Mimetic Theory: Two Types of Psychological Needs
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2024
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Why do we want the things we want? One psychological explanation is that we often actually don't know what we want, but instead imitate others. This phenomenon is known as mimetic theory. According to Girard, the French philosopher who originated the theory, most of our desires are metaphysical- as opposed to bodily needs - and we mimic them from people around us. And because of that, people inevitably end up wanting the same things, which creates rivalry, conflict, and scapegoating.
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COLLABORATORS
Script: Ludovico Saint Amour di Chanaz and Jonas Koblin
Artist: Pascal Gaggelli
Voice: Matt Abbott
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Production: Selina Bador
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Cheeky Plum Fairy - Shaun Frearson
Badly Behaved - Shaun Frearson
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Read about how mimetic theory is applied in mental health care
SOURCES
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CHAPTER
00:00 Introduction
00:25 Mimetic theory
01:03 Rene Girard
01:50 The schoolyard dilemma
02:10 Illusion of autonomy
02:25 Subject, object and mediator
02:43 The cycle of scapegoating
03:11 What do you think?
03:35 Patrons credits
03:44 Ending
#sproutsschools #mimetictheory #psychology #girard
I think that this is very true of many people in the US; most of us are able to easily meet our most basic physiological needs and often look outside ourselves for models of behavior that we can follow. This is the basic function of social media in a nutshell.
I don't personally believe it's true, but it is shockingly good at explaining human behavior. There is only rare cases where someone chooses to do something that their surrounding influences don't present as an option, so it is almost impossible to prove wrong from my view of psychology.
But is that what you REALLY personally believe 😅
It shows, again, how free will does not exist. From the way you were treated as a baby, and the toys you were given, and the people and places you encountered, you were being programmed. Between that, and whatever innate properties your parents passed down to you, that is who you are and will define the path of your life, just as it is right now.
Stimuli and response. I am just a monkey clinging to an engine hurtling through life.
Idk, most people would want to be famous actors/singers or famous anything, and yet they know it's most likely not an option for them.
Kind of makes you think that ADHD is an evolution to deal with that sort of psychological defect.
It’s true for some I think. My father will often want something simply because someone else has it and not because he genuinely wants it. I think noticing and realizing that tendency is true freedom.
My mother can relate to it, too. Not having something her friends have genuinly makes her unhappy and unfitting to her circle. Maybe mimitic theory works on people who has something similar to social anxiety?
Since we are social animals I belive that the metaphysical desires take up at least 75% of what we want and the 25 %is what we actually want like exploration of passions or trying new things
Thank you for this. Girard's work is greatly underappreciated and I'm glad also to see Luke Burgis' new book, "Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire in Everyday Life" receiving acclaim. While Girard's work in philosophy was well-received in Europe and especially his home country of France, only recently is it receiving broader attention that I feel it deserves.
mimetic desire can be observed in small children & adults alike in the form of wanting something - or wanting it more - simply because another apparantly wants it. as social creatures, their apparent desire confers value on it in our own perception.
Thanks for sharing!
I think this "mimetic theory" has to do with the overall desire of people to belong in a desirable condition. But even if you mimic someone else, circumstances and events changes according to ones individuality. Nobody is really the same and even in imitations occurs variations.
I think the theory gives a really good explanation to human behavior and the things we "desire". Also I think, that it's important to establish such behavior in the childhood. Meaning, that we should let our children decide more, what they want to wear, do, eat, etc. but in the boundaries of good conversation, and learning them to make these choices based on their own believes and choices, not others.
But it's complex, because all parents, has different methods for this and usually most parents, put in their own opinion so much, that the child forms an opinion likely.
So true, really appreciate putting this research together for us👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for sharing, Stay Safe🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thanks, you too! Keep learning :)
I was just having this conversation today, and I'm glad to know the name of it. I do believe this is true, as I experienced it for myself.
I couldn't understand - why would the role model "cool kid" fight the imitaters and later combine forces to expel the outcast?
fanatism
Those concepts are a bit mixed up in the video. But there is actually a great piece of work on UA-cam that really explains Rene girards theory. There are lectures by Jonathan limbo and David Perell. They are a classic to understanding this. You could check them out if you mind
This theory might be missing out on the other half of mimetic behaviour: avoiding being the cast-away or scape goat. Many people will truly follow suit due to fear, and fear alone. Also, some may try to fit in because others will pay them to do so, fulfilling their desire: daily needs. Finally, presuming the theory is true, what happens if the current trend is creativity/breaking old trends?
