I blame the Management for putting too much on the controller guy. He had too many screens to watch and the equipment wasn't working properly. Stop putting majority of the work on good employees.
He should have listened for a response though. And told them that his equipment was temporarily not working properly. And he should have called the guy back from break when they came in to work on the equipment. The Russians should have tried harder to communicate. I do feel bad for the controller...the combination of all of it, and it was all on him to handle.
It’s not talked enough about how the air traffic controller was murdered by a father who lost his kids and that father served less than 2 years. This wasn’t even the controller’s fault. How are you supposed to do your job properly with faulty equipment all around you and no help? The fact that most people don’t care that this man was murdered makes me sick to my stomach. Poor guy.
Even the comments dont pity him it seems. That father was hurt and he decided he had to hurt somebody else. Now an innocent man is dead and the father is probably still hurt.
In the case of Peter, I dont think it was quite as simple as most commentators make it out to be. Nobody wants anyone murdered, however Peter had plenty of time to get that other controller back that took an extended break when they started shutting systems down. Anyone with that type of responsibility should be more than knowledgeable enough to call for help from his coworkers in that situation. I personally put a significant amount of responsibility on Peter for not getting the other controller back the instant the maintenance crew started shutting things down. That's just common sense when people's lives are at stake.
@@dafttassia1960 - I think Peter is less innocent than you realise if you consider all he had to do was get that other controller back the second other systems were being shut down. Not a difficult thing to do.
The Russian pilot's final words were ''Murat, I'm sorry ____ ". Murat was the only one in the team who realised that the plane was on the left not the right, he said that they should follow tcas, but the pilots didn't listen. Murat's final words were" I told you it was the left! "
I feel so bad every time I make a small mistake at work. Imagine carrying the burden of having so many lives -esp being children - lost on your watch. My heart goes out to Peter. He was overwhelmed and had no help. This was all such a series of unfortunate events. So tragic.
Peter never should have been left as the only one handling 2 screens and that many planes. Everything was stacked against him. The phones were out, the equipment wasn't working properly and so much more. I can't even begin to imagine how he felt. My heart goes out to all that were killed and their families. The father killing Peter was tragic. It is an entire series of unfortunate events that ended in tragedy.
I think now they made it a set rule that there should always be 2 ATCs at a time. Also, the pilots are supposed to take the airplanes automatic emergency instruction over ATC.
There were TWO controllers on duty. Peter just allowed his co-worker to CONTINUE taking his really LONG break as soon as THEY assumed duty!!!! Rewatch the beginning where we are told all about that!! The horrific tragedy was ALL on Peter!! That poor father got justice for his kids and wife -- the ONLY justice they were ever going to get!!!!
@@suesingleton4927"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5. 43-48. NKJV
I teared up at that part and when the dad found his daughter, and when they interviewed the families and the rest of the show and I NEVER tear up watching death but this, this was different!
It's interesting how there wasn't much emphasis put on the maintenance work. I think disabling the main system without telling the traffic control personnel and then accidentally cutting off the phone lines, while there were still planes in the air that needed that equipment, was a huge contributing factor
@@Nightenstaff They probably should have told the staff what they were disabling, though, and been more careful about not cutting the phone lines. Can planes from one center be routed to another center while maintenance is being done?
@@warrensteel9954 Ah, right, then yeah, I think cutting the phone lines while they were working on unrelated maintenance was a pretty detrimental factor
The fact that the air traffic controller was stabbed to death IN FRONT OF HIS 3 CHILDREN in his home is just devastating. This was NOT his sole responsibility.
And Vitaly Kaloyev, who lost his original family in this plane crash was the one who killed him. He was hailed as a hero and now has a new family and kids which just feels more bitter than sweet. It's really telling that NOBODY- none of the other victims had any support toward Vitaly toward his actions, because they knew it wasn't Peter's fault. ):
Ive watched this episode tons of times, and EVERY time I get a brick in my stomach when Peter realizes he lost both planes, and when the panic sets in for both pilots. One of the most heart wrenching episodes of this series.
@@donaldcarpenter5328 Peters innocent I swear if I hear one more person in this comment section using this guy as a scape goat despite there being no evidence beside the media villainizing him This was a horrible crash but blaming on one person who did what he could isn’t fixing anything blame the higher ups and the stupid laws that let this happen
@@donaldcarpenter5328 Peter is innocent and was exonerated in the official report. He was put in an impossible position. Inaccurate radar with a time lag, no support staff and unable to communicate to know what the DHL plane was doing. The responsibility for the crash rests on the mismanagement of Skyguide.
Man, as a student pilot I couldn’t imagine the horrible feeling of trying to get out of the way of an aircraft only to see it outside of the window approaching at over Mach 1 with less than a couple seconds to respond at most. The gut wrenching feeling of that moment, realizing that no matter how much you train and prepare, in that moment it comes to a couple seconds between life and death. I pray that nothing like this happens to me or anyone for that matter, ever again.
I agree. Plus the other plane was still flying for another 2minutes. I would rather go fast than think about what happened for 2minutes. My sincere condolences to all the families.
@@cathie9614 On the Boeing it would have been way less bad. They died on impact instantly. The Tupolev got ripped apart, exploding, people covered in burning fuel getting sucked out of the broken fuselage, many probably conscious for half a minute at that altitude, many strapped into their seats in a tumbling plane halves. Mid air breakup is 1000x worse way to go than an impact. At least I think so. On the Boeing they had some time to come to terms with it vs. one minute you you're asleep the next falling through sky.
@@goldenlass9488 Well... always obey TCAS... I actually live about 20 km from where the poor ATC guy got stabbed. That was really sad and unnecessary. Really dark mark on the otherwise extremely safe Swiss aviation industry.
I cannot imagine the terror those poor kids that survived the initial collision and had to experience the terror of being in a free falling plane knowing you're about to die. Stuff of nightmares.
If it helps any, they would have lost conciousness almost immediately due to the low air pressure at 30000 ft, and would likely not have woken up before the end.
It's like blaming the janitor cleaning water leaks from the roof of a building for the collapse of the roof, when in reality, the manager of the building did not pay to fix it.
Just imagine if the janitor had pointed this out and decided not to work. Now imagine the dilemma facing the workers at that air controller tower who were given instructions to follow.
Peter had safely controlled lots of airlines all the years at his workstation and just one incredibly terrible accident robbed him of his previous great works and ultimately his life. Peter was innocent but the press kept on pointing accusing fingers on him and this probably gave his killer the justification to end his life. This is really sad. It's unfortunate that it needed to happen to improve sky traffic safety.
This is why I absolutely hate the media. They ONLY focus in the bad things that people do and completely overlook all the great things people do. They create monsters and cause people to get murdered because if anger by the medias veiwers
@@maggienesin2448 Well, this wouldn’t have happened if whomever was operating the ATC site had a much better maintenance plan than disrupting active traffic monitoring with hundreds or thousands of people in the air. Phones AND radar? You don’t even need ATC experience to think “Ummm…what?” when handed that situation. They had no advance notice that work was going to be done on the 2 most vital systems ATC needs, and put in place a plan to prevent disruption? Obviously that was a lethally negligent move in terms of safety, hundreds of times over.
@@SurelyYewJest bottom line this is spot on. Why even bother operating an airport if you turn off radars and phones. Just turn off any lights while you're at it.
Murder can never be justified. Peter Neilson was human. He tried his best despite all the unfortunate circumstances around him. He was a victim too. This whole incident is awfully saddening.
I find it quite unsettling that he made a political career after that. I am able to understand his grief, but I still can’t understand those who voted for an actual murderer
A father lost his family, then a family lost their father. That's heartbreaking. Peter didn't do anything wrong. Skyguide shut off crucial operating systems, Skyguide shut off the phones, Skyguides had Peter to man multiple screens while an ATC officer took his break. Anyone could have been in Peters chair.
Although they say he is russian, he is actually occetian. They have a very bloody vengeance and have a eye for an eye culture. Becareful with people from caucasia and southern part of Russia
ACI (and SFD) has some good actors and most of them resemble the normal people. For this particular case, the resemblance between actor and the person they play are resoundingly close.
Yeah its like death called to them and like everything went wrong that day and called for their life. Like it was meant to be that day and nothing could have stopped it. It was one problem after another like it just had to happen and there’s nothing you can do to control it even if you try your best cause its like written in your destiny like gods plan🥺😔😞
@@GardenGuy1943 As a pilot, there is more pressure, plus it wasn't during a clear day, Plus it would be a 50/50 to climb or descent. But the pilots chose the wrong one.
Another tragic thing to note while I was reading up on it, Vitaly gets hailed as a hero back home because he took Peter Nielsen's life. It wasn't even war and the man gets a medal and the recommends for killing a lone person who was already not only traumatized by the incident but was possibly still dealing with the ghosts of that incident. What a world we live in
Peter was killed in front of his wife and children🥺 He was innocent , There is something wrong in such a country …. The Danes dont understand how they gave Peters killer a medal ! What a primitiv country Vitaly comes from.
Didn't they make a movie about something like this? Aftermath was the name don't remember if it was based on this story or not. Been awhile. Edit: looked it up yes based on this event.
I can’t imagine the trauma he went through after the deaths of both planes, especially him knowing he accidentally killed _children._ the management should’ve been held responsible, not the overworked ATC.
and, as always, they KNEW THERE WAS A PROBLEM IN ADVANCE, like with the Japanese flights, but NO ONE DID ANYTHING. same problem every day here in Murica: endless disasters and crimes and everyone was WARNED IN ADVANCE, but there are no adults on the planet.
It makes me glad the see the empathy for Peter in this comment section -- despite being smeared by the media without sufficient evidence, and proven to have been wrongly accused for the accident. The emotional turmoil that he must have gone through prior to his murder must have been unfathomable.
Media has always been so ruthless, especially of noteworthy events like the death of Princess Diana for so many years ago and current events nowadays aswell
Honestly i don't understand comments like yours. The responsibility is clearly not his, why even go there, it's his corporation Skyguide gross negligence that is responsible, and the aviation committee for not having a protocol in place for TCAS overruling air controllers. Funny how when the mistakes come from far up (the aviation commitee) then the blame disappears, but the people remain dead. That isn't right.
Just the fake-azz, lying, fear-mongering, sensationalizing, lamestream legacy media doing what they’ve ALWAYS done. Oh the irony. The entire media industry controlled by just a couple evil, greedy, disgusting PHONY’S with a horrific reputation of blatant lies and corruption actually condemning a man who had a sterling record up until the very company he worked for begins robbing him of the tools to perform the duties EXPECTED of him in the first place. Surprise, surprise. Smfh.
This is horrible. Practically everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong. My sincerest condolences to everyone affected by the accident, especially all the family members.
Nothing went wrong in the DHL plane. The DHL pilot flew his plane just as he should have. The only thing that went wrong was when the other pilot didn't follow his TCAS instructions.
@@twt65 And the downed phone line....The additional flight..1 controller....Did you even watch the video? They discussed why the TCAS instructions were not followed.....
what if in reality technicians that turned off phones were time travelers that made sure that this plane crashes to save humanity from one of passengers :D
just an average moment of news media people putting all the blame onto someone and dramatizing it all for profit and a good headline while an innocent overworked ATC gets murdered on his own doorstep because of it
@@murakii In the law it's innocent until proven guilty, but in the media it's Guilty until proven innocent but even after your name is cleared they will still try to make you look partly bad or lyibal.
@@jo2832Becuase in the media bis, once you're cleared off any wrong doings, that's it. You get to walk away. Most of the media people hate that and will milk your story dry for their own interest of increasing the ratings of their station, therefore increasing their income. So yeah... It's all about the moolah.
Seeing the DHL pilot trying desperately get the aircraft to land safely while It was clearly plummeting towards its doom and the engine being torn mid air still haunts me to this day
@@kayrinkaj It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Nobody on either aircraft deserved to die; you don't have to sympathize with some people and not others. The air traffic controller didn't deserve to die either.
@@kayrinkajdoes it haunt you? What did you do about it or what will you do? If you’re not doing anything, then you’re less than a coward for just making a comment without backing it up
Who turns things off that is still needed to prevent life or death scenarios?! I don't get that part at all. No backup or temporary system? They treated it like a website being down for maintenance. Just insane!!!
The most baffling part of it all. Tragically makes no sense. I remember reading about this incident years ago and was thinking, why wasn't there any type of BACKUP PLAN if they're gonna turn off the system (and phone lines!) for maintenance repairs!!!???
