Hi Ken, recently subscribed. I decided to buy a 202 and live in Thailand so parts and upgrades are harder to get here. Got a question not sure if you have experience in this: the stock 202 comes with a Helix 130mm prop but I read the Helix 140mm prop is way better but requires a larger cage. Wondering if you or anyone you know that has used a three blade 130mm prop and how it compares to the two blade 130mm and 140mm.
I've only run a 140 eprops, with a 153cm cage. I had an issue with helix, they cut the center bore of the prop hub too large, I found this and reported it to helix, they agreed it should be minimal clearance. It's true thousands of pilots have been running it like that, just my personal opinion is I don't think that's acceptable.
I got a 2 channel hand held industrial unit (~$30 jungle site), and it has issues reading both at the same time. I have to swap the temp t/c connectors in flight. I made K-type extensions with expensive legit k-type connectors. Pretty sure the Polini factory T/Cs are K-type, it always matches ambient, lmk otherwise ha!
I just dropped this EGT tuning video! ua-cam.com/users/shortsdA50iYbaz0k While I have some more extra time on my hands, I pulled the EGT sensor and compared it with a lab grade K-type thermocouple (1/8 probe closed tip) just now, it was on par at 24.4C and 75.6C +/- 1C temperature test points; while both probes were free floating in water of these two temperatures. I let them both settle for 3 minutes each, they were within 0.2C in 30 seconds I'd guess. I also used two different thermocouple readers, my larger 4-channel I've had and the 2-channel I got for the motor. Was questioning my EGT readings before dropping that video haha!
@@iKenFlyPPG Yeah, I have just been overpaying for the Polini tach that includes a single temp. I've had my eye on flyhenry ppg meter for a while but haven't pulled the trigger to get one. I've resorted to only monitoring EGT and that's "good enough" assuming you check your radiator fluid levels occasionally.
Excellent overview! Are you concerned that the plastic buckles that hold your harness to the frame might not hold you and might fail if there is a lot of force on them in an unexpected failure? I am at 90 hours on my Polini Thor 202 and like you, I love it. Smooth, powerful, and honestly I do not mind the extra weight for the 5-10 minutes it is on my back per flight. I do want to get the remote choke. My currently process is to flip the choke, get it on my back, start it, let it get to about 30-40ºC coolant temp, then shut it off, take it off, flip the choke back down, then get the rest of my stuff ready to fly. It works, but it would be nicer to only have to put the motor on once!!!
Thanks for the heads up, should I be worried about the buckles? I could be misunderstanding, as of now I do not foresee a risk because the maximum loading on the buckle is from the mass of the paramotor + inertia, maybe 120 lbs max if you jump off a porch. To get an idea I see that the 1 in. YKK plastic buckles are advertised to handle 350 lbs.The buckles on the APCO harness are 1-5/16 in. I agree, the remote choke is not required, and is convenient. I have used it for diagnosis lean conditions, like the Dellorto lean idle problem in near freezing weather. I'm fixing to design a choke actuator to add fuel in-flight to help with tuning and adjust EGT during cruise. I have parts to add an air bleed as well with a flow control, this way I can lean out EGT during cruise as well. Before I continue with the carb stuff, I'm deep into upgrading the fuel system. First is understanding the stock flow rates, pressure if I can even measure it. The stock plastic fuel pump is genuine mikuni, but I got a square body metal Mikuni to compare and they are easily rebuildable pumps, plastic ones are disposable. I got a spring loaded one-way check valve which should act like a very low pressure regulator, in theory.
