Here are a couple of idea battlestation the Maquis insurrection and Dominion massacre of the Gamma colonists Both events play important role leading into the war. One introduction Dominion ruthless and other driving Cardassins into desperate to join the Dominion. Both acting like the Balkan wars a year before ww1.
I have to be honest, never before has the Romulan Navy ever felt not only so alive but also so fleshed out in detail and realistic. This feels like the culmination of all of your Romulan content that you've ever made across this channel. Holy shit
Elements of Inter Arma Enim Legis in how the conniving shifty ones (well more so) are actually on the side of the federation. The fact that yes the Dominion did massively overblow the figures but the Romulans still caused a vast amount of civilian casualties.
Indeed I'd say it is. I'm glad it has lived up to expectations. When I made raptors revenge in 2021. This was the culmination I had envisaged. Made all the bigger by the tomed incident and kithomer massacre.
That's almost Mongolian. One of the quotes involving Genghis Khan goes something like this, Victim " why are you doing this? We've done nothing to you." GK "If you had not sinned greatly, God would not have sent a punishment such as me"
This shows why the Romulans should never be tested or provoked, they unleash an unforgiving firestorm in such a way that no one would expect it These stories are so good that they have me wanting a mini series based off them
And this is the true terror of the Romulan Fleet. They might not be the biggest, or the most powerful, but they can strike anywhere, anytime, with such terror and force that you will question whether it was the right choice to fight them all. _"“Misdirection is the key to survival, never attack what your enemy defends, never behave as your enemy expects, and never reveal your true strength. If knowledge is power, then to be unknown is to be unconquerable.”_ A quote from Tebok, never more appropriate here. And once again, a *stunning* job on the music!!! Absolutely extraordinary how a simple piano can evoke such emotion. This is why I give you money!!! lol
“You can’t win a war through planetary bombardment” “It hasn’t been tried yet” This is such a GREAT reference to the British bombing commanders quote about bombing Germany in WW2.
Also the “climb mount edrin” reference to “climb mount nitaka” (if I’m spelling that right) for the Japanese code word for beginning the Pearl Harbor attack.
This reminds me: In one of the 'Shatner Verse' novels, it was stated that the 'Scimitar' was a prototype of a class of war-bird that had been designed specifically for waging war against the Dominion, in the Gamma Quadrant. The T-radiation weapon was for making quick work of Dominion-held worlds in the Gamma Quadrant.
That would be very like the Romulans. Building this in total secrecy for a war that everyone else was too busy licking their wounds to plan for. A first-strike weapon of complete lethality armed with a world-killer weapon and a cloaking device able to slip into the heart of the Dominion. Imagine the chaos if even one of these ships found the homeworld of the Founders. The entire great link reduced to a sea of dust in moments. It's awful, apocalyptic, and entirely within the capability of the Romulan mind to do such a thing.
This was one of my favorite episodes. You came out with alot of military doctrine, strategy and tactics etc. In past Romulan episodes and you showed it all in its most brutal and practical brilliant effectiveness only the romulans could do and justifie it to there own people and not care what klingons or federation people would think. In the end where the klingons, federation and of deadly course the cardassians peoples surprised they would do this. All there civilian governmenrs and militaries propaganda taught them this about the romulans since 2150s till 2370s lol. Even the Dominion where not surprised thats why they signed a non aggression pact treaty with them. Best episode ever ty for making this episode
Venomgeekmedia98 does a great job at adapting real history to Star Trek. A lot of this came from Malcolm Gladwell's "The Bomber Mafia" with quotes from Bomber Harris and Curtis LeMay.
_"They are fire, they are death."_ Quite the foreboding episode. Showing the desolation of Cardassian space late war, and how far the Romulans are willing to go. With this Apocalypse arc now over, I look forward to when you explore the last battles of the Dominion War. Jolan Tru.
Blood curdling. Honestly speaking, this is your best piece next to the Khitomer Incident. The voice acting, the music(was that Drachinifel's intro theme? Where can I get it??), the writing. Strategic planetary bombardment as a tactic of war, genocide on an interplanetary scale. Sent chills up my spine. "Climb Mt. Niitaka!"
Federation: In response to this, we can only quote the great sage of our distant history, known only as "QuackBang"... _It's never a war crime the first time._
The Romulans sure don't pull back their punches and their new warbirds are absolute beasts of a unit. Also it would be cool if the Nova was brought back out of mothballs.
More like secretly mocking them. After all the romulans want to keep klingons in their zoos. Plus the klingons think the romulans are underhanded and sneaky.
Honestly, I feel like the Klingons would dislike this kind of raid, finding them too sneaky and cowardly. The Klingons of course have no problem with raids in general, but I feel like they would not approve of the manner in which they were carried out
for good reason. The speech mentioning the places the Dominion bombed is modified from a speech given by the head of RAF Bomber Comand Sir Arthur Harris.
@@devinsweeting4978 You have not read the Bible until you have read it in its original Romulan. "They sown the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind." (Hosea 8:7) It's about God being really really really pissed off at Israel and bad things are about to happen.
Your opening statement is a great in universe justification for the Mogai/Valdore/Neorexan. An easy to build(smaller) expeditionary cruiser with advanced weaponry. You can build a lot, so dispersal of firepower is offset. It makes sense as a response to the Dominion War.
