Melting Fuses and Breaking Breakers
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
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Blue Sea 100amp breaker:amzn.to/4eOV4bK
Blue Sea 50 amp breaker:amzn.to/3VQuMNE
Renogy 60 amp fuse:amzn.to/3xEuOAk
WindyNation 60 amp fuse:amzn.to/4cLn7XO
Spartan Power 80 amp fuse:amzn.to/4eFE73L
Resistor:amzn.to/3xr2PnI
Victron MPPT 100/30:amzn.to/3RDPM9c
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Air Fryer:amzn.to/3VKb7QF
stuff I use everyday:
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IP22 blue smart charger 12/30:amzn.to/3Vu8XoN
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phoenix 12/800 Inverter:amzn.to/3vrUa36
Smart Shunt:amzn.to/3x4tplR
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Chins 12V 100Ah smart LiFePO4:amzn.to/48akxcC
Chins 12.8v 300ah LiFePO4 battery:amzn.to/3M22V7g
Victron 100/50 MPPT smart solar charge controller:amzn.to/3GRcypg
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Reliable 12v3000watt pure sine wave inverter:amzn.to/3wdgGta
Epever 40amp charge controller:amzn.to/38hDgsv
Newpowa 12v 100watt monocrystalline solar panels:amzn.to/3yqM2z5
Aili battery monitor:amzn.to/3sqwqYF
50 amp breakers:amzn.to/3kTCiFt
Bus bars:amzn.to/3ynZPXd
Battery cables:amzn.to/3vLPMIU
Solar panel isolator switch:amzn.to/3QoZN8i
Solar panel isolator switch breaker box:amzn.to/3ZkdTMn
Victron energy Phoenix 12/375 pure sine wave inverter:a.co/d/fhLT5fb
Victron energy smart solar charge controller MPPT 75/15:a.co/d/2ub3biw
Victron energy smart dongle:a.co/d/43R2coZ
Solar isolator switch:a.co/d/iftd9YU
50 amp breaker:a.co/d/cyoBzIZ
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48V system:
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Victron energy smart solar charge controller MPPT 150/35:amzn.to/3TDwxeD
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MRBF Terminal Fuse block:amzn.to/3DzcMjd
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Solar panels:amzn.to/3Fogyga
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Battery monitor:amzn.to/3L13Fd0
Breakers:amzn.to/3Bs4V5S
Fuse:amzn.to/3qpNZXi
Small inline fuse:amzn.to/3B3mWWE
Wall pass through for solar cables:amzn.to/3RyNE0t
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Timeusb system:Victron energy 24/375 phoenix pure sine wave inverter: amzn.to/3ri6wbM
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Small inline fuse:amzn.to/3B3mWWE
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I can see al lot of comments of concern. As an electrical engineer I can speak on this. Those fuses are functioning as designed. Fuses will have a time delay before they pop. For example a 100 amp fuse will be designed to take 10 minutes to pop at 100 amps, 5 min at 110 amps 1 min at 120 and maybe 10 seconds at 130 amps and 1 second at 140 amps etc and instant at 150 amps etc. Look into fuse ratings and their time current curve and you will see how it all works
Mahalo for that great information and being part of the conversation! Aloha!🤙
C rated I might guess.
Great video, Bob! Yeah fuses, and breakers can be tricky. If you can find documentation on the ones you use, it can be very helpful. Usually in the docs (if you can find docs) it might show a trip curve. For example the trip curve may show it trips at the rating within 30-60mins, and it also may show it trips instantly if the current is 2x to 3x the current rating. Oh and yes I do try to buy known/reputable whenever possible for my own peace of mind :) Thanks for the test!
Mahalo brother! If I can find the specs...RIght?!? 🤣Aloha!🤙
@@ProjectsinParadise808 Exactly 🤣
I found the same thing when I did a fuse test on my channel. I had to put way way more current through the fuses to get them to blow. When I made a comment saying about it, all the keyboard worriers thumbed down my video and rubbished me in the comment saying I didn't take into account the fuse rating Vs run time Vs temperature. I ended up taking that video down off my channel.
Thanks for the video as I am glad to see I am not the only one that found fuses went way higher than their rated current and not blow. Kinda wonder how accurate these fuses realy are. It's a thumbs up for this video from me 👍
All an experiment my friend!🤙
For each class (use)of fuse there is a rating graph. Some classes will stand 200% rated for 2 - 5 minutes but 10x rated only for milliseconds. As ever getting all the classes of fuse with rating charts simply doesn't happen if Made in China or if intended for recreation use.
One major factor is the voltage of the circuit. A fuse will break AC easily because there is a zero crossing every few milliseconds, but may arc straight over if a DC voltage is high enough
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Man, every time that inverter's fans switched off I though O heck, what went wrong now...😂
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Measuring the volt drop across fuse or breaker would have been useful. The low cost breaker reduced the volts so much the inverter shutdown.
