What "speed" do you think the senseis were talking about? Previous Episode: ua-cam.com/video/hvZrC4MSpns/v-deo.html Yusuke in Okinawa Season 2: ua-cam.com/play/PL6uceGkw5VFmFMlNwF9ra2yPvZSsuqZXT.html 🥋FREE TRIAL｜Online Group Lesson🥋 karateintokyo.com/ 🥋Online Private Lesson🥋 karateintokyo.com/online-training/ Yusuke in Okinawa Season 1: ua-cam.com/play/PL6uceGkw5VFkSWeQVK8hnrXt5LEwiV6JD.html
On my opinion base on my experience the unconscious conditional reaction is like a feeling.You have a pattern base just on your feeling with just a little glimpse of what you see without having full intention to it. Because if you put intention you become conscious on your body then you get rigid in your movements then your will not be that much relax.if your not relax there is a tension on your body that's why the sensie says it's slow.
dk yoo (i know he is not popular right now) and systema (a system that also receives a lot of criticism) both focus on relaxation for speed and power the concept is like a whip. when your body is tense, you do not generate the same amount of momentum or acceleration. its like kicking a roundhouse or mawashi geri without driving your hip and pivoting your foot. there is a reason why baseball players and golf players both match their body with the swing. and, in that sense, neither are using rigid muscle tension but a smooth motion to generate the maximum force a smooth motion is not only beautiful but generates tremendous power. Force (N) = mass (kg) * acceleration (m/s²) ... but i could be wrong
Seems very similar to what boxers do. Keeping loose and using full kinetic chain (like a whip) to increase power and avoiding telegraphing your moves to increase likelihood of landing.
When I hear the term “relax” in reference to karate movement, I think of a whip, a whip is always relaxed, the holder moves the arm a certain way and transfers the energy into the whip. In the same way the Tanden is like the handle and if your body is relaxed, and you move the tanden vigorously the body can be relaxed and whip out. This is the beginning
+1 I use the whip analogy when I teach. The handle of the whip is the hips, and the tip of the whip is the fist. I will sometimes bring towels to class and have students snapping the towels. The feel of punching should be similar to the feel of snapping a towel. The towel is relaxed. And then just tension at the end to snap it.
Oh wow these old folks are genuine. They even go as far as to encourage watching youtube videos and learn through trial and error. Vastly different from schools that teach "my way or the highway". There's still hope in traditional martial arts to be "truth searching". Great video!
Well, this episode was one with tremendous amount of hard to digest information. It made me realize I'm somewhere at the beginning of the right path with absolutely no clue what's the next good step I should take. Like a year or so ago I tried to apply a few more relaxation-stiffness principles and they become quite incompatible with the way a kata performed by the today's competition standards should look like so I decided I'm doing it wrong and abandoned that approach. Most probably I was doing it wrong but now I'm thinking I should go back to that and re-think everything. Thank you Sensei Yusuke, having all this information shared by the great masters you visit is of priceless value!
i think this is a fundamental difference between the theatrical performance of Kata and the efficiency for Kumite competition the movement is optimized for different goals
@@uglystupidloser agreed. I went from karate to silat and one thing my teacher pointed out was my tendency to "strike a pose" when I did our practices. The forms may look nice but I was stiff and couldn't properly flow from one move to another or Generate sufficient power, which made my practice of the forms pointless from a combative perspective
@@LiShuBen Even in Karate, you're not suppose to fight like in katas... Katas are only a syllabus of techniques and let you train hidden principales of body parts and muscles enhancement, balance gain... Maybe it just did not correspond to your will of practicing. Pencha Silat is "bunkai"-oriented, so they think we fight with kata...
@@uglystupidloser Kumite competition don't show anything efficient... Light contact, only few basic movements, always the same. This is actual kumite competition, and you can see almost only beginners, just like in kata competition.
@@Yeino you're right, of course, but i just think it is very easy to misinterpret. a student that practices with kata, and knows only kata, may not even be aware of how or why his or her form is not optimized for sparring.
The principal across karate is reasonably easy to explain. Think about throwing a tennis ball (naturally). You put your body behind it and your body stays un-tensed until the moment you let go, where for a moment it tenses. You throw a punch, you don’t lift a punch, so do not tense when trying to punch or you will simply slow it down. Think in your head of throwing a tennis ball, but that tennis ball is your fist. Think about how you throw a tennis ball (naturally) your whole body gets used. Easy to understand much harder to perform. Good videos. Oss 🥋🙇♂️
Great analogy. But with throwing a tennis ball (or baseball) you don't even need to tense... You just let go somewhere along the path. Very few techniques require any tension...the fist, maybe shuto or koken... elbows, kicks, receiving techniques, throws...none of those need a point of tension.
For English speakers Sensei Rick Hotton explains these things in more detail. For teachers like this in the video, they tend to hold things back until you achieve some results in their methods but even with this their teachings is high quality for a "beginner " and will give you a decade or more of stuff to work on.
There is also a great deal of reluctance to reveal much, or perhaps an inability to verbalize it. Traditionally, one was in the dojo, day after day, training, observing, possibly being corrected, but the learning curve and methodology is different from the Western practice. He's getting a crash course. The concept of ''elegant dancing' reveals a historical connection between traditional Okinawan dance and martial arts.
I think most if not all eastern martial arts are really hard to describe. they need to be felt and understood. words are often insufficient and can be misleading.
My 2 cents worth. I started in karate when I was 16 and Wing Chun when I was 24. Totally opposites in all ways that matter. Most karate styles are hard while wing chun, done correctly, is mostly soft. Relaxation in key and hard to master. Little trick i found usefull was using weights, I used house bricks, and performing punches with them. This will force your muscles into a relax mode and will show immediate benefit when punching in relaxed mode straight after. It shows you what relaxed feels like, as you can think you are, but in reality you're still stiff. Repeat often. Also, when going into a stance, sink all your weight evenly and practice stepping like that. Lastly, find someone who can show you how to do chi sao. This will train your hands and arms to react automatically to strike their targets and repel incoming attacks. Finally, it is amazing the amount of power your body can generate while relaxed. Try my tips and let me know. Good luck.
I think they are also talking about the ability to change from one movement to the next. If you finish a movement and maintain tension it can be difficult to change direction afterwards, especially if you are tense through all motions. On the other hand, if you tense only at impact and immediately relax again, you can flow into the next technique much faster and continue the "ultra relaxed into moment of being tensed up" over and over without pause. That's my interpretation at least.
This training seems very difficult. I think you captured the senseis sentiment perfectly when you said “if only it were that easy.” I’m sure his intention isn’t to come off as cold, but for the amount of time he has put into the practice, I understand his responses
This is absolutely new information (their Kihon). I'm willing to bet there are so many karatekas esp non-Japanese/Okinawa - trained that have reached dan 3 and up and still have never heard of this.
The way I think about it for taekwondo poomsae (which also in theory has a similar concept of relaxation), is to *use as little energy as possible to perform the technique perfectly*. I have to move my body to certain positions to make a particular technique, but along the way I need to eliminate all unnecessary movements and tension.
Remind me of old days ... I started practicing silat under my father and he trained me the eastern way, "do this" and left me repeating for months, then he corrected my gain by giving me different way of doing the form "you are too (fill any defect here), let's try this". No long explanation. I am nearing my 50th birthday, and only started to understand his point 😅.
This is very interesting. My Kung Fu system has a similar approach. Relaxation, without becoming floppy, is key. Power is there when needed. As you say - "balance" :)
They are talking about absolute speed. Any unnecessary tension "feels strong", but as it's necessarily an antagonist movement it will slow you down. In the end the energy you can bring into your limb depends on its speed and the effective mass. Its real mass is always the same. Its effective mass is augmented a result of the reflexive stiffening upon impact (that brings the mass of the whole body into play for a moment, not just the limb). So the rest is really just about the most efficient movement to get the body in the right position with the maximum speed. Most attempts at "speeding up" usually result in recruiting unneccessary muscles to "help". Often "now with Kime!" only results in an execution where the antagonists are stiffened. That feels "strong" because it is more effortful. You're basically hindering yourself from the execution all the way through and that feels like more effort. That unnecessary recruitment of additional muscles will happen with any attempt at "doing" something, because "doing" requires to break motions down into parts and execute them. But what's optimal for each part of the motion, isn't the optimum for the motion as a whole. To get rid of that the motion has to happen "reflexively". Therefore the body has to do a motion unconsciously, thinking of it as one "whole", and that takes a ton of repetitions to develop the nervous system so it can just follow that intention.
Hello, I’m a Tai Chi practitioner, and it was really cool to see this lecture on Karate internals. Tai Chi students are taught that muscle tightness and tension impede the flow of Qi (Ki). My original Master taught us about the use of the figure 8 in Tai Chi forms as well. Your teachers are right about relaxation coming from the ground up, because the Qi flows from the ground up, and then back down in a circuit. In the system I learned, there are 3 Dantian. The most important of those is the lower Dantian, or Tanden- as Karate would call it. And yes, it changes over time. I don’t know how it is for Karate practitioners, but Tai Chi practitioners can roll their Tanden after they reach a certain level. Standing meditation helps with that. For information on standing meditation as it relates to Tai Chi, look up Zhan Zhuang. Once you’re comfortable in the standing meditation stance, you can feel the Qi flow better, and access meditative states. It’s pretty cool for internal development.
