Excellent interview. I'd like to add an important word: Gonzo. Jon Stewart, John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, Nish Kumar, Samantha Bee, and the rest of them. These are Gonzo journalists. And given the history of gonzo being used to speak truth to power (and the ways in which comedians have spoken the truth at times when traditional journalists have failed to) I think it's important to ascribe that term to them. They have certainly earned it.
We're not talking about the Muppet? Who are we talking about? I don't know, and I want to know. There are some dots I'm not connecting. @@IliyaMoroumetz
@@josh0g gonzo is an adjective. From the dictionary: Using an exaggerated, highly subjective style, as in journalism. Using an unconventional, exaggerated and highly subjective style, often when the reporter is part of the story.
If you watched Jon Stewart from the beginning and often repeated episodes as I did, then you probably noticed his good and trustworthy qualities. He was very devent with interviewees he disagreed with, and the extended interview segments getting uploaded to the Web came from his willingness to let his guests express their points of view instead of cutting them off. He also supported the careers of people who worked for him which is a sign of an excellent character.
I highly recommend "Superpower" a documentary about the war in Ukraine by Sean Penn. It becomes clear that Zelinsky's past as a comedian is essential to his ability to lead in such dark times.
I love Jon Stewart and his activism. To me, Trevor Noah really opened up my eyes in his comedic coverage of world events, versus Jon's more US focus. When putting the US into the mix of the world, you realize how privileged we are and how much more we whine.
Whenever anything from US media enters my feed it is ALWAYS about Trump or Republicans vs Democrats. Cmon guys, politics is only part of what’s going on, get a grip!
I don't know that this is a recent phenomenon. I think satirists have been taken seriously a long time - there's an unbroken line from Twain to today. I'd say that the internet may have brought it to the masses - but both Mark Twain and Will Rogers were kinda populist sensations, very much like Stewart - who one the Twain award.
This point I think points to the US centric convoy here. Satirists were not really considered low brow either. Play theory is literally about peer selection. All peers had their comedy - one was definitely informed differently. Oscar Wilde plays were outrageously funny. It's why punching down wasn't funny. Literally because peers had different levels in society. The US I think just had fewer opportunities for the development of the other arts do bully pulpit humoured slapstick style was there era of development in this art form. Young country.
I was in my 30s when I started watching Jon Stewart. I quickly became a viewer who never missed an episode. Then TDS led me to John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, and Trevor Noah. My current favorites are John Oliver and Seth Meyers. I watch Colbert's monologue but not always his guests. One thing I was glad about was when Jon Stewart was able to admit that he was wrong. It did take him a bit (too long), but he did get there. Which is likely why he picked Trevor Noah to replace him. And this is why I'm not happy about the Chapelle issue. He has not opened himself to the idea that he might be wrong. He's just doubling down and his supporters are just supporting him louder. I have many people who I love who are trans and I will always use my voice to defend the community.
Apple thinking they can tell Jon Stewart of all people to align with company views is utterly laughable. They knew he would walk with that type of line. At this point in his career he is way way way past that bullshit
This was very enlightening. I guess I never thought about comedy on a deeper level other than it made me laugh or think about things in a different way. It really is a much needed part of our lives. We need to get back to talking with each other. Thank you for sharing this show.
Art is art. Commercialization is another thing. At that point the artist is selling a product and feedback on a product is to be expected. I feel like Jon Stewart is a lot more than just an artist tho. Not only has he highlighted the suffering of fellow Americans on multiple platforms, he has done the work to bring about change in their lives, particularly what he did for 9/11 first responders. He’s a hero of mine. ❤
This conversation was interesting and I know you can't talk about everything in an hour, but after awhile I got really distracted by the almost total absence of women as comedians and audience members and/or female perspectives. I hope the book at least mentions questions like whether women and men have any clear differences in what they find funny and unfunny, why they watch it, etc.,etc. As I said, you can't cover everything, but this was very conspicuous by its absence. Especially if the focus is the last 30 years, when women are supposedly not invisible anymore.
It’s really interesting the way comedy has changed in a really short time. Comedy has seemed kind of low-brow for generations, whereas drama has been more “cultured,” and I’m really glad that’s changing. Comedy is really important in how we understand the world and each other
Cruelty is not funny. Don't think Trump understands WHY his rallies laugh either. He looks to the left for his people (Jason Miller's) to record for next speech.
@DanWasAlreadyHere Who are you referring to? I tried to search for them, but I didn't find anything that fit what you said. (I found plenty of other sad and unjust cases where people who are U.S. citizens or green card holders recieved threats of deportation or other punishments. But none who fit your description). Thanks! 🙂
I also tie the success of The daily Show and subsequent copycats like the John Oliver show to the rise of the "explainer" format in news media, which also happened a lot in written articles on the internet i.e.Vox, on shows like Adam ruins everything, etc. Maybe it's because I was young enough when Jon Stewart became popular that this was just the first example I encountered, but I think that format became very popular thanks to him. Those others have refined it since. Instead of focusing just on interviews, or separating editorial from hard news, they produced long form pieces that Dove deep into a specific topic and covered both the facts and shined a light on why those facts create a problem. The fact that so many of those shows do so in a comedy format is only one part of why i like them. Compare that to something like 60 minutes and I don't think I've ever felt that 60 minutes was tackling the same kinds of issues with the same amount of useful information.
This discussion is very US centric. In the UK and i would argue Australia, comedy has been a tool of political and social expression for decades as part of mass media. On TV and musical comedy. The US took a while to move past slapstick and into satire.
I'm glad you clarified this, because as a Brit listening to the conversation, the first several minutes were basically nonsense 😅. I was very confused about what I was missing.
I'm American and found the discussion odd, as well, but then again...I'm old (a bit over 50). =o) There has been social commentary (which includes politics) in US comedy for a very long time. Just a few examples - George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Whoopi Goldberg. This is going to make me sound old, too, but I find this quite a bit with conversations with younger people - it often seems that things don't exist before "their time." I had older than average parents, so maybe I had a different history but I learned about things that were older than when I was alive.
