Shounen Isn't For Me
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Or is it? It's been bugging me so allow me to talk about why some of the ways in which people praise the things they like doesn't sit well with me, while also unpacking a way certain audiences respond negatively to the media I happen to enjoy.
This video is edited by Nunmanji, sub to him here: / @nunmanji
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Kakashi's Theme - Naruto OST
A Pair of Idiots - Clannad OST
Doutokutosetsu - Bakemonogatari OST
Beat Wo Awasete Imasugu Ni - Choushinsei Flashman OST
All I Need Is Money! - Hunter x Hunter 2011 OST
Sutekimeppou - Bakemonogatari OST
Action No. 1 - Choushinsei Flashman OST
Mag Wa Suteki Na Adviser - Choushinsei Flashman OST
Sakura's Theme - Naruto OST
Choushinsei Flashman (Instrumental) - Kitahara Taku (Choushinsei Flashman OP)
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Brings to mind one my favourite quotes:
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.~ C.S. Lewis
True
Isn’t he that guy who failed to make a book series?
@@aronestone100 ?? He's most famous for writing The Chronicles of Narnia, a seven-book fantasy series
When I turned 21 I was physically unable to watch cartoons, whenever I tried to watch cartoons the age police will cone to beat me up.
That means I only have one year left to watch cartoons! I better hurry
I have been arrested on multiple accounts of Cartoon Watching by the girlfriend police.
I now live on the Virgin Islands where I can watch them in peace.
@@jasonsilvernail1450 Fear not brave soul. I'll tell you tale until I can join you! Keep watching those colorful drawings to your hearts content!
As they should. Now sit down and smoke your cigarette and drink black coffee!
I cry about farts now
Adults usually don't care about childishness. Children usually are the ones who want to seem as "mature" as possible.
And if something has both a childish appeal and a mature appeal, that's only positive. The truly good series are the ones who have appeal on many different levels.
This. It’s only the immature and childish that want to be seen as mature and adult. If you’re actually an adult in mindset, you wouldn’t give a shit about what society labels as “for kids”, you watch what you like, without wanting to be seen as grown ups
I honestly consider Shonen as something for everyone. Like let’s take One Piece and HxH for example. Both these series have things that appeal to almost everyone. Gags? Yes. Action? Yes. Character drama? Yes. Well written plot lines? Yes. Dark themes that reflect our own world? Yes. Fantasy worlds with many real elements to them? Yes. Both these series cover so much while having dark themes that are over shadowed and made it in a way where it may gloss over little kids heads but someone older may understand what it’s trying to communicate. That’s why the “Shonen is for kids” argument is so dumb.
I mean shonen by definition isn't really targeted to kids in the first place . Shonen demographic is targeted to teenagers between the ages of 13 to 18. Monthly shonen magazines , like jump square , are targeted to 16 to 21 year olds
Children mangas are called kodomo mangas which is targeted to 6 to 11 year olds
@@xblade149 Teens are still considered children.
It's definitely for general audiences, certainly more violent than your Animated film by a Western studio, but plenty of 6 year olds went to go see the Demon Slayer movie and it's a series that has resonated with a lot of demographics in Japan. They are pretty universal stories that all demographics can find somethjng to enjoy.
@@sebastianswan7975 yeah they still minors, but they not like a 9 year old dude. Also teen demographic is still totally separated from children media. Also its pretty obvious chainsaw man is clearly targeted to mid to late Teenagers.
I dream of a day where the Chainsaw Man anime drops and the fandom is able to push back against all this gatekeeping “I’m smarter than you” nonsense
I think the opposite will happen because CSM has a lot of elements to appeal to the "soft seinen" dummies.
I fear the braindead twitter anime fans will say for the 102928th time that unlike all the other shonen, CSM is a deconstruction, or that Makima and Power subvert the shonen heroine, or some dumb shit like that.
if anything I'm betting the uber duper 'big brained' pretentious crowd comes out in droves even more-so lol.
You're a fine dreamer, sadly. It's going to be a massive cringe fest filled with muh soft seinen braindeads.
Most of Csm fanbase is full of teenagers
This reminds me of a video I watched years ago titled "why I like seinen more than shonen" and I couldn't belive someone could still make such massively stupid take only to realise halfway-through that yes, people CAN make arguments this stupid.
Sad to see still nothing changed about that.
There is a lot of ignorance about the manga industry, you also see it with people saying Jump should be 20 battle because other genres are bad. It's only until recently that we only get the entire catalogue of series translated since Scanlators only picked up the more popular ones.
