So...THIS might be a BOMBSHELL.
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2024
- Tonight we're taking a look at 'Pentatonix' as the question has been asked if they're using pitch correction or not!
Original Video - • Pentatonix - O Holy Ni...
TIME STAMPS -
0:00 Intro
2:17 Performance
4:05 The Vocal Group Surge
7:00 These are GREAT Singers
10:39 Red Flags
13:03 Objectivity!
18:40 Production Tecniques
21:06 Each to their Own!
For more, check out my other sites! / wingsofpegasus www.wingsofpegasusband.com/ / wingsofpegasus Twitter - @wingsofpegasus Insta - @wingsofpegasusofficial - Розваги
In the universe of UA-cam, Wings of Pegasus continues to impress. Rich in content, range, and explanation. It's incredibly educational.
Thanks!
Pitch correction is an absolute cancer on creativity and musical expression
All of Freddie Mercury's live concerts with Queen have been pitch corrected, because that's what sound engineers are doing. I don't blame the singers, I blame the producers.
@@Bpg5012trick It's the tragedy of the commons. If you, as a producer, don't pitch correct, then it doesn't sell as well. Sad but true.
@@jeremykothe2847 Yet another thing consumerism robs the soul of
The advent of pitch correction really makes one appreciate the likes of the Beach Boys, Bee Gees, and Abba (to name a few). Pure unadulterated vocal perfection.
And the pure vocalists, Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis, Ella Fitzgerald, etc.
Most people never knew that Johnny Mathis' 1958 "Greatest Hits" release spent 490 weeks on the Billboard pop albums chart. A record that wasn't broken until Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" surpassed it in 1983.
eh hello , Abba used pitch correction on their last record !
Just Listen to John Farnham and you know what vocal perfection is❤️
@@MrVvulfi have the vinly never new that pent. just recall.from gma xmas dont know much about them juat see on tv here or there today on radio dusty springfield preacher man comes on old uncut article 68 pitch perfect singer then get in the car portishead sour times beth gibbons no autotune there she doesnt need same yesterday handyman gave me s glen campbell record 74 emmylou harris is the lead backing singer
You can also add The Monkees, on whom Fil recently did a video. Search for their acapella performance of Ríu Ríu Chíu, if you have any doubt of their talent.
I'm reminded of what's happening in the art world right now re: AI art. Most people don't even see it, but if you're used to looking at art made by humans, the ones that are auto-generated or "fixed" by AI really stand out. Sometimes we think "what's the harm", but what about all the people who won't get the singing gigs because another artist looks better on camera and they can "always just fix the voice later in post?"
Shiny new technology... is it making things better, or removing some of the charm of humanity?
Bob Dylan wouldn't have had a chance today.
Not to mention singers like Janis Joplin. And the whole punk genre relies on the rawness of the human voice and experience. It's counter-intuitive to polish something that's supposed to be rough.
I agree with you. But I feel like we are just in an echo chamber. Unfortunately, it seems like most of the population at large either doesn’t see the implications of this technology, or (worse) has complete disdain for anyone pursuing the arts and so don’t mind that we are being replaced
Why spend $$$$$ on art school when there's AI? I couldn't believe the Etsy vendors who jumped on the AI bandwagon ASAP. They had to be in the first wave to make it. When venues use algorithms that favor the number of items offered for low prices and the ability to make multiples of the same thing and how many of these same things have already sold, real artists who spend 25-40 hours per item can just go away. They won't live long enough to generate the inventory to appear in searches.
We are being dehumanised in many ways... AI is possibly the final blow...
Maybe we should avoid the term "Corrected" and rather use "Pitch Molested". Corrected implies they are fixing something when it quite clear they are not.
‘Tampered with’ could be another way of identifying this manipulation.
Yeah, I have mentioned that before. I think the term should be 'Pitch Manipulated' to show that it has been INTENTIONALLY ALTERED from its original pitch of the performance during the time of recording.
Pitch regimented. No originality permitted.
Love "Pitch Molested." Genius!
Pitch falsified.
Pitch correction ought to be part of the labeling disclosure like gmos, so the consumer knows what he’s getting.
Just assume it’s on everything at this point
„This recording contains pitch editing that might be considered offensive by some people“
only PTX added official video or official audio on their songs that had typical studio manipulations ( including melodyne) since 2012, to difference from their (usually) one track live recordings.
Or perhaps, in view of the universal use of electronic 'enhancement' it would be more realistic to assume that every video is doctored, unless clearly labelled 'electronic enhancement free'?
I don't think there would be much demand, if any, for such labelling - more's the pity! 😢
@@michaelhingley4770 like „gluten-free“ or „no added artificial flavors“.
This comes down to producers being out of control with their use of technology to "fix" the music. Music that in most cases is not made better by the producers tinkering.
It's sometimes not always the producers that do it. It can be done post production. By others that mix the track.
The producer may not get a say in it.
@@bobbycollins6783 A music producer's job is to see the recording process through from start to finish. If they are letting someone else determine the final mix and mastering, then they have failed at that job.
@@chrisose PTX does not have a producer in traditional sense. They have an arranger, Ben Bram, that is often referred as their producer.
They have a mixer, Ed Boyer- who does all the post production and tuning.
Only time they worked with actual producers that used pitch correction, was for their first original album.
