Why are the Dutch so direct?
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- Опубліковано 18 кві 2024
- The Dutch are one of the most direct people in the world. And Dutch directness is one of the biggest culture shocks for foreigners-some may even perceive it as rude.
But what is Dutch directness? And where does it come from?
Let’s hear from foreigners-and Dutch people. And there's actually science and history to explain why the Dutch are so direct. Let’s find out!
⏰ CHAPTERS:
00:00 Intro
01:05 Culture shock of Dutch directness!
01:55 The science of Dutch directness (Culture Map)
03:19 "Peach & coconut" cultures
04:50 What do Dutchies think of Dutch directness?
05:48 Pros & cons of Dutch directness
07:05 Where does Dutch directness come from?
08:46 What have I learned?
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😁 WHO AM I?
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#dutchdirectness #cultureshocks #lifeinthenetherlands
I think a Dutch person would just say: no wednesday is not possible. He would not even thank you for asking. As a Dutch person, too much polite words make me uncomfortable. When someone is obviously making efforts to hide the true message in order to protect my feelings, I start to suspect that his true message is much more hurtful than it seems because apparently he thinks I can not bear the truth. There is nothing hurtful in my unavailability on wednesday so why be indirect about it?
Exactly, I would just say something like: "No I can't do wednesday, maybe friday? Or next week tuesday I'm also still free."
Exactly we follow up with a solution to make it clear that we really would like to go. Just not that day.
Also if you really don’t want to do something you say it. So if someone invites you to go to a soccer game, and you hate soccer, you usually don’t say that you’re busy and maybe some other time, but you might say: no i don’t like soccer but how about we go bowling sometime.
We think it is very practical to be clear and honest, and it prevents a lot of misunderstandings.
@@Peacefrogg jup a perfectly good response for the dutch would be "no i do not like the sport" (i even notice how dificult it is to translate that to english in writhng). and say somthing like: "we could plan somthing else for another time"
Ha yes, I was thinking the same. I myself would just say: "Ik kan niet woensdag." (I can't on wednesday). I would see no reason to even say sorry.
Being Dutch, I would just like to add that there are also people in the NL that are just plain rude. So the trick is learning to recognise when people are just being honest/direct with you or when there's an asswipe just being rude to you. 😅
But how? Unless someone goes out of their way to help you (rarely happens), "Dat kan niet" is just the universal conversation killer.
I mean, who cares. The assholes can stay rude, no big loss there!
Thanks for sharing David. There will always be rude people-we can ignore them =)
@@Ikbeneengeit I'd say that if you ask why and they don't come with a proper explanation, you'll know they're likely just being rude.
@@Ikbeneengeit If someone rarely goes out of their way to help you, and just says: it is not possible, without context or follow up...I don't know what your routine is or where you are living. As a Dutchy I find people very friendly and they surprise me everyday. So let's say the "rarely happens" is very anecdotal.
I don't see " dat kan niet " as rude in itself and try to piece together from context/subtext/body language if they are being rude.
Also if you are bothered so much by it that the conversation is "killed" , while the other person doesn't see the harm or follows their cultural norm then in a way you also killed the conversation.
As a Dutch person working for an American company, I really had to get used to hearing 'Great question!', EVERY TIME a question was asked. When everything is 'awesome', 'great' or 'the best it's ever been!', those words lose meaning and I never know when you truly appreciate my feedback, or this or that is really going well.
By now I realize 'Great question!' just means 'I am glad you are interested enough in what I said to ask a question and I want to encourage you to ask more questions in the future'.
"Amazing comment." Haha but interesting to hear how that is perceived (I realize that I still do that quite often).
I agree. I strive to only use words like ‘fantastic’ when I truly think that something is fantastic so that my words actually carry weight in the eyes of people that know that I function this way.
I had a workshop in Turkey last month, from a company coming from USA. The dude kept saying “awesome question” whenever we asked anything. It was a bit annoying to me. Lived 10 years in Nederland and i must say that i never felt directness being rude. It is jusg as it is, direct, straight to the point
@@hidavidwen haha nobody seemed to get the joke. I think it was funny
Yeah, I would think if someone said: "great question" That we're about to do some google searches or something
As someone who is half Japanese half Dutch, I honestly think directness as shown by the Dutch is the healthiest way to go about things. Overall, I think it's healthier for the mental and emotional in the long run.
True! I’ve come to appreciate that. Thanks for sharing
Maybe this partly explains the relative happiness of the Dutch. I don't know if the mental health of the Dutch is relatively good though
@@apoptosisduellinks109 Mine sure isn't but then again i'm not everyone so yeah.
That's why the Dutch are among the happiest people on the planet.
I agree🔥
For a Dutch person, to not to be indirect means to be insincere and possibly even considered rude. Why waste each other's time or giving false hope? Just be direct and we know how to move forward.
It isn't rude and you don't have to feel offended. You immediately know where everyone stands, and you can still convince others... and they may even tell you how!
I believe you used a double negative wrongly: ' to be indirect or 'to not be direct' is what you mean (i think).
Thanks for sharing, interesting to hear!
Yup, i agree. Reminds me of apologists who spend 10 minutes to answer a yes/no question (and hiding the fact they don't want or can't answer)
As another Dutch person, I can't completely agree with your statement.
The Dutch are quite often rude. We lack certain social skills because we're not the most empathic people.
100% some people are so good at turning around a point that you dont even know what they are saying anymore. I dont see the purpose of being indirect, it can be really confusing and as you say it seems a waste of energy and time (yes i'm Dutch xD)
There's a difference between being direct as in communicating with clear intend vs having total disregard to someones feelings. This does not mean we are inconsiderate. Most Dutch people will know when to be honest and when to be polite and act interested. There's a time and place for everything.
Quite. I may add: Dutch people from several communities will express their irritation with you by making jokes meant to make you think. - Actually, I often intend my jokes to make people think, just not necessarily about their behavior.
Some people have their feelings hurt if they get criticised on something that is simply the truth. It's their problem, dutch people can't change the truth and won't say sorry for it. However we very often say things with some tact if the truth is very confronting...
Facts don't care about feelings fyi
Yeah, people always say it is 'being direct'. No, it is just being to-the-point/cutting the chase.
@@thinkforyourself4046 While that is true, there's also a huge difference between being direct and just plain rude. As a Dutchie myself one thing I noticed a lot of fellow dutchmen do, especially to foreigners, is say this essay is not good, are you stupid? The part where they say someone's work isn't good is being direct, calling someone stupid is just rude, same goes when expats try to speak Dutch, I hear a lot of people, specially in stores, say "your Dutch is not good, (then proceed to insult them)"... Another example of someone using the Dutch directness as an excuse to be rude is that clip of Sven Kramer, calling the interviewer stupid is completely uncalled for and not an example of directness...
As another Dutch person has already pointed out, some of us really *are* actually rude and the cultural directness might make that hard to pinpoint.
One red flag is when a Dutch person takes this weird pride in their own "directness". Another one is when one's behavior is often excused as "just their typical directness" by either their peers or themselves.
In both these cases, odds are it's an actual toxic person who uses this "typical Dutch directness" as a free way ticket to bully others.
Yeah there's a lot of nuance to it. In my experience it's often a person being toxic more than anything else but that's also not everyone. Again there's a lot of nuance that you can only pick up on if you've lived here for a long time.
Bravo 🥁😍
Yes, exactly so. Directness is to be valued when it comes to things like creating realistic expectations for others. But there's often a certain amount of unmasked superiority surrounding this idea of directness, whilst it can also simply be viewed as a lack of diplomacy and empathy.
Yes this! Also worth mentioning is that people in Amsterdam and surrounding areas tend to be _very_ direct even for Dutch standards.
That is not true, feelings ad communications often get mixed together, rudeness is when one is truly calling names or is being rude, We Dutch say what we think and mean what we say, leave emotion out of it when it is about actual communication and trying to convey important and practical information, emotions is what make people think it's rude, but it's not personal, it is simpel information exchange . Feelings and emotions is another matter , and that is where people tend to call it rude, cause it hurts their feelings to be given direct information.I personally prefer directness and authenticity over empty fill in words to soothes someone's feelings any day. that is the difference
As an autistic Dutch person, I am so very glad that my culture is more inclined towards just getting to the damn point, it saves so much time and gives me exactly the feedback I need from the interaction.