I love that all the masters from various martial arts (especially chinese and japanese) with at least 30+ years of solid training under their belt has very similar idea about "relaxation" aspect. I so wish I have the opportunity to learn from them directly even for a short time.. when they mention "whip" it immediately reminds me of what Miyahira Tamotsu Sensei said and showed on another martial arts channel.
It’ll be interesting to see an analysis between the shogen ryu approach and goju ryu’s approach. It seems like relaxed vs tensed but it would be nice to see a more detailed analysis, and input from anyone studying either styles.
So holding a belt in Wado Ryu and training twice a week formally and informally every early morning I watch this and think wow there is sooo much left to learn, excellent 👍🏻 thank you
Thank you for another interesting video. I haven't trained in martial arts since I was a kid, but I do miss it. Maybe if I get back into shape, I'll find a dojo here in Tokyo 🙂
Relaxation is relaxation. Speed is speed. What they're talking about is the muscles tensing continued flow for make a movement. The relaxation state they're talking about corresponds to the minimal muscle effort you have to perform to complete the movement at full speed, with full relaxation on near muscles. They told you to relax your fist and your shoulders, and to relax as much as you could while your arms were performing a movement. But Tokashiki sensei told you that he practiced it very slowly at the beginning and then tried to speed up progressively. It's due to muscles unintentional contraction. If you're willing to perform it at full speed the first time you try, your muscles would tense unintentionally, and you'd lose speed and power. Not demanding too much and letting your muscles relax is the key. Tamaki sensei focuses more on stances and movements, talking about Saika/Seika Tanden. Tokashiki sensei focuses more on Ate/Uke Waza. They make a good teaching duo. I've just remembered Tamaki sensei performing Naihanchi and Seisan, and it makes me think that their way of performing Katas is just like Funakoshi sensei and passed masters did it. Concerning Ryo Kiyuna and the title of this video, i agree with them. Performing a Kata during a competition is far away from its comprehension and from its principles. Shiai is very different from Bujutsu. Flashy movement during a Kata competition does not represent the reality of a true fight. Neither it represents the wartime periods in which it's supposed to be used. That's why they compared him to a simple beginner.
A good punch is one that lands on target. A better punch lands on target with power. A best punch lands with power and though they knew it was coming, they never saw it. (the best one is usually well after some good punches, or a couple of powerful punches, that swelled their eyes shut)...hehehehehe. The key is landing them. All landed punches are good. Perfection is when they don't land any, and you get to land the one that ends the conflict. Strive for perfection.
I think you are maybe understanding “relaxed” a little bit too literally. They do not mean relaxed as in “not engaged,” they mean relaxed as in “not tense.” There’s a pretty big difference, and similar ideas are found through out other forms of art creation such as dancing, drawing, and painting-even old ways of writing. It’s hard for young karateka to understand, I think, because it doesn’t feel very powerful even though it is very powerful, as well as being much faster.
Late to the party, but I think he got the concept alright, but not the whole picture. Other Shotokan masters have had similar epiphanies. Egami of Shotokai had his at the Makiwara, you take out the heavy kime out of the techniques and they (strikes) potentially become very dangerous. Egami mentioned that Funakoshi didn't move like the way Shotokan was being taught, but moved very relaxed seemingly without any power, but you couldn't stop his blows and his blocks were like hammers. If you can find it, there's book by Arakaki The secrets of Okinawan Karate that goes into great depth of what theses two gentlemen were describing. but it's more than just becoming a whip, it's how you use the tanden to project power into your blows, like dropping the front knee a few inches, just before you hit , forces the tanden forward and thus projecting the whole body weight into say a punch, into a opponent.
I really respect their knowledge. I just wonder what their sparring looks like. It would be great to capture sparring sessions around Okinawa if you do a third season.
That was fascinating. Be Relaxed enough to not telegraph your movements to a experienced opponent is a good goal to work towards. I also really like the segment with the heavy bag & how the instructor was slipping in his finger
At 1:26, i was taught this when i was a blue belt student from my former shito ryu senpai 15 years ago. It's extremely hard and very counter intuitive. The 2 senseis and my senpai said the same thing. Practice it very slowly and continuously. The easier to describe from my own experience learning it is, it's a winding clock effect. My bows to the 2 masters.
I enjoy this so much, thank you so much for sharing this valuable information, there is nothing like learning from the old master directly. And there is more to the relaxation than "the result of a perfect balance between speed and the information given to the opponent" It is also the relaxation of the confidence of a movement that is so deep within you that has been etched both slowly and quickly, and that it has the accuracy to precisely stop a millimetre away from target, or to tense a millimetre away from impact.
I know exactly what they are conveying. Relaxation of your mind and muscles. It’s hard for anyone who has trained in a Japanese system to untrain what they have been conditioned to practise like.
Wow, great lesson. He was very fast; but so relaxed it was slow (to him). You’ll get it when you’re 50-60 (haha): “He who knows can not say; and he who says does not know.” Thanks for another great lesson: very inspirational! My Sensei talked about being in that zone when you’ve had a close to death experience and everything happens in an instant; but to you it’s going in slow motion. I’ve experienced this twice in automotive accidents; but how to train yourself to get there and apply it to martial arts, I cannot say. I’m already 58 so I may get another year or so to figure it out (60).
You know, it seems as though they want the level of relaxed one can become during live kumite for kata training. When they mentioned your shoulder dropping it brought to mind Lyoto Machida. He's from a Shotokan background even but he's very smooth and relaxed while fighting, so much so that he often leaves his hands open and kinda limp at the wrist. You shoukd check out some of his high lights on youtube if you haven't to see what I mean.
Force = Mass * Acceleration. The mass of your arm is static. So you can increase force by increasing acceleration. You have two sets of muscles at play. The muscles that making the punch happen, and the opposing muscles that will slow down the punch. Think isometric resistance. You want to have the opposing muscles completely relaxed as they will slow down the punch, decreasing the force. Of course, you want to minimize telegraphing. Only forward motion. Your brain sees the target, and your hand is already in motion to hit the target.
From 1:42 to 1:57. That's Tamaki sensei being "high and mighty" to me. Tells you, "ultimately you won't doing that" then basically after being asked for guidance, he goes "you'll get it eventually" and leaves you hanging. Glad Yusuke Sensei ain't no noob. That approach is a recipe for a student to get hurt bad.
So, I do jiujitsu, and I think I understand what they mean, especially in the way he said "dancing". The fact that you said "information given" is also relevant. Think about when you dance with a partner - there's a sort of "sensitivity" you have to have, in order to tell each other which way to move. You're not grabbing on to them really hard, you have to gently "connect" to them, to sense their next move. I think this translates to all martial arts. When you're relaxed and sensitive, you can target your focus on the things to which you know you need to pay attention. This results in "speed", but relaxed speed, not tension. You can feel what the next move needs to be. If you're tense and panicky, your mind is overloaded and can't process incoming information as well. I'd love to hear thoughts on my thoughts. Thanks for the great video!
I imagine the concept of relaxation he is referring to is to develop your Karate into such a natural state of movement. You can learn to grab say a glass of water as a child and as an adult, grabbing a glass of water becomes this state of automation as well, your mind and body are able to calculate circumstances such as catching the glass of water if it slipped out your hand before hitting the ground. The high level at which you can grab things requires a mere glance and state that's completely unconscious. As compared to mainland Karate forms and practice, there is this entire ritual that seems to take place. Very rigid body movements, intensity and tensions. As well there's a "telegraph' because intent seems to create a conscious movement and preparation to strike.
There's an ultimate power between anger and serenty. So, in my opinion, being totally relaxed doesn't generate speed and power nor being being totally tense. We must find "in between."
There are people who will say the pinky through the chain is easy and not used in fighting. But I would argue there are people who couldn't get inside a garage with a bicycle and a gps. So for the sensei to do that unconsciously is amazing!
Relax, relax, relax. Practice Shuto-Uke slowly with open relaxed hands. Imagine your forward hand gently guiding the opponent’s arm with your forward hand gently sliding down your opponent’s arm with a feeling of gentle control. You should be gently breathing out through your nose the entire time. Around the time I was turning 65-70, I would show up early to the Dojo, clean the floor, put away anything left out and then do 1/2 hour of slow gentle Shuto-Uke in all directions before class started. One day I took a folded Judo mat and put it against the wall. Folded the mat was 4 layers, each of 2”, so about 8” thick when against the wall. I started slow gentle Yokogeri-Kekomi against the mat. When I removed the mat to put it away, I saw that I had put a hole in the drywall behind the mat. LOL
@@mjokffsgfjs No, at that time I was helping to run group via Parks & Rec in Pismo Beach, CA. and we trained in the Vets’ Hall. I tried to be a good boy and called the city P&R Dept. and offered to pay for the repair, but they refused and fixed it on their own dime.