Zetrix seems like the sort of officer that despite being career military, failed to grasp some basic concepts of war. Like that of Combined arms or the fact that there is no such thing as the "WunderWaffe" or War winning "Knock out punch." or a single strategy that will bring ultimate quick victory. He ended up falling into a self deluded idea that his strategy was the only one that would work, and anything taking resources away from that effort was an "Impediment to Victory". "it would've totally worked if X hadn't gotten in the way." He doggedly stuck to an unproven concept, that long ago had been dismissed as unrealistic or unsuitable for the Romulan Navy based on the logic of "We haven't tried it hard enough, yet." Just one more Bombardment would do the trick and topple the Dominion forces. In reality he may have struck some important targets, but instead of keeping focus on hitting those harder, better and more frequently he wasted time, effort and resources striking civilian populations centres for little to no effect on the war. Ultimately I think that sort of narrow thinking and single minded mentality shows a weaker grasp of the concepts around higher level war fighting and a great inflexibility in command.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Cylon?? I doubt Mark Alaimo knew at that time he would be returning as a Cardassian later in TNG and then in DS9. Well Done Venom Geek, another fantastic tale of lore that in my opinion should be adopted as canon. 👍
two thoughts on this episode. one, i love seeing the Valdore/Nerexian have a prominant role. its my favorite romulan warship, only competition being the winged defender. they just scream "Romulan" to me, more than even the D'Deridex. it helps they are works of art as well as well built warships. good at your job and gorgeous too? rare feat. I love how well they and the D'Deridex pair. A powerful tank, able to take on multiple capital ships at one time and come out on top, and a fast skirmisher, with hard hitting rapid fire cannons to shred the escorts. Nerexian can punch a hole in a line by decimating smalller ships and racing through, causing chaos. and then the D'Deridex decloaks and slaughters anything dumb enough, or brave enough, to stand its ground also, the ending evokes that age old question. do the ends justify the means? is slaughtering thousands in cold, calculated terror justified if it saves millions of soldiers and civilians? well. thats not something im arrogant enough to think i can answer an excellent video
There is a balance between the ends justifying the means. Picard and his generation went overboard saying that it was never justified. Section 31 went overboard saying that always were. BTW the D'Deridex was the B-17/Lancaster/B-29. The Valdore/Neorexan/Mogai is the P-51.
The Diplomacy department the Dominion used really did a *marvelous* job in that war; using a narrative in the course of the war inside their foes' own homelands; that feat *alone* proves they had a very advanced state department... pretty much the *only* weapon they had that had any hope of checkmating the Romulan Rampages all over their regions in the course of the fight that was going on!
So the Romulans played General Sherman/RAF Bomber Command in the Dominion War. Cool. Fittingly enough, I listened to "The Plagues" from the Prince of Egypt soundtrack before I listened to your episode here. Somehow, it seemed appropriate...
Quick technical question. . . I noticed that some D'Deredix warbirds had additional paint schemes on some of the diagrams (like at marker 12:34 ). Does this signify a different type of warbird or are they unit markings?
So, I was just watching some Season 6 and 7 of DS9 then I see this upcoming. Awesome stuff. Would love to work with ya someday on this shit, just love it.
I *really* do like these warfare breakdowns of the mechanisms of wars like this that you've done- and seeing as it is fictional wars primarily; those're really useful as a means of studying the objective nature of these conflicts.
I love your work, especially all things Dominion War and the Battlespace series. Truth be told, I die a little bit each time you bite your tongue saying sick-th instead of six-th (6th)...hang in there .
So, Rugal Pa'dar was a *garrison commander* it seems, interesting breakdown of this lad's continuation of adventures, and almost assuredly he found himself with "new overlords", not Cardassians, but their new "masters" the Rihannsu Imperium in the fallout from the war.
Nice video, but the Romulans entered Dominion war around a year after the war started. They saw what was happening and had so much extra time to prepare for war, and ramp up production. I don't believe the Romulans wouldn't have ramped up production at their shipyards, and pushed up the production of D'Deridex class warbirds. There shouldn't be any delays at this point of the war.
Yeah, Sayarin was *Humilitated* by that turn of events by being that outmaneuvered. Come to think of it; it stands to reason that in DS9, Odo appeared to have adopted a Jem'Hadar lad at one point- very good breakdown of these things that show produced therein.
Sayarin was cunning alright, and uncannily brilliant as a man; but he himself proved to be by and large outclassed by his foes; basically renegade Vulcan colonists. And almost universally colonists tend to be way more warlike: the reason is necessity... the cultures are very different.
Zerix's report of how he concluded these to be legit targets *is* sound: these guys weren't merely bystanders, they were actively in some way or another involved in the war's very nature by providing direct material support. Even the farming world would be a legit target, as if you collapse your foe's ability to feed his people, he cannot any longer wage effective resistance- thus effectively ending the war; plus soldiers and those who work to support them realy do need to get food and energy, and agriculture really is an industrial task almost all over the globe; with the notable exception of the USA, and that's due to way better land for that regarding the weather and climate, as well as the vital for national defense industry raw materials being pretty close to where the population lives. The USA has been profoundly blessed by geography if nothing else.
10:29 “they’re victories did not belong to them and by extension did not belong to Romulus” What is that guy smoking? I can only presume their victory wouldn’t have even been _possible_ without Romulan involvement. Those victories are as much a credit to Romulus as to the Klingons or the Federation!
Oh, and the parts about the after-action-reports by Zerix is an interesting Command and Control problem intrinsic to this; as there were already reports of problems with command structure by politicians in that war; now multiply that, and you realize just how baffling the whole situation really would be to the front-line soldiers and commanders in the field about whom they answer to- that alone is completely confusing.
Oh, snap! The demise of the *specialists* the *workers* is *actually* in the calculus of warfare: way more devastating than mere loss of equipment. So the near-final attack is truly the most devastating of them all.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The Romulans sound just like the Americans in regards to Vietnam, Iraq 2, Afghanistan and their plans for dealing with the SMO in Ukraine...hahahhahahaha...
@@ChairmanMo American logistics were always very good. In the later wars you mention the Issue was the attempt to hold territory without providing any civilian assistance. Mid way through Vietnam a policy of covering up bad press was adopted due to the unpopularity of the war. Which meant that the military had free reign, which meant that it did not coordinate well with the civilian governments of the region.
His father played a key role in the 2372 revolution. And was spared by dukat. His son would have been conscripted. He probably pulled some strings to keep him off the frontlines.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, that is a sound observation; and those events in Star Trek history are really something. Course, Cardassia really is a state that accomplished what the Marxists *here* on Earth categorically failed to accomplish, go figure.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, that's logical if nothing else; and also: Cardassian ethos, even with his Bajoran adoptive family having raised him: the mentality of a man devotes himself to serving his neighbors as he is able to is a common thread in *both* societies ironically enough. There is a famous Cardassian novel, really a mythology that's also remarkably while solid, truly proof that their state and society is at core *Marxist* beyond imagining; that being "The Never-ending sacrifice"; well, the whole question that it behooves is it would ask any Cardassian civics student in say high-school to "define the state as in this novel", especially seeing as a whole slew of different states existed in their homeworld's history and over the presuming centuries if not millions of years since their presumably mammal-like-reptile ancestors were likely transplanted from Permian Earth to Cardassia, likely a tribe of Dimetrodons for all we know, from their anatomy. Seeing that, governments come and go, so they're clearly merely *part* of the state, but not the state in and of itself, neighbors do, as do individuals, so neither really is; it *could* be read as a study and argument for the enlightened self-interest of patriotism of all things- I'd say the "state" in their concept is "your neighbor, whomever he is"- I could be dead wrong, but it stands to logic- as if their focus of ultimate loyalty is that, they'd have to accurately and infallibly *define* it as well, to be credible as agents of their society.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, and from the books on the fall of Bajor, that trait actually makes a LOT of sense; Dukat himself was at the time a young Glinn, and was something of a member of their aristocracy; what with his Pa being a *judge* in their country.
