The Kii Three ain't kiidin' around.
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- Опубліковано 3 гру 2021
- Written review/data can be found here:
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Thanks a lot for the brilliant scientific effort Erin!
My wife and I listened to these speakers at an audio show recently.
We were both in tears after listened Jacob Collier’s album on these.
Now we’re saving our hard earned cash to get a pair of these.
Did they provide enough bass? I want to get a pair for my living room.
Fantastic review, as usual.
Brilliant review. Thanks heaps Erin.
Awesome video. Thanks for what you do, the industry needs you!
Enjoyed the review which correctly emphasized the cardioid nature of the speakers.
I mix and master on these every day and the translation to other systems has been effortless. A professional tool that is just as impressive as it is precise.
Thx a lot 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
@@KiiAudio No, for real, thank you!
Wow! Fabulous job you have done here. Brilliant video. That speaker features insane engineering.
I appreciate it!
That On-Axis response is insane. How I would love to have a pair in my home studio!
Possible…we have more of them 😂
@@KiiAudio Never Know. You never regret buying quality!
@@airtow6766 I earned back the price within 6 months, taking on projects I would never have tackled on previous monitoring and my clients are just really happy. I'm certain they have paid for themselves many times over in my case.
I'm happy that manufacturers are caring again about time and phase aligned speakers. I have large Dunlavy coffins from ~ 25 years ago that are magical. With first order crossovers, they have power limitations and a very narrow sweetspot, but they sound sublime in their window. Nice to see modern speakers, with much better dispersion and power characteristics also delivering time and phase aligned natural sound.
Aren't they grand? I recently acquired a pair of SC-IVs that are the best-sounding speakers I've ever heard.
@@gregsgoatfarm But don't you find that shocking? 25 years later and there haven't been any dramatic improvements!?!? It's not like John was a magician. He was an AES audio engineer who cared deeply about creating a product that measured exceptionally well in an anechoic chamber. One would have thought that there would be dramatically better transducers available today with which to build better speakers. The Kii and the Dutch & Dutch feel like a step in the right direction.
@@HoopsnGitfiddles
Congrats on having the Dunlavys.
Interesting points, however there has been many significant advancements since then. Magnetic designs of the motor, cone materials and techniques have grown greatly.
It's just that the Dunlavys were so damn well executed, they stand the test of time so well.
There's mastering engineers that still utilize Dunlavys to this day.
Erin you mention you planned to compare this to the D&D 8c, where did you land on the comparison? Should the Genelec 8361 be in the comparison?
This. Would love to see this three way comparison… no pun intended :)
I bought a second-hand pair of these - after hearing them in a studio.
They are unbelievably good... just amazing sound - all from one pair of great looking boxes.
Used with an Innuos Zenith II SE and FLAC files. Minimal system- maximum sound.
The Kii Control is indispensable though - and allows the use of an Apple Remote..
I think I'll stop with this system - I have yet to hear anything better for the money.
As a friend used to say... "That'll do!"
Erin nailed the review.
I have had a pair for around 3 years (home hi-fi setup) I thought they were pretty expensive but, in reality, the price-performance ratio is excellent. Killed my GAS stone dead. 3 years on, i still cannot believe how good they sound, every single time I use them.
... and I should have said "thanks +++ for the great review". I have heard all sorts of hi-fi forum tosh about the Kiis, the large majority from people who haven't actually heard them.🤣😂
@@sobellfanatic the best audiophile reviews come from people that never heard them 🤣
Do they provide enough bass?
@@freddymcculloch6811 Easily. Still loving mine - longest "honeymoon" hi-fi for me. Best speakers I've had at home, ever, by a long way.
@@sobellfanatic Just curious, what was your previous system? I'm about to buy a pair. I'm not a big subwoofer fan, I'm glad these have a lot of bass. :)
Love those blue gloves. That tells you how special Erin thinks a speaker really is.
Or how scared to death I am. 🤣
Or just showing respect to the owner.
@@roofpizza1250 Yes , thanks for stopping by to point that out.
@@ErinsAudioCorner
For reals!
Blue gloves for the scientist, white gloves for the TV guru FOMO, all checks out.