8:43 Dude. That's totes what I said on the last video. Dancing/figure skating. lol What they're trying to tell you is that you're not going to completely get it until you're older. I remember when I was 35 everything I ever learned in school, life, etc., that I never "got", suddenly I understood. As if I downloaded programs my whole life and then suddenly at a certain age all those programs finally ran. It's just how life works. It's not really technique . It's something that's going to just become natural over time.
The speed they were talking about is automatic response. When you are not presuming everything which means focus. But Focus is narrow sight so you can miss stuff. When you have no expectation you have all around you awareness instead of looking for something from a few choice places which are essentially educated guesses, but more than one location and you get startled or guess wrong. You have to change because you start in reserved motion. You are an arrow already pointed. If things go different than you presume you have to process that change in your Mind your direction. Awareness with Understanding and No Anticipating-leaves one to respond more appropriately without preparation. You are still water who can sense the location of any disturbance. Instead of conscious Processing and Thinking, use of Understanding and Awareness one might respond more appropriately, which allows for faster.-Ernie More Jr.
XD these guys are awesome. Ok, one more bit of old-fashioned Chinese 武术 terminology, then. The meaning of "relaxed", or even "relaxed power" doesn't really translate, like you point out. So my teacher used 顺缠 about the preparation. And 逆缠 about the release. Mostly pictographic characters - the first one is a person standing next to a river. The recurring character is a silk-thread on a box. So you're gathering flow by the stream, perhaps.. The first in the second character is a spool unwinding on a 辶, to walk, from the box. As in you're not really releasing the stored power, you're letting it unwind and flow out. In the most basic sense: Breathing in and compacting, breathing out and releasing. To begin with, that seems like a mechanical compromise to achieve a quick, untelegraphed strike. Or even an invitation to tense up and then throw a limp arm out and break your arm, a lot of people think.. But if you realize that well-trained, healthy muscles rotate around the arm, and how there's a series of different muscle-groups moving in sequence as you move through the whole movement range - it starts to make sense. To relax and control the release, rather than tense up and chuck out a punch from the shoulder, that has little stability and won't connect unless you're fighting a sack. You're maybe not able to make an as big impact this way as you would, without much training, from a full swing if you measured it on a stationary object. But a really fast and controlled punch that connects more than hard enough is still.. obviously.. a lot faster and more powerful than a gigantic, telegraphed swing. In addition, if you do it right, you're not telegraphing it. So he's not equivocating about the meaning of the words here.
The way I take speed to mean here is about the speed of completion of your move. Its like how one must choose between efficiency and effectiveness? Do you want to "get there fast" or do you want to "be done quicker"? I wish I was still young enough to attempt this, or that I had teachers like these in my youth. By now at 56 I would (theoretically) be finally "getting it right"
Yusuke-San congrats for bringing us all this knowledge. I think Shogen Ryu concept of relaxation is quite similar with the Asai Ha Shotokan. Shihan Asai developed a lot of kata based on Chinese styles and mixed with Shotokan, his style also keeps the traditional 26 Shotokan kata. I really would like to see you trying some Asai-ha specifics. Regards from Brazil.
I practice Shito Ryu in the States and all the older guys tell me to relax all the time; it’s definitely the biggest thing I have to work on. I guess I watch too many Sony Chiba movies 😎
thanks for these videos again, the relaxed is based on transfer of force in a machine (your body in this case) remember that F=ma by being relaxed the transfer of force from the movement of the entire body moves to the flying arm. So in ideal mechanical conditions (numbers are a little off for simplicity and I am ignoring loss of energy) if someone weights 75kg and is able to accelerate the body rotations (from what I remember) at 5m/(sec x sec) and their arm weights 10kg then the acceleration of the arm would be 75m/(sec x sec) so the force would be the same but the higher acceleration. I looked at the numbers and the acceleration of a boxer's punch is about 85m/(sec x sec)
it's interesting how he talks about "unconscious conditional reaction". it's actually very much like Bruce Lee was talking about in that scene from Enter the Dragon where at that moment, there is no i nor an opponent. i don't strike. "it" strikes on it's own. i love how these theories intersect in so many different styles no matter the difference in culture. it just goes to show that in the end, although there are many ways to express the art of fighting, it's still all the same message. :)
its all just a part of the same truth, in the end. we express ourselves through the movement of our bodies. and combat between people is a dialogue that transcends spoken language, but just as sophisticated, technical, and unique
A easy explanation is look at the systems core techniques like upward inward outward etc. Chop punch horizontal punch elbow etc. And instead of moving to any given point look at the structure in space and then instead of striking or blocking just move your movement to that same place. Then string a bunch of locations together and just move to each location through the form. It would make it positional instead of energetic.
It's interesting how the previous sensei thought your punches were really nice, but the senseis here seem to think every aspect needs improvement. Guessing it's just a style difference, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Yes, absolutely. This points out a major issue here - there is no objective criterion used here to assess the punch (maybe a speed measurement of the hand, or total force at impact for instance). And in its absence, the assessment is based on how a certain technique matches an “ideal technique” based on their style. Which is very dissatisfying.
Relaxation will speed up your movement, but as you said you can't be 100% relaxed, you need a balance between relaxation and tension, when you start the movement you start more relaxed to speed it up, them when you start to reach near to the contact point you start to tense it out to hit like a rock or whip and them after the and of contact you start to relax again. By the way I'm kung fu practicer and I think this is one of the most important aspects in martial arts.
I think you are right about not being 100% relaxed because if were then you would fall over like a wet noodle. I think its more about relaxing certain parts at certain times and allowing the momentum created from other body parts to drive the arms froward. Both what they said and the demo about joint range of motion reminds me a lot about how the wrist moves while throwing a baseball, in fact the mechanics of throwing a baseball are a very similar to throwing a punch. Have you ever seen a pro throw a baseball in slow motion? Looks a lot like what the master was doing with his wrist but in reverse. Rather then using pure strength they use whats called elastic recoil (maybe is what is meant when they say to relax). This done by creating the lengthening of muscles form the front foot and leg, up the hip, across the core to the pec, then the inner part of the arm and palm (imagine a rubber band that is attach to the led leg on the inner foot/thigh that cross all the way up to the opposite arm and palm and that it is being stretched) ,temporally separating the hips and trunk as well as the throwing arm to load up, then they just release the band. here is the steps to it: First they pivot the front foot and the hips with it as well as pulling the led arm back, then they transfer most of their weight to their lead leg, the trunk however rotates the opposite direction. Once it's all loaded they release, allowing the upper trunk to go the same direction as the hips and the throwing arm/wrist just follows creating a catapult like motion (like the movement with the wrist the master did only in reverse). I have notice that this movement has a lot the stances we do in karate when you break it down like this. Punching is very similar your just not loading up as far back, its more like loading bow, however the sequence/ concept is the same and of course at the end you want to harden your hand at impact.
No, Sir, I can only refer to Soke Yoshimis videos, from which I understood: Balance comes from proper stance that enables better relaxation.Speed is the result of the two made properly. Yet, there is something that the Your masters have not said: - the double-hand nature of blocking performed during that waving motons of the body! To my observation, a complete movement is a combintation of two waves, when the first one is helping first blocking followed by the second wave completing the main block, with the other hand, of course. Just look up that video from SOke Joshimi in Italy and give it a try. Paul,67, best regards.
I may be way out in left field with this observation, but it reminds me of Tai Chi...specifically of the Chen style. In Tai Chi, there's like a 'rag doll' kind of relaxed state with a sudden explosion upon impact and an immediate collapse into relaxation. It's the yin/yang flow, like waves crashing on the beach and returning to formlessness of the ocean.
Speed comes from the smoothest execution possible, 起こりを失くす so not only is it harder to perceive, it is physically much faster as well. 自分で動きを停めずに相手の身体に全部預ける。でも、素振りだけでは理解しにくて、巻き藁をマメにやると解ってくる、素振りの時にどうしてもイメージトレーニングの関係で格好良くありたくて力んでしまってスピードが落ちてしまいます。速く感じるのは興奮しているからであって、実際に自分の身体の最大速度を出してとは限りません。人間は怪我を恐れる潜在意識でどうしてもブレーキをかけます。
Naka sensei of JKA also demonstrated this skill in the movie of "Black Belt" and real life. Hit opponent without intention, then the hit is fast and not easy to be sensed and blocked/avoided by opponents
Yeah I believe so I mean even Bruce Lee and boxers also do the same thing it's a relaxing Bruce Lee even said relax don't clench your fist or tighten your muscles until moments before striking lipsense
It's actually completely relaxing. Now the meaning; so at the start and end of the strike you will not be relaxing; the middle will be completely relaxed, like a whip. By end I don't mean when you hold but the point of impact.
I think when they say an experienced person will sense that, they basically mean the more relaxed you are the less you telegraph to the opponent. I could be wrong.
7:47 Wait to the last, on mainland Japan, or Here saying do not have the force already at the end before the last of the technique. Both say no tension during technique at your delivery place. The lack of tension is not be limp even when they say be very relaxed. Japan has earthquakes. The Earth is Hard and Soft or Soft Hardness. The force passes through a balance of hard-soft, like a whip. What they are getting at and saying to you seems like Force as Earthquake moves as Tsunami. With your mind on only the spot below the naval-above the waist You move with Understanding. Understand what you would like to be and the limbs obey the Will. Move with Though. Travel like the Wind.-Ernie Moore Jr.
