Repairman's Overview: C-Melody Saxophones (Super Rare Conn Used As Example)
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- Опубліковано 8 бер 2014
- Saxophone repairman Matt Stohrer of www.StohrerMusic.com actually gets a phone call mid-video from the customer to say he is on his way to pick up the saxophone being used in this fast-talking one-take edition of Repairman's Overview, wherein a super rare Conn 8M transitional "Naked Lady" C-melody saxophone is used to illustrate the what, why, when and how much of the ever present but poorly understood saxophone in C.
Videos I reference in this video:
Conn New Wonder II overview: • Repairman's Overview: ...
Conn New Wonder I overview: • Repairman's Overview: ...
Conn Microtuner: • Saxophone Repair Topic...
Conn lock screws: • Saxophone Repair Topic...
Conn transitionals: • Video
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This particular Conn C melody that Matt overhauled was actually what pushed us at GetASax to develop the GS RESO C melody mouthpiece. We wanted something that would bring out all the potential in this amazing instrument!
For those confused by the C-melody saxophone, don't let the tenor and alto saxophone freaks scare you - the C-melody should be the EASIEST saxophone to play by ear. BY FAR! And it IS easy - it was so popular because of it. If a musician is playing by the ear, what we *hear* is ALWAYS the absolute concert pitch. However, when on a Bb tenor the player fingers C, the sound made is actually Bb in absolute concert pitch. But not on a C-melody sax; for C fingering, the pitch of the sound is C concert. There are no shifts. So it is easy to play by ear using the C-melody, because the fingering matches what the pitch should be, and regardless what instrument makes it; the C-melody can match it EASILY. The C-melody sax does not need to play alto- or tenor-score, not at all - why would it? Because C-melody is a MELODY LEAD instrument, not a melody BRIDGE instruments (which tenor and alto saxophone are; they produce pitches RELATIVE to the concert key). As such, C-melody can play SO MUCH MORE: composer's-score, keyboard-score, piano-score, guitar-score, violin-score, flute-score, oboe-score, vocals-score, etc.
Thanks Matt, this is helpful. I acquired my Grandpa's Saxophone about a year ago, that has been sitting in it's case for decades upon decades. I was told by a professional horn player friend of mine that it was a C Melody Sax. I am finally at a point where I am now able to take it in to a respected horn shop in town and have them check it out and clean it up for me. I would love to learn to play, and am looking forward to it. I am a keyboardist and vocalist, so I'm quite horn illiterate, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. Thanks for the C-Melody 101, I truly appreciate it.
i bought one off craigslist for 15 bucks. It plays with the original pads and all it needed was a good polish
Wow! Congrats, but don't think I like you. LOL!
You must be one of the best refurbishers in the business.The alto in F was totally fascinating to behold. As you mention that instrument must be the prime example of its type. Congratulations on the most interesting information on the practically unknown mesop and for the superb craftsmanship you so devotedly bestowed upon the instrument. Thank you .
so that rotating sleeve near the mouth peice end of the neck is for tuning?
so rather then sliding the mouthpiece forwards or backwards, you get it snug and rotate till you're in tune?
I recently bought a ~1915 Conn "Wonder Improved" Alto (Factory 34). Seeing this makes me want to get a C-Melody sax now. I've had my eye on a couple of them, but I'll look out for something like this.
another fabulously insightful presentation
Great, informative,thank you for the mouthpiece info too! Happy Playing !
In my opinion, that's one of the most beautiful instruments I've ever seen, regardless of time period. It was kinda glossed over, but wow.
Thanks for the info bro! So interesting!
I’ve got a C melody soprano from 1921. It’s a H.N. King soprano in silver finish and gold washed inner bell...
Matt,
I have a C Melody from CG Conn and wanted you thoughts on it. It appears to be an odd ball.
the sax is a straight neck version with the floral style engraving, no big deal.... but here is the odd part
The sax is Factory Gold plated. which I have never seen in a C Melody.
