill. Satan gives kids cancer so they can’t live/lose there faith in god. Don’t fall for Satan’s tricks god loves you
@@nathanwaltrip7220
HOOWAH! 👍😎
@@MangoLemonaideFresh you have a good heart, but yo perpetuate superstition
@@MangoLemonaideFresh Satan can't give what god created. He was only an angel, not a god. He can only manipulate according to the bible.
I’m one of few atheists in my community and I have a relationship with a youth pastor in school for theology. He asked me to attend a QandA service and I obliged. At one point a young girl posed a question about innocent suffering. This guy used a true anecdote about a teen in our city who was killed by a train. He explained that her death was a good thing because many people who attended her memorial service were “saved” and accepted Christ at said service. I was so disgusted with this answer and haven’t been able to see him quite the same since. I cannot comprehend how your god having new minions to worship him means the violent death of an innocent child is not only acceptable, but good.
Were you any better than those who died when the tower fell?
@@TrueNovice if I knew what you were asking I’d give you a genuine answer, but I don’t know what you’re saying.
While I am a christian, I am not apposed to differing points of view. You approach it intelligently and I find that seeing all sides (even if they differ than my own) are valuable for reaching an informed opinion on these subjects. Keep up the good work👍
What manner of man is this??
It’s so refreshing sometimes to see a good, level headed christan willing to see the other side of the argument, even if they don’t agree
Opposed
Ah, one who is not a Bible-thumping maniac. Salutations, my good man.
Yeah, I 'm a Christian too and I've been watching countless atheist videos! lol
While, admittedly, some have upset me cos it's difficult sometimes to hear and consider, to some degree, a very different worldview, I have been able to remove some rubbish from my mind and become more appropriately skeptical.
I think you devoted a rather large amount of time to distinguishing between the logical and evidential versions of the problem of evil. All the same, I love how you demonstrated that the best-of-all-possible-worlds argument just pushes the problem back. Great work.
YOU, BEING "THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE"
hypothetically, if you were to be "the God of the universe," how would you make this world a better place to live in -- a "never-neverland" full of great & wonderful imagination?
if you obliterate or take away "evil," "wickedness" & "negativity" from the equation, then everything in your imagined & created world would simply be nothing, but filled with overflowing "goodness," "happiness" & "positivity" -- am i incorrect?
of course, you would create human beings, where everything inside their hearts & minds were bursting with nothing, but overflowing goodness, happiness, joy & positivity. do you think people would no longer need the "moral compass" to parse & discern what is good (beneficial) & what is evil (harmful) before their very eyes -- am i incorrect?
do you think, when everyone seemed so good, happy & contented (devoid of any form of evil or wicked thoughts brewing inside their hearts & minds), then everyone would be so "gloriously perfect" -- that their well-calculated moves, flawless actions, impeccable behavior & character would be akin to the creepy "stepford's wives"; the walking & talking "ken & barbie dolls"; the 21st century "avenger-like" transhumans; or the genetically-engineered artificial intelligent humanoids similar to the "avatars"?
definitely, being "the God of the universe" you would create an ethereal "utopia" -- a world where every living things (plants, animals (including dinosaurs), microorganisms, and most especially, human beings) would be totally free from blood-thirsty barbarism, pain, suffering, affliction, sickness, disease, disorder, turbulence, catastrophe, cataclysm, endangerment, cannibalism, guilt, madness, insanity, stupidity, idiocy, craziness, fear, trepidation, anxiety, worry, hate, angst, anger, grudge, negativity, sorrow, sadness, melancholy, problem, trouble, complication, misfortune, accident, injury, tragedy, and even, death -- am i incorrect?
finally, how would you manage, control, balance, weigh, maintain the rapidly growing number of living things (plants, animals (including dinosaurs), microorganisms, and human beings) that were quickly reproducing every split second (especially the microorganisms)?
bear in mind: all of your wonderful & perfect creations would have infinite lives or immortal existence. yes, each one of them thrives, dwells & lives in eternal & everlasting coexistence -- seeing no form of sickness, catastrophe, fatality, death, or whatsoever
pretty sure, in a matter of days, the planet earth would be filled to the brim with all of the plants, animals (including dinosaurs), microorganisms and human beings
in a matter of days, many would be forced to evacuate & transfer to the nearest planets: mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, so on & so forth
what if all of the planets & stars in the universe would be "packed to the rafters" by all of these fast-growing, quickly-reproducing, fast-expanding, quickly-multiplying (never exterminating, never perishing, never dying) living organisms in the whole wide universe -- would you be forced to create another universe, one after another?
how many universes would you create -- 1 million? 1 billion? 1 trillion? 1 quadrillion? 1 quintillion? 1 sextillion? (ad infinitum, ad nauseum)
@@nzsl368 didnt god already try something like this with adam and eve?
