Oof, Opera's brutal. It's so fugitive, it *literally* faded in a day when I exposed it to the sun. It's so fugitive, it makes Rose Madder Genuine look like an earth color by comparison.
Right? I used it once thinking, "What's the BFD? It's got Quinacridone Magenta in it." Yeah, then I used it and the Quinacridone Magenta survived, but the color change was so dramatic, I felt like I just watched a badly abridged performance of Carmen.
SoulKeever its quite funny that the manufacturers deny that it fades that fast... several manufacturers told me that it would not fade in the first year... even when exposed yet we all kno and seen how fast it can fade quite drastically... It should not be on the market or they should find another pigment or dye thats fade resistant...
Great video and informed comments. I suggest never using Alizarin Red. It is always fugitive. There are a few Permanent Alizarin Reds with better lightfastness but I never use them.
For the listener's information ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials. All the ASTM standards have very detailed methods for testing materials, including the test for lightfastness. Any tubes of paint that are labeled an in conformance with an ASTM standard are all tested the same. The standard is readily obtained from the ASTM website. So, in conclusion, any test conducted in accordance with a stated ASTM standard, no matter what the company, is identical to each other.
Not true, the PIGMENTS are tested by the ASTM, not the paint. A paint manufacturer can mill the pigment finer to get a more vibrant color, but it will make it significantly less lightfast. Also, brighteners/fillers also affect the lightfastness of a paint, as they reflect more light on to a smaller quantity of pigment. Mixing with a white pigment has the same effect. Also, manufacturers do not have to state when white is added in the pigment information.
I occasionally use a lightfast 2 paint. I just don't use any actual fugitive pigments and nothing worse than a 2. I'm pretty comfortable with that system, especially since so many red and yellow pigments fall at about a 2 lightfastness. (Or I'll be comfortable using whatever the best and second best lightfast ratings are for that particular brand.) Sure, use the most lightfast paint you can, but I don't think it's irresponsible to use something in the 50 to 100 year category, especially if you take other preventative measures to prevent fading.
Alizarin Crimson has been maligned for so many years now for being fugitive. However, if you only use it for practicing or for digitizing the painting it is part of, do you care that it won't be the same color 20-50 years from now? BTW, close replacements are just that, and it is more noticeable in oil paint medium.
Im wondering sometimes if the old masters cared that much about lightfastness. I mean its great that we are in position to know the rate that some pigments fade, but I feel that the significance of it, is blown out of proportion by the companies that use it as a marketing tool. Pigmentation of a paint is really important because it affects the way it behaves, but lightfastness.. most people using those paints are amateurs that want to have a creative hobby and only a small percentage is actually capable to use them in a way that will produce good artwork. The majority are just splashing around and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they enjoy their time. But do they need ''immortal'' colors? I dont think so.
Oh they cared! The hunt for better pigments that wouldn't fade is quite the story. This search for the non-fading but still bright colour is also a big factor in varnishes and the alchemy-like tinkering with additives in oil painting. Back in the day some pigments were also reactive, so you had to isolate them to keep them from fading or turning grey or whatever. But your bigger point is very true. Most all paints from well known manufacturers today are far more lightfast than even the best artists had 100 years ago.
Yeah I mean, it depends on the canon of "masters" you're working with. Not everything from the renaissance survived equally well... Meanwhile if you talk to some contemporary illustrators I'm sure you'll find plenty whose working process was basically agnostic to the survivability of original art. Depends on what you want: Cool looking pictures at whatever cost? (I hear you can make pretty good reproductions these days!) or Cool looking pictures that your grandchildren will see? Not everyone has the same goals out of art so I think part of the discussion rests on what your fundamental assumptions are for the work.
The fact that watercolor artists continue to sell artwork made with fugitive pigments is a big reason why watercolor paintings have such a low value compared to oil paintings. The art market believes that watercolor paintings don't last, and that's because of unscrupulous artists who don't care about lightfastness and don't inform the buyers of the lightfastness of the paints they chose to use either, and obviously don't care about the painting destroying after they've sold them.
Thank you for this public service video, lol. Kidding aside, this was very useful information. In fact I stopped the video halfway through to check lightfastness of all of my various-manufacturer paints.
Bev Roberts i use another site instead of handprint... www.artiscreation.com oys more complete and better laid out and the pigments in colors. it contains beside the pigment number the ci common name. common, historic and marketing names. ci constitition number. chemical composition. color description + longterm effe ts of light. opacity. Lightfastness. oil absorbtion. toxicity. side notes. its the only site I've been using for several years. it also got very good reference library about pigments, pigment making. Health and safety and ASTM specifications.
