We have our own E92 M3s with the BMW bearings in, we're not going to be replacing them with these as we still stand by the fact that if correctly looked after like we will they're not going to suddenly fail. So don't suddenly think you need to do the service again - but if you haven't had it done yet, why settle for less than the best? That's something we try to live by with all the products we design and sell.
I find it amazing that Mahle out of nowhere, for an 18 year old engine, found it fitting to develop and release bearings. Sure, the S85 was made until 2010 and the S65 until 2013 but still, Mahle hit it out the park apparently.
But they kept on the original nominal clearance developed by BMW at 0,038mm. So I don't see too much difference from OEM 702/703 bearings. For me, BE bearings is still the gold standard.
@@UMORIEGAwrong unless you replaced main bearings too. All you did is to put even more wear and tear on mains. Specially cylinder #7 and 8. I had numerous customers here in Florida with failed bearings. Every single one of them swear they had rod bearings replaced in past 2 years. If you live in cold environment just install 400W Moroso heating pad at the bottom of your oil pan. This greater clearance rod bearings only job is flat out stupid
Finally someone with brains. Stay with factory size rod bearings unless you gonna pull engine out and replace main bearings too. Specially cylinder #7 and 8. Mahle bearings are awesome. Strongly recommend. Environment play huge role in this. Here in Florida I’m seeing M3’s with 200k having original rod bearings in OK condition even with very longs oil change intervals. Illinois, New York and up it’s totally different story. In that case I’m installing 400W Moroso heating pad at the bottom of the oil pan to prevent premature failure.
Salam Imran I have an F86 X6M with only a tune. It’s done 130,000KMs. What preventative maintenance should I be looking to do on the cars engine? Perhaps you can do a video on this as I’m sure alot of M5 owners would also appreciate this.
What do you guys think of 0w60 oil for the S85b50? I found this "Zeith Amber Ultimate SAE 0W60 API SN" and I'm curious if you would trust a brand like this?
Hello i live in france i am planning to change the bearings in November for my e63 v10 totalling 85000 kilometers. Where can i buy the bearings recommended on your video ? Do you sell them ? Thanks for your help!
Dry sump is a massive undertaking and one that really changes the entire scope of the car to something much more track focused. Not an area I have a huge amount of experience in, but I’m not sure how much it would change it as it’s not an oil starvation issue to the oil pump pickup.
@@EvolveAutomotive ahhh, fair enough thanks for answering, I'm currently looking at a massive deal of an M6 with a full-service history and less than 90k miles, (rod bearings and smg pump recently replaced less than 500 miles ago) and want to do a nice build with as good reliability as I can get out of it, cost isn't much of a problem since it's a long term project and a secondary vehicle, but I don't want to do useless mods.
@EvolveAutomotive that's not entirely true. I own a 2010 m6, and when we changed my rod bearing we found the vanos lines had started to leak. Either way, I still enjoyed your video. It's still very informing and I appreciate you making it. Great job
Which bolts did you use? I keep hearing about ARP. I like that they are simple to torque but I do not mind doing torque to yield on the OEM bolts if they are truly better.
I’ve owned 2 of these and currently have a manual. If you look on the engine and manual it clearly says change the oil every 1500 miles. Most don’t know that. In my opinion it’s one of the reasons why there seems to be issues with the engine. Most probably wait 3,000 - 5000 miles. Big mistake if they do. In my single clutch only had problems with the SMG failing because it’s not if it’s when. Just like a manual clutch. The problem was the BMW dealer didn’t know how to fix it. Sad story. Left bolts undone and all. Crazy. So it failed a second time. Took it to an Indy shop and ran perfect after that. Manual 6 speed has zero issues knock on wood. Searching for a manual M5. The moral of the story change your oil every 1000 miles on this massive oil burning car that runs super hot.
They have used their proprietary software (the same one they use for F1 bearing design) to accurately model the requirements of the bearing and specify the clearances based on that data. The S65/S85 ones are specced to 55 microns of clearance.
A motorsport derived part is not necessarily superior in a road going application. Race engine applications demand power and short term reliability, but not long term reliability. For example, a lot of race plain bearings will be single layer for outright strength, rather than the multi layer oem bearings designed to last a long time. Im not familiar with these Mahle bearings and theyre a reputable manufacturer, but anyone wanting to go this way should do their research to ensure they'll hold up in the long run.