While that definitely played a part in this tragedy, air control is a 24/7 business. So, no matter what time they would have done the maintenance, it would have still been done during flights.
That they didn't make sure that he at least knew that maintenance was being done was a fault on the maintenance crew alone. The fact that the maintenance was being done without redundant systems to ensure that things worked properly was a fault on the management.
Peter Neilsen was also a victim. Victim of unfortunate circumstance, because everything happened on that period of time, from his colleague taking a break leaving him alone, to radar maintenance, to distraction of another incoming flight. Everything was against him. In the first place, the colleague should have never left him alone so that it would have been prevented at least. He is a victim as much as the people on board on the 2 planes, and even the families involved. They are all victims of cruel circumstances.
They shouldn’t have done maintenance at that time especially when there was only one person that was away from his computer the maintenance caused a delay.
@@stafonvoncamron which comes back to the fact that pilots weren’t trained to listen to their TCAS systems. He was going based off of what he could see, the TCAS system was going off of what it KNEW. They should’ve been trained to listen to TCAS instead of the operator. The fault is in the poor training of pilots in regards to TCAS vs Operator in emergency situations
No one is completely at fault here. The pilots weren’t trained properly to, maintainence at wrong time, 1 pilot on break, extra plane landing, other controllers unable to contact Nielsen. All of these caused this accident.
Pretty stupid that International Air Traffic ‘Rules’ prevent the controller in Germany from talking to the pilots directly when he could get hold of the Swiss Controller. That’s ridiculous. Also another failure that caused this accident. If the German air traffic Controller could have gotten hold of one of the planes pilots this would not have happened.
In this instance it may would have helped, but what if the swiss controller already gave instructions to the other plane, this way the german controller would have send the planes on a collision course again.
too many voices in the cockpit was what actually caused the collide. Imagine a simple scenario: tcas warns you and says climb. You climb. Problem averted. Conflict and confusion caused it.
Tcas has caused tragedies too. I pray they changed the law, so if you see something, you can say something. I'm sure the German controller felt awful..all because his hands were tied :(
@@JeannieLoreneThey did. Now TCAS is the guiding force and pilots are trained to tell air traffic control, in situations like this, that they are following TCAS instructions and the air traffic controllers are trained to know that as well.
I’ve seen this years ago. How can they leave the controller alone and even cut his phones. Management should have been charged with murder. Wish vitali would have gotten the real murderers
@@zeezgaming793 The equipment wasn’t working right as they were doing maintenance, affecting the radar and phone lines. None of this would have happened if another worker was helping and they weren’t doing so much maintenance at once. The higher ups were majorly at fault here, leaving the controller to pick up the pieces on his own.
Why do people assume that the guy who left for a break was management? He was just another controller. Had the accident not happened, Nielsen would have done the exact same thing later that night.
In a weird way he lost more and got more than other parents. He lost his whole family but was able to find his daughter whole and hold her one last time.
My sympathy is with the air traffic controller, no phones, barely any radar, and two confused planes to take care of. Noone should have been in that position.
The worst part is that peter nielsen was murdered by the victims family member, this is utterly disgusting. It was never his fault cause there was another controller contacting dhl. sighhh
I really don't get people who think the blame should lay completely on Peter and that he deserved to be murdered for it. The real thing to ask yourself is if you could do better than him in those circumstances. I couldn't; I'd have probably made it worse to be honest. Everything was against him.
The part where the architect was carrying his daughter after finding her body absolutely ruined me. No parent should ever have to experience pain like that
Oh my God. This is a tragedy beyond words. All those kids. No parent should lose their kids. That poor guy who lost his entire family. That poor flight controller who had far too much to monitor with too little working equipment and in the end also lost his life. I've seen several of these, some were worse than others. This one is the worst yet.
thats why i cant be a pilot, id make a large mistake like this, ruining more lives, i cant imagine how it felt, one second youre a little scared because airplanes can be scary, the next youre falling out of the sky. Rest in Peace
The murder of the air traffic controller absolutely shattered me. Yes the father was grieving, but he CHOSE to hunt this man down and murder him - there's no way to justify his actions. Not even grief.
He had a right to be angry, but he put that anger in the wrong person. Something I try to warn people against after the first time I saw this. Too often people take their rage out on the first person they see whether that person can actually do something about it or not. In this case Peter was simply one of the employees there not the managment that made all those stupid decisions that put him in that position in the first place. I know how frustrating it can be to have a boss above you who acts really stupid but you can't say anything against or he'll just threaten your job. And as a grown adult the father should've realized that too.
This wasn't Peter fault at all. They failed him and everyone else. Why would u leave ya coworker with such a heavy load. This whole situation was devastating
What about the girl sitting next to Peter, couldn't she have helped ?? Maybe she could have gotten that other guy that went on break....Too many variables here
"What about the girl sitting next to Peter" This is rather like one surgeon having to cover for a second, and asking why the nurse isn't performing the surgery on the first's patient. That's not meant as an insult to you, just an explanation. She was just an assistant, without the full training or certification of an air traffic controller. Like the nurse* , she very likely has some idea what's going on, but not the authority to issue control clearances. * Definitely not a knock on nurses, some of whom have saved my life, just that they're not surgeons.
How tragic. I can't even imagine being in this controller's shoes. The guilt he must have felt...Awful. Then they blame HIM after he's been murdered, when they already knew that his screen radar was lagging due to the maintenance guys??? I don't believe he was to blame AT ALL
Well, he did make some bad decisions. The worst one was telling the Russian plane to descend instead of telling them to follow the anti-collision computer's guidance & w/o even checking in with the DHL pilots, who were descending b/c they were following their own computer's guidance. He basically directed that Russian plane directly toward the DHL plane.
@@DonnaBrooks; guess you missed the part that the system was lagging due to the maintenance being done and main and backup phone communications were disconnected: Plus he suddenly was tasked with directing the landing of a third aircraft - 48:37. All this, coupled by the unavailability of nearly all critical communications technology: 48:47 - "...the controller has been robbed of all the technical support he needs". 49:10 - "the DHL pilots cannot tell him [controller] what's happening, because the radio frequency is busy". Also, the DHL's STCA system did not alarm until very late. Pay attention. Not doing so leads to making some bad comment decisions.
@@DonnaBrooks But it's the pilot's decision to follow the AC guidance or not, and to my understanding it's always good practice to follow it regardless of what ATC says
It was heartbreaking to watch the pilots realized their destiny and the controller realized the catastrophic situation. My heart goes to the families who lost their loved one. I couldn’t stop crying when I saw the gentleman lost his entire family, wife, son and daughter. My condolences and hope in time they find peace.
An extra heartbreaking detail is that the DHL craft's last second dive attempt ALMOST worked...but for the tail fin, which ended up dooming both airplanes.
@@travismaxwell9115 yea you do not ever find peace with somthing like this. all you can do is try your best to find a reason to get out of bed every morning
You have to admit as sad as this incident was, the memorials built were incredible. The golden paper airplanes near the graves and the broken necklace memorial: so emotional
@@pattimaeda6097 I feel sympathy to both parties. Peter didn’t mean to kill them, but had to live with it until he was eventually murdered. The victim’s families and communities all suffered great loss. Just an overall sad situation.
He was set to fail by the circumstances that night. 1. The co-worker who took a long break 2. The Maintenance 3. The overload of calls/plane to work on. 4. The system/habit of their company Probably more
@@shaymarie878 it’s funny that you wanted to justify at was 10am but it’s funnier that they didn’t wake up or mind lol . But they were already up what is going on here?
This was one of the saddest stories I’ve ever heard. What a terrible tragedy, compounded by the killing of the controller. RIP to the victims and hopefully some kind of peace for their families. 😢
I remember watching a different documentary of this accident years ago but I still feel the greatest sympathy for Peter Nielsen, it wasn't directly his fault AT ALL. He was just as much of a victim of this whole case as the people on board of both of the planes. Probably the most tragic aircraft accident i've seen.
I agree it’s just heart wrenching, I’ve watched this episode at least 5 times and it never fails to not only deeply effect me, but also I’m stunned by the string of errors and misunderstandings that together to caused this tragedy,
I don’t know that another air traffic controller could’ve done anything different that night. The phones being down, the maintenance, the information being two minutes behind real time, Peter working basically alone, multitasking on two screens with so many flights. Someone was going to be a scapegoat that night, and it was Peter.
Yes, it was. He wasn't paying attention, plain and simple. He didn't even stick around to check that it didn't crash, but went off on to other things. In that moment of crisis he should have made sure to see it through, confirmed an accident had indeed been averted, instead of just thinking it did. See it through completion.
Well it shows children being sucked out the fuselage, falling to their doom. That's is some stark imagery. But what I was most shocked by that they actually showed the body of that girl in the casket. I think that was entirely unneccesary.
@@formdusktilldeath it really really REALLY was. I've watched quite a few of these and I appluaded them for never being gruesome or tasteless in showing actual bodies or actual victims. To show a child in a casket with 0 warning to boot.....cruel...
How could you leave your colleague with such work load when you did know the surrounding working environment is not normal as it's used to, Peter did his best in this messy situation. May his and their souls rest in peace
If only they hadn't gone to the wrong airport and missed their original flight, all those school children and teachers would've all been still alive. R.I.P. to all victims and Peter Nielsen. 🙏🏾
I cried for them all. No one talks about the two men in the other plane, they lost their lives, and also left loved ones behind. Peace to all. This all could HAVE been avoided! If only people who have o
I think they had it worse. Most of the passengers on the Tupolev would have died quickly, either in the collision itself or seconds later when they passed out due to lack of oxygen at 35,000 feet. The DHL's descent took several minutes and those minutes would have been nightmarish.
Absolutely, lot of lives were lost, families w/o children, parent (s). The tcas was working correctly the dhl flight did follow that directive. Unfortunately the other plan realized that to late, followed controller rather than the system. Its ❤ breaking, this could possibility been avoided. Understanding the controller delima, one by one his systems were being shut off for maintainence, not at a good time. RIP all that were involved.
esperanzamorales8354 yes those pilots as well. Thank you for acknowledging them. The dhl flight did what they needed to do, even when realizing conflict with another aircraft in sky, followed there system. Perhaps in other cultures, that may not be the norm. After all this time the tcas system has the final say. The question is, why would they have implemented that feature if you do not utilize it. Hopefully anyone that flies, then or now, hopefully more safe.
Wow! Peter became the fall guy! But there were many unfortunate events that led to this. Peter tried his best monitoring 2 screens at a time plus additional loads plus engineers interrupting him, plus equipments not properly working! Rest in peace to all victims and to Peter.
Yeah, PETER PECKERHEAD WAS AT FAULT !!! ACCEPT IT & QUIT MAKING EXCUSES for those THAT DON'T DESERVE YOUR SYMPATHY!!! SAVE YOUR SYMPATHY FOR THE REAL VICTIMS, YOU ONLY VICTIMIZE THEM ALL OVER AGAIN "white washing" and sweeping UNDER the RUG the GUILT of the GUILTY!!! ATC's MONITOR MULTIPLE SCREENS ALL THE TIME, ITS THEIR JOB, DUMMYS!!!
@@donaldcarpenter5328 Peter had a 2 minute delay, as well as extra workload. There wasn't much he could do as the amount stress he was put under. Nothing to do with race. It 2as a fault of procedures and a line of small events that lead to this.
@@krismwah5388 idiots bring race into conversations when they have no legitimate argument or opinion. But, i have absolutely no clue why the hell he even brought race into it is beyond me lpl
I have never had a job where "lengthy breaks " were acceptable. Maintenance had his phones down, the screens were far apart and he tried to call another controller center to help but couldn't grt through. His coworker was having a leisurely break. He was in a no win situation
Peter, an experienced ATC needed help that night. He was over burdened since his colleague took an extended break leaving him to monitor the entire air space on two screens and face a series of unforeseen events, with equipment down including disabling short term collision alert, and phone lines down. Peter was not responsible for this tragedy!t The first blame is on Skyguide! Skyguide should always have had two controllers on duty in case of unforseen events. RIP Peter Nxielsen.❤😢
My condolences to all family and loved ones of those who lost their lives in this unfortunate accident. I concur that Skyguide is the 1st to be at fault in this situation w their poorly designed maintenance procedures!!!! Peter was NOT Negligent. The equipment at his station that was under maintenance is at fault which means Sky guide management & maintenance procedures are at fault. Peter should not have been the fall guy. May he Rest In Peace. Again, my condolences to all family & friends of all who died in this tragedy.