@@ravissary79 It's a little difficult to understand you here, but from what I can tell, you seem to be agreeing with my original comment. Is that right?
@@bakarenibsheut12 no. I wasn't. I found a significant typo and corrected it.
Try again.
Thank you for the refresher on deductive/inductive reasoning. So few people understand the difference.
Tbh, I always thought that the multiple-god theory is much more logically viable than a single God theory. In doing so, one can explain the evils of the world without necessarily blemishing the legitimacy of the Gods as a whole. In contrast, being forced to explain LITERALLY everything is a direct problem inherent of the single God theory, that is impossible to answer without serious logical gymnastics.
Your videos always make my day Alex, hope school has been going well
"New-age medicine for a nasal infection." Not only is he a British atheist and attending Oxford, but he is also now demonstrating good humor. The next Hitchens, perhaps?
No
The first Alex
check his nightstand for scotch!
And yet it was the church that founded Oxford university in first place.
Hitch spoke on his feet, often without notes, and loved toying with peoples' intellectual weaknesses - particularly phonies. Alex is too "nice and wholesome" and we want him to have a loooong life, besides he doesn't smoke or guzzle top-shelf booze.
"Hail the Messiah Alex" might catch on.
Oh no, Alex is much better than Hitchens.
Thank you.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
The answer is: God is willing, able, but simply does not sometimes. That does not mean he is evil. The nature of humankind is eternal, we have souls that last for eternity, which means whatever suffering we experience on Earth will amount to nothing in a future that goes on forever. If a child dies of cancer, especially if he is too young to think for himself, he will more than likely go to heaven. God is merciful, and says in the Bible that infants have no knowledge of good and evil.
He is both able and willing, and evil exists for reasons beyond our comprehension.
He responded to this video. I think he got you
whaddo you meme is a dishonest clown.
red greeny maybe so, but why did cosmicskeptic edit out WhatDoYouMeme’s arguments and say that he didn’t present anymore?
Isn’t that dishonest? If not please explain.
@@TrevorAndersen hes not going to explain, its just a fanboy unfortunately
@@TrevorAndersen ironicly the same guy made a video explaining people with the same attitude as red greeny
Him: I am telling you what god thinks.
Me: The bible is inconsistent. God supports slavery.
Him: God is unknowable.
@@ScuffedF1 Oh, please. When has it been debunked?
@@jhill4874 It's a lame topic to bring, Slavery in the bible isn't immoral.
@@chungusultimate You are just trying to justify something you believe in, thereby making you immoral.
@@jhill4874 You have no objective standard to dictate what is immoral and not.
plus slavery in the bible is different than what it was in the 14-19th century
@@chungusultimate I have myself and society to determine what's moral. I don't need some moldy book that encourages genocide. You have apparently neglected to look at all the parts in that book on slavery. You can beat your slaves is moral? The Bible is not an objective source for morality. If you think so, then I submit that you have an issue on what's moral and not.
"Prove that god does not exist" shift that burden of proof dude!
He does exist. I’ve felt gods presence and he cured me of my atheism. The day I enter heaven will be my greatest accomplishment. God loves you brother. He wants you back :)
@@MangoLemonaideFresh So basically you got a concussion and now you see angels everywhere.
@@MangoLemonaideFresh So your evidence of god(s) is a personal experience you had but won't share...? Should I find that persuasive?
Which god(s) are you referring to anyway? More than 75% of people find any particular god claim to be ridiculous or worse.
@Greg Pearcey I’m talking about the god of the bible, the one and only god. I used to be an atheist. I was very anti Christian. Then I prayed to god and I asked “Jesus if you are real please reveal yourself to me” I then felt an overwhelming and powerful sense of love, peace, confidence, respect and happiness. I began praying and did my research and it’s all true. I’ve prayed for things and I got what I wanted. Jesus is real
@John Cena I was an anti Christian and an atheist. I asked Jesus to show himself and prove to me his real. I felt an overwhelming sense of happiness, love and peace, I got prayers answered and study the bible every day. I feel gods presence everywhere and everyday. God loves us all
Very good video with sound logical arguments clearly presented.