In the pdf "Copyright MAHLE Engine Systems UK Ltd Technical Information Motorsport Engine Bearings" they talk about motorsport bearings with trimetal layers, so no worries there :).
But 10w is not thick, that was standard some generations ago! Though even if it is 10w60 it is the 60 that makes it thicker than say 40 despite 10w meaning cold viscosity.
I know a mecchanic who have an m3 e92 and he said that every 70-80k km you need to replace every bearing and i mean those on the block also because people replace only those over the oil pan leaving the main bearings untoched thinking oh i repleaced them so yeah..wrong those main bearings can spin and that's game over boys. Sreten on his channel (e39 restorations)talked about this issue and he showed on his m3 what can happen if those bearings are not replaced. Don't know if the v10 have the same issue tho.
Respectfully disagree with the need to change main bearings. That’s also a total engine disassembly to carry out. In all our years have never heard of an engine failing and the cause being a main bearing.
@EvolveAutomotive Definitely a thing on the S65, not sure about s85, maybe not since it's a longer crank. This just happened to Speed Academy's (UA-cam Channel) M3 and they had just had the rod bearings done 3,000 KM prior by an experienced shop. I forget what the determined culprit is, but believe it had something to do with extra tension from the oil pump chain tugging on one side of the crank. Also noticed no plastigage on those bearings during installation to check proper clearances, due to any bearing, crank, or rod variations.
I was under the impression that the OEM bearings get out of shape due to uneven wear from poor clearancing, BMW designed the factory bearing clearance too tight, and this is what ultimately is at fault for the high bearing wear. It seems to me the UK is lagging behind when it comes to providing a proper permanent solution for these engines. The issue with these engines was figured out back in 2015 when BE Bearings released a properly clearanced bearing for the S85/65 motors. Once these bearings are put in they are essentially lifetime like every other normal engine, no more 60k interval bearing changes because of BMW's poor engineering. I personally wouldn't trust a shop that doesn't put higher clearance rod bearings in these motors & instead opts for new OEM bearings, your just replacing a flawed item with a new flawed item and not addressing the issue at its core.
We’ve over the years discussed the issue at length with people who have a lot more knowledge on engine internals than we do, and of course without proper controlled scientific testing the true cause of the issue will never be known for certain, if it is even one factor (in our opinion it’s more likely many) As said in the video, if correctly looked after the OE bearings will last the lifetime of the vehicle, evidenced not only by our own 150k mile car but also a customer who has a car from new with over 230k miles on the original bearings. Mahle (actually Vandervall who were bought by Mahle) have huge experience in designing and manufacturing bearings, so with this bearing have not only carried out proper R&D which comes from processes learnt from F1/Endurance, but also then utilised their manufacturing process and it’s extremely tight tolerances and attention to detail to create what we believe to be the best bearing available for these cars. I mean they even go so far as to not stamp the numbers on the bearing but laser etch, as the stamping will cause raised spots on the bearing which then increase heat transfer in small areas which can attribute to increased bearing wear. Are we saying any other brand are bad? Of course not, because without proper first hand data from each one we aren’t in a position to say that. So if you have a personal preference of bearing material, clearance, coatings, brand, or even oil then go with that, it’s your car after all. We’re just sharing some knowledge that we have gained over the years from changing hundreds of not thousands of sets of bearings, and speaking to many experts within the industry.
@@EvolveAutomotive You can't use an example of one car, or even a few dozen, that go over 100k as evidence that all S65s will be ok at that mileage, many won't, and many have already failed before that mileage over the years, and that's due in part at least to clearance variances. Also, Mahle increased the clearance with these new bearings of theirs, so that lends more evidence to the clearance issue the OEM bearings have. That said, the later tin/alu/copper bearings fared less worse than earlier OEM lead/copper ones, I've not seen one of the tin/alu/copper ones worn through to copper yet (after looking at 500+ photos of OEM bearings pulled! lol), and yes they do have copper! That said, seeing as your own M3 got to 150k with the earlier bearings, I'm sure it'll be just fine on the later OEM ones. Oh and a bearing worn down to copper is not ok, even if it didn't fail and seize. Once the copper is exposed their is a risk of seizure (as per the bearing manufacturers bearing construction pdf papers).
