Two Faces of Dysfunctional Love: Rosenberg and Vaknin about Narcissism and Codependency
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2015
- Ross Rosenberg, M.Ed., LCPC, CADC, CSAT talks to Sam Vaknin, PhD. (www.narcissistic-abuse.com/med...) about narcissism, codependency, and other attachment disorders.
Absolutely brilliant… Sam Vaknin is a mastermind… great appreciation to you for saving my life and allowing me to escape after 17 years with a covert narcissist. He thinks I’m still in his grasps due to his silent treatments but I’m done and have overcome other addictions and lost 40 kilos. The heart attack I had finding out about his other supply sources was the final straw and the real beginning of my life. Thank you 🙏
Narcissists are codependent. Completely agree with this.
So a codependent feels worse than the narcisist, but the codependent can heal with or without a therapist. The narcisist can´t heal himself, because he´s not aware of his problem, and the therapist can´t help either.
Adam Abele only a very small % of narcissist can be healed but never cured of narcissist behavior and only if they are aware of being a narcissist.
Deb Mottaz very sad reality
@@jimmysmith736 go to h👹
That's probably why codependents tend to feel sorry for the narcissist when they realize they ( the narcissists) had deeper damage psychologically than the codependent. Codependents fared better with better coping skills to handle the attachment trauma.
Denise Matteau Not true according to the doctor you cannot be both
So not true. Codependents have empathy something a narc doesn’t have.
miloluther Not always, especially where enmeshment is involved.
Yes, he's begging me to come back right now. He's promised to change everything in a lengthy email. I've heard it all before. He never changes. He has been promising to do so on and off for 45 years. This is the fjrst time that I left him. NEVER GOING BACK. I feel as though I have changed over the years; but he hasn't. I feel as though I have long outgrown him. If I were in a financial position to do so, I would have left him years ago. It is only now that I have the necessary finances to do this.
Stay strong!! You’ll reclaim yourself and live your best life. I did the same thing.
If the narcissist is filled to the brink with rage of course with any little upset that will spill out......on the other hand the codependent seems to be filled to the brink with guilt and with any little upset that spills out.
Perfect comment!!
Every narcissist i was with was damaged....and I wanted to help them. it makes sense! Wow! As children, my brother was picked on in school and disregarded by our parents bc of his stuttering, now he normally will just do things for his own benefit. On the flipside, our parents gave me more positive attention (bc I was a girl and girls are "delicate"), but still very demeaning. Now I know why I want to help people and my bro wants to do for himself ( usually). It's the "same coin", but opposite sides! !Eureka! Still learning! Thank you!
Three cheers for Dr. Rosenberg and Dr. Sam Vaknin.
the tragic sides of the coin: Attachment Trauma: Self Love Deficient Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder thank you for all the hard work and dedication to helping others.
Thanks again and again to two of my recent go to sources for information about npd and c-d. Im so happy you do what you do Sam Vaknin and Ross Rosenberg. Outstanding work gentlemen, thank you.
Great conversation guys. A lot of valuable information being passed around. I have been following both of you for some time now.
Sam is like the Dexter of Narcissism.
@@ai172 That's not what she meant
Brilliant!
Cold Empathy is the revelation of the day for me..and currently an urgently required one....thank you Sam and Ross.
Sam and Ross are doing great work in this area. Sam deserves credit for his effective intellectual efforts. From Sam I got a sense of closure by proxy. Ross deserves a pat on the back too for his scholarship. He showed me what a healing codependent looks like.
love and hate is the root of love, narcism and codependancy is a lak of selflove..thats how I see it
To a certain degree I see this in all people engaging in all relationships. The problem happens when it becomes extreme or the fighting is all the time.
If you’ve got that you’ve got it all🔥🧘🏽♀️🙏🏽
Love everything about this back and forth sharing of ideas and research. Thank you for posting.
Your videos are of real help for so many people! Great great stuff!
Love the honesty. Very truthful and insightful
Excellent thank you Dr. Rosenberg y Dr. Vaknin..I appreciate all of your valuable knowledge y insight especially your professionalism! Thank you y Happy New Year!! Peace...
You continue to show me a way through life..thank you.
Thank you for this insight into such an emotionally charged subject!
Vaknin and Rosenberg thank you so much
Coming to this conclusion and the thought process to meet
Wonderful discussion! Thanks for sharing!
You guys are both great. Thank you!
Excellent video Dr. Vaknin
excellent vid! answered so many ?'s for me. Glad this went smoothly. thanks!