I tend to think most non-Goju/naha-te styles tend to have this 'relaxed' element in techniques. Even in the Mainland versions of Shitoryu , esp the Shukokai of Tani and kimura, it is strongly emphasised, compared to the 'modern shotokan'. Possibly Gichin funakoshi's original 'Shotokan' showed much more relaxation than modern Shotokan, which had altered due to Gichins son and i think Azato's ideas. I experienced the difference when I trained in Shotokan , having first trained in Shukokai. Here in this Okinawan style. it is very strongly emphasised, obviously. As is the motion of the centre of gravity.
Naha-te and Goju-ryu based styles only tense muscles during Katas, with the purpose of muscular enhancement. Practicing Sanchin (opening kata) lets you gain muscle, and also warms up your muscles, ready to be tensed at any time. Their method is a good one, but if practiced by a muscles lacky guy, he could injure himself willing to speed up while his muscles can't resist the full tension + speed. He could end his mouvement with an élongation, or even more. Goju-ryu practitioners obviously don't fight like in katas. Going to the gym for gaining muscles quickly is counter-productive, because of the opposite muscles. If you gain muscles quickly, you'll lose speed as quickly. That's why they tend to say it takes decades to build this kind of skill, and that's why Goju-ryu practitioners train like this : harmonize the muscles development, even if it's a little bit slower than going to the gym. That's why Goju-ryu system recommends to first train Sanchin for several years before acceeding to other Katas. As an example, look to Bruce Lee. His punch is still the world record for the quickest fist punch. Everyone is granting Jeet Kune Do to be efficient due to his skills. But have you seen his musculature, especially his forearm muscles ? That's why his punch impact was efficient, not only due to his speed, but also due to all the muscles contraction of his forearm. You could speed up as much as you can, if you don't have muscles, you're only launching weight with no contraction, and the resulting power will be proportionally be divided. During Sanchin, you also reverse your pelvis bone, putting your Saika/Seika Tanden in your front axis to gain balance. Your knees also do the job, so the purpose remain the same as Naihanchi. The avantages of Sanchin are the muscles training and the breath training, whereas the avantages of Naihanchi are the lower back muscles and the short range Ura Tsuki work. There are also hidden parts into these trainings, but i let you discover all of this...
@@Yeino i know katas are supposed to be like a book, and the movements also help develop the necessary muscle groups, but i just think that karate loses its way as the years go on. everyone has their own interpretation of what it should be. and it changes from teacher to student, generation to generation. [edit: and society to society] ... have you checked out Kudo? its a new style of karate that is a fusion of judo and jiujitsu. it doesn't offer the... safe space for all people to train, but i think it offers many of the things that modern karate now lacks.
@@uglystupidloser maybe you're thinking about competition karate, or maybe recent karate styles, like Shotokan-ryu. Talking about Kudo, it's a fork of Kyokushin-ryu, which implémenté Judo, BJJ, wrestling, English boxing, Muay Thai... Its purpose is clearly competition, so it's more a fighting sport than a martial art, even if it integrates martial arts techniques. You think Karate lacks many things, but traditional Okinawan styles already integrates joint locks, projections, ground fight. Even the recent Wado-ryu is called "Jujutsu Kempo" by the Otsuka family. You've probably only scratched the surface.
I don't find my experiences training Shito-ryu Genbukai aka Demura-ha, anymore relaxed that my experiences with Goju-ryu, Shobayashi-ryu, ChungDoKwan and JiDoKwan which at the time, were strongly Shotokan based. I am confident that, if I brought these Shogen-ryu concepts into the Shito-ryu class, I'd be corrected out of them. What they are conveying here I encounter in my Taji Chen experiences which is a totally different concept of movement. Unfortunately, finding pure Shogen-ryu stateside is like the search for the holy grail. I know of one in San Diego. I've pretty much taken myself out of formal karate training and am focusing on kobudo now. Not enough world enough and time to master what I've come to see and understand. Lots of light, but not enough time to read.
@@zzdoc2 Don't worry for your choices. You're the only one deciding what suits the best for you. But basically, Karate and Kobudo have many things in common, at least for Ryukyu Kobudo...
I've gotten more or less this exact lecture before 🙂. The way I interpret it is not that 100% relaxed means no muscular contraction, because that would make no sense, and I don't see it in terms of information either, that's a byproduct. I see it that the sensation of tension comes from engaging opposed muscle groups, working against yourself, and providing force vectors that work against what you are trying to do and in favour of an outside force once applied. We like how that feels because it feels like "working," how we feel when we work against a force like lifting a weight, and it supports an over-thought body positioning aligned with a notion of correctness instead of a typically less beautiful natural body positioning. Being 100% relaxed means moving with thoughtless naturalness, with very limited thought, so that you rely on the stable order and positions of the joints for strength, and use the muscle groups you need to make the motion without unduly engaging opposing muscle groups. I remember when my Sensei tricked me into moving this way, it would seem very easy in class but then I would be sore in muscles I didn't even know I had for days after lol. This is not how it was explained to me, Sensei took more of the keep trying, you'll get it approach, but this is just my best attempt to wrap my head around it.
Think about when you are shooing a mosquito away from your face do you use exerted force or a gentle swaying of your hand on the return you maybe even able to catch the mosquito,gnat or fly with no effort. Stop asking for approval if you are better. A RyuKyu sensei of any stlyle will not compliment will usually say a little improvement better than before. This was taught to me over 40 yrs ago when I first began. It isn't that they are refraining to compliment but the arrogant mind unconsciously will stop at that point to improve and moves to focus on another skill, without mastering the most basic one. Remember that every day you put on your obi and it fades and tatters naturally because you have taken the time to reevaluate your own self in stance, breath control, slow motion and actual speed of Kata. This is the methodical training that very few accomplish because many get frustrated and resort to dojo hopping.
Common rule of athletic movement. Being able to move quickly. The body must be relaxed. Where you stretch your body from head to toe. And tense your muscle at the same time. You will deliver fast and powerful move and explosive punch and kicks. But if your body is stiff and your muscles is tense. Then you won't be able to move quickly. You will lack of power in your punch and in your kick. And you will move like a robot. Imagine an Olympic shot putter. If the shot putter have tense muscles. Then he won't be able to move fast or throw far. The putter must be relaxed to move quickly and fully extended in the delivery moment to throw far away. The same applies to a soccer player. To kick the ball far away. The soccer player must be relaxed to move quickly and kick the ball far. It can not be done. If the muscles are tense and the body is stiff. Try to throw 10 pound stone. And try to kick hard on a soccer ball. Adjust your movement for triyng to maximize your delivery of power. Try to use your body correct.
Funny how these old tigers are talking about the same thing the Tai Chi guys try to talk about, but can actually demonstrate some functional combat ability and power even in old age like my Sifu. Respect to the old generation for sharing their secrets with the world before they pass and the knowledge is lost forever.
Have you ever really banged something like a cupboard ect .when you flinch and pull your arm back to avoid something. It is totally loose as you pull it back with out thinking. Do you remember the impact and bang sound your elbow or body part made accidentally hitting something unintentionally ? Do you remember how quick it moved ?
What "speed" do you think the senseis were talking about?
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On my opinion base on my experience the unconscious conditional reaction is like a feeling.You have a pattern base just on your feeling with just a little glimpse of what you see without having full intention to it. Because if you put intention you become conscious on your body then you get rigid in your movements then your will not be that much relax.if your not relax there is a tension on your body that's why the sensie says it's slow.
dk yoo (i know he is not popular right now) and systema (a system that also receives a lot of criticism) both focus on relaxation for speed and power
the concept is like a whip. when your body is tense, you do not generate the same amount of momentum or acceleration.
its like kicking a roundhouse or mawashi geri without driving your hip and pivoting your foot.
there is a reason why baseball players and golf players both match their body with the swing.
and, in that sense, neither are using rigid muscle tension but a smooth motion to generate the maximum force
a smooth motion is not only beautiful but generates tremendous power.
Force (N) = mass (kg) * acceleration (m/s²)
... but i could be wrong
Seems very similar to what boxers do. Keeping loose and using full kinetic chain (like a whip) to increase power and avoiding telegraphing your moves to increase likelihood of landing.
It looks like what they are referring to is called Fajin(en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa_jin ) in the context of the Chinese martial arts.
now i understand what bruce says to be formless, 3d the available space btw, just move it, forget the movement trajectory just be there
When I hear the term “relax” in reference to karate movement, I think of a whip, a whip is always relaxed, the holder moves the arm a certain way and transfers the energy into the whip. In the same way the Tanden is like the handle and if your body is relaxed, and you move the tanden vigorously the body can be relaxed and whip out.
This is the beginning
+1 I use the whip analogy when I teach. The handle of the whip is the hips, and the tip of the whip is the fist. I will sometimes bring towels to class and have students snapping the towels. The feel of punching should be similar to the feel of snapping a towel. The towel is relaxed. And then just tension at the end to snap it.