@@ragnarlothbrok6324 Well, as I mentioned above it seems the later bearings are at a lesser risk of failure than the earlier ones, and certainly don't wear through the babbitt layer like the earlier ones. But they still don't wear at normal levels like a 'normal' engine would (high revving or not) and a small number have failed, if it were my car, with that mileage I'd change them anyway.
The problem isn't the rod bearings, the problem is the main bearings closest to the chain. The chain puts too much tension on the crankshaft making the main bearings closest to the chain work way harder. If you are thinking all you need to do is replace rod bearings to extend the life of your S65/S85 THINK AGAIN. You know how all these shops pull out the rod bearings and look at them on a piece of paper and say "oh yea its great we caught this in time" it's a bunch of bull. Have them take apart the engine completely down to the crankshaft and have them look at the main bearings closest to the chain, THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM! If you actually want your engine to last have them replace both your rod bearings AND your main bearings. Unfortunately you can't just drop the oil pan to replace your main bearings, you need the entire engine taken out and disassembled. BMW Quality!
That’s not true. My engine was rebuilt and that’s not the issue. You didn’t even mention the high pressure Vanos. Nice try to sound like an engineer. Let me know if you design engines
This is pointless just like using non-OEM bolts. 1) How many of these will ever see another 150k in their lifetime, and 2) If it does, what owner would NOT bother going back in, and end-up swapping these expensive shells out anyway?
@@UMORIEGA What the... no valid point to that statement. The discussion youre missing is - why the fk play with aftermarket overhyped bling when OEM has already proven to do a fantastic job for nearly 20yrs of repeatedly withstanding yet another new wannabe-racer owner, more cold floggings, track days, UA-cam burnouts etc., and its done all this for more miles/kilometres than the car will travel in its remaining life. In short, the ARP & BE sheep online are regurgitating complete nonsense. Is that clearer enough ?
@@Tony-l9g7y In what decade or century do 'you' predict E60 M5s will see their next 60k rollover? Never again is the correct answer for 99.9% of these old girls - And us owners respect them a great deal more than the cashed-up abusers, with full replacement warranty.
We have our own E92 M3s with the BMW bearings in, we're not going to be replacing them with these as we still stand by the fact that if correctly looked after like we will they're not going to suddenly fail. So don't suddenly think you need to do the service again - but if you haven't had it done yet, why settle for less than the best? That's something we try to live by with all the products we design and sell.
I find it amazing that Mahle out of nowhere, for an 18 year old engine, found it fitting to develop and release bearings. Sure, the S85 was made until 2010 and the S65 until 2013 but still, Mahle hit it out the park apparently.
We are in debt to whoever convinced them to!
But they kept on the original nominal clearance developed by BMW at 0,038mm. So I don't see too much difference from OEM 702/703 bearings. For me, BE bearings is still the gold standard.
@@UMORIEGAwhy?
@@UMORIEGAwrong unless you replaced main bearings too.
All you did is to put even more wear and tear on mains.
Specially cylinder #7 and 8.
I had numerous customers here in Florida with failed bearings.
Every single one of them swear they had rod bearings replaced in past 2 years.
If you live in cold environment just install 400W Moroso heating pad at the bottom of your oil pan.
This greater clearance rod bearings only job is flat out stupid
great advice , 77k miles on my m5 and three showing copper , get them done guys
What year?
I'm hoping to book my e92 m3 in for rod bearing replacement next week. Love the channel
We’re booking about a month ahead for rod bearing services! Thanks for the kind words
Finally someone with brains.
Stay with factory size rod bearings unless you gonna pull engine out and replace main bearings too.
Specially cylinder #7 and 8.
Mahle bearings are awesome.
Strongly recommend.
Environment play huge role in this.
Here in Florida I’m seeing M3’s with 200k having original rod bearings in OK condition even with very longs oil change intervals.
Illinois, New York and up it’s totally different story.
In that case I’m installing 400W Moroso heating pad at the bottom of the oil pan to prevent premature failure.
Salam Imran
I have an F86 X6M with only a tune. It’s done 130,000KMs. What preventative maintenance should I be looking to do on the cars engine? Perhaps you can do a video on this as I’m sure alot of M5 owners would also appreciate this.
Could you run a 5w-50 oil in the S85 after changing to higher tolerance bearings?