Hi Erin , great videos 👏👏👏, I’m looking for a definitive hi end speakers, for prod mixing and mastering, have u ever tested big atc or Pmc? I’m curious if they sound better or worse than kii. Between Dutch and Dutch 8c and kii three, kii is the winner ? Does kii play really loud and flat till 25hz? Or I will need also the bxt ? Thanks you so much, your videos is amazing 👏👏🔈💎
Your reviews are so good ! I like the way you are developing your thoughts and the way you are vulgarising the audio topic. Having real data are helping too ! Thank you for the huge amount of work
hello erin, incredible vid ! just on the cardioid definition : it doesn't specify frequency, only polar characteristics. i've personally set up cardioid that were ccardioid down to 40hz (ok that was with multiple subwoofer rows spaced roughly 1.8M/5.5FT from each other).thanks for this review i waited for it
I didn't intend to imply that. I was just stating the transition range for this speaker where it transitions to a more cardioid pattern. Not sure if that's what you meant. Thanks for the reply!
Oh, and a clever video title, too. I kii what you did there. :P
Which would be your recommendation for an acoustically untreated room (35m², 370 sqare feet)? This, the Dutch & Dutch 8C or s.th. else?
The KIIS will have plenty of output. If you want to play real loud (95db+) then Dutch nicht be better. But in real life use the KIIS will be my choice every time
what should we have to set in PC features to have direct digital music way to these speakers when we use USB connection to kii control?
I love my Kii Three BXT! 3 years and I’m as happy as ever. Thanks for the great, unbiased, in-depth review, Erin.
Thanks for the response.
hi erins! i have been using for a couple of hours the kii three.
audio is superb but i have some issue in the setting.
when i plug my old monitors, normal krk with subwoofer to the universal audio sound card and i play piano there is no latency. or not noticeable.
when i plug the kii three directly to the audio card just like the krk the audio is barely audible, volume is 70% less or more than krk. this means i have to crank up the volume of the card and even that doesnt work.
to solve this i plugged the control. using it allowed me to hear the kiis on high volume. but it added a very noticeable lag when i play piano, volume is still a issue as i do have to play around to achieve the same as the krk.
i just tried everything i could to eliminate it. got rid of the controller and plugged the kiis again direcley to the soundcard did not work. volume so so low i could now hear very vell.
could you help me in this?
- solve lag
-solve volume
i am using them as main monitors
Heard this pair of speaker with BXT in the hifi show few days ago. The depth of soundstage is great and at the same time the image focus can be very up front for the vocal. Really great speaker. But only its build in PEQ the bass resonance at some frequency and caused that room sometimes resonance/vibrate. Would love to have one if I got the money😂
Hi Erin, for un-treated listening room, which will you choose between this Kii Three and coaxial Genelec 8351/8361?
The coaxial probably because no phase funnyness from diff drivers
Erin - have you heard other more affordable bookshelf speakers who have this flat soundstage you described?
You made me realize I hate my bowed deep in the center soundstage and want flat :)
The Kefs I mentioned have a nice symmetrical stage. Others aren't terrible. It's just that when you hear a speaker like this that *doesn't* have that kind of behavior, it stands out in a good way. At least to my ears.
Thanks for your hard work Erin. I heard these at Axpona I believe when they first came out. The person doing the demo had me step to the side and hear the rear of the speakers as they played. Crazy how there is no sound projected to the sides and rear. Not sure if you tried this in your demo, the measurements sure show the cardioid pattern.
I have done this for other cardioid speakers... really neat thing to hear. Especially when you can do it with a 'regular' monopole speaker back to back. :)
Great review.Do they measure better than the JBLs 308 Mark 1 though😄
Nice work . Are you going to get a set of mk2 Exmachina's?Either model
Coming very soon.
Killer with 2 "ii" s... Awesome.. 😎
@Erin's Audio Corner
Erin, your reviews and on-camera persona continue to get better and better. 👍 And this was a fantastic review of a relatively complex speaker design.
I was really curious how the NFS would interpret the measured data in the LF due to there not being a consistent close boundary behind the speaker when on the NFS platform.
I figured that the side-firing drivers would still do their intended duties for the most part, but wasn't sure what effects the rear drivers would have on the measured response due to the absence of a nearer and consistent boundary behind the speakers. Is there anything of interest to note in that regard?
Obviously, quite a few mixing and mastering engineers are using these, and by the results of this data, for good reason.
IME the latency would be extremely off-putting while monitoring tracking sessions, at least in the Kii's "Exact Phase" mode. So I'm not surprised that Bruno and the team determined that a Minimum Latency mode must be an included option, even with a slight hit to overall performance.