Exactly❤
Same! I've autism to and the culture makes my directness much less of a big deal. And I can actually understand what they mean without second guessing
For me as Dutchy the directness and honesty is a way of showing respect for another person. If I do not respect a person, I do not need to be honest.
Thanks Rob. Directness = respect. I respect that!
yeah agreed. if i see a fellow colleague mess up i try to immediatly adress it.
instead of keeping silent and him making even more mistakes.
Zo nuchter als een Nederlander 👍🏻
True, i love the directness of our people❤
I'd even say that CEOs and professors in the Netherlands have even more respect for employees/students that argue with them in a direct and (for Dutch standards) respectful way, as they prove to be creative and critical thinkers.
Thanks Maarten-yeah I've learned that "arguing" back constructively can actually be a good thing. Well, it's actually what makes "high performing teams" (Patrick Lencioni's "5 Dysfunctions of a Team")
Maybe at universities professors do like that.....until the student proves he is much better thinking and arguing than that professor . Only a few professors do really appreciate that....
At lower level education (basic school (grammary) up to highschool) only a very few teachers will accept those arguing kids....especially when they are telling the reacher is wrong. (I remember one teacher, mathematics, who told us when someone pointed at a mistake/wrong answer that he was testing if we were awake in the classroom....he also was one of my most appreciated teachers because the humor in accepting those things.)
But also in the Netherlands you are not allowed to tell other people how very good you really are (in work/learning/sport ) Even difficult when you're a supertalent. That is much easier in the USA and more apreciated.
Yup, I always told my boss if what they wanted was a bad idea and why it was a bad idea. It was almost always appreciated as it saved time and/or money. Very few times that I was told to do it anyway.
Strictly depends on where you are. I was in two faculties at the time while studying. First faculty you ask if it's okay to discuss something later and you get "Appointment? Just walk in when it suits you, I'll tell you if I've got time", then I walk into the Faculty of Law to ask something and I'm stared at like "You're a student. TF are you doing here, in my office, without a prior appointment?"
@@fredpuntdroad8701 Seems to me it depends on the preference of the teacher not the location.
Honestly as a Duchie, if I ask someone if they’re available on Wednesday to hang out and they say “oh.. I would love to go, but I already have plans Wednesday… I really appreciate the offer tho” I would feel like they don’t want to hang out with me, or even dislike me. I would personally respond with something like “oh I can’t on Wednesday. Maybe we could go in the weekend?” And then gets responded with either: “Oh sure. I’m available on the weekend! Then it’s a plan!” If they can, and “Oh I can’t on the weekend.. (maybe the reason why) How about the Wednesday after that?” If they can’t on the weekend. And then it usually goes on until we made a plan or we’re just like “We’ll hang out some other time then.”
Maybe a reason I find that indirectness rude, is because if I actually don’t want to hang out with someone, I would find it too rude to straight up say I don’t want to, and come up with a excuse. So when you come up with an excuse instead of actually having and telling your reason for not being able to go (even if that reason is a headache or just being very tired) and suggesting something else, I feel like you just don’t want to hang out with me.
As a British person now living in the Netherlands for almost 3 years, this was something I really had to get used to. Now, I really love the directness - there's no trying to figure out where someone stands or any falseness, you know where you stand from the start (even if it catches you off guard sometimes!)
Thanks for sharing, me too!
The best I've seen the difference explained is a skit about offering biscuits to guests, where the British are like "Oh no I shouldn't" "are you sure?" "No really I'm fine" "I insist" "ok well I'll take one", and the Dutch guest is like "Oh yeah thanks!" to the disapproval of the other guests. And at the Dutch house the British guest when asked says "oh no I shouldn't" and the host is like "ok" and offers the next person, leaving the British guest wanting.
I always liked british sarcasm as a way to stay 'polite'. It can be just as brutal as our directness - not mincing words.
I suppose the Dutch way leaves less room for error. If someone feels offended, it can also be resolved without beating around the bush.
For foreigners that might be the hardest part. It's okay to be what you consider to be rude - but it does have limits.
Being polite still works, though.
It also depends on where you are. The southern provences tend to be 'warmer' than the others. I remember being confused by being greeted by all kinds of people in a big city there.
When I first went to the US, a supermarket cashier greeted me with "How are you?" I thought hey, what a nice woman, so I tried to have a conversation with her and asked her all sorts of questions. How she was doing, how long she's been working here if she lives nearby. She looked questioningly at me then? In the other store I was greeted in the same way, only then did I find out that it was a more polite greeting without content.😂
In the Netherlands, 'How are you' is usually said by friends or colleagues. And often they also want more information from me, either that I have not seen them for a long time or that I have been ill. If a Dutch cashier asks me how I am doing, I will say politely that I am fine, but I will think why is she asking me this, she does not know me, or am I doing something wrong, does she want to warn me for something?
Billi Connolly observed on stage (after having lived some years in California): What would you rather have: somebody saying "How are you? Have a great day!" and not meaning it, ot somebody saying "Get lost!" and mean it? - [I'm not sure about the words "get lost", but simething in that vein.]
@@chrislaarman7532eing Dutch I prefer neither. How about just a simply hi or good morning if that's all you really want to say? Why make a simple exchange between a cashier and a customer so convoluted? To be honest I don't like it when people ask me questions they don't want the answers to. Just don't waste my time with these shenanigans.
Funny thing, that "how are you" in stores and shops... One of my first times visiting the US, I was with a bunch of shipmates in a shopping mall, and I entered a record shop. I was greeted with what I back then did NOT know to be standard "Hi there, how are you?" and I answered with what I thought was appropriate "I am fine, how are you?" which in turn was answered with a blank look as if it was unexpected.
I was the only customer in the shop, and my shipmates apparently were still looking somewhere else, so I quickly peeked out the door to see where they went. When I turned around and went back into the record shop (making the door signal go "ding" again), The girl behind the counter AGAIN greeted me with a cheery "Hi there, how are you?". The exact tone, cdence, rhythm and intonation. Like a tape recording. It felt to me as if she had not even registered I was there 10 seconds earlier, as if she had not even registered that she said the same thing 10 seconds earlier, as if she did not even register that I was the same person that was there 10 seconds earlier, as if she did not even register that I was that strange guy that actually responded to her greeting in an unusual way (judging by the blank look I received the first time)...
It truly felt like I was talking to a robot that only registered that the door-bell rang, or a person disconnected from reality... I found it so offputting that I looked around for 2 minutes for good form, and left the shop as quickly as I could.
@@mmkgny Norms can change. Just because something exists doesn't make it nice or effective. Same with American car depcendcy. If you don't know any better its OK but it actually is a financial and physical prison for many people. Old walkable neighborhoods are in high demand in North America and thus only for the wealthy. The poor are kept poor in the vast suburbs which are effectively huge deserts when it comes to shops, schools and other facilities. Parents driving their kids everywhere just to go places. In ever bigger cars which are basically the size of tanks that actually kill more people than they keep safe. All of which are the accepted ways of doing things but they're not necessarily good for people.
This is not meant as critique per se. Just an illustration or how norms can derail until enough people get fed up with them and they change.
It's not a bad thing to sometimes think about why things are the way they are.
@@rigididiot 1) I do feel with you. :-)
2) I know the shop staff's automation, too. I have occasionally participated in collecting food for a food bank, outside supermarkets (in Amsterdam, so Dutch scale). One develops a routine of ever shorter questions. It was unavoidable to have people enter the shop a second time, like for rejoining their partner. But looking at a stream if people makes most faces familiar, so I did repeat my question. - I ultimately found a good excuse to use (with a smile): "I'm sorry. I don't store cookies."
As a Dutchy I think the Dutch ice skater was not direct, he was rude. There was no reason to call that woman ‘stupid’, direct would have been: ‘no I wont do that.’
Well you might have a point that it was a bit strong but i could have frased it excactly the same without the intend of being rude. The idiot part is more an indication of why would you even ask the answer is no so don't do it again. I do agree that its not the most polite form of saying things and you are better of not to do it to compleet strangers like he did.
he wasnt rude.. she was by wasting his time... why do you want to take an interview when you dont even know the guy?? So she is just using the guy for her benefit thats rude
@@kanehuijbers9528 And then that is typically Dutch… considering calling someone an idiot ‘direct’, instead of rude. There were tons of things he could have done that were just as direct but less unfriendly.