We have recently switched to 5W-50 Motul oil in our S65/85 rod bearing services.
What weight oil do you recommend for the s85 and s65?
colder weathers probably a 5w50
10w60 is perfectly fine, but you can also move to a 10w50 if you prefer.
Did mine at 243, km only one number 8 upper had copper. I used ARP great bearings.
How much longer do the mahle rod bearings last compared to OEM? Is it considered a permanent fix, or still a wear item like the OEM bearings?
Aston must eat, sleep & breath rod bearings!!😂
Still a nice V10 as a posed to a V8 makes a change for him!😂
Keep up the fantastic work guys👊
What's the best oil for these engines apart from 10w60?
5w 50
What do you guys think of 0w60 oil for the S85b50? I found this "Zeith Amber Ultimate SAE 0W60 API SN" and I'm curious if you would trust a brand like this?
Hello i live in france i am planning to change the bearings in November for my e63 v10 totalling 85000 kilometers. Where can i buy the bearings recommended on your video ? Do you sell them ? Thanks for your help!
Head to www.evolveautomotive.co.uk
Do you know if they make these for S54s? I need to do the bearing on my E46.
Nice Grand Seiko spring drive diver;)!
Hi Mr Imran, are the Mahle Rod bearings more expensive. Do you have good wear properties in mahle rod bearing cars? Thanks you in advance. 😊
Would a dry sump improve the reliability even more or is it just not worth it for a car that doesn't go to the track?
Dry sump is a massive undertaking and one that really changes the entire scope of the car to something much more track focused.
Not an area I have a huge amount of experience in, but I’m not sure how much it would change it as it’s not an oil starvation issue to the oil pump pickup.
@@EvolveAutomotive ahhh, fair enough thanks for answering, I'm currently looking at a massive deal of an M6 with a full-service history and less than 90k miles, (rod bearings and smg pump recently replaced less than 500 miles ago) and want to do a nice build with as good reliability as I can get out of it, cost isn't much of a problem since it's a long term project and a secondary vehicle, but I don't want to do useless mods.
Look after it and warm it up correctly and the rod bearings will be the lease of your worries with an S85 😅
Doesn't MAHLE make the factory pistons for the S85?
Did you also check and replace the vanos lines that also fail over time?
This car had it changed, only the earlier cars without the updated line need it done.
@EvolveAutomotive that's not entirely true. I own a 2010 m6, and when we changed my rod bearing we found the vanos lines had started to leak.
Either way, I still enjoyed your video. It's still very informing and I appreciate you making it. Great job
Mahle/Kneckt parts are always reliable :)
Which bolts did you use? I keep hearing about ARP. I like that they are simple to torque but I do not mind doing torque to yield on the OEM bolts if they are truly better.
We use ARP but OEM are also fine.
How are ACL bearings ?
I’ve owned 2 of these and currently have a manual. If you look on the engine and manual it clearly says change the oil every 1500 miles. Most don’t know that.
In my opinion it’s one of the reasons why there seems to be issues with the engine. Most probably wait 3,000 - 5000 miles. Big mistake if they do. In my single clutch only had problems with the SMG failing because it’s not if it’s when. Just like a manual clutch. The problem was the BMW dealer didn’t know how to fix it. Sad story. Left bolts undone and all. Crazy. So it failed a second time. Took it to an Indy shop and ran perfect after that.
Manual 6 speed has zero issues knock on wood. Searching for a manual M5. The moral of the story change your oil every 1000 miles on this massive oil burning car that runs super hot.
You forgot that carbon airbox....lol are you still using 10w60?
can we get a link for the rod bearings? im going crazy trying to find the link
www.evolveautomotive.co.uk/products/mahle-motorsport-conrod-bearings-bmw-e60-e61-m5-e63-e64-m6-s85?_pos=1&_psq=s85+rod&_ss=e&_v=1.0
What do you charge for this service?
www.evolveautomotive.co.uk/products/rod-bearing-replacement-bmw-e60-e61-m5-e63-e64-m6?_pos=2&_psq=m6+rod+be&_ss=e&_v=1.0
Is there a reason why people don't use coatings on these bearings like you would on the side of a piston?
The tolerances of rod bearings are much smaller than piston skirts.. pistons are quite loose in comparison, with the slack picked up with piston rings
Mahle is OEM good quality parts
Do they make them for the S54?