@@bobbycollins6783 There may be some clarification in order here. There are different people and even groups of people that can be referred to as the "producer." The person who makes decisions about how the track is recorded and mixed is the one we think of first, but he is not the only one. Usually when a particular recording has someone listed as the "producer," this is who they mean. However, a "producer" can also be a person who oversees the process of getting something recorded, processed, and published (as in "executive producer") or even someone who just provides money so that the track can be recorded and published. This is the reason that some songs are credited to a producer that wasn't really directly involved in recording and mixing a track without it being technically inaccurate. Anyone involved in the process of getting a track from the recording studio to release may be referred to as a "producer."
Why someone would pitch "correct" a capella music to equal temperament, where all major thirds are wrong, is beyond me. It sounds more out of tune than the raw version.
Yes. Chamber ensembles sing a cappella to avoid the equal-tempered piano, allowing the natural just temperament the human mind and voice gravitate toward.
as a pop group, they would have zero chance to get a radio play without pitch correction.
@@minaolenella869 That is sad but probably (and unfortunately) true.
Interesting Fil! I was a camera operator on their Christmas Special show shot in Las Vegas back in 2018. Having listened to them sing right there in person for rehearsal and then the show, they certainly didn't seem to need obvious pitch correction during filming, but I would imagine the network pitch-corrected the show before it aired.
@@Spo-Dee-O-Dee This made me think of the official video to "American Dream" by The Dirt Band. In the audio you clearly hear Linda Ronstadt singing and someone playing a steel guitar. The video contains neither of these things.
Oh Fil. Yes I am ruined. Yes, I "loved" Pentatonix. I'm afraid i can no longer support their music....It is unacceptable. There will be fans who say autotune and pitch correction is an artistic, aesthetic choice. As a singer/songwriter who grew up in the 1970's, I have no use for this "aesthetic". Long live Rock 'n Roll
Everyone on MTV sounds like a Kazoo rather than a human voice now.
I agree completely. Being a musician and singer for 50+ years, give me the days of 3 Dog Night, The Lettermen, Vogues, Carpenters, and so many more. Long before the computers began destroying clean, natural music.
I agree with you. There's just more nuance in an uncorrected voice.
What gave producers the idea that voice variations in a good singer are a bad thing?
as much as I have heard, it is not producers but radio stations and other executives in labels. Pop songs without pitch correction do not get any play.
@@minaolenella869,
It’s usually the sound engineers and producers using pitch correction. Radio stations don’t demand product that their demographic doesn’t want. If their listeners are asking for certain songs, those get played more often.
Fil, I concur with your disdain, especially in your facial expressions when the voice is not being allowed to be natural. You do awesome work. I appreciate you!!!
Finally I understand why I tried to like their voices, I “should” like like their voices, somehow I know they have phenomenal voices, but I’m always dissatisfied with listening to it.
try live recordings
I must say, I’ve seen them in concert ten times- they absolutely can sing this live. The purposely arrange their songs to be performed live
Yes they have great voices, it's a shame that even some live performances are pitch corrected before being released online. I'd much rather hear the live vocals that the audience were hearing!
I hope we see more and more people like you talking about this! It’s such an uphill battle - but you are educating people one by one to this butchery of real singing and artistic expression. A hope one day that labels will feel enough pressure from the public that they revert to using voices without autotune.
It’s great to find a community here that hates pitch correction and computer “perfected” music as much as I do. Authenticity is so important in music. Just to put it out there, I make music with no computers at all on a multi track machine. I can only use the sounds I can produce. I stopped doing it for several years but I’m back again now and very excited to put these songs out into the world! I hope more people start to figure out that music is not supposed to be perfect.
I enjoy listening to human voices rather than machines, 😠
said HAL9000
Another great analysis and explanation of what we are hearing. Thanks again, Fil!🎸🎼🤘💖
I'm glad you did this. Because I've left comments on some reaction channels that has done this song.And said that pitch correction had been used. And I got replys that no they don't need it & they don't use it.
I don't believe it's always the singer's that want this. It's just something that's is done now. Because everyone does it so it has to be done. People are so used to it that they accept it as the norm.
Some singer's who are big enough stars. Don't want it on their voice. Adele on her song " Take it easy" doesn't use it I belive. You can hear when she goes sharp. And it's better for it. Listen to it again. You can hear & feel the emotion in the performance.
These tools are OK if used sparingly. But they always go over the top. It's drawing the soul out of music I think.
Better question is, who doesn't use pitch correction these days?
Exactly
Yes please! I would so listen to them whether it was a genre of music I like or not. I’m tired of pitch correction. But I’m also over extremely breathy voices that somehow seem to include a dose of vocal fry in them.
Blur. New album Life of Darren. And they’re in their 50’s. i.e., singer no longer sings as “perfectly” as when 20-something ,and I love it, flaws and all! Singing matches the lyrics which also reflect Damon’s/ the band’s age.
Oh that exaggerated breathiness! Are they having an anxiety attack? Or experiencing an epiphany? Detest it. @@juliefore
I would also like to know! Please share any groups or soloists if you have any recommendations.
Makes you appreciate groups like the Bee Gees even more.
Definitely!!!
I do like Pentatonix, but always thought they were pitch corrected. So obvious. Don’t care for this version of O Holy Night. Thanks Fil.