We don't really know the results in Romulus capital of Ki Baratan, but Adm. Zerix's report to Earth darn-near caused all manner of diplomatic infighting and a total breakdown of the alliance they'd made- with the Terrans, the head species of the Federation, pracitally screaming at the Romulans that they have loosed a murdering *psychopath* into their foes with no checks and balances to his actions he selected and given that *monster* a blank check to act up as he sees fit on the *civilian* population of their enemies: the Terrans/Humans did have a real bad taste about that kind of conduct in war. It'd darn near bring him up on war-crimes trials in Earth's history; and may well have done *just exactly that*; especially if his boss, their emperor, deems it way more important to avert another war than to protect a morally loose canon at his own beck and call- which he may well have decided just exactly that! I can see a whole dialogue fanfic about that one involving subspace radio communiques: "No, you're *going to* face the charges they issue to you, and only *then* will you return to us, Adm. for your choices in how to conduct yourself in this war!" a livid Emperor Shiarkiek replies in *writing* no less to the admiral of his fleet that bombarded civilian targets! As in "We joined the war to prevent ourselves from having to negotiate with *less* odds of retaining our independence, you idiot; loosing *That* kind of tactics is likely to cause a war *within* this alliance at the *worst* time for us!" or thereabouts, knowing that the death of the senator that they used as the *official* cause of the war is merely an excuse for going to war; a "story" his government sold to their citizenry to get them to back the war's cause.
I wonder if you're going to do a breakdown of Shinzon's campaigns in this war; as well as his coup attempt; I think you *did* touch on his rising movement, a kind of fallout from the type of "Marius's reforms" that they employed, thus leading to one of the finest fleets in the *galaxy*, a force that I'm convinced wrecked not only the Dominion, fully subjugating their foe there as a puppet state, and likely also turning Cardassia into a "Romulan Close Ally" (a type of near-completely-subjugated-nationstate), and also then turned their own forces on the Borg, ending their threat to the galaxy pretty much forever. Course their "Marius" was "Suran" in Nemesis. Part of my sources is the beginning of the questionable "Picard" series, which hints that an alarmingly high number of the Rihannsu's slave-races are really Borg; and Hugh/3of5 himself seems to have in the chaos siezed command of a cube and headed to the Terix system and promptly surrendered to the Romulans in exchange for some degree of protection, seems as though in that case the Borg had fallen into utter meltdown as Shinzon's hunter-groups ran down their fleet and assets. Plus the Romulans are really an advanced predator-state; as their model, the Eagle, symbolizes, and in their case, it is accidental honesty; and the Borg at that time had melted down, added to that, Shinzon would've wanted to unite the fleet and earn their loyalty; so that kind of an adventure would fit quite nicely; as well as his country was by far the one that came out of the Dominion War the porportional strongest.
I make no apologies for what was done in war We did not ask for it He was brought upon us and when it came time to show our metal we gave better than what we got we make no apologies for what must have been a tough time for everyone on both sides but remember we did not ask for this war It was thrust upon us. and we were not going to lose.
The assault on Lemedia Prime really would have far-reaching consequences: it would trigger a famine in the Cardassian state, which may well have been the overall aim of that operation by their foes; as that'd disable their ability to sustain the war.
Now Saburo Sakai himself in WW2 observes that casualty reports are universally vastly exagerted; he said to cut the enemy's reported losses by at least half, if not to a *third* right off the bat; the reason is that from the official working in a desk-job; you receive reports, but what you do NOT know is how many of your men are shooting at the same man when he falls- that kind of battlefield chaos is really the cause of this; plus wars are universally confusing- and competent enemies learn to take advantage of that. The Dominion, to their credit as a competent foe: did analyze their more dominant foe's psychology, and discerned a distinct distaste for causing civilian deaths- they'd happen, no doubt there, but the distaste for that kind of fruit of war really does bespeak of the problems involved in war. And on another topic, I *do* like your analysis of the logistics of this war; your analyses of these wars is *really* extremely useful!
Now for *that* kind of war doctrine, the Combined Orders, mostly extremely advanced fast-attack ships, are *very* good quality weapon systems for the fight they were in, so of course they'd be priority assets for the political units of this faction.
Admiral and likely also Senator Latant himself was woefully mistaken about his foes: the Breen made short work of him and his fleet, if he survived, he'd be relegated to a desk job somewhere insignificant, a disgrace to his state for his demolishion at their hands at Chintoka by their forces.
Well that was horrifying and traumatic. And amzingly well written and presented. The Federation Alliance is more than willing to fight dirty when it has to in this war. Justifiably so - a massive number of war crimes were committed by the Dominion and the Cardassians to them. They hit bcak as they had been hit. Morality has to fall back to pragmatism at times.
There is a reason Adm Picard said that they were no longer Starfleet. He was right. They were no longer the Starfleet he grew up with from 2327-2367. The Borg and the Dominion had shattered those delusions. Picard is the Haywood Hansel of Star Trek. Zetrix is Bomber Harris. Sisko is Curtis LeMay.
Yeah, what you had was virtually the loss of an entire generation in the Dominion Wars when it came to personnel, vastly increased military spending and large numbers of vessels with all their scientific equipment removed and replaced with more weapons. The fleet was likely gutted (even with all the new construction) and likely hundreds, if not more ships lost (given we don't have a full estimate of Starfleet's total size in active capital ships over the period). Then there's the gutting of Utopia Planitia and Mars coinciding with the disintegration of the Romulan Empire, and I'd honestly guess the Klingons aren't in a lot better shape with the losses they took over the conflict either. So all those body blows taken within a relatively short time period makes Starfleet a lot more conservative and isolationist while the other major powers of the Alpha Quadrant go on the retreat as well. And I'm guessing that post Picard it's going to be even worse with the massive infiltration of the Borg, the near genocide of Earth, and pretty much every single ship that had the slightest technology from the Borg completely ad totally gutted.