And actually: then he should have said thát to her, being direct is saying what you mean, so : ‘i think you’re wasting my time, i wont do that.’ Instead of beating around the bush and saying something else. Being direct doesnt necessarily mean you have to insult anyone.
Thanks Nina
As a person who lives in the Netherlands, I have noticed the Dutch are direct, but they are also easy to make friends with because of this. You know what they want and what they like and where they stand. This makes is easy to adapt yourself to them so that you both can have a good time which further deepens the friendship. I've also noticed that a Dutch person will visit my house or invite me to their house way earlier into the friendship than people of different cultures do.
Interesting, as my uncle (he and I are both Dutch) said that the Swiss like the Dutch because of this exact reason. He worked in Switzerland for a few years.
Exactly this. The coconut thing is bs.
* if you’re Dutch yourself and don’t have a noticable accent. If you’re a foreigner that’s not from Suriname with an accent, forget about being friends with Dutchies
Agreed, the coconut analogy didn't really match for this reason.
Well, when invited to your house, we might call your curtains "leuk, maar niet mijn smaak" (nice, but not my taste) which is a polite way to say we find them ugly.
I studied translation and have dutch directness (mom is dutch, father is french). My teachers would always say this influenced my translations and I had to "elaborate" more. I told them that "elaboration" was the cause of mistranslation and we headbutted a lot until graduation😅
I had never thought about translation. It certainly would be interesting. And obviously it's not your responsibility to add the extra "softness" which doesn't even exist in the first place.
@@raceregos The French like to make their writing "fancy", so they add unneccessary words in order to ressemble Latin languages (despite being from germanic descend, which is found in their oral language). Germanic languages have a tendancy to be a bit more blunt (except German, which adopted Latin grammar and put it's own spin to it😑). It's a matter of how much the sub-language (Latin) has influenced the main language.
@@User-oc1kl Nah, Dutch directness = "we don't take kindly to bullshit, so get to the point or else".
Otherwise pretty cultured and down to Earth. The Dutch Royal family are the most involved royals in Europe.
French comes from Latin, not germanic languages 😉
@@KiruNarch according to the great linguist Noah Green, French is the most latin of the germanic languages. The Franc are of Germanic descent, and french was only been standardized during/after WWI, because of the many germanic influenced dialects
In favor of Dutch directness: in our culture, truth and honesty are very important. Giving someone the impression that you think they cant handle the truth is no compliment. You would underestimate their strength. Therefor, indirect messages are perceived as (somewhat) insulting.
Thanks for sharing Wil!
i can relate to that....
You can be direct AND polite at the same time, it just requires some skills.
Once upon a time I visited a church in The Netherlands, on a Sunday I just sat in the crowd and everyone did their Sunday prayers until it was over, and then all of the sudden a Dutch woman asked me: ''Can I ask you something?'', then I answered saying: Yes. And then she asked me: ''Are you a Christian?'', while others were hearing this as well. Like what the hell? I felt so uncomfortable after she asked me this silly question, I felt as if I was being discriminated and humiliated at the same time! That was just not cool as all, I told this to others as well and they just told me that she was not even allowed to ask me something like that.
@@zekiuygun8028 i mean... as dutch. she is just asking you out of curiousity. and wanted to have a chat maybe?
but instead you turn her down. and talk shit behind her back. now thats rude....
I have worked in a US-based multinational and in every meeting you would hear Americans going: "I appreciate what you're saying, but... " followed by several minutes of yadayadayada. From the second word, everyone would know that the guy meant: nope. All the Dutch guys in the meeting would just say yes or no, and where needed defend their answer with arguments. I could never get used to the endless yadayada.
Hahaha I know what you're talking about. APPRECIATE YOU!
If you think about it: anything said before "but", gets dismissive.
Sometimes more is less
@@mladenivanov5630 Even in the Netherlands if you want a c-suite you most likely still need a silver tong and a lot of yadayadayadaing.
dutch meetings be like: sir honestly if we did this we would work faster.
instead of beating around the subject and land on said point after 10 minutes.
we see problem. we point at it. we fix it.
There is a dutch saying "doe maar normaal, dan doe je al gek genoeg" which translates "if you act normal, you're acting crazy enough". This basically means that you don't need to beat around the bush, just act normal/direct.
the directness is definetly a respect game, i can never understand how much many cultures dance around things and never get to a point, its funny how they emphasize respect but will never say things the way they actually think them. Sharing your true thoughts is something to be respected, you get to look inside someone elses mind that way.
As a Dutch person I went to England with my school the thing my English teacher kept repeating was ‘say twice as much thank you as you are used to.’😂
love your teachers direct way of dealing with British culture haha
They told me i should speak patwa if i wanted to pretend to be cool.
I am a Dutch coconut and I once had an Iranian colleague. He explained the concept of Taarof to me, which is an Iranian form of politeness/etiquette. I just couldn’t wrap my head around how a society can even function like that… 😂
I just googled that, yeah it's a mind boggling concept for us.
I was in Egypt and we went sailing on the Nile. It was nice trip and there were like 5 layers of hierarchy from the boat owner to the deck swabber. (at least 3 of those layers were unnecessary from our Western point of view, but were a way to fight unemployment (create some artificial jobs) After the trip I wanted to give all the crew a little tip. Oh my, what a mistaka to maka! Since I didn't know the hierarchy, I would give one guy too much and another one too little, so I should just give everything to the boss and he would distribute it according to social ranks. So we did, (and then secretly gave the lowest rank some extra )
@@Blackadder75 and you really believe they will distribute the money?
@@joostprins3381 yes, an unfair distribution is still a distribution......
Wow thanks Jay, had to google Taarof myself. I've heard from travelers that Iran is one of the most hospitable countries to visit-not surprised. But yeah, I love to learn about cultural differences so thanks for sharing-the beauty of this world!
@@Blackadder75 There’s a fairly big chance the “boss” kept everything for himself.
Of course we don’t have the context for the situation. But my first thought was “he’s not going to share it”.
The fact you actually gave him the money is rather surprising to me then. I expected the story to end with you distributing the money fairly.
I didn't realize I was so dutch until I had to run a forum community.
When a mod did something wrong, (and everyone was gossiping about it)
I would just tell them, but also try to work together to help them approve.
(give tips, try to hear them out etc.)
But alot of the time I got told, your directness shocked me.
But in the end, alot of people did appreciate it.
Because I didnt sugarcoat anything, but told it as it is,
there was no confusing.
And after that first shock went down they soon realized the reason
I mentioned it to them was because I wanted to help them improve.
Still, I am shocked by how people can beat around the bush so much.
Just tell it as it is.
I'm Belgian and my country is like the opposite of direct but i visit the Netherlands a lot and i love that directness, you don't have to guess what Dutch people think about you or other things.
From a slightly different perspective. I am a Dutchie and I am also on the autism spectrum. I like clear and direct communication, because if it isn't I have to work really hard to find the intent of what someone is saying (that part has to do with my autism). Having traveled a bit in countries that have a much more indirect cultures was a lot of fun, but conversations could be exhausting, because I would always have to try and figure out intent from context. This made blunder a few times too. I am pretty lucky that I was born in culture that prefers direct communication, because that is what my autistic brain prefers also.
Thanks for sharing. A few other Dutchies with autism also mentioned the same reason too.
i'm Dutch and have autisme aswel. And i prefer direct communication aswel . Its hard to filter true all the information to figure out what someone actualy trying to say.
Same! It's a shame though that not everyone here is direct, there are still a lot of people I know that talk around the point and it always confuses me so much
I have autism as well and being from Limburg i can tell you that people are a bit less direct here. Now having been born and raised here and having a light form of autism i do pick up on those nuances but it can be annoying. Then when i do go up North i'm not as used to the directness so i just get confused again. This stuff can be real tough.
I have the same problem!!!! Being Dutch and even too direct for the Dutch is cause I don't comprehend vague language, my brain is so fast and it get's stuck when it is vague communication , also traveled a lot and currently living abroad is a nightmare in this sense cause I have no clue which road of the interpretation to take, so i give up and have not much friends, due to this, but it is a struggle to be autistic and Dutch in the world 😂 , luckily I don't care, cause those that do like me are there to stay and put effort in and explain how I can learn from them, it's not rudeness it is simply different, but I am proud of the authenticity of it, most people in the world don't dare to be authentic cause society has programmed them to beat around the bush and have these masks on of politeness that only confuses more and the real information gets lost in translation . I'm with you!! ❤🙏🏻
Dutch directnes is also seen as polite in the Netherlands for example...(in dutch family's) a lot of the times we just say that we have to go to the toilet for number 2 and ask if there is somebody else who has to go because it might smell bad after me.