@@evrywmn67it goes back farther. Mark Twain, Will Rogers, The Smothers Bros (who actually were cancelled because of their political satire) Rowan & Martin's Laugh In. Lenny Bruce & George Carlin who were both also targeted for their "profanity' as a means of censorship(being arrested during a show). The Daily Show was mocking mainstream news coverage (Fox, CNN, etc) as much as actual politics/politicians. It's been around for a while just not on network tv.
It feels like these non-shavers haven't heard of music hall theatre, Shakespeare, Ancient Greece, the people having sex in the Bayeux Tapestry, the Puritans, Monty Python, Oscar Wilde, Blackadder and Red Dwarf. That's not even scratching the surface. Which is amusing because they seem to think it comes from our prehistoric ancestors (obviously true) but then think their generation is special. Weird. We're none of us special. None of us. Especially not people people who think they're special who are the least remarkable people who ever exist.
Comedy is a very broad subject and the book seems to be following the comic philosophers of our time. Don't forget that there is so much more. The satirists have done so much to influence public opinion and then there's the Randy Rainbow type of musical satire that is so entertaining that people watch it again and again. I think he has done a lot to influence political opinion.
Jon Favreau and Crooked Media has to be the hardest working podcasters out there! Maybe Meidas Touch competes! Thank you guys. So appreciate the live stage shows🤗
I value Jon's perspective but I would suggest that in history comedy is usually a reaction to a collapsing political system as oppose the inverse causal relationship.
just curious on where you're getting this notion from? i love comedy but broadcast television is about as old as the beginning of the downturn in this country, and i cant think of what you'd be referring to in a historical context... there was shakespeare centuries ago but thats way different than the stand up/sitcom styles of today (which is all ive known as a 38 year old), and then i guess there were court jesters in feudal societies? what real history is there that gives you this notion? Not trolling ya, just confused as to how you came to that conclusion
@@Pro-DemocraticAdvocate I don't know that the OP is correct, but Voltaire would come to mind as an example they could use. The French monarchy wasn't doing all that will in the 1700's.
@@SilortheBlade Yeah, I know nothing about french society really and their general attitudes , besides the major historical intertwining with the US and the world wars and some napoleonic stuff.. but I'm definitely a comedy lover and student of history and the futhest back truly "political comedy" I can think of is like Lenny Bruce, and George Carlin after him. Some people are super sensitive when you reply with somr passive aggressive shit so if I disagree I try to soften the blow a little bit because I really wanna know how they came to believe that, as it just seems really out of place to me
I had to self-diagnose when he said that comedians become a trusted news source, because i came to PSA for the DeSantis dunking and now i regularly listen to you guys and do trust what you say. Maybe i should take a step back?...
As a gay, disabled man, I know what it's like to have a comedian say things that are offensive to me. I've been pissed off, yet as a former standup myself, I firmly believe that you can make a good joke on any topic. Any topic. It's all about the way you approach it. I always tried to write my material like I was putting my arm around the audeience's shoulders and say "Let me show you something." rather than "Here are stupid things straight peope do." And it worked! Peope I never expected would like my act would make a point of complimenting me. But if you never offend anyone, you're not doing interesting or smart material. And it's ridiculpus to tailor your act to the most delicate flowers in the room. I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool liberalwho still thinks people on the left need to toughen up
A comedian without the first impulse that getting a laugh is great is not a comedian. Self-censorship may be humane, prudent, or necessary, but it comes second.
@@PhilipMuench-w6c IT's all about tiptoeing on the line. You will cross it at times, but you need to learn from that. Too many big comedians seem to forget that and get mad at the audience for not finding it funny.
My own personal preference (which doesn't have to be anyone else's opinion) is that whatever group the joke is about, the joke should be deep enough and smart enough to make people in that group laugh. It should be something they relate to, rather than being a surface level cheap jab. If that's what you're doing you can make jokes about anyone, you just have to put the work in. Anyone is, of course, allowed to disagree and feel differently! That's just my opinion.
On the Dave Chappelle discussion, it made me think of Ricky Gervais as well. Very talented comedian who leans too much on lazy, bullying jokes that just... aren't as good.
Comedy is a communal experience. In some cases, it can not only coalesce the community of those sharing similar views. But, it can also bring those with differing views together at least momentarily by helping us see the error in our own views or “tribe” and relieve some pressure we have built up from our tendency to relate exclusively to our own tribe. My son and I always looked forward to watching The Problem together. But, we are confident Jon Stewart will find a better path. Or Apple will see the error of their ways.
I'm just at the start of the video right now, but I want to pitch Jon Stewart as (a) the most influential comedian of all time and (b) one of the most influential media personalities of all time. There wasn't anything like The Daily Show before The Daily Show, as far as I know. In-depth stories, topical news, and politics, all told with a visible liberal slant that, while informing some of the choices made, didn't detract from the truth of the information. And it was all genuinely funny; it was the funniest show on TV for a long time. Network news is boring and childishly oversimplified; most "political" shows are panel shout-fests or 14 people each getting a ten second hit. Most of MSNBC and all of Fox is aggressively slanted trash. CNN is mostly unwatchable with a couple of good hosts. The good news shows are either podcasts _(thanks Crooked Media!)_ or TDS-style news/comedy. TDS, their many good correspondents, and _especially_ Jon Stewart made the mold. What other comedian can claim anything even remotely like that? Aristophanes? Shakespeare? And how many people in any form of media can say they created the dominant model for 3 decades in any genre? Maybe 5? Jon Stewart is by far the greatest comedian of my lifetime, and maybe the most important ever. He's, surprisingly, the Walter Cronkite of this generation - someone that everyone knows is telling the truth, at least as he sees it; even Fox didn't generally take issue with his information, only his tone or slant. He's only burnished his credentials since he left, with his non-partisan political activism and his recent fight with Apple. I watched maybe one or two episodes of his MTV show, and I don't think anyone who watched that saw this coming.