Morality doesn't win wars against enemies with no morals. How do you think nations centuries ago would have felt dealing with enemies like the Huns, Mongols, or Aztecs on their doorstep? Do you think they were concerned with out to put down this threat morally and with the least amount of casualties or just surviving?
The Breen Thots did a marvelous job of demolishing the frontline troops, they struck Natchev in the back, running her into am ambush and ensuring her annihilation in the course of the campaign; but their attack at Earth was most remarkably inept in picking the proper solution to their foes. I could see a discussion in Central Command involving Founder Lovok replying that if the Breen knew *anything* of their foes they attacked they'd never in their wildest nightmares by anywhere near that *stupid*; as all that's going to do is set humanity, especially from the region, a part of the single superpower of that planet that initiated the use of nuclear weapons, flat-out berserk and fully *genocidal*; and those guys absolutely have a taste for killing enemy *officers* in the first few hours of any engagement; the officers really are primary targets to kill, the baseline soldiers are actually seen as upstanding, but the officers, universally as aristocrats, are seen by them to be *vermin* and what, he'd ask Weyoun, would they think of anything regarded by their foes as a "god"? Those they're absolutely *lethal* to; and the proof is the seminal event in the primary faith of that world: the death of the only deity they had! Talk about *psychopathic* personality traits! The Breen really were kind of *dumb* in their choices of how to open the war!
I could actually see one of the Vorta kind of complaining to Odo about their design; seeing as especially if said Vorta is an engineer, how's he going to study schematics if he is darn-near-blind? Seems like a serious design flaw if you ask me; and if they actually *do* believe the Founders are their gods, as they claim, it *does* stand to reason that complaints about physiological malfunctions would be sent to His office... so I could easily see Odo having to work in genetic engineering at that- plus as a "god-figure" (while he is very right to refuse that level), he is darn-near as close to the *real deal* as they'd be anywhere near likely to meet! Especially with his seeming disgust for being served and definite manly preference for serving others... it is amazing in that regard.
I think the Kligons would have been ok with the operation. The Federation, not so much, however, would have gone along with it. It definitely helped change the outcome of the war.
"The needs of the many out way the needs of the few." As long as the Romulans could make the case for shortening the war and saving lives in the long run- the Federation would have gone along with it. But they wouldn't have been happy about it.
The Romulans were allies of the Federation not subjects or member words. They had no right to dictate Romulan strategy that didn't involve joint operations anymore than they had over the Klingons.
Pinned post for Q&A
Why can I not pronounce ‘Order’ more naturally?
Is this a parody of Dresden?
Did you get inspiration from Star Trek Online for brown version of the Norexan/Mogai class and also I enjoyed the episode
Here are a couple of idea battlestation
the Maquis insurrection and
Dominion massacre of the Gamma colonists
Both events play important role leading into the war. One introduction Dominion ruthless and other driving Cardassins into desperate to join the Dominion. Both acting like the Balkan wars a year before ww1.
What is the difference between the Numbered Legions like the 4th, 6th, and 9th Legions, and the Named Fleets like the Firebirds and the Black Legion?
I have to be honest, never before has the Romulan Navy ever felt not only so alive but also so fleshed out in detail and realistic. This feels like the culmination of all of your Romulan content that you've ever made across this channel. Holy shit
Elements of Inter Arma Enim Legis in how the conniving shifty ones (well more so) are actually on the side of the federation. The fact that yes the Dominion did massively overblow the figures but the Romulans still caused a vast amount of civilian casualties.
Indeed I'd say it is. I'm glad it has lived up to expectations. When I made raptors revenge in 2021. This was the culmination I had envisaged. Made all the bigger by the tomed incident and kithomer massacre.
Admiral Zerix:
"Dear The Dominion,
If your God meant for you to win,
why did the make you so flammable?
Curious."
That's almost Mongolian.
One of the quotes involving Genghis Khan goes something like this,
Victim " why are you doing this? We've done nothing to you."
GK "If you had not sinned greatly, God would not have sent a punishment such as me"
Checkmate founders
-Turning Point Romulan Star Empire
Admiral torpedo Zerix
Romulans: "we can't win a war just with orbital bombardment"
Zetrix: "Maybe *you* can't"
Apparently they had a T'bomber thAris. :)
I didn't know General LeMay was a Romulan.
This shows why the Romulans should never be tested or provoked, they unleash an unforgiving firestorm in such a way that no one would expect it
These stories are so good that they have me wanting a mini series based off them
I would KILL for a Romulan v. Dominion battle on screen!!
It was on an episode of DS9 . Easy to understand why you missed it , it only lasted about ten seconds .
yes but don't kill me. I wanna see it too
And this is the true terror of the Romulan Fleet. They might not be the biggest, or the most powerful, but they can strike anywhere, anytime, with such terror and force that you will question whether it was the right choice to fight them all. _"“Misdirection is the key to survival, never attack what your enemy defends, never behave as your enemy expects, and never reveal your true strength. If knowledge is power, then to be unknown is to be unconquerable.”_ A quote from Tebok, never more appropriate here.
And once again, a *stunning* job on the music!!! Absolutely extraordinary how a simple piano can evoke such emotion. This is why I give you money!!! lol
“You can’t win a war through planetary bombardment”
“It hasn’t been tried yet”
This is such a GREAT reference to the British bombing commanders quote about bombing Germany in WW2.
Also the “climb mount edrin” reference to “climb mount nitaka” (if I’m spelling that right) for the Japanese code word for beginning the Pearl Harbor attack.
Actually the romulans did do a planetary bombardment over alpha centauri 3 during the Earth and Roman War
I imagine the Romulans could silence any criticism from the Federation with just one word..."Tomed."
This reminds me: In one of the 'Shatner Verse' novels, it was stated that the 'Scimitar' was a prototype of a class of war-bird that had been designed specifically for waging war against the Dominion, in the Gamma Quadrant. The T-radiation weapon was for making quick work of Dominion-held worlds in the Gamma Quadrant.
That would be very like the Romulans. Building this in total secrecy for a war that everyone else was too busy licking their wounds to plan for. A first-strike weapon of complete lethality armed with a world-killer weapon and a cloaking device able to slip into the heart of the Dominion.