Currently only for S65/85, N/S55 and N/S63
Do they make these for the S63 engine?
They do yes, and it’s now what is in every Mr VANOS engine build
@@EvolveAutomotive Do they have increased clearance over the OEM ones? (like the BE bearings?).
They have used their proprietary software (the same one they use for F1 bearing design) to accurately model the requirements of the bearing and specify the clearances based on that data.
The S65/S85 ones are specced to 55 microns of clearance.
Mr who
A motorsport derived part is not necessarily superior in a road going application.
Race engine applications demand power and short term reliability, but not long term reliability. For example, a lot of race plain bearings will be single layer for outright strength, rather than the multi layer oem bearings designed to last a long time.
Im not familiar with these Mahle bearings and theyre a reputable manufacturer, but anyone wanting to go this way should do their research to ensure they'll hold up in the long run.
In the pdf "Copyright MAHLE Engine Systems UK Ltd Technical Information Motorsport Engine Bearings" they talk about motorsport bearings with trimetal layers, so no worries there :).
But 10w is not thick, that was standard some generations ago! Though even if it is 10w60 it is the 60 that makes it thicker than say 40 despite 10w meaning cold viscosity.
I know a mecchanic who have an m3 e92 and he said that every 70-80k km you need to replace every bearing and i mean those on the block also because people replace only those over the oil pan leaving the main bearings untoched thinking oh i repleaced them so yeah..wrong those main bearings can spin and that's game over boys.
Sreten on his channel (e39 restorations)talked about this issue and he showed on his m3 what can happen if those bearings are not replaced.
Don't know if the v10 have the same issue tho.
Respectfully disagree with the need to change main bearings. That’s also a total engine disassembly to carry out.
In all our years have never heard of an engine failing and the cause being a main bearing.
@EvolveAutomotive Definitely a thing on the S65, not sure about s85, maybe not since it's a longer crank. This just happened to Speed Academy's (UA-cam Channel) M3 and they had just had the rod bearings done 3,000 KM prior by an experienced shop. I forget what the determined culprit is, but believe it had something to do with extra tension from the oil pump chain tugging on one side of the crank. Also noticed no plastigage on those bearings during installation to check proper clearances, due to any bearing, crank, or rod variations.
I was under the impression that the OEM bearings get out of shape due to uneven wear from poor clearancing, BMW designed the factory bearing clearance too tight, and this is what ultimately is at fault for the high bearing wear.
It seems to me the UK is lagging behind when it comes to providing a proper permanent solution for these engines. The issue with these engines was figured out back in 2015 when BE Bearings released a properly clearanced bearing for the S85/65 motors. Once these bearings are put in they are essentially lifetime like every other normal engine, no more 60k interval bearing changes because of BMW's poor engineering.
I personally wouldn't trust a shop that doesn't put higher clearance rod bearings in these motors & instead opts for new OEM bearings, your just replacing a flawed item with a new flawed item and not addressing the issue at its core.
We’ve over the years discussed the issue at length with people who have a lot more knowledge on engine internals than we do, and of course without proper controlled scientific testing the true cause of the issue will never be known for certain, if it is even one factor (in our opinion it’s more likely many)
As said in the video, if correctly looked after the OE bearings will last the lifetime of the vehicle, evidenced not only by our own 150k mile car but also a customer who has a car from new with over 230k miles on the original bearings.
Mahle (actually Vandervall who were bought by Mahle) have huge experience in designing and manufacturing bearings, so with this bearing have not only carried out proper R&D which comes from processes learnt from F1/Endurance, but also then utilised their manufacturing process and it’s extremely tight tolerances and attention to detail to create what we believe to be the best bearing available for these cars.
I mean they even go so far as to not stamp the numbers on the bearing but laser etch, as the stamping will cause raised spots on the bearing which then increase heat transfer in small areas which can attribute to increased bearing wear.
Are we saying any other brand are bad? Of course not, because without proper first hand data from each one we aren’t in a position to say that. So if you have a personal preference of bearing material, clearance, coatings, brand, or even oil then go with that, it’s your car after all. We’re just sharing some knowledge that we have gained over the years from changing hundreds of not thousands of sets of bearings, and speaking to many experts within the industry.