Equally responsible is the international standards organization that dragged their feet on making a procedure revision after several glaring close calls leading up to this accident. That should have been a major warning bell that there was not general consensus around the world on ‘who/what has the last word’ on collision avoidance. Personally, I feel that one meeting lasting maybe 30 min should have decided how to handle this and send it out across the globe immediately.
@@grumpyengg5978 I remember reading about the collision avoidance controversy and we have to wonder why after two near misses, the International Standards Organization did not make a decision immediately on this important issue! We could all be stepping on some ill-fated plane due to negilent decision making such as this. Read Mary Schiavo's book: "Flying Blind Flying Safe."
Well, it's Skyguide. This air service provider is directly responsible for this crash. They did such poor coordination of their maintenance, allowed one of the controllers to go on extended break? What the hell is that? So on his paid work shift he's allowed to go off work for a long time and goof off while planes are crashing into each other? This was sheer criminal negligence.
Absolutely, the chain of events reminds me of that movie "Final Destination"... There are no accidents but a chain of events that contribute to a major disaster, the kids missing their original flight due to the travel agency's error, the maintenance and overloaded controller, the russian pilots and their decision to obey this controller, the controller not contacting the DHL... Such a sad event... my prayers to all the families who lost a loved one
I understand the father's pain and my heart goes to all the victims families and friends but for me, Peter is also a victim because of a faulty system. No matter how fulfilling it is to get ur revenge, don't ever correct a mistake with another mistake.
I semi agree with your comment, however every person has a different mindset as to whats right and what's wrong. Even though the laws in place may disagree. If your entire family was killed because a controller was too stupid to call for help when they started shutting systems down, then I place most if not all the blame on Peter. Now I'm not condoning murder however some peoples minds go to a different level when their entire family is killed and I honestly think that an eye for an eye was justified. If you can live with forgiving someone that killed your entire family, then you'd better hope your dead family members forgive your decision. Especially when they look down on you living without avenging them.
stop blaming the controller. Just by your comment, you sound you are too stupid to even be able to do the job of ATC. Being overloaded in work isn’t always obvious. It was busy sure, but I am sure he felt like it’s fine he can handle it at the time….humans often face uncomfortable situations that they CAN handle. We know NOW that it was too much for him because we know the results of the impact. However, you have to remember to put yourself in HIS shoes at the time. He also didn’t have anyway to contact anyone for help. The phones where down. WHICH IS A CRITICAL FAILURE. Sometimes you have to remember that more important that blaming a person, you have to verify the systems and checks in place. Humans WILL make mistakes, it’s inevitable. It’s about how do we do it to ensure that those mistakes are caught early on and rectified.
@@Scott-G11 The Air Traffic Controller did try to call for help, but the maintenance techs had accidentally cut the backup telephone lines as well as the mains while they were performing maintenance. Peter was left with no way to call for help.
I had no family in this crash nor knew anyone, yet I am horrified that anyone, relatives as well, had to suffer this. Tears are rolling down my face as I watch the devastated father. This is heartbreaking beyond any words I could ever come up with.
@@drabnail777 i wouldnt have been upset if the controller was a murderer or something, but he was innocent and was killed in a brutal way in front of his wife and kids. I do get the pain of the guy, but that was too far.
I remember someone said the reason relatives are not allowed to see the bodies is so they don’t remember them in that state. So that they are always a whole smiling person, not what the accident did to them.
No it's not. Did no you see the story? the reason for Peter's death was the father who picked up his family dead bodies. This is why you do not want the families to see parts of bodies in that condition, people won't be able to get it our of their minds and will snap just like it happened here. The Police should of never allowed him to go anywhere near the sites or the bodies.
@@danfuerthgillis4483 that’s literally what I said. You need to reread my statement. Also, the man didn’t get revenge because he saw his dead family’s bodies. If you think the only reason he wanted revenge was because of that, you’re delusional.
@@nothereforit.605 Read my post again moron that’s practically the whole point when 2 parties are involved. This is stop the people from going after the other parties. If you have some police background this is accident investigation 101. If there is only one party involved the police will show items from a crash. If you think it’s normal for someone to go on after they just picked up the body of their kid that fell from 20,000 feet you are really silly. The police were stupid for allowing this person to walk into the crash site and pick up the bodies, it is from the site of his kid that he lost it and flipped out. The other family members were not shown anything so the only memory they have is from previous pictures taken. You don’t show grieving family members distraught scenes like this. The mind can’t take it and they look to far for an answer.
Come on the makers of the movie make it as much as possible sympathetic on this side, and subtly turning the attention to the Russian pilots. Even if it is striking the mission of the video is to level things.
I would like to ask for a minute's attention for the volunteers who removed the bodies from the crash site. This must have had a huge impact on them as well, especially since so many of the victims were children.
The man who found his tiny daughter and lost his ENTIRE family. I can’t. And if anyone was charged, it should have been his superiors who allowed the work to be done!
I have almost no sympathy for that man, if you can even call him human. He murdered Peter in front of his wife and children. Peter had done what he could with the information and equipment and attention he had and was completely innocent. The architect still brags about murdering him to this day and was celebrated as a hero in his hometown.
@@retrotasticular1642 peter definitely shouldn’t of passed away like that, infront of his family, but imagine losing your whole family, your babies. i completely see where the fathers anger is coming from.
@@sonic3205bro do u know the amount of stress that comes from knowing the fact that u caused many people to die? id say having to live with that stress and then getting murdered in front of ur family is really bad. sure there are people who lost children and loved ones which i really do feel bad for them people who lost their children. but the person who murdered peter is hardly a human. like its basic elementary school knowledge to forgive for other people’s mistakes, even if they caused ur family to die. just cause ur angry doesnt mean u can kill others. u just sound like a spoiled kid
@@idkwhattoputhere5503 alright if it happens to your family id like to see you go up to man, after carrying your young dead daughter and say ‘ i forgive you 😀’. i absolutely never said peter should’ve died at all , and i do agree that the man should’ve gotten the normal sentence for peters murder , and never been awarded a hero . losing your whole family under those circumstances can make someone go insane, blaming whoever they can and that could’ve happened to him, to the point he didn’t get the help he needed before he got to peter and committed the murder, not to mention i don’t know anything about this unless it was in the video so i’m going off of how i took it by ONE video, ill look into it way more to see the other articles. i promise you i ain’t no spoiled kid but i cant even imagine finding out i lost my family, adding on ACTUALLY finding them.
i don’t think i’ve ever cried watching one of these but this one? i’m sobbing 😭 all those kids had their lives ahead of them, their families must’ve been so devastated
This is one of the saddest episodes ever. May all victims, including Peter Nielsen, RIP. Thoughts and prayers to the families and friends. My heart especially goes out to the architect. I know he was the one that killed Peter, which was horrible, but could you imagine the grief that he was going through? He lost his whole family.
@@sherrylockhart7337 I disagree. The atc was not to blame, he would’ve paid for it in the guilt and trauma. To take his life wouldn’t cause relief or relieve the anguish. Taking another life can never bring back the dead. Who said it was okay for him to commit this murder?
@@minecraft8587 You just said 'wasn't he the murderer' in order for it to be murder it had to be intentional, this wasn't intentional. While I do agree that he bears some responsibility, in no way does that mean he should've been MURDERED by another person. He wasn't the murderer, the other person was.
Damn, this is one of the saddest things I've ever seen... Such an unfortunate chain of events. RIP all of the victims, the best for their families, and peace for Peter Neilson. 💔
I honestly feel mostly bad for Peter He first had to realize a mid-air collision happened, that is pretty traumatizing Then he dies because he gets murdered :( I think he had a wife and kids (unsure), so thats the worser part ;( May he rest in peace
I’ve seen dozens of these videos, but this one gave me absolute full bodied chills. Childrens bodies found around a school for the disabled? Absolutely heart breaking. As well as the live footage of the memorial site. Bless those souls. Edit: GOD THE WOMAN PLACING LITTLE COOKIES DOWN ON THE BOYS GRAVE.
This is probably one of the most dramatic episodes of Mayday, and of course, one of the most tragic of air accidents I've ever known of. The chain of events that led to the tragedy is almost diabolic. I am surprised that Hollywood or Netflix or HBO or some other network or producer or writer hasn't picked up on this tragedy and made a portrayal of it, or at least not one I know of. Easily a movie or a 'Chernobyl' quality miniseries can be drawn out of this tragic event. This story deserves to be more known.
Actually there was a film made called “Aftermath”. I never saw it, but it was mentioned on another channel. It was about the Russian father who lost his children and wife and blamed the Air Traffic Controller for the tragedy. I might have to watch this one now.
I'm not sure it should be more widely known unless any future TV programs don't mention anything at all about exactly what flight it was and/or make every single component accurate but realistic fiction or dramatized or whatever. The families have already been traumatized enough. They don't need anymore direct or indirect reminders or coverage of any kind
I've watched a lot of Mayday/Air Crash Investigation, they've covered a lot of tragic and horrifying cases with much higher death tolls, however this episode of Mayday about Uberlingen takes the cake for the saddest episode.....
Another example of the media taking a snippet of information, not waiting for full investigation and destroying a life for views. So many failures at so many levels, with so many to blame yet Peter got stuck holding the ball, basically blind as to what was happening in real time due to maintenance and handling it the best he could. Lack TCAS training for pilots, even with so many prior close calls, ultimately proved fatal. My heart breaks for all involved.
to me...the ONLY reason why this collision happened was that maintenance shut down critical and vital tools required to manage the flights. How can anybody think of doing something so dangerously stupid. IF all the software and tools were working, including the phones, Peter Neilsen could have managed. He had vital tools taken away from him. How can anyone lay any bame on him.
if only one of the flights were 2 seconds earlier.. or later. or 50 meter higher.. or lower. or they'd have the same priority with atc/tsac command. or the controller wasn't alone. or he didn't get busy with another flight. or the system was working. or the sun rose on the west
@@user-wq9mw2xz3j Russian pilots being trained that TCAS has the highest priority is probably one of the best changes to increase airplane safety that has ever been made, besides TCAS itself. I have not found a single accident since then of 2 planes colliding mid air since this incident, unless only one of the planes had TCAS.
If the tourist agency in Russia had taken the kids to the right air port to start with, this wouldn't have happened. It was a total system failure, not just 1 thing.
As a guy living in Friedrichshafen germany (a city 20 minutes away from the crash site in Überlingen and the location of the ATC, which the pilots talked to before) I can say, my uncle (a firefighter of the local fire department) was completely distraught, when he picked up a toy bear of a kid, which was aboard the plane.
Hello! I got to be in your city accidentally last year as I was having a flight from Dubai to Stuttgart, but it was changed to Friedrichshafen because of the strike at Stuttgart. And I was born in Ufa where I’ve lived for the most of my life. What a coincidence…
There's just so many mistakes here that eventually created the perfect recipe for disaster. 1. The controller shouldn't have been left alone to check on both traffic screen that is FAR from each other. Even if the other controller wanted to take a break, shouldnt have taken a lengthy break. 2. They shouldn't have been doing the maintenance that caused a late response when Peter was the only one controlling. 3. Peter was already taking care of both screen at once, why would his workload be added more that distracted him even more? 4. The aviation law should have a uniform law about whether to listen to the TCAS command or the controller's command. All in all, I hope Sky Guide learned from their mistakes and inforce more strict rules now.
The captain had a good point when he said TCAS announcements are monotone and the ATC commands sound more urgent. It sounds like something small, but when you have seconds to make a decision, it is easy to see how the more urgent command would win out. I trust aviation protocols are internationally uniform. You can't have one country's pilots listening to TCAS and the neighboring country's pilots prioritizing the controller.
AND the telephone line should not have been disconnected! Had he been able to complete the call (tried THREE times), it might have made the difference even with all else going wrong.
For Peter's situation sitting in that chair knowing that too many people died while he's working that disturbance will haunt him for rest of his life even when it's not his fault entirely
This episode just genuinely made me cry, there were probably kids screaming for help when the planes collided and the dad praying when he found the pearl necklace i just broke down into tears.
This has to be one of the most tragic accidents they’ve covered. The children. The controller. Those poor pilots and passengers. The families. The murderer. It’s just so horrible.
I remember watching this for my aviation major courses. This has always been one of the saddest stories to me, Peter, the crew, and passengers on board never deserved this.