Apart from the low cost breaker, the others performed as designed . There is a time duration to consider as well as current. 0:03 At the design current it will pass that current for ever, with a low voltdrop. At 1.4 X rated it will fuse after 15 seconds, at 3 X rated it will fuse after 1 second, at 10 X rated it will fuse in 0.1 second. You can find time / current graphs in manufactures published data.
Sometimes I find a resettable DC circuit breaker which carries voltage perfectly but not current. It is fun 😊 because the breaker doesn't trip and the voltage and ground tests are normal. Simply: The contacts in the thermal breaker can pass full voltage but not much current thus they don't heat or trip. 😊
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I can say that no name breaker was disconnecting due to heat on the inside. They do not always trip the switch. I do not trust them. Blue sea is the way to go with those type. I think the fuses work as designed.
T-Tocus brand breakers are good quality also and not cheap. If you would have exceeded the amperage lets say 20 amps over 60 amps for 5 or 10 minutes the heat probably would still trip them after they got warmer they are kind of a slow trip.
I have a couple of those in play too! They do work well. Aloha!🤙
These all performed as expected (except the cheapy breaker which could be god knows what)
Fuses and breakers trip on an overcurrent time curve.
If you applied 10 amps over the fuses/breaker rating they will blow, but might take 30 plus mins, apply 20A over rating, it might take 15-20 mins, the higher the over value the steeper that time curve, short circuit it, and is massive overload so will trip right away :)
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Thank you for your informative videos.
1. Have you ever measured the voltage loss through the fuse? It is a small mm squared piece of metal to carry all those amps.
2. Could the voltage loss through the fuse have made your voltage at the inverter go below its cutoff point causing those unexpected power downs?
3. Many fuses advertise "delayed action". That allows the fuse to hold through a short power inrush period until the running amps are within the fuse specs.
A T Burke
That’s what I was thinking. Run them 20 amps higher than rated for say 2 or three minutes. The heat will probably build up and trip the breaker.
Usually don't comment but I really like this video.
Happy to hear that! 🤙
Stay away from the no name Amazon and Ebay specials...the only thing worse than a circuit breaker tripping too soon is one that does not trip at all and burns your house/vehicle to down.
Indeed🤙
FUSE AND BREAKER RULES OF THUMB.
The rule of thumb for fuses is 125% of the wire gauge amperage rating to protect the wire and the maximum expected current should not exceed the wire rating.
And for breakers it is 100% of the wire gauge amperage rating to protect the wire, or 125% the maximum expected current under normal operation, whichever is lower.
Even though breakers and fuses do not blow at 100% their rating by design, you never want the expected current under normal operation to ever be anywhere near their rating because when it is the breaker and/or fuse will get maximally hot "without blowing". You never want these things to get that hot, particularly when you have a bunch side by side in a panel.
By way of example this is why for example the maximum normal current on, say, a 50A circuit with a 50A breaker should not exceed 40A in a house circuit. 40A * 125% = 50A. 50A * 80% = 40A. 125% going up, 80% going down.
The same applies for DC wiring.
-- FUSES --
It's hard to dial-in an accurate melt point taking into account ambient temperature and other heat sources (such as several fuses next to each other). Because of that, fuses are generally not suppose to blow at their rating, but well above the rating.
Fuses have a blow curve just like breakers. Typically requires 3x to 5x the rating for immediate blow (less than 1 second), and 1.5x the rating to blow in less than 10 seconds. Below the 1.5x rating the fuse might not blow at all, ever. Or it might. It's a big question mark between 1.0x and 1.5x.
The biggest problems occur when the fuse doesn't blow at all or the heat causes the fuse casing or fuse holder to melt without the fuse blowing. This is a big problem, in particular, with blade fuses (fuse itself melts without breaking) and glass fuses (fuse holder melts).
I.R. ratings vary according to fuse type. From worst to best... blade, glass, Monster, ANL, ceramic, T-class ceramic. Roughly. There are others. Monster and higher is suitable for solar / battery / power systems. T-class main battery fuse when a large number of batteries are parallleled.
-- SLIDER STYLE BREAKERS --
For breakers, there are several types. Those slide style breakers you were testing are typically "thermal only" trips with relatively low I.R. (interrupt rating... maximum current it can interrupt). So, for example, the Blue Sea 50A breaker has an I.R. of 5000A @ 14VDC, 3000A @ 28VDC, and only 1500A @ 48VDC.
These "thermal only" type breakers do NOT have a secondary magnetic trip which means that they do not instantly trip on a short circuit (though they are still reasonably fast). They are also almost universally always polarized... they only work properly when current is flowing in a particular direction, which makes them unsuitable as battery breakers where current can flow in either direction.