Pitch correction hurts my musical soul. There's nothing better than attending a concert au natural. I love hearing the little blips cuz I know they're really doing it and not just phoning it in. Love your posts Fil! 💜 from Boston.
with some experience in vocal groups as well, I actually think when the main vocalist was being sharp, he was trying to pull up the flat members to normalize the the equilibrium of the collective group (the extent of how effective it was is to be debated, but i’d think if they looked back on this performance they would be pretty disappointed on a whole)
All that said, obviously it doesnt discount how good they are as vocalists on a whole, but its a shame that their vocal talent is overshadowed by the pitched corrected perception most people equivocate them to, because there’s no doubt they’re all amazing in their own right.
Regardless, great video as always, thanks for your videos I think its a great thing how much you’re doing to educate those who are interested in this kind of thing, I feel it’s incredibly needed in a time where people are getting too used to hearing pitch corrected singing as the norm.
The “performers’” musical abilities are nearly irrelevant here. This allows for greater flexibility in terms of marketing and sales: Performers can be chosen solely for physical appearance and/or charisma, hired more cheaply, replaced more easily, etc. Once the AI engines have enough data and sophistication, human singers will be entirely superfluous, with the computer being able to generate functionally limitless variations on this product in an instant, at virtually no cost. Pure profit, if there’s an audience for it. This type of artist proves there already is, and likely trains new listeners to consume more of it everyday.
I am surprised anyone can listen to this and enjoy it, but many people obviously do. Sometimes I wonder if this sort of thing contributes to the societal breakdowns we’re undeniably experiencing. That might seem a bit overwrought or extreme, but just think of how music unified the “Woodstock generation” around political protest and social change. Whether one likes it or not, popular music can play a big role in human society. Not this stuff, tho.
Alright. If a producer wants to fix one or two notes that might be off, as you said, fine. But using pitch-correction throughout - no thanks.
My husband constantly complains “he/she sounds like they have a banana in their throat “ . Has to be pitch correction
Thanks Fil. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I agree with you entirely. I am not in the least bit interested in vocals that have had the autotune or pitch correction treatment
I would point to overuse of compressors and other digital tools, which effectively flatten/reduce the dynamic headroom and range, as another phenomenon, like pitch correction, related to ease of use/application, which has become 'normal' and adversely altered the music listened to.
Pitch Control is a disease on accapella groups. Working in Christian Music before this was used. My perfect pitch dog hearing enjoyed real harmonies in productions. The masters worked incredibly hard. Love that you are exposing the frauds.
But that's the problem! They aren't frauds! They are legitimately good singers. It's just that for some really weird reason, the industry has decided that natural voices are no longer good enough.
I have heard them say they don't use pitch correct,so why is this being done.They don't need it.
They aren't frauds - they all have incredible voices and sound amazing live. I don't think they need pitch correction but I think that is the way the music industry has gone with recorded music being produced and mixed to within an inch of its life. Even without pitch correction recorded music doesn't sound like it does live. That's one reason why so many people (me included!) like to see groups live - it's a different experience.
You have the hearing of a pitch bull terrier.
Remember Milli Vanilli? When I was a kid I tuned 20 other kids guitars and my guitar teacher's guitar based on tone memory. Without any aid.
Now I know the precise reason why I like PTX's live performances so much more than their recorded stuff.
Fil's facial expression at 9:04. Lol. That says it all right there. Like nails on a chalkboard. Another great analysis, Fil, and hello from Saskatchewan 🇨🇦!
I have always enjoyed listening to groups that can harmonize using their natural vocal abilities. Thanks Fil for the comparison regarding pitch correction. Great analysis as always. 🙂🎸🎵
I have little or none musical ability or knowledge but from listening to all of your analysis videos I am actually starting to hear pitch correction!! Wow!!that may be a miracle.
I had no idea they were pitch corrected. I loved the "real" performance ❤
It’s almost like hearing people say that didn’t realize that movies were full of actors, sets and cgi…
@Des420 False analogy. The correct analogy would be fictional movies claiming to be real documentaries. As would be the case in that example, Pentatonix are frauds.
that is why the have "official video" or "official audio" in titles since 2012, to differentiate from live unedited performances.
Back in the early days I was a huge fan of Pentatonix - they weren't pitch-corrected back then, and took great pride in the fact that they would never create a piece that they couldn't replicate exactly live. Once they jumped fully onto the commercial treadmill (around five years ago now,) I found myself gradually losing interest in their work - but I couldn't figure out why. I can see now that, on some level, I must have instinctively picked up on exactly what you've shown here - that they were starting to rely more and more on pitch correction software. They just started to sound a little TOO polished and 'perfect' - and that made them less interesting to listen to.
Their recordings have have always been pitch corrected. Their engineer Ed Boyer has done interviews where he confirmed his use of Melodyne. He was clear that while he uses it, he tries to use it in moderation. But it’s been an industry standard for many years, but lots of people are just now finding out.
Every proper video for a song on their channel has manipulated audio. Some far more than others.
@@joel2421 That's really depressing. I mean, I'd always accepted they probably 'cleaned up' the sound on their videos - but more from a production point of view, i.e, balancing volume levels and cancelling out background noise, breaths, etc. I'm pretty sure Pentatonix don't need pitch correction to still sound great - they are genuinely talented singers. But record companies equate ka-ching with 'marketable sound,' I guess...