Just imagine the trauma Peter goes through every night thinking about the collision he could have avoided and the lives that have lost cause of him. i pray to give him peace
No...he was not the cause of this...too many factors led to this tragedy... unfortunately they needed a scapegoat which led to his death..the controller who left his workstation in the first place should have actually been honest enough to admit his role in this tragic loss of life...😩🌸🙏
The father who killed Peter didn’t serve much time, has since remarried and has 2 children. I’m happy that he’s found some peace and happiness, but what about Peter’s family? Is beyond tragic.
I pity the controller the most. He had to live with the blame and guilt for the death of innocent children. He probably had nightmares every night and every day was just reporters harassing him. The problem is a systemic issue both in the industry itself and the airport he worked in. It could have happened to literally any other ATC. As they said here, it almost happened to at least 5 others! And Peter paid for this with his life.
I know right! The man was set up. Not purposefully but just by the chain of events that had to happen. Fate really had it out for him. I bet it was horrible!
Tbh the media deserves severe condemnation for this too. Especially in the aftermath of 9/11 and the newsworthiness of air disasters, horse race journalism really smeared this guy and agitated a grieving man to murder.
Vitaly Kaloyev just murdered him in front of the family, wife and children of the air traffic controller. Ridiculous that he just served a few years in prison for that.
There is no good time to do maintenance on such systems there are flights in the air all the time it just happened to set off a chain of unfortunate events
I've watched this documentary so many times and something about the seconds before impact is really saddening to me. Both sets of pilots were not in the immediate collision, meaning that they did not instantly die on impact. One plane, pilots were sent in a free fall before losing consciousness. The other plane, they watched in horror as their controls did nothing and the plane had no chance of landing. Imagine being on that plane and struggle to keep dozens of peoples lives safe when you know death is happening no matter what. It's very chilling, and I think the actors of the pilots did an amazing job playing the roles.
I just got off one yesterday after a long trip, and once we headed out I decided to watch these videos. I have to say, I felt really safe on the plane especially for it being my first time flying, but after watching this, I feel like I would get a panic attack everytime I see one.
All these accidents / incidents, including this one, they're all in the past, and led to the aviation safety today. The conclusion of all my binge watching was that aviation safety regulations are written in blood, lots of em, and all pilots are professionals, they never give up, and unrelenting in their drills. I'm about to sit on an airplane on 31st July after watching all that, I will use the knowledge to appreciate aviation safety as much as possible.
@@lilycha9398 it's illusory, in a plane your only 15 minute to a crash with the ground at any time during the flight. There are plenty of air catastrophy in the making.
"The Plane is full of School Children"....That line hit me like a Ton of bricks...Father carrying his perished daughter is Heart wrenching...Maintenance who came into the Control room gets no blame?
There were only two people in charge of the screens and one of them took a 'lengthy break' leaving the other person alone? Sure, seems fine. What could possibly go wrong.
Even if that flight controller was intentionally negligent, he didn't deserve to be murdered in cold blood. As it stood, he was overworked, using faulty equipment and those factors culminated in a tragic accident. The actions of Vitaly Kaloyev and more importantly the people who honor him as a hero are disgusting. EDIT: As for who's at fault, that's obvious: the management at Skyguide. If you're doing maintenance on the radar, the absolute minimum precaution you should take is to hand over traffic to another station for the duration of the maintenance. And if something as crucial as phone lines are not working, then they should absolutely have another ATC take over while things get sorted.
The fault is in the training of the russian pilots. At the time russian pilots were the only pilots in the world to be trained to follow air traffic control if atc tells you something and tcas disagrees. The rest of the world at the time and today russia as well, pilots are trained to do what tcas says regardless of what atc says. Its just like a stick shaker or the ground proximity warning. You climb when it says climb and you descend when it says descend.
@@Slaptop. No that explained the procedure, the training itself was never shown. Just because the rules say the training must be done that way doesn't mean the training was actually done that way.
"Most outstanding teenagers." Can you fathom a world where all these kids grew up to be incredible adults doing wonderful things for this world? That guts me more than anything.
1 person in control of the whole airspace... even a 10 year old would tell you that's a terrible idea.
yes
Im 10 and i agree
im 9 and i agree
I am 8 and I agree
I am 0 and I agree.
I blame the Management for putting too much on the controller guy. He had too many screens to watch and the equipment wasn't working properly. Stop putting majority of the work on good employees.
I agree
Yeah, if anything the guy who left was more at fault
Exactly
He should have listened for a response though. And told them that his equipment was temporarily not working properly. And he should have called the guy back from break when they came in to work on the equipment. The Russians should have tried harder to communicate. I do feel bad for the controller...the combination of all of it, and it was all on him to handle.
He put the work on himself by allowing the other controller to leave to smoke a long joint.
It’s not talked enough about how the air traffic controller was murdered by a father who lost his kids and that father served less than 2 years. This wasn’t even the controller’s fault. How are you supposed to do your job properly with faulty equipment all around you and no help? The fact that most people don’t care that this man was murdered makes me sick to my stomach. Poor guy.
Even the comments dont pity him it seems.
That father was hurt and he decided he had to hurt somebody else.
Now an innocent man is dead and the father is probably still hurt.
In the case of Peter, I dont think it was quite as simple as most commentators make it out to be. Nobody wants anyone murdered, however Peter had plenty of time to get that other controller back that took an extended break when they started shutting systems down. Anyone with that type of responsibility should be more than knowledgeable enough to call for help from his coworkers in that situation. I personally put a significant amount of responsibility on Peter for not getting the other controller back the instant the maintenance crew started shutting things down. That's just common sense when people's lives are at stake.
@@dafttassia1960 - I think Peter is less innocent than you realise if you consider all he had to do was get that other controller back the second other systems were being shut down. Not a difficult thing to do.
@@Scott-G11 Why weren't you doing this?
It's really so sad...
The Russian pilot's final words were ''Murat, I'm sorry ____ ". Murat was the only one in the team who realised that the plane was on the left not the right, he said that they should follow tcas, but the pilots didn't listen. Murat's final words were" I told you it was the left! "
I’m sorry too Mr Pilot. You tried your very best. We just have to accept what happened. It’s not your fault. Rest in Heaven
Crazy to think one's last words are the equivalent of "I told you so"
all the kids...rest in our creators arms😢😢😢
actually it was "AH! (Murat!!!) AH... UHH!!! AAAHHH.... UHH..
😮😮
His managers should be charged. Leaving him alone, over loading him, cutting his phones. This isn't all his fault.
In more ways than one, they are responsible for the deaths of the pilots, the passengers, and Nielson himself
i agree
on top of that, he over-paid with his life.
I think they were and some served minor prison time
Indeed. What a travesty of justice.
You know it’s a sad episode when they don’t have any pilots or survivors being interviewed during these episodes 😩
It’s really rare to survive a plane crash it’s either all or none ….
@@vdb000 thanks Billie, we didn’t know that
@@vdb000 in the past, that statement is correct. But in current time, most plane crashes are never fatal.
@@siforical mostly...
I'm actually waiting for Peter to be interviewed (because he's not in one of the planes) only to be found out that he was murdered..
I feel so bad every time I make a small mistake at work. Imagine carrying the burden of having so many lives -esp being children - lost on your watch. My heart goes out to Peter. He was overwhelmed and had no help. This was all such a series of unfortunate events. So tragic.
at the end it cost also his live. A father of children shot him at his home. (((:
@@Gerbert66 stabbed to death actually in front of his children and wife, it was committed by the architect they feature in this program...
Do you have children?
Are you kidding me?? He should have advised both aircrafts.
@@Gerbert66, He wasn't shot he stabbed him. Didn't you see the video?
Peter never should have been left as the only one handling 2 screens and that many planes. Everything was stacked against him. The phones were out, the equipment wasn't working properly and so much more. I can't even begin to imagine how he felt. My heart goes out to all that were killed and their families. The father killing Peter was tragic. It is an entire series of unfortunate events that ended in tragedy.
How many planes did you count?😏
@@Invictus_. 1 + 2, so many 😱
I think now they made it a set rule that there should always be 2 ATCs at a time. Also, the pilots are supposed to take the airplanes automatic emergency instruction over ATC.
There were TWO controllers on duty. Peter just allowed his co-worker to CONTINUE taking his really LONG break as soon as THEY assumed duty!!!! Rewatch the beginning where we are told all about that!! The horrific tragedy was ALL on Peter!! That poor father got justice for his kids and wife -- the ONLY justice they were ever going to get!!!!
@@suesingleton4927"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5. 43-48. NKJV
It was "normal practice" to have 1 person be in control of MANY AIRPLANES!?!? Poor man was set up for failure, then was murdered. That's so sad.
Such an amount of stress then make such a stupid mistake with such heavy consequence. Poor guy.
He should have been more attentive then
@@muhammadmohsinfarooq2891 first do the same thing under the given circumstance then talk. Lol
@@muhammadmohsinfarooq2891 🤡
@@dingdong_69 your mum
"My life didn't change, it stopped" that completely broke my heart! So sorry for all the families.
Yes, Imagine losing all your kids. The man wouldn't mind spending all his life in jail for killing the Air Traffic Controller.
She also said, "Everything that was good is in the past."
I teared up at that part and when the dad found his daughter, and when they interviewed the families and the rest of the show and I NEVER tear up watching death but this, this was different!
Same here. 😔💔
@@triple_five_soul6439 There's something about tragedies involving children and seeing parents grieving that breaks me.
It's interesting how there wasn't much emphasis put on the maintenance work. I think disabling the main system without telling the traffic control personnel and then accidentally cutting off the phone lines, while there were still planes in the air that needed that equipment, was a huge contributing factor
There's always planes in the air. You aren't wrong, but there's never going to be a good time to do maintenance on these types of devices.
@@Nightenstaff They probably should have told the staff what they were disabling, though, and been more careful about not cutting the phone lines. Can planes from one center be routed to another center while maintenance is being done?
@@puppylover369 The phones were cut so the ATC couldn't hand the planes off to another center.
@@warrensteel9954 Ah, right, then yeah, I think cutting the phone lines while they were working on unrelated maintenance was a pretty detrimental factor
In reality this should never happen.
The fact that the air traffic controller was stabbed to death IN FRONT OF HIS 3 CHILDREN in his home is just devastating. This was NOT his sole responsibility.
And Vitaly Kaloyev, who lost his original family in this plane crash was the one who killed him. He was hailed as a hero and now has a new family and kids which just feels more bitter than sweet. It's really telling that NOBODY- none of the other victims had any support toward Vitaly toward his actions, because they knew it wasn't Peter's fault. ):
@@happyvocalhow do u know none of the victims families supported him?
@@brennathecatlover4360
S*** response to support murder.
Absolutely horrific and the suffering goes on
Imagine being Peter's colleague walking in at 20:56 and realising that a mid-air collision happened partly because you left your post.
Unbelievable pain for all the people family involved on this horrible accident.
Absolutely! Why in the hell would the other controller be allowed to go on a lengthy break without proper coverage? An extended break? WTF?
@@littleogeechee223
They didn’t go on break at the same time.
Yes, watched it again and caught that it was just the one colleague with him....
@@littleogeechee223
Correct.
Ive watched this episode tons of times, and EVERY time I get a brick in my stomach when Peter realizes he lost both planes, and when the panic sets in for both pilots. One of the most heart wrenching episodes of this series.
WAH, WAH WAH for PETER, PUCK PETER!!
The MOVIE puts him like that. It's fiction
@@donaldcarpenter5328 Peters innocent I swear if I hear one more person in this comment section using this guy as a scape goat despite there being no evidence beside the media villainizing him
This was a horrible crash but blaming on one person who did what he could isn’t fixing anything blame the higher ups and the stupid laws that let this happen
@@donaldcarpenter5328 Peter is innocent and was exonerated in the official report. He was put in an impossible position. Inaccurate radar with a time lag, no support staff and unable to communicate to know what the DHL plane was doing. The responsibility for the crash rests on the mismanagement of Skyguide.
@@lenasauve3660 This event happened in real life. It's a movie of the actual event that transpired.
Man, as a student pilot I couldn’t imagine the horrible feeling of trying to get out of the way of an aircraft only to see it outside of the window approaching at over Mach 1 with less than a couple seconds to respond at most. The gut wrenching feeling of that moment, realizing that no matter how much you train and prepare, in that moment it comes to a couple seconds between life and death. I pray that nothing like this happens to me or anyone for that matter, ever again.
I agree. Plus the other plane was still flying for another 2minutes. I would rather go fast than think about what happened for 2minutes. My sincere condolences to all the families.
