Is the .38 Special REALLY So WEAK and Ineffective? 9mm VS .38 Special Speer Gold Dot Ballistic Test
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2021
- I hear it all the time "The .38 Special is anemic!", or "The .38 Special is so weak", but is it? Cartridge effectiveness comes from multiple factors and not energy alone, albeit that the .38 Special really isn't that weak! Testing Speer Gold Dot ammunition in .38 Special and 9mm in a ballistic gel test (10% Clear Ballistics), with and without medium density fiberboard to represent ribs or sternum. The .38 Special is a 125 gr+P and the 9mm is a 124 gr. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
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I have had a few people upset with these results and call BS on my assessment that the .38 Special did better than the 9mm in this test. Well, lets take away the MDF and count just gel penetration and expansion and lets just for this test say that 10% Clear Ballistics should be close to real ballistics gel where the FBI says 12" to 18" is what you want, and 4 layers of denim is close to the IWBA denim protocol;
So I give a total of 4 stars to be had, one for penetration for each barrel length and one for 1.5 time expansion that the FBI looks for.
In the entire test with the 9mm both plain gel shots in the 2 barrel lengths exceeded penetration, with the short barrel penetrating 35"+. None of the bullets got 1.5 times expansion, but in the 5" pistol it was close. End score for the 9mm in this total criteria is zero stars. With the .38 Special, while we got no expansion, we got 14.5" penetration with the 2" and 18" with the 4", this leaves the score of the .38 Special at 2 stars out of 4 and the 9mm at 0 out of 4.
Personally though, in my own made up grading system I will say that the 5" 9mm's expansion of 5.16" (just shy of 1.5 times 5.325") adds a half star and the mix, but we are still looking at 3 9mm bullets penetrating too deep and one decent expanding bullet, as where overall the .38 had perfect penetration and good damage, which has to add a half star in and of itself for really tearing up the gel without petaling back, i'll add a half star for that. End score, 9mm 0.5 out of 4 and the .38 Special 2.5 out of 4 stars.
Not to say that both calibers can't get four of four, just saying in THIS particular test, that the .38 Special WON.
If you shoot hollow point 12 inches will do the job
Great comparison. There is a lot to be said for "predictably" if you don't want to be haunted with the guilt of killing the neighbor kid with a total pass through bullet and/or do prison time for it. The .38 special is enough gun for 99% of what can be accomplished defensively with a handgun. IMHO
@@Salieri47 I believe that the test showed that in my opinion 12 inch penetration well placed with hollow point will do the job, which is to stop the threat. End of discussion.
@@thatguy7134 He said that he was running with common self defense loads. I know of nobody personally who runs +P in 9mm, nor do I know of anybody personally who does NOT run +P in .38 SPL. In any event, I seriously doubt if upping the pressures on the 9mm will HELP the over-penetration issues.
The transition from .38 SPL to 9mm in most police departments had little to do with a perceived ineffectiveness of the .38 SPL, and MUCH to do with the ineffectiveness of the average officer when it came down to hitting what they were shooting at. Only solutions to misses are to train the officers better or to give them more rounds and hope that they get lucky.
I'll take a .38 over a 9mm any day.... WITH MY RELOADS.
That includes 9mm+p. Which I've reloaded and experimented with. (Try finding reloading data on that).
When you're getting 1365 fps average with 9mm.......ah, might want to back off on the powder charge.
Self-defense use doesn't have to make major power factor. Let's all be smart on this.
The 38 Special is… special. It is an absolutely excellent cartridge.
There’s a reason it’s still out of stock at my LGS
I carried a Smith model 10 in 38 special throughout the 1980s and 1990s as a service weapon. Since retirement I now carry a Smith j frame model 642 in 38 special for the last 25 years and I do not feel that I need a larger weapon or any other caliber. But I am open to suggestions. Have a great day and keep looking for that better tomorrow
What load did you use? I'm looking into buying a Model 10 so I am also looking for ammo suggestions.
@@sipofsunscorchedsarsaparil6052 if memories serve me correctly our service ammunition was a lead hollow point semi wadcutter that was loaded to a target load I do remember they were not + p loads. Something to laugh about. We heard shooting out at the dog kennel and found the inmates had gotten drunk and broken into a truck put on bulletproof vests and were taking turns shooting one another. Lol seems like a lifetime ago . If you wondered about my snub its loaded with 125 gr half jacketed hollow points and yes they are + p s. .have a great day and a better tomorrow.
My dad was a 25 year veteran with the Philadelphia police department. He carried a 38 for all those years! And I now carry a model 60 S&W revolver and I’m not going to carry anything else! And I have 3 9mm pistols and they are all safe queens!
I’m not going to carry them because they are to big to conceal ! And to heavy! My dad was a detective for about the final 12 years of his service and he carried it to work every day! And he carried loose bullets in his pants pocket!
And I carry 3 speed loaders! It’s a 5 shot revolver for 357 but I carry 38+p loads! It’s a good man stopping load!
@Wild Tex seems hard to think I retired in August of 1996. So long ago.