Fantastic and interesting interview. I learned a lot Thank you both very much!!
Brillante!!! What outsmart contribución to society!!!Bravo
Thank you so much for your help! 😀
Self Aware Narcissist... is that a superpower?
I love that this collab happened for so many reasons especially for adding support to my hope that the overall statistics of revovering or activiely engaged in and commited to healing their narcissictic wounds and becoming a part of the solution in creating a healthier, happier, loving univere of ALLs not ME`s wont be in the single digits much longer and will see a day when the wounded children diagnostic pie looks more like half cheese half pepperoni than a 9 slice cheese 1 slice pepperoni, hot peppers, bananas and half olives it has been.
I can't imagine a better way of understanding both NPD and co-independence thank you,
😙 Thanks Sam and Thanks Ross.
I have long sensed the compensatory aspects of the narcissist in my life and the deeply wounded human being within.
wow i abslutly enjoed the 2 of you , a lots to learn
Wow you guys together is terrific
Love it everything I think of comes up great video !!!
Vankin states he "channels and leverages" his narcissistic needs into socially acceptable - and even socially beneficial ways. Fantastic! (Reminds me of the premise for Dexter, who was ultimately healed in the fictional TV series. I believe that Dexter was a fabulous portrayal of recovery from a traumatic wound very similar to narcissism: sociopathy.)
My sense is that narcissism lies within each victim the way a black dot lies within the white space of a Yin-Yang symbol. Similarly, a small white dot (a tendency to victimhood and vulnerability) lies within the black space of the Yin-Yang.
I am so glad to be out of that dance! (or at least, for the most part, see it clearly enough to walk away--or break away--from such invitations to dance.)
Wonderful interview! Thank you for posting.
Great interaction. Thanks grownups
Good one thanks doc!
I am/was considered on the codependent side but what was really confusing for me was that I did not really feel totally as a codependent type because at a later age I maybe was scared of losing people when standing my ground but did it anyway (felt really alone, but somehow knew I had to push through).... Later on a therapist learned me that I'm highly intelligent.... did not really understood it at that time what that meant, I first thought he meant high IQ or something, but later on I learned that you can also have an Emotional Intelligence or Spiritual Intelligence. So I walked alone through the dark not knowing where I would end but trusted the feeling that this is best for me and my environment to finally break the negative cycle and grow to balance. So Sam, not everyone has to become a "full blown" codependent with narcissistic parents right?
I doubted myself often because I was a case where I was highly aware that something was "off" with myself or my environment but could not explain in words yet what it was and my believe was that because I had no rational explanation I could not really trust this feeling I had and had to wait for "evidence" (something that was showable, not only feeling). This is why I stayed and suffered too long in relationships with coverts.
Now I know and truly trust to go with my intuition and that only my intuition (no rational explanation needed) is enough evidence too to put my trust in.... Covert narcisism is really the hardest thing to overcome I believe and takes a much longer time to truly realise you were not crazy.
Thank you for being the Angel that you are in this topic and hope you can follow what I'm trying to say!
SherLight I so can relate to this entire post! Only difference is that I only stayed for three months and as soon as the gaslighting started I was out! Only two weeks now but I feel like I will be over this soon because of the awareness and sanity this information provides
Good for you Suzie Jones, keep moving forward! ...it will indeed get better especially because of the shorter period you were exposed to this behaviour and the information that is available nowadays. Keep trusting your intuition, you're on the right path! :)) Much Love&Light and stay healthy!
I have seen the on\off switch of empathy thrown so often.... but I’m not sure how conscious that that action is.
Love the discussion! I am codependent (to a fault) and also suffer from Social Phobia and Depression, I have very close Narcissists in my life who suck all of the life out of me. Any info for codependents who also suffer from comorbidities (specifically Social Phobia/ and or Depression) and how to effectively deal with Narcissists while suffering from my own debilitating disorders? Is the comorbidities that I suffer from a defense mechanism from a lifetime of dealing with Narcissists (past and present) or is it something I developed independently?
Love to hear your thoughts or guidance! You both are brilliant! Thank you!!!!!
I recently ended a 1 year relationship in which I believe I was with a covert narcissist. Before that I had been in a 2 year relationship with an overt narcissist. After the first relationship, I did my homework to identify what exactly happened to me. I realized that my mother was NPD or Borderline.
Unfortunately I didn't see the covert narcissist coming, as I didn't think there would be one waiting in the wings for me. There was much passive aggressive crazy making. Afterwards, I see all the signs clearly.