@@cathie9614 On the Boeing it would have been way less bad. They died on impact instantly. The Tupolev got ripped apart, exploding, people covered in burning fuel getting sucked out of the broken fuselage, many probably conscious for half a minute at that altitude, many strapped into their seats in a tumbling plane halves. Mid air breakup is 1000x worse way to go than an impact. At least I think so. On the Boeing they had some time to come to terms with it vs. one minute you you're asleep the next falling through sky.
@@221b-l3t The stuff of nightmares!! 😱
@@goldenlass9488 Well... always obey TCAS... I actually live about 20 km from where the poor ATC guy got stabbed. That was really sad and unnecessary. Really dark mark on the otherwise extremely safe Swiss aviation industry.
@@221b-l3t The murder of that man is a horrific injustice! This video had me crying.
I cannot imagine the terror those poor kids that survived the initial collision and had to experience the terror of being in a free falling plane knowing you're about to die. Stuff of nightmares.
Did u see the other kid fall out?
This is why I hate flying over the Rocky Mt. Air pockets can make planes drop about 20ft without warning. It's terrifying.
If it helps any, they would have lost conciousness almost immediately due to the low air pressure at 30000 ft, and would likely not have woken up before the end.
It's like blaming the janitor cleaning water leaks from the roof of a building for the collapse of the roof, when in reality, the manager of the building did not pay to fix it.
Good example 👍🏻
FACTS💯💯
how did they miss the other plane. evrey one is dead.
Just imagine if the janitor had pointed this out and decided not to work. Now imagine the dilemma facing the workers at that air controller tower who were given instructions to follow.
Hot dam.
That is a good example.
Peter had safely controlled lots of airlines all the years at his workstation and just one incredibly terrible accident robbed him of his previous great works and ultimately his life. Peter was innocent but the press kept on pointing accusing fingers on him and this probably gave his killer the justification to end his life. This is really sad. It's unfortunate that it needed to happen to improve sky traffic safety.
This is why I absolutely hate the media. They ONLY focus in the bad things that people do and completely overlook all the great things people do. They create monsters and cause people to get murdered because if anger by the medias veiwers
I was thinking of a comment I post, but your comment, at least for me, captures my sentiments. God have mercy on all of the deceased.
@@maggienesin2448 Well, this wouldn’t have happened if whomever was operating the ATC site had a much better maintenance plan than disrupting active traffic monitoring with hundreds or thousands of people in the air. Phones AND radar? You don’t even need ATC experience to think “Ummm…what?” when handed that situation. They had no advance notice that work was going to be done on the 2 most vital systems ATC needs, and put in place a plan to prevent disruption? Obviously that was a lethally negligent move in terms of safety, hundreds of times over.
Media should be blame for Peter life.
@@SurelyYewJest bottom line this is spot on. Why even bother operating an airport if you turn off radars and phones. Just turn off any lights while you're at it.
Murder can never be justified.
Peter Neilson was human. He tried his best despite all the unfortunate circumstances around him.
He was a victim too.
This whole incident is awfully saddening.
Exactly
I agree. In my opinion I feel like the maintenance(?) group was more at fault. They should've come to fix stuff after working hours.
I'm shocked the father got let off with a slap on the wrist. I would have assumed they'd hang him.
@@mary-fr1ud in aviation working hours are at all hours.
I find it quite unsettling that he made a political career after that. I am able to understand his grief, but I still can’t understand those who voted for an actual murderer
A father lost his family, then a family lost their father. That's heartbreaking. Peter didn't do anything wrong. Skyguide shut off crucial operating systems, Skyguide shut off the phones, Skyguides had Peter to man multiple screens while an ATC officer took his break. Anyone could have been in Peters chair.
Although they say he is russian, he is actually occetian. They have a very bloody vengeance and have a eye for an eye culture. Becareful with people from caucasia and southern part of Russia
The resemblance between the actors & real crew is uncanny.
This was such a tragedy. 😞
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼💜💜💜
I thought so too
Right when they showed the actor painting at the start and the picture of the real kid next to him i was in awe of how close the resemblance was!
I was thinking the same thing.
ACI (and SFD) has some good actors and most of them resemble the normal people. For this particular case, the resemblance between actor and the person they play are resoundingly close.
The fact that they missed their flight only to get onto one that would cost them their lives is chilling
Yeah its like death called to them and like everything went wrong that day and called for their life. Like it was meant to be that day and nothing could have stopped it. It was one problem after another like it just had to happen and there’s nothing you can do to control it even if you try your best cause its like written in your destiny like gods plan🥺😔😞
Man pretend to be God.We think we can control everything.
@@pratyushamukherjee9607 stop overhyping it..... It was an accident
I blame the pilots. I can easily see plane lights miles away in the sky, I would have reacted much faster. Fools.
@@GardenGuy1943 As a pilot, there is more pressure, plus it wasn't during a clear day, Plus it would be a 50/50 to climb or descent. But the pilots chose the wrong one.
Another tragic thing to note while I was reading up on it, Vitaly gets hailed as a hero back home because he took Peter Nielsen's life. It wasn't even war and the man gets a medal and the recommends for killing a lone person who was already not only traumatized by the incident but was possibly still dealing with the ghosts of that incident. What a world we live in
I agree with you pal. No one deserves those thing happens. ONLY GOD know why.
Disgusting
Peter was killed in front of his wife and children🥺 He was innocent , There is something wrong in such a country ….
The Danes dont understand how they gave Peters killer a medal ! What a primitiv country Vitaly comes from.
@Ray Adams you got that right pal👍
Didn't they make a movie about something like this? Aftermath was the name don't remember if it was based on this story or not. Been awhile. Edit: looked it up yes based on this event.
“My life didn’t change, it stopped”
that was difficult to hear, wow.
Right on!
I find that really painful to
I can’t imagine the trauma he went through after the deaths of both planes, especially him knowing he accidentally killed _children._ the management should’ve been held responsible, not the overworked ATC.
Exactly, with incidents like this it’s always the team or the community not one individual but our average society knows no better.
and, as always, they KNEW THERE WAS A PROBLEM IN ADVANCE, like with the Japanese flights, but NO ONE DID ANYTHING.
same problem every day here in Murica: endless disasters and crimes and everyone was WARNED IN ADVANCE, but there are no adults on the planet.
well this comment just made it worse you literally said killed “children” in italics
@@jonbongjovi1869 problem with African Americans in America?
@@gangisspawn1 ??? No problem at all.
What's wrong with your READING COMPREHENSION?
It makes me glad the see the empathy for Peter in this comment section -- despite being smeared by the media without sufficient evidence, and proven to have been wrongly accused for the accident. The emotional turmoil that he must have gone through prior to his murder must have been unfathomable.
Media has always been so ruthless, especially of noteworthy events like the death of Princess Diana for so many years ago and current events nowadays aswell
I can't even begin to fathom what that poor young man went through when he knew what had happened. It would be life altering, that's for certain.
Honestly i don't understand comments like yours. The responsibility is clearly not his, why even go there, it's his corporation Skyguide gross negligence that is responsible, and the aviation committee for not having a protocol in place for TCAS overruling air controllers. Funny how when the mistakes come from far up (the aviation commitee) then the blame disappears, but the people remain dead. That isn't right.
People have to find someone to put the blame on and it had to be Peter. Otherwise the whole company will go down.
Just the fake-azz, lying, fear-mongering, sensationalizing, lamestream legacy media doing what they’ve ALWAYS done. Oh the irony. The entire media industry controlled by just a couple evil, greedy, disgusting PHONY’S with a horrific reputation of blatant lies and corruption actually condemning a man who had a sterling record up until the very company he worked for begins robbing him of the tools to perform the duties EXPECTED of him in the first place. Surprise, surprise. Smfh.
This is horrible. Practically everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong. My sincerest condolences to everyone affected by the accident, especially all the family members.
Imagine if everything that could go wrong did just that , so unfair and unlucky but It was simply just there time to go .
Nothing went wrong in the DHL plane. The DHL pilot flew his plane just as he should have. The only thing that went wrong was when the other pilot didn't follow his TCAS instructions.
@@twt65 And the downed phone line....The additional flight..1 controller....Did you even watch the video? They discussed why the TCAS instructions were not followed.....
Nobody deserves this pain.
what if in reality technicians that turned off phones were time travelers that made sure that this plane crashes to save humanity from one of passengers :D
I've always been surprised at how a bad guy always needs to exist, and how one is made right away without knowing what happened at all
just an average moment of news media people putting all the blame onto someone and dramatizing it all for profit and a good headline while an innocent overworked ATC gets murdered on his own doorstep because of it
@@murakii In the law it's innocent until proven guilty, but in the media it's Guilty until proven innocent but even after your name is cleared they will still try to make you look partly bad or lyibal.
@@jo2832Becuase in the media bis, once you're cleared off any wrong doings, that's it. You get to walk away. Most of the media people hate that and will milk your story dry for their own interest of increasing the ratings of their station, therefore increasing their income. So yeah... It's all about the moolah.
@stormtrooper1484
"He paid for his crime" dude what crime?
You better pay a therapist 💀
@stormtrooper1484He could never have been expected to do better
Seeing the DHL pilot trying desperately get the aircraft to land safely while It was clearly plummeting towards its doom and the engine being torn mid air still haunts me to this day
And it doesn't haunt you that lots of innocent children died?
Obviously
@@kayrinkaj It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. Nobody on either aircraft deserved to die; you don't have to sympathize with some people and not others. The air traffic controller didn't deserve to die either.
you need to work on your grammar. Using incorrect terms : Plummeting towards its doom aka jargon
Run on sentences
@@kayrinkajdoes it haunt you? What did you do about it or what will you do?
If you’re not doing anything, then you’re less than a coward for just making a comment without backing it up
Who turns things off that is still needed to prevent life or death scenarios?! I don't get that part at all. No backup or temporary system? They treated it like a website being down for maintenance. Just insane!!!
The most baffling part of it all. Tragically makes no sense. I remember reading about this incident years ago and was thinking, why wasn't there any type of BACKUP PLAN if they're gonna turn off the system (and phone lines!) for maintenance repairs!!!???
Agreed!! That should have been done before or after the flight.
And not communocate the issue with pilots.... They are useless individuals
While that definitely played a part in this tragedy, air control is a 24/7 business. So, no matter what time they would have done the maintenance, it would have still been done during flights.
That they didn't make sure that he at least knew that maintenance was being done was a fault on the maintenance crew alone. The fact that the maintenance was being done without redundant systems to ensure that things worked properly was a fault on the management.
Peter Neilsen was also a victim. Victim of unfortunate circumstance, because everything happened on that period of time, from his colleague taking a break leaving him alone, to radar maintenance, to distraction of another incoming flight. Everything was against him. In the first place, the colleague should have never left him alone so that it would have been prevented at least. He is a victim as much as the people on board on the 2 planes, and even the families involved. They are all victims of cruel circumstances.
He was the last voice the planes heard that caused the accident, so yes he was the one to get all the blame.
They shouldn’t have done maintenance at that time especially when there was only one person that was away from his computer the maintenance caused a delay.
@@stafonvoncamron which comes back to the fact that pilots weren’t trained to listen to their TCAS systems. He was going based off of what he could see, the TCAS system was going off of what it KNEW. They should’ve been trained to listen to TCAS instead of the operator. The fault is in the poor training of pilots in regards to TCAS vs Operator in emergency situations
No one is completely at fault here. The pilots weren’t trained properly to, maintainence at wrong time, 1 pilot on break, extra plane landing, other controllers unable to contact Nielsen. All of these caused this accident.
@@stafonvoncamron well they didnt listen to him soo..
Pretty stupid that International Air Traffic ‘Rules’ prevent the controller in Germany from talking to the pilots directly when he could get hold of the Swiss Controller. That’s ridiculous. Also another failure that caused this accident. If the German air traffic Controller could have gotten hold of one of the planes pilots this would not have happened.
In this instance it may would have helped, but what if the swiss controller already gave instructions to the other plane, this way the german controller would have send the planes on a collision course again.
too many voices in the cockpit was what actually caused the collide. Imagine a simple scenario: tcas warns you and says climb. You climb. Problem averted. Conflict and confusion caused it.
Tcas has caused tragedies too. I pray they changed the law, so if you see something, you can say something. I'm sure the German controller felt awful..all because his hands were tied :(
@@JeannieLoreneThey did. Now TCAS is the guiding force and pilots are trained to tell air traffic control, in situations like this, that they are following TCAS instructions and the air traffic controllers are trained to know that as well.