Something that we need to recognize as part of our history and culture is the part comedy has played in enforcing harmful stereotypes and ideals. The biggest difference is that now when someone makes the equivalence of a sambo joke we can say, "I do not think this is funny and I believe that it is actually harmful." So many modern comedians (many are ones that I love and patronize) have gotten so pee their pants scared of someone saying that on the internet it's a little sad. Their predecessors were jailed for using profanity, female comedians risked rape, black comedians risked violence and death while also being cut out of venues and were forced to walk in the rear while headlining... and these people are scared of a mean tweet?!?
Jesse was right about comedy being subjective. What I find funny, others don't and vice versa. That's just people. I've posted humourous memes and some of them are a hit with 1000s of likes and others fall flat. Some jokes resonate and others don't. (and I like Alec Baldwin's Trump)
As you covered the trust in the news and its transference to comedians, I think one of those the insights comedians bring to light are universal truths, e.g. George Carlin. Comedy should always punch up, when it kicks down, it doesn't hold up (Murphy, Chappelle) Finally one of the most basic qualities of good comedy in incongruity, and almost nothing is more that, than politics.
This is a fascinating analysis - esp. since I think we're about the same age, so it's really interesting to hear someone analyze the way I've / we've taken in information has been shaped
For the last question about comedy and the pandemic: Inside. That special hit everyone who watched it some type of way and I STILL can’t entirely explain what it did and why, but it worked.
I found the show very funny as a child. I am sure I would find a few sketches funny today. But it was the same or similar gag every time, and that gets stale after a while.
This hypothesis that Millenials are especially into comedy doesn’t match my experience. I am Gen X with lots of friend of both Gen X and Millenial age. All my Gen X friends grew up listening to comedy albums (Bill Cosby, Steve Martin, George Carlin) and watched tons of stand up in the MTV boom of comedy. My millenial friends mostly associate comedy with meme gifs and don’t know many comedians at all.
@@SilortheBlade True for my contribution - I am also Gen X and grew up listening to comedy albums, then DVDs later - Pryor always has to be the top of that list - the others , Eddie Murphy certainly, Dangerfield and his young comedians - were gold. the Millenials that I know were much like he said - they were really into John Stewart and the daily show - that is where they consumed news / what was happening in their world. I would watch at times but always was very clear it was entertainment. No question my favorite was Colbert
I think that people who are interested in stand up are interested in stand up regardless of age. I love watching comedians, but not everyone does. Just like every other form of entertainment, it's a matter of taste.
Im a 53yr old woman from Australia i have voted left in EVERY ELECTION since 1988. ❤ Trevor Noah, John Oliver, Jon Stewart but I also ❤ Bill Burr, Conan, Triumph the insulting dog. Bugs Bunny, Family Guy. Im 2nd generation southern italian in Australia im called a Dago in Italy im called Torrone, because "southern italians have darker skin than the north. Life is complex, hard, traumatic please leave me comedy. Sometimes we just want 2 laugh @ a fart joke
If The Daily Show made people distrust politics it was only because the politics was not trustworthy. I'm not sure we can criticise TDS for being right. Unless of course Saddam really did have WMDs and I just missed it...
An interesting point is where Daily Show started. Craig Kilborn was very much a product of "The Man Show" era. but it paved the way for Stewart and Oliver. baby steps i quess
@@mangos2888 Interesting. Just revisited. At least they noticed. At 6:44 Jesse picked up the mic and the knocking was gone. My explaination is that you guys are listening on phone speaker with no bass. Otherwise I cannot imagine how to not hear that. Anyways, good content as always.
So confused... what is the definition of comedy here? Arent some of the greatest and most respected authors comedians? Isnt sattitire a form of comedy? It sounds like the only idea here is sketch comedy, which has also been well respected since the inception of television. This clearly doesnt refer to political comedy as that has been around since antiquity. Would love to start all of these topics with a definition of what you are talking about
The "defensive" part of why people grow attached to comedic personalities-- even when they are playing to the shock-- is because it is extrinsic feedback to create consensus and trust with an audience. If we only had the capacity to measure trust (and over time, integrity) based on factual information, cults of personality wouldn't exist; instead, we give people benefit of the doubt because it allows us to be more socialable with others; it's also tied to our state of suggestion and to our sense of catharsis (sometimes why artists will mention art as being more "true than real".) It's also why hate is described as a carnal sensory input, and is even why monsters in horror media are not only romanticized but are even viewed as sympathetic (whether it be in familiarization with tragedy or through the catharsis of coming to better terms with our insecurities-- the body horrors of aging, disability and injury, being able to reflect on one's capacity of doing "evil" things, and the anxieties of uncertainties, irrational or not.)
TL;DR - The thrill makes you feel alive, and the defensiveness and the consensus you feel in a state of suggestion give you more sense of tangibility of what is real, even when it isn't necessarily true. P.S., Similar cerebral effects are part of why Gandhi used to weave his own clothing-- not only was it to reduce dependence on foreign-made clothing, but it helped him familiarize with his own sense of identity by ritually practicing a practice with high tangibility input. The opposite of tangibility input practices can be viewed in things like solitary confinement-- we lose our sense of identity when we lose the independent capacity to sense things.
as a non-tweeter its hard to believe that the world needs to be understood through what happens on that platform in order to understand what happens IRL.
This is confirmation bias. Somebody who takes Comedians "seriously", or wants to take them "seriously" thinks Comedians are "serious". It's nonsense. It's your already established value system that attracts you to certain Comics. In essence, Comedians are echo chambers. Comedians have no effect on the world - except to make us laugh. A good thing in and of itself, but nothing more. P.S. This dude is ignorant of 80's UK Comedians if he thinks they were all "masculine".
I think in terms of GenX comedy, you have to look at Dennis Miller's evolution from SNL to post-9/11. His heel turn into right- wing comedy after that just bewildered a lot of former fans.
Some people work well in a specific role. Miller was funny on the "news" segment on SNL. You didn't see him in anything else really. When he left, turns out he wasn't as funny (although I remember liking his HBO show whenever that was). SO at that point, he needs to do something to make him relevant. So he finds a niche and doubles down on it. NO idea if that reflects his actual politics or not, but that audience buys tickets to his shows, and that is the most important thing.