John's argument is similar to: "It's possible that a car speeding towards me will brake or avoid me, therefore I'll just stand there and do nothing."
Basically, John's saying that God allows evil because "the ends justify the means". Anyone who has studied history knows this means God is a dictator
(Before the Age of Enlightenment, this expression was used to justify the powers of the kings in European Absolute Monarchies)
The reason God allows and permits evil to occurs is that He can bring a greater good out of the evils. Now, we might not be able to know or comprehend what that reason is. But, just because we don't know, that does not mean that there is no reason or that there probably isn't a reason. If an atheist were to argue like this, they would be arguing from ignorance, which is logically fallacious. But, we can claim that there is a reason because we already have good independent reasons to affirm God's existence and His perfect goodness. So, the problem of evil, both logical and evidential, don't work.
@@anonymousperson1904 if you can't comprehend the reason then why are you stating such a reason exists? your argument is actually ironically an argument from ignorance, it goes both ways, just because we don't know does not mean there is a reason either.
"we can claim that there is a reason because we already have good independent reasons to affirm God's existence and His perfect goodness" where is your proof then?
@@jamestor6700 "if you can't comprehend the reason then why are you stating such a reason exists?"
Because there are already good independent reasons for affirming the existence of God and His perfect goodness. So, while we may be ignorant about why a specific or certain evil has occurred, we can still have confidence and rational belief in the existence of God and His perfect goodness given the arguments in favour of classical theism.
"where is your proof then?"
The Aristotelian proof. Now, if you want me to present it, I would be happy to, but it would probably take us into a whole different direction. Will you admit that going from i don't know why God would let such-and-such an evil to occur, to therefore, God is evil or probably evil, or therefore, a good God probably doesn't exist, is arguing from ignorance?
Anonymous Person “the reason god allows and permits evil to occurs is that he can bring a greater good out of the evils.”
If you’re god couldn’t get rid of evil without allowing lesser evils, then he is no god.
@@godofnothing428 "If you’re god couldn’t get rid of evil without allowing lesser evils, then he is no god."
How so? The reason God cannot make a world completely devoid of all evil is because some greater goods presuppose evil. For example, there couldn't be forgiveness or compassion if there wasn't also cruelty or iniquity. Or that we couldn't acknowledge or recognize the significance and value of 'the good' without there being evil to contrast it with etc. But, this does not mean that God is not all-powerful since He is the source of all power. However, contradictions do not exist and so cannot limit His power when they don't exist in the first place. Now, since cruelty and iniquity are necessary preconditions for forgiveness and compassion, and since God wants to create a world with greater goods such as forgiveness and compassion, He cannot make a world completely devoid of evil when some greater goods presuppose evil, as that would be impossible.
Maybe there’s a god who created the universe just to watch human beings suffer.
...The sims
Wrong!
That's basically part of Gnostic beliefs as far as I'm aware of them.
@@deadrose5261 lol, I dont know why Theists ignore the possibility of simulation theory. The bible reads like a bad Civ/Sims game lol.
That’s called satanism. They think god is sometimes good, sometimes evil. This makes more sense but there is no evidence for that either.
Lame god: Hold down his child for the "greater good"
Cool god: instantly teleports the child and everyone else in a perfect heaven without suffering, FOREVER.
Perhaps proof that God is a sadist and not all good but all evil.
His son suffered why can’t we.
Amiga Amigo wow one person suffers, why can’t the rest of humanity, how incredibly evil.
@@amigaamigo5307 *his son suffered so we wouldn't have to* therefore the so called loving god would just instantly have us all in heaven .
@@amigaamigo5307 he suffered for a weekend whereas other suffer for the rest of their lives and then he got healed and we to an eterbal paradise.
Absolutely brilliant. I wasn't planning to watch the whole video but I got stuck.
I think it would be awesome for Alex and John to have a debate. Would be very interesting
Oh that guy’s reasoning, comparing taking his child to the dentist to a child suffering through cancer really angered me! It was exactly that, watching my son suffer through cancer, that brought me to the realization that IF God exists at all, he certainly doesn’t give a crap about what happens here on earth. There is no good reason to allow kids (or anyone) suffer so ruthlessly. This totally contradicts everything god is supposed to be. Brilliant job, as always, Alex!
I come here, when i need a shot of clearancy, calmness and logic. All delivered in a sweet, sweet package of humility, empathy and soft and clear language.