Imagine the chaos if even one of these ships found the homeworld of the Founders. The entire great link reduced to a sea of dust in moments. It's awful, apocalyptic, and entirely within the capability of the Romulan mind to do such a thing.
- "We fought over Felton Prime."
- "Over Felton Prime ?"
- "I'll never get over Felton Prime."
This was one of my favorite episodes. You came out with alot of military doctrine, strategy and tactics etc. In past Romulan episodes and you showed it all in its most brutal and practical brilliant effectiveness only the romulans could do and justifie it to there own people and not care what klingons or federation people would think. In the end where the klingons, federation and of deadly course the cardassians peoples surprised they would do this. All there civilian governmenrs and militaries propaganda taught them this about the romulans since 2150s till 2370s lol. Even the Dominion where not surprised thats why they signed a non aggression pact treaty with them. Best episode ever ty for making this episode
Glad it lived up to expectations
Venomgeekmedia98 does a great job at adapting real history to Star Trek. A lot of this came from Malcolm Gladwell's "The Bomber Mafia" with quotes from Bomber Harris and Curtis LeMay.
10:34 has got to be one of the most masterfully constructed Romulan quotes I’ve ever heard
_"They are fire, they are death."_
Quite the foreboding episode. Showing the desolation of Cardassian space late war, and how far the Romulans are willing to go.
With this Apocalypse arc now over, I look forward to when you explore the last battles of the Dominion War. Jolan Tru.
The Romulans truly went far on the bar, and the Cardassians will remember it for a very long time.
"They simply did it because they could."
It is well that war is so terrible, else we become too fond of it - *General Robert Lee*
"War is cruelty, and the crueler it is the sooner it will be over" --William Tecumseh Sherman
So much wisdom from the great General LEE!
@@thomasjmitchell2306 Probably the one thing I would ever agree with from the racist, slave-holding sack of Sh@t
Strategic STRIKE! -Romulan Imperial Navy Admiral Blessed
Or praetor blessed if you've seen him in I Claudiaus
This is what the Romulan fleet was originally made for. Cloak and Dagger.
Blood curdling. Honestly speaking, this is your best piece next to the Khitomer Incident. The voice acting, the music(was that Drachinifel's intro theme? Where can I get it??), the writing. Strategic planetary bombardment as a tactic of war, genocide on an interplanetary scale. Sent chills up my spine. "Climb Mt. Niitaka!"
The theme is legionnaire by Scott Buckley. I think I suggested it to him when his old one started getting copystriked
Dominion: OMG look what the Romulans are doing!
Federation: Who and what?
Federation: "We've had to deal with these fuckers for a hundred plus years, shut the hell up!"
Federation: In response to this, we can only quote the great sage of our distant history, known only as "QuackBang"... _It's never a war crime the first time._
Germany: "shotguns are inhumane"
Entente: "coughs in mustard gas"
Of course the romulans probably also threatened to reveal section 31 publicy.
I bet they would have been like umm on second thought what raids?
Don't worry, Federation would cover for Dominion' war crimes as well.
The Romulans sure don't pull back their punches and their new warbirds are absolute beasts of a unit. Also it would be cool if the Nova was brought back out of mothballs.
I imagine the Klingon High Council secretly cheering the Romulans when they found out about the raids.
Martok watching for who does because they aren't Klingon enough.
More like secretly mocking them. After all the romulans want to keep klingons in their zoos. Plus the klingons think the romulans are underhanded and sneaky.
@@poil8351 I think a Romulan would be deeply offended if a Klingon praised their honour.
Honestly, I feel like the Klingons would dislike this kind of raid, finding them too sneaky and cowardly. The Klingons of course have no problem with raids in general, but I feel like they would not approve of the manner in which they were carried out
Good video. The romulan plan reminded me of the RAF & US AIR FORCE WW2 bombing raids of Europe!
for good reason. The speech mentioning the places the Dominion bombed is modified from a speech given by the head of RAF Bomber Comand Sir Arthur Harris.
@@devinsweeting4978 You have not read the Bible until you have read it in its original Romulan. "They sown the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind." (Hosea 8:7) It's about God being really really really pissed off at Israel and bad things are about to happen.
Outstanding video!
Don’t fuck with the combination of Valdore and D’deridex.
Nasty…
Nasty pair.
Great stuff Mike!
Thanks!
ya know, feel this is a fuck around and find out, you screw around with rolumans you get the sneaky murder birds?
These audio dramas keep getting better. I've already listened to it twice and I'm sure I'll listen to again later. Thanks VGM.
Your opening statement is a great in universe justification for the Mogai/Valdore/Neorexan. An easy to build(smaller) expeditionary cruiser with advanced weaponry. You can build a lot, so dispersal of firepower is offset. It makes sense as a response to the Dominion War.
Zetrix seems like the sort of officer that despite being career military, failed to grasp some basic concepts of war. Like that of Combined arms or the fact that there is no such thing as the "WunderWaffe" or War winning "Knock out punch." or a single strategy that will bring ultimate quick victory.
He ended up falling into a self deluded idea that his strategy was the only one that would work, and anything taking resources away from that effort was an "Impediment to Victory". "it would've totally worked if X hadn't gotten in the way."
He doggedly stuck to an unproven concept, that long ago had been dismissed as unrealistic or unsuitable for the Romulan Navy based on the logic of "We haven't tried it hard enough, yet."
Just one more Bombardment would do the trick and topple the Dominion forces. In reality he may have struck some important targets, but instead of keeping focus on hitting those harder, better and more frequently he wasted time, effort and resources striking civilian populations centres for little to no effect on the war.
Ultimately I think that sort of narrow thinking and single minded mentality shows a weaker grasp of the concepts around higher level war fighting and a great inflexibility in command.
Indeed. Look at what Tomalok achieved. Putting aside his pride. And considor how the war was truly ended.
Excellent episode! I know these Battle Space episodes take a lot of work to produce, but I hope this isn't the last one we see for the Dominion War.
Maybe one last. But the apocalypse miniseries is now complete.
Voice Actor: Mark Strong
www.fiverr.com/s/5rrLK8Q
Cardassian Renders by: www.deviantart.com/ryselle-chan
Firebirds by: www.deviantart.com/syckoson
For a second I thought you pulled in some high end celebrity talent.
@ 3:30 Hey, that's Gul Dukat dressed as a Romulan!!!
🤣
maybe he was a changling/cylon all along
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Cylon??