But as you stated, this hit in performance is mainly in regards to their *imaging* and *image focus* within the stereo soundfield.
This makes perfect sense, because when you're tracking the majority of recording sessions, you're not at all concerned with spatial image placement, as 95% of your tracking of each instrument & vocal is done on one channel/in mono.
You're just trying to capture a clean and accurate representation of the performance of each musician or vocalist...with maybe a bit of your preferred special sauce on top. The soundstage and spacial aspects of the music will be attended to in the mixing stage where this latency is not an issue.
So ultimately, this active speaker has the capability to be implemented across all areas of music and TV/motion picture soundtrack production, as well as incredibly high-end home HiFi and home theater listening, and still in a relatively compact package. :) I can only imagine what the optional BXT bass modules would add to the experience! 🤪
With all of the incredible products that Bruno has envisioned and brought to us over a relatively short time span, I consider him to be a modern day wizard and a true gift to the advancement and enjoyment of the entire audio community. Well done, by Kii *and* Erin!
Thank you so much 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Wait are you saying this speaker is amazing but the sound imaging is mediocre?
_"You know, it _*_is_*_ possible to not dine out for around seven years or so",_ I say to myself...
I am currently 1 year in on that same program or "mission", along with the ramen noodle diet, in order to acquire a set of Børresen Acoustics model 03 loudspeakers, haha. Heard them and have to have them! :-P
Watching
Hi Erin, I've been re-watching this and comparing to the Dutch & Dutch 8C. The latter was tested at much higher SPL in your in-room test, and the same with the on-axis response measurement. Could you say a few words about what decides those SPLs used? The Dutch & Dutch curve at 30 Hz, 108db SPL, the Kii Three 81dB SPL. I know there are the more standardized or normalized Harmonic Distortion tests at 86 and 96dB SPL which enables comparison. Are the in-room response SPL differences based on any metric, such as "max within the distortion envelope" or is the in-room test SPL more arbitrary? Thank you for a great channel and site. You should have at least 100 000 subscribers.
I’ve had mine for a couple of years now. Amazing what they can do considering their size but I’m going back to ATC. They’re speakers that blow your mind when you first get them but you gradually learn to hate them. With ATC you just love them more the longer you own them.
Which ATC monitors are you going with? I'm thinking about getting the ATC SCM45A
The results speak for themselves - looks excellent! Also, first.
You won! 🏆
Holly, this spkr is ..., more than nice, and this level of engineering is rather special. Forget the 2k dip, and the little extra energy octave above, as LR4 acoustic crossovers exhibit this behaviour in power response. 10dB gain at 20Hz - yeah, I sure like it, even though it will compress when pushed too hard. As for the tonality, and we are talking flat line, many say majority of the Seas Alu dome tweeters are touch spicy, so it could be possible explanation why Erin knocked the 2dB down in the treble. I love the really large radius round over instead of sharp edges, as it helps a lot with tweeter diffraction issues, and possibly might have some effect on imaging (I'm not in my 20s anymore). Waiting for the comparison with Dutch&Dutch.
If klipple doesn’t allow you to measure w the speakers “close” to the front wall, how does that bias or affect your klipple measurements?
Why do we still call them bookshelf speaker? Monitors or stand mount.
A few seconds after the 16:00 mark you mention it being among the top three speakers you’ve measured. I’d love to know what the other two are…
Dutch & Dutch 8c, Revel F226Be are the two I was thinking of at the time. The Perlisten S4b is another great performing speaker (though, bass limited by design). There are other active speakers such as the JBL 708p that measure quite great as well. But I'd have to sit down and look back through the data. The ones I mentioned here, though, are the ones that I typically keep at the front of my mind wrt measurement performance.
@@ErinsAudioCorner if had to choose between Dutch & Dutch & Kii 3, which one in your opinion ??
Thank you for your awesome insight.
Glad it was helpful!
Erin, what is your opinion on how this compares with the JBL M2?
I don't know that I'd even try to compare them because they are so vastly different in design.
Wow that frequency response is INSANE! almost perfect...
thanks for hard work
Weird question but what are the posters that you have on the wall behind you?
KLIPPEL posters.
Hi Erin, are you still providing your data for the Olive's score calculation? It would be nice to know it for the Kii
I don’t. But I think Pierre does on his site. I sent him the data.
@@ErinsAudioCorner thanks for reply, which is Pierre's site?