If there is something that i wear that is not fitting me and the people around me say nothing about it... after looking in the mirror again and i see that it is actually not fitting me, i feel bad that nobody was direct and said it to me.
If i notice that somebody does not like me i just say that i think he/she do not like me and that's oke for me but it is not my problem (this is how i met my best friend's XD)
If a dutch person notice that somebody is talking around a subject we just say... come to the point you make it so hard for yourself if there is a problem we are going to fix it.
And even in my own family, i mest up really bad sometime and my father was verry direct and said that he was really really dissapointed in me but also said directly after that ...even i am dissapointed, i am proud that you are my son. I actually think this is not common in a lot of cultures.
So directnes is also polite for dutch people.
Right?!? If i walk around all day with my fly unzipped and nobody mentions it, that is very rude and inconsiderate.
Interesting to hear that being direct is seen as "polite!" But makes sense. Thanks for sharing!
@@hidavidwen Seems like a no brainer to me. Or do you really prefer people who say nothing and then laugh about you after you left?
@@hidavidwen So now, as Dutch people don't really know what you mean. Does "interesting to hear" mean "what a bs things you do"?
@@hidavidwen Snapsna asking the legit question. I'm kinda curious too now.
Come on, give a honest Dutch answer.
I'm Dutch. My experience is that a lot of Dutch say A but think/do B. Most Dutch people often take pride in their supposedly direct communication style but really, out of, say, 10 Dutch people I would say 5 "act" direct (they communicate assertively but really aren't telling you what they actually think), 4 aren't direct at all (i.e. beating around the bush, or just politely not saying stuff to be socially desireable) and the remaining person actually is direct (meaning they say what they actually think about a subject, ask hard questions etc). So many times I heard a Dutch person say A but found out they do (and thus think) B.
Thanks for sharing Pascal
I think it's all relative. I used to think the same as you do, I didn't really see how we are so direct. There's a lot of "diplomatic" ways to give negative feedback, for example. You wouldn't literally tell someone their idea is shit in 99% of the cases, even in The Netherlands.
Then I went to the US for 3 weeks, and that changed my mind real quick. Compared to there, yeah we're really direct. And the proof is in this video: Lots of expats in this video noticed the directness.
For example: In The Netherlands, when you believe an idea is bad, you can just say "Yeah but your idea wouldn't really work because of reasons A and B". Apparently, this isn't very normal for many other cultures.
@@Thunterise I had the same experience with Americans. I agree with you. Compared to the Americans (at least the ones you and I dealt with) the Dutch are super direct.
Inally sommeone is brave enough to show the true colors of dutch people, above that they are very arrogant and believe their country is almost to perfect and it is far from that, they deny to accept that the country do has a lot of problems and pretend as everything is fine, try to live there for some 20 years and it becomes worse every minute, i get sexually harrassed by black people there out of nowhere, and when you are an asian person, you just have to walk by a group of maroccans who are on paper dutch as they are 2nd generations and higher, the country has too many different etnicities but deny the fact that it does have hige issues, this is simply just 1 of the many examples
Had a Dutch colleague in uni and imo he was way more friendly and punctual than other students from say, Japan or Brazil. If you asked him to study at the library, it was fast yes or no, boom done. No shyness or quietness, we wouldn't stop for food or coffee, he was direct and efficient. He was also very outdoorsy, a blast to go biking with.
More punctual than Japanese? Not possible. They always at least 15 minutes early.
@@paulnijsten8390 lol, Japanese and Korean boyos abroad are corrupted in 2 weeks, 1 month tops. A group of mad lads from Tokyo got drunk and tried to slaughter chickens in their dorm washroom once, fucking spectacular disaster
Directness was also born from fighting bigger powers. The English army had class hierarchy in their armies, which slowed things down, or could lead to major blunders. When you have a tiny army fighting such a nation, making fast quick decisions, having people act on what they see, not on the status of their commander can make a huge difference. We see this too in Israel, which feels surrounded by enemies (regardless of your political opinion on the matter) and needs versatile people being able to act fast. In 1672 the Netherlands was attacked by all neighbors, all who were bigger. The same with water defense: act quick, and have everyone on board, because not agreeing with political opponents should not sabotage the shared interest of keeping heads above water.
Thanks for sharing!
Huh, that actually makes a lot of sense.
Nice alternate history scenario, except we had class differences to a huge degree same as the UK had.
My grandfather had a framed newspaper article about him: "Factory owner congratulates worker with birthday".
That was news. The fact that one of 'the betters' had acknowledged the existance of a commoner.
Well 'was forced to accept' was more like it. As a master-welder they couldn't go without him, their company relied on being able to perform seamless welds, and ask any welder today: Even with much improved modern equipment, that is still considered to be a feat of extreme skill, along with welding titanium.
Yeah because water doesn't care about your opinion or feelings when it destroys our dams and we won't like another waternoodsramp to happen.
@@fredpuntdroad8701 We had class differences yes, and stupid leaders too. But the English are way more famous for stupid leaders making awful decisions common soldiers suffered the consequences from. Class differences work when things seem in order. When a system is under pressure you either drop big chunks of them, or f up.
I'm a big fan of our directness. The people that I get along with best are the most direct Dutch people, as within the Dutch population there still is some variation of how direct they are. And me being insecure in some aspects of life, I prefer the very blunt but honest truth. Leaving absolutely no room to misinterpret the message. And I'm often the same.
Thanks for sharing!
@@mladenivanov5630 Maybe it was the way you said it?
@@mladenivanov5630 That probably was the problem. As there is a difference between blunt but honest feedback and just insulting someone. It's a thin line between those two and when you get to know eachother better that line shifts.
i'm always extremely direct and alot of people appreciate it. They also ask my opinion aalot of times. If people get mad don't ask questions if you can't handle an honest answer / opinion : )
I was lucky enough to find a group of friends who were totally different than me. Me being awkward and insecure as heck, a loner (also multiple diagnosed mental issues). They just accepted me, and were very direct with me. Which ultimately helped me overcome a lot of issues.
They make comments about my personality, but we all do about each other. It's just the respect and acceptance, which is so appreciated.
About being conscious about directness: I just had a really Dutch style conversation with a top fortune 500 company based in the US. We had a major issue. Me and a collegae really spoke our mind. I am almost certain the other side was aware of Dutch directness but I could see a range of emotions. So after our negative feedback backed up by examples and evidence we took about 15 minutes (1/4 of the entire meeting) to make shure the busines relationship was still ok/ ok again.
Aaaah, the old. 'this is the work floor so we separate our work from our personal feelings, but we don't mean anything personal. So afterwards we bring back our personal and fun self to reconnect with each other on a personal level.' trick
Thanks Koen. Yeah I can totally relate to this. I do trainings on giving/receiving feedback and well...yeah giving (negative) feedback is just not easy in general...especially cross-culturally
I’m Dutch with an American dad and a Dutch mother. I grew up bilingual and have dual citizenship. Whenever I visit my family in the states I notice how much of a culture shock it is for me whenever I visit a store or a restaurant. Usually in Europe, when you go shopping you’ll be greeted , asked once if you need anything maybe and then they usually leave you alone. In the states it seems like a whole ritual. They greet u , ask you how you’re doing, if you’re looking for anything special. Compliment you on your outfits ( even when you’re wearing the most basic shit ever 😂) and telling you about special offers “you have to try our new yadayada”. Even if you say “ oh i’m just looking around they check in on you every 10 minutes . It honestly made me realize how much of an introvert I am bc I hate social contact and I got so overwhelmed and over stimulated by just one afternoon of shopping 😂. And most of those people were really sweet and I actually like talking to Americans. It’s just funny to me how much more reserved we are as Dutch people when it comes to customer service.
Hah thanks Britney, I can relate with everything you just said. I see these differences now when I go back…and I am also an introvert and get annoyed when it’s too much (ironic because I used to work in customer service so I may have annoyed a lot of people!).