As a Deputy Sheriff , I carried a S&W M66 4” loaded with .38 Special +P though most of the 1980’s…. I still work armed security these days ( sig M17) but my favorite dayly carry gun is my S&W 638 Airweight with factory CT laser grips, and +P ammunition.
My favorite comeback from viewers when a revolver round does better than a semi auto round, is "well you only have 6 rounds", which then goes into this whole "multiple attacker" scenario.
8 shots if you are willing to carry an N frame size gun
Well if only 5 or 6 statistically even if just 1 attacker u will only hit 1 time and u better hope that is a goof upper thoracic or super lucky rare cns shot because most are not
ive said for years revolvers arent obsolete they are a more labor intensive deal they can take a lifetime to master thats why a semi auto for 300 bucks that holds 3x as many rounds sells its better in almost every way but the ammo choice and shot placement and skill matters that is why god dot are a go to my dad cant use a modern 9mm very easy no grip strength but thats why he uses a budget revolver and speed loaders so its a give and take the semi auto has more potential but revolver isnt a dead format just under apreciated
I've been studying a lot of civilian shootings where the majority there is multiple attackers. I've seen quite a few and read about a lot more and they all have I common denominator. When the good guy shoots back everyone that is able scatters like clock roaches when the lights are turned on. So my opinion is these guys that want to use the multiple attackers excuse is a bunch of b.s. and one more internet myth.
Your accuracy just keeps improving and it continues to amaze me how well you do at the extended ranges.
The supersonic to subsonic I would be live has more to do with caliber bullet weight and design. It's another one of those things you need to do your own tests with your gun your ammo and your own ability.
Another cool video Sam I really appreciate it and ad always you make learning fun
@@rbm6184 my point is for someone that doesnt have that practice n the semi auto has the appeal i like revolvers alot just not always carry one
My department thirty-eight saved me more than once during my 30 yrs on the street & I still carry one in retirement.
.38 Special will leave you just as dead as any other cartridge. It just requires the shooter to be more aware of shot placement.
Dead doesn't matter stopping deadly threats immidiately does. Words matter
@@DanTheWolfman Neither the .38 nor the 9mm are considered one shot stop calibers though. You have to get up to .40 and .357 SJHP before you hit that criteria (unless you can find the coveted 9mm+p+ and if you have a gun that can handle it). So if neither are one shot stoppers, it comes down to getting two accurate shots.
OP is right because of the capacity. Hitting 2 shots out of 6 is harder than hitting 2 shots out of 15.
@@macriggland6526 124 plus p 9mm ir 124 plus p plus or 9bple are all far superior to anything. 38....and. 38 Underwood 125 and fed punch r the best. Carry what u want. I'm ok w someone carrying a revo as long as they carry 2 lol. 5" 9mm 124 plus p plus is nothing to sneeze at that ain't 3" 115 crap jhp. Neither are .45 hst
@@macriggland6526 The FBI doesn't think so. They went back to 9mm. 40 has turned out to be a bad choice. They found people tend to not hit what they're aiming at more. Even a 38 spcl and 9mm will go right through you. 357 and 40 more so. Shot placement is more important. Also not ball ammo. You want it to be a defensive round. That's really important.
Want a real one-shot stop? Get a 45 ACP. "More knock-down power." Larger caliber, larger wound going out. That's physics. (Let's start another 45 ACP flame war... LOL)
@@DanTheWolfman if you hit the same spot with both calibers, you won't notice much if a difference if at all. A lethal shot is a lethal shot, a non lethal shot is the exact same.
Practically speaking, it's the same.
.38 Special is NOT weak. It's nothing to laugh at. It's been around for over 100 years, police used and carried it for 90 years, still being made and carried today.
I always laugh at the guys who are like "if revolvers are good at all why did the military and police never use them!?" So funny, shows their youth as even I remember cops carrying revolvers in the early 90's when I was an adolescent.
@@GunSam I remember being a kid and seeing cops carrying revolvers in clamshell holsters. That was back in the Adam 12 days.
Thinking the first cop show that I saw them using an autoloader was Miami Vice. I think Don Johnson carried a 1911. His partner carried a snubnose 38.
@@GunSam That's right. The world only just began with the advent of millineals and their choice of tupperware shooters.
@@GunSam many dead westerners to the 1873 Colt single action. Dead Indians too. Don’t forget that.
Been watching you for a while now. I have to say you have some of the most complete and thorough ammo tests on youtube. Thank you. From where you started :water Jugs" to where you are now is awesome man. Keep up the great videos.
Thank you. I get a lot of complaints that I don't shoot water jugs anymore, but I really like the more precise penetration depths of the gel.
@@GunSam Love the Gel, hated the water jugs. Thanks for the good, detailed content.
@@GunSamDoing good Sam, keep at it.
The .38 Special has been enforcing the law since 1898, it still works Especially with a soft lead bullet of medium weight loaded fairly warm , soft recoil and report make it a desirable self defense tool.
no, it's not. It's a bad joke, as any one can discover for themselves by shooting a few animals with it.
@@billwithers1349 I have seen a few bad guys shot with it, none of which are currently living. All when I was young. The lady that owned a large liquor store in Modesto, California in the 60’s dispatched several holdup men with her S&W model ten over the course of twenty years or so.