Girard was one of the greatest. He wrote about how christianity breaks the vicious cycle of scapegoating and also how people after scapegoating or getting rid of someone always realize that the scapegoat was never the actual problem. The problem of course being their own lack of sufficient desire. But it is an adventure reading him - how people fuel themselves and their own bitterness by singling out someone and end up having to admit to their own toxicity/dysfunction in the end is sth that will always be relevant
From the first year I was learning economics, especially by going through marketing, I learned to distinguish Desires from Needs.
Could you further explain? Sounds like an interesting point.
As always, banger content.
It's a very interesting theory that is sadly true. I would say that most people in our modern society are
I learned of this recently. It is Bound will vs Free will. Bound as in tied or heavily marketed upon by exogenous advertising vs endogenous choice.
I think this is true for a percentage of the population. I would be interested to see the specific percentage, if an educated study could be done However I don’t think this is everyone. I can picture the type of person that this works for and think of people I’ve met in the past. These are people that usually require effort to be around. I think this falls apart with my favorite kind of people. Authentic people who are self conscious. Interocept and exterocept on a regular basis to the point where it’s almost not even in their consciousness and more subconscious. I’ve remember meeting a drifter who some might label as homeless. I don’t think he falls in these categories. Even though I knew him for only a few hours I considered him my friend. Hope he is still doing well.
Thanks for sharing. A highlight of life's indifferences
In a aspect mimetic theory is true and we see it in early childhood development. In ECD how a person develops language and thought is influenced by mimicking their environment, that part rings true in mimetic theory, however the theory does have its limitation once we get to complex areas like group behavior. We do need more information on the more underlying psychological reason to why someone might identify and behave a certain way in a group setting, but for the most part his theory is correct in the very basic level.
Yes!
I guess that sometimes seeing people desire a special thing makes ourselves desire it more.
One's individualism may be the fusion of the result of your attempts at satisfying the mimetic desires.
Since we're individuals, it's impossible to duplicate a behavior exactly as it's expressed by another. This is where individualism is expressed.
i think that you can decide to do things that will not help you towards the goal of being a supreme or heightened being, things like selfless love, where you really are gaining nothing in return, physically and metaphysically speaking. For the majority of the decisions we make i would say this theory is correct, but not always, i think we have a choice, but that means sacrificing ourselves and our desired aspiration of becoming this supreme being.
Interesting! We can have this in mind, not to 'just' follow others. However, it's not all that bad! At the end of the day, our needs are very similar as humans. So, if 'enough' people want something, then there should be a good reason for that, and it might be good to investigate if we want it or not.
At the next level, 'product reviews' is what I personally use when I want to buy a product, so I buy what most others were happy after they bought it. It's true that I'm modelling others, but this way I'm minimizing risk and saving money, also it often ends in being happy with my purchase (unless there have been fake reviews!).
In order to imitate a desire someone had to have the genesis desire... therefore we should all be capable of creating our own desires... i would argue that mimetic desire is simply a stronger compulsion or an easier path to take than making a concious effort to decide what it is that you truly desire.
The most effective way to market a product is to focus on your target audience's insecurities rather than the product's capabilities
We imitate certain things/concepts that we thought would've gotten us to where we'd like to go. In order to do this we decide to imitate others.
Having studied creativity, most new things are just combinations, like the iPhone was a phone and a computer combined, yet seen as innovative. Most novelty still stems from known knowledge, There are few who are really creative.
Psychological visibility. I think it’s one of our most base needs. I don’t need to be “elevated” to cool kid status (in fact I tend to eschew it bcuz it feels too insincere and manufactured and thus transactional and temporary) but I do need to be seen and valued for my own intrinsic worth. And, yes, I often question that myself, hence the need.
Or words to that effect
Humans, as animals exhibit many animalistic behaviors, including pack dynamics as described. But the human can also transcend the animal - and choose to behave however he or she wants. I have taught my children alternatives to these behaviours, and it works fine - there is no requirement to join the pack of wolves and no requirement to become the scapegoat.