But yeah customer service is another thing…if we say Dutch directness is efficient and saves time, American customer service is more efficient and saves more time from that point of view
"In the states it seems like a whole ritual. They greet u , ask you how you’re doing, if you’re looking for anything special. Compliment you on your outfits ( even when you’re wearing the most basic shit ever 😂) and telling you about special offers"
🤔This probably is because of the American tipping culture. If the custumer isn't treated like royalty he'll loose a big tip.
😤As a Dutchie I find this highly insulting, cauz I'm not gonna grovel for a lil' bit of xtra 💵.
Funny that you should say this because most of my friends (we're all dutchies) often complain about not liking having employees talking to us when we're just minding our business shopping. Especially regarding clothes. I feel quite similar actually. Everyone I know does, now that I think about it.
For me it's kind of a: I am a grown adult with a brain. I know you work here and are available to me should I need help. If I do need help, I will gladly ask you for it. If I don't need help, I would prefer you to not talk to me and make me feel like I'm being watched. It makes me feel like I'm not quick enough, or that I look lost. I prefer to feel like nobody is paying attention to me.
What are the pros of being direct?
Every dutch person: "You don't waste a lot of time."
The shortest way from a to b is a straight line. By analogy with our flat country where we move from one place to another in an efficient manner, our communication also honors in this way. I enjoy working with people from all kinds of cultures and I am regularly struck by how many words these cultures use to express themselves compared to the Dutch. I take that into account in conversations, but I can't always avoid directness in my conversation. We're not usually rude, it's just part of our being. I always hope that other cultures keep this in mind when they meet a Dutch person, in the end we all have to do our best to understand and learn from each other.
Thanks for sharing Rob. Dutch efficiency indeed!
I'm Dutch, and I think this directness is mostly seen in the big cities of the Netherlands. I come from a small village in the Netherlands where people tend to be way less direct compared to the big city areas. When I go to cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam, or Nijmegen, I notice that people there are way more direct, and even I can perceive them as rude. So i really think it depends on where you live in the Netherlands.
Thats weird, i've always considered it to be the other way around. After all, we tent to call farmers 'botte boeren'. The randstad is a lot more gentle in comunication, than say for examle the achterhoek. It also depends on profesion, people working in construction and agriculture are increadibly to the point.
As a Dutchie, I would say I prefer open and honest communication, in other words being direct. Beating around the bush or trying to soften something you're trying to get across could lead to misunderstandings.
On the part of arguing with professors: it's a huge part of getting to the level of your professor, being able to bring up opinions and being able to hold discussions over topics that most of the time there isn't a solid answer for is one of the biggest skills a scientist can have and therefore is heavily stimulated by both professors as well as universities as a whole here. Its a big difference with other countries but something that really elevates Dutch higher education above other countries
It's usual considered rude for Dutch people if aren't direct. Like sugar coating everything or beating around the bush all the time is considered rude, this is done sometimes, it depends on the type of conversation
Aw interesting to hear that it's RUDE if someone is indirect! Well effective communication is always knowing who your audience is...and being able to read the other person...but yeah I've learned to try to be more direct with someone who has more of a direct style. And for those with more indirect, I also try to adapt as well
I've come down on pile as bricks against those who beat around the bush, so that's definately true.
Like it's an important meeting, a couple million euros depends on it.
We have a study that says X. We're bothered by a sabotaging third party with a nonsensical study that says "X is false, Y is true". I need an answer whether the decision will be go forward with X, or bow to the sabotaging party, consider Y may be valid (and I have to start filing lawsuits, and everybody goes crazy, and everybody has a lot of problems).
Then they start beating around the bush with nonsense like "All perspectives are important" or "We must make a carefully informed decision". Yes you must, so tell me X or Y right now. We've both read the file, we both know X is true and you're just scared of making decisions, now tell me. And from there on just interupt anything that's not X or Y.
Waiting 10-26 weeks for people scared of decisions to just stare at the ceiling is not a luxury we can afford in my business.
@@hidavidwen Yeah or it's considered annoying like : oh our lord and saviour Jebus Christ just let this dumbass get to his point already.
Exactly! As a Dutchie I really do not appreciate and trust people who beat around the bush. Just be honest and straight. If not I always suspect a hidden agenda.
I'm Dutch but i still like to watch videos like this every now and again because i learn a lot about myself and my culture. I also just love culture shock. But anyways that exchange between Trump and Rutte just made me laugh so hard. I had no idea that happened
Thanks and glad to hear you learned something! And that exchange…hahaha yeah made the whole world laugh!
It’s funny Trump didn’t even acknowledge Rutte !
I'd say language is a very big factor here.
Few foreign people learn to speak dutch, and there also lies a nuance in how to adequatley observe and state what exactly is this directness in culture, language and how people interact in daily life.
We do have our way of interacting in pleasant way.
To me being direct is being sincere, and that is the biggest honour I can give the people I get to meet. It's me offering them no reason to distrust me because they get to perceive me and decide for themselves if I'm someone they can relate to or not.
I'd like to mirror this video by stating I don't feel I can trust someone who's keeping up appearance or/and etiquette and manners; I don't know who I'm talking to when receiving desireable replies.
Fun fact: Even within the Netherlands there is a difference in how direct people are communicating and stating directly what they mean and think.
In the North there's directness; few words to state exactly what you think, in the south much less so, like beating around the bush to entice people in your way of seeing the issue.
Grts from Amsterdam
It's interesting to see the Netherlands and Japan so far removed from the context spectrum. In history, the Netherlands was one of the earliest few who could successfully trade with Japan. In modern day, the NL and Japan have good business relations as well. My family is Dutch, my dad worked with a group of Japanese clients who really valued his work. Dad was placed quite close to the Japanese team lead during a work dinner, for example. Honesty and putting those words into action are really powerful in business!
Maybe a case of Opposites Attract, because Japan is known for being very sensitive to social hierarchy and not dissapointing those above you no matter the cost, which leads to a lot of indirectness. Pretty much the polar opposite of how the Dutch interact with each other, I'd say.
@@AlexanderBurgers Part of it is also that the Netherlands did a lot of trade throughout history. In business you learn to adjust when necessary.
I feel like Japanese and Chinese people as well can actually work quite well with our directness and it helps to achieve things. At least for the people that I talk with I feel this is true.
The main reason is not the directness, or the opposites. It is because the Dutch did not go about and conquer everything they saw. The British, the Spanish and the Portuguese did, and got booted of the land. The Dutch went in as equals and set up trades with the Japanese.
And not just with the Japanese, mind you. With a a lot of cultures and countries. It is the single most reason why the Dutch have very good relationships with at lot countries for ages already.
The reason only the dutch traded with Japan was they were the only country that didn't try to force their religion on Japan. The dutch only cared about trade.
Dutch directness, best example is Max Verstappen. He is an example of Dutch communication. He tells the people in the red bull team what is going good and wrong in the car. In the short time they get, he really makes a good set -up for the season and for the next race. It helps the team it helps him. You also hear it in interviews. It is not to be rude, it is a culture thing.
So true and that’s why he also has a lot of (social media) hatred thrown at him, because people misunderstand directness to be rude. He say’s it a lot of times in interviews, it is what it is. And that line can’t be more Dutch.
Great example!
He's flemish
@@johan4105 Flemish is not a nationality
Hij is direct, daar gaat het om!! En Vlaanderen praat Nederlands(gelukkig),dus hetzelfde volk👍🏼
As a Dutch person. I'm incredibly used to the directness. So much so that when this video started I just thought; "what the fuck is this guy talking about". But you are completely correct. Most of us are extremely direct. I do think there is another positive outcome of this fact worth mentioning. By being used to direct communication we take criticism less personal and are more likely to see it as a point of improvement instead of a personal offense.
Additionally, being open about who you are as a person, makes for a great way to get people to open up to you. I think one of the loveliest compliments I've ever received was from someone I met in the US. A girl descrived me as being the most 'genuine' person she had ever met. It honestly just made me smile thinking back at that moment. I will carry that complement with me for the rest of my life.
However, in general, I did come to realize that, in the US for example, when you are meeting random people the tend to be overly sweet. To the point where I often felt like I had stumbled into an overly and forcefully happy game show. People would, upon finding out we're foreigners, often say things like "wouw really , the Netherlands?! That's amazing". While in the reverse situation I would likely say "Dawm! You are a long way from home. What made you want to visit the Netherlands?"