Whip concept is what I was taught in Choy Lee Fut(gung fu). I have seen fluid concept used in karate before.
He was talking about relaxing the antagonist muscles
Oh wow these old folks are genuine. They even go as far as to encourage watching youtube videos and learn through trial and error. Vastly different from schools that teach "my way or the highway". There's still hope in traditional martial arts to be "truth searching". Great video!
Well, this episode was one with tremendous amount of hard to digest information. It made me realize I'm somewhere at the beginning of the right path with absolutely no clue what's the next good step I should take. Like a year or so ago I tried to apply a few more relaxation-stiffness principles and they become quite incompatible with the way a kata performed by the today's competition standards should look like so I decided I'm doing it wrong and abandoned that approach. Most probably I was doing it wrong but now I'm thinking I should go back to that and re-think everything.
Thank you Sensei Yusuke, having all this information shared by the great masters you visit is of priceless value!
i think this is a fundamental difference between the theatrical performance of Kata and the efficiency for Kumite competition
the movement is optimized for different goals
@@uglystupidloser agreed. I went from karate to silat and one thing my teacher pointed out was my tendency to "strike a pose" when I did our practices. The forms may look nice but I was stiff and couldn't properly flow from one move to another or Generate sufficient power, which made my practice of the forms pointless from a combative perspective
@@LiShuBen Even in Karate, you're not suppose to fight like in katas... Katas are only a syllabus of techniques and let you train hidden principales of body parts and muscles enhancement, balance gain... Maybe it just did not correspond to your will of practicing. Pencha Silat is "bunkai"-oriented, so they think we fight with kata...
@@uglystupidloser Kumite competition don't show anything efficient... Light contact, only few basic movements, always the same. This is actual kumite competition, and you can see almost only beginners, just like in kata competition.
@@Yeino you're right, of course, but i just think it is very easy to misinterpret. a student that practices with kata, and knows only kata, may not even be aware of how or why his or her form is not optimized for sparring.
The principal across karate is reasonably easy to explain. Think about throwing a tennis ball (naturally). You put your body behind it and your body stays un-tensed until the moment you let go, where for a moment it tenses.
You throw a punch, you don’t lift a punch, so do not tense when trying to punch or you will simply slow it down.
Think in your head of throwing a tennis ball, but that tennis ball is your fist.
Think about how you throw a tennis ball (naturally) your whole body gets used.
Easy to understand much harder to perform.
Good videos.
Oss
🥋🙇♂️
Great analogy. But with throwing a tennis ball (or baseball) you don't even need to tense... You just let go somewhere along the path.
Very few techniques require any tension...the fist, maybe shuto or koken... elbows, kicks, receiving techniques, throws...none of those need a point of tension.
@@InGrindWeCrust2010 there is a split second of tension before letting go of the ball. It’s not a complete let go.
@@garymaguireuk All right. YMMV
For English speakers Sensei Rick Hotton explains these things in more detail. For teachers like this in the video, they tend to hold things back until you achieve some results in their methods but even with this their teachings is high quality for a "beginner " and will give you a decade or more of stuff to work on.
i just subscribed to him. he's great. thanks for suggesting him
Rick Hotton is an absolute legend. His hip analysis and teaching blow me away still years after first hearing it.
@@bassoskat where can I see it? Can you put some links here? Thanks in advance
Another sensei who do this is Peter Consterdine, they both made it looks so easy
Im a bjj practitioner but i enjoy watching things about karate. Such powerful moves
Actually Jesse Enkamp has a good video about re-defining "relaxation" in the context of martial arts
ua-cam.com/video/XKpPxmpnClw/v-deo.html
There is also a great deal of reluctance to reveal much, or perhaps an inability to verbalize it. Traditionally, one was in the dojo, day after day, training, observing, possibly being corrected, but the learning curve and methodology is different from the Western practice. He's getting a crash course. The concept of ''elegant dancing' reveals a historical connection between traditional Okinawan dance and martial arts.
I think most if not all eastern martial arts are really hard to describe. they need to be felt and understood. words are often insufficient and can be misleading.
My 2 cents worth. I started in karate when I was 16 and Wing Chun when I was 24. Totally opposites in all ways that matter. Most karate styles are hard while wing chun, done correctly, is mostly soft. Relaxation in key and hard to master. Little trick i found usefull was using weights, I used house bricks, and performing punches with them. This will force your muscles into a relax mode and will show immediate benefit when punching in relaxed mode straight after. It shows you what relaxed feels like, as you can think you are, but in reality you're still stiff. Repeat often. Also, when going into a stance, sink all your weight evenly and practice stepping like that. Lastly, find someone who can show you how to do chi sao. This will train your hands and arms to react automatically to strike their targets and repel incoming attacks. Finally, it is amazing the amount of power your body can generate while relaxed. Try my tips and let me know. Good luck.
I enjoy watching you practise with these two sensei. Very insightful.
I think they are also talking about the ability to change from one movement to the next. If you finish a movement and maintain tension it can be difficult to change direction afterwards, especially if you are tense through all motions. On the other hand, if you tense only at impact and immediately relax again, you can flow into the next technique much faster and continue the "ultra relaxed into moment of being tensed up" over and over without pause.
That's my interpretation at least.
This training seems very difficult. I think you captured the senseis sentiment perfectly when you said “if only it were that easy.” I’m sure his intention isn’t to come off as cold, but for the amount of time he has put into the practice, I understand his responses
This is absolutely new information (their Kihon). I'm willing to bet there are so many karatekas esp non-Japanese/Okinawa - trained that have reached dan 3 and up and still have never heard of this.
The way I think about it for taekwondo poomsae (which also in theory has a similar concept of relaxation), is to *use as little energy as possible to perform the technique perfectly*. I have to move my body to certain positions to make a particular technique, but along the way I need to eliminate all unnecessary movements and tension.
Remind me of old days ... I started practicing silat under my father and he trained me the eastern way, "do this" and left me repeating for months, then he corrected my gain by giving me different way of doing the form "you are too (fill any defect here), let's try this". No long explanation.
I am nearing my 50th birthday, and only started to understand his point 😅.
Training with these two grand masters would be an amazing experience.
This is very interesting. My Kung Fu system has a similar approach. Relaxation, without becoming floppy, is key. Power is there when needed. As you say - "balance" :)
Lol kung fu
It is like most traditional martial styles, their natural fighting stance is... standing there relaxed, because you must always be ready.
They are talking about absolute speed. Any unnecessary tension "feels strong", but as it's necessarily an antagonist movement it will slow you down. In the end the energy you can bring into your limb depends on its speed and the effective mass. Its real mass is always the same. Its effective mass is augmented a result of the reflexive stiffening upon impact (that brings the mass of the whole body into play for a moment, not just the limb). So the rest is really just about the most efficient movement to get the body in the right position with the maximum speed. Most attempts at "speeding up" usually result in recruiting unneccessary muscles to "help". Often "now with Kime!" only results in an execution where the antagonists are stiffened. That feels "strong" because it is more effortful. You're basically hindering yourself from the execution all the way through and that feels like more effort. That unnecessary recruitment of additional muscles will happen with any attempt at "doing" something, because "doing" requires to break motions down into parts and execute them. But what's optimal for each part of the motion, isn't the optimum for the motion as a whole. To get rid of that the motion has to happen "reflexively". Therefore the body has to do a motion unconsciously, thinking of it as one "whole", and that takes a ton of repetitions to develop the nervous system so it can just follow that intention.
Hello, I’m a Tai Chi practitioner, and it was really cool to see this lecture on Karate internals. Tai Chi students are taught that muscle tightness and tension impede the flow of Qi (Ki). My original Master taught us about the use of the figure 8 in Tai Chi forms as well. Your teachers are right about relaxation coming from the ground up, because the Qi flows from the ground up, and then back down in a circuit. In the system I learned, there are 3 Dantian. The most important of those is the lower Dantian, or Tanden- as Karate would call it. And yes, it changes over time. I don’t know how it is for Karate practitioners, but Tai Chi practitioners can roll their Tanden after they reach a certain level. Standing meditation helps with that. For information on standing meditation as it relates to Tai Chi, look up Zhan Zhuang. Once you’re comfortable in the standing meditation stance, you can feel the Qi flow better, and access meditative states. It’s pretty cool for internal development.
this is very much akin to Ryukyu Udundi and the older styles that the bushi did! Taika Oyata taught much the same thing going from hard to relaxing
I love that all the masters from various martial arts (especially chinese and japanese) with at least 30+ years of solid training under their belt has very similar idea about "relaxation" aspect. I so wish I have the opportunity to learn from them directly even for a short time..
when they mention "whip" it immediately reminds me of what Miyahira Tamotsu Sensei said and showed on another martial arts channel.
Relaxation comes with time, command of/practice of techniques, letting things “bake in”, and confidence in one’s capabilities.
It’ll be interesting to see an analysis between the shogen ryu approach and goju ryu’s approach. It seems like relaxed vs tensed but it would be nice to see a more detailed analysis, and input from anyone studying either styles.