@@Maerahn They don't sound great with pitch correction, they just sound heavily pitch corrected, which brings you this modern pop sound that they and their producer want. They probably can sound great without pitch correction.
@@Maerahn I don’t get what’s “depressing” about it. Pitch correction has been standard in recorded Pop music for almost 20 years. It was the industry standard when they first came out. Pentatonix performs live all the time, on TV shows, on social media, and at concerts. Almost none of those shows are pitch corrected. If you want hear them do a mini show with no pitch correction then listen to their episode on Malcolm Gladwell’s podcast. You can find it here on UA-cam. They sound fantastic. The truth is that because they as a group have such excellent relative pitch, unless you have perfect pitch you aren’t going to notice that their recordings are corrected.
This is the last step before commercial music is taken over completely by AI. No need for real people other than as figureheads for the generated sound.
At 11:32, Fil gets this look on his face, after a vocal passage that is just sooo keyboard-like... a look of defeat and fed-up-edness. i had to laugh. i was having that same feeling. i've been having it a lot recently, hearing new releases, sometimes from classic rock acts.
I know that studio recordings are 'corrected', 'fixed' , but to see just how much of their voices have been manipulated is very, very disappointing. I am a big fan of Pentatonix, but have noticed in their more recent albums much more production (could be a styistic choice of theirs to experiment with different sounds). I would rather listen to their 'raw' talent - and I do believe that studios/execs should have to be more upfront with the manipulation of singers voices. We as consumers deserve to be able to know what we are buying.
I honestly think the artist don't really have a choice in what happens and that sucks.
actually, they label their studio version to differentiate from unedited versions.
I do not know what the guy is talking. They have been very transparent about their use of melodyne.
And they have used LESS melodyne in recent years. It was their first original album, made by pop producers, that had massive pitch correction
You get what you wanted from a cappella group when they sing live.
Just with the amount if comments here, it's clear a lot of people aren't aware of the use of Melodyne. So unfortunately that transparency doesn't seem to be getting through, there's certainly no mention of it in the video I analysed, either in the video or description. Hence the reason for the request as someone is asking 'if' they use pitch correction 'at all'!
@@wingsofpegasus There is an article on Sound on Sound "Inside Track: Pentatonix
Secrets Of The Mix Engineers: Ed Boyer". It goes quite in dept about ise of pitch correction.
It is pretty famous among PTX fans. It may be less known among those PTX fans who have not heard all of their albums.
I really appreciate how you compare and contrast to clearly demonstrate the difference between natural vocals and manipulated vocals. Thank you.
I agree 💯 The use of pitch correction doesn’t mean the vocalists are not talented. It does mean that the sound is less rich. I just don’t care for it
"I really don't have to play the song the whole way through." Amen!
there is a God!
Yes, it gets worse, believe me, I have suffered the whole way through.
@@annatraustadottir4387it didn’t get worst. It get better. Def in the live performance. And many will disagree with you. I mean million and million of people.
What the biggest detriment is for the art of music, is that we now have a new standard of what we think singing needs to sound like. People are having their brains trained to expect fake voices, unknowingly. This also hurts live music since it’s impossible for it to meet our expectations anymore. The expressiveness of the performance no longer matters because we are conditioned to not care about it anymore. How sad.
that is exactly what PTXs mixer said about why they have to pitch correct it.
@@minaolenella869 Is that supposed to be a defense of them? No-one "has" to use pitch correction (and if they see the harm it's doing and do it anyway, that's even worse). They could stand up against an industry that is becoming more fake and refuse to be a part of that.
@@intothesunset3 you can stand up for industry when you are IN industry. Not when you are high schoolers without record deal doing a genre that is associated with covers and colleges. Genre that never had any professional mainstream recognation.
Fil, I love Pentatonix and listen to their music quite often ! It is so disappointing to hear them now knowing they are pitch corrected ! I feel that the producers are not mentioning it because they know it is not right to do this ! This group has beautiful natural voices . I now feel both deceived and a little bit sad ! What is the industries goal in pitch correcting an artists voice ? Thank you for this one. Well done !
Have you heard their natural voices?
@ikmor Yes I have
@ikmor , listen to Fil's entire video & you'll hear their natural beauty too
Around the @15:00 time
You can still love them. The record companies are going to do it no matter what. The artist don't really have a choice.
My favorite singer, Steve Perry said that the use of autotune and pitch correction is tragic. It makes everyone sound the same, with no real emotion. Steve's vocals were not technically absolutely perfect every note every song every night but they were so perfectly beautiful. 🎶 Where are the real singers today? I'll listen to Steve, Karen Carpenter, Simon and Garfunkle, Heart 🙂
Hi Fil! I am also a fan of voices that have not been pitch corrected! Pitch correction just ruins the natural beauty of the singers voice, and I think thats a darn shame! You get more out of the meaning of a song when you hear the sharps, flats, and when it sounds off key. It takes away the emotions of the singers voice and i'd rather hear that than a song that's been pitch corrected.Thanks again Fil for another awesome analysis , I appreciate you!
If a presenter or artist at the Grammy’s this year says ‘I don’t like to hear vocals that are pitch corrected; I prefer to hear natural voices. I have a message to the entire music industry - stop pitch correcting!’ It would be a revelation.