I recently wrote Schmincke to ask about the pigments used in their Sap Green and how lightfast it is. Apparently they still have stock of PY 153, which I thought was long gone, and strangely enough they are still using it to make their Sap Green. (I would be selling it as a limited edition single pigment!) They sent me an interesting chart that translates between the 8-level Blue Wool system, their stars, and the ASTM ratings. It's rather confusing. Additionally, even though PY 153 and PG 7 both have great lightfastness, the Sap Green lightfastness is only three stars which is considered "fair" in their 5-star system (5 stars is excellent). They told me this results from their own lightfastness tests. They also included an interesting brochure showing how they conduct their own tests on the roof of their building.
Please tell me, can colors/paints be made lightfast with UV varnish or with varnish in general? And if so, can it be done to watercolor paint, gouache and acrylics? Because especially in acrylics snd gouache I noticed that quite some colors I use are not extremely lightfast but I cant afford to switch my whole palette as long as my paints are still full.
It makes me sad when I see kids doing the most beautiful artwork in Bic Crystal biro pen which is the least lightfast of every medium I know. I wanted to test fluorescent acrylic paints which I've heard are highly "fugitive" so I put some squiggles in my window, along with samples of every pen i could find. The ballpoint ink was fading literally within days and after 5 weeks the black ballpoints has faded lighter than pencil while every fluorescent colour continued to glow with the exception of violet which now looks a pastel purply shade. I'm an illustrator so most of my art is created to be photographed but I think it's ridiculous not to use fully lightfast and permanent colours when they're no more expensive. Mostly I work with Indian ink (or something equivalent to that: waterproof black ink) and I use acrylics for colour. That's my mark on the world and I want my marks to be longlasting!🎉 It doesn't matter if most things will stay in a sketchbook. I want to know that I can stick something on a wall, put it on exhibition if needs be or sell it. And for that you need proper artist's quality colours!🖌️✍️💜💓🐦🍏💛🧡❣️
Terrific and helpful video, as always! So... how do you test for light-fastness? Testing for a few days reaction to light is easy enough, but I don't think I will be around to determine whether a paint fades after 50 years vs 100 years:-)
Paint out a strip with a masstone and a tint, along with a similar strip of Alizarin Crimson. Cut the sample in half, and store one half in a drawer. Then place the other piece in a place where it'll receive UV radiation, but still be protected from weather. A cheap picture frame or some car windows work well enough. However long it takes for the Alizarin to fade, double that amount of time. After that, compare your results to the strip in the drawer.
You just paint two samples, and keep one sample out in sunlight for a few months, and compare the difference. That's probably the simplest way to test. Some colours will fade faster and some won't. Some companies have lighting that they turn on 24hrs a day to test for lightfastness.
do you have a list of alternatives you use for the fugitive colours that you use in Daniel Smith range ? Love your art work in the journal by the way. I could not catch the orange you have replaced. Transulscent Orange replaces which colour ?
Thanks for the video Teoh. Very informative. I wondered about watercolour fixative spray. I always use it after I have finished a painting just to make sure the colours will last longer. What is your opinion on fixatives?
You have to get those UV coated fixative for the best protection. Here's a related article www.jacksonsart.com/blog/2014/08/29/fixatives-are-not-all-the-same/
It has a high tinting strength. In masstone it is almost black. It makes beautiful lilac colours when mixed with white. It is transparent so it is perfect for glazing.
It's actually rated at "I", or maximum lightfast through independent testing. Check Handprint.com. Winsor and Newton's version and DS' Carbazole have been tested to have maximum lightfast properties. A few brands are rated slightly less, however. But if you stick with those two brands, you should be perfectly safe.
I wonder if there's an underlying system of rating for the German manufacturers 🤔 There's so many rules and norms over here (there's a good reason we're known for being somewhat pedantic and rule-abiding after all 😅) , I'd be totally surprised if there weren't any at all 😂
Very informative, but here in Europe (and I'm sure in many other places as well) there is quite a difference between lightfast and non lightfast watercolor paints in pricing. In general, better quality lightfast paints tend to be priced higher. If you want the best, you pay the most.
Yes, I thought the same - but then that pricing difference comes at a very low price point, you won't actually find the very fugitive paints in the studio series from well known manufacturers like Talens, Schmincke, W&N etc. It is in the very cheap no-name paints that this becomes can become an issue. Perversely many of the better manufacturers only offer PR 83 and mixes like opera in their more expensive pro series.