@@iKenFlyPPG I'm just thinking in a collapse or reserve situation, or even in a tight turn or light acro, the forces on your harness could be pretty extreme. If you pull 2-3Gs and weigh 200 lbs, that could be 400-600 lbs of force on those buckles, which are keeping your shoulder straps attached to you and your body! If they were to snap, your leg buckles might be the only thing holding you in your harness, probably not ideal. I'm not sure of the breaking force rating on the nylon straps, but I am guessing it is much higher than the plastic buckles, if they even have a load consideration. These are extreme cases, but in such cases I personally would want to know that I'm maximizing my chances that my equipment will not fail in unexpected ways that could cause me injury or death! I'd love to see more about your choke actuator design! Sounds fascinating. I'm probably going to see if I can pick up a remote choke this year. I'm very much interested in your fuel system tweaks and upgrades too! I appreciate optimization, and anything that provides better fuel economy, delivery, and/or reliability and maintainability is WICKED awesome. I hope you'll continue to share your journey and the things you learn! Thanks!!
@@ooglek Not sure if I understand the force vectors you're mentioning. My understanding is there are 2 plastic buckles for the shoulder straps, which are not in play while flying, and then there are 2 buckles that keeps the bottom of the harness stabilized. Furthermore, my understanding is that all wing load forces are transferred through 1) harness-to-swingarm mounting loops, 2) swingarm-to-frame mounts. The harness mounting loops are engineered to take all of the load, seat board breaking loads.
@@iKenFlyPPG AFAIK, and based on my previous APCO Universal harness and my current Dudek Power Seat Comfort, the shoulder straps loop over your shoulders and the strap connects directly to the frame. I had one come undone while I was pre-flighting, and the shoulder strap just dangled in space. If both were to have come off, my upper body would not be restrained against the seat or harness back. The chest strap would potentially choke me if I were thrown forward for some reason. If the shoulder straps connect directly to the clips, then if enough force were to occur and they would both break, the shoulder straps would not restrain your upper body in the harness, and could potentially choke you with the chest strap. You are correct that the shoulder straps are not under tension while flying, but in a collapse, collision, wind shear, or other unexpected loss of lift, or if/when a reserve is thrown, your person would be thrown about in an unpredictable manner, but with likely higher than 1G of forces, depending on if your wing catches lift and then loses it again. I would not want my shoulder straps to stop retaining me in my seat during an incident, especially on a crash. One thing my instructor told me: "You're the pilot." We all take risks! If you're comfortable with the clips, and know their shear/breaking strength and are comfortable with it, no worries at all! Personally I look for the "weakest link" on my harness, frame, and motor, both during pre-flight and maintenance, to try to eliminate any failure points I can, even if under normal operation, it would be fine. You are also correct that the wing load forces go through the harness-to-swingarm, and swingarm-to-frame mounts. My comment/concern is about how YOU, your physical body, is restrained in the harness, if the clips, for whatever reason (cold makes them brittle, hot/cold cycle reduces strength, accidental petroleum product weakens it, load is exceeded), break. I don't think you'll fall out, but not having your upper body restrained in a crash, or in a weird spiral that could put you in a situation where you cannot sit up to reach the risers/lines to control things, could have bad consequences. The risk, I realize, is very low. I've been flying for 3.5 years and have not had a collapse. The likelihood of the clips being overloaded and breaking is low as well. But it is not nothing, and I'm a guy that hopes to fly for another 20-30+ years if possible, so I keep an eye out for things like that. I yield to you and your piloting skills here! I would feel bad if something happened and I hadn't mentioned it, but I also think it is a reasonable risk, as long as it is considered and decided by you to not be important enough to change. Respect!