Sam and Ross say that narcissism is caused by abuse, but my covert narcissist claimed to have the perfect childhood, claiming to have never been punished or yelled at.
My question is: Can covert narcissism develop from selfish entitlement?? Thanks!
+Ryan Cavanaugh Pathological narcissism is a reaction to prolonged abuse and trauma in early childhood or early adolescence. The source of the abuse or trauma is immaterial - the perpetrators could be parents, teachers, other adults, or peers. Pampering, smothering, spoiling, and "engulfing" the child are also forms of abuse - see these:
vaksam.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html
vaksam.tripod.com/npdglance.html
vaksam.tripod.com/journal42.html
metapsychology.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=de&id=419
Narcissistic and psychopathic parents and their children - click on the links:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4727
The Genetic Underpinnings of Narcissism
vaksam.tripod.com/journal43.html
Portrait of the Narcissist as a Young Man
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5048
Adolescent Narcissist - A Case Study
samvak.tripod.com/narcissistadolescent.html
+Sam Vaknin Thank you!
@@samvaknin 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
@@samvaknin j
At 12.00 excellent description of the creation of both narcs or codeps
This is absolutely true. In my relationships with narcissists, we seemed to have a huge amount in common but dealt with in very different ways. The narcissists seemed codependent “ too but it manifested in a different manner. Where as we as codependents can really love someone and bond with them , the narcissists seems to be able to be with someone without truly loving or attaching to them. ?
Great discussion. It was great to hear sone different perspectives on narcissist including that they're also codependents and often angry.
Their anger playing a key role in their being inconsiderate.
I also found it am important piece where it was noted that certain types of narcs do have empathy and can feel emotions, like love.
It's related awful that most information about narcs dehumanize them and make it seem like they're completely void of being able to form connections.
Anyone who was with a narc knows they can. The problem is that sustaining the connection or maintaining a healthy relationship with them becomes difficult because of their illness.
Not necessarily their intention or inability brought feel emotions.
They also have insecure attachment styles. Noting them as "needy" was also a great point. When the person they feel they need is leaving them, they panic and flip out or they leave before hand to avoid the negative feelings. And yes, at times, they leave to punish out of resentment.
But even that, resentment is an emotion.
Also, anger is an emotion and if they can feel those emotions they can also feel other emotions. Like love.
Not making a case for them or to defend them.
Just hoping to help others remember they're human and to remember their disorder is a complicated illness they didn't ask for (and often aren't able to realize they have due to the symptoms).
Set boundaries with them, yet give them compassion.
Often narcs are criticized for lacking empathy but most comments and posts about them are from people who show them no empathy. The irony.
We give and receive love according with our level of conscious ( vibration).
Oh Gosh, Interesting... COLD Empathy ... So much to learn, thx for posting this video y'all
Very good and courageous video. After watching I have concluded that co-dependents and narcissists both lack a core-personality. Is this correct?
thank you for your co occupation !
Very true comment about plethora of non-referenced or cited views of Narcissism/codependency from general population. I understand the experiences of others but it can be harmful to promote these views to others without solid evidence of scholarly bodies of work. I have been upset by comments and views of some people on support sites and now avoid them and stick to the experts like yourselves. thank you.
+alys Freeman Can You Diagnose Your Narcissist? ua-cam.com/video/FzLFSCzUzNA/v-deo.html
Two of my favorite doctors that talk about narcissism and codependency.
Was the training and panel discussion recorded and published?
I agree with amost everything you have said here Dr. Rosenberg- with all due respect- except the becoming narcissistic due to 'being overly selfish' or too self indulgent after what you went through after your breaking away from your codependency. I really think of that as a major phase of healing and I believe that it balances itself out after. Strangely enough I went through a similiar period in my life but as soon as I went back to the Narc I fell back (not right away because I thought that I was strong enough to fend him off) into my codependency and my feeling hopelessness. Though I was much more conscience of what was happening and I felt I was slipping into where he had me before I left and began to heal. Does this make any sense? What I am trying to say is- Does it make you a narcissist when you are practicing self-loving?
Narcissism and self-healing www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq23.html
Wow!
29:12 Narcissism as rooted in overwhelming persistent anger. Goes on to explore narcissistic experiences of love.
.....feeling braver now.
I’m watching the panic phase right now, with some fear and trepidation.
When are you guys coming to Holland? We really need it here ;)
I go where I am invited.
Ok, hope you'll get invited soon then! Thanks!