I’ve seen this years ago. How can they leave the controller alone and even cut his phones. Management should have been charged with murder. Wish vitali would have gotten the real murderers
I totally agree with your comment. The management is the one to be blamed for this horrible accident.
it was the equpiment failed thats why controller wasent responsible enough when he's equipment failed
@@zeezgaming793 The equipment wasn’t working right as they were doing maintenance, affecting the radar and phone lines. None of this would have happened if another worker was helping and they weren’t doing so much maintenance at once. The higher ups were majorly at fault here, leaving the controller to pick up the pieces on his own.
This is a multi casual problem with negligence in various aspects, but the only murderer in this whole story is Vitali himself.
Why do people assume that the guy who left for a break was management? He was just another controller. Had the accident not happened, Nielsen would have done the exact same thing later that night.
Dang, so many things, starting with "if the kids hadn't missed their first flight"...
Disasters never have just one cause. I do something that impacts how you do something which is effected by things that two other people did months ago
Very 'final destination-y'
That 'travel agent' who sent the kids to the wrong airport is partially responsible for their death.
the tourist agent mistaked the airport😭pure unluck🤦
@@colorwalk80 yes, unfortunately🤦😭
For the schoolchildren and the teachers, it all started when they missed their original flight.
Final destination
Yeah imagine but "what ifs" are no comfort.
@rented identity
That driver and Peter Nielsen.
Well, Nielsen got sent to another realm by Vitaly Kaloyev.
yeah n the amount of guilt he would have felt that he had unintentionally “killed” people in the plane cuz his equipment wasn’t working
If something happens like this, missing a plain, don't take another one
The dad that found his daughters body… omg. Absolutely heart wrenching. Total nightmare fuel. 😢😢
Remember, villain are not born, they are made
I’m really, really scared…😨
@@kaitoushioda7097scared of what? This happened several years ago. What's to be scared of?..... flying?
@@MrMJmusicLoverMore than several. This will be 22 years ago this Monday. 1st July 2002.
In a weird way he lost more and got more than other parents. He lost his whole family but was able to find his daughter whole and hold her one last time.
My sympathy is with the air traffic controller, no phones, barely any radar, and two confused planes to take care of. Noone should have been in that position.
he got murdered by a father of one of the kids on the plane in 2004
And his colleuge on an all night break!!
He should have called for the other worker to come back into the room when the maintenance ppl showed up though.
I blame the pilots. I can easily see plane lights miles away in the sky, I would have reacted much faster. Fools.
@@cricketking_zmob1327 it’s the pilots fault, dingus.
The worst part is that peter nielsen was murdered by the victims family member, this is utterly disgusting. It was never his fault cause there was another controller contacting dhl. sighhh
I'd do the same, to be honest.
That’s not worst part !!
@@houstonhelicoptertours1006 That would be evil.
I really don't get people who think the blame should lay completely on Peter and that he deserved to be murdered for it. The real thing to ask yourself is if you could do better than him in those circumstances. I couldn't; I'd have probably made it worse to be honest. Everything was against him.
@@Axisoffear94 absolutely spot on
I can't even imagine the feeling in Peter's stomach when he realized what happened. I feel so bad for him.
Well, the architect killed him, so moot point
The part where the architect was carrying his daughter after finding her body absolutely ruined me. No parent should ever have to experience pain like that
And then he stabbed the one guy that is less at fault then any technician or management personell...
I might even pity him if he hadn't taken it upon himself to bring equal pain onto another innocent family.
@@zapzter2336 ? Nobody comes back with vengeance. Why not sue the management, the supervisor?
i agree but there should be a since of profession when you are doing a search i donnot believe he should have helped with the search for his sake
He murdered the ATC
Oh my God. This is a tragedy beyond words. All those kids. No parent should lose their kids. That poor guy who lost his entire family. That poor flight controller who had far too much to monitor with too little working equipment and in the end also lost his life. I've seen several of these, some were worse than others. This one is the worst yet.
True
Perhaps we should now start taking trains instead of planes, perhaps trains are a safer option in densely populated areas.
@@1mol831 trains are inconvenient, they're much slower, you can't travel to most countries without an airplane. plane crashes are also rare
This is so tragic in every way. ALl the families that lost children. The way they died. I can't imagine.
Couldn't agree more.
thats why i cant be a pilot, id make a large mistake like this, ruining more lives, i cant imagine how it felt, one second youre a little scared because airplanes can be scary, the next youre falling out of the sky. Rest in Peace
The murder of the air traffic controller absolutely shattered me.
Yes the father was grieving, but he CHOSE to hunt this man down and murder him - there's no way to justify his actions. Not even grief.
He deserved to spend many years in prison for hunting down Peter . He had no remorse for killing him in front of his wife and children.
he was released after 2/4 years as I remember...
Where is all the justice? This is so sad. Peter didn't deserve it, and neither did the grieving father. Really tragic
He had a right to be angry, but he put that anger in the wrong person. Something I try to warn people against after the first time I saw this. Too often people take their rage out on the first person they see whether that person can actually do something about it or not. In this case Peter was simply one of the employees there not the managment that made all those stupid decisions that put him in that position in the first place. I know how frustrating it can be to have a boss above you who acts really stupid but you can't say anything against or he'll just threaten your job. And as a grown adult the father should've realized that too.
He also reportedly murder Peter in front of his wife and kids
This wasn't Peter fault at all. They failed him and everyone else. Why would u leave ya coworker with such a heavy load. This whole situation was devastating
Nilsson Schmilsson. Always obey TCAS, without fail..
@@snickerinmuttley1204 That rule came after the investigation on this incident.
What about the girl sitting next to Peter, couldn't she have helped ?? Maybe she could have gotten that other guy that went on break....Too many variables here
"What about the girl sitting next to Peter"
This is rather like one surgeon having to cover for a second, and asking why the nurse isn't performing the surgery on the first's patient.
That's not meant as an insult to you, just an explanation. She was just an assistant, without the full training or certification of an air traffic controller. Like the nurse* , she very likely has some idea what's going on, but not the authority to issue control clearances.
* Definitely not a knock on nurses, some of whom have saved my life, just that they're not surgeons.
Ooh?!
How tragic. I can't even imagine being in this controller's shoes. The guilt he must have felt...Awful. Then they blame HIM after he's been murdered, when they already knew that his screen radar was lagging due to the maintenance guys??? I don't believe he was to blame AT ALL
Well, he did make some bad decisions. The worst one was telling the Russian plane to descend instead of telling them to follow the anti-collision computer's guidance & w/o even checking in with the DHL pilots, who were descending b/c they were following their own computer's guidance. He basically directed that Russian plane directly toward the DHL plane.
@@DonnaBrooks; guess you missed the part that the system was lagging due to the maintenance being done and main and backup phone communications were disconnected:
Plus he suddenly was tasked with directing the landing of a third aircraft - 48:37.
All this, coupled by the unavailability of nearly all critical communications technology: 48:47 - "...the controller has been robbed of all the technical support he needs".
49:10 - "the DHL pilots cannot tell him [controller] what's happening, because the radio frequency is busy".
Also, the DHL's STCA system did not alarm until very late.
Pay attention. Not doing so leads to making some bad comment decisions.
@@DonnaBrooks From his perspective he should descend. They didn't have protocol to follow the computer
@@DonnaBrooks But it's the pilot's decision to follow the AC guidance or not, and to my understanding it's always good practice to follow it regardless of what ATC says
@@DonnaBrooks I fully agree with you. More then, the swiss air controller allowed DHL plain to go on 360 instead of determined 320.
It was heartbreaking to watch the pilots realized their destiny and the controller realized the catastrophic situation. My heart goes to the families who lost their loved one. I couldn’t stop crying when I saw the gentleman lost his entire family, wife, son and daughter. My condolences and hope in time they find peace.
An extra heartbreaking detail is that the DHL craft's last second dive attempt ALMOST worked...but for the tail fin, which ended up dooming both airplanes.
He probably never will.
@@travismaxwell9115 yea you do not ever find peace with somthing like this. all you can do is try your best to find a reason to get out of bed every morning
I develop nightmares watching this, it's a truama and disaster.😥
That man has been killed. There’s no life from here.😢
The blame lies with that SLACKER who took far too long to return to his post, not that poor controller that was doing TWO jobs!
This one hurts .... that’s a whole generation
A whole generation of talented kids :-(
You have to admit as sad as this incident was, the memorials built were incredible. The golden paper airplanes near the graves and the broken necklace memorial: so emotional
yeah all those beautiful pictures from the people in the Memorials are amazing and golden paper airplanes were beautiful to. So sad 😢
This accident was left me in tears,rip
The golden planes forever in flight 🥺
My sympathies to Peter. I can’t imagine how helpless he felt when he saw what happened.
He was murdered after 😔
@@Tangerine9407 really
@@1besst70 yea it’s in the video
Your sympathy is misplaced
@@pattimaeda6097 I feel sympathy to both parties. Peter didn’t mean to kill them, but had to live with it until he was eventually murdered. The victim’s families and communities all suffered great loss. Just an overall sad situation.
He was set to fail by the circumstances that night.
1. The co-worker who took a long break
2. The Maintenance
3. The overload of calls/plane to work on.
4. The system/habit of their company
Probably more
5. ICAO leadership failed at their duties
The father finding his daughter. There are no words...RIP to all those involved. 🕊🕊🕊
I’m so happy she was intact
that’s what got me 😩😩😢
You can see her pictures in the video. She was intact as she fell partially on the trees which reduced her fall. Poor little girl :(
I'm surprised she was intact from 20,000 feet, trees or not
Surely it was a blessing
Well, this episode made me go wake up my teenagers and hug them...poor poor parents and babies 😓
When I was a teenager, if my mom had woken me up in the middle of the night to hug me, I’d get mad and think she was crazy.
@@kevin6293 it was around 10am my time :) They were already up for classes and went back to sleep, and they didn’t really wake up or mind!
that’s why i’m never flying
Pm
@@shaymarie878 it’s funny that you wanted to justify at was 10am but it’s funnier that they didn’t wake up or mind lol . But they were already up what is going on here?
This was one of the saddest stories I’ve ever heard. What a terrible tragedy, compounded by the killing of the controller. RIP to the victims and hopefully some kind of peace for their families. 😢
I remember watching a different documentary of this accident years ago but I still feel the greatest sympathy for Peter Nielsen, it wasn't directly his fault AT ALL. He was just as much of a victim of this whole case as the people on board of both of the planes. Probably the most tragic aircraft accident i've seen.
I agree it’s just heart wrenching, I’ve watched this episode at least 5 times and it never fails to not only deeply effect me, but also I’m stunned by the string of errors and misunderstandings that together to caused this tragedy,
I don’t know that another air traffic controller could’ve done anything different that night. The phones being down, the maintenance, the information being two minutes behind real time, Peter working basically alone, multitasking on two screens with so many flights. Someone was going to be a scapegoat that night, and it was Peter.
Yes, it was. He wasn't paying attention, plain and simple. He didn't even stick around to check that it didn't crash, but went off on to other things. In that moment of crisis he should have made sure to see it through, confirmed an accident had indeed been averted, instead of just thinking it did. See it through completion.
He was the grestest casualty of this accident given he had to live either the sorrow the longest before being brutally executed in front of his family
@@aewtx A big thank you to the armchair air traffic controller for the most ignorant comment.
I don't know why, but the animation recreation of the collision makes my blood run cold and sends chills up my spine everytime.
same…seeing it recreated in real-time is so surreal and soul-crushing :(
y’all are so dramatic
yes
Well it shows children being sucked out the fuselage, falling to their doom. That's is some stark imagery. But what I was most shocked by that they actually showed the body of that girl in the casket. I think that was entirely unneccesary.
@@formdusktilldeath it really really REALLY was. I've watched quite a few of these and I appluaded them for never being gruesome or tasteless in showing actual bodies or actual victims. To show a child in a casket with 0 warning to boot.....cruel...
I have been watching these air flight tragedies constantly and this one really got me, all those children. 😭
🤣🤣🤣
@@asitpurohit_108 wtf
It’s not funny
@@aminisvlogs8817 that emoji she put is a cry/laugh
@@asitpurohit_108 What’s wrong with you????