@@SilortheBlade I used to watch his HBO show every week, but most of my 90s TV diet was comedy (the original Daily Show with Craig Kilbornn, Bill Maher's various Politically Incorrect, etc. ) and I liked Dennis Miller so much I saw Bordello of Blood in the theaters! So of all the swings to the right, Dennis Miller was the only one I found surprising. Maher was always heading that direction, imo, but Miller really made a U- turn drastically. And he stopped being funny altogether. It made me sad in a way other comedians changes haven't.
Thre's some unfortunate apologia in here. Dave Chapelle does not think he's helping when he spreads dangerous hate speech about trans people. He thinks he's hurting those who intend to hurt him. He's punching down pure and simple, because he feels threatened. There are *possible* sets that talk about these issues in a way that ride a line and will be seen differently (justifiably) by different groups. That example ain't it.
I think this is an example where both sides are assuming the worst in each other. There is about as much evidence for thinking that Chapelle intended hurt with his trans jokes as there is justification for Chapelle thinking that trans people just need to toughen up and learn to take a joke, which is to say neither position is fair to the other. Jon is right, Chapelle's trans bit seemed more a self righteous defensive justification than humor, which makes it more cringey than funny to me. And both sides could stand to lighten up a bit, and not assume the worst of the other.
I would say that there IS a current strong culture to reflect “bro”ness or maleness. It’s hip hop, one of the dominant music genres in the world. But the sides feel extreme, with hip hop representing extreme male violence, and the Barbie/taylor swift representing saccharine femininity. Idk. Wish femininity could be associated more with genius’s like Heddy Lamar, rather than “vulnerability” and I wish masculinity could be more nuanced as well. But it feels like it’s going in the wrong direction.
🎉Have you checked out the UK artist Ren? His 9 minute art music video is amazing. Watch all the way until the end. He has a variety of genres from rap to indie to instrumental. There is a life backstory that feeds his music and drive. His subjects are sometimes serious re mental health, illness, capitalism, etc. He is brilliant.
Excellent interview. I'd like to add an important word: Gonzo. Jon Stewart, John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, Nish Kumar, Samantha Bee, and the rest of them. These are Gonzo journalists. And given the history of gonzo being used to speak truth to power (and the ways in which comedians have spoken the truth at times when traditional journalists have failed to) I think it's important to ascribe that term to them. They have certainly earned it.
For a moment there, I thought you were also referring to Gonzo the Muppet along with the other comedians you were referring to. XD
We're not talking about the Muppet? Who are we talking about? I don't know, and I want to know. There are some dots I'm not connecting. @@IliyaMoroumetz
Samantha Bee omg I miss her
@@josh0g gonzo is an adjective.
From the dictionary:
Using an exaggerated, highly subjective style, as in journalism.
Using an unconventional, exaggerated and highly subjective style, often when the reporter is part of the story.
Roy Wood, Jr. is above all others when it comes to comedy that balances trust, hope, critical thinking, skepticism, joy, and connection.
If you watched Jon Stewart from the beginning and often repeated episodes as I did, then you probably noticed his good and trustworthy qualities. He was very devent with interviewees he disagreed with, and the extended interview segments getting uploaded to the Web came from his willingness to let his guests express their points of view instead of cutting them off. He also supported the careers of people who worked for him which is a sign of an excellent character.
I started with daily show in college . Love John and Trevor even though Craig Kilbourne the 1st host I think
1995 or 6
I found this in an unrelated comment section:
"How do you create a small social media company?
You get Elon Musk to buy a really big one."
I kept waiting for you to mention how a former comedian is actually leading and defending his nation against a tyrant right now.
🙏🏻🇺🇸⚖️🗽🇺🇦💙
@bennyrex6369 Al Franken was a great Senator AND comedian.
I highly recommend "Superpower" a documentary about the war in Ukraine by Sean Penn. It becomes clear that Zelinsky's past as a comedian is essential to his ability to lead in such dark times.
They missed an opportunity to highlight him.
Zelensky's show was quite good. I watched the first few seasons until he became President, then it got more serious. Irony or coincidence?
I love Jon Stewart and his activism. To me, Trevor Noah really opened up my eyes in his comedic coverage of world events, versus Jon's more US focus. When putting the US into the mix of the world, you realize how privileged we are and how much more we whine.
Whenever anything from US media enters my feed it is ALWAYS about Trump or Republicans vs Democrats. Cmon guys, politics is only part of what’s going on, get a grip!
100%. I still prefer John's style of comedy, but Trevor is also hilarious and overall, I appreciated his global view more than John's comedy.
Comedians, ESPECIALLY GOOD ONES, are known to be more Emotional Intelligent.
Trevor Noah TRIED to make a difference. He is greatly missed.
@@ryukoli4707 Many also suffer for their art and have experienced depression and emotional pain...it's a comedians super power,
I don't know that this is a recent phenomenon. I think satirists have been taken seriously a long time - there's an unbroken line from Twain to today. I'd say that the internet may have brought it to the masses - but both Mark Twain and Will Rogers were kinda populist sensations, very much like Stewart - who one the Twain award.
This point I think points to the US centric convoy here. Satirists were not really considered low brow either. Play theory is literally about peer selection. All peers had their comedy - one was definitely informed differently. Oscar Wilde plays were outrageously funny.
It's why punching down wasn't funny. Literally because peers had different levels in society. The US I think just had fewer opportunities for the development of the other arts do bully pulpit humoured slapstick style was there era of development in this art form. Young country.
I was in my 30s when I started watching Jon Stewart. I quickly became a viewer who never missed an episode. Then TDS led me to John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, and Trevor Noah. My current favorites are John Oliver and Seth Meyers. I watch Colbert's monologue but not always his guests. One thing I was glad about was when Jon Stewart was able to admit that he was wrong. It did take him a bit (too long), but he did get there. Which is likely why he picked Trevor Noah to replace him. And this is why I'm not happy about the Chapelle issue. He has not opened himself to the idea that he might be wrong. He's just doubling down and his supporters are just supporting him louder. I have many people who I love who are trans and I will always use my voice to defend the community.