That correction is IMMEDIATELY identifiable, audibly! Wow.
though, the live version is one of their worst. Kirstin had no voice due to being on an end of her months long Broadway run with 8 shows per week, Mitch was sick and he and Scott were heavily touring with Super fruit.
Furthermore, they did not have a tune in before start.
So, as far as their live performances go, it is certainly not an indicator of what they can sound like without pitch correction.
@@minaolenella869 I imagine you are right. That said, I MUCH prefer their live version to the pitch-corrected recordings. I actually thought they sounded great, and if they can actually sound better than that (defined strictly as more pitch accurate w/o correction), then all the more power to them.
Hello Fil, thought I would share this quote.
“There’s nothing like just the plain old human voice, transferred on to some permanent record. There’s no substitute for keeping it as close to the person that is delivering it, so that you keep as much of that intimacy on that record as you can. I hope and believe our younger generation will get around to feeling that too. Rather than just the trickery that you can do”
(Sam Phillips with Elvis at Sun Studios, December 4, 1956)
I think that there are a lot of "singers" who literally cannot sing a proper note to whom a program like this would be invaluable but to my mind, at least, I feel like I am being lied to. I sing, I grew up as a child chorister who had to undergo an audition at age 6 before I was accepted into a church choir in the Hague. As I got older my voice descended into a natural alto and being able to sing harmonies well became even more important. When I moved to this country (Wales) there were no longer church choirs to join nearby but I did do a lot of choral work at school which I loved. We had no pitch correction or auto-tuning and we had to be able to sing well. Anyone singing "bum notes" stood out like sore thumbs and were dropped. Even today (now in my 60s), I still pride myself on being able to sing well, even if it is only in my workshop along with whatever music is playing either on my playlist (which contains everything from opera to rock) or on the radio. In my opinion pitch correction and autotuning is untruthful and should be stopped.
THIS is the video I’ve been waiting for! I’ve long had a negative reaction to them. They always sounded so fake. I’m happy to hear their real voices, though. Thanks, Fil!
Hi Fil,
I had long suspected that Pentatonix was being pitch corrected. It’s too bad their natural voices were not allowed to shine through. They do have good voices. Great job on the analysis and showing both the pitch corrected and non-corrected vocals. Awesome video… Debbie☮️
I love that you do this. I understand that groups, producers, etc do what they do. I've heard these guys (and other artists) in live performances not hit the pitch as they would in a perfect world, BUT I don't buy their live performances as a general rule for this very reason. I love the processed, produced, (whatever you want to call it) versions because it makes my ears happy. It soothes me in a way that a lot of live performances don't. I love this group, but I will never go to a live performance. I don't expect perfection from ANY performance, but personally, I prefer the studio versions 99 % of the time.
I'm really glad to hear what you had to say. I've been saying for several years that everything sounds the same to me and that the harmonies are off somehow. I think this pitch correction may be what I've been hearing. It's really hard for some of us since we had such good music in the 1940s through the 1980s. I was in high school 1966-1970, a really great time for music.
9:04 Love that eye roll! 😀
Really appreciate your work!
Maybe someday these vocal coach reactors will finally address the elephant in the room - doctored vocals. But the cost of alienating the artists fanbases may prevent that from ever happening - idk. Same goes for those vocal competition show clips.🤷🏻♂️
It’s almost like a truth in advertising issue for the public. They put warning stickers about explicit content🤔 Would love warning stickers about computer-aided vocals, and maybe even “clean” versions offered for those of us interested.😆
Grateful for your honest and valuable insights.
Oh yes, the vocal coach not mentioning this, does a harm. And it is difficult to listen to them talking about how to apply your voice to sing a certain phrase or a a note, as well, without saying that the sound is artificial and well just bad. Praising every aspect, although sometimes you can see their facial expression inadvertently conveying the truth.
As a fan (not a Pentatonix fan), I don’t expect perfection from a live performance but it should be darn close! Even though I don’t have the best ear for picking out auto tune, I can hear the irregularities/mistakes during a live performance. With my favorite a cappella group, I can occasionally notice wrong or wonky notes, but there’s a volume control (someone is too loud for their part) issue that isn’t on the produced recording. I’ve been waiting for you to analyze an a cappella group!
Hi Fil. Awesome work! Now I'm wondering if Home Free are also pitch corrected. I've seen them live a couple of times and was not disappointed because there is a quality of sound in an audio booth that is not reproducible live. I thought they were very good live. Thank you for your in-depth analysis of this a Capella group. Having sung in a madrigal group (of 24) with no instruments, I appreciate how difficult it is to sing a complex song with only 5 other people interspersed singing your part. We did win several state and 3-state competitions. The song that we sang to win was "O Magnum Mysterium." I love the natural voice - allowed to be filled with passion, color and dynamics. This was incredible, but also not unexpected. Rock!
I've seen Home Free live as well and also thought they were very good. When I first heard Pentatonix I liked them but when I discovered Home Free I stopped listening to them because I didn't like them in comparison. I feel that there's more personality in Home Free's singing. I wonder if this is why.
