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Ian W. Toll, Twilight of the Gods: War in the Western Pacific, 1944-1945
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- This event took place online on March 4, 2021.
The final volume of the magisterial Pacific War Trilogy from acclaimed historian Ian W. Toll, “one of the great storytellers of War” (Evan Thomas). Drawing from a wealth of rich archival sources and new material, Twilight of the Gods casts a penetrating light on the battles, grand strategic decisions and naval logistics that enabled the Allied victory in the Pacific.
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What a wonderful lecture, Toll's trilogy is a masterpiece.
Any suggestions on what you rate as great lectures concerning the Pacific War & what would you suggest 2-3 lectures you find important? I'm a WW2 student. Have been since I was in 1st grade, 56 yrs ago.
@@stevenvassalli2408 I would buy the book series, it's pretty much a complete history. Most of the online lectures are on specific battles or aspects of the war. There is a good youtube series/podcast called "unauthorized history of the pacific war" that is great. Comes out every tuesday.
I have his 3 books and consider him and Hornfisher to be the modern historians on us in the Pacific in W W II. I pulled the trigger on 6 Frigates after looking at it many times while listening to this.
Read all your books….well done! 🎉 bravo
Fascinating lecture. Dr, Toll says he can not see how the outcome of the War could have been any different no matter how it was fought. I would say that is the basic view of most World War II historians. I take issue with this. The Pacific War was strongly influenced by the War in Europe, most importantly the Ostkrieg. The Japanese only dared launch the Pacific War because they believed that the Germans had won the Ostkkrieg. And if indeed they had, the resources available for America to fight the Pacific War would have been substantially reduced.
Did he obliquely reference "The Final Countdown", about the Nimitz gone back in time?
Toll's metaphor of a lost chess game which cannot be ended because it's a war (27:23 to 28:13) is an absolutely crucial quote from p. 773. The Pacific War certainly has in such a manner been lost, for Japan, from its very beginning, given the threat it from Pearl Harbor has posed for Hawaii and other US territories. Toll anyway formulates with a corresponding generality, just inserting the damning verdict, in the book, after his words "The U.S. naval victory at the Battle of the Philippine Sea (June 19-20, 1944) [...] , [...] the conquest of Saipan and Guam [...] ensured Japan's eventual strategic defeat no matter what the outcome of successive battles." Hadn't it been these advances, then others would at some point have ensured an eventual strategic defeat of the guilty side (compare 45:30).
Kurt Zentner in his Illustrierte Geschichte des Zweiten Weltkriegs (= illustrated history of the Second World War), Munich 1963 writes about the Battle of Midway of June 1942: "The war in the Pacific with this - even though it still is going to take three years - is decided." I assume that also an American defeat in the Battle of Midway would still have left enough room for the USA to repel the Japanese onslaught. The Japanese would hardly have been able to conquer much of the American mainland; and an occupation of Hawaii would have enraged the Americans enough to ensure that their war industry would have begun to purr much more effectively than it is known to have done without such a catastrophe. That the USA was sheltered by the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans (44:29ff) didn't only come in as a handy coincidence. It had been well known, all the time, and it must have dampened voices calling for a stronger military buildup - also if this, in hindsight, appears like a brutally reckless treatment of the country's western possessions as a buffer zone. The unconcern will not appear as that brutal, any more, if you consider how systematically the Japanese had hidden their technical progress (44:10ff).
An impression beginning to dominate me ever more is that most, if not all, wars are in such a way decided from the beginning. It much looks as if you only could start a war out of the well-known fact of being the weaker combatant, because you only in such a position can successfully suggest a just cause even if you attack spontaneously (compare 55:01ff). Pearl Harbor will have resulted from such a sanctimoniousness, when Japanese criminals will have longed for an activist prolongation of internal wrongdoing and of wrongdoing in China with the purpose of distraction. Likewise, the German culprits around Ludendorff and Hitler will have drawn the region they were inhabiting into unrestricted submarine warfare against the USA during World War I, into official anti-Semitism, and into World War II because they could not have taken peace after having raped Belgium.
I wonder what will happen when dominating circles act criminally within a polity that's the strongest worldwide. Probably, such a form of decay will _rob_ the affected region of its hegemony. A region will become a leader because it's occupied with creative activities rather than with destructive ones, and it will hold its hegemony only as long as it can act creatively. George F. Kennan in his memoir quotes a US ambassador to Berlin with an early application of such a reasoning to Hitler, to the effect that the latter would have to lose his war because he wouldn't be able to stop anywhere.
The IJN could have sunk almost every ship in the USN on 12/07/41 and by 09/03/45 we would have replaced every one and in certain classes built far more than we had on that date. What Midway did was, baring some Allied disaster equivalent to that, that Imperial Japan was going to loose. The only remaining questions were how long it would take and the price in human life and material.
Toll starts at 5:02.
Guy, get a decent webcam. You can certainly afford one.
If he lives in a rural area like I do it does not matter how good a web cam you have. What matters is the data flow up and down from your dish to the satellite. And also the amount of traffic in your local area pulling off that same satellite. I can remember the first time I had to go off snow off the dish after being on dial up and then cable from 1989 to 2017 was a very surreal moment. Felt like Ice Station Zebra was just over the northern horizon.
Fiction or something on World-War-II intelligence by Toll (1:12:56) I certainly would have to devour. I'm going to order copies of Robinson Crusoe, the rest of the oeuvre of Defoe, and also Stevenson's Treasure Island already earlier, for the sake of a detailed biometrical comparison. After all, Toll's Pacific trilogy already exhibits a weird set of such parallels. Its first volume (Pacific Crucible: War at Sea in the Pacific, 1941-1942) has "Crusoe" and acoustic elements of "Robinson" ("[W]ar [...] Sea in the Besi[fic]...") largely in the title, while the last (on p. 695) provides you with the first names of Stevenson at a most crucial, concluding moment: "His copilot, Robert Lewis, turned back in his seat to look. He shouted wildly, striking Tibbets on the shoulder: 'Look at that! Look at that! Look at that!'"
Not enough bandwidth....which year is he in, 2000?
Such problems can happen when dealing with the Pacific. There is the International Date Line, in the middle of that ocean, and you also have to observe strange phenomena associable to time travel - tackled by Nelson Bond and especially famous as far as the _Philadelphia_ is concerned.