Spartan Life Coach, my wife, Lidija, Leyla Loric and I are having a seminar in Liverpool in December: spartanlifecoach.com/sam-vaknin-seminar-liverpool/
Will you guys ever come to the UK?
very true
The definition of Narcissistic love is the next new revelation of the day....
I believe people can change anything they put their passion and desire into and thats a change "both children" and their adult selves deserve to have in life first and foremost. We all deserve to know its safe to love and be loved and not even have the built in response to fear anything pertaining to healthy love whatsoever.
I need HElp, I think am married to one. and I am very confused about how to deal with this because of kids. Please I need one to one Help.
Wow, that makes perfect sense.... when angry, empathy goes out the door with some people who appear to be narcissistic. The difference is where do you use the diagnosis of "narcissist", as opposed to maybe narcissistic tendencies? I used the term malignant narcissist to describe my mother. But my current bf is dealing with tremendous stress, and empathy appears gone completely when he's upset. I have C-PTSD and a history of co-dependency, and had to leave for awhile. (Interestingly, if you believe in numerology- I'm a 9 and he's a 33 and everything I've read is unbelievingly right on!). hhmmmm
Who is a narcissist? www.narcissistic-abuse.com/1.html
Is the Covert part already out?
Search my channel for videos on covert narcissism.
Thanks I will, but in the video at 40:54 you guys mention that your next episode you guys will talk albout covert narcissism. When is this episode coming out?
I'm a codependant n I'm not sure, but I think my sister n my brother are as well. I believe my mom was a codep. She was still parentifying me at 34. I remember when we lived together on n off, that I felt she was my daughter n sometimes my mom. She'd financially abuse me n sometimes hide some of things for months n then tell that she had my stuff n returned it to me. I started paying my mom an allowance to spoil her when we 1st lived together. I gave her $200/week. However when I stopped she'd have a little fit in the kitchen. Plus she had different relationships with my brother n I, n she really wasn't there much for my younger sister, the middle child. After my mom passed, my sister said, you n David had mom, but I never had her.
It says in the Bible or Holy Book that we can become angry but not sin. Anger is not a sin in itself. And the person that hurts the most is the angry person. For me personally, I cannot hold onto anger. For that too is a sin. If there is a quarrel or a disagreement resulting in anger between the two parties then you are not to go to bed until it's resolved. Do not let the sun go down in anger. Another words don't go to bed angry. Get it resolved. We are never supposed to hold onto anger or have a grudge. That is sin. And we are to forgive Seventy Times Seven. If someone never says they're sorry when they've wronged you, that is their sin in their heart not yours. I let it go and start a new day.
Hi Dr Ross. Dr Sam. I am just divorced from a narcissist and he was crying at the end begging me to stay and now he is asking me for where he can get treatment in hope to get together. I still love him
Healing and Curing Narcissism
vaksam.tripod.com/faq63.html
vaksam.tripod.com/faq77.html
vaksam.tripod.com/faq70.html
vaksam.tripod.com/faq12.html
vaksam.tripod.com/10.html
vaksam.tripod.com/case03.html
vaksam.tripod.com/faq31.html
vaksam.tripod.com/abusefamily8.html
vaksam.tripod.com/personalitydisorders37.html
vaksam.tripod.com/personalitydisorders45.html
Links to Therapist Directories, Psychological Tests, NPD Resources, Support
Groups for narcissists and their victims, and Tutorials:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5458
Support groups for victims of narcissists and psychopaths (and one or two
groups for narcissists)
dmoz.org/Health/Mental_Health/Disorders/Personality/Narcissistic/Support_Groups/
Mayada Hussien This behavior on his part is called hoovering . There are several good videos on it, one by Dr. Vaknin. Best wishes.
@@AH--173 thanx, i already left him. Getting educated about that helped alot.
@@time2bherenow thanx, it is late to answer but just read that. I really left him and thanx to God and getting educated here about my situation
@@samvaknin Thank you Sam, you were a gr8 support for me that period, sorry for the late reply, just saw it
+Sam Vaknin, But isnt it true that the codependent also has a skewed idea of what love is? I agree that for the narcissist love means finding someone they can get their source of security, and narcissistic supply. For the codependent, love is something they have to work for, losing themselves even. No?
+PomPom Chick The title of this video is "The TWO faces of DYSFUNCTIONAL Love: Narcissism and Codependence". Which part of it do you find difficult to understand?