@@donaldmartin4980 so? 22'lr's killed a lot of people, too. Issue is, did they stop to the shot, or bleed out after many minutes?
@@billwithers1349 true, but in real life, very few aggressors stop to the shot, depending on how high their adrenaline level is. Personally , I carry a .45 ACP with 230 grain hydra shock or HST bullets. But a hot loaded .38 with soft bullets is a lot better than nothing, the FBI used it for decades.
@@donaldmartin4980 230 gr jhp's dont expand in animal tests. Try it for your self. If you want proper stops, you use the Liberty arms 45 super or .100mm prefrags, 700 ft lbs. They work very well on critters. FBI, 8 of them, were taken on by ONE man in Miami, who already had a severed brachial artery and a bullet in one lung. He kiled2 of them, wounded 5 more and almost got away. THAT FBI, you "think' is waf? They spent 8 milllion $ in today's money discovering that lhp's dont shoot thru windshields waf. I could have told them that much, for free, in 1970. Their idea of needing 12" of penetration is a crock. What happens in jello is meaningless. I dont want more than 9" of penetration in an animal's chest. If I get more, it means that the bullet didnt expand like it should have and thus, wasted a lot of its power on overpenetration.
I'm fine with a 6 shot revolver in.38 special for EDC. Pull and point. Bedside is when I want a high capacity 9mm
it's a natural trigger squeeze. if there is any truth to "fine dexterity is negatively impacted during an adreno-dump" then a heavy DA squeeze would seem to mitigate that. grip it and rip it! don't gotta worry bout the glock dingle and allocating different levels of strength to different fingers at the same time.
Hitting the target at 75 yards with a handgun constantly is incredible. You're a good shot.
I love my 38's but the way those 9's work are interesting. I like your tightly edited and clear, short videos. Good stuff.
Lee Harvey Oswald was killed with 1 shot from a .38 special from a 2" barrel, standard pressure and not a hollow point.
At contact distance, however. Jack Ruby stuck the snub to Oswald's belly and pulled the trigger. You can see that clearly in the picture.
As usual, a good review. Your continued testing of the .38 special round shows that it is a valid home defense round. While I was surprised at the lack of expansion, the penetration was basically perfect.
Thank you. Just goes to show time and time again how non expanded HP's are not the same as FMJ.
You have the best ballistic tests on YT. Bar NONE. They are fair and well presented. Thanks for the great vid and all you do!
Thank you.
I remember back to when I only had a .45ACP semi auto and got curious about powder charge and projectile type characteristics which lead me to choosing a .38spl/.357mag CCW. 12 rounds of maybe or 5 rounds of absolutely.
You're a genius. Next time 9mm Guy asks "What if you're surrounded, hmmm?", show him both pieces.
This was one of your best comparisons and as fair as could be . Thank you .
Great video! I appreciate it. Maybe 1st time i've heard trans-sonic principles mentioned in a pistol accuracy scenario, Love It! I used to make good supersonic groups at 1000 yards with 175 grain Sierra Match King 308.
Thank you.
Really like the way you do things. Damn tack driver accurate and very informative. Please keep up the good work.
.38 is a personal favorite of mine, anyone who thinks it a weak round is misinformed, period.
I like my little 38. Ruger lcr. It conceals nice, I can hit my target, it smacks targets pretty hard. The recoil isn't crazy.
daymon mac .......I've reloaded and shoot thousands of .38 for decades. It's a weak round.
We may disagree, but I'm not misinformed.
@@kellywalker8407 ask Oswald if it's a weak round, one shot to the abdomen and it ripped through 3 to 4 vital organs. A 22lr round is responsible for more firearms death than any other round domestically if I'm not mistaken. It's about the shot placement. If you have the misfortune of being involved in a self defense situation with a firearm, statistically they are up close and personal where I believe the .38 is it's most lethal.
@@kellywalker8407 it's only "weak" relative to much bigger rounds.
A 38 is more than enough for self defense. In a fire fight, either will do the same thing. A 38 isn't any worse practically speaking. The differences are so minimal that it doesn't matter. A shot the chest with either and you're down.
@@scottym9778 yeah, a .38 is more than enough for self defense. Won't notice much difference practically speaking. Either will do.
Love the show dude! Thanks for making these vids. Great info and very entertaining.
Dude with watching about 3 years worth of your “pro 38spl” videos I finally broke down and bought a S&W pro series 642, I’m not the greatest shot with jframe snubbies but it will go in my “winter coat pocket carry rotation” and occasional summer carry. I have full confidence in the effectiveness of 38spl plus P in close self defense encounters. Thanx for the data/testing that helped confirm my suspicions. 👍🏻
Thanks for another honest and educating video. I would never have guessed the results. In ( my opinion ) the 32 special kicked as# over the 9. Thanks for ya hard work on these videos. And have a fantastic night.
Thank you.
Great job Sam. You're quite a shot in shooting a revolver in double action mode out to 75 yards!
Good shooting, especially from the 38 Special. I'm sure that made your day somewhat special. Take Care!
Nice double action revolver, particularly that snub nose at 25 yards. Thanks for the informative review.