Didn’t know how much I needed to hear something like this today. Thank you ❤❤❤❤
@@vitaharvey5332 I’m glad. ❤️ You’re not alone. I’ll do what I can to make this world better.
Apple thinking they can tell Jon Stewart of all people to align with company views is utterly laughable. They knew he would walk with that type of line. At this point in his career he is way way way past that bullshit
Thanks!
This was very enlightening. I guess I never thought about comedy on a deeper level other than it made me laugh or think about things in a different way. It really is a much needed part of our lives. We need to get back to talking with each other. Thank you for sharing this show.
Comedy is a communal experience, a sharing of emotion and ideas.
Art is art. Commercialization is another thing. At that point the artist is selling a product and feedback on a product is to be expected. I feel like Jon Stewart is a lot more than just an artist tho. Not only has he highlighted the suffering of fellow Americans on multiple platforms, he has done the work to bring about change in their lives, particularly what he did for 9/11 first responders. He’s a hero of mine. ❤
This conversation was interesting and I know you can't talk about everything in an hour, but after awhile I got really distracted by the almost total absence of women as comedians and audience members and/or female perspectives. I hope the book at least mentions questions like whether women and men have any clear differences in what they find funny and unfunny, why they watch it, etc.,etc. As I said, you can't cover everything, but this was very conspicuous by its absence. Especially if the focus is the last 30 years, when women are supposedly not invisible anymore.
Thank you for mentioning this!
Yes, good point. I loved this show and want to read the book. Will he discuss the terrific women out there?
You gotta be funny . That’s it.
Jesse, I hope your book sells very well so you can get a microphone stand (and maybe some artwork)
Man, an offline with Jon Stewart would be such an interesting episode to hear
Jon F interviewed Jon Stewart on Pod Save America @ 3 years ago.
@@PortlandRose I know, but an offline episode as stewart has really removed himself from the online world would be an interesting discussion.
Love the subject. I'm a big student of Comedy. Jesse has some good thoughts.
More like this, please. 😊
It’s really interesting the way comedy has changed in a really short time.
Comedy has seemed kind of low-brow for generations, whereas drama has been more “cultured,” and I’m really glad that’s changing. Comedy is really important in how we understand the world and each other
We also did not realize how intelligent these comedian performers are. Talented and their delivery is eloquently executed. 💙🙏🏻🇺🇸⚖️🗽
I definitely feel that Parasocial relationship with crooked media. During the intro I’m like hiiiii tommmmyyyyyy 🤣
Can we cancel the Trump show. Please
Yea Trump's comedy is not funny .
I wish! The last time someone protested against his humor, he deported them. That was in spite of them being a US citizen. Not funny.
Cruelty is not funny. Don't think Trump understands WHY his rallies laugh either. He looks to the left for his people (Jason Miller's) to record for next speech.
@DanWasAlreadyHere Who are you referring to? I tried to search for them, but I didn't find anything that fit what you said. (I found plenty of other sad and unjust cases where people who are U.S. citizens or green card holders recieved threats of deportation or other punishments. But none who fit your description). Thanks! 🙂
Bonding by MAGAts' need for human connection in their hatred and cruelty.
I also tie the success of The daily Show and subsequent copycats like the John Oliver show to the rise of the "explainer" format in news media, which also happened a lot in written articles on the internet i.e.Vox, on shows like Adam ruins everything, etc. Maybe it's because I was young enough when Jon Stewart became popular that this was just the first example I encountered, but I think that format became very popular thanks to him. Those others have refined it since. Instead of focusing just on interviews, or separating editorial from hard news, they produced long form pieces that Dove deep into a specific topic and covered both the facts and shined a light on why those facts create a problem. The fact that so many of those shows do so in a comedy format is only one part of why i like them. Compare that to something like 60 minutes and I don't think I've ever felt that 60 minutes was tackling the same kinds of issues with the same amount of useful information.
This discussion is very US centric. In the UK and i would argue Australia, comedy has been a tool of political and social expression for decades as part of mass media. On TV and musical comedy. The US took a while to move past slapstick and into satire.
I'm glad you clarified this, because as a Brit listening to the conversation, the first several minutes were basically nonsense 😅.
I was very confused about what I was missing.
I'm American and found the discussion odd, as well, but then again...I'm old (a bit over 50). =o) There has been social commentary (which includes politics) in US comedy for a very long time. Just a few examples - George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Whoopi Goldberg. This is going to make me sound old, too, but I find this quite a bit with conversations with younger people - it often seems that things don't exist before "their time." I had older than average parents, so maybe I had a different history but I learned about things that were older than when I was alive.
@@evrywmn67it goes back farther. Mark Twain, Will Rogers, The Smothers Bros (who actually were cancelled because of their political satire) Rowan & Martin's Laugh In. Lenny Bruce & George Carlin who were both also targeted for their "profanity' as a means of censorship(being arrested during a show). The Daily Show was mocking mainstream news coverage (Fox, CNN, etc) as much as actual politics/politicians. It's been around for a while just not on network tv.
It feels like these non-shavers haven't heard of music hall theatre, Shakespeare, Ancient Greece, the people having sex in the Bayeux Tapestry, the Puritans, Monty Python, Oscar Wilde, Blackadder and Red Dwarf. That's not even scratching the surface. Which is amusing because they seem to think it comes from our prehistoric ancestors (obviously true) but then think their generation is special. Weird. We're none of us special. None of us. Especially not people people who think they're special who are the least remarkable people who ever exist.
Trevor Noah on America's third world problems is some of the best comedic education ever.
Comedy is a very broad subject and the book seems to be following the comic philosophers of our time. Don't forget that there is so much more. The satirists have done so much to influence public opinion and then there's the Randy Rainbow type of musical satire that is so entertaining that people watch it again and again. I think he has done a lot to influence political opinion.