You also have the assumption that Seinen is just series like Berserk, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, Naoki Urasawa, Inio Asano when we are getting a very curated and only the cream of the crop examples of those types of manga. Also you know people don't read anything else after that besides those ones that are the consensus best ones.
@@ew275x believe it or not Vineland saga used to be a shonen
@@ew275x Yep, the western view of all of these demographic terms from shonen to josei is super narrow and basically completely wrong. Looking up to Magical Girls runs in a seinen magazine, and I'd love to see what a "I read Berserk and AoT I only like mature series" kinda guy would say to that one.
@@Ronin11111111 Even better example, Berserk runs alongside Nobunaga no Shinobi in the same magazine. People just kind of assume:
- Shonen is action series
- Seinen is action series but well drawn and even more violent and sexual
- Shoujo is romance series that looks like CLAMP/Rose of Versailles
And it ignores a lot of genres, and the fact that magazines need an array of genres and styles to attract an audience.
See, the rules go: Hunter x Hunter 2011 is for kids because it has colors that pop, accurate character designs and modern anime "laziness". While Hunter x Hunter from the 90s is for adults because it's dark, and dark and dark and lots a blood and my voice becomes Christian Bale's Batman.
Colors are childish. In the real world, everything is grey and saturated
I know you're mocking people like this, but this is a reductive take, as you're ironically discounting the reasons why some people prefer the 90s version and the merits of the 90s version. There are some instances in the 90s version that's handled better than the 2011 version, so I completely understand why people used to the 90s version were a bit dissatisfied with the 2011 version.
@@Manganization Yes, there's a few people with a more nuanced reasoning. But you shouldn't discount that the majority of the vocal bunch really sound like this.
@@D-Havoc thinking about it, you're right
Just because a work of fiction is made with younger audiences in mind, it shouldn't be any lesser for that, regardless of what kind of subject matter they convey in their stories
I hate that this needed to be said honestly, but sadly it did need to be said
Shonen and seinen are for kids. Only true adults like Shojo.
Lol
I only watch Soft Josei like Fruits Baskets and Yona of the Dawn
Amen
@@ew275x Yona as a series is about as soft as Haks abs.
I know its a joke but the whole video is basically against gate keeping like what you just said
5:28 I wouldn't called shonen for children since the targeted demographic is 13 to 18 year olds. Teens. Hell monthly shonen demographic like jump square is targeted 16 to 21 year olds. Either way thank you for addressing this issue
I mean 6 to 8 year old in Japan went to go see the Demon Slayer movie, sure they got nightmares due to the violence, but it is for children.
Generally I've heard 10 through 18 as the typical Jump age range, but it obviously varies. I'd argue though, that teenagers are absolutely still children
@@DanVideos teen media is totally different from children media and besides Japan have comic for kids its called Kokomo mangas that's targeted to 6 to 11 and besides is 18 and 19 really kids?
@@ew275x I mean yeah and? You must have an adult with you in order to see a pg 13 or Rated R movie. Same principle in Japan.
Happy 30th birthday third comment
This whole argument is a big "I'm an adult" -said by a literal child vibe. A lot of kids tried so hard to be or act like an adult, so it's funny how a lot of these arguments are rooted from that idea too. People who tried so hard to act or pretend that they're soo "adult" and only enjoy adult stuff. Which is ironic since the first chapter of One Piece literally painted Luffy the same way. He wanted to be an adult so badly that he stabbed his own face, drink beers and think violences is what adults do. He even ridiculed Shanks for not being "manly" enough because Shanks was acting childish.
Damn, I guess it's just berserk, vinland saga, and vagabond videos from now on. But no fr happy birthday
Hmmm yes this comically gory manga about a stupid 16-year-old who is motivated by wanting to touch boobs is simply too mature for the label of “shounen”. Jokes aside, good stuff. The bit about Madoka really hit me for some reason, and good god did Gravity Falls really end in 2016? Happy Birthday and make another PreCure video before your ancient body withers away.
I think the stance of "CSM is too mature for shounen" comes more from the fact it had a literal double color spread of a lesbian orgy including scissoring. That's something that still baffles me made it to Jump.
@@supermonstars People should really read more things that not from shonen jump like Weekly shonen Magazine and weekly shonen Sunday , they could have a more diverse experience of reading.
Go Nagai serialized his Devilman , an action and horror manga with a lot of uncensored nipples , blood and violent death (weekly shonen Magazine) .
And in Ranma ½ manga , the nipples aren't censored but not sexuslized either (weekly shonen Sunday).