For that 75 yd comparison, it looked to me like the 686's grouping was generally tighter than your 9mm's, and that was double action. I suspect the 686's groups would have been tighter if shot single action and that might have been a more even comparison to the 9mm for the purpose of testing the super sonic>>subsonic vs subsonic only flight paths.
As always, great tests and videos that continue to prove that revolvers continue to be relevant, effective, and fun! Nice work!
The main problem with the 38 from back in the day was that for decades the main loading was a 158 grain lead round nose. Once bullets of different construction and profiles came along, the 38 became a lot more effective.
Great edits. You put a lot of time Into creating this.
Enjoyed video. Good job on the comparison's.
I thought 18+ mind was long when the video appeared, but you did a really good job. Great comparison.
Great test Sam proves the point to be a shooter of many calibers. Because of you I became more interested in .38 spl. I recently picked 2 more revolvers - a Taurus Model 82 - 4in barrel, and a Taurus Model 66 - .357 magnum in 6 in barrel. 🎩☯️♠️
Thank you.
Outstanding comparison. Liked and subbed!
Well done sir!
Thank you
thank you fir another great demonstration.
First time viewing your channel. Very well done imo. Subscribed 👍🏻
Thank you.
Thank you for this video. Im a 9mm guy but do have .357/.38. I learned a lot from this.. Again, Thank you.
Great Video! You "Trap" your thumbs in your grip like I do. That is an old timers Revolver grip!!! Works for me!!
Really interesting data. Gives info to consider for us to make decisions. Surprised with short barrel 9 pass through shots.
It's basically just a spear piercing material. 9mm has a slender nose for feeding.
Interesting experiment at 75 yards. As I recall the military specification for the 9mm 124gr FMJ load only specified performance out to 55 yards. I may be mistaken on the ammo details but there was no mistaking your shooting skills. Nice job.
38 special has put a whole lot of ppl underground pretty damn quick my dad always tells me about how in his country Honduras that was always a available round and how alot of ppl he knew and some he didn't got shot with it and fell over pretty quick and were more than likely lead round nose and in Colombia my mom's country she always told me that was their preferred round Pablo Escobar's men stayed with their 38 specials and how that caliber was responsible for hundreds or even thousands i think of deaths in a year that ain't no shitty round I promise u that
Carry an M442 for a backup to my .40 for work.
My days off the 442 still makes it out the door with me.
Ive faith in a .38 spl. with the proper slug. Not my go to war choice, but for warm weather carry its adequate.
Impressive shooting!!
I don't know what the % of Hollow Point Expansion failures in real world Citizen Scientist Ballistic Labs is but I do think it is significant. Significant enough that we have no certainty what will happen after the bang. It makes you wonder what results manufactures get when they test.
You have opened a lot of eyes to the 32 Caliber family. The 38 Caliber family was your "first" love. But you discovered something that you cannot unsee.
Thanks for sharing your information.
I totally agree with your conclusion about inconsistent expansion and JHP failures (especially with shorter barrels). That's why I've moved my 9mm and 380's to the Underwood Xtreme Defenders, which don't expend, but penetrate deeply (generally without much if any over-penetration--not like the Xtreme Penetrators, which go deeper), and a wound track that puts fully expanded JHPs to shame because of their cavitation through tissue.
Too bad there is no real life data on the Lehigh rounds. They look good in gel though
Paul Herrel talks about hollow points and not expanding pretty consistently on his channel, specifically when you start getting sub-sonic speeds from a gun. He says pretty much at sub-sonics you don't get expansion, this is true from .22 and up. Now hitting something hard, fiber board or bone, often can cause expansion, but usually it is the speed of the bullet through a hydro-static medium that determines expansion. Personally, I saw better results from the 9mm in this tests, but hey, host likes wheels, so that is what he says wins. Something to consider for those who shoot wheel guns, body armor, it is getting cheap and more common so you have to expect more bad guys to use it, thus having 2 enemies with kevlar and only 5-6 rounds at hand and the first two to three shots are stopped by armor, isn't a good place to be in. Will this ever happen....well, there was a training video by youtube Gun Talk Media that had one attacker with body armor and defender with wheel gun.....it was an interesting watch. Yes, a super well trained person can reload with a speed loader fast...personally, I would just rather have 9-17 rounds in the first place. Is the 38special bad...no, just not as good of a choice as a 9mm semi-auto, and for those who say, well I place my shots better because I am limited....well, you should ALWAYS place them better, because you are responsible for EVERY bullet fired, and a miss means innocents can be hurt.
Today the 38 special covers a gamut of power ranges from 380 to low end 357. From 158 rnl to the +P+ Treasury load. I'm glad they went and developed the hotter loads bc thats what brought the 38 back to life
Yeah, and in a .357 Magnum revolver you legitimately have to include the .38 Special as part of the same cartridge, seeing as it's 100% compatible in a .357 revolver, not like a .40 in a 10mm or something lol...unless it's a 10mm revolver lol
Yes a 357 is a longer 38. I'm thinking that the 357 is too much in guns like the 340 and j frame weight snubs. You do get more from the 357 over the 38 but at a cost of controllability. Follow up shots should be considered in picking a particular caliber and load
38 Special is underrated just showed here.
You think it's underrated go to the store and try to buy some ammo it's kind of hard to find.