Jon Favreau and Crooked Media has to be the hardest working podcasters out there! Maybe Meidas Touch competes! Thank you guys. So appreciate the live stage shows🤗
Free Speech ≠ Consequence-free Speech ✌️💜
I value Jon's perspective but I would suggest that in history comedy is usually a reaction to a collapsing political system as oppose the inverse causal relationship.
just curious on where you're getting this notion from? i love comedy but broadcast television is about as old as the beginning of the downturn in this country, and i cant think of what you'd be referring to in a historical context... there was shakespeare centuries ago but thats way different than the stand up/sitcom styles of today (which is all ive known as a 38 year old), and then i guess there were court jesters in feudal societies? what real history is there that gives you this notion?
Not trolling ya, just confused as to how you came to that conclusion
@@Pro-DemocraticAdvocate I don't know that the OP is correct, but Voltaire would come to mind as an example they could use. The French monarchy wasn't doing all that will in the 1700's.
@@SilortheBlade Yeah, I know nothing about french society really and their general attitudes , besides the major historical intertwining with the US and the world wars and some napoleonic stuff.. but I'm definitely a comedy lover and student of history and the futhest back truly "political comedy" I can think of is like Lenny Bruce, and George Carlin after him. Some people are super sensitive when you reply with somr passive aggressive shit so if I disagree I try to soften the blow a little bit because I really wanna know how they came to believe that, as it just seems really out of place to me
I had to self-diagnose when he said that comedians become a trusted news source, because i came to PSA for the DeSantis dunking and now i regularly listen to you guys and do trust what you say. Maybe i should take a step back?...
This was a great episode John 😊 Trevor Noah is one of my faves, and Seth Meyers
I hope there is a big chapter on George Carlin. He was so ahead of his time.
He said he goes back only 30 years....so 1993? I doubt he will cover Carlin.
Jon Stewart was greatly influenced by Carlin.
Have you seen the documentary from some years ago? Based on Carlin's book too.
As a gay, disabled man, I know what it's like to have a comedian say things that are offensive to me. I've been pissed off, yet as a former standup myself, I firmly believe that you can make a good joke on any topic. Any topic. It's all about the way you approach it. I always tried to write my material like I was putting my arm around the audeience's shoulders and say "Let me show you something." rather than "Here are stupid things straight peope do." And it worked! Peope I never expected would like my act would make a point of complimenting me. But if you never offend anyone, you're not doing interesting or smart material. And it's ridiculpus to tailor your act to the most delicate flowers in the room. I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool liberalwho still thinks people on the left need to toughen up
A comedian without the first impulse that getting a laugh is great is not a comedian. Self-censorship may be humane, prudent, or necessary, but it comes second.
@@PhilipMuench-w6c IT's all about tiptoeing on the line. You will cross it at times, but you need to learn from that.
Too many big comedians seem to forget that and get mad at the audience for not finding it funny.
My own personal preference (which doesn't have to be anyone else's opinion) is that whatever group the joke is about, the joke should be deep enough and smart enough to make people in that group laugh. It should be something they relate to, rather than being a surface level cheap jab. If that's what you're doing you can make jokes about anyone, you just have to put the work in.
Anyone is, of course, allowed to disagree and feel differently! That's just my opinion.
On the Dave Chappelle discussion, it made me think of Ricky Gervais as well. Very talented comedian who leans too much on lazy, bullying jokes that just... aren't as good.
The bullying jokes are not funny. It's disappointing when talented comedians decide to just stomp on those who are already suffering.
@@lynnhettrick7588nah they’re funny.
@@kah-vl8tiOnly if you like kicking down.
Ricky never kicks down. What’s disturbing is that the right watches him and doesn’t think he’s joking.
@@naylas3908 He hasn't done it too often but he has a couple of times. I wouldn't think many on the right watch him since he's an anti-theist.
Comedy is tragedy taken to its limit. The idea of comedy being thought of as lowbrow is absurd. It was the Fool who would speak truth to the King.
when comedians bully, they bully. It's not a flavor thing
37:12 this is the most import part of the whole bit! Trump would arrest comedians like a tyrant because their words have power
Comedy is a communal experience. In some cases, it can not only coalesce the community of those sharing similar views. But, it can also bring those with differing views together at least momentarily by helping us see the error in our own views or “tribe” and relieve some pressure we have built up from our tendency to relate exclusively to our own tribe.
My son and I always looked forward to watching The Problem together. But, we are confident Jon Stewart will find a better path. Or Apple will see the error of their ways.
Laughter is a medication all humans need. Viva la comedy.
There are dozens of comedians on Drybar that have people laughing constantly, who are not allowed to use offensive or cursing content.
I'm just at the start of the video right now, but I want to pitch Jon Stewart as (a) the most influential comedian of all time and (b) one of the most influential media personalities of all time.
There wasn't anything like The Daily Show before The Daily Show, as far as I know. In-depth stories, topical news, and politics, all told with a visible liberal slant that, while informing some of the choices made, didn't detract from the truth of the information. And it was all genuinely funny; it was the funniest show on TV for a long time. Network news is boring and childishly oversimplified; most "political" shows are panel shout-fests or 14 people each getting a ten second hit. Most of MSNBC and all of Fox is aggressively slanted trash. CNN is mostly unwatchable with a couple of good hosts. The good news shows are either podcasts _(thanks Crooked Media!)_ or TDS-style news/comedy. TDS, their many good correspondents, and _especially_ Jon Stewart made the mold. What other comedian can claim anything even remotely like that? Aristophanes? Shakespeare? And how many people in any form of media can say they created the dominant model for 3 decades in any genre? Maybe 5?
Jon Stewart is by far the greatest comedian of my lifetime, and maybe the most important ever. He's, surprisingly, the Walter Cronkite of this generation - someone that everyone knows is telling the truth, at least as he sees it; even Fox didn't generally take issue with his information, only his tone or slant. He's only burnished his credentials since he left, with his non-partisan political activism and his recent fight with Apple. I watched maybe one or two episodes of his MTV show, and I don't think anyone who watched that saw this coming.
I totally get what you are saying about SNL, but Weekend Update is consistently great for the most part.