@@ooglek I see where you're coming from and don't deny those situations exist. I'm only hypothesizing and discussing, I am in no way refuting you personally, I'd like to stick to discussing the idea. I feel as though I'm trying to take a side here, please be aware I'm an engineer personality with bad people skills and always come off arrogant, and I'm good at picking apart ideas, especially mine. I don't like it when friends come to me with business ideas, I am the buzz killing realist. I can visualize getting dropped, but the inertia of the paramotor frame + motor isn't much. I'm thinking out loud, the plastic buckles only connect the harness/pilot to the frame/motor. The harness/pilot could weight 200 lbs for example, and the frame/motor 70 lbs. There would have to be enough acceleration and kinetic energy achieved to apply tension between the pilot and frame. I don't think there is enough mass in either system to generate enough force without extreme accelerations to generate hundreds of pounds, it's 6-8" of slack maybe. I think the accelerations required for this will likely kill the pilot, for example mid-air collision where a large aircraft that hits just the paramotor frame, then ripping away the paramotor frame from the pilot/harness. Like I hypothesized, you're dead. However thinking out loud some more, I can see the wing being the source of massive loading on the paramotor system, although the wing is attached through the strong points of the motor so, hmmm. Even if you got flipped upside down and ripped violently at some odd angles, it's still attached to the hard points. We should certainly add it to the FMEA, that's where we sit down officially and come up with very specific failure modes (plastic buckles snapping, all the combinations 1 through all 4 failing), and then analyze the effects of the failure. You assign different values to them, idk for example, the likelihood is low but if it does happen then it's really bad. I'll now think about it some more since you've brought it to my attention!
Has one of the highest TBO maintenance schedules, if you hear about a hole in a piston that is from carburetion. All paramotor engines in the 2020's have their problems, pros and cons. The Thor 202/303 fits a niche, that is completely different than a Moster 185.
Yeah moster users keep putting me off getting one I need something reliable and that won’t blow up I’m 140kg . What problems have you had your self personally and at how many hours use did the problems arise if any . ? with you mentioning high maintenance schedules seems like there is constant issues and I have seen images of the piston bursting out the case . Like I said I want it because I’m 140kg and for XC flying
@@reefrockcritter8943 Reliability is subjective with 2T engines and failures of pistons have little to do with the engine. The most reliable paramotor engine ever would still get holes in pistons with bad fueling. Thor 202/303 issue is the stock Dellorto carb is not tunable, it comes pig rich and runs like garbage. I am going to release an affordable carburetor kit to solve all these issues and it will include an actual chart to reference to tune it for the weather conditions. Subscribe to my channel and I'll post when it's done.
Hi Ken, recently subscribed. I decided to buy a 202 and live in Thailand so parts and upgrades are harder to get here. Got a question not sure if you have experience in this: the stock 202 comes with a Helix 130mm prop but I read the Helix 140mm prop is way better but requires a larger cage. Wondering if you or anyone you know that has used a three blade 130mm prop and how it compares to the two blade 130mm and 140mm.
I've only run a 140 eprops, with a 153cm cage. I had an issue with helix, they cut the center bore of the prop hub too large, I found this and reported it to helix, they agreed it should be minimal clearance. It's true thousands of pilots have been running it like that, just my personal opinion is I don't think that's acceptable.
Nice video! I loved my 202. What're your plans for monitoring the two temp sensors?
I got a 2 channel hand held industrial unit (~$30 jungle site), and it has issues reading both at the same time. I have to swap the temp t/c connectors in flight. I made K-type extensions with expensive legit k-type connectors. Pretty sure the Polini factory T/Cs are K-type, it always matches ambient, lmk otherwise ha!
I just dropped this EGT tuning video! ua-cam.com/users/shortsdA50iYbaz0k
While I have some more extra time on my hands, I pulled the EGT sensor and compared it with a lab grade K-type thermocouple (1/8 probe closed tip) just now, it was on par at 24.4C and 75.6C +/- 1C temperature test points; while both probes were free floating in water of these two temperatures. I let them both settle for 3 minutes each, they were within 0.2C in 30 seconds I'd guess.
I also used two different thermocouple readers, my larger 4-channel I've had and the 2-channel I got for the motor.
Was questioning my EGT readings before dropping that video haha!
@@iKenFlyPPG Yeah, I have just been overpaying for the Polini tach that includes a single temp. I've had my eye on flyhenry ppg meter for a while but haven't pulled the trigger to get one. I've resorted to only monitoring EGT and that's "good enough" assuming you check your radiator fluid levels occasionally.
Excellent overview! Are you concerned that the plastic buckles that hold your harness to the frame might not hold you and might fail if there is a lot of force on them in an unexpected failure?