We immitate others until we aware about that then we have choss to continue or stop but i think the desire will continue
I believe this only happens in a Fad, a Trend, or some sort of a leader figure telling his/her group what is bad or good for that group that is listening. If you are outside that bubble, you can possibly see it
The basis is thoughts, see thoughts as something substantial something that is. All life is connected with thought on the quantum level. The unseen unknown thought connections with other minds make a most likely future, on the micro level there is a window of quantum fluctuations with free will. Thoughts exist from the past can come from others made by the body and created and influenced by the mind. How we share and make thoughts makes society.
I think being the uncool kid in school, who had the first mountain bike anyone had ever seen, is why somebody tampered with it... which led to my near death, afterwards.😕
Thank you
This personally got to my soul, as I enjoy being different and standing out, but is it for the right reasons ? Also I think that it is both this theory, and that we are given our own choices. Very fascinating subject.
Also to counter this theory, if I don't follow behaviors from a person where am I learning these behaviors in the first place? Whether I get it from a book or a person I think we take whatever we learn from the world and make it our own. I want to see a video countering this theory.
I believe this is true for more superficial and outer driven people who do not necessarily have a strong personal identity or a well thought out and defined sense of self or individualism.. which is really the majority of people these days.
So while the theory is not ubiquitous in its applicability, it definitely holds merit when attempting to deconstruct mainstream behaviours displayed by the general populus.
This video was good at determining the ones who copy, but it glossed over the ones that don’t and asked “do they exist.” Yes, individualists exists. They’re the outcasts you bully or kill.
Good video guys!
Glad you enjoyed it
I think we're if we're honest with ourselves, we can see that this is true for 90 percent of our social interactions. One part that was glazed over is how old school altruism has been very effective at lifting us above a lot of the selfish desire traps that cause so much social trauma. Unfortunately, secular humanism has Has been very effective at deleting the traditional ideas of community, good vs evil and helping your neighbor.
When our heroes and leaders seem selfish, we either pick new heroes or become selfish ourselves.
I disagree because I was never like that. So much for putting all that time into coming up with a theory like that!
In general I believe it is correct. We all have rememberenses of people in school that took a different path. Either good, evel or just on a different level. We all have role models that we admire. Not for their personalities but for their accomplishments.
This is fascinating, thank you for presenting it.
I am curious if there is a name for NOT desiring what others desire?
Quite often I see what is "popular" - be it a car, clothing, a hairstyle - and rather that desire it, I only think, "Why? Why is that popular?" Because it means nothing to me.
I think that the examples weren’t exactly far enough, as one can argue that the removal of the different ( 2:43 ) does not only apply to people, but values themselves, breeding intolerance in both good and bad ways and that in itself avoids the possibility homogeneity, as we are exposed to the environment and people constantly and that breeds both values of what to embrace and what don’t, the birth of good and evil.
I do think that the idea that we are a byproduct of the environment is very likely, but it’s exactly because the environment is complex that it’s almost impossible to have two equal people.
The above cannot be generalized to all humans. However, when we observe that there is a collective consciousness which has been conditioned by our particular society, time and circumstances for the majority to fit into, then we could explain how a person can be influenced by those values. Thus, it is up to the individual to realize and acknowledge his individuality, otherwise; a follower is made and in a society driven by the perceived value of physical goods that he can acquire, that person will learn that to be his own need. He will want that. A Ferrari maybe a need for some. For others a want. Yet for others a superfluous thing when a bike will do. In that case, we could realize that "status" is a marketing tool to sell. Not "real" even if others live in that "reality." It is in that realization how we free ourselves.
every community in every country has and has had group mentality dominant tendencies that range from small to large, if we're talking about the U.S. this applies 100% since they've been programming us the longest
I would say that, like most things, this runs on a spectrum. Some individuals are publicly and privately constantly seeking this validation and belonging to the perceived highest ranked in their social order. Some will play a part to a certain extent publicly to avoid conflict or expulsion from the group but act out their own individual desires privately. Very few people follow their own thoughts and desires publicly and privately, even if it mean being pushed out or at best low ranking in their groups. This can be the person who floats amongst different circles for the parts they personally enjoy but have no difficulty disagreeing with them or walking away when it conflicts with their personal compass.