Dutchie here! I also would like to note that Amsterdam (which is very often used as synonym to the Netherlands and where I feel most foreign people seem to move to) is the place where people are the most direct. (and other major cities) Other areas of the Netherlands actually have another pace at which they live, where directness is actually less prominent. Amsterdam's bluntless/directness is actually a concept on it's own, where even other Dutchies sometimes can't handle it at all. If someone is really direct: "(S)He's probably from Amsterdam" or shortened to "Amsterdammer"
Other Pro's to directness: I know where I stand with people AND I can adjust to that (or choose not to). It saves me from being stabbed in the back! I can't read people's thoughts, so they'd have to tell me if they would like something from me.
Simple example: A collegue of mine placed his half-empty cup on a table right behind a door. (he did that more often) On occassion, if another collegue walked in and opened the door too wide, the cup fell to the ground spilling the coffee. Instead of mentioning this to the owner of the cup. The other collegue cleaned it up and went on with her life. BUT she kept a grudge! Everytime he placed that cup on the table she'd be angry. "Cant he see that that's a problem?", she'd say behind his back.
I asked: "Did you tell him?" She hadn't and was planning on trying to make him see the problem without telling.
Direct me asked the first collegue not to place the cup there because it could fall over when the doors opens. His reaction: "Oh, didn't think of that."
He never placed the cup there again, crisis averted, by just being a bit more direct.
So yeah, being direct can sometimes even save (work)relationships.
Also, I think the "Are you stupid?"of Sven Kramer was actually unneccesarily rude. I get why he didn't want to say it, and it's fine that he didnt want to, but calling someone stupid is still rude.
Thanks for sharing the long reply Nisa, appreciate you! I've lived in Maastricht and can tell the difference.
And great example of directness! Communication is usually the biggest challenge at work (and in life)-and often, having that conversation can be the solution to the biggest challenges we all have (of course that's not always easy too).
I disagree on the amsterdam part. Ever been to Friesland?
@@res6148 Or Rotterdam The Hague? they'll tell you no all the time and to do "normaal". I'd even argue that Amsterdam, with all the tourists and internationals living there is less direct then the other cities. But overall, going away from the cities to the east and south it becomes less direct and "warmer". If that's the point she was trying to making I'd agree
@@res6148 You're reading my mind!!
"There is little room to be creative." I think that's an interesting statement. If you're direct back, you can usually get to some creative new ideas. The barrier might more be in how you're communicating to each other rather than someone just not being open to ideas, suggestions or straight up different views entirely.
I was thinking the same thing! You need to combine directness and assertiveness. This way, you can have an honest conversation and actually get somewhere. Wonderful creative conversations and ideas can occur when people actually listen to eachother and don't beat around the bush.
Totally agree. Directness is not the same as rudeness, creativity or assertiveness. In fact, if someone decides the mentioned optioned aren't options (instead of trying to maybe make it work somehow) you are forced to come up with new ideas.
True. If your company is bottom up instead of top down, creativity is even enhanced in this culture because assertive employees will conribute because their ideas matter. You can't expect that every idea is followed of course but I don't think that you can translate that to "little room for creativity". If you bounce the ball around a few times, creative ideas can become more solid and might be a way to go forward. So assertiveness and directness might be a very contributing force here. The strongest brain storm I had, was about a marketing plan being almost fully worked out in half an hour because everybody kept bouncing the ball around and ideas kept on pouring. Once distilled, that plan was ready to go.
Dutch directness to me is all about saving time. I don't have time to waste. We are extremely busy people, often in a rush to get one appointment after the other. If the answer is no, then please just say no because there are at least 3 other things I could be doing in that timeframe. Not much is ever spontaneous in our culture, not even get-togethers or going out for dinner. Everything is planned weeks ahead and I like it that way. Time is precious.
An excellent explanation of the Dutch directness. Should be viewed by everybody visiting or moving the Netherlands.
I appreciate directness because next to avoiding misunderstanding eachother which is good for business, it also helps me help others better. Please, dont hide your wishes, just tell me what you need or prefer so I can help you improve your day. That said, having worked with people from more indirect cultures helped me be more successful in communicating negative feedback in a more constructive way.
"Are you stupid?" is simply rude.
He could have said: "Are you kidding me?", because that's not a personal attack.
It is always interesting to hear peoples perspectives on this, but honestly I usually don't even think about it.
I do have had some instances where people would even misinterpret me on the internet. They were trying to find some hidden meaning behind my words. so I usually just say "No if I wanted to say something else I would have just said it. I mean what I say and I say what I mean".
This is very relatable.
I, as a dutch person has had several problems with these differences in directness, for example, in my mother side of my family. These are the most direct people i have ever met, and i had problems trying to communicate with that side of the family because my fathers family was way more emotionally engaged and empathethic. When i got older however, i started to understand their love language a lot more and i have never felt more at home in my family than i do now.
So if you do plan on coming to the Netherlands, just remember that we can be very friendly but blunt at the same time :).
Don't be or get misdirected by our directness!
We may (at times) sound harsh or rude whilst speaking our minds but in reality we observe and care deeply.
There are rude people in the Netherlands -- because there are rude people in all cultures. The directness gets conflated with rudeness when there's a culture clash. Or maybe culture skirmish, is better way to put it? Culture kerfuffle? Good video! Can't wait to visit the Netherlands. Love the cycling culture!
O we do have real rude ones here. Just because we are direct doesn't mean we alwys have to voice our opinion. Even here we do have some standards of whats apropiate.
@@arturobianco848 agree, that's maybe one of the cons for me that some people use directness as an excuse to be rude instead but to Dutch people they would also just be seen as rude
@@mladenivanov5630 There are allot of rude dutch people, its just in their blood
I’m from the Netherlands 🇳🇱 but I’m not rude
@@ijsthee1000 Oh yes says the rude person
Simple way to explain dutch directness and what it ultimately boils down to is...efficient communication.
Hmm, I think I can see why some people from other countries might consider Netherlands a rude country.
I live in the Netherlands but I was born in Poland, learning was actually way easier thanks to the Dutch directness, they were not beating around the bush and actually helped me to open my eyes.
Even though I might not be as direct as most Dutch people, I am not the same as I was before arriving to the Netherlands.
Which I think is a great thing, anyways..
Great video!
Thanks!
I'm Dutch/Surinamese and I like it when people get straight to the point. There is less room for miscommunication and misunderstandings. One will know where they stand whilst skipping useless or fake formalitie (Not all formalities are useless of course, it depends on the situation). You don't waste a persons time and I find that to be assertive and respectful. It's flexible as well because you can still disagree or ask questions. A direct answer does not mean the end of a conversation, you can still discuss and share your point of view.
I used to think Americans were incredibly two-faced. But that was before I knew about the cultural difference. The overly niceness, followed by a (to me) cold shoulder was very confusing haha.
this is even the case in the Dutch armed forces.
there is often consultation with the group in order to arrive at the best action.
the commander ultimately has the last word, of course.
but we are aware that together we know more than just the commander. therefore, especially with the engineers, it is often the case that important decisions about the assignment to be carried out are taken together and adjusted if necessary.
There is a reason the western military is not fully directed from the top any more.
But instead the individual groups direct themselves.
Its cus it works better and faster.
Russia on the other had still works whit a top down pyramid system works really well for em
I really like the coconut peach comparison. I am going to use that haha. As a dutchie my experience is also that us dutchies get very uncomfortable when it comes to compliments and showing graditude. Maybe it feels like showint to much vulnerability
Haha it's based on research! I like the comparison too.
Thanks for sharing (I hope you can accept that and not get too uncomfortable!)
Thanks for the great video. Couldn't agree more.
0:55 As a Dutch guy I can say that 'Are you stupid?' as a reaction is not direct, but rude.
Just saying 'no, thank you' or if that doesn't work 'no' is direct.
As a Dutch person I feel like our directness keep us connected and real with each other.
@@kasulthecasual this really changes per household around the world. I always do except for when theres a party or something
@Kasul the Casual When visiting a place with a culture that has taking your shoes off when entering someone’s home, sure.
But in the case of our own country, why would we do that?
@Kasul the Casual but then my feet get cold😅
@@smegmalasagna for hygiene. You went outside with those shoes and then walk around with those dirty shoes in your home
@@Ikramyal Foot mats exist so that you can clean your shoes before going inside.