@@michelemercier2286 I think maybe so, Michele. You can't pitch correct live, right? HF was definitely not auto-tuned. I could hear the difference, but I was born in the mid-'50's, so I was fortunate to see a lot of great singers live and was not expecting perfection - although sometimes, I got it! The only song by PTX I liked was their version of "Halleluiah" - but I'm sure now that was pitch corrected. Give me the passion, color and dynamics over perfection any day! Thanks for your comment and have a great day. Phyllis
Home free also does pitch correction.
One of my friends love Pentatonix, but I never cared for them. It always sounded a bit boring to me - now I have an idea why.
Boring perfectly describes how this type of music sounds to me. Generic too.
For me it's simpler, I just don't like most acapella music.
The only acapella group that I do like is Home Free and it doesn't matter whether they're pitch correcting or not to me.
Boring? That’s a new take
@@macmcleod1188the extracurricular, audition only Chamber Choir of my high school could sound amazing while singing a cappella.
But they didn’t have any fancy pitch correcting equipment.
My husband loves his Pentatonix recordings… but I find them to be…. Bland.
@tanya5322 the problem for me is acapellas tendency to use Flats and other odd notes the show off their singing skill.. I just find it jarring.
Imagined my old choir pitch-corrected almost made me die laughing
This is one of the reasons I enjoy your videos, I love pentatonix, but it was clarifying to see and hear your thoughts.
I'll clarify though that PTX has never hidden their use of melodyne.
I agree with you 1000%, my ears aren't good enough to hear the difference in pitch from 1 to the other. But to me pitch correction just destroys the emotional impact of a song. I like the good old days before pitch correction.
I didn’t know and I’m only just now learning how to hear the pitch correction. Thank you.
WOW....I haven't listened to them recently, but did quite a long time back. At that time, nobody was even talking about pitch correction, so I had just assumed it was their unique sound.
It's very disappointing to hear now, years later, that I wasn't hearing their true voices!!
Thanks for yet another excellent analysis!!
You hear their true voice when they sing live
they have labeled Official to their studio edited videos to differentiate from live mostly unedited videos. Since 2012.
So it was talked about. And you heard their true voices.
Some time ago, I've checked out videos here on UA-cam that compared Jeff Buckley's rendition of Hallelujah against Pentatonix's version. I was amazed at how content creators and comments were majorly favoring Pentatonix and I really couldn't understand. I thought Jeff's version was vastly superior because Pentatonix's version sounded very "commercial" in my opinion. I couldn't point my finger exactly at what it was. I felt like there were layers and layers of post-production. It was so obvious. Jeff, in contrast, really sounded authentic. I could really hear the pain in his voice when he was singing. I wish they could this video now.
Buckley was a genius and people who can't recognize that have tastes I can't vibe with.
New found appreciation for the likes of the Jackson 5, The Association and many, many other vocal groups of yesteryear that sounded fantastic and were for real.
I don't think it's ... appropriate ... to praise these older groups for being "real" when they had no option. Pitch correction and autotune weren't available until the 21st century. Current artists might be just as talented and skillful, but they feel (or more likely their companies they're contracted to feel) that they need to "clean up" any imperfections that are included in any "real" performance. I'm not defending that stuff; I also would rather hear the "real" voices in the final production.
It never occured to me that there are people who actually think this is unedited. I've always assumed that it was common knowledge that modern music is heavily edited.
Well "edited" is one thing. Even old music is "edited," but it's not the pitch that is edited.
That's why I love watching live videos from audience members at *Home Free* (another acapella group) concerts. I know I'm not getting any pitch correction.
I would love to see a comparison on one of their videos vs a concert or impromptu performance. They did a performance of their original song *Road Sweet Road* on Australian tv during a concert tour over there.
Yes, some Home Free would be appreciated!
I've not heard much Pentatonix, but I can immediately hear the pitch-correction artefacts in this one, which is more glaring when it's a cappella and there is no instrument arrangement that sometimes can make the pitch correction feel right sonically, for instance when you have highly compressed rhythm tracks or strongly EQ'ed bright synth lines and other things that match the sound of a processed vocal with another highly "processed" sound, as you get in modern pop music.
I remember hearing Boyz II Men sing an a cappella snippet during an interview on MTV in the early 90's, and even just recorded through the interview mic, their harmonisation sounded absolutely sublime. I don't think I'd have responded to it emotionally if it was pitch corrected.
The uncorrected Pentatonix performance is lovely.
Good video Fil! I have been to a Pentatonix concert (2023), and they sound amazing live. My untrained ear could not hear any singing out of tune whatsoever. Makes you wonder what all their studio recordings would sound like without pitch correction.
Maybe an odd request for your channel but some classic barbershop quartet harmonies would be fun to see in your analysis.
Always informative. 👍
I agree, it takes something away from the beautiful natural sound when they pitch correct it. I could see maybe, if there were a note or two that's off completely and it's adjusted, but to be doing all of this is awful. Why has everyone been working so hard on their own pitches, when this is going on anyway? Ugh!
Wow! Just watched a whole bunch of your videos! Love your breakdowns and also the older bands you chose to let those younger people know how great they were! Make more! I am "subscribed" do you teach guitar on-line? You play great!