Something that we need to recognize as part of our history and culture is the part comedy has played in enforcing harmful stereotypes and ideals. The biggest difference is that now when someone makes the equivalence of a sambo joke we can say, "I do not think this is funny and I believe that it is actually harmful." So many modern comedians (many are ones that I love and patronize) have gotten so pee their pants scared of someone saying that on the internet it's a little sad. Their predecessors were jailed for using profanity, female comedians risked rape, black comedians risked violence and death while also being cut out of venues and were forced to walk in the rear while headlining... and these people are scared of a mean tweet?!?
this book sounds amazing.
Jesse was right about comedy being subjective. What I find funny, others don't and vice versa. That's just people. I've posted humourous memes and some of them are a hit with 1000s of likes and others fall flat. Some jokes resonate and others don't. (and I like Alec Baldwin's Trump)
I too like Alec Baldwin's Trump. I have liked most of the people who do impersonations - some more so than others.
My grandfather grew in Manchester in NW England and his sense of humor has never left me, so that i love UK humor more than any other.
I’m loving this podcast 🙂 Something is fluttering and I have to take my ear bud out
30:00 I know the hand held mic is sort of his gimmick, but buy is it annoying when it's rubbing up against things for several minutes.
As you covered the trust in the news and its transference to comedians, I think one of those the insights comedians bring to light are universal truths, e.g. George Carlin.
Comedy should always punch up, when it kicks down, it doesn't hold up (Murphy, Chappelle)
Finally one of the most basic qualities of good comedy in incongruity, and almost nothing is more that, than politics.
John Stewart for Senate!
All the best to you💝🎉😘
This is a fascinating analysis - esp. since I think we're about the same age, so it's really interesting to hear someone analyze the way I've / we've taken in information has been shaped
For the last question about comedy and the pandemic: Inside.
That special hit everyone who watched it some type of way and I STILL can’t entirely explain what it did and why, but it worked.
I once got my dad to laugh at Benny Hill. I don’t think he ever forgave me for that!
I found the show very funny as a child. I am sure I would find a few sketches funny today. But it was the same or similar gag every time, and that gets stale after a while.
For a good cathartic laugh, both Jim Gaffigan's post covid specials are fantastic.
Dude needs to get a mic stand and learn how far he can be from mic to avoid distortion. Good conversation...but his sound issues take away from it.
I just scrolled until I found this comment so I could agree.
Fascinating.
Oh my, the mic noise is so distracting. Sound check w guest would have been in order.
This speaks to my soul
This hypothesis that Millenials are especially into comedy doesn’t match my experience. I am Gen X with lots of friend of both Gen X and Millenial age. All my Gen X friends grew up listening to comedy albums (Bill Cosby, Steve Martin, George Carlin) and watched tons of stand up in the MTV boom of comedy. My millenial friends mostly associate comedy with meme gifs and don’t know many comedians at all.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. That said the guest didn't present any evidence to his point either.
@@SilortheBlade True for my contribution - I am also Gen X and grew up listening to comedy albums, then DVDs later - Pryor always has to be the top of that list - the others , Eddie Murphy certainly, Dangerfield and his young comedians - were gold. the Millenials that I know were much like he said - they were really into John Stewart and the daily show - that is where they consumed news / what was happening in their world. I would watch at times but always was very clear it was entertainment. No question my favorite was Colbert
@@SilortheBlade 100% agree. That’s why I was careful to state that it was my experience.
I think that people who are interested in stand up are interested in stand up regardless of age. I love watching comedians, but not everyone does. Just like every other form of entertainment, it's a matter of taste.
@@cbpd89 Totally agree.
Look... this doesn't effect the quality of the show but... someone get this man a mic stand. His arm had to be sore after recording.
And a dentist appointment 🦷🪥
Easier to laugh and feels better than crying
Randy Rainbow is the best.
Im a 53yr old woman from Australia i have voted left in EVERY ELECTION since 1988. ❤ Trevor Noah, John Oliver, Jon Stewart but I also ❤ Bill Burr, Conan, Triumph the insulting dog. Bugs Bunny, Family Guy. Im 2nd generation southern italian in Australia im called a Dago in Italy im called Torrone, because "southern italians have darker skin than the north. Life is complex, hard, traumatic please leave me comedy. Sometimes we just want 2 laugh @ a fart joke
Heady stuff. I'm not following some of the finer points, but it's very interesting. Definitely going to read the book.
For the right, trump is a comedian/entertainer that people can go see a show at trump events with like minded people.
True, I've seen people lay laugh tracks and Seinfeld cues over his bits and they fit perfectly.
This was a really good interview, but where's Max :(
If The Daily Show made people distrust politics it was only because the politics was not trustworthy. I'm not sure we can criticise TDS for being right. Unless of course Saddam really did have WMDs and I just missed it...
That was a really good conversation.
Jesse fox has a brilliant mind greatly appreciated
Good show guys, thank you
The new court jesters - speaking truth, amusingly, to power. What? It’s as ancient as any nobleman’s house back to the 14th century.
Fetterman is loved because he has the 'Thing'. 😊
John you are my friend
I love Baldwin’s impersonation of Trump on SNL. So funny
George Carlin himself talked about political correctness killing comedy, and in his interview, he notes that "one should punch up, not down."
He also said everything can be funny, even the stuff that really upsets 'people'.
Mic check, mic check
"The Problem" with John Stewart has been canceled... seems topical to this podcast in an unfortunate way.
That sucks. I didn't know that.
Yeah, and it has been made clear that the reason it was cancelled was for having political opinions. Which makes it super relevant to this.
The reason SNL is hit or miss. It’s written on Monday rehearsals on Wednesday and performed live on Saturday.
With a different guest host every week.
An interesting point is where Daily Show started. Craig Kilborn was very much a product of "The Man Show" era. but it paved the way for Stewart and Oliver. baby steps i quess
Also imo this is why UA-cam Shorts suck and I wish I could turn them off. If I wanted to watch tiktok it's already right there.
Sorry, couldn't listen to it due to the constant knocking. Drove me crazy. Shame, because that's a very interesting topic.
That's just you bro 😂 I don't hear any knocking
Just thought of the Stone's song, "Can't you hear me knockin'" ... which I couldn't.