I go to an international colledge in the Netherlands (has a dutch person). We have countless nationalities at the school and the ones ice spoken to all have different reactions.
A Canadian Swiss student and student from the Caribbean found us to be rude but a German student liked the Dutch people, so did a student from Hong Kong.
We even have a course in the first year to help new students deal with the culture shock that comes with moving to a new country.
Chinese tend to get along well with our default communication, in my experience. Theirs is a strange culture, very direct in its own way as well.
There are different terms for family members based on seniority as well for strangers with a certain generational appearance in relation to yours. If you're 20 and interacting with a woman aged 45 who's for example providing you a service, you can refer to her as an auntie, from aunt.
It's a low-trust society and people tend to not mince words about anything besides politics.
But because it has such indications of seniority built into the language itself, there's not really any courtesy in sentences. They do however use silence as a form of non-confronting anger, and that can be very confusing. A fairly recent example on television was the idiot singer Gordon appearing in some sort of trashy talent scouting thing. Gordon makes an incredibly insensitive joke towards a Chinese participant, a joke that was lame since 1980 even if you don't believe in being sensitive.
You can tell the Chinese guy is fuming angry and there's a dead silence to signal it (according with a pretty good "Dude, really?" stare), but Gordon thinks it's approval for his lame joke because he's not being verbally called out on it.
@@fredpuntdroad8701 Very interesting, thanks for sharing :D
@@fredpuntdroad8701 Interesting, (as a Dutch person myself), that totally doesn't match my experience in business dealings with people from China, but it's a big place...
The people I dealt with were all small talk, how are you my friend, bla bla, want to ask you a question if you have time, bla bla.
And in my head I'm like, just start with the damn question, it's online conversation spanning a massive timezone difference, there's no need for all this.. conversational foreplay.
I play along cause I don't wanna be the rude one, it still feels massively pointless.
@@AlexanderBurgers
But I imagine you communicated in English and it was all online?
@@fredpuntdroad8701 yeah, that's the case. Maybe it's different that way from personal interaction, but (from my perspective) no matter how you look at it, it's weird starting an online conversation with a concrete goal/question, with small talk and platitudes, it feels disingenuous.
As Ukrainian, I like that because we are also direct in communication. Of course depends from ppl btw 😁
Being a Dutch woman, I hate it when people try to talk around things. I love being honest and can't handle lies and bullshit very well. It makes me a true person but I also lose people because I'm either being too honest and/or they are lying about or talking around the answer that i actually want to get. But this way I know who will be right for me. others have described me as "tough" and "direct" or even "one of a kind" since a lot of women actually do talk around things or stab your back, even in the netherlands. I wish people could be more straight forward so we can all move on, instead of being hurt all the time. Directness is not bad at all.
As a Canadian, I would attribute the indirectness as an almost emotional manipulation. It sort of broke me when it came to emotional abuse growing up and I found I preferred the direct approach over everything else within my interactions in my homeland. Personally, I find I respond reflexively to be indirect and attempt to soften the interaction when I'm placed in a situation where I could lose something big: housing, employment, medical support or my immediate wellbeing. I get uncomfortable at a perceived imbalance of power and immediately switch to trying to people-please instead of being firm but sometimes I will perceive a situation as an emergency and come off incredibly intense... I'm working on it but I find it's easier to work on when I'm around more direct people.
I think being direct and honest is one of the best traits a person can have. I want to you to tell me what you really think and not what you think I'd like to hear. Being direct makes everything so much easier and I appreciate honesty rather than trying to be nice.
I am German and we also have this directness I think.
Thanks Gretchen! I’ve come to appreciate it and have become a lot more direct myself too
This is one thing that I love about my country and is one of the reasons I could never leave. The no bullshit mentality is such a great way of living. Nobody is wearing masks. You hear wat you need to hear.
Interesting topic! Love the peach and coconut analogy haha
Thanks Angeli =)
One other factor, compared to British English is that Dutch society is much more egalitarian than British society, especially historically where gentry played a much larger role in the UK than in the Netherlands. British English had developed various registers depending on which level in society one was. A series as Downton Abbey shows that very well. So in the UKit was much more required to adapt you language to whoever one was speaking with. Not so much in the Netherlands.
Thanks for sharing!
i love the keyboard painting in the back that just says bread gives a good vibe
As a Dutchman I don't trust people that easily if they need too many words, then I think why do they beat around the bush? I'm looking for a reason why they don't just tell it like it is. But I think it's pretty well explained and I'm very proud of our honesty and straight to the point character!🌹
Fascinating -- thank you David. Direct and polite -- something to work towards!
Thanks John, something to work towards!
On the two scales the Netherlands and Germany are very close, but in the business and company culture the two are very different with Germany being very hierarchical. And about Calvinism, the Netherland is very different from most Scandinavian countries who also are influenced by Calvin. (just observations from a dutchie)
As another dutch person, we also dont like dishonesty, if you get an invitation and have other plans, you just say you cant make it. When someone is making up an excuse, it perceived as disrespectful and dishonest towards the person who invited you. As in "you dont even respect the person enough to be honest to the person"
Whenever I've said I'm busy I get the third degree. I always feel they don't believe me.
I love your Videos David, very well explained. Good research. calm and clear presentation. great work. will follow you for sure ))
Thanks Eric, appreciate the kind words and support!
Ik ben moe, dus doe het even in het Nederlands. Ik ben als Nederlander natuurlijk opgevoed met de directheid. Maar man, man, man, wat een gedoe was dat toen ik in China was en contact had met de familie van mijn oudste dochter. Ik had altijd het idee ik aan het vissen was naar het juiste antwoord. Ik heb vaak gezegd tegen mijn dochter "ik word zo moe van hun gedraai en getreuzel om een reactie te geven". Maar ja, dat heb je al snel als je de Nederlandse directheid gewend bent :-)
Je zat trouwens in het Novotel zag ik. Oeps, ben ik nu te direct? :- )
here the translation to english good story btw :)
I'm tired, so I'll write this in Dutch. As a Dutch person, I was raised with directness. But man, oh man, was it a hassle when I was in China and had contact with my oldest daughter's family. I always felt like I was fishing for the right answer. I often told my daughter, "I'm getting so tired of their evasiveness and hesitation to give a response." But that's just how it is when you're used to Dutch directness :-)
By the way, I saw that you were staying at the Novotel. Oops, am I being too direct? :-)
@@freakgib Dank voor de vertaling!
Hah thanks Bert and Gert! Oh that must've been an experience (in China) haha. I can imagine because I know the Chinese culture very well. Chinese people can be really direct in their own community-especially if it's an elder speaking to a young child. But VERY indirect and polite to foreigners. But yeah...the beauty of this world =)
Yes that's the Novotel! Haha of course you would know Hoofddorp
It's always a bit sad the "dutch directness" issue is reduced to the question whether we are rude.
There is actually a lot of nuance in the way we are direct. We also have introverts and extraverts, and we all have areas where we feel less or more comfortable to express ourselves.
I guess a defining attribute about our directness is that more often then not we assume the other person is safe and snug inside their comfortzone and we approach eachother as such. Sometimes that's not the case and this is something we pick up on really quickly and act upon without even thinking about it.
So no, we are not rude, we simply give eachother space to be who we are and our directness is a result of that because we are not in the habit of questioning it.
Edit: In the comments someone gave an example that perfectly illustrates this. They said when you get an invitation to go to a soccergame it's perfectly fine to decline "because you don't enjoy the game of soccer". That's something personal the other extender of the invitation has nothing to do with, so why is it polite to sugarcoat or even hide it? As a concept that doesn't make sense and to expect such is what we would consider rude.
Great video, i love how open you talked about it. im a dutch myself and you explained our story extremely well :)
Thank you =)
Loved the video! Dankjewel!
I'm Dutch and the indirect culture of other countries is sometimes hard to deal with. What do you mean and What do you expect from me. Do you want to say no or do you want help. Because being direct means being honest in what you want and need. Not so much about what you think about others. There is a difference
I know what you mean, i have been working a lot with foreigners, or people from other cultures (sometimes i was the foreigner). What i really cant stand, if they call you out for something without actually saying it and i end up asking them if they call me what i think they did. And their response is often: thats not what i am saying. No i know, but i am trying to figure out what you are saying.
i just love "I'm sure it's my fault." "It's not my fault." "IT WAS THEIR FAULT."