7.7
pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/Kii%20Audio%20Three/ErinsAudioCorner/index_eac.html
The more narrow the energy of the throw, the less is acoustics messing up the sound, so that is definetly a + at least in the studio world :)
Thanks Erin,, 👍👍
These or D&D 8C for mastering music in studio environment ?
Either works perfectly
Those look B.A. Erin , Thanks for the video !
You bet!
Would be interested in seeing one of the new Tannoy Gold5 studio monitors measured and reviewed, I'm very curious as to how they stack up against the competition at a similar price point
I'd like to see that too. Compare them to KEF and Kali coaxial monitors.
You are asking to compare the current state of the art of loudspeaker design (20+ k€) from an objective perspective, with some cheap monitors, of them only kalis report some measurements
@@antoniomarsicola8608 I literally said I was curious about how they stack up against the competition "at a similar price point" . I'm not asking for them to be compared to state of the art speakers. If you're confused the current line of Tannoy Golds are budget monitors that sell for under $350 USD a unit
kii 3 vs dutch and dutch, which one do you prefer?
In this video I said that would come in a later video. 👍
I love that profile pic
@@ErinsAudioCorner but did it? Or still stay tuned?
@@davids2214 life came at me hard this year, man. Real hard. So, not yet.
@@ErinsAudioCorner I know it did! Just curious! All the best to you
2:15 damn you Erin now I have to get my pen and paper out and start taking notes 😅😂. Wider soundstage usually sacrifices imaging. I wish I had 10% of Erin's Knowledge. I think the channel should be renamed Erin's Audio Block. He is way more than just one corner, he is at least four corners , but he is definitely not a square, so hence Block.
Hey, man, it’s hip to be square! 😂😂😂
Well, Erin will certainly need to acquire a city block size warehouse soon in order to accommodate all of the gear that he has in the queue to be tested, as well as all of the equipment that has already been tested and is waiting to be returned and/or sent on to the next in queue. Otherwise he'll be working himself into his own Corner, LOL.
And I hope that his poor kid's bed and he & his wifey's own bed don't end up being propped on top of and surrounded by towers of speaker boxes and other gear as the garages overflow, ha!
At this rate, at the very least he's going to need a few shipping container storage units in his back yard and a shipping logistics manager. :-P
I'm totally convinced. I will buy the Kit Kat!
YES!!!!
How do these compare to the perlistens?
Entirely different animals.
Interesting speaker. I wonder if you get some of the same effect with speakers built in to a baffle wall; no back wave, no baffle step compensation needed.
Looking back over time, the trend in my time line of speakers gets more directional. Bose 901's, EPI omnidirectional towers, full size Magnaplaner Dipoles, AR conventional cone and dome, JBL controlled directivity horns. Not a grand planned progression, just changed what became important to me over time. So many trade offs.......
You can get the same effect using in wall, however its expensive to build speakers in wall.
You can also make the baffle very wide (Likw grimm LS1 series), but that makes them big.
The kii started to overcome those issues without sacrifices to tbe dispersion.
@@hidjedewitje If I were to do a dedicated HT setup again, a baffle wall with an ATS screen would be a given.
My HT setup is in an open plan living space right now; the size and shape of the place and WAF constraints rule out doing anything like that.
You would lose output in the sub-bass but other than that it should be better on all other fronts.
@@abdo-dr1tu why would you lose output? You have an infinite sized baffle. Wouldnt you gain 3dB?
@@hidjedewitje because you can’t corner load the speaker anymore. The Kii have 4 6.5 inch woofers working together below 70Hz, an in-wall won’t have that.
Hi Erin, You should do an array of subwoofers in a cardioid pattern and take the measurements in your Klipple system. I have two arrays of three subwoofers in a cardioid pattern. As you said, It reduces the back energy to the wall and increases the front-firing energy. I have the middle sub looking backward with polarity inverted and set the delay to cancel the frequency that I want, usually below the 80Hz. By the way, these Kii speakers are awesome. Keep up the great content!!
90ms time Delay… this speaker needs faster DSP systems 🙂
Displays need to be able to delay video for up to 100ms, user selectable.
I'm not sure how much faster DSP would help. It will always need some delay in order to get that phase exact step response.
If you look at the step response of the minimum latency setting, the speaker has to somehow align the wiggly signal up until ~10ms with the signal at 0ms in order to get the phase exact response. Since the speaker cannot look into the future the only way to do that is to delay the other parts of the signal so they arrive at the same time. I don't know enough about DSP filter design to know the minimum latency you need in order to achieve that alignment, but you definitely can't get under 10ms with this physical design, and I think you need even more to implement the filters that correct the response. There may still be some margin between the minimum possible delay and 90ms that they could improve with faster processing, but I suspect it won't be much.