So holding a belt in Wado Ryu and training twice a week formally and informally every early morning I watch this and think wow there is sooo much left to learn, excellent 👍🏻 thank you
貴重な体験を動画に上げて下さり
ありがとうございます。
いつも勉強になっています。🙏
Love how they r sharing they philosophy ,real masters with some modern teaching to share this on u tub just amazing
Genuinely Fascinating, a Completely different Perspective of Karate vs Wado, Goju and Shotokan.
this is some real knowledge and I too want to get this concept, so now i will be practicing this way more. such great information
Pretty cool watching these old masters
Love it. Wonderful teachers. You are very lucky.
Thank you for another interesting video. I haven't trained in martial arts since I was a kid, but I do miss it. Maybe if I get back into shape, I'll find a dojo here in Tokyo 🙂
just do it! 💪😁 have fun now, not later!
No reason to wait. Go to the dojo, try your best, that will help get you in shape. Train because it makes you feel good
Relaxation is relaxation. Speed is speed.
What they're talking about is the muscles tensing continued flow for make a movement. The relaxation state they're talking about corresponds to the minimal muscle effort you have to perform to complete the movement at full speed, with full relaxation on near muscles. They told you to relax your fist and your shoulders, and to relax as much as you could while your arms were performing a movement. But Tokashiki sensei told you that he practiced it very slowly at the beginning and then tried to speed up progressively. It's due to muscles unintentional contraction. If you're willing to perform it at full speed the first time you try, your muscles would tense unintentionally, and you'd lose speed and power. Not demanding too much and letting your muscles relax is the key. Tamaki sensei focuses more on stances and movements, talking about Saika/Seika Tanden. Tokashiki sensei focuses more on Ate/Uke Waza. They make a good teaching duo.
I've just remembered Tamaki sensei performing Naihanchi and Seisan, and it makes me think that their way of performing Katas is just like Funakoshi sensei and passed masters did it.
Concerning Ryo Kiyuna and the title of this video, i agree with them. Performing a Kata during a competition is far away from its comprehension and from its principles. Shiai is very different from Bujutsu. Flashy movement during a Kata competition does not represent the reality of a true fight. Neither it represents the wartime periods in which it's supposed to be used. That's why they compared him to a simple beginner.
so comprehensive... wow
@@uglystupidloser I've practiced for more than 30 years for now ;)
A good punch is one that lands on target.
A better punch lands on target with power.
A best punch lands with power and though they knew it was coming, they never saw it.
(the best one is usually well after some good punches, or a couple of powerful punches, that swelled their eyes shut)...hehehehehe.
The key is landing them. All landed punches are good. Perfection is when they don't land any, and you get to land the one that ends the conflict. Strive for perfection.
はじめまして！
達人が達人の域にいる事を窺い知れる動画ですね！今まで喜友名涼さんやゆうすけさんの形が迫力があってカッコよくて、老人の形なんてどこが凄いのか分からなかったけど見方が変わりました。
These videos have been vary educational. Thanks for doing them.
I think you are maybe understanding “relaxed” a little bit too literally. They do not mean relaxed as in “not engaged,” they mean relaxed as in “not tense.” There’s a pretty big difference, and similar ideas are found through out other forms of art creation such as dancing, drawing, and painting-even old ways of writing. It’s hard for young karateka to understand, I think, because it doesn’t feel very powerful even though it is very powerful, as well as being much faster.
... he is young, isn't he? we all have our attachments though. biases and habits are hard to shed
Late to the party, but I think he got the concept alright, but not the whole picture. Other Shotokan masters have had similar epiphanies. Egami of Shotokai had his at the Makiwara, you take out the heavy kime out of the techniques and they (strikes) potentially become very dangerous. Egami mentioned that Funakoshi didn't move like the way Shotokan was being taught, but moved very relaxed seemingly without any power, but you couldn't stop his blows and his blocks were like hammers. If you can find it, there's book by Arakaki The secrets of Okinawan Karate that goes into great depth of what theses two gentlemen were describing. but it's more than just becoming a whip, it's how you use the tanden to project power into your blows, like dropping the front knee a few inches, just before you hit , forces the tanden forward and thus projecting the whole body weight into say a punch, into a opponent.
I really respect their knowledge. I just wonder what their sparring looks like. It would be great to capture sparring sessions around Okinawa if you do a third season.
Excellent series!
That was fascinating. Be Relaxed enough to not telegraph your movements to a experienced opponent is a good goal to work towards. I also really like the segment with the heavy bag & how the instructor was slipping in his finger
i have found that studying many Chinese arts, especially Tai Chi styles, have greatly improved my Karate.
At 1:26, i was taught this when i was a blue belt student from my former shito ryu senpai 15 years ago. It's extremely hard and very counter intuitive. The 2 senseis and my senpai said the same thing. Practice it very slowly and continuously. The easier to describe from my own experience learning it is, it's a winding clock effect. My bows to the 2 masters.
I agree they are talking mostly about not tipping yourself off
I enjoy this so much, thank you so much for sharing this valuable information, there is nothing like learning from the old master directly. And there is more to the relaxation than "the result of a perfect balance between speed and the information given to the opponent" It is also the relaxation of the confidence of a movement that is so deep within you that has been etched both slowly and quickly, and that it has the accuracy to precisely stop a millimetre away from target, or to tense a millimetre away from impact.
The video was very impressive. Thank youuuuuu
I know exactly what they are conveying. Relaxation of your mind and muscles. It’s hard for anyone who has trained in a Japanese system to untrain what they have been conditioned to practise like.
Wow, great lesson. He was very fast; but so relaxed it was slow (to him). You’ll get it when you’re 50-60 (haha): “He who knows can not say; and he who says does not know.” Thanks for another great lesson: very inspirational! My Sensei talked about being in that zone when you’ve had a close to death experience and everything happens in an instant; but to you it’s going in slow motion. I’ve experienced this twice in automotive accidents; but how to train yourself to get there and apply it to martial arts, I cannot say. I’m already 58 so I may get another year or so to figure it out (60).
This was awesome
Yes, you are right. Give little info + relaxed natural speed...
You know, it seems as though they want the level of relaxed one can become during live kumite for kata training.
When they mentioned your shoulder dropping it brought to mind Lyoto Machida. He's from a Shotokan background even but he's very smooth and relaxed while fighting, so much so that he often leaves his hands open and kinda limp at the wrist.
You shoukd check out some of his high lights on youtube if you haven't to see what I mean.
A releasing of tension like water soft fluid and flowing
Force = Mass * Acceleration. The mass of your arm is static. So you can increase force by increasing acceleration. You have two sets of muscles at play. The muscles that making the punch happen, and the opposing muscles that will slow down the punch. Think isometric resistance. You want to have the opposing muscles completely relaxed as they will slow down the punch, decreasing the force.
Of course, you want to minimize telegraphing. Only forward motion. Your brain sees the target, and your hand is already in motion to hit the target.
Thank you for sharing.
From 1:42 to 1:57. That's Tamaki sensei being "high and mighty" to me.
Tells you, "ultimately you won't doing that" then basically after being asked for guidance, he goes "you'll get it eventually" and leaves you hanging.
Glad Yusuke Sensei ain't no noob. That approach is a recipe for a student to get hurt bad.
These guys have an ego to uphold
So, I do jiujitsu, and I think I understand what they mean, especially in the way he said "dancing". The fact that you said "information given" is also relevant.
Think about when you dance with a partner - there's a sort of "sensitivity" you have to have, in order to tell each other which way to move. You're not grabbing on to them really hard, you have to gently "connect" to them, to sense their next move. I think this translates to all martial arts.
When you're relaxed and sensitive, you can target your focus on the things to which you know you need to pay attention. This results in "speed", but relaxed speed, not tension. You can feel what the next move needs to be.
If you're tense and panicky, your mind is overloaded and can't process incoming information as well.
I'd love to hear thoughts on my thoughts. Thanks for the great video!
I imagine the concept of relaxation he is referring to is to develop your Karate into such a natural state of movement.
You can learn to grab say a glass of water as a child and as an adult, grabbing a glass of water becomes this state of automation as well, your mind and body are able to calculate circumstances such as catching the glass of water if it slipped out your hand before hitting the ground. The high level at which you can grab things requires a mere glance and state that's completely unconscious.
As compared to mainland Karate forms and practice, there is this entire ritual that seems to take place. Very rigid body movements, intensity and tensions. As well there's a "telegraph' because intent seems to create a conscious movement and preparation to strike.
Okinawan style balance, quick and flowent.
this method also works in boxing! never stiff up always relax your muscles and get into "Flow state" aka ultra instinct
There's an ultimate power between anger and serenty.
So, in my opinion, being totally relaxed doesn't generate speed and power nor being being totally tense. We must find "in between."
There are people who will say the pinky through the chain is easy and not used in fighting. But I would argue there are people who couldn't get inside a garage with a bicycle and a gps. So for the sensei to do that unconsciously is amazing!