It's an anker to know, that there are people like you out there, Alex!
Can u imagine making the argument with a parent who's kids got cancer that tho we dont know why god allows kids to have cancer , he has his reasons. Just ridiculous rude and crazy. It supposes you know god better then others.
Hi Alex.
I'm coming from John's video here and I just wanted to say. Thank you for being respectful and for being well mannered with your opposition.
You speak well and clearly enjoy the challenges of philosophical, (or rather ethical) debate.
Good luck with your content and your conferences.
Watch John's second half of his response he just uploaded. Alex lied. He hid parts of Johns argument and watch what he does.
@@TheHeartOfTheHour1 He didnt lie, either you misunderstood something or you are dishonest here.
@billcarson818 Number 1. My comment is 3 years old. Number 2, I don't remember basically any of the context of this discussion, but if I'm not mistaken, Alex just gave a very vague version of John's argument. It was a bit more complex and a more charitable and transparent analysis would have been more excellent.
But I think I said he lied because it seemed quite intentional, the way certain crucial bits of John's argument were not mentioned
I watched several kids come out of the Jacobson building here at the Mayo Clinic. They come out with their little bald heads and hope in their lives. I didn't see any god there to help them. Actually, Mayo is fighting whatever god that gave them cancer in the first place.
God didnt create the world that way. He created it perfect, we are not supposed to even die.
The biblical world view is that we died spiritually when we decided we wanted to live independently of God and Satan became the ruler of this world. You cant have life unless you are rightly connected to the source of life.
Jesus claimed deity and He went around healing all those who were under the power of the devil Acts 10:38. When we look at Jesus we see what God is like.
Satan puts sickness on people. Not God. What Jesus did on the cross started to reverse the process of our spiritual death, preparing those who want His rule for His kingdom on the new earth (Rev 21). He is in the process of putting things right.
The new earth will be heaven because God rules there. He respects our free will and all those who dont want His rule, wont be there but the earth will have been restored to how it was originally created, only better.
@@JuliexSteadman But if God is omnipotent, satan's existence is impossible. Unless God wants satan to exist, and then we return to the problem of evil
@@JuliexSteadman I tried to get religious but I read the old testament. God drowned innocent children in the flood, ordered the death of every man, woman and child (1 Samuel 15). He caused wars where his soldiers suffered horrible deaths. That doesn't sound like a protecting and loving god to me. Why God would allow Satan to do all this damage to us makes no sense. Belief in a god like that is delusional thinking.
@@merlynschutterle7242 - Do you know why God did that to the Amalakites in 1 Samuel 15?
It would be good to have the references of the other things you are quoting. However while you focus on the Old Testament and a culture you have no concept of, so its easy to come to wrong conclusions about what was the lesser evil in that society.
In the meantime we can use this to avoid how we are living. Jesus makes it clear in the New Testament (covenant) that he requires a much higher standard than just external obedience to the commandments as he is preparing people for His kingdom (new earth) where everything will be put back to how it was originally created. He cannot afford to let anyone in who does not want to come under His lordship and He has laid out what that looks like in the Sermon on the mount, Matt 5 and the whole of the New Testament.
The bible is God revealing himself to man over time. Jesus is the final revelation as He claims to be part of and equal with God. When you see how Jesus acted in the NT, that is what God is like.
For myself, although being a christian can sometimes be difficult, overall I'm glad that I know Him to some extent, that I know His love for me personally and like the apostle Paul I want to know the height the width, the depth of His love for me, I hunger to go deeper with God. That the God of the whole universe sent part of Himself down here to die for me on a cross so I wouldnt have to spend eternity outside of His kingdom, and so I can be in relationship with Him is amazing to me.
@@abijo5052 - I believe God has allowed Satan to exist at the moment. We only have protection from Satan by submitting to God. The Jews in the OT were told that they would be blessed if they obeyed God and would suffer if they didnt Deut 28. Not because God is a meany but because He knows how he created us and what we are up against.
The NT says that Jesus overcame Satan by the cross. Colossians 2:15 & that Satan would not have crucified Him had he realised 1 Corinthians 2:8; It would seem that we had given Satan legal entitlement to rule this earth through our rebellion against God. Although God is stronger than Satan He had to legally buy us back otherwise that would have been theft.
Col 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
But still there is a mop up operation... Ephesians 6:12 says our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual rulers in the heavenly realm. We find it took Daniel 3 weeks for his prayer to be answered because Gods angel could not get past the prince of Persia (which must have been a demonic spirit in context). Daniel 10:12-13 & the angel has to fight his way out of there as well Daniel 10:20.