God what a fucking well timed video. Fucking reworking my entire goddamn identity right now and part of that is growing more confident and secure in what I like. Thanks so much Craftsdwarf, been great watching you and your videos grow more well written and more intelligent as the years path.
Honestly i think its most adult to say you dont give a damn what people have to say and you enjoy whatever anime or show you want, no matter who its supposed to appeal too
I like Chainsaw Man, not because it's "more adult" or whatever, I just like it because I think it's good.
I think the soft seinen label is just a reaction to the “it’s good for a shonen” type of discourse. Some people will admit shonen is just a marketing term but continue to speak of it as lesser. But I agree with the point of the video. Happy birthday!
This kinda pointless discourse is exactly why I engage with "anitwitter" as little as possible. I'm just out here tryna like what I like.
Thanks for addressing this issue with another great video and happy birthday!
What sort of confuses me is the notion that only kids like fart jokes. There are plenty of adults that find farts funny, hell me grandpa used to fart and laugh with a huge grin across his face. I personally dont find them hillarious, but they dont bother me either and some can get me to chuckle a bit. This is an obvious statement, but humor is extremely subjective and because of it there will be adults (a huge amount too) that will find fart jokes funny.
Togashi also shows fondness to idol groups like Keyakizaka46 and has referenced them various times in HxH
Togashi is a king for this
This video was a banger Craftdwarf - This is something that has bugged me as well and your video on it really put words on most of my feelings on this subject. great video!
Oh so that's why Chainsaw Man was in Jump when it felt so alien from everything else in the magazine.
@Starless I was thinking more of the blatant casual sex that every other shounen I've read has at best tiptoed around and generally never touched with a ten foot pole. But sure, "dark and unsettling." That's the outlier in the world's most popular manga magazine, whose greatest hits all dabbled in discrimination, murder, war, and genocide.
@@cruelandysthesis6978 I like the casual sexyness of ChSwMn bc it plays into the idea that the people who fight the devils in it are a bit unhinged, they live fast and loose to survive, like when they went drinking with Denji after almost killing him and were like "Sorry man", to which he responds well.
> surprised about blatant casual sex in jump
> also jump manga
> yuuna , (not jump but jump square which is just monthly jump)TLR Darkness and
I find the more interesting discussion is how much value a term like Shounen has at all. If vastly different series can fall under the umbrella term than what value does it serve? Is there value in knowing that it's target demographic at least partially involves young men? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer really it's just a matter of degrees, but the need to try and re-classify certain series as "not really Shounen" is silly for sure.
Well the utility is mainly for the marketers of the magazines, but for us fans its only really useful if you're allready familiar with the current trends of these demographic labels as they change all the time. A complete newcomer wouldn't understand the breadth of styles and genres from labels such as "young male/female" and "adult male/female", and would extrapolate from their own biases connected to those terms.
It's mostly useful to categorize magazines in very broad demographics of who the works are intended for. However it kind of falls apart when while males can get into Prince of Tennis or Mashle, the majority of the audience for those series is female kind of by design.
I wouldn't expect fart jokes in a Shoujo or Seinen series for example though.
That's why I don't ask for knowing if a manga is shonen or not or say if it's a shonen or not.
I only ask or say only if I need to know the magazine it came from.
Happy 30th birthday craftsdwarf! You deserve a good birthday
Dude I never realized how many fart jokes there were in One Piece
The anime adds more than the manga but yeah I was surprised
Franky's Coup De Boo is probably the only fart joke I find funny. There's just something incredible about how he managed to weaponize his fart into a powerful charge attack.
I really want to see him use it in combination with a Strong Right.
To be honest I'm prety sure every single one was shown in this video, it's not very common.
@@Ronin11111111 yea, having like 8 fart jokes over the course of 900+ episodes isn't really a lot
@@1sdani I find the Kinemon one funny because it's a very Oda solution to how a pair of legs could communicate.
Chainsaw man is so good for kids. Because it really teaches the protagonist about love.
He learns how useless sex is without passion.
if I hear one more person call hunter x hunter a ''hard shounen'' I'm gonna explode
HXH is a hared shounen >:D
Me too , I when I hear them.
Tfw you're old enough to get pumped when the Flashman opening starts playing
I think that shows like one piece and Naruto are for everybody, and purple of different ages may appreciate different things about them.