ALL Winsor Newtons artist grade watercolors are rated Permanent or Extremely Permanent except for three : Alizarin Crimson, Rose Madder Genuine and Opera Rose. Those can be replaced by Permanent Alizarin Crimson and Permanent Rose
Patrick Nap got paintings done with Winsor Newton between 1985-1987 hanging on my wall with no visable fading. wonder if the current paints would last that well???
@@teohyc even if I did, so what? I mean, anybody who's not a retard would know that if you put ANYTHING in direct sunlight, it's gonna fade eventually, so...why worry about it?
Alizarin Crimson is my favorite reds and unfortunately its the most fugitive colors on any brand. It gives me the best results when I use it with naples yellow to get skin tones.
Oof, Opera's brutal. It's so fugitive, it *literally* faded in a day when I exposed it to the sun. It's so fugitive, it makes Rose Madder Genuine look like an earth color by comparison.
Wow. I've not used Opera before and now I'll be sure to avoid it. LOL
Right? I used it once thinking, "What's the BFD? It's got Quinacridone Magenta in it." Yeah, then I used it and the Quinacridone Magenta survived, but the color change was so dramatic, I felt like I just watched a badly abridged performance of Carmen.
LOL, now you make me want to try it, just to be able to see it :-)
+Tona Aspsusa Palmen Do it, and start the test at Habanera. It'll be gone by Votre Toast!
SoulKeever its quite funny that the manufacturers deny that it fades that fast... several manufacturers told me that it would not fade in the first year... even when exposed yet we all kno and seen how fast it can fade quite drastically... It should not be on the market or they should find another pigment or dye thats fade resistant...
Great video and informed comments. I suggest never using Alizarin Red. It is always fugitive. There are a few Permanent Alizarin Reds with better lightfastness but I never use them.
I've learned so much from you! Thank you for being so thorough with how you present information and explain topics like this
Thanks. I try to make videos with info I wished I knew when I started using watercolour. ( ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ )
Teoh Yi Chie I think that's the perfect way to think of it :)
For the listener's information ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials. All the ASTM standards have very detailed methods for testing materials, including the test for lightfastness. Any tubes of paint that are labeled an in conformance with an ASTM standard are all tested the same. The standard is readily obtained from the ASTM website. So, in conclusion, any test conducted in accordance with a stated ASTM standard, no matter what the company, is identical to each other.
+Tom Brueggemann Thanks for the info
Not true, the PIGMENTS are tested by the ASTM, not the paint. A paint manufacturer can mill the pigment finer to get a more vibrant color, but it will make it significantly less lightfast. Also, brighteners/fillers also affect the lightfastness of a paint, as they reflect more light on to a smaller quantity of pigment. Mixing with a white pigment has the same effect. Also, manufacturers do not have to state when white is added in the pigment information.
Teoh, that was very informative and helpful. Thank you for the hint on using earth tones a a guide to lightfastness ratings.
+Esther Sugai Thanks 😁
Thanks. You made that simple enough for me to understand
Excellent and thorough review as always. Much appreciated!!
Thank you \ (•◡•) /
I occasionally use a lightfast 2 paint. I just don't use any actual fugitive pigments and nothing worse than a 2. I'm pretty comfortable with that system, especially since so many red and yellow pigments fall at about a 2 lightfastness. (Or I'll be comfortable using whatever the best and second best lightfast ratings are for that particular brand.) Sure, use the most lightfast paint you can, but I don't think it's irresponsible to use something in the 50 to 100 year category, especially if you take other preventative measures to prevent fading.
heytogrey most greens 2 as well... Violet usually 3 or *...
Thanks for this video now I learn about the lightfast even I don't have prof watercolor yet
Alizarin Crimson has been maligned for so many years now for being fugitive. However, if you only use it for practicing or for digitizing the painting it is part of, do you care that it won't be the same color 20-50 years from now? BTW, close replacements are just that, and it is more noticeable in oil paint medium.
Very helpful...thanks, Teoh!
+Serena Lewis Thanks 😁
Thank you, Teoh.
Im wondering sometimes if the old masters cared that much about lightfastness. I mean its great that we are in position to know the rate that some pigments fade, but I feel that the significance of it, is blown out of proportion by the companies that use it as a marketing tool. Pigmentation of a paint is really important because it affects the way it behaves, but lightfastness.. most people using those paints are amateurs that want to have a creative hobby and only a small percentage is actually capable to use them in a way that will produce good artwork. The majority are just splashing around and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they enjoy their time. But do they need ''immortal'' colors? I dont think so.
Oh they cared! The hunt for better pigments that wouldn't fade is quite the story. This search for the non-fading but still bright colour is also a big factor in varnishes and the alchemy-like tinkering with additives in oil painting. Back in the day some pigments were also reactive, so you had to isolate them to keep them from fading or turning grey or whatever.