The bible also implies that sin deceives us so that we end up believing Satan rather than God. Interestingly Judas Iscariot kept on stealing money from the money bag and he couldnt see who Jesus was despite spending 3 years with Him, or it may be that he did know he was the messiah and tried to force his hand as the Jews expected God to bring his kingdom of righteousness onto earth now through the messiah.
Epicurus' trilemma
If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?
I feel like you gave your own rendition of it at the end of the video, but forgot to mention its name
Evil is our challenge to resist
Cubic Cube Evil is a By-product of good. The sun/light can exist without shadows, but shadows cannot exist without the sun/light. If evil didn't exist, how would/could you know the difference?
@@shaunsmith7651 Did you intend to say that good is a privative and evil is the substantial property? Because that is what you did say.
@@shaunsmith7651 Yes, in a world where there was no bad you wouldn't know what that is. I fail to see how that has anything to do with the problem of evil.
Phil The Logician why in this age does he allow Satan to be king?
Because if we can come out the other side with an inner light Satan loses
Satan has many on his payroll
I honestly think Alex gives this guy too much credit. You say "he knows what he's doing, he's no fool" but I think it's possible he's clueless.
Stephen Casey that dude is clueless, his channel is pure cancer
@@KC-py5vq worse than the cancer he's defending
@@franziska9260 Your cognitive bias is on full display here
@@ScuffedF1 The editing in Jon's two-part response wasn't any better (well, the first part wasn't), and while you could argue that CS didn't properly contextualize his argument, Jon didn't give him much of an answer as to why an all-loving God allows children to suffer diseases such as cancer.
I don't pay any attention to What Do You Meme's channel. He's... Really missing something. I don't get any benefits from watching it.
Good old Epicurus, still one of the best philosophies ever and my 'go to' when presented with the all loving god premise. Thanks Alex, good to have you back doing what you do so well.
I was diagnosed with a childhood cancer when I was 21 (a couple years ago). I am a Christian. I don't know why God allowed it to happen or why He gave it to me or whatever involvement He did or didn't have. All I know is somehow my condition brought my somewhat broken family back together again and I think if I had to do it over again for that result, I would. Much love to you all. Very interesting video.
It's great that you have a positive outlook, I hope you're doing well :)
@DJHart Thanks, dawg
I thought I was good at these, but Alex you're brilliant. I admire you very much, it is incredible how easily you debunk theists' arguments. Hope you visit Greece. Thanks.
God: *kills baby he just created*
God: My goals are beyond your understanding
Guppy666 haha ..right 🤣
Me: I'm gonna kick your ass you sociopath
God: I'm gonna spread a Corona virus to stop you and the future you made
Me: Boi, I wish you would 😡
God: I'm gonna win
Protagonist Luigi: Hurting innocent children is mercy to you? Your sick!
Me: Luigi I'll protect you. Just promise to delete God and finally show your powers
Protaganist Luigi: I did everything I could do I even took over the undefined universe ethically
Me: I understand
God: I'LL FIGHT YOU BOTH!
Protagonist Luigi: You won't get even a single touch out of me!
Me: Luigi now delete him!
Protagonist Luigi: *Deletes Jehovah*
Me: More than a feeling 😎
Protagonist Luigi: God will never bother anyone ever again. We won
@@philosophicalgamer2564 this was difficult
Lmao
"Don't worry officer it's for a new nasal medication."
As an atheist dad who has a 2 year old with Leukaemia, thank you.
Im so sorry you're going throught this. I hope at the end of the day you both will be okay and you and your son get through this.
@sara gage thank you! He’s doing really well!
My condolences, I hope for the best!
You are the first responsible of your child's suffering. Your child never asked to be born to begin with. But you chose to impose him a life of suffering in a World full of chaos and injustice. Just because of your ego and social conventions you decided to bring a sentient being into this life. I love children, that's why I will never have one. To live is to suffer and to breed is to perpetuate the suffering circle.
@@joharyrana779God literally asks that you create offspring. So therefore, you create life in accordance and yet you STILL lose.
Completely off topic but I really want to hear Alex with an American accent.
why?
I don't
That's an unusual thing to say.
Yikes
@@Brian.001 Because an American accent lowers perceived IQ by about 15 points. If his arguments still sound strong in a Mainer's accent, then he's onto something.