Also hard to find as more emphasis is being placed on .9mm, .556, and .223.
I carried the model 10 as a police service weapon in the 80s and it was always a great reliable weapon. I now carry the 605 with .357 loads and for me I trust it more than a 9mm. Good video. Revolvers still have their place. I am no Fudd. I just like reliability and accuracy over just spraying rounds.
Hickock has some excellent example of bullet travel on his channel tho very little fps or fpe, due his understanding of gunpowder manufacture, but on a sunny day with the light filtering thru the trees. You can actually see bullet drop before strike as it crosses the open illuminated spaces from tree shadow to target strike.
Thanks, always good videos. Take care.
Thank you. Take care.
I am old school and have faith in the 38 special. I have recently purchased a Taurus Defender with the 3” barrel to alternate with my 605 Taurus. One more round and one more inch of barrel. Thanks again for the well made videos you make
Sounds like a decent gun, and honestly about perfect as most guys will get a .357 Magnum, then carry .38 Special while having a gun heavier than it needs to be for perfect performance in recoil and power, which a good .38+P has.
I've considered an 856 in a 3" for quite some time. Never bought one yet.
I carry the 856 defender as well, accurate enough for me and concealable.
I think the extra inch of barrel helps the 38 special. After years of looking, I found a Model 36 3 inch with a Heavy barrel; this is my wife's gun now. 45 ACP for bedroom defense; 9mm or hot 380 for personal carry.
3" is a great compromise length for 38/357. It's shorter but not too short. An extra inch at these short lengths does affect velocity appreciably more than an inch at longer lengths, as the velocity curve falls off steeply at the shorter lengths heading short of even 2".
Carry a 442 with wad cutters. Love the concealability.
Interesting video sure could tell the difference in the calibers at 75. Be safe and GOD BLESS
I like the .38 Special a lot. My Paps lets me shoot his every once in a while. I still rather carry 147 Gr HST traveling at a average of 1000 fps. 16 rounds one in the chamber out of my glock 19 gen 5. Great video.
When I worked in law enforcement in the 1980s I carry the Smith of Wesson model 10 served me quite well I still carried today with my 40 caliber custom Glock. When dealing with a bad person any gun will do but remember it comes down to your skill set when you have to face down your enemy keep that in mind train hard and when the fight
The .38 is special. But it is harder to find and costs more than the 9mm these days. I still prefer the ,38 and the .327 as I love revolvers.
.327 for me as well. Factory Federal American Eagle 100gr SPs average 1600fps out of my 4 5/8" Ruger Single Seven. 2254fps in a 20" Marlin 1894CB. Carries like a .22, choots like a .38, hits like a .357. Finally, The Ideal Trail gun.
I think you should ask Lee Harvey Oswald.He took a .38 bullet from a snub nosed revolver to the stomach and didn't survive it. I dispatched deer and elk with it and none required a second shot to the head.I used 130 grain fmj on one mule deer from about 15 ft and the bullet was under the skin on the far side of the head.Heavier bullets were all pass through. That gun is a Ruger sp101 .357 mag with a 2 inch barrel but dispatching animals who are down but not dead doesn't require that much power.
Excellent comparison. I grew up with the .38 and know that it is very capable, the 9mm is nice because of multiple shots capacity. Both are powerful enough for self defense. Even a .22 is good, but you would probably need several rounds in some cases...
I thought it was a reasonably informative test. Interesting.
Nice comparison video. When I was growing up in the 80’s the Got dot was the ammo you read about in all the gun magazines. Gold dot and Federal Hydra shock were the name brands I remember most, it seems apparent that the Gold dot ammo still preforms well. I was disappointed to see minimal expansion though. It did show tissue damage in the wound tracts, but consistent expansion is important to me, and those duplicate pass throughs show strong evidence where not to use it. Thanks for your efforts.
Thank you. I knew nothing about ammo until the 2,000's lol
I remember cops going on and on about how badass Golden Sabers were. They were carrying .38 Special revolvers then. circa 1979, it would have been.
@@traumajock Yeah Golden Saber was a big name back then too.
As long as people are still carrying six shot 9mm and 380 pistols with 3" barrels, they can hardly throw shade at 38sp. If those are still considered powerful enough to be worth carrying for their size and weight advantage, then the humble 38sp wheelgun still has a place. Besides, even if suddenly no one wanted to carry a dedicated 38 Special pistol anymore, 38 Special will never go away as long as 357 Magnum remains popular. It's too useful as a training aid and low-impact plinker.
I carry a 3" smith model 60 pro series occasionally loaded with 125 gold dots but my normal edc is a glock 19 with 124 +p gold dots. They have one of the best street credentials of any bullet built over 30 years. Most of my local LE carry them and they seem to get the job done well according to a few LEOs I shoot with.
I have tested them, and generally most 124+P's are good if they are going around 1,200 FPS. I have though, become convinced that the 124+P HST is better. I just see a more consistent expansion, all while having sharper and sturdier expanded petals. Just an opinion/common sense sort of thing when I see what seems to be more damage with HST.