Thanks a lot for doing this. Friends have played their songs for me, and I've figured all along that they were being pitch corrected. One of the same friends also raves about Michael Buble while playing his stuff, and whenever I mention that any of these groups are using pitch correction, he denies it like crazy and doesn't understand how I could insult them like that. This friend has also been a musician for decades. It's super annoying lol
You better show him this then 🙂
I don't know how anyone could NOT pick up that Michael Buble is pitch-corrected - his vocals so obviously have that robotic 'clipping' between words, I'm surprised the engineer doing it is still employed.
@@Maerahn Right? I don't get it. I think people build up these singers in their minds so much that it's hard to believe that they're not perfect.
I was a big fan of the vocal group Take 6 back in the day (late 80's / early 90's). Their sound was mindblowing. A few folks recommended Pentatonix to me a few years ago. I listened but didn't feel it though I couldn't put my finger on why. Now I know. I truly believe deep listeners of music and musicians especially can intuit something less than naturally human and not resonate with the music because of this.
The box of cookie cutters that the music industry uses is way too big. Sad.
the harmonics of a group singing together is so much better without tinkering with the tuning. The gliding round the notes add something to the performance. interesting to hear the difference 👍
The irony is that having removed the natural "chorus" effect from the music the producer often uses an artificial chorus effect to add it back in!
Thanks Fil, again another great video.
Hi Fil! I appreciate this video. I was a little confused as you keep saying it's difficult to find them singing live, there's many videos of them singing live in concert (unedited). But besides that I think you broke this down well and I respect this as a topic- it is important to talk about, industry wide.
I know you aren't intending to use Pentatonix as an exception to the rule so I'm glad that in the beginning you mention that they are among many vocal groups who have this sound now, as opposed to pre-2000s music. I just want to make a few points about what all this actually means as I see people calling these artists frauds or scammers which seems hyperbolic. The question "why use pitch correction on people who can actually sing" is to me not a question for Pentatonix alone but for the entire mainstream music industry. I believe that PTX uses pitch correction software to cater to pop music standards, because it has always been their aim to integrate into the mainstream and not just be thought of as from a "subgenre". Like it or not, over 90% of popular artists now use some form of pitch correction software, its part of the production demands of the industry.
You might say, "well why don't they challenge the industry?" This is a better question but still falls short, as if they had never used pitch correction it's honestly possible they would have never become as famous as they are now to have any impact on the industry. As cynical as that sounds. So they are only doing exactly what most other musicians are doing, even with their talent and competency.
Its also up to us as consumers to ask for the standards to shift and put pressure on the artists and especially record companies and those in radio, etc to listen to our concerns.
I also have been a fan for a long time and have been aware of their use of melodyne for years, it hasn't always been as heavy as it is in the track you analyzed but I do wonder about how far they have over produced these vocals and if it can be scaled back. And yes I understand your point about transparency! I do wish all artists would be able to be transparent about this, but I think the blame seems to fall only on the individual artists when this comes to light instead of on the industry they are indebted to. I wonder if they even CAN step away from these production practices now or if it's not really an option...
I do hear the artificiality of the sound of the vocals.
There’s a question in my mind.
Singers like Karen Carpenter who were quite on pitch naturally on several held notes (during your analysis of her a while back) still carried emotional expression, so maybe being slightly sharp isn’t directly correlated to expression in every case.
What I’ve heard from the producers that have been asked is that the entire industry especially stole the 200s uses pitch correction and auto tune and so a cappella artists (groups) have a lesser chance of getting airplay (without instruments) for their studio recording as against the rest of the industry.
I’ma able to overlook these audio tracks with acted videos as a product.
The true test for me is live performances, since their singing is always (hopefully) natural. As you showed.
Music isn't about the pitches/notes. It's about the intervals between them.
Thanks to you Fil I'm pretty good at spotting pitch corrected vocals 👍🏻 You can hear the perfect, yet featureless notes, all being capped. Let artists be artists !!
For years I haven’t been as enthusiastic about music put out today.Has nothing to do with getting older and possibly changing tastes in music. I have sang with a cappella choirs and solo. I love music!! ❤️ But this idea that everything is pitch corrected really makes sense to me now…. It’s no wonder I feel the way I do. Glad you’re not into that,Fil!
It has been very clear to me that these vocal groups are pitch corrected when listening to them after I have learnt from you Fil. Voiceplay is actually rather open that they pitch correct, but maybe not to what extent. They don't have any external producer, as communicated, Layne Stein, the beat-boxer is the main producer.
I kinda figured this a few years ago. Voiceplay does also, but they have been more transparent recently about their post-production, and I appreciate that.
Well, Melodyne speeds up the process. That's why the vast majority of singers use it in the studio.
If you record a take that is, say, 80% perfect, the studio producer with pitch correct will get it to 100% quickly. Does that mean that the artist can't sing the take perfectly otherwise? No. It means that without the use of pitch correct it might take the singer a bunch more takes until they get it perfectly.
Groups like Voiceplay that are almost exclusively online groups and have a rigid deadline from Patreons to drop a highly produced video each month, plus 2 or 3 shorts in between, need to optimize their time as much as possible.
PTX has been very transparent from the start. They were the ones that started to label studio processed videos since 2012.
They have even admitted that. For excample in their sound mixer Ed Boyer interview.