All of this is again more of a sliding scale than an on-off switch. Since most are at least performing conformity much of the time publicly, it would support a confirmation bias for Gerard's theory. Finding examples that go against it are fewer and most are practiced privately.
Why not both?
Could you do a video on Aphantasia? It is the inability to view images in your brain. Most are born with it, but for some it shows up after an injury. Some people experience a complete absence of mental senses (Multisensory Aphantasia). This is where you can't recall sounds, taste, etc.
There are a lot more studies on it now. It tends to affect your biographical memory.
Could this be connected to Dabrowsk’s theory of positive disintegration? Any connection to Asch effect? Any connection to Maslow’s need of love/belonging? self esteem?
not sure about the first, but imho yes & yes to the latter two. mimetic desire can be observed in small children & adults alike in the form of wanting something - or wanting it more - simply because another apparantly wants it. as social creatures, their apparent desire confers value on it in our own perception.
This is consumerism at it's finest. It's the need to fill a desire - for material goods, status, admiration. Sometimes, desire is negatively expressed as dominance. Scapegoating almost always follows and for the most petty reasons.
The mimetic theory is right to some an extent particularly applies to majority of humans of this social networks and global village ear. In my case, my choices that are intrinsic to my personality and attributes. Being unique and different from rest of the others has its own joy and feelings. Being different is beautiful in its own....
I think there's a lot of truth to that. Personally, I've always tried to beat my own drum. But I believe that mostly comes from the fact that my role models have also been those to beat their own drum. The complexity of the concept seems simple.
The matter of fact is 80% of folks out there doesn't know what they want , therefore they want what others want. The other 20% know what they want and somehow fall under the trend setter or outcast. Depending on individual , I eat out because I want to enjoy tasty food not being seen. Some just want to be seen.
Monkeys want to do what they see monkeys do. They know what they want: try. And then see if it's nice or not. Curiosity is a need.
Golly I never thought that way.
I think in a lot of cases it is true, but not all.
My personality is such, that I am a lone wolf and prefer to be alone with my own personal goals being a huge motivator. I achieved financial independence at age 40, achieved and abandoned careers in the railroad, maritime and energy industries as I achieved my goals, and now in a friendly completion with my wife to see who gets our phd’s first. In most realms, I have been deemed a failure by most people, but not for my wife and I: we thrive on being unassuming. I could afford a Bentley but drive a 2003 Honda CRV because it accomplishes the same task for $7,000 versus $230,000.
I don’t care what others think of me or what I have because if my personality, but if the French Philosopher of this theory does not think like I do which is kind of rare, then this theory makes sense. For me, what he proposes is my seventh circle of hell.
maybe it's the configuation of our 'desires' that make us 'unique', no??? 2. i would argue that the subject can sometimes be the scapegoat, no??? 3. i wd argue that it takes a long time to get to know what we want, ie, to see what's on offer, therefore, we need a longer time to decide? Pl. support longevity research!
No, I really needed gigantic red boots
It depends actually. People do not always imitate others to obtain something.
This happens to some people. I have a group of friends and we have a leader in the group and everyone seems to follow what this leader wear and mimic it's actions, except from me. According to psychology, we also mimic someone we like. But there are people who don't follow social norms like me. And I don't also mimic someone. Mimetic theory might have a point in some ways, but this isn't happening to everyone. Not all people can be influence, especially to someone like me who hates following.
Girard hit the nail on the head. This explains the "No God" culture completely and an off-track
Christian culture as well. Formed in His image humans are triune beings. This video explains
people who are lacking the realization of their spiritual third of themselves yet they failed to
mention that side. So they got this 2/3ds correct.
You know my thoughts.
i always think for myself what I truly want not anybody else
why do I wear those clothes because I want to wear them it looks good to me.
i don't follow trend at all. i found something i like i take that
It's a good theory but it misses the point mentioned by Maslow about self-actualization. Sometimes people try to go beyond societal norms to achieve their potential. E.g. religious motivations
YES. What he said
WOW, what a great channel! Thank you for sharing this spectacular video. Liked (#860) and SUBBED!