I am at 90 hours on my Polini Thor 202 and like you, I love it. Smooth, powerful, and honestly I do not mind the extra weight for the 5-10 minutes it is on my back per flight.
I do want to get the remote choke. My currently process is to flip the choke, get it on my back, start it, let it get to about 30-40ºC coolant temp, then shut it off, take it off, flip the choke back down, then get the rest of my stuff ready to fly. It works, but it would be nicer to only have to put the motor on once!!!
Thanks for the heads up, should I be worried about the buckles? I could be misunderstanding, as of now I do not foresee a risk because the maximum loading on the buckle is from the mass of the paramotor + inertia, maybe 120 lbs max if you jump off a porch.
To get an idea I see that the 1 in. YKK plastic buckles are advertised to handle 350 lbs.The buckles on the APCO harness are 1-5/16 in.
I agree, the remote choke is not required, and is convenient. I have used it for diagnosis lean conditions, like the Dellorto lean idle problem in near freezing weather. I'm fixing to design a choke actuator to add fuel in-flight to help with tuning and adjust EGT during cruise. I have parts to add an air bleed as well with a flow control, this way I can lean out EGT during cruise as well.
Before I continue with the carb stuff, I'm deep into upgrading the fuel system. First is understanding the stock flow rates, pressure if I can even measure it. The stock plastic fuel pump is genuine mikuni, but I got a square body metal Mikuni to compare and they are easily rebuildable pumps, plastic ones are disposable. I got a spring loaded one-way check valve which should act like a very low pressure regulator, in theory.
@@iKenFlyPPG I'm just thinking in a collapse or reserve situation, or even in a tight turn or light acro, the forces on your harness could be pretty extreme. If you pull 2-3Gs and weigh 200 lbs, that could be 400-600 lbs of force on those buckles, which are keeping your shoulder straps attached to you and your body! If they were to snap, your leg buckles might be the only thing holding you in your harness, probably not ideal.
I'm not sure of the breaking force rating on the nylon straps, but I am guessing it is much higher than the plastic buckles, if they even have a load consideration.
These are extreme cases, but in such cases I personally would want to know that I'm maximizing my chances that my equipment will not fail in unexpected ways that could cause me injury or death!
I'd love to see more about your choke actuator design! Sounds fascinating. I'm probably going to see if I can pick up a remote choke this year.
I'm very much interested in your fuel system tweaks and upgrades too! I appreciate optimization, and anything that provides better fuel economy, delivery, and/or reliability and maintainability is WICKED awesome. I hope you'll continue to share your journey and the things you learn! Thanks!!
@@ooglek Not sure if I understand the force vectors you're mentioning. My understanding is there are 2 plastic buckles for the shoulder straps, which are not in play while flying, and then there are 2 buckles that keeps the bottom of the harness stabilized.
Furthermore, my understanding is that all wing load forces are transferred through 1) harness-to-swingarm mounting loops, 2) swingarm-to-frame mounts. The harness mounting loops are engineered to take all of the load, seat board breaking loads.
@@iKenFlyPPG AFAIK, and based on my previous APCO Universal harness and my current Dudek Power Seat Comfort, the shoulder straps loop over your shoulders and the strap connects directly to the frame. I had one come undone while I was pre-flighting, and the shoulder strap just dangled in space. If both were to have come off, my upper body would not be restrained against the seat or harness back. The chest strap would potentially choke me if I were thrown forward for some reason.
If the shoulder straps connect directly to the clips, then if enough force were to occur and they would both break, the shoulder straps would not restrain your upper body in the harness, and could potentially choke you with the chest strap.
You are correct that the shoulder straps are not under tension while flying, but in a collapse, collision, wind shear, or other unexpected loss of lift, or if/when a reserve is thrown, your person would be thrown about in an unpredictable manner, but with likely higher than 1G of forces, depending on if your wing catches lift and then loses it again.
I would not want my shoulder straps to stop retaining me in my seat during an incident, especially on a crash.
One thing my instructor told me: "You're the pilot." We all take risks! If you're comfortable with the clips, and know their shear/breaking strength and are comfortable with it, no worries at all!