But your bigger point is very true. Most all paints from well known manufacturers today are far more lightfast than even the best artists had 100 years ago.
Yeah I mean, it depends on the canon of "masters" you're working with. Not everything from the renaissance survived equally well... Meanwhile if you talk to some contemporary illustrators I'm sure you'll find plenty whose working process was basically agnostic to the survivability of original art.
Depends on what you want:
Cool looking pictures at whatever cost? (I hear you can make pretty good reproductions these days!)
or Cool looking pictures that your grandchildren will see? Not everyone has the same goals out of art so I think part of the discussion rests on what your fundamental assumptions are for the work.
The fact that watercolor artists continue to sell artwork made with fugitive pigments is a big reason why watercolor paintings have such a low value compared to oil paintings. The art market believes that watercolor paintings don't last, and that's because of unscrupulous artists who don't care about lightfastness and don't inform the buyers of the lightfastness of the paints they chose to use either, and obviously don't care about the painting destroying after they've sold them.
This is really helpful. Thanks so much!
Thank you for the explanation ❤️
Here is another video that taught me something ! Thanks Teoh 😉
Thanks ~(˘▾˘~)
Thank you for this public service video, lol. Kidding aside, this was very useful information. In fact I stopped the video halfway through to check lightfastness of all of my various-manufacturer paints.
Bev Roberts i use another site instead of handprint... www.artiscreation.com oys more complete and better laid out and the pigments in colors. it contains beside the pigment number the ci common name. common, historic and marketing names. ci constitition number. chemical composition. color description + longterm effe ts of light. opacity. Lightfastness. oil absorbtion. toxicity. side notes. its the only site I've been using for several years. it also got very good reference library about pigments, pigment making. Health and safety and ASTM specifications.
so happy to see your videos in my subscriptions :)
good work, thank you, very helpful
Excellent info, more often than not my phone battery is going flat so I can't look up what the info is online lol :)
I recently wrote Schmincke to ask about the pigments used in their Sap Green and how lightfast it is. Apparently they still have stock of PY 153, which I thought was long gone, and strangely enough they are still using it to make their Sap Green. (I would be selling it as a limited edition single pigment!) They sent me an interesting chart that translates between the 8-level Blue Wool system, their stars, and the ASTM ratings. It's rather confusing. Additionally, even though PY 153 and PG 7 both have great lightfastness, the Sap Green lightfastness is only three stars which is considered "fair" in their 5-star system (5 stars is excellent). They told me this results from their own lightfastness tests. They also included an interesting brochure showing how they conduct their own tests on the roof of their building.
The answer to the question starts at 8:53
Please tell me, can colors/paints be made lightfast with UV varnish or with varnish in general?
And if so, can it be done to watercolor paint, gouache and acrylics?
Because especially in acrylics snd gouache I noticed that quite some colors I use are not extremely lightfast but I cant afford to switch my whole palette as long as my paints are still full.
I've not seen any scientific test on how effective those UV varnish or fixatives are. Maybe you can check out this article. bit.ly/uv-varnish
It makes me sad when I see kids doing the most beautiful artwork in Bic Crystal biro pen which is the least lightfast of every medium I know. I wanted to test fluorescent acrylic paints which I've heard are highly "fugitive" so I put some squiggles in my window, along with samples of every pen i could find. The ballpoint ink was fading literally within days and after 5 weeks the black ballpoints has faded lighter than pencil while every fluorescent colour continued to glow with the exception of violet which now looks a pastel purply shade.
I'm an illustrator so most of my art is created to be photographed but I think it's ridiculous not to use fully lightfast and permanent colours when they're no more expensive. Mostly I work with Indian ink (or something equivalent to that: waterproof black ink) and I use acrylics for colour. That's my mark on the world and I want my marks to be longlasting!🎉 It doesn't matter if most things will stay in a sketchbook. I want to know that I can stick something on a wall, put it on exhibition if needs be or sell it. And for that you need proper artist's quality colours!🖌️✍️💜💓🐦🍏💛🧡❣️
good topic
Terrific and helpful video, as always! So... how do you test for light-fastness? Testing for a few days reaction to light is easy enough, but I don't think I will be around to determine whether a paint fades after 50 years vs 100 years:-)
Paint out a strip with a masstone and a tint, along with a similar strip of Alizarin Crimson. Cut the sample in half, and store one half in a drawer. Then place the other piece in a place where it'll receive UV radiation, but still be protected from weather. A cheap picture frame or some car windows work well enough. However long it takes for the Alizarin to fade, double that amount of time. After that, compare your results to the strip in the drawer.