Thanks, happy to get that kind of feedback ☺️
@@sprouts
Is the audiologo made with the Nintendo store audiologo plus Kirby's star or am I imagining things?
That scapegoat has individuality.
I think the human psyche if far more complicated than this simplistic version. If we were only ever copying each other we would never advance.
Wow 😳
Who’s is the artist that you use for your videos
That's a depressing video. It may well describe a great many people; but not everyone. Some people are willing to give all they have for Truth & Justice. And to go against the tide.
Interesting food for thought, this does not explain proclivities however. Free will can never be disproven untill we can quantify esoteric things like talent and disposition.
On my second play though I thought to myself…… The metaphysical group remind me of politicians.
El querer eliminar el individualismo y explicarlo toda relacion humana en base al mimetismo la hace muy restrictiva y por tanto disminuye la probabilidad de que sea cierta o mejor dicho la hace falsa.
Es un factor mas, existe pero el sentido que él le da la convierte en un reduccionismo absurdo y risible, pues para el todo seria consecuencia del mimetismo. Ademas segun el ejemplo del video habria una contradicion a la inexistencia de la individualidad, porque existen individuos que no encajan si la individualidad no existe? Que seria la individualidad?
Ademas el mimetismo tendria causas, hay factores que son mas fundamentales, pues como seres sociales el mimetismo tenderia a dar ventajas adaptativas y evolutivas tanto dentro del grupo y en la supervivencia en general. Hay muchas preguntas que hay que hacer:
Porque es importante y que ventajas le da al individuo?
Que rasgo, condiciones(indiduo, social..., ... influyen en el desarrollo de la misma?
Para mi el razonamiento que le daria mas sentido es el de que hay menos rasgos, comportamientos, ideas, elecciones,... que el numero de personas. Y siempre seria posible agrupar personas que encajen en la misma categoria, las cuales directa o indirectamente y de manera mas probable harian converger a un individuo en a la adpcion del mismo rasgo al ser manifestado por alguien que posee la caracteristica al que el primer indivuo está predispuesto.
It's sounds true
Explains the news cycle
But where did the others get it from. The surrondings or the nature of the universe.
What about the person who doesn't comply? I do agree that this type of behaviour is evident but it seems there are exceptions and that perhaps there is a spectrum.
❤
I think I want waffles actually
No idea
Methinks Gerard is just projecting his own insecurities.
*Monke sees, monke does*
Our animal herd instinct 🤗
I grew up seeing my dad wat hing soccer. Now i love soccer. I grew up wat hijg my aunts and uncles singing. Now im a singer
I think he was thinking of how people want to identify with a group identity. The assumption that everybody thinks that way leads to identity politics that assuumes that everyone in a certain defined subgroup of society and acts the same way. It never sees people individuals that have individual experiences and can think for themselves. In fact the political grifters that promote identity politics try to makes other conform to their way of thinking to confirm there exaggerated claims of oppression by the majority. That isn’t working that well.
Its work like that way untill you understand whats you truly want.
15 percent of of us have desires completely independent of the rest of humanity
What is it called when you consistently go against the grain and trends? Amimetic?
😂
just like the level of ethic standards we have. influrnced by the whole society, by closed social circle. and by yoir own one.
learning more about yourself will have you your own thought of things, e.g. I think try to do something to be remebered by next generations after ddeath is terribly silly.. do it brcasue it is right simy is better.
This video explained mimetic behavior very well. It shows how rigged the societal structure is in this world!!
the problem is, why the cool even has these shoes, like did he saw them from another even cooler kid?
As soon as the theory claims to explain everything or apply universally it fails. Many people do operate in this pattern to widely varying frequency, but sometimes they don't. Many desirable objects had at some point to be desired when they did not yet exist which precludes imitation. So it's true, but only sometimes.
Girard Mimetic Theory does not explain how anybody could be individual at all - and many are. He just denies that they are. Also, it ignores originality - if people in society are just mimetic how does anything new and original arise? Clearly there are creative people aplenty, so he ignores them too.
This is probably taught at advertisement school.
done
Advertising takes advantage of this mimetic theory.
We’re all victims at one time or another.
A bit of each.
Some of his ideas are correct but not everyone wants to be like others some people choose their own path and travel it alone without the desire of being liked by others.
this is just like about by one friend lfmao