These are very low-end breakers. About as cheap as it is possible to get and still have usefulness. Only suitable in low-voltage systems. I personally would never use these things in a 48V system, for example. Well, I don't use this style at all, I stay away from them. (That said, BlueSea is a good brand).
-- MCB and MCCB DC breakers --
MCB = miniature circuit breaker. MCCB = same thing with a moulded case (higher I.R., lesser spark egress from casing).
A 2-pole DC MCB breaker typically has a much higher I.R.. For example, 3000A @ 100VDC and much higher at lower voltages. This type of breaker has two trip mechanisms... it has a thermal trip similar to the slide style breakers, and it also has a magnetic trip that instantly trips on a short (typically at either 3x the rating or 5x the rating depending on the type). And this type of breaker also typically has an ARC extinguisher whereas most slider type breakers do not.
MCB and MCCBs and other full breakers usually come either polarized or unpolarized. Polarized DC MCBs and MCCBs have higher I.R. ratings but are very easy to mis-wire. Unpolarized DC MCBs and MCCBs have decent I.R. ratings and the current direction doesn't matter (but they may still be marked for current direction anyway).
Generally speaking when using breakers in solar / battery / power systems, 2-pole breakers should always be used. Break on both the positive and the negative. Unpolarized breakers are recommended for safety, especially for DIYers who would otherwise be likely to wire-up a polarized breaker incorrectly.
-Matt
I'm new at this can I ask you a Q? So is it wise to over spec the cables to handle more than the BMS can ever put out, then simply buy fuses that can handle the BMS max output? I ask this because I read and heard that you should always fuse/buy breakers for the wires gauge.
@@scotth9984 Basically, yes. It never hurts to over-size cables (as long as doing so isn't too inconvenient or costly), because you might want to expand the system further later on by adding more batteries in parallel and so forth.
I always size actual fuses for the wire gauge and I size breakers for 125% of the expected maximum current. But there is no hard and fast rule.
If you are going to size the fusing to the maximum expected normal operating load, use 150% as a rule (as long as it is not higher than 125% of the wire gauge rating). The reason is you don't want your fuses getting hot if you can help it. It's unnecessary heat and unnecessary voltage drop across the fuse.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 ok Thank you, much appreciated.
Copy and paste into my notebook. as usual my friend! Wealth of great information that I go back and read all the time. Mahalo!🤙
Holy cow! lol...🍍
Just the video I have been waiting for, and you didn't burn anything down. Thanks Bob!
My pleasure🤙
So all these fuses and breakers are really underrated. Which means for the system we are to build should have a fuse or breaker at least thirty amps lower. That’s what I think I will do.
I thought the same thing but I'm not sure if that's a good idea yet. Need more opinions by people who know more than I do.
It's got me rethinking some too🤙
Many people have the misconception that fuses are a brick wall at their rating. This could not be further from the truth. A fuse will blow on a curve determined by time and amperage (and somewhat by temperature). For example, and 80amp fuse may blow at 79 amps after several hours. It will probably blow slightly quicker at 81 amps, but still take a very long time. And then add to this tolerance/precision - if you pick up a dozen 80 amp fuses from the same manufacturing lot, they will not behave exactly the same. I don't remember the normal precision. Buss or Littlefuse might have published specifications but for various nameless import fuses, nobody knows.
Breakers are somewhat more precise, but still not absolute. there are actually two types of breakers with very different characteristics: thermal breakers take longer to blow and magnetic breakers are subject to more false tripping. Often breakers will combine the two, resulting in a breaker than will run for a long time at its rating but blow quickly with a significant overload. Again, name brand breakers are highly likely to meet published specifications but the same cannot be said for random items purchased online.
Good stuff🤙
Eye opening!! Holy cow, will definitely test mine. Seems like smaller automotive fuses are much more accurate. I've changed many blown fuses for 12 v cigarette lighter adapters!
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You funny cats ok 😅 changing my breakers 50 amps main breakers .only using 1200 watts 12 volts system .. keep my 100 amps breakers for back up in case. Crazy .. I don’t want van go up in flames
Great information Bob. I melted a fuse block with a 125amp fuse and the BMS tripped. In stalled a cheap 100 amp breaker it will trip before the BMS ON A 1000W inverter. I am running a 2ooah Lipo4 with 100 amp BMS.
Mahalo!🤙
Wow, 60a fuse not blowing until 100a+? Honestly, this is scarier that I thought initially since I design the load for the current on the wire but now think I will be downgrading my fuse rating to be extra safe. Gary in SE Michigan
I thought it was interesting and was surprised on some of the results too! Aloha!🤙
so the takeaway is: dont be a cheapskate and oversize the wires properly so the overcurrent the breaker or fuse allows for doesn't burn your wires + house down.