You just paint two samples, and keep one sample out in sunlight for a few months, and compare the difference. That's probably the simplest way to test. Some colours will fade faster and some won't. Some companies have lighting that they turn on 24hrs a day to test for lightfastness.
Thanks for all the helpful comments. That test is easy enough. Still not sure about 50 year vs 100 year testing:-)
400 hours of exposure should ascertain whether it'll change in 50 years of indoor lighting
do you have a list of alternatives you use for the fugitive colours that you use in Daniel Smith range ? Love your art work in the journal by the way. I could not catch the orange you have replaced. Transulscent Orange replaces which colour ?
Thanks for the video Teoh. Very informative. I wondered about watercolour fixative spray. I always use it after I have finished a painting just to make sure the colours will last longer. What is your opinion on fixatives?
You have to get those UV coated fixative for the best protection. Here's a related article
www.jacksonsart.com/blog/2014/08/29/fixatives-are-not-all-the-same/
Dioxazine (Carbazole) Violet has a lightfast rating of II in most brands. I don't understand why it is such a popular color.
It has a high tinting strength. In masstone it is almost black. It makes beautiful lilac colours when mixed with white. It is transparent so it is perfect for glazing.
It's actually rated at "I", or maximum lightfast through independent testing. Check Handprint.com. Winsor and Newton's version and DS' Carbazole have been tested to have maximum lightfast properties. A few brands are rated slightly less, however. But if you stick with those two brands, you should be perfectly safe.
I wonder if there's an underlying system of rating for the German manufacturers 🤔 There's so many rules and norms over here (there's a good reason we're known for being somewhat pedantic and rule-abiding after all 😅) , I'd be totally surprised if there weren't any at all 😂
Very informative, but here in Europe (and I'm sure in many other places as well) there is quite a difference between lightfast and non lightfast watercolor paints in pricing. In general, better quality lightfast paints tend to be priced higher. If you want the best, you pay the most.
Pricing can be affected by rarity of the pigment used too. There are also different series of paint, 1 to 4, with the latter more expensive.
Yes, I thought the same - but then that pricing difference comes at a very low price point, you won't actually find the very fugitive paints in the studio series from well known manufacturers like Talens, Schmincke, W&N etc.
It is in the very cheap no-name paints that this becomes can become an issue.
Perversely many of the better manufacturers only offer PR 83 and mixes like opera in their more expensive pro series.
Thanks Teoh ✨ FYI - Your audio seems a bit blown-out (some scratchy distortion).
Thanks. Not sure what's wrong with my mic. Maybe it's not plugged in properly. Argh
Teoh... It might be my sound card causing it... I'm noticing it in other places too. Sorry.
Be nice if someone could provide a full list of paints that are lightfast
You can find lightfast information from handprint.com/ and from Jane Blundell website.
What about fixative? Does it help to add lightfastness? This topic made me worry to sell my work with an elevate Price...
Fixative doesn't really affect lightfast as the light can still pass through. It's best to use lightfast paint for artworks you want to sell.
@@teohyc thank you very much
What about framing them under the UV glass or plexiglass?
is windsor & newton the best watercolor brand?
+Maggy Frog Not sure if it is the best. There are many good brands. Schminke, Daniel Smith, Mission Gold, Winsor Newton, M Graham
How can we do our own testing on 100 years?
+AMIR AMIR The companies using lighting equipment that's switched on all day and night to test.
mercury contained?
There's no mercury. That's extremely toxic.
So... a rating using numbers, lower is better. Using 'stars', more is better. Great :-)
ALL Winsor Newtons artist grade watercolors are rated Permanent or Extremely Permanent except for three : Alizarin Crimson, Rose Madder Genuine and Opera Rose. Those can be replaced by Permanent Alizarin Crimson and Permanent Rose
Patrick Nap got paintings done with Winsor Newton between 1985-1987 hanging on my wall with no visable fading. wonder if the current paints would last that well???
I sure they would. What I posted is direct from Winsor Newton. You can go to the Winsor Newton web site and go to the technical section.
am I the only artist who doesn't give a flying fuck about "lightfastness"?
If you don't create art for display purposes it's not a big deal
@@teohyc even if I did, so what? I mean, anybody who's not a retard would know that if you put ANYTHING in direct sunlight, it's gonna fade eventually, so...why worry about it?
Wish this video has sub 😢 i dont understan. 😢
Alizarin Crimson is my favorite reds and unfortunately its the most fugitive colors on any brand. It gives me the best results when I use it with naples yellow to get skin tones.
+Crazy ASSh Ketchum You don't use the Permanent Alizarin Crimson version?