Yea this, I put in a long detailed rely about this, but it got deleted :(
@@EvolveAutomotive You can't use an example of one car, or even a few dozen, that go over 100k as evidence that all S65s will be ok at that mileage, many won't, and many have already failed before that mileage over the years, and that's due in part at least to clearance variances.
Also, Mahle increased the clearance with these new bearings of theirs, so that lends more evidence to the clearance issue the OEM bearings have.
That said, the later tin/alu/copper bearings fared less worse than earlier OEM lead/copper ones, I've not seen one of the tin/alu/copper ones worn through to copper yet (after looking at 500+ photos of OEM bearings pulled! lol), and yes they do have copper!
That said, seeing as your own M3 got to 150k with the earlier bearings, I'm sure it'll be just fine on the later OEM ones.
Oh and a bearing worn down to copper is not ok, even if it didn't fail and seize. Once the copper is exposed their is a risk of seizure (as per the bearing manufacturers bearing construction pdf papers).
@@Assimilator1 I'm looking at a 2012 M3 with 89k miles, would either of you recommend changing the bearings?
@@ragnarlothbrok6324 Well, as I mentioned above it seems the later bearings are at a lesser risk of failure than the earlier ones, and certainly don't wear through the babbitt layer like the earlier ones. But they still don't wear at normal levels like a 'normal' engine would (high revving or not) and a small number have failed, if it were my car, with that mileage I'd change them anyway.
did my bearings at 90k miles and zero copper on any of the bearings.
Kumho tyres on a V10 M6?! 😱
Just got the pilot sport 4s on mine. Game changer.
PS4S really are such a brilliant tyre, what we always recommend for a road use car.
@@tinorosmg9374 Amazing tyre, transforms the car. Many miles to enjoy!
1 min in i knew i was out of $1500 ,can’t do this , wouldn’t want to try and mess up ,dealer service job 100% 😞
The problem isn't the rod bearings, the problem is the main bearings closest to the chain. The chain puts too much tension on the crankshaft making the main bearings closest to the chain work way harder. If you are thinking all you need to do is replace rod bearings to extend the life of your S65/S85 THINK AGAIN. You know how all these shops pull out the rod bearings and look at them on a piece of paper and say "oh yea its great we caught this in time" it's a bunch of bull. Have them take apart the engine completely down to the crankshaft and have them look at the main bearings closest to the chain, THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM! If you actually want your engine to last have them replace both your rod bearings AND your main bearings. Unfortunately you can't just drop the oil pan to replace your main bearings, you need the entire engine taken out and disassembled. BMW Quality!
That’s not true. My engine was rebuilt and that’s not the issue. You didn’t even mention the high pressure Vanos. Nice try to sound like an engineer. Let me know if you design engines
This is pointless just like using non-OEM bolts. 1) How many of these will ever see another 150k in their lifetime, and 2) If it does, what owner would NOT bother going back in, and end-up swapping these expensive shells out anyway?
Damaged crankshaft and metal shavings destroying your VANOS pump will make it 5 times more expensive than rod bearing job.
@@UMORIEGA What the... no valid point to that statement. The discussion youre missing is - why the fk play with aftermarket overhyped bling when OEM has already proven to do a fantastic job for nearly 20yrs of repeatedly withstanding yet another new wannabe-racer owner, more cold floggings, track days, UA-cam burnouts etc., and its done all this for more miles/kilometres than the car will travel in its remaining life. In short, the ARP & BE sheep online are regurgitating complete nonsense. Is that clearer enough ?
@@asecret900replace the bearings at the 50-60k interval and shut up 😂😂
@@Tony-l9g7y In what decade or century do 'you' predict E60 M5s will see their next 60k rollover? Never again is the correct answer for 99.9% of these old girls - And us owners respect them a great deal more than the cashed-up abusers, with full replacement warranty.
Whats worse? Rod bearing failure or Crank hub failure? Come on BMW...stop the rip off!
Crank hub you can get lucky and just need a retime and the hub changed, bearings go it’s already too late.
@EvolveAutomotive Does the Evolve stage 2 software keep the 02 monitor ready and leave the Catalyst monitor incomplete only?
Please email sales@evolveautomotive.com with what car you’re asking for and my colleague can help you, thank you
how are ACL bearings ?
Do they make this for the n54 engine?
They do not unfortunately.