38 special suffers from the same effects today as the 45 colt: it's loaded to the bottom of its potential in many cases. 9mm is usually loaded stout enough in standard format in most brands, without buying the dubious +p designation which may net zero additional performance, depending on the brand. Regardless of actual velocity, the most important thing is the bullet construction because that's what accomplishes terminal ballistic action. The hottest 9mm with a lousy bullet has nothing to boast about. A 38 special bunny fart load with a very good bullet is still something to talk about. It's just a larger case with more potential for powder and heavier bullets, with none of the bullet nose particulars being an issue unlike auto loaders.
The 45 colt and the 38 special come out of the black powder days. That's over a 100 years with tons of guns chambered for those rounds. A lot of them are weak and worn, the ammo makers are just trying to stay out of trouble with those soft loads
@@mikey3800 Yes I understand. Funny how legal liability issues demands manufacturers produce low pressure loads in these cartridges which will work in old guns, which are probably an extremely low percentage of all firearms in common use.
@@exothermal.sprocket Part of the problem is a lot of gun owners don't look very deeply into this subject matter. Someone inherits a Victory smith and wesson and they are not aware how one fell onto a ships deck and shot a sailor. They don't know the design changes made in a smiths lockwork to increase the level of safety. I tell the kids that are getting into the shooting sports that they have to live it...its a level that most won't want devote themselves to
@@mikey3800 There's only so much manufacturers can cover themselves with, and out of all the manufactured products consumers can buy, firearms are so ridiculously and heavily regulated. Honestly there needs to be far less regulations on firearms, especially when it comes to Second Amendment restrictions which most of them are.
The issue is a lack of respect for mortality, the lack of risk aptitude, and the lack of attention span. I want anyone to be able to own firearms, who isn't a criminal according to Constitutional law. I don't want forced or mandated training either. All of that stuff is a barrier to entry. What needs to happen is people have to develop the ability to hold attention and prioritize things that actually matter in their daily lives. Maybe then dangerous incidents would come down and the shooting sports would be enjoyed by more people.
Both grandpas were police chiefs and both carried the police chief special 38. Other relatives were officers and detectives. They all carried S&W 38s. They had no problem killing bad guys with them using the old school FMJ's.
Interesting. This is the first time i have ever seen a Gold Dot fail to expand at any normal velocity. The 38 did well. I have a slight preference for the 135 gr short barrel load in 38+p. In 9mm, the 124 gr +p GD seems to be the way to go. NYPD and several other large agencies have had very good results with it. Good test as always
Thanks. Yeah, Gold Dot or HST 124 gr seem to be where it's at. Interesting thing though, if I recall right the 124+P HST while being less powerful than the same variant of Gold Dot in a full size gun, well the HST is more powerful than the Gold Dot in a shorter barrel. Overall, I have had only one failure to expand with any HST round, and probably 4-5 variants of Gold Dot that failed to expand. That being said this doesn't say much as HST is only in a few proven calibers as where Gold Dot is in everything including standard pressure .38 Special and .22 Mag.
I've got a 22lr with a 5inch barrel, 9mm with a 4 inch barrel and 38 special with a 2inch barrel. The 38 special is a power house for sure, I would definitely trust my life to the 38 special. 38 special is one bad ass round.
The 38 special is a fine round that suffers from a misunderstanding from many years ago. The 158 grain lead round nose became a standard because it was incredibly cheap to produce. That rounds failings left a taint on the 38 special that still haunts it. The 9mm with ball ammo performs similarly awful.
Yeah, I see that a lot. Guys laughing at "700 FPS", not realizing that many 125+P's exceed 1,000 FPS and pack about the same punch as many 9mm rounds in 3" barrels.
Good point. Misunderstandings seem to drive a lot of thinking in the firearms industry.
A case in point is when folks suggest that Glocks are superior guns because they have been widely adopted by LEAs. That is a myth.
Glocks made it into standard issue for two primary reasons. First, they were cheaper to make and therefore much cheaper to buy, which helped LEAs manage their limited budgets. Second, the high round capacity of the Glock improved the chance of a LEO getting a round on target as the chances of landing 1 of 18 were better than landing 1 of 6 for revolvers or say 1 in 7or 8 for 1911s. This combination made Glocks a decent selection for LEAs to adopt, but it did not make the Glock a superior firearm. At best, it shows that perhaps Glocks are an optimal firearm for LEAs where low cost, interchangability, and high capacity help check a lot of boxes.
@@Jeff92346 I agree with you on all of the above. The Glocks are okay for what they are, but I don't think they deserve their reputation. Like you said, logistics of price drives their popularity more than their quality. Beyond that they do not feel good in my hands. I want everyone to shoot what they like, but I am not a Glock guy.
@@davidjones-vx9ju A quick internet search will show you that you are the only one who believes that.
@@davidjones-vx9ju I have reloaded for over 40 years and am very familiar with ball powders, but they have nothing to do with the term ball ammo. Look it up. It's easy.
Than you. My wife and I are in the market for pistols here in SoCal if and when they become available. For my bedstand it will be a .357 4 or 5", my wife wants a semi auto pistol...the best of both worlds.