How the pitch correction is used in main stream music today (and to lesser degree in other music) is not just to fix few, out-of-tune notes, tastefully, to speed up the recording process. Sadly, far more is done. Fixing (un-fixing) notes that to the human ear are not out-of-tune and many, many notes. Everything done, without caring for, or without the knowledge of, or without the musical ability to hear, how a human singing voice works and sounds. With a robotic sound as a cold standard the natural expression and the elements of the human voice is killed.
It's not a question of the singer being capable of singing so "perfectly" without a pitch correction, with more time in the studio. The singer could never sound like that, luckily. Fans often respond to criticism to pitch correction, by saying the singer is just so extremely good, and you should just accept that and enjoy, instead of showing this disbelief of his greatness. But the point is, you are not criticizing the use of the pitch correction because the singing sounds unbelievably good but because it sounds unbelievably bad. The singing sounds plastic, cold, unnatural, just awful.
The funny thing is, that with Melodyne, if you know the software well and you know how a human voice works, you could fix few notes without people knowing (and probably sometimes it's done, you would not know). You can go into a single note or part of a note and how it is link to the note before and after, and change it, but it still sounds natural.
But producers don't want the natural human sound or lack the knowledge to produce that sound when applying pitch correction. Producers want the modern pop sound that is achieved by nailing notes to the pitch and not allowing it to move like a natural voice, killing expression and creating instead this robotic effect. It even seems that some producers don't know what they are doing. That they are looking at the screen and truly thinking that they can use the same method on the singing voice as on other sounds created in the song, and still the voice will sound like a human voice. It's beyond me. I do still believe that most producers know that they are not correcting any real faults in the singing by doing this, not perfecting the singing, but simply achieving this modern pop sound that I hope will go out of fashion soon. Pitch correction is not going away but the way it is used hopefully.
I have to say, hearing people believing that singing "corrected", often even heavily, this way, is a real singing, is to me kind of loosing-faith-in-humanity moment.
Having said all this, the robotic singing sound that is achieved by this method, can work in some songs or part of songs as an effect, an artistic choice that serves the song but not as a way to improve a natural singing. You have to use the pitch correcting tools very differently to do that.
Keep fighting the good fight against pitch correction! 😁
I wish this message could get to the sound & studio producers. I am sure many producers actually love music, but this is ruining it. I recognize music is a business and pitch correction and this illusion of perfection is the current business model in music. But like Fil says, this is corrected to the point where it's not even a human voice anymore - it's basically a keyboard. I hate that we live in a world where because we CAN do something we DO it. Young people who aspire to be songwriters and performers need to realize that they don't have to be perfect right away, and all popular music sounds like this and creates an illusion of perfection that is not attainable. I'm grateful that Fil's analysis videos are growing in popularity.
Ptx singen oft genug ohne Mics und sie hören sich genauso gut ja sogar noch besser an Ptx the goat❤❤❤❤❤und ich glaube das diese Art der Korrektur in jedem proffesionellem MV verwendet wird also so what?
Interesting. My wife _loves_ the Pentatonix, and I think their arrangements are great, but their sound has always left me cold. I've spent years singing in, directing, and listening to choirs, and it didn't occur to me that the Ps were pitch-correcting - I assumed they were overly equalized or that I just didn't like their vocal styling. It's a shame, as it seems like they're good singers! Wish the producers would be more trusting. Not much beats the sound of a good choir or a cappella group!
There's a video out promoting concerts by the Petshop Boys. It's fabulous because (in my opinion) the group isn't using pitch correction, and listening to natural voice singing with its inbuilt variation is a real pleasure - and an incentive to see the concerts. Kudos to the band.
Pitch correction, Auto Tune, Chat GPI for fake songwriting-- the future for music industry is here and it looks bleak, what a shame.
They are prepping us to get used to non-natural singers -- like AI generated voices singing on pitch. Edit: At least it appears to be like this.
I think your right!
So Fil what are your suggestions for letting the groups and producers know we don't want pitch corrected voices?
Fil has a link in the description for a petition you can sign to force record companies and artists to disclose their use of auto tune and pitch correction.
I'm so lucky to have had real music in the 60's and 70's .
great one, Fil!!
I agree with everything. I would like to see an era where music becomes about who is the most HONEST rather than who is the "best." I'd like(not really) to see producers try to fake honesty. Are they going to draft a plugin that creates realistic sounding breakups and make the singer sound like they're weeping? Good luck with that.
This likely already exists, but they will try to get it optimized before they release it. Years ago, programs like “Beat Detective” began to be used to “fix,” drums-to make them more metronomic. Then a new generation appeared where drums were “perfected,” then “humanized.” This, of course, can be (and is) done for all instruments. There are very few pro tracks today that aren’t corrected, particularly in pop music. Soon, AI will be able to “humanize” this kind of sterile vocal to give a pretty good approximation of emotion, manipulated precisely the way the producer wants it to sound.
That really was an EPIC eye roll!!😅😅😅😅
It had been quite a while that I had listened to PTX.
But I had started watching your videos, and was starting to improve my ear for that.
and then last Christmas we put PTX on, and I was like, oh. Yeah. Never noticed that before, but yup, they are pitch corrected and now they sound like keyboards, not humans.
Now run a performance like "Tommy Shaw with Cleveland's EPIC Contemporary Youth Orchestra!" through your pitch correction software and show everyone what a real live performance should look like, and why it is so much better.