I contacted the factory some years back and they said that they had a fire and a lot of records from the 1920s were lost. However One of the people that works there indicated that he believes that they only made 2 that they were made in 1922. they were made for a big name band. He couldn't remember which one, but since I found it in Pittsburgh which was a crossroads stop for players going from New York to Chicago and points west, it sort of makes some sense.
It is 5 digit serial number starting with 98###. It has been completely restored, and plays pretty well with an ARB mouthpiece (the original one goes flat and sharp depending on the fingering.
My question is, do you think the story I was told holds water? I thought these horns were relatively common in the 20s and 30s, but I have never seen a factory gold plated one....
Any thoughts?
thanks in advance
Haas F1
Nice to see one of those vintage horns where the fork E-flat key hasn't had the spring reversed.
Beautiful saxophone!
How does one keep the finish on an old horn like this from degrading? I have a Martin "searchlight" tenor that has completely non reflective almost red looking spots on it. Is that oxidation? How do you prevent this?
I’m buying one off eBay. Looking forward to adding this to my alternative rock sound.
What kind of pads you think are most suitable for this Conn C-melody? thanks
Do you know anything about the Martin Concertone? Just wondering since I'm looking at one right now and I could only find 2 people who knew anything about it.
stunning looking horn !
Where can I find the neck screw I have a conn Cmelody but don’t have the screw and it’s lose where can I find one ?
I really like C melody saxophone. I've been playing tenor sax for the past 4 years now. I would kinda say that it's like adjusting from tenor to alto. But I love the C melody saxophone. Here's a question. If you were to play this in a concert band, would part of the band would it be in? What I mean is would it be fit to play the oboe part on sheet music? Regardless of having to transpose it. I actually just realized that C melody doesn't go as high as I thought it did.
The C Melody sounds one octave lower than the oboe. The only band part that I think you could play on this instrument without transposing is a baritone (euphonium) treble clef. If you wanted to play an oboe part on a saxophone, you would want a C soprano (soprano saxophone in the key of C) which is exactly the same key as an oboe. There have not been any C sopranos made since 1929, and they are quite rare, but they exist.
The C-melody is a melody LEAD instrument. That's what you would be playing. C-melody is not a melody BRIDGE instruments (which tenor and alto saxophone are; because they produce pitches RELATIVE to the concert key). As such, C-melody sax can play an amazing array of scores: composer's-score, keyboard-score, piano-score, guitar-score, violin-score, flute-score, oboe-score, vocals-score, etc. You can easily play by ear next to vocals or piano, or guitar etc. or SUBSTITUTE any of those instruments/vocals. Whatever you want to play, learn the melody of the song, then improvise on top of it if you wish, and go ahead.
Thanks for this video. Do you think the new C saxes from China are any good? I’d really like a C sax. My wife is a pianist. I play tenor. I hate transposing.
Just noticed your ringtone.......Grand Central, right? ;-)
How do you tell if you have a C melody Conn?
HI Matt, I have a NW S1 c-mel with a curved neck. It has a good setup so I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm curious about your thoughts on differences between the two necks. I know the alto-style necks are more sought after and I'm curious if you've found many sonic differences between them (aside from the ergonomic differences). They come up every now and then and I've considered picking up a second neck.
I'll mention that I've found two peculiarities and not sure if they are specific to the S1 and if they were remedied on later Conns. The spacing between B and bis is wide and my finger tended to fall between; I adapted an Oleg bis enhancer for tenor to remedy (filed off a corner and used a longer set screw to make it work on c-mel). The other oddity is an extremely (25c) sharp D, in both octaves - not so unusual for the middle D to be sharp, but the low D is also much higher than the adjacent (low) C and E notes. Seems unlikely to be mpc matching because I'd think it would throw off the adjacent notes as well. I've found that I can bring the pitch down without affecting response/timbre with duct tape across the top of the low C vent, so I'm planning to install a cork crescent of similar dimensions to remedy. Otherwise, ergonomically it feels similar to my S2 alto--although I've found that I much prefer the nailfile G# on the S2; pinky tends to slip off the S1 smooth G#.