21:24 "If he could eliminate the greater suffering that makes the lesser suffering necessary, he'd do it".
The problem is trying to explain these things to religiously lobotomized people.
Gordon Sirek well I’m “a religious lobotomized” person and I’ve done my research and I know god exists. He cured me of my atheism and brought me to the truth which is through Jesus Christ. God loves you brother. Come back To him before it’s too late :)
Bradley Attersley “He cured my of my atheism.” Like atheism is some kind of disease
@@MangoLemonaideFresh I see you have not been cured of your delusions. Muslims are just as adamant in their belief that Allah exists. Both are beliefs in fairy tales with no credible evidence that supports either one.
@Thracian 90% of historians agree on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. My testimony pretty much proves that you are blinded by Satan.
@Jon Vester it’s sending people to hell. It’s a disease by Satan. The greatest deceiver. Don’t fall for his tricks. God loves you ❤️
So is dying in anyway bad in Christianity? If you die as a child, you go directly to heaven. Shouldnt parents pray for their kids to die in their childhood?
hello i like ur videos your opinions are respectful and different love it
Was taught that God rewards pain and suffering in heaven. I see this as sadistic behavior.
, This is so bad, Jesus made it clear the devil comes to rob, kill and destroy. Satan is the author of sin and death and Jesus died for our sins and by his stripes we are healed. When we have faith in Jesus and stand in the word we are healed. We fall victim of the devil when OUR faith is not in christ. We have to hold fast to the promises of Christ even Christians will fall victim if they don't hold fast because everything in Jesus is by faith alone. I know i can never get sick because i am covered in the blood of Jesus and by his stripes i am healed. When Jesus came to Earth his ministry was healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out devils so don't you get it? Jesus wants us free from sickness, devils and death. Please read the bible for yourself there is NO reason someone standing on the promises of Christ should be sick AT ALL.
One of the worst experiences of physical suffering I've had is, at age 27, having dental calculus removed for the first time. After having multiple sharp hooks pulling my gums for an hour, I know what it is like to meet the Cenobites... Thanks God!
YES PLEASE DO MORE OF THESE I LOVE THEM SO MUCH
There is another problem with the argument that evil may somehow be justified, which is that on the assumption that if God has good reasons to allow suffering, it would be pernicious for us to attempt to alleviate suffering, as that would be interfering with God's perfectly just plan. The perverse conclusion which follows from this is that attempting to correct any form of suffering or injustice we encounter would, on the theist's view, be morally wrong.
An argument that is often(?) made is that the existence of evil allows us to create good, and therefore allows spiritual growth, and therefore allows God to judge us and ultimately allow us in to paradise. "Evil exists for a reason" doesn't mean that reason entails it being allowed to continue existing - food exists for a reason, for us to destroy it :)
@@Lucaazade Yes, that's one of the oldest attempts to solve the problem of evil. But according to that view, evil must on some level be good or desirable, since only through the existence of evil is it possible to achieve spiritual growth. What this implies is that it would be wrong for us to prevent such spiritual growth by eliminating evil. In fact, it may even be the case that creating evil is actually morally commendable because it would result in so much more opportunities for spiritual growth.
But the perverse conclusion you give only follows from a perverse premise that God uses *only* suffering and injustice to accomplish his plan, and never good things.
@@MatthewFearnley How does my conclusion rely on the premise that God uses *only* suffering and injustice to accomplish his plan?
@@wardandrew23412 hmm, from my perspective, the answer to your question seems trivial, so maybe I’ve misunderstood what you’re saying.
But I’ll give my reasoning anyway, and maybe we’ll understand each other better after that..
If you’re saying that our attempts to alleviate suffering disrupt God’s plan, then it must be that his plan doesn’t or can’t make use of good acts like this.
Brilliantly explained. I was with you for every sentence.
Wife: Honey my sinuses are acting up again.
Husband: Aww, come let me punch you in the face sweetie.
17:34 - 19:13 Brilliant observation of an infinite regress implicit in the typical theist counter-argument!
19:29 - 19:39 That's probably the first time I've heard this particular argument given by someone else besides me! Maybe I'm just not listening to the right people, but this line of reasoning seems like a very obvious and glaring problem that is nevertheless rarely if ever used in refuting theodicy. It's fairly straightforward. The more powerful a moral agent is, the narrower and more contrived the circumstances must be in order for any greater good to compel the commission of some lesser evil. We would expect Superman or the Flash to react differently to the Trolley Problem than an ordinary human. If we extrapolate this to the infinite power that God supposedly has, we immediately realize that no greater good could ever force his hand to commit a lesser evil. He could always find a way to achieve the greater good without any lesser evil, and to argue otherwise would contradict the premise of omnipotence. I'm surprised this rebuttal isn't far more popular than it seems to be!