David, you’re awesome. Love how you took the best parts of directness to integrate into yourself.
I hope my fellow countrymen and women coming into contact with you can learn to be more considerate and polite as well. It’s exchanges like this that balance our world ❤
Thanks Michael!
As a dutch person I think that our language already sounds very sarcastic or rude but when we use too much nice words like please and thanks sometimes makes it even more sarcastic
What do you think about Dutch directness? 🇳🇱
(And of course, there are individual and regional differences to "directness")
Not everyone is the same. That includes for Dutch directness. I know people like labels, it’s just not how it works. Most Dutch people I know actually prefer to be more subtle in their communication.
Het verschilt ook per regio. De Randstad (Amsterdam/ Utrecht/ Rotterdam)
is volgens mij veel directer dan bijvoorbeeld de provincie Groningen of Overijssel.
@@henriettebrouwer8193 Don't think so. In the east they use very few words, sometimes just shrugs or little sounds to express strong feelings. If you're not from around there, you easily miss that type of communication; you just think them boring or stubborn or uneducated. (While the guy from the east thinks: I just shrugged/lifted a brow/cocked my nose/..., didn't you listen? Amsterdammers are so dumb... They think they're better or sumpin.)
I think that the directness is a consequence of wanting everything to be very efficient. Beating about the bush is not being polite; it eats up time and that is not preferable. It may even convey a message like 'I'm taking your time by talking a lot, so I'm more important'.
I am Dutch
We are not that direct. In relationships it is not easy.
But we point out the things wrong, to make inprovements.
And we like to take a word for what is said, not saying one thing and doing something else.
If I say I come tomorrow, I will come.
That is THE Dutchway.
Unfortunately many dutch seem to not understand nuances between tactful directness and being rude. I appreciate directness and transparency, but directness has been used too often as an apology for being poorly behaved.
For me so far ... this is the best explanation about the Dutch directness. And the coconut theory was spot-on.
Thanks =)
Thank you for openly quoting the source of your explanation. Too many channels just use the thoughts of others, without giving them credit.
Thanks Bruno!
8:23 this is so true😂, in my classes there are students who flat out don't leave the classroom when asked/ordered to do so and they talk back all the sh!t the teacher does😂😂
Sometimes direct answers in any way can cause some akwardness between people because the conversations are shorter and need to come up with a lot of topics to proceed the conversation. But overall the directness is very handy as well because when you are in a hurry and someone tries to talk to you, you can just ask to talk later without needing to worrie about the other person thinking youre rude.
The best thing about our language is the scarcasm we often use 😂
On vacation I once listened to a 40-50 year oldish british woman talk about her experience being in the swimming pool 3 minutes ago to her friend. The way she described the waves clashing against her skin while floating on an inflatable tube with the sun warming the top of her body was crazy. Any dutch person would have said yeah the water's nice in this hot weather
I mostly see Dutch directness as a pro. Dutch tend to be very efficient and get things done. The big con is, that the Dutch are well aware of this and abuse it by selling rudeness as directness. It’s a very thin line and I think that it would be quite difficult for a foreigner to navigate through that. As someone that has been brought up mostly Dutch, I can’t help but feel that my Surinamese side kicks in which contains a friendlier and more social approach.
What I think as a solid convenience is, that I believe that I can recognize when a Dutch person is being rude and apply both cultural influences in certain conversations.
Thanks for sharing!
As a Dutch i definitely agree with this. There is a difference between being direct and not caring about other peoples feelings. You can care about other peoples feelings by staying empathetic and still be direct. Like, 'i acknowledge your feelings about this way, but we are going to do it this way anyway because of this and that reason. Maybe we can come up with a solution of compromis?'.
Still direct, but also room for feelings.
If you're direct about them 😜.
While being rude is just 'we are doing it my way and i dont care how you feel about it'. Big difference
Even within The Netherlands there are distinct variations of directness. Basicly it is the difference between the urban areas containing the "randstad" (amsterdam, den haag, rotterdam, utrecht etc) and the nature/farmlands outside of it.
You also notice it in the Dutch army. Though the military has a very clear hierarchy, the communication is still very direct and transparent. Also from lower ranked people.
A bad leader will notice it very fast when making mistakes, even though they get the final say.
Words just weigh more in Holland. If you get a compliment form a direct communicator, you are sure it's from the heart and not for some shady reason or because of a hidden agenda. A second layer to dutch communication is that you can state emotional values as a reason why someone wants or does'nt want to do something. I sense that in indirect cultures (I live in Belgium, they are much more indirect) emotional values aren't really shared by direct communication but are avoided by reading between the lines. I still have trouble sensing the (to me) unclear communication about what somebody wants. And yes, people are raised in true democracy fashion at home. My kids have a say on what direction we go forward at home. Dutch culture also strongly uses everybodies opinion/expertise before going forward. Meetings often include a question round where everybody is asked if they want to add something to the meeeting that is relevant.
I have the kind of the same experience as yourself. I'm from Northern Ireland and there's a kind of mix of genuine friendliness and honesty, but it's not direct like the Dutch do. I'm more used to someone saying to me, "Uck wise up!" Rather than a Dutch person saying, "That's a dumb idea." Both mean the same thing, I'm just so used to this kind of friendly insulting honesty/craic Vs Dutch Directness; I don't think I'll ever get on board with it...! But I like that it's helping me be more honest with myself too. Kinda freeing to say how it is, rather hmm'ing and haa'ing your way around the point.
Also don't forget about big cities. Can't speak for the rest of the country, but I'd bet that some directness is more rudeness and cold capital city attitudes. I've lived in 4, and more often than not, city folk aren't as friendly as country folk.
Thanks Liam! Yeah, city folks are definitely way more direct than country folks.
If someone says its a dumb idea thats rude even for a dutch person. At least as a dutchie myself I would say that the person is rude. The idea isnt good would be more appropriate. Except if it is in a friendly enviroment and you have that kind of friendship.
Ik woon in Rotterdam. Ja. Directnes hier!!!!Op begin kon ik daar echt niet tegen. Maar na 17 jaar, het heeft mij erg veranderd en echt sterk gemaakt. Love it
Asking, "Are you stupid?" isn't being direct. It's being superior than the other person.
I'm a Canadian living in The Netherlands and the directness still affects me lol. Canada is quite indirect and I'm considered direct for a Canadian but that doesn't change how much more direct Dutchies are compared to Canadians. I have to remind myself of cultural differences and to try change my habits to be more direct with them as that's more respectful of their time. Been a struggle though!!! Had a couple moments talking to my Dutch partner about it and feeing frustrated.
I get ya. I'm quite indirect and had (still have) to get used to the directness. I've found myself to be more direct since living here...but yeah, I do try to adapt based on who I am talking to. Communication is challenging in general haha...but it's a two-way street. And the struggle is real. But...the struggle could also signal a potential opportunity for growth/learning too =)
As for a Dutch person i do understand how it can be rude because my mom is from Ghana and can take the simple answers as rude while if i do the same for my dad or dutch friends they don't really care how i say it so yeah big difference of my African and Dutch part of the family (and i always speak English to friends which effected my accent to the point that my teacher thought i was american)
Ah two very different cultures. I can see the differences. But that's a very unique part of you!
I actually did not know we were so direct! Super helpful video!
Nice video! As I am a ‘Dutch-born’ from Surinam parents (moved here back in 1975 due to Surinam independency) and Indian Ancestors, you brought some very interesting insights: as my origin is Asian and I am raised in the Netherlands I am thought to be ‘polite’ at home and grown up in an environment where everyone is direct…which means that I am as well direct and polite. Seems ideal, however in my experience most of the time I don’t understand the politeness of foreign people (‘negative reactions’ for instance), and at the other hand I experience direct feedback sometimes as very harsh…so your video really provided me some insights where it comes from! Thanks.
Thanks for sharing your experience as a Dutch Surinamese! Yeah I can relate to being brought up in "two cultures"-it can be challenging but very unique =)
8:20 I love to argue with professors! sometimes I don't immediately understand the point until we argue and he explains in bigger detail why I'm wrong. This is such a blessing cuz now I actually learn things😂
That’s true…you can truly learn things through a good debate