I doubt Mark Alaimo knew at that time he would be returning as a Cardassian later in TNG and then in DS9.
Well Done Venom Geek, another fantastic tale of lore that in my opinion should be adopted as canon. 👍
He dipped his toes in intelligence, but preferred being a Gul.
two thoughts on this episode. one, i love seeing the Valdore/Nerexian have a prominant role. its my favorite romulan warship, only competition being the winged defender. they just scream "Romulan" to me, more than even the D'Deridex. it helps they are works of art as well as well built warships. good at your job and gorgeous too? rare feat. I love how well they and the D'Deridex pair. A powerful tank, able to take on multiple capital ships at one time and come out on top, and a fast skirmisher, with hard hitting rapid fire cannons to shred the escorts. Nerexian can punch a hole in a line by decimating smalller ships and racing through, causing chaos. and then the D'Deridex decloaks and slaughters anything dumb enough, or brave enough, to stand its ground
also, the ending evokes that age old question. do the ends justify the means? is slaughtering thousands in cold, calculated terror justified if it saves millions of soldiers and civilians?
well. thats not something im arrogant enough to think i can answer
an excellent video
There is a balance between the ends justifying the means. Picard and his generation went overboard saying that it was never justified. Section 31 went overboard saying that always were.
BTW the D'Deridex was the B-17/Lancaster/B-29. The Valdore/Neorexan/Mogai is the P-51.
That Romulan admiral was trippn'. Red Valdores are dope!
The Diplomacy department the Dominion used really did a *marvelous* job in that war; using a narrative in the course of the war inside their foes' own homelands; that feat *alone* proves they had a very advanced state department... pretty much the *only* weapon they had that had any hope of checkmating the Romulan Rampages all over their regions in the course of the fight that was going on!
Love this series
its never a war crime..the first time. nice work Venom!
So the Romulans played General Sherman/RAF Bomber Command in the Dominion War. Cool.
Fittingly enough, I listened to "The Plagues" from the Prince of Egypt soundtrack before I listened to your episode here. Somehow, it seemed appropriate...
Yes, thanks Venom.
Yaaasssss more dominion war content , im stoked
3 Armies that can work together make all their weakness go away. Beware : Working together only last so long. No time to paint is Ok with me/ Love it
Bravo to Venom and team 👏👏👏👏
Quick technical question. . . I noticed that some D'Deredix warbirds had additional paint schemes on some of the diagrams (like at marker 12:34 ). Does this signify a different type of warbird or are they unit markings?
Unit markings. They are the flag warbirds of the legion.
Simple enough, thanks!
So, I was just watching some Season 6 and 7 of DS9 then I see this upcoming. Awesome stuff. Would love to work with ya someday on this shit, just love it.
I *really* do like these warfare breakdowns of the mechanisms of wars like this that you've done- and seeing as it is fictional wars primarily; those're really useful as a means of studying the objective nature of these conflicts.
It has been a joy to see your scriptwriting and plotting develop over the years. Thank you, as ever
Glad you enjoyed it. Its been quite the journey
Wrong Agent venomgeekmedia IS a temporal Romulan Spy
Thank you for another episode. Your awesome my friend
never realized before now how similar at least looking the Romulans and Romans are (and the name)
I can't overstate how excited I was to see u had a new dominion war video venom geek
God bless you sir.
This is up there with Hunting the Hutet. Damn good stuff.
YES THE FIREHAWKS GET TO BE ESCORTS!!!!! WOOOOOOOO!!!!!
yep in a new pink livery
@@venomgeekmedia9886 would be interesting if the Romulans did bring their Novas and their old Strike Cruisers back out of mothballs.
@@merafirewing6591 firehawk being smaller helps it fit. And uniquely it's upper nacelles can be switched with variable weapon modules
@@venomgeekmedia9886 so where would the old Novas be sent to?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I’m assuming all the new warbird and escort sprites are available to members only? 😔
I love your work, especially all things Dominion War and the Battlespace series. Truth be told, I die a little bit each time you bite your tongue saying sick-th instead of six-th (6th)...hang in there .
I like the ending poem. That was a baddass ending to a badass video. Thank you thank you!
Damn man you did a hell of a job with this, and all the other that were involved too. Great as always to see you still making videos!
As usual, very well put together drawing parallels.
So, Rugal Pa'dar was a *garrison commander* it seems, interesting breakdown of this lad's continuation of adventures, and almost assuredly he found himself with "new overlords", not Cardassians, but their new "masters" the Rihannsu Imperium in the fallout from the war.
Nice video, but the Romulans entered Dominion war around a year after the war started. They saw what was happening and had so much extra time to prepare for war, and ramp up production.
I don't believe the Romulans wouldn't have ramped up production at their shipyards, and pushed up the production of D'Deridex class warbirds. There shouldn't be any delays at this point of the war.
This was fantastic and riveting. Thank you. Truly cinematic.
Thanks for the tactics!
Wow! Fantastic episode. You've really stepped up your game!
Wonderful and entertaining video. Videos like this give me hours of information to daydream about. Thanks !
Me: Melting ice caps, why dose this feel so familiar?
Eclasic Gorge vandia during reign of blood: :)
Yeah, Sayarin was *Humilitated* by that turn of events by being that outmaneuvered.
Come to think of it; it stands to reason that in DS9, Odo appeared to have adopted a Jem'Hadar lad at one point- very good breakdown of these things that show produced therein.
Sayarin was cunning alright, and uncannily brilliant as a man; but he himself proved to be by and large outclassed by his foes; basically renegade Vulcan colonists.
And almost universally colonists tend to be way more warlike: the reason is necessity... the cultures are very different.
como sempre arrasando nos vídeos e detalhes sobre as batalhas parabéns pelo ótimo trabalho
Outstanding!
Could you do a video on the ships of the son'a?
Perhaps. The sona are an interesting set of ideas
@@venomgeekmedia9886 first of all the battleship they use is ridiculously large and powerful mainly because of it's isolyctic burst torpedoes
@@sethcourtemanche5738 intrestingly different sources have refered to them as battleships or battlecruisers. i suspect the latter to be more accurate
Zerix's report of how he concluded these to be legit targets *is* sound: these guys weren't merely bystanders, they were actively in some way or another involved in the war's very nature by providing direct material support.