@@mangos2888 Interesting. Just revisited. At least they noticed. At 6:44 Jesse picked up the mic and the knocking was gone. My explaination is that you guys are listening on phone speaker with no bass. Otherwise I cannot imagine how to not hear that.
Anyways, good content as always.
I wish Kliph Nesteroff were part of this conversation. Especially with his new history of culture wars and show business book out.
SNL is a combination of comedic segments.
I’m watching offline…online 😂
i love all the diversity in this conversation. One cis white guy with a beard and glasses and one cis white guy without a beard or glasses!!!
😆point there!
So confused... what is the definition of comedy here? Arent some of the greatest and most respected authors comedians? Isnt sattitire a form of comedy? It sounds like the only idea here is sketch comedy, which has also been well respected since the inception of television. This clearly doesnt refer to political comedy as that has been around since antiquity. Would love to start all of these topics with a definition of what you are talking about
The "defensive" part of why people grow attached to comedic personalities-- even when they are playing to the shock-- is because it is extrinsic feedback to create consensus and trust with an audience. If we only had the capacity to measure trust (and over time, integrity) based on factual information, cults of personality wouldn't exist; instead, we give people benefit of the doubt because it allows us to be more socialable with others; it's also tied to our state of suggestion and to our sense of catharsis (sometimes why artists will mention art as being more "true than real".) It's also why hate is described as a carnal sensory input, and is even why monsters in horror media are not only romanticized but are even viewed as sympathetic (whether it be in familiarization with tragedy or through the catharsis of coming to better terms with our insecurities-- the body horrors of aging, disability and injury, being able to reflect on one's capacity of doing "evil" things, and the anxieties of uncertainties, irrational or not.)
TL;DR - The thrill makes you feel alive, and the defensiveness and the consensus you feel in a state of suggestion give you more sense of tangibility of what is real, even when it isn't necessarily true.
P.S., Similar cerebral effects are part of why Gandhi used to weave his own clothing-- not only was it to reduce dependence on foreign-made clothing, but it helped him familiarize with his own sense of identity by ritually practicing a practice with high tangibility input.
The opposite of tangibility input practices can be viewed in things like solitary confinement-- we lose our sense of identity when we lose the independent capacity to sense things.
Oddly enough, the thing I dislike most about SNL is the house band and intro music
The only thing I got from this interview is Jesse David Fox wrote a book. It wndered around with the clarity of a Trump rally.
This conversation was awesome, but Jesse was holding his microphone way too close- it hurt my ears!
Lemonade and now security systems? I’m proud of simply brand they’ve come so far.
as a non-tweeter its hard to believe that the world needs to be understood through what happens on that platform in order to understand what happens IRL.
Should have had Trae Crowder on for this piece. He is the guy they're talking about and a positive voice.
This is confirmation bias. Somebody who takes Comedians "seriously", or wants to take them "seriously" thinks Comedians are "serious". It's nonsense. It's your already established value system that attracts you to certain Comics. In essence, Comedians are echo chambers. Comedians have no effect on the world - except to make us laugh. A good thing in and of itself, but nothing more.
P.S. This dude is ignorant of 80's UK Comedians if he thinks they were all "masculine".
I think in terms of GenX comedy, you have to look at Dennis Miller's evolution from SNL to post-9/11. His heel turn into right- wing comedy after that just bewildered a lot of former fans.
Some people work well in a specific role. Miller was funny on the "news" segment on SNL. You didn't see him in anything else really. When he left, turns out he wasn't as funny (although I remember liking his HBO show whenever that was). SO at that point, he needs to do something to make him relevant. So he finds a niche and doubles down on it. NO idea if that reflects his actual politics or not, but that audience buys tickets to his shows, and that is the most important thing.
@@SilortheBlade I used to watch his HBO show every week, but most of my 90s TV diet was comedy (the original Daily Show with Craig Kilbornn, Bill Maher's various Politically Incorrect, etc. ) and I liked Dennis Miller so much I saw Bordello of Blood in the theaters! So of all the swings to the right, Dennis Miller was the only one I found surprising. Maher was always heading that direction, imo, but Miller really made a U- turn drastically. And he stopped being funny altogether. It made me sad in a way other comedians changes haven't.
Thre's some unfortunate apologia in here. Dave Chapelle does not think he's helping when he spreads dangerous hate speech about trans people. He thinks he's hurting those who intend to hurt him. He's punching down pure and simple, because he feels threatened.
There are *possible* sets that talk about these issues in a way that ride a line and will be seen differently (justifiably) by different groups. That example ain't it.
Wholeheartedly agree!
I think this is an example where both sides are assuming the worst in each other. There is about as much evidence for thinking that Chapelle intended hurt with his trans jokes as there is justification for Chapelle thinking that trans people just need to toughen up and learn to take a joke, which is to say neither position is fair to the other.
Jon is right, Chapelle's trans bit seemed more a self righteous defensive justification than humor, which makes it more cringey than funny to me. And both sides could stand to lighten up a bit, and not assume the worst of the other.
Yeah no mention of Volodomir Zelenski?!
15:15 hmm tomatoes.......😂
I would say that there IS a current strong culture to reflect “bro”ness or maleness. It’s hip hop, one of the dominant music genres in the world. But the sides feel extreme, with hip hop representing extreme male violence, and the Barbie/taylor swift representing saccharine femininity. Idk. Wish femininity could be associated more with genius’s like Heddy Lamar, rather than “vulnerability” and I wish masculinity could be more nuanced as well. But it feels like it’s going in the wrong direction.
🎉Have you checked out the UK artist Ren? His 9 minute art music video is amazing. Watch all the way until the end. He has a variety of genres from rap to indie to instrumental. There is a life backstory that feeds his music and drive. His subjects are sometimes serious re mental health, illness, capitalism, etc. He is brilliant.
I want to add that a lot of the comedians Millenial and Gen Z enjoy are Gen X. Ie Jon Stewart.
😂 Gen X doesn’t use comedy for general communication? A lot of today’s humor has its basis in the deep dark sarcasm of Gen X.