The spacing between the bis and B was also wide on the horn in the video, which I would guess means it is wide on all of the Conns since that horn is one of the last ones they made.
I had no such pitch issues with this horn, however.
As far as the necks, I've never gotten to A/B two different style Conn necks on one horn. If you do, let me know how it turns out!
I think Dave at Junkdude has one or two straightneck c-mels in stock - he's just 20 minutes from me so I'll see if I might be able to do a little comparo next time I'm in his shop. Will let you know!
i recently reapired my c melody sax that my grandpa gave me, the only issue that it has is that it runs a half step low. I am using a curved neck and was wondering if that could be the issue?
It depends on the mouthpiece; if you are using a tenor mouthpiece, try pushing the mouthpiece deeper into the cork. The pitch should rise.
how am I going to find this or buy this kind from?
If your question is "where can I buy a C melody saxophone," the answer is "there are 100 of them for sale on ebay." If your question is "where can I buy a Conn lady-portrait C melody saxophone," they are so rare that your only hope would be to contact each of the vintage saxophone dealers (getasax.com , vintagesax.com , junkdude.com, saxquest.com, etc. ) and tell them you want to buy one.
Maybe you said it and I missed it, but what about the diameter of the neck cork? Is it roughly in between the alto and tenor cork diameter? From comments here and all over the blogosphere, it sounds like folks are using alto and tenor mouthpieces on the c-melody saxophones on a case by case basis of whatever fits, sound good, and tunes is what they decide to use.
I've heard people strongly suggest to use a tenor sax mouthpiece. I've been using a tenor mouthpiece on mine as well (but that's because I don't have a alto sax mouthpiece). But because the sound of the C melody sax is really close to the tone of the tenor, I would suggest tenor mouthpiece.
@@RoseCadenza Better yet, get the Morgan C mel mouthpiece.... they are worth every penny and make C mels a JOY to play. This is the one time you will end your search for a 'perfect' mouthpiece quickly.
Would it be right to assume that it would be more worth getting a C-melody rather than a tenor? The transposing is not as bad from Bb to C as opposed to Eb to C.
The only case where you would be happy with a C melody would be if you were reading off of music that was not written for saxophone. If you are going to be playing in a concert band or jazz ensemble, a C melody would be useless, because there are no parts written for it.
C's are most useful for stuff like Church gigs in my experience.
Pretty much in situations where you would be the only one needing transposed parts, so they just tell you to figure it out yourself
@@mdickinson Not really. If a musician is playing by the ear, what we * hear* is ALWAYS the concert pitch. When on a Bb tenor the player fingers C, the sound is actually Bb. But not on a C-melody; for C fingering, the pitch of the sound is C. There are no shifts. So it is easy to play by ear using the C-melody, because the fingering matches what the pitch should be. C-melody does not need to play alto or tenor score, not at all - why would it? But it can play SO MUCH MORE: composer's-score, keyboard-score, piano-score, guitar-score, violin-score, flute-score, oboe-score, vocals-score, etc.
my saxes pads are F**KED UP !!! Where is ur store?
when you key a low D compaired to a b flat what key is that? that is an e ?whats the open tone without anything fingered?
The open tone with nothing fingered would be a concert C# and the low D would be a D concert.
How many prizes this
What is the "mystery" small tone hole on the back lower side of the bell? What does that do?
I think that is an Eb trill key.
It's the forked E-flat key, also called E-flat trill key. It allows an alternate fingering for E-flat, which is the following fingers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6. It is found on all saxophones from the 1920s and early 1930s. Because it is difficult to adjust and most players don't use it, this pad is often corked shut.