I swear people who use this argument are some of the most annoying people on the planet. The target audience is only a single part of any ip, whether it's video games, TV shows, or anime. Naruto had plenty of themes I never could understand until I got older as grew up along side the series. As a kid I liked Dragon Ball for it's fighting and cool characters. As an adult now I like Dragon Ball for it's fighting, cool characters, amazing character design, strong themes, character development, fight choreography, and it's use of real martial art techniques. Liking something as a kid is much different than liking something as an adult. Just because you've grown up doesn't mean you can't go back and enjoy the things you liked as a kid for different reasons.
Finally an youtuber for us adults with an interesting in adult things
okay but that one Navarone fart joke scene you used for some of the OP footage is genuienly hilarious
I’m glad I’m not the only person who remembers SKET Dance.
You really make some great content
I love this video so damn much.
It's like rewatching spongebob. Characters like Squidward become more relatable.
Great video, but I feel like the title could use some quotation marks, so that people know that you're discussing how flawed this mindset/claim is, instead of the other way around
Saying something is shonen is like saying something is for minors in the west , is it for four year olds or seventeen year olds ?
Didn't expect LvP to be mentioned of all Sentai
Oh
Damn, Flashman playing
To quote Dr Who: " There's no point in being grown up if you can't act childish sometimes"
I'm watching every Anime mentioned in this video, I can't take this anymore...
I'm turning 30 in a few months and that clip very much represents how I feel about it
A lot of this stupidity comes from American culture and how it treats childishness and maturity
you kept on mentioning fart jokes in One Piece. But I hardly remembered any of the examples you brought up lol.
It’s ok, you can say Noralities
Happy 30th birthday also I agree with some points made like shonen not really being a genre and more of a marketing tool towards certain demographics and I agree with the end point that "liking something because it's more adult than what others enjoy is childish thinking and reductive" but I was lost af in the parts where you explain the "it's for kids " argument and why certain uses of that sentence are flawed but why yours is not.
Happy birthday my man
that being said
would you still review fist of the north star?
I was kid when i first fall in love with one piece and i love it still tru this day all media like the MCU & Harry Potter started when we where kids and we still love them till this day. So what i want to say is dont sweat it
4:54 SAKAGOATO DAYS
Oh Craftsdwarf... You're too much... Happy Birthday....
Happy birthday
If I think it would likely traumatize kids I don't think of it as a kids show
brilliant vid as usual from Craftsdwarf, somebody had to say it lol.
4:20 Background Music/Song:
All I Need Is MONEY!
Happy bday and great video
The title and the first part of the video scared me for a second
Surprising your birthday is on Children's Day (which is technically yesterday in Japan)
A lot of what happens in the shows is just the cultural Zeitgeist what's appropriate for someone in America is not the same as Japan but yes these shows are still aimed at young people
14:03 Infinite Ryvius video wheeeeeen!?
Congrats old man!!
SHOUNEN GOATED STORYTELLING
Happy 30th birthday
damn did you really have to roast me that hard? i just thought these series were seinen cause it was what everybody else was calling them.
Half birthday man. Gud vido
Berserk eclipse arc: Guts sad about his friendos.
Chainsaw man: Everyone gets in hell and almost everyone dies, Denji don't give a shit.
Chainsaw man is for kids, whats de mthfkn difference?!
literally nothing
proof
berserk fandom in the west is filled with 75% cringy teens who try to act more mature than they really are by pretending they like deep seinen manga
so yes
CSM is for kids
@@scarlettryuken4320 Berserk is exactly the kind of thing Teens are looking for and enjoying.
They are looking for content that push the boundaries of anything they've already seen , emotional rollercoasters .
That's why it's the period of their lives they start watching Horror movies (and porn) and playing violent video games.
That also why I'm 100% sure that a 3rd of Berserk fans are teenagers between 15 and 17 (and any other Horror , Dark fantasy , thriller manga too).
well ive been into seinen since my early 20ties soo im not fit to judge, but my old men, likes shounen still and thinks my tastes are imature, soo , to each their own
I mean watch both genres personally. Also just because something is seinen doesn't automatically mean its mature or good. For example redo of healer is a seinen and that show is garbage.
@@xblade149 i particulary like redo, because it shows a world with real cruel and fucked up people, and that if people of that stripe are given power, they can abuse inocents turning them into monsters, instead of the whole "normal" narrative media is tending to ,were all evil people only exist in caricatures of the past, and one should never even name those monsters who terrorize the era.