That is a biiiiiiiig bottle of whiskey there Alex. Nevermind the books, you got some work to do!
The existence of evil negates or disproves the existence of an all-loving all-powerful God. It does not negate or disprove the existence of a God.
I think it would also be helpful to view this argument from a different angle. Let's hypothetically assume God was *evil* instead of good and wanted nothing but *evil* for us, would he allow good to exist as a means to reinforce the evil (just as theists claim God allows evil to exist to achieve a greater good)? How would this even work? Furthermore, if we did conclude that it was possible that an evil God could use good as a means to strengthen the evil engraved in his divine plan, how could we distinguish the *Good God whom utilises evil* from the *Evil God who utilises good* ?
Yeahnah Atheist I'm quite curious on how would theists respond to this. Well I'm still debating with one while using this as a small part of my arguments, still waiting for his/her answer.
@@sylicone6952 Yeah me too, I've also posted a similar comment to this one on wym's response video in attempt to get responses. Would be interested to hear if you end up getting any.
Yeahnah Atheist I've gotten a response from him/her. That person said that he/she knows that god is good by using "Natural Moral Law Theory" (which he/she claims that is true), and he/she also mentioned that I need to know Platonic, Aristotelian, and Scholastic philosophies. I would still need to somehow confirm if his/her claims are proven to be true. Well I've asked him/her about how did he/she know that those claims are true but it seems like he/she hasn't read that part since my replies to his/her comments are quite long and he/she might have done something like assuming that my replies are only like "present the proof of your god".
Then he/she has replied with the contents of the Aristotelian "Proof", the contents are like "Change occurs in reality, and in order to have change, there must be an actualizer to actualizes the potential of that change" to "but we can't have infinite actualizers so we have the unactualized actualizer, and we call that god".
Well this argument rings a bell. If my memory serves right, Rationality Rules has shown some or maybe all flaws of this argument. Well I'll search for other points from other people (if there are) so that I can state atleast some more problems of the Aristotelian "proof" other than only RR's points (if there are).
Well I'm gonna question him/her again after I've gotten the genersl ideas of her claims.
Well have you gotten any responses from other people at the time that you've read this comment?
Well now I'm gonna find some comments to respond to.
@@sylicone6952 Yeah finally got one on my other comment, yet to respond to it though.
@fynes leigh Likeable/dislikable, pleasurable/displeasurable, good/evil, what difference does it make exactly? Using different labels doesn't change my point.
"A long way to go before it's even naive." Brilliant - I'm stealing that!
Very Hitchens-esque
You'll be speaking in London, Winchester and oh yeah ISRAEL!!?
It follows logically
Israel? To tell Jews there was no god so get out and go back to Europe?
That’ll go well
Fascinating video. Keep up the great work.
Well said Alex! Also another good video about this same idea is "God favors Evil" by Darkmatter 2525
I urge people to watch Johns original video so you can understand and question why cosmicskeptic chose to not include the clips that would ruin the entire argument cosmicskeptic is proposing.
Rather than wasting the time.. you could have put forward the magic points here itself... If there were any.
I could watch these videos all day
“What we call God depends upon our tribe, Clark Jo. Because God is tribal. God takes sides. No man in the sky intervened when I was a boy to deliver me from daddy’s fist and abominations. I’ve figured it out way back, if God is all powerful, He cannot be all good. And if He is all good, then He cannot be all powerful. And neither can you be.”
- Lex Luthor
I’m a baptist Christian but I am very attracted to your videos. Very interesting to watch and help me question things and learn more about atheism and about my religion
Excellent as always, Alex! Please, please, come and speak in the Southern Bible Belt of the USA. We need you here. Pleeeease!
Don't we ever! I'm in SE TN myself. Oft times I think of starting an atheist movement here. As sure as I do, though, some lot of asshats or another, probably church folk, will start vandalizing churches and the like, and guess who'll get the blame....
@@n1ghtmar3mach1n3 I'm not far from you! I don't think it's safe to start an atheist movement. Not here, anyway.
@@Soapandwater6 You've got a valid point. Now just isn't the time.