I have one like that except mine is in nickel plate and the engraving is not as ornate. With the original mouthpiece , it has a beautiful, classical alto type sound. I have a modern C_Melody mouthpiece that takes tenor reeds, with it if kind of sounds halfway between tenor and alto, in my opinion, not a tone a like that much, but some people do. With a Ducoff, metal piece , in an 8 facing it has the jazziest tone. I think it I played it alot I could really get some great tones out of it, alto, tenor, and the in between sound. Like I said, I don't really like the "in between" sound but if it was my main instrument I think I could get it sounding good. Never tried it with an alto mouthpiece, but I'm going to. I have a lot of student alto mouthpieces laying around. Might experiment with them some. One problem is the ergonomics. After less then 30 minutes, both my little fingers get really sore. Again, if it was a main instrument, I'd have it worked on to improve the comfort. Oh at one time, I was talked to Steve Goodson about having mine redone in silver with custom engraving. He said, it would be about $2500.00, which as about eight times what I paid for the sax! I didn't do it but kind of wish I would have now, especially if he could have altered the key work to make it more comfortable to play.
What do you usually use for reeds?
Probably Tenor Reeds hard to find c melody reeds but bass clarinet or tenor sax will work
my c melody sax was padded ion Dec. 8, 1914
Getting proper reeds would be a problem. I have never heard of any company that makes them. An alto one would be too small. You could trim a tenor one, I guess, or use a bass clarinet reed (perhaps with adjustment), because they are a bit narrower than the tenor saxophone reed.
Most modern c melody mouthpieces use tenor reeds by design; with rare exception there is no need for a "c melody reed" unless you are playing the (widely agreed to be inferior to modern options) original mouthpiece, in which case you can actually get c melody reeds no problem from several current suppliers including Maccaferri
I think you mean "transposing" rather than "transcribing."
you are correct
nonooo if you wanna play a piece on a c melody, you have to listen to recordings and transcribe, there is no existing sheet music for that, you have to do it yourself ;) xD
@@kleeblattchen38 if I can play the piece without having to read it, then that's *transposing*
ricaard i think you‘re not quite getting the joke bro...
@@kleeblattchen38 I got it, I'm a bit slow! 🥴👌🏾🤣
I have to play the c melody saxophone because I already play the alto and tenor saxophone
I spy the Borgani! :) Hope yer liking it.
Don't ya mean transpose?
I have a 1914 C Melody
You talk a lot about roles tone holes. What exactly are roles tone holes?
I'll answer this in case you're still wondering, or somebody who sees this is wondering in the future...
He's talking about "rolled" tone holes. The tone hole is the the cylinder that protrudes at 90 degrees from the main body. They're also what you're closing the pad down onto when you're pressing a key. Straight tone holes have a straight edge on the tone hole, just like you'd find if you cut a piece of pipe with a saw - that's a "straight" tone hole.
A rolled tone hole is one that has had the edge of the tone hole rolled over and out of the tone hole itself. It forms a thicker edge of the tone hole which in theory makes it easier to seal a pad. I have found, and Matt can correct me if I'm wrong, that a skilled technician can fit a well-seated pad with a tighter seal on a straight tone hole.
As an example of the edge, imagine the cross-section of the tone holes. A straight tone hole will look like an " I ", whereas a rolled tone hole will have more of a " P " shape to it
Thanks a lot John.
No worries bro, happy I could help
I forgot...another aspect of rolled tone holes that can be problematic is that they can't be levelled with a file or stone like a straight tone hole. When I got my Mark VI overhauled my tech was able to flatten perfectly the tone holes which, when coupled with new pads, basically makes the instrument as good as (if not better than) new. Rolled tone holes can't be filed.
I believe “transpose” is the word not “transcribe”
You are correct and that error has always annoyed me
Anybody who's watching the video knows what he meant. The meaning is obvious.
Electric guitar craze started in the 80's? I think it died then. Nonetheless I absolutely love your overviews.
Do you know anything about the Martin Concertone? Just wondering since I'm looking at one right now and I could only find 2 people who knew anything about it.