@@asitpurohit_108 ysob f off its serious and isnt something to laugh about
How could you leave your colleague with such work load when you did know the surrounding working environment is not normal as it's used to, Peter did his best in this messy situation. May his and their souls rest in peace
If only they hadn't gone to the wrong airport and missed their original flight, all those school children and teachers would've all been still alive. R.I.P. to all victims and Peter Nielsen. 🙏🏾
He is a victim too
The guy who killed him only served 2 years in prison
@@FreelancerFreak the Russian man got mental health.
Actually no peter would still die the two girls were not with the school so they would still have gotten on
But still God decided it was their time.
I cried for them all. No one talks about the two men in the other plane, they lost their lives, and also left loved ones behind. Peace to all. This all could HAVE been avoided! If only people who have o
TRUE
I think they had it worse. Most of the passengers on the Tupolev would have died quickly, either in the collision itself or seconds later when they passed out due to lack of oxygen at 35,000 feet. The DHL's descent took several minutes and those minutes would have been nightmarish.
Absolutely, lot of lives were lost, families w/o children, parent (s). The tcas was working correctly the dhl flight did follow that directive. Unfortunately the other plan realized that to late, followed controller rather than the system. Its ❤ breaking, this could possibility been avoided. Understanding the controller delima, one by one his systems were being shut off for maintainence, not at a good time. RIP all that were involved.
esperanzamorales8354 yes those pilots as well. Thank you for acknowledging them. The dhl flight did what they needed to do, even when realizing conflict with another aircraft in sky, followed there system. Perhaps in other cultures, that may not be the norm. After all this time the tcas system has the final say. The question is, why would they have implemented that feature if you do not utilize it. Hopefully anyone that flies, then or now, hopefully more safe.
As a DHL driver in the US who's learning of this event for the first time, it'll haunt me now. 😭
Wow! Peter became the fall guy! But there were many unfortunate events that led to this. Peter tried his best monitoring 2 screens at a time plus additional loads plus engineers interrupting him, plus equipments not properly working! Rest in peace to all victims and to Peter.
True
Yeah, PETER PECKERHEAD WAS AT FAULT !!! ACCEPT IT & QUIT MAKING EXCUSES for those THAT DON'T DESERVE YOUR SYMPATHY!!! SAVE YOUR SYMPATHY FOR THE REAL VICTIMS, YOU ONLY VICTIMIZE THEM ALL OVER AGAIN "white washing" and sweeping UNDER the RUG the GUILT of the GUILTY!!! ATC's MONITOR MULTIPLE SCREENS ALL THE TIME, ITS THEIR JOB, DUMMYS!!!
@@donaldcarpenter5328 it’s time for your nap, Donny.
@@donaldcarpenter5328 Peter had a 2 minute delay, as well as extra workload. There wasn't much he could do as the amount stress he was put under.
Nothing to do with race. It 2as a fault of procedures and a line of small events that lead to this.
@@krismwah5388 idiots bring race into conversations when they have no legitimate argument or opinion. But, i have absolutely no clue why the hell he even brought race into it is beyond me lpl
I have never had a job where "lengthy breaks " were acceptable. Maintenance had his phones down, the screens were far apart and he tried to call another controller center to help but couldn't grt through. His coworker was having a leisurely break. He was in a no win situation
Peter, an experienced ATC needed help that night. He was over burdened since his colleague took an extended break leaving him to monitor the entire air space on two screens and face a series of unforeseen events, with equipment down including disabling short term collision alert, and phone lines down. Peter was not responsible for this tragedy!t The first blame is on Skyguide! Skyguide should always have had two controllers on duty in case of unforseen events. RIP Peter Nxielsen.❤😢
My condolences to all family and loved ones of those who lost their lives in this unfortunate accident. I concur that Skyguide is the 1st to be at fault in this situation w their poorly designed maintenance procedures!!!! Peter was NOT Negligent. The equipment at his station that was under maintenance is at fault which means Sky guide management & maintenance procedures are at fault. Peter should not have been the fall guy. May he Rest In Peace. Again, my condolences to all family & friends of all who died in this tragedy.
Equally responsible is the international standards organization that dragged their feet on making a procedure revision after several glaring close calls leading up to this accident. That should have been a major warning bell that there was not general consensus around the world on ‘who/what has the last word’ on collision avoidance. Personally, I feel that one meeting lasting maybe 30 min should have decided how to handle this and send it out across the globe immediately.
@@grumpyengg5978 I remember reading about the collision avoidance controversy and we have to wonder why after two near misses, the International Standards Organization did not make a decision immediately on this important issue! We could all be stepping on some ill-fated plane due to negilent decision making such as this. Read Mary Schiavo's book: "Flying Blind Flying Safe."
Well, it's Skyguide. This air service provider is directly responsible for this crash. They did such poor coordination of their maintenance, allowed one of the controllers to go on extended break? What the hell is that? So on his paid work shift he's allowed to go off work for a long time and goof off while planes are crashing into each other? This was sheer criminal negligence.
Peter's co-worker should have taken part of his break in the same room. Im sure he feels guilt from being away so long.
They do such an excellent job finding actors that look just like the crew.
Damn that was a perfect storm of small things adding up to a huge one
butterfly effect
@@kameeI is that what that means, I thought it meant something a little different.
@@kuwaitisnotadeployment1373 yeah. youtube “butterfly effect,” you’ll see what i mean
yep those kids caught the wrong flight!
Absolutely, the chain of events reminds me of that movie "Final Destination"... There are no accidents but a chain of events that contribute to a major disaster, the kids missing their original flight due to the travel agency's error, the maintenance and overloaded controller, the russian pilots and their decision to obey this controller, the controller not contacting the DHL... Such a sad event... my prayers to all the families who lost a loved one
I understand the father's pain and my heart goes to all the victims families and friends but for me, Peter is also a victim because of a faulty system. No matter how fulfilling it is to get ur revenge, don't ever correct a mistake with another mistake.
I semi agree with your comment, however every person has a different mindset as to whats right and what's wrong. Even though the laws in place may disagree. If your entire family was killed because a controller was too stupid to call for help when they started shutting systems down, then I place most if not all the blame on Peter. Now I'm not condoning murder however some peoples minds go to a different level when their entire family is killed and I honestly think that an eye for an eye was justified. If you can live with forgiving someone that killed your entire family, then you'd better hope your dead family members forgive your decision. Especially when they look down on you living without avenging them.
stop blaming the controller. Just by your comment, you sound you are too stupid to even be able to do the job of ATC. Being overloaded in work isn’t always obvious. It was busy sure, but I am sure he felt like it’s fine he can handle it at the time….humans often face uncomfortable situations that they CAN handle. We know NOW that it was too much for him because we know the results of the impact. However, you have to remember to put yourself in HIS shoes at the time. He also didn’t have anyway to contact anyone for help. The phones where down. WHICH IS A CRITICAL FAILURE.
Sometimes you have to remember that more important that blaming a person, you have to verify the systems and checks in place. Humans WILL make mistakes, it’s inevitable. It’s about how do we do it to ensure that those mistakes are caught early on and rectified.
@@Scott-G11 The Air Traffic Controller did try to call for help, but the maintenance techs had accidentally cut the backup telephone lines as well as the mains while they were performing maintenance. Peter was left with no way to call for help.
@@Scott-G11 I don't know what you're talking about. Enlighten us with your amazing ideas!
@@Scott-G11lmfao stop talking out of your a$$ and just answer the question. What would is your brilliant idea of what he should’ve done exactly?
I had no family in this crash nor knew anyone, yet I am horrified that anyone, relatives as well, had to suffer this. Tears are rolling down my face as I watch the devastated father. This is heartbreaking beyond any words I could ever come up with.
That daddy just broke my heart 😭💔
and yet in his grievance he chose to kill another innocence.
@@drabnail777 i wouldnt have been upset if the controller was a murderer or something, but he was innocent and was killed in a brutal way in front of his wife and kids. I do get the pain of the guy, but that was too far.
He was a murderer
@@rizb506 so you said what i said...
I remember someone said the reason relatives are not allowed to see the bodies is so they don’t remember them in that state. So that they are always a whole smiling person, not what the accident did to them.
No it's not. Did no you see the story? the reason for Peter's death was the father who picked up his family dead bodies. This is why you do not want the families to see parts of bodies in that condition, people won't be able to get it our of their minds and will snap just like it happened here. The Police should of never allowed him to go anywhere near the sites or the bodies.
@@danfuerthgillis4483 that’s literally what I said. You need to reread my statement. Also, the man didn’t get revenge because he saw his dead family’s bodies. If you think the only reason he wanted revenge was because of that, you’re delusional.
@@nothereforit.605 Read my post again moron that’s practically the whole point when 2 parties are involved. This is stop the people from going after the other parties. If you have some police background this is accident investigation 101. If there is only one party involved the police will show items from a crash. If you think it’s normal for someone to go on after they just picked up the body of their kid that fell from 20,000 feet you are really silly. The police were stupid for allowing this person to walk into the crash site and pick up the bodies, it is from the site of his kid that he lost it and flipped out. The other family members were not shown anything so the only memory they have is from previous pictures taken. You don’t show grieving family members distraught scenes like this. The mind can’t take it and they look to far for an answer.
@@danfuerthgillis4483 you literally called them a moron and ranted at them for saying the same thing you are, like they already told you
@@sativarosegold3604 Read my comment again to understand it correctly.
Peter Neilsen realizing what happened and his reaction is what got me the most. The actor played it so well.
I agree. This vblog has put out videos with actors who are good.
Come on the makers of the movie make it as much as possible sympathetic on this side, and subtly turning the attention to the Russian pilots. Even if it is striking the mission of the video is to level things.
He was negligent
No way of knowing what really happened. Pretty boy refused to talk
@@mtio2807 he frickin got mudered
I would like to ask for a minute's attention for the volunteers who removed the bodies from the crash site. This must have had a huge impact on them as well, especially since so many of the victims were children.
The man who found his tiny daughter and lost his ENTIRE family. I can’t. And if anyone was charged, it should have been his superiors who allowed the work to be done!
I have almost no sympathy for that man, if you can even call him human. He murdered Peter in front of his wife and children. Peter had done what he could with the information and equipment and attention he had and was completely innocent. The architect still brags about murdering him to this day and was celebrated as a hero in his hometown.
@@retrotasticular1642 peter definitely shouldn’t of passed away like that, infront of his family, but imagine losing your whole family, your babies. i completely see where the fathers anger is coming from.
@@sonic3205 anger is not a justification for murder, it's only a reason.
@@sonic3205bro do u know the amount of stress that comes from knowing the fact that u caused many people to die? id say having to live with that stress and then getting murdered in front of ur family is really bad. sure there are people who lost children and loved ones which i really do feel bad for them people who lost their children. but the person who murdered peter is hardly a human. like its basic elementary school knowledge to forgive for other people’s mistakes, even if they caused ur family to die. just cause ur angry doesnt mean u can kill others. u just sound like a spoiled kid
@@idkwhattoputhere5503 alright if it happens to your family id like to see you go up to man, after carrying your young dead daughter and say ‘ i forgive you 😀’. i absolutely never said peter should’ve died at all , and i do agree that the man should’ve gotten the normal sentence for peters murder , and never been awarded a hero . losing your whole family under those circumstances can make someone go insane, blaming whoever they can and that could’ve happened to him, to the point he didn’t get the help he needed before he got to peter and committed the murder, not to mention i don’t know anything about this unless it was in the video so i’m going off of how i took it by ONE video, ill look into it way more to see the other articles. i promise you i ain’t no spoiled kid but i cant even imagine finding out i lost my family, adding on ACTUALLY finding them.
i don’t think i’ve ever cried watching one of these but this one? i’m sobbing 😭 all those kids had their lives ahead of them, their families must’ve been so devastated
@@aShamelessHigh The hell is that supposed to mean?
@UCjGXJYOP1raMN1-dEYE8Lrw stfu u have a lion as ur pfp
So devastated that a family member, who lost his whole family to the accident, went on to murder the ATC. Can't blame him either.
It made me cry too!
@@aShamelessHigh ..
This is one of the saddest episodes ever. May all victims, including Peter Nielsen, RIP. Thoughts and prayers to the families and friends. My heart especially goes out to the architect. I know he was the one that killed Peter, which was horrible, but could you imagine the grief that he was going through? He lost his whole family.
Wasn’t he the murderer
@@sherrylockhart7337 I disagree. The atc was not to blame, he would’ve paid for it in the guilt and trauma. To take his life wouldn’t cause relief or relieve the anguish. Taking another life can never bring back the dead. Who said it was okay for him to commit this murder?
@@minecraft8587 he was the one who was killed.....