Just wear your body armour, stay out of Texas and travel in a Pope Mobile.
@@Longtack55 Ha, good advice!
missed this type of videos
Brilliant video, always a pleasure watching them.
"it's part of god's plan" who are we to question a plan that forces children to suffer and die horribly?
Once I been told I can't question something, I'm out!
Not everything that happens is God's will. Do you seriously think God wishes kids to get cancer? Obviously not, all this suffering is occuring because it's the natural flow of life, this world is corrupted and it's no wonder so many sufferings occur here, in the new earth and heaven former things will pass away, so it's really trivial if you think about it.
@@chungusultimate so why the fuck in the world we have also to suffer in this life, can't we just pass the mercyless part?
And then the obvious next question
Why you Dont hate God for this reason
@@chungusultimate and also this natural flow is created by God by your perspective so does it means that God pretty suck at his job
He is the creatlr
He knows everything about the universe because he created it
But the universe is not perfect
So God is inable to create perfect thing so God is not perfect at all
So why do we have to pray him even if he would exist
@@DarthVaderfr the world was perfect at once, but sin entered and brought ruin to the world
This is the doctrine of the fall of mankind
It is kind of funny how he states that he couldn't explain the necessity of holding them down to his kid. So if we apply the same standard to God it would mean that God either doesn't want to explain it to us or he can't. Both contradict either the all loving or the all powerful.
Ok so ‘What do you meme’ already did a response to this .
My bad, misunderstood the context here lol.
@Rob Lowe also love how he sits in front of a fucking bookcase to give dumb people the impression that he's smart. Pathetic. Fooled you apparently
@James Hitch. "Debunk what he said or it was valid." That's not how argumentation works you dumb fuck. First of all, this video is literally a critical response ("DeBuNk") of his argument, so it's already been done. But if you wanna rehash, this guy uses a fucking example of his kid going to the dentist to basically say, "we don't understand the greater good." Yeah, I'll bet if his 2-year old got raped and murdered, he wouldn't say "yep, all part of God's plan!" Now please justify how a loving god would allow child rape and murder - how does he decide who gets raped and who doesn't? It's a fucking cop out to say, "the lord works in mysterious ways." Why would you want to worship someone who watches a child get raped and does nothing?? If the rapist turns around and gets saved, there's no punishment from god! Whereas PEOPLE are the ones with the justice system. There's no evidence of a god to begin with, and it falls apart the second you examine any argument
@James Hitch. Also I''m sorry that you're too stupid to understand how UA-camrs use props to influence and manipulate their viewers
@James Hitch. lol you are so fucking dumb. *Validation of an argument works not by proving it to be true but by showing it cant be proven invalid. If you cant give a rebuttal its valid.* Again, NO, that's not how it works, dipshit. You don't understand basic argumentation. Validity describes the structure of an argument, it has nothing to do with truth. A valid argument can have false premises and therefore a false conclusion. *The punishment is Hell* Dude I literally fucking addressed this! He won't go to hell if he turns around and gets saved. Whereas an atheist who lives a good life goes to hell for eternity simply for not believing! *What plan for who is raped. You're thinking a plan that is individualistic not n bigger scale.* I FUCKING CALLED IT. This is essentially "the lord works in mysterious ways" - a pathetic cop-out and attempt to dodge the question. *Why would God stop all suffering that would require there be no free will* What the fuck does drought/starvation or eyeball-eating parasites have to do with free will? That suffering could easily be spared and not effect free will. *devices in your head* go fuck yourself dude, not even going to address that blatant straw man. *there's no evidence of many things so by your logic it doesn't exist* You're deliberately being a dishonest cunt at this point. Where did I say "existence requires evidence"??? If you had actually asked instead of jumping to conclusions, my point is that belief should be based on evidence. There very well may be a diamond the size of my head on Mars, but the time to believe it is when there's EVIDENCE FOR IT. Same for a god. You're making all of these bat shit truth claims (i.e." there IS a diamond on Mars," or "there is a god.") that you can't back up. I didn't say a god doesn't exist. I said there's no evidence that one does, and the burden of proof lies with the retard making the truth claims (YOU)
I love that you not only rebuttle People but also explain how and why and teach things! It's really helpful as I'm writing an argumentative essay on why Believing in God can make one blind to the world and thus Pascal's wager is pointless and a waste of time
A CosmicSkeptic video *and* 2 Holy Koolaid videos, in 1 day? God Bless this day.