Relax, relax, relax. Practice Shuto-Uke slowly with open relaxed hands. Imagine your forward hand gently guiding the opponent’s arm with your forward hand gently sliding down your opponent’s arm with a feeling of gentle control. You should be gently breathing out through your nose the entire time. Around the time I was turning 65-70, I would show up early to the Dojo, clean the floor, put away anything left out and then do 1/2 hour of slow gentle Shuto-Uke in all directions before class started. One day I took a folded Judo mat and put it against the wall. Folded the mat was 4 layers, each of 2”, so about 8” thick when against the wall. I started slow gentle Yokogeri-Kekomi against the mat. When I removed the mat to put it away, I saw that I had put a hole in the drywall behind the mat. LOL
Did you shift a chair there to hide it later?
@@mjokffsgfjs No, at that time I was helping to run group via Parks & Rec in Pismo Beach, CA. and we trained in the Vets’ Hall. I tried to be a good boy and called the city P&R Dept. and offered to pay for the repair, but they refused and fixed it on their own dime.
8:43 Dude. That's totes what I said on the last video. Dancing/figure skating. lol
What they're trying to tell you is that you're not going to completely get it until you're older. I remember when I was 35 everything I ever learned in school, life, etc., that I never "got", suddenly I understood. As if I downloaded programs my whole life and then suddenly at a certain age all those programs finally ran. It's just how life works. It's not really technique . It's something that's going to just become natural over time.
I think it's relative to age, where one cannot simply power through by muscle power, they find other ways to make the move as efficient and as strong.
The speed they were talking about is automatic response. When you are not presuming everything which means focus. But Focus is narrow sight so you can miss stuff. When you have no expectation you have all around you awareness instead of looking for something from a few choice places which are essentially educated guesses, but more than one location and you get startled or guess wrong. You have to change because you start in reserved motion. You are an arrow already pointed. If things go different than you presume you have to process that change in your Mind your direction. Awareness with Understanding and No Anticipating-leaves one to respond more appropriately without preparation. You are still water who can sense the location of any disturbance. Instead of conscious Processing and Thinking, use of Understanding and Awareness one might respond more appropriately, which allows for faster.-Ernie More Jr.
I really love this, I want to see more
XD these guys are awesome. Ok, one more bit of old-fashioned Chinese 武术 terminology, then. The meaning of "relaxed", or even "relaxed power" doesn't really translate, like you point out. So my teacher used 顺缠 about the preparation. And 逆缠 about the release. Mostly pictographic characters - the first one is a person standing next to a river. The recurring character is a silk-thread on a box. So you're gathering flow by the stream, perhaps.. The first in the second character is a spool unwinding on a 辶, to walk, from the box. As in you're not really releasing the stored power, you're letting it unwind and flow out. In the most basic sense: Breathing in and compacting, breathing out and releasing.
To begin with, that seems like a mechanical compromise to achieve a quick, untelegraphed strike. Or even an invitation to tense up and then throw a limp arm out and break your arm, a lot of people think.. But if you realize that well-trained, healthy muscles rotate around the arm, and how there's a series of different muscle-groups moving in sequence as you move through the whole movement range - it starts to make sense. To relax and control the release, rather than tense up and chuck out a punch from the shoulder, that has little stability and won't connect unless you're fighting a sack.
You're maybe not able to make an as big impact this way as you would, without much training, from a full swing if you measured it on a stationary object.
But a really fast and controlled punch that connects more than hard enough is still.. obviously.. a lot faster and more powerful than a gigantic, telegraphed swing. In addition, if you do it right, you're not telegraphing it. So he's not equivocating about the meaning of the words here.
The way I take speed to mean here is about the speed of completion of your move. Its like how one must choose between efficiency and effectiveness? Do you want to "get there fast" or do you want to "be done quicker"? I wish I was still young enough to attempt this, or that I had teachers like these in my youth. By now at 56 I would (theoretically) be finally "getting it right"
Yusuke-San congrats for bringing us all this knowledge. I think Shogen Ryu concept of relaxation is quite similar with the Asai Ha Shotokan. Shihan Asai developed a lot of kata based on Chinese styles and mixed with Shotokan, his style also keeps the traditional 26 Shotokan kata. I really would like to see you trying some Asai-ha specifics. Regards from Brazil.
I practice Shito Ryu in the States and all the older guys tell me to relax all the time; it’s definitely the biggest thing I have to work on. I guess I watch too many Sony Chiba movies 😎
thanks for these videos again, the relaxed is based on transfer of force in a machine (your body in this case) remember that F=ma by being relaxed the transfer of force from the movement of the entire body moves to the flying arm. So in ideal mechanical conditions (numbers are a little off for simplicity and I am ignoring loss of energy) if someone weights 75kg and is able to accelerate the body rotations (from what I remember) at 5m/(sec x sec) and their arm weights 10kg then the acceleration of the arm would be 75m/(sec x sec) so the force would be the same but the higher acceleration. I looked at the numbers and the acceleration of a boxer's punch is about 85m/(sec x sec)
Is there a video showing them practising Naihanchi this relaxed way?
it's interesting how he talks about "unconscious conditional reaction". it's actually very much like Bruce Lee was talking about in that scene from Enter the Dragon where at that moment, there is no i nor an opponent. i don't strike. "it" strikes on it's own. i love how these theories intersect in so many different styles no matter the difference in culture. it just goes to show that in the end, although there are many ways to express the art of fighting, it's still all the same message. :)
its all just a part of the same truth, in the end. we express ourselves through the movement of our bodies. and combat between people is a dialogue that transcends spoken language, but just as sophisticated, technical, and unique
A easy explanation is look at the systems core techniques like upward inward outward etc. Chop punch horizontal punch elbow etc. And instead of moving to any given point look at the structure in space and then instead of striking or blocking just move your movement to that same place. Then string a bunch of locations together and just move to each location through the form. It would make it positional instead of energetic.
It's interesting how the previous sensei thought your punches were really nice, but the senseis here seem to think every aspect needs improvement. Guessing it's just a style difference, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Yes, absolutely. This points out a major issue here - there is no objective criterion used here to assess the punch (maybe a speed measurement of the hand, or total force at impact for instance). And in its absence, the assessment is based on how a certain technique matches an “ideal technique” based on their style. Which is very dissatisfying.
Relaxation will speed up your movement, but as you said you can't be 100% relaxed, you need a balance between relaxation and tension, when you start the movement you start more relaxed to speed it up, them when you start to reach near to the contact point you start to tense it out to hit like a rock or whip and them after the and of contact you start to relax again. By the way I'm kung fu practicer and I think this is one of the most important aspects in martial arts.
I think you are right about not being 100% relaxed because if were then you would fall over like a wet noodle. I think its more about relaxing certain parts at certain times and allowing the momentum created from other body parts to drive the arms froward.
Both what they said and the demo about joint range of motion reminds me a lot about how the wrist moves while throwing a baseball, in fact the mechanics of throwing a baseball are a very similar to throwing a punch. Have you ever seen a pro throw a baseball in slow motion? Looks a lot like what the master was doing with his wrist but in reverse.
Rather then using pure strength they use whats called elastic recoil (maybe is what is meant when they say to relax). This done by creating the lengthening of muscles form the front foot and leg, up the hip, across the core to the pec, then the inner part of the arm and palm (imagine a rubber band that is attach to the led leg on the inner foot/thigh that cross all the way up to the opposite arm and palm and that it is being stretched) ,temporally separating the hips and trunk as well as the throwing arm to load up, then they just release the band.
here is the steps to it:
First they pivot the front foot and the hips with it as well as pulling the led arm back, then they transfer most of their weight to their lead leg, the trunk however rotates the opposite direction. Once it's all loaded they release, allowing the upper trunk to go the same direction as the hips and the throwing arm/wrist just follows creating a catapult like motion (like the movement with the wrist the master did only in reverse). I have notice that this movement has a lot the stances we do in karate when you break it down like this.
Punching is very similar your just not loading up as far back, its more like loading bow, however the sequence/ concept is the same and of course at the end you want to harden your hand at impact.
No, Sir, I can only refer to Soke Yoshimis videos, from which I understood: Balance comes from proper stance that enables better relaxation.Speed is the result of the two made properly. Yet, there is something that the Your masters have not said: - the double-hand nature of blocking performed during that waving motons of the body! To my observation, a complete movement is a combintation of two waves, when the first one is helping first blocking followed by the second wave completing the main block, with the other hand, of course. Just look up that video from SOke Joshimi in Italy and give it a try. Paul,67, best regards.
I may be way out in left field with this observation, but it reminds me of Tai Chi...specifically of the Chen style. In Tai Chi, there's like a 'rag doll' kind of relaxed state with a sudden explosion upon impact and an immediate collapse into relaxation. It's the yin/yang flow, like waves crashing on the beach and returning to formlessness of the ocean.