Indeed!🤙
Ahhh good stuff Bob..
Very interesting and glad you decided to share this experiment..
My pleasure buddy!🤙
I only use ones with UL on them. like Busmen/Littelfuse/Blue sea systems. They break much closer to rating. That goes for both fuses and breakers. It's ok to but Amazon ones as long as name brand with UL . and if it's not just send it back. Them no-name cheap ones are dangerous. Them fuses had no name on them either. The ANL ones I use have BUSS or Littelfuse on them with UL stamp on the copper bar. like your battery terminal. That had UL stamp on ring. Look for that. That Underwriters LABS . They do independent testing. A must for the USA NEC code. And Blue Sea systems are waterproof ! Extra protection. like a roof leak or pipe burst but it and it gets wet. I use in RV systems . The ANL fuse holders look ok to use. Just get BUSS replacement fuses. Littelfuse is UL and good as well. Just watch Amazon of eBay before you buy ! Check seller out first. Great testing !
Great stuff Roberto! You always tell us what we need to consider! Mahalo!🤙
Real good video. would like to see the same config but at 24 and 48 volts too.
I still have not assembled my 24v system but ts all here.
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Great video bob
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LOL.. I'm boiling some noodles right now with my Nuwave Gold hotplate. 1320w being powered by my Ecoflow Delta 1300. Bring the noodles to a boil and turn it down to 420 degrees. I have a couple of those windynation ANL fuses. I cooked a 150.. That's what happens with 400Ah lithium being 25' away from the inverter. Batteries are now happy being 6' away. Using 200a fuse now.. no issues. good to know about these fuses and breakers.
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great test, very good info to know. thank you
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I'm surprised they went so far over before blowing. But I'm not an electrician. Kind of scary if you ask me.
I was surprised as well!🤙
Shocking results???Just kidding I have seen those cheaper breakers catch fire . Have fun stay safe.
Mahalo!🤙
Most fuses are designed to hold the rating continuously. They usually blow at twice rated. The fuse would overheat at rated if they are designed to blow close to rated. The fuse you need if you want to do rated is glass filled fast blow which are quite expensive. I just underrate ANL/blade type fuses
Cheap circuit breakers usually overheat and disconnect under rating, so I usually double needed rating. The rule uf thumb, is these are just fail safes to prevent wire fires and choose ratings accordingly and always double check for heat at rated.
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Oh what a Sweet KITTY !!!
She is the princess!🤙
Hi Bob, I received the package you sent me a few days ago. Thanks !
Yup....I guess I'll be buying all new breakers and reducing fuse size. Thinking about the white breakers that go on the rail that you didn't test 😒
Glad it got there buddy! Those white breakers I use for disconnect only. They should not trip. Aloha!🤙
Wow, this is something I had not really tested before, but now I'm very concerned about all of my fusing. I use significantly over gauge wire for nearly everything but still... I have many different oddball brands of fuses and breakers and I'm gonna have to do some testing on these now. I think I'd like to know if they would withstand a sustained 10-20% over their rating for like an hour or more. Thanks for making a great video!
I'll be making a few changes myself! Aloha!🤙
I have always fuse my system way below speck as I don't believe you should run your system at a 100%. Seems to me if you need a 50 amp fuse, buy a 20 amp fuse.
next time can you test the t-tocas brand? i have heard good things about them. im considering using them as cut off switches
I have a couple of those in my systems...working well!🤙
Very interesting! Thank you!
My pleasure!🤙
Hey Bob I'm going to build a system just bought the watt meter and shunt next thing will be the inverter and then the batteries I'm going to charge this off the grid for now, this will be for emergency purposes only. Thanks
Good to have some backup Dennis..nice!🤙
I dont feel confident in any of these breakers or fuses. The wire size is chosen for the Amp fuse/breaker size, if you can pull 50+ amps over the rated spec then your wire size is now undersized for that increased amp draw.
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Good Afternoon ! Watching TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. TAKE CARE..
Aloha!🤙
Very eye-opening and certainly not reassuring as to the dependability of any of these. 40 to >100% over their rated capacity seems like a potential fire hazard. Wonder how they ever obtain/maintain any kind of certification standards, or quality-control with these? Mahalo. 🍍
I was surprised on some of the results!🤙
hey bob
Hey Lee🤙
@@ProjectsinParadise808 if you keep talking ill soon figure it out been lookin at victrons 100 30s for my 8 100 w panels maybe 75v s no wifi
welcome to the wonderful world of fuses Made in China, some blow too early (at 100A when rated 250A) in your case it's the other way around ... 60A fuse not blowing at 85A yep they surely don't give a damn about quality testing