Even the farming world would be a legit target, as if you collapse your foe's ability to feed his people, he cannot any longer wage effective resistance- thus effectively ending the war; plus soldiers and those who work to support them realy do need to get food and energy, and agriculture really is an industrial task almost all over the globe; with the notable exception of the USA, and that's due to way better land for that regarding the weather and climate, as well as the vital for national defense industry raw materials being pretty close to where the population lives.
The USA has been profoundly blessed by geography if nothing else.
10:29 “they’re victories did not belong to them and by extension did not belong to Romulus”
What is that guy smoking? I can only presume their victory wouldn’t have even been _possible_ without Romulan involvement.
Those victories are as much a credit to Romulus as to the Klingons or the Federation!
That was a really great video!!! Loved it!
The name reminds me of "Four Leaf" Taybak from Tropic Thunder😂😂😂👍
Excellent!
Been waiting for this one
Oh, and the parts about the after-action-reports by Zerix is an interesting Command and Control problem intrinsic to this; as there were already reports of problems with command structure by politicians in that war; now multiply that, and you realize just how baffling the whole situation really would be to the front-line soldiers and commanders in the field about whom they answer to- that alone is completely confusing.
Oh, snap! The demise of the *specialists* the *workers* is *actually* in the calculus of warfare: way more devastating than mere loss of equipment. So the near-final attack is truly the most devastating of them all.
Tabok vs Dukat would be hilarious from a fourth wall perspective
The Romulans seem to forget that logistics is a key part of war.
Probably because they never planned to fight a war lasting more than a few months.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The Romulans sound just like the Americans in regards to Vietnam, Iraq 2, Afghanistan and their plans for dealing with the SMO in Ukraine...hahahhahahaha...
@@ChairmanMo American logistics were always very good. In the later wars you mention the Issue was the attempt to hold territory without providing any civilian assistance. Mid way through Vietnam a policy of covering up bad press was adopted due to the unpopularity of the war. Which meant that the military had free reign, which meant that it did not coordinate well with the civilian governments of the region.
FANTASTIC.
Fantastic job!
Loving it so far 😍
Wow super great job!!!
Excellent video
Interesting career choice by Pa'dar's son at that- that's a nifty continuation fanwork if you ask me.
His father played a key role in the 2372 revolution. And was spared by dukat. His son would have been conscripted. He probably pulled some strings to keep him off the frontlines.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, that is a sound observation; and those events in Star Trek history are really something.
Course, Cardassia really is a state that accomplished what the Marxists *here* on Earth categorically failed to accomplish, go figure.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, that's logical if nothing else; and also: Cardassian ethos, even with his Bajoran adoptive family having raised him: the mentality of a man devotes himself to serving his neighbors as he is able to is a common thread in *both* societies ironically enough.
There is a famous Cardassian novel, really a mythology that's also remarkably while solid, truly proof that their state and society is at core *Marxist* beyond imagining; that being "The Never-ending sacrifice"; well, the whole question that it behooves is it would ask any Cardassian civics student in say high-school to "define the state as in this novel", especially seeing as a whole slew of different states existed in their homeworld's history and over the presuming centuries if not millions of years since their presumably mammal-like-reptile ancestors were likely transplanted from Permian Earth to Cardassia, likely a tribe of Dimetrodons for all we know, from their anatomy.
Seeing that, governments come and go, so they're clearly merely *part* of the state, but not the state in and of itself, neighbors do, as do individuals, so neither really is; it *could* be read as a study and argument for the enlightened self-interest of patriotism of all things- I'd say the "state" in their concept is "your neighbor, whomever he is"- I could be dead wrong, but it stands to logic- as if their focus of ultimate loyalty is that, they'd have to accurately and infallibly *define* it as well, to be credible as agents of their society.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, and from the books on the fall of Bajor, that trait actually makes a LOT of sense; Dukat himself was at the time a young Glinn, and was something of a member of their aristocracy; what with his Pa being a *judge* in their country.
*Do it again, bomber Zerix!*
This is just the best!!!!
THese new Romulan ships looks almost like the Valdore Class.
Or the Mogai or Neorexan
We don't really know the results in Romulus capital of Ki Baratan, but Adm. Zerix's report to Earth darn-near caused all manner of diplomatic infighting and a total breakdown of the alliance they'd made- with the Terrans, the head species of the Federation, pracitally screaming at the Romulans that they have loosed a murdering *psychopath* into their foes with no checks and balances to his actions he selected and given that *monster* a blank check to act up as he sees fit on the *civilian* population of their enemies: the Terrans/Humans did have a real bad taste about that kind of conduct in war.
It'd darn near bring him up on war-crimes trials in Earth's history; and may well have done *just exactly that*; especially if his boss, their emperor, deems it way more important to avert another war than to protect a morally loose canon at his own beck and call- which he may well have decided just exactly that!
I can see a whole dialogue fanfic about that one involving subspace radio communiques: "No, you're *going to* face the charges they issue to you, and only *then* will you return to us, Adm. for your choices in how to conduct yourself in this war!" a livid Emperor Shiarkiek replies in *writing* no less to the admiral of his fleet that bombarded civilian targets!
As in "We joined the war to prevent ourselves from having to negotiate with *less* odds of retaining our independence, you idiot; loosing *That* kind of tactics is likely to cause a war *within* this alliance at the *worst* time for us!" or thereabouts, knowing that the death of the senator that they used as the *official* cause of the war is merely an excuse for going to war; a "story" his government sold to their citizenry to get them to back the war's cause.
Ahhhh….strategic STRIKE is back on the menu….
I wonder if you're going to do a breakdown of Shinzon's campaigns in this war; as well as his coup attempt; I think you *did* touch on his rising movement, a kind of fallout from the type of "Marius's reforms" that they employed, thus leading to one of the finest fleets in the *galaxy*, a force that I'm convinced wrecked not only the Dominion, fully subjugating their foe there as a puppet state, and likely also turning Cardassia into a "Romulan Close Ally" (a type of near-completely-subjugated-nationstate), and also then turned their own forces on the Borg, ending their threat to the galaxy pretty much forever.
Course their "Marius" was "Suran" in Nemesis.
Part of my sources is the beginning of the questionable "Picard" series, which hints that an alarmingly high number of the Rihannsu's slave-races are really Borg; and Hugh/3of5 himself seems to have in the chaos siezed command of a cube and headed to the Terix system and promptly surrendered to the Romulans in exchange for some degree of protection, seems as though in that case the Borg had fallen into utter meltdown as Shinzon's hunter-groups ran down their fleet and assets.