I carry my .38 Special Ruger LCRx with the 3 inch barrel everywhere I go. I never feel out gunned since the odds of using it within 3 feet are 90+% mean that it will be deadly enuf to save your life. That New York Cop who started messing around with bullet shape and make up to make a more effective bullet was the first to realize that ammo used in the 38 Special was grossly inferior. Modern 38 ammo will do the job as all the wonderfull improvements done to the 9mm has also been done to all other calibers. And a revolver hardly ever jams.
Interesting results .
I really don't expect much or any expansion from a 38 in a snub. I'd rather use a heaver round for penetration.
so it comes down to which one do you want to carry and which one works every time. (in the winter I carry a S&W mdl. 15. summer is a pair of j-frames.)
I like 38 best & you Sam appear to be more accurate with 38 .Thanks again Sam.
My preference of handgun is S&W model 67 38+p carried it for over 10 years,top revolver.
I think that you may try holstering after a couple of shots, shake it off, think happy thoughts, then engage again. This would help at distance.
I was in a class that had a challenge phase, where we had to ring steel, on a medium silhouette, at increments from 25 yards out to 116 yards. Any misses prevented you from advancing to the next distance.
It was fun, but we would start with 20 or so at 25, and usually 2 or 3 at the 116.
Haven’t watched this yet but you can blast a hole through a wall in a residential dwelling and hurt someone on the other side even with TARGET loads.
.38 Special is plenty effective that’s why it was used by police agencies and the military for 70 years.
A .32 is effective for killing. The point is a 9mm is more effective and in most duty weapons you have 15 or 17 shots. I love my little j frame but let's be real.
@@320jasont it's really not practically speaking. Most of the time, a lethal shot is the same with either. A non lethal shot is the same with either.
I also think having a round that's far less likely to pass through someone, and even slightly less likely to kill even by a tiny bit, is better for law enforcement purposes. If you can drop a guy without killing them, that's a good thing. Same with making sure no one else around gets hit.
I think public safety is always more important than a police officers ability to be instantly lethal. There's less kick recoil too which leaves less margin for error. Making it safer for bystanders.
I think they've made a mistake switching.
I'm still carrying Remington 125 grain +p SJHP's when I carry my 856 UL. In my Ruger Security Six (four inch barrel) I carry those or the 357 loading of it, or 125 grain Critical Duty. There's a shop where I know there are some of those .38 Gold Dots. He wants $69 for a box of 50. I can get 100 round boxes of the SJHPs for less.
The SJHP are pretty decent, and what's good about them in the expansion happens even if it's not at expansion threshold, simply because the nose is soft and thin walled from being hollow, so the dreaded clogged HP really doesn't happen. Really more advanced than new ammo lol, only downside is the nose breaks easily on hard barriers, but that's not a problem most people need a solution for.
The 38 is still a good round. It has manageable recoil for most people, it is widely available, and its a good target caliber also. I think one of the reasons a lot of folks moved to 9mm is because they wanted a semi-auto pistol. Either of those are good choices for self defense.
Great video
Thank you.
I used to think supersonic was not as precise as subsonic, but I've changed my mind on that.
Ya,and thats why I have been acquiring hst.Its expensive but it seems to have less issues golddots or critical defense.Indeed the only brands I carry are Hst+p,hyroshok deep,or critcal duty +p.
I like HST, but in .38 Special the HST has a lot to be desired. It's more or less a .380 in a .38 Special case. I prefer something like 129+P Hydrashok.
At present your testing are the best on UA-cam.Keep up the goodwork and know that your channel helped me to find self defense ammunition I trust.
All 9X19 Speer Gold Dots are known to slightly over penetrate on average beyond the 18" established maximum but their 38 Special ammunition falls within defense specifications . Federal HST is the established standard for 9X19 defensive ammunition and all of their bullets fall within the desired penetration (124gr and 147gr +P or non +P).
I know a lot of cops from back in the 1970s and 80s, and they swore by their .38 revolvers, some loaded with ordinary 158 grain rounds. They enforced the law quite well with those. No BS from me.
Liking and posting for that catchy Al Gore Rhythm! Staying for the great, intelligent commentary!
Don't think I want to be in front of one of those weak, inaccurate .38spl snubbies.
That 9mm that passed the ballistic gel is 1 in 1,000 good video! I am 38 spl lovers
Thanks, but I wouldn't call it one in a thousand lol, as both went through. Makes sense though, just too slow in a short barrel for that particular bullet shape.
My personal view on defensive ammo is that you want reliable expansion, bigger is better, and a minimum penetration on an expanded hollow point of around 12” in the denim/gel test. Beyond that I don’t really care about the penetration as long as the bullet expands pretty much every time.
I’ve noticed in various ballistic tests that a lot of JHPs don’t expand reliably out of a short barrel because the impact velocity is too low. That’s why I favor 115gr for 3” 9mm and 110gr for 2” .38spl +p. The one exception I’ve seen is HST. The 124gr seems to do well in 3” 9mm and the 130gr does amazing in a 2” .38sp.
Niiice shooting at 75 yds !
Good review
With modern self-defense bullets the .38 Special can be very effective at typical ranges. The big problem with the round was the 158 grain round nose lead bullet that was a notorious underperformer.