@@minecraft8587 You just said 'wasn't he the murderer' in order for it to be murder it had to be intentional, this wasn't intentional.
While I do agree that he bears some responsibility, in no way does that mean he should've been MURDERED by another person. He wasn't the murderer, the other person was.
@@Suisfonia tomato was talking about the architect, who was the murderer
This episode has particularly brought real grief to my heart. Its production is admirable.
Damn, this is one of the saddest things I've ever seen... Such an unfortunate chain of events. RIP all of the victims, the best for their families, and peace for Peter Neilson. 💔
I honestly feel mostly bad for Peter
He first had to realize a mid-air collision happened, that is pretty traumatizing
Then he dies because he gets murdered :(
I think he had a wife and kids (unsure), so thats the worser part ;(
May he rest in peace
@@vasilijecool4425 yeah for real man
This is one of the biggest misfortunes I have heard of.
Its unluckiness
@@shruthisrikumar5907 yea all of the events happened so perfectly badly to cause the entire accident..
I’ve seen dozens of these videos, but this one gave me absolute full bodied chills. Childrens bodies found around a school for the disabled? Absolutely heart breaking. As well as the live footage of the memorial site. Bless those souls.
Edit: GOD THE WOMAN PLACING LITTLE COOKIES DOWN ON THE BOYS GRAVE.
This is probably one of the most dramatic episodes of Mayday, and of course, one of the most tragic of air accidents I've ever known of.
The chain of events that led to the tragedy is almost diabolic. I am surprised that Hollywood or Netflix or HBO or some other network or producer or writer hasn't picked up on this tragedy and made a portrayal of it, or at least not one I know of. Easily a movie or a 'Chernobyl' quality miniseries can be drawn out of this tragic event. This story deserves to be more known.
Actually there was a film made called “Aftermath”. I never saw it, but it was mentioned on another channel. It was about the Russian father who lost his children and wife and blamed the Air Traffic Controller for the tragedy. I might have to watch this one now.
@@5thdimension625 Yes the movie features Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's a good film.
Yes, its "Aftermath" starring Arnold Schwarzenegger in one of his more dramatic roles.
I'm not sure it should be more widely known unless any future TV programs don't mention anything at all about exactly what flight it was and/or make every single component accurate but realistic fiction or dramatized or whatever. The families have already been traumatized enough. They don't need anymore direct or indirect reminders or coverage of any kind
Klm incident
I've watched a lot of Mayday/Air Crash Investigation, they've covered a lot of tragic and horrifying cases with much higher death tolls, however this episode of Mayday about Uberlingen takes the cake for the saddest episode.....
Peter seems to be forgotten in the comments. RIP, poor man!! I can't imagine the pain you went through till the moment you got killed.
Another example of the media taking a snippet of information, not waiting for full investigation and destroying a life for views. So many failures at so many levels, with so many to blame yet Peter got stuck holding the ball, basically blind as to what was happening in real time due to maintenance and handling it the best he could. Lack TCAS training for pilots, even with so many prior close calls, ultimately proved fatal. My heart breaks for all involved.
Reporters are no longer journalists.
Exactly why I quit that field when studying for it in college. It's a hostile vile fascist environment
to me...the ONLY reason why this collision happened was that maintenance shut down critical and vital tools required to manage the flights. How can anybody think of doing something so dangerously stupid. IF all the software and tools were working, including the phones, Peter Neilsen could have managed. He had vital tools taken away from him. How can anyone lay any bame on him.
if only one of the flights were 2 seconds earlier.. or later. or 50 meter higher.. or lower. or they'd have the same priority with atc/tsac command. or the controller wasn't alone. or he didn't get busy with another flight. or the system was working. or the sun rose on the west
@@user-wq9mw2xz3j Russian pilots being trained that TCAS has the highest priority is probably one of the best changes to increase airplane safety that has ever been made, besides TCAS itself. I have not found a single accident since then of 2 planes colliding mid air since this incident, unless only one of the planes had TCAS.
@@MegaLokopo No jinx! 🤞🏻
My sentiments exactly
If the tourist agency in Russia had taken the kids to the right air port to start with, this wouldn't have happened. It was a total system failure, not just 1 thing.
As a guy living in Friedrichshafen germany (a city 20 minutes away from the crash site in Überlingen and the location of the ATC, which the pilots talked to before) I can say, my uncle (a firefighter of the local fire department) was completely distraught, when he picked up a toy bear of a kid, which was aboard the plane.
Hello! I got to be in your city accidentally last year as I was having a flight from Dubai to Stuttgart, but it was changed to Friedrichshafen because of the strike at Stuttgart. And I was born in Ufa where I’ve lived for the most of my life. What a coincidence…
There's just so many mistakes here that eventually created the perfect recipe for disaster.
1. The controller shouldn't have been left alone to check on both traffic screen that is FAR from each other. Even if the other controller wanted to take a break, shouldnt have taken a lengthy break.
2. They shouldn't have been doing the maintenance that caused a late response when Peter was the only one controlling.
3. Peter was already taking care of both screen at once, why would his workload be added more that distracted him even more?
4. The aviation law should have a uniform law about whether to listen to the TCAS command or the controller's command.
All in all, I hope Sky Guide learned from their mistakes and inforce more strict rules now.
The captain had a good point when he said TCAS announcements are monotone and the ATC commands sound more urgent. It sounds like something small, but when you have seconds to make a decision, it is easy to see how the more urgent command would win out. I trust aviation protocols are internationally uniform. You can't have one country's pilots listening to TCAS and the neighboring country's pilots prioritizing the controller.
AND the telephone line should not have been disconnected! Had he been able to complete the call (tried THREE times), it might have made the difference even with all else going wrong.
For Peter's situation sitting in that chair knowing that too many people died while he's working that disturbance will haunt him for rest of his life even when it's not his fault entirely
well or at least until they killed him
He was murdered.
@@Theegoaat Really?
@@nelzsonjr yeah watch the whole video.
@@anthonysaponaro6318 he really didn't deserve to die like that
This episode just genuinely made me cry, there were probably kids screaming for help when the planes collided and the dad praying when he found the pearl necklace i just broke down into tears.
This has to be one of the most tragic accidents they’ve covered. The children. The controller. Those poor pilots and passengers. The families. The murderer. It’s just so horrible.
It was mid-air that's why it is so tragic..
Yea.. 😢
I remember watching this for my aviation major courses. This has always been one of the saddest stories to me, Peter, the crew, and passengers on board never deserved this.
This is one of the most horrific and unbelievable true stories I've ever seen. Way too many failures and losses.
This failure cost me a Good friend.
🤧😪
@@viktuutee I’m so sorry for your loss.
no duh
Yes It is true
Just imagine the trauma Peter goes through every night thinking about the collision he could have avoided and the lives that have lost cause of him. i pray to give him peace
Well he was murdered sadly
Clearly you didn't see the documentary till the end. He was murdered by the father of one of the children on the plane
@@YasOOsha he was murdered by the architect who lost his wife and children in that crash
No...he was not the cause of this...too many factors led to this tragedy... unfortunately they needed a scapegoat which led to his death..the controller who left his workstation in the first place should have actually been honest enough to admit his role in this tragic loss of life...😩🌸🙏
The father who killed Peter didn’t serve much time, has since remarried and has 2 children. I’m happy that he’s found some peace and happiness, but what about Peter’s family? Is beyond tragic.
Peter family still got other of his family, but the father, he is lost everything
@@devdanharyowicaksono8396 so that justifies killing Peter? It wasn’t his fault.
He was hailed a hero when he went back home. Truly disgusting. Peter didn't intentionally kill his family, but he was both his judge and executioner.
I pity the controller the most. He had to live with the blame and guilt for the death of innocent children. He probably had nightmares every night and every day was just reporters harassing him. The problem is a systemic issue both in the industry itself and the airport he worked in. It could have happened to literally any other ATC. As they said here, it almost happened to at least 5 others! And Peter paid for this with his life.
Ya and it wasn’t even mainly his fault, phone calls couldn’t get in because of maintenance
And the other controllers leaving the room
I know right! The man was set up. Not purposefully but just by the chain of events that had to happen. Fate really had it out for him. I bet it was horrible!
Tbh the media deserves severe condemnation for this too. Especially in the aftermath of 9/11 and the newsworthiness of air disasters, horse race journalism really smeared this guy and agitated a grieving man to murder.
It was the media's fault for making him look like the bad guy and release his private information
Vitaly Kaloyev just murdered him in front of the family, wife and children of the air traffic controller. Ridiculous that he just served a few years in prison for that.
If only Peter's colleague would not have taken a long break
If only that maintenance work could be done at another time
😰
One controller. One screen.
@@remalim9471 yeah
Agree
@@remalim9471 Yes. Essential Air control
There is no good time to do maintenance on such systems there are flights in the air all the time it just happened to set off a chain of unfortunate events
It always hurts when they almost avoid it
I've watched this documentary so many times and something about the seconds before impact is really saddening to me. Both sets of pilots were not in the immediate collision, meaning that they did not instantly die on impact. One plane, pilots were sent in a free fall before losing consciousness. The other plane, they watched in horror as their controls did nothing and the plane had no chance of landing. Imagine being on that plane and struggle to keep dozens of peoples lives safe when you know death is happening no matter what. It's very chilling, and I think the actors of the pilots did an amazing job playing the roles.
They were alone on the DHL plane, it was a cargo plane ...
I don't know how I will be able to get on a plane after binge watching these documentaries :/
I just got off one yesterday after a long trip, and once we headed out I decided to watch these videos. I have to say, I felt really safe on the plane especially for it being my first time flying, but after watching this, I feel like I would get a panic attack everytime I see one.
All these accidents / incidents, including this one, they're all in the past, and led to the aviation safety today. The conclusion of all my binge watching was that aviation safety regulations are written in blood, lots of em, and all pilots are professionals, they never give up, and unrelenting in their drills. I'm about to sit on an airplane on 31st July after watching all that, I will use the knowledge to appreciate aviation safety as much as possible.
I like to watch them on the plane 😆
That was also my thought until I finally got to ride a plane. To be honest, I felt much safer in a plane than a car or bus.
@@lilycha9398 it's illusory, in a plane your only 15 minute to a crash with the ground at any time during the flight. There are plenty of air catastrophy in the making.
"The Plane is full of School Children"....That line hit me like a Ton of bricks...Father carrying his perished daughter is Heart wrenching...Maintenance who came into the Control room gets no blame?
They both got fined & did time in prison too
Only airport management has to blame the maintenance gay are doing their job.the airport 🛫 maste have backup tools 🔧 .
There were only two people in charge of the screens and one of them took a 'lengthy break' leaving the other person alone? Sure, seems fine. What could possibly go wrong.
It's not odd taking a break more odd to have maintainence come and mess with equipment
@@Geengarner uhmm i think that should be more of a reason to stay rather than leave
No the moment his dumb self didnt check to make sure. He is at fault
The crash moment gives me chills.. rip to all those beautiful souls on board
Even if that flight controller was intentionally negligent, he didn't deserve to be murdered in cold blood. As it stood, he was overworked, using faulty equipment and those factors culminated in a tragic accident. The actions of Vitaly Kaloyev and more importantly the people who honor him as a hero are disgusting.
EDIT: As for who's at fault, that's obvious: the management at Skyguide. If you're doing maintenance on the radar, the absolute minimum precaution you should take is to hand over traffic to another station for the duration of the maintenance. And if something as crucial as phone lines are not working, then they should absolutely have another ATC take over while things get sorted.
All about cutting costs and saving money; always is somewhere down the line :(
The fault is in the training of the russian pilots. At the time russian pilots were the only pilots in the world to be trained to follow air traffic control if atc tells you something and tcas disagrees. The rest of the world at the time and today russia as well, pilots are trained to do what tcas says regardless of what atc says.
Its just like a stick shaker or the ground proximity warning. You climb when it says climb and you descend when it says descend.
@@MegaLokopo 50:24 THIS EXPLAINS THE TRAINING
@@Slaptop. No that explained the procedure, the training itself was never shown. Just because the rules say the training must be done that way doesn't mean the training was actually done that way.
I agree
"Most outstanding teenagers." Can you fathom a world where all these kids grew up to be incredible adults doing wonderful things for this world? That guts me more than anything.
Same...
How heartbreaking..can't imagine.poor babies..
One can only imagine what the painter kid could've gone on to do.
@@blackhawksnbullsncubsnbear4615 more than you ever could
@@irene9486 rude, but true