Plus the Romulans are really an advanced predator-state; as their model, the Eagle, symbolizes, and in their case, it is accidental honesty; and the Borg at that time had melted down, added to that, Shinzon would've wanted to unite the fleet and earn their loyalty; so that kind of an adventure would fit quite nicely; as well as his country was by far the one that came out of the Dominion War the porportional strongest.
I make no apologies for what was done in war We did not ask for it He was brought upon us and when it came time to show our metal we gave better than what we got we make no apologies for what must have been a tough time for everyone on both sides but remember we did not ask for this war It was thrust upon us. and we were not going to lose.
This would have been legendary if they put this into ds9 episodes
The assault on Lemedia Prime really would have far-reaching consequences: it would trigger a famine in the Cardassian state, which may well have been the overall aim of that operation by their foes; as that'd disable their ability to sustain the war.
It seems that the romulans were fans of the Galactic Empire and Base Delta Zero.
They did em before it was cool.
Now Saburo Sakai himself in WW2 observes that casualty reports are universally vastly exagerted; he said to cut the enemy's reported losses by at least half, if not to a *third* right off the bat; the reason is that from the official working in a desk-job; you receive reports, but what you do NOT know is how many of your men are shooting at the same man when he falls- that kind of battlefield chaos is really the cause of this; plus wars are universally confusing- and competent enemies learn to take advantage of that.
The Dominion, to their credit as a competent foe: did analyze their more dominant foe's psychology, and discerned a distinct distaste for causing civilian deaths- they'd happen, no doubt there, but the distaste for that kind of fruit of war really does bespeak of the problems involved in war.
And on another topic, I *do* like your analysis of the logistics of this war; your analyses of these wars is *really* extremely useful!
Now for *that* kind of war doctrine, the Combined Orders, mostly extremely advanced fast-attack ships, are *very* good quality weapon systems for the fight they were in, so of course they'd be priority assets for the political units of this faction.
Admiral and likely also Senator Latant himself was woefully mistaken about his foes: the Breen made short work of him and his fleet, if he survived, he'd be relegated to a desk job somewhere insignificant, a disgrace to his state for his demolishion at their hands at Chintoka by their forces.
Well that was horrifying and traumatic. And amzingly well written and presented. The Federation Alliance is more than willing to fight dirty when it has to in this war. Justifiably so - a massive number of war crimes were committed by the Dominion and the Cardassians to them. They hit bcak as they had been hit. Morality has to fall back to pragmatism at times.
There is a reason Adm Picard said that they were no longer Starfleet. He was right. They were no longer the Starfleet he grew up with from 2327-2367. The Borg and the Dominion had shattered those delusions. Picard is the Haywood Hansel of Star Trek. Zetrix is Bomber Harris. Sisko is Curtis LeMay.
Yeah, what you had was virtually the loss of an entire generation in the Dominion Wars when it came to personnel, vastly increased military spending and large numbers of vessels with all their scientific equipment removed and replaced with more weapons.
The fleet was likely gutted (even with all the new construction) and likely hundreds, if not more ships lost (given we don't have a full estimate of Starfleet's total size in active capital ships over the period).
Then there's the gutting of Utopia Planitia and Mars coinciding with the disintegration of the Romulan Empire, and I'd honestly guess the Klingons aren't in a lot better shape with the losses they took over the conflict either.
So all those body blows taken within a relatively short time period makes Starfleet a lot more conservative and isolationist while the other major powers of the Alpha Quadrant go on the retreat as well.
And I'm guessing that post Picard it's going to be even worse with the massive infiltration of the Borg, the near genocide of Earth, and pretty much every single ship that had the slightest technology from the Borg completely ad totally gutted.
Morality doesn't win wars against enemies with no morals. How do you think nations centuries ago would have felt dealing with enemies like the Huns, Mongols, or Aztecs on their doorstep? Do you think they were concerned with out to put down this threat morally and with the least amount of casualties or just surviving?
The Breen Thots did a marvelous job of demolishing the frontline troops, they struck Natchev in the back, running her into am ambush and ensuring her annihilation in the course of the campaign; but their attack at Earth was most remarkably inept in picking the proper solution to their foes.
I could see a discussion in Central Command involving Founder Lovok replying that if the Breen knew *anything* of their foes they attacked they'd never in their wildest nightmares by anywhere near that *stupid*; as all that's going to do is set humanity, especially from the region, a part of the single superpower of that planet that initiated the use of nuclear weapons, flat-out berserk and fully *genocidal*; and those guys absolutely have a taste for killing enemy *officers* in the first few hours of any engagement; the officers really are primary targets to kill, the baseline soldiers are actually seen as upstanding, but the officers, universally as aristocrats, are seen by them to be *vermin* and what, he'd ask Weyoun, would they think of anything regarded by their foes as a "god"? Those they're absolutely *lethal* to; and the proof is the seminal event in the primary faith of that world: the death of the only deity they had!
Talk about *psychopathic* personality traits! The Breen really were kind of *dumb* in their choices of how to open the war!
I could actually see one of the Vorta kind of complaining to Odo about their design; seeing as especially if said Vorta is an engineer, how's he going to study schematics if he is darn-near-blind? Seems like a serious design flaw if you ask me; and if they actually *do* believe the Founders are their gods, as they claim, it *does* stand to reason that complaints about physiological malfunctions would be sent to His office... so I could easily see Odo having to work in genetic engineering at that- plus as a "god-figure" (while he is very right to refuse that level), he is darn-near as close to the *real deal* as they'd be anywhere near likely to meet! Especially with his seeming disgust for being served and definite manly preference for serving others... it is amazing in that regard.
I think the Kligons would have been ok with the operation. The Federation, not so much, however, would have gone along with it. It definitely helped change the outcome of the war.
Sisko would have been ok with it. Picard not so much.
"The needs of the many out way the needs of the few." As long as the Romulans could make the case for shortening the war and saving lives in the long run- the Federation would have gone along with it. But they wouldn't have been happy about it.
The Romulans were allies of the Federation not subjects or member words. They had no right to dictate Romulan strategy that didn't involve joint operations anymore than they had over the Klingons.
Federation condemns?! Please, section 31 is far more cruel. Human cruelty is something even the founders should fear. Great video thank you