Pretty much confirms the Federal HST bullet has surpassed the Gold Dots.. but they don't make the HST for all calibers. What is the best EDC round for the Ruger LRC in 327 mag? Is it still the Federal Hydra Shok low Recoil? I can't find it anywhere....and it probably won't be in stock for years...
Yeah I never understood why not only HST, but also Federal Punch is not made in even .357 Magnum. For .327 I feel like the Buffalo Bore "Heavy" 100 gr XTP is a good load, also stuff like Double Tap all copper HP's are good too, but that Buffalo Bore round is nearly always in stock on their website if you can order ammo online.
👍😁 that was some good shooten there 👍
sorry if this has been asked and answered before. I use pork ribs in my ballistic tests. It's gotten a lot more expensive (thanks creepy Joe) and I was wondering If you could explain why you use MDF and why you choose the 1/4". thank you
another good video eather of the 4 weapons will get you home if you shoot good and don’t panic under pressure. I would like to have seen the expansion mesurments and retrieved bullet weights to figure out energy power .but I guess some times iam to much of a profection freak. the one or ones receiving the bullets don’t care about that. nana and papa aka the hunter wishing you well.
Cool video
Nothing beats a 686 in my book. For easy, accurate shooting. I have a 6 inch and used to love shooting clay targets set up on a sandbank at 103 yards. Got so I was hitting them 3-4 out of 6 shots, offhand. With slow 38s. Just set the rear sight as high as it would go, and they fell right in at that distance. Great fun. Can't come close to that with any auto-loader I have ever shot.
I got a 686 6inch also accurate gun if I only had one it be the 686. My favorite and best looking gun.
If you watch other videos you get different results! The 38 special snuby vary rarely gets a hollow point to expand! So much so that they recommend wadcutters. I was going to buy a snuby 38. I watched test to see what ammunition to get. None of the ammunition available performed from a snuby.The Knox ballistics gel at the exact temperature yields different results from clear gel. I just wanted it to perform sadly the snuby didn’t do well with a wide range of ammunition.
At the time of the .38 Special’s introduction, “special “ ment just that!
The same as the later adopted term “ magnum” ment. Its competitors were the likes of .38 Long Colt @ 600fps, compared to the .38 Special Hi-Speed @ 1150fps with a 158 gr bullet( also called the .38-44) for a short time it was the most powerful production handgun.
And they really didn’t do much to the Special case except lenthen it 1/10th inch so it wouldn’t fit in a revolver that wasn’t made with .357 Mag in mind. Magnum
Powder charges fit in an unlenthened special case just fine. So special was more limited by strenth of the revolver you placed it in, than by the cartridge case itself.
156 gr+p lead semi wadcutter hp proven round.
All manufacturers have different hardnesses of lead. Some open more than others for all rounds. Miss my Remington cartridges.
Same with the 125gr semi jacketed hp .357 mag. Golden sabers.
hollow points out of a derringer are deadly even at 50 yards, but when using a derringer, 7 yards would be max distance for good shot placement.
The thing I find funny is people talking about 38spl and 380acp being weak and acting as if it's not going to ruin your day to get shot by them.
I can't say if it was your mind-set when shooting, but (misses aside) you had better grouping (IMO) with the revolver at 75 yds.
All-in-all, very respectable accuracy from a 4" revolver, given the range. 👍
I aimed center mass, was being fair as everyone knows I absolutely love this 5" M&P pistol, but it's like I had two groups. I aimed center mass with both guns and tried my best.
Concerning revolvers and multiple attackers... Why is it that no one seems to understand that the number of rounds in your gun is not gonna help you much when facing several people?
TIME is the one thing you'll need the most in those scenarios, and is the one thing you'll have the least of.
Think about it: you're faced with, say, 5 people. How long to put one shot on each one?
Meanwhile, all of them may be firing on you AT THE SAME TIME!
So even if you get one of them, and one of the others misses you... you've still got 3 holes in you before you can deal with all of your attackers.
So, no matter how you're armed, your best bet is getting the hell away from 'em, and using cover and covering fire, if possible, to get gone and stay alive.
Because the only place you're likely to survive a shoot-out against more than one person is in a video game.
P.S. A group of people that all cut and run if you manage to fire the first shot does not count here... anymore than what gun that first shot comes out of does.
Yeah, and I also have to be realistic in basic chance. Like, in 100 square miles around me, not only do I never hear of a shooting except once every 5 years, but I have never ever ever heard of anyone shooting multiple people in self defense. Evasive cover, or driving is more valuable than even one bullet!
Sure, you may not get them all, but man! What an exciting way to go out!!
The piece I carried most was a S&W 442 hammerless.
I carry this. I like the black
I have the 642. Both are terrific guns. SO easy to carry and very reliable. Some people may complain "5 rounds isn't enough". Well it is for about 99% of all self defense encounters. And if you want more, then carry a speed loader. That's what I do. And I don't feel under gunned or underpowered at all.
The standard 9mm is more powerful than the .38 Spl +P. But the real advantage of it over the .38, is magazine capacity. The .38 is a very good defensive round, for people who prefer a revolver for EDC.