Yes. That is the title. However, I felt that in the video, at some point it I felt it was emphasized how the narcissist perceives "love" in a faulty way, different from what normal people would.I believe those were the words that were used (normal) by both of you. What I was saying is that also the codependent also has a skewed perception of love, not just the narcissist. But then again, you did say they are both sides of the same coin... Anyway, the reason that particular aspect jumped at me is because I am codependent, and I am having to learn what healthy normal looks like and how it should feel. I have to tell you it is one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. Do you coach people Sam?
DSM5 cold empathy is self serving, they turn it on as it self serves and turns it off to justify their bad behaviour. Sam do you beleive a lot of narcs have people pleaser syndrome?
+Leeanne Rose The
Pathological Charmer samvak.tripod.com/case05.html
Leeanne Rose yes I do believe they are people pleaser
?? Love, sure but what about Like??
I appreciate the well articulated description of the way a narcissist expierences love. I am an empath & also very codependant involved with a true narcissist. I know he loves me (in his own unique way) though our relationship has so far been 3 years of violent, rage fuled fights coupled with the most intense connection either of us have expierenced.
We want a chance to succeed but this last year we have had to spend most of our time apart.Good part is we were able to step back and get perspective. I identify some issues that need addressing. And one of those I noticed is he doesnt like me. I see how he treats his friends and strangers..I asked him why he is able to be kind to everyone but me. He told me he has different expectations of me. He holds me to higher standard. Totally not fair. I asked if he likes me and he said he loves me. I dont think he knows there is difference. Would you help us to understand the difference and offer some advice on how to dance in harmony.
thank you ☆♡☆
Sunny
The only way to dance in harmony is to dance apart - or become his slave: www.narcissistic-abuse.com/npdtips.html
are narcissistic people able to like anyone?
They IDEALIZE potential and actual sources of supply, which is not the same as LIKING them: Approach-Avoidance Repetition Complex and Fear of Intimacy groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5000
Distorted Sunny , this person sounds like he's manipulating you and a bull-shiester. Your worth more than that.
Sandra Russell I have always trusted my"gut feelings" and I know he loves me. in his own way. You are right, he is also full of bull shiest. I call him out on it and we argue. I have had a tough time trying to decide if I want to leave or stay with him. Being with him has made me a better person in all aspects. I adore him and truly believe there is a way for us to make our relationship work to bennifit both of us in possitive and productv ways.
More importantly: I have seen the parasitic entity or enery vampire that is attatched to him feeding off of him and causing problems for his life. To abandon him without doing all I can to raise his awarebess & help rid him of this would be selfish of me. I know it sounds rediculous to folks who have not heard of these entities before. I know what I have seen and have done enough research that I can not in good conscience leave him without trying. I welcome all suggestions or shared stories. please email me at:
DistortedSunny@gmail.com
thank you again Sam and Ross for all you do. ☆♡
If Narcissist are capable of love, then why do they cheat on, and triangulate their partners with other supply?
Narcissists, psychopaths, sex, and marital fidelity
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4920
Narcissists and Emotions
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5248
Same side of the coin....the revelations just keep coming....
34:00
Sad and tragic coin.
Attachment trauma
Unable to cope
Deeply damaged
Does medicine help? Medical mari
This is a bit confusing for me... up til now I learned & experienced that narcissists have no real empathy or love... neither for others nor for themselves...
Narcissists have COLD empathy www.narcissistic-abuse.com/personalitydisorders68.html
Thank you Sam! I watched your video about cold empathy, made things much more clear to me. As you also say in the video, like probably most people I connect the word empathy with compassion... so I personally would call "cold empathy" something like "internal radar" or similar. Thanks for your great videos, they help tremendously
34:21 I believe the "love" they have is same as with the "I love bananas". Yeah you love bananas, you love what a banana feels like in your mouth, on your tongue. That's all. I don't believe it's interpersonal love. And yes, you can fight for your garden of bananas. You can nurture your garden to give you more bananas. At the end, you eat'em. :)
Their brains are wired different
Does anyone have Sam Vaknin,s email address please?
My contact details are available in my media kit: www.narcissistic-abuse.com/mediakit.html
I am not good with a computer Dr Vaknin, I have tried to contact you via this site but its saying about your seminar coming up. Could you please advise.
my perp was in love with herself and was only ever using me.
+gotama420 - "Using" you with your permission.
carolannemac no she fooled me ,ive never been done like this before
+carolannemac of course with my permission, i was afool
omg, so it is a disorder?? this sounds so crazy, how can someone act like this?..
(Ross is so forgettable).. Thanks for your wisdom Sam