Speed comes from the smoothest execution possible, 起こりを失くす so not only is it harder to perceive, it is physically much faster as well. 自分で動きを停めずに相手の身体に全部預ける。でも、素振りだけでは理解しにくて、巻き藁をマメにやると解ってくる、素振りの時にどうしてもイメージトレーニングの関係で格好良くありたくて力んでしまってスピードが落ちてしまいます。速く感じるのは興奮しているからであって、実際に自分の身体の最大速度を出してとは限りません。人間は怪我を恐れる潜在意識でどうしてもブレーキをかけます。
Naka sensei of JKA also demonstrated this skill in the movie of "Black Belt" and real life. Hit opponent without intention, then the hit is fast and not easy to be sensed and blocked/avoided by opponents
I would like to see you train with Kiyohide Shinjo and Higaonna
Now I know why my teacher once sad I need to relax more.
Yeah I believe so I mean even Bruce Lee and boxers also do the same thing it's a relaxing Bruce Lee even said relax don't clench your fist or tighten your muscles until moments before striking lipsense
Yes! 100%
It's actually completely relaxing. Now the meaning; so at the start and end of the strike you will not be relaxing; the middle will be completely relaxed, like a whip. By end I don't mean when you hold but the point of impact.
I think when they say an experienced person will sense that, they basically mean the more relaxed you are the less you telegraph to the opponent. I could be wrong.
7:47 Wait to the last, on mainland Japan, or Here saying do not have the force already at the end before the last of the technique. Both say no tension during technique at your delivery place. The lack of tension is not be limp even when they say be very relaxed. Japan has earthquakes. The Earth is Hard and Soft or Soft Hardness. The force passes through a balance of hard-soft, like a whip. What they are getting at and saying to you seems like Force as Earthquake moves as Tsunami. With your mind on only the spot below the naval-above the waist You move with Understanding. Understand what you would like to be and the limbs obey the Will. Move with Though. Travel like the Wind.-Ernie Moore Jr.
I tend to think most non-Goju/naha-te styles tend to have this 'relaxed' element in techniques. Even in the Mainland versions of Shitoryu , esp the Shukokai of Tani and kimura, it is strongly emphasised, compared to the 'modern shotokan'. Possibly Gichin funakoshi's original 'Shotokan' showed much more relaxation than modern Shotokan, which had altered due to Gichins son and i think Azato's ideas. I experienced the difference when I trained in Shotokan , having first trained in Shukokai.
Here in this Okinawan style. it is very strongly emphasised, obviously. As is the motion of the centre of gravity.
Naha-te and Goju-ryu based styles only tense muscles during Katas, with the purpose of muscular enhancement. Practicing Sanchin (opening kata) lets you gain muscle, and also warms up your muscles, ready to be tensed at any time. Their method is a good one, but if practiced by a muscles lacky guy, he could injure himself willing to speed up while his muscles can't resist the full tension + speed. He could end his mouvement with an élongation, or even more. Goju-ryu practitioners obviously don't fight like in katas.
Going to the gym for gaining muscles quickly is counter-productive, because of the opposite muscles. If you gain muscles quickly, you'll lose speed as quickly. That's why they tend to say it takes decades to build this kind of skill, and that's why Goju-ryu practitioners train like this : harmonize the muscles development, even if it's a little bit slower than going to the gym. That's why Goju-ryu system recommends to first train Sanchin for several years before acceeding to other Katas.
As an example, look to Bruce Lee. His punch is still the world record for the quickest fist punch. Everyone is granting Jeet Kune Do to be efficient due to his skills. But have you seen his musculature, especially his forearm muscles ? That's why his punch impact was efficient, not only due to his speed, but also due to all the muscles contraction of his forearm. You could speed up as much as you can, if you don't have muscles, you're only launching weight with no contraction, and the resulting power will be proportionally be divided.
During Sanchin, you also reverse your pelvis bone, putting your Saika/Seika Tanden in your front axis to gain balance. Your knees also do the job, so the purpose remain the same as Naihanchi. The avantages of Sanchin are the muscles training and the breath training, whereas the avantages of Naihanchi are the lower back muscles and the short range Ura Tsuki work. There are also hidden parts into these trainings, but i let you discover all of this...
@@Yeino i know katas are supposed to be like a book, and the movements also help develop the necessary muscle groups, but i just think that karate loses its way as the years go on.
everyone has their own interpretation of what it should be. and it changes from teacher to student, generation to generation. [edit: and society to society]
... have you checked out Kudo? its a new style of karate that is a fusion of judo and jiujitsu.
it doesn't offer the... safe space for all people to train, but i think it offers many of the things that modern karate now lacks.
@@uglystupidloser maybe you're thinking about competition karate, or maybe recent karate styles, like Shotokan-ryu.
Talking about Kudo, it's a fork of Kyokushin-ryu, which implémenté Judo, BJJ, wrestling, English boxing, Muay Thai... Its purpose is clearly competition, so it's more a fighting sport than a martial art, even if it integrates martial arts techniques.
You think Karate lacks many things, but traditional Okinawan styles already integrates joint locks, projections, ground fight. Even the recent Wado-ryu is called "Jujutsu Kempo" by the Otsuka family. You've probably only scratched the surface.
I don't find my experiences training Shito-ryu Genbukai aka Demura-ha, anymore relaxed that my experiences with Goju-ryu, Shobayashi-ryu, ChungDoKwan and JiDoKwan which at the time, were strongly Shotokan based. I am confident that, if I brought these Shogen-ryu concepts into the Shito-ryu class, I'd be corrected out of them. What they are conveying here I encounter in my Taji Chen experiences which is a totally different concept of movement. Unfortunately, finding pure Shogen-ryu stateside is like the search for the holy grail. I know of one in San Diego. I've pretty much taken myself out of formal karate training and am focusing on kobudo now. Not enough world enough and time to master what I've come to see and understand. Lots of light, but not enough time to read.
@@zzdoc2 Don't worry for your choices. You're the only one deciding what suits the best for you. But basically, Karate and Kobudo have many things in common, at least for Ryukyu Kobudo...
does the old slap your chest while blocking to make your technique sound strong....
I've gotten more or less this exact lecture before 🙂. The way I interpret it is not that 100% relaxed means no muscular contraction, because that would make no sense, and I don't see it in terms of information either, that's a byproduct. I see it that the sensation of tension comes from engaging opposed muscle groups, working against yourself, and providing force vectors that work against what you are trying to do and in favour of an outside force once applied. We like how that feels because it feels like "working," how we feel when we work against a force like lifting a weight, and it supports an over-thought body positioning aligned with a notion of correctness instead of a typically less beautiful natural body positioning. Being 100% relaxed means moving with thoughtless naturalness, with very limited thought, so that you rely on the stable order and positions of the joints for strength, and use the muscle groups you need to make the motion without unduly engaging opposing muscle groups. I remember when my Sensei tricked me into moving this way, it would seem very easy in class but then I would be sore in muscles I didn't even know I had for days after lol. This is not how it was explained to me, Sensei took more of the keep trying, you'll get it approach, but this is just my best attempt to wrap my head around it.
A lot of things in life are like that. The light bulb goes on when you’re 50-60 years old. Playing a musical instrument is like that.
now i understand what bruce says to be formless, 3d the available space btw, just move it, forget the movement trajectory just be there
Riyo Kiyuna a beginner? Ya got my attention.
Think about when you are shooing a mosquito away from your face do you use exerted force or a gentle swaying of your hand on the return you maybe even able to catch the mosquito,gnat or fly with no effort. Stop asking for approval if you are better. A RyuKyu sensei of any stlyle will not compliment will usually say a little improvement better than before. This was taught to me over 40 yrs ago when I first began. It isn't that they are refraining to compliment but the arrogant mind unconsciously will stop at that point to improve and moves to focus on another skill, without mastering the most basic one. Remember that every day you put on your obi and it fades and tatters naturally because you have taken the time to reevaluate your own self in stance, breath control, slow motion and actual speed of Kata. This is the methodical training that very few accomplish because many get frustrated and resort to dojo hopping.
Common rule of athletic movement. Being able to move quickly. The body must be relaxed. Where you stretch your body from head to toe. And tense your muscle at the same time. You will deliver fast and powerful move and explosive punch and kicks.
But if your body is stiff and your muscles is tense. Then you won't be able to move quickly. You will lack of power in your punch and in your kick. And you will move like a robot.
Imagine an Olympic shot putter. If the shot putter have tense muscles. Then he won't be able to move fast or throw far. The putter must be relaxed to move quickly and fully extended in the delivery moment to throw far away. The same applies to a soccer player. To kick the ball far away. The soccer player must be relaxed to move quickly and kick the ball far.
It can not be done. If the muscles are tense and the body is stiff. Try to throw 10 pound stone. And try to kick hard on a soccer ball. Adjust your movement for triyng to maximize your delivery of power. Try to use your body correct.
Are both masters the same Dan? I can’t figure who may be a higher rank.
At 3:30 a Ninja appeared in the mirror.
Funny how these old tigers are talking about the same thing the Tai Chi guys try to talk about, but can actually demonstrate some functional combat ability and power even in old age like my Sifu. Respect to the old generation for sharing their secrets with the world before they pass and the knowledge is lost forever.
Have you ever really banged something like a cupboard ect .when you flinch and pull your arm back to avoid something.
It is totally loose as you pull it back with out thinking.
Do you remember the impact and bang sound your elbow or body part made accidentally hitting something unintentionally ?
Do you remember how quick it moved ?