Personally I look for the "weakest link" on my harness, frame, and motor, both during pre-flight and maintenance, to try to eliminate any failure points I can, even if under normal operation, it would be fine.
You are also correct that the wing load forces go through the harness-to-swingarm, and swingarm-to-frame mounts. My comment/concern is about how YOU, your physical body, is restrained in the harness, if the clips, for whatever reason (cold makes them brittle, hot/cold cycle reduces strength, accidental petroleum product weakens it, load is exceeded), break. I don't think you'll fall out, but not having your upper body restrained in a crash, or in a weird spiral that could put you in a situation where you cannot sit up to reach the risers/lines to control things, could have bad consequences.
The risk, I realize, is very low. I've been flying for 3.5 years and have not had a collapse. The likelihood of the clips being overloaded and breaking is low as well. But it is not nothing, and I'm a guy that hopes to fly for another 20-30+ years if possible, so I keep an eye out for things like that.
I yield to you and your piloting skills here! I would feel bad if something happened and I hadn't mentioned it, but I also think it is a reasonable risk, as long as it is considered and decided by you to not be important enough to change. Respect!
@@ooglek I see where you're coming from and don't deny those situations exist. I'm only hypothesizing and discussing, I am in no way refuting you personally, I'd like to stick to discussing the idea. I feel as though I'm trying to take a side here, please be aware I'm an engineer personality with bad people skills and always come off arrogant, and I'm good at picking apart ideas, especially mine. I don't like it when friends come to me with business ideas, I am the buzz killing realist.
I can visualize getting dropped, but the inertia of the paramotor frame + motor isn't much.
I'm thinking out loud, the plastic buckles only connect the harness/pilot to the frame/motor. The harness/pilot could weight 200 lbs for example, and the frame/motor 70 lbs.
There would have to be enough acceleration and kinetic energy achieved to apply tension between the pilot and frame. I don't think there is enough mass in either system to generate enough force without extreme accelerations to generate hundreds of pounds, it's 6-8" of slack maybe.
I think the accelerations required for this will likely kill the pilot, for example mid-air collision where a large aircraft that hits just the paramotor frame, then ripping away the paramotor frame from the pilot/harness. Like I hypothesized, you're dead.
However thinking out loud some more, I can see the wing being the source of massive loading on the paramotor system, although the wing is attached through the strong points of the motor so, hmmm. Even if you got flipped upside down and ripped violently at some odd angles, it's still attached to the hard points.
We should certainly add it to the FMEA, that's where we sit down officially and come up with very specific failure modes (plastic buckles snapping, all the combinations 1 through all 4 failing), and then analyze the effects of the failure. You assign different values to them, idk for example, the likelihood is low but if it does happen then it's really bad.
I'll now think about it some more since you've brought it to my attention!
How is the reliability? Please
Has one of the highest TBO maintenance schedules, if you hear about a hole in a piston that is from carburetion. All paramotor engines in the 2020's have their problems, pros and cons. The Thor 202/303 fits a niche, that is completely different than a Moster 185.
Yeah moster users keep putting me off getting one I need something reliable and that won’t blow up I’m 140kg . What problems have you had your self personally and at how many hours use did the problems arise if any . ? with you mentioning high maintenance schedules seems like there is constant issues and I have seen images of the piston bursting out the case . Like I said I want it because I’m 140kg and for XC flying
@@reefrockcritter8943 Reliability is subjective with 2T engines and failures of pistons have little to do with the engine. The most reliable paramotor engine ever would still get holes in pistons with bad fueling.
Thor 202/303 issue is the stock Dellorto carb is not tunable, it comes pig rich and runs like garbage. I am going to release an affordable carburetor kit to solve all these issues and it will include an actual chart to reference to tune it for the weather conditions. Subscribe to my channel and I'll post when it's done.
@@reefrockcritter8943 They put you off getting a moster? It's the exact opposite for me. Everyone keeps telling me to go with the moster.