But got ya point, for me , as an example one piece fishmen island arc has one of the best and natural, analisis, on racism, and especialy racism caused by entitlement and victimism, as in the triton supremacists leaded by a roided out ex cop shark
@@brenokv Exactly dude. Also to me personally I find redo of healer funny and over the top , I did enjoy it. In my opinion i say berserk and Vineland are best when it come to revenge stories
@@xblade149 well i love the world of redo, i me self even if i find key to be a broken boy, think that his "you took something from me" need to aquire vengence, in the demon town bogaloo, was disnecessary even for his psyche, a non related person was decent to him, the writer could make this a valid contradiction to his morals, by a sense of duty, not rage, yet still evading benevolence, maybe im being to critical, but hey storytelling can not evolve withougth criticism
@@xblade149 shonen isn't a genre
Happy birthday!!!
Have you considered that maybe, deep down, you do like series and episodes with fart jokes in them?
Great content
Happy birthday!
Happy Birthday Craftsdwarf!
@13:33 my passion really got put into a box. Luckily I want to make a fighting game, and that's a repellent to anyone who isn't a boomer.
Those were both jokes btw
Almost every video from this guy seems to take the most roundabout and long winded way to say something. I feel like I lose the message he’s trying to say because he takes so long to get to the core of it.
Happy Birthday
Good video.
Really good
10:08 I'd say it's a gazeous episode myself hyuk hyuk hyuk
Also, Mabel got deserved flak. She wanted to imprison Dipper in a time loop against his will because he dared want to actually pursue his own interests and not be attached to his sister for the rest of his life. And then when she finds out she literally caused what could be the end of the World, does she ever show remorse for what her selfish actions put everyone else through ?
agreed, Mabel deserves flak for that, she even knew that Bill was still a threat and that they got a shot at beating him
0:09 what is this sound effect from? 💀
I remember hearing it in a whole lotta YTPs.
It's the "Augh" sound from Flapjack
Lmfaooo what do u have against Kin’Emon 😂😂😂 bro is a good character
Have you ever read/watched Kingdom?? If so what you think, if nah i'd recommend it
He likes it.
You share the birthday with the Future King of the Pirates?
very cool
i agree
Time for Kingdom
yo happy birthday
I love you
I'm sorry Naruto and One piece are definitely not just for kids at all, anyone will enjoy them
I fucking love your vids
I'll turn 19 next Month , I suppose I'll have to stop childish shows like Naruto and AOT and start reading deep , dark , gorry manga like Non Non Biyori , Kaguya sama and K-On.
No, you can keep going, it's ok to have dreams.
Your birthday's may 5th?
Isn't that the same as both Luffy and Gon?
Blue lock is gonna get crazy popular soon
The 6th Grade kids in Me and Roboco are shown various times reading Chainsaw Man and the author also loves referencing Hunter X Hunter, so how's that Soft Seinen?
It kind of reminds me of the whole Nier Gestalt/Replicant drama, where people incorrectly assumed Father Nier was the original and Brother was just made for "sex appeal to Japanese audiences" and people acted that Brother Nier being younger inherently made him a worse character who couldn't be taken as seriously as Father Nier.
It's also similar to the monthly Twitter take I see of people wanting "College/Office Persona" because that would apparently instantly make the game more relatable, serious, or mature to adults (also I imagine so they can be attracted to the cast guilt free). A similar take happened with Yakuza 7 that made people go off about how child/teen casts in JRPGs are now bad and now we need older protagonists and characters because no adult can relate to a child/teen cast or characters.
Welcome to the club lol
I think society mainly has a problem with what it perceives to be "manchild" due to interests. And I can't help but feel like someone that is in his 30s (having recently turned 30 myself) that has still the same unevolved breadth of interests he had as a 12 year old does strike me as manchildish. But that's about mentality rather than interests. You can read philosophy books and and wash it down with a moe CGDCT or dumb shonen anime (two of my main pastimes).
The belief that there exists some mental age that everyone automatically falls into (which more often than not entails becoming boring and only caring about career and kids. God, who the hell wants kids) is a spook and it looks like its (hopefully) rapidly dying out with our generation (we are also often called a "Peter Pan" one).
I think it's fine if you engage only with Children's media at an academic, professional, paternal or industry level, like being a children's book author, having kids and watching whatbthey watch, working for Scholastic or analyzing children's books for an academic paper/research/study is fine.
However being like I dunno, Lily Orchard and only consuming children's cartoons at a Doug Walker level does probably mean you are a manchild.
@@ew275x who cares about Lilly orchards. Lilly orchards is hack
I would listen to a Sei Nen Show just saying.
welcome to old.
Gintama a series where u think its a shounen but the genres are Yes
I'm here because I love Fart Jokes.