Lilian is correct. Fast DSP has nothing to do with it and will not help. You can turn linear phase off if you wish to have lower delay but It will impact the sound quality some.
So, Erin, about the linear response at 102dB, I think you have the wrong interpretation. The huge dip at 100Hz is because a cardioid speaker does not pressurize the entire room, it only sends base forward, hence if you want to listen loud, you have to boost the low frequencies using EQ. I think it's not a coincidence that the manufacturer has provided for this feature.
Why is this not an issue at 70Hz? Because at 70Hz the speaker is no longer behaving like a cardioid.
Keep in mind, I'm just a curious guy posting comments on the internet, I'm far from an expert.
Hey. I own these speakers. The eq does not help with loudness, the headroom of the speaker is the limiting factor. Placing them next to a wall means you can attenuate the bass coming out of them, giving you more headroom. Either way, they are not designed for extremely high levels without BXT. edit: They are plenty loud for me, I would never need more loudness that 90db in my studio as I think deafness is to be avoided!
" moid " =D !!
what are the best speaker for home studio in you opinion?
I like these and the Dutch and Dutch 8c.
@@ErinsAudioCorner thanks! They are better looking and cheaper. Still seem to me bass is better in the kii.
@@ErinsAudioCorner how would they perform vs ATC SCM50 ASL
@@ErinsAudioCorner i opted for the kii three at the end! but have some issue... as stated in the new comment
Erin needs a hook up at Kit Kat❤❤😅🤣
It’s a wonderful speaker for my liking a small to medium room I am a pressure guy so not my type unless u buy the bxt module. Wondering what performance will happen if they use Purifi woofers for next version
I havent heard DD8c but that speaker should pressure room better. My gut says
I can guarantee you this has enough bass, I’ve heard it without bxt and it had veryyy good bass
Dang son $14k is sure a bargain for them there speakers.
How can we get Kii to send you the new Seven’s?
You know, they said they would. I should follow up.
@@ErinsAudioCorner great! There are zero reviews which is odd to me
I wonder what the market is for 10k and up speakers, 200 pair might be on the optimistic side. Dunno.
Judging by serial numbers, it’s a lot higher than that.
The people who work the same jobs as Porsche enthusiasts but like hifi instead (30s age demographic on the peak of the bell curve). There are thousands upon thousands of these guys in the Bay Area alone who make the bulk of purchases at the Genelec dealer up in Marin.
@roof pizza
These speakers would have never even been considered for production if marketing research suggested such low sales numbers. ;) It's orders of magnitude higher.
I have a ~$10k speaker system... $20k if it was new. A friend down the road has a ~$10k system.
There are at least five other guys withing 30 miles of me that have even more expensive systems. Some of them have two, and one has ~6 several thousand dollar speaker setups in his house.
...and this is just who I know of in Utah.
@@stevenswall Never seen a 10k set of speakers in a house in my life not to mention the competition from other manufacturers and next years bigger and better models esp with modern electronics/dsp. 10k on speakers fits a 30k plus system at least. Most people are barely beyond a soundbar if they've even done that.
Erin can you confirm whether the spin data is with 2db less treble on the tone control or not?
Per my write up:
“The reference plane in this test is between the midrange and the tweeter. Through some testing I found the most nominal response to be with the tweeter level down 2dB so the results given below are with this setting in place. Boundary controls and otherwise, all settings are ‘default’.”
@@ErinsAudioCorner better put that in red and bold then I can’t be the only one who missed it :P
@@ErinsAudioCorner Thank you for the review. I really respect your work, and this is once again great data!
I wonder though if it is a good idea to go down the path of tweaking settings for the best response. Tweaking the objective measurements based on subjective experience seems hard to argue for, since the measurements are no longer objective. Tweaking to optimize some chart also has issues: for example you tweaked for a flat on-axis response in this case, but it's hard to tell how this has altered the the in-room response, and since you included tweaks I can't tell what the in-room response would be without those tweaks. In any case, tweaking introduces a subjective element, because you choose which corrections to apply, and there can always be debate about which tweaks should be applied to which speakers for a fair comparison.
I guess it boils down to which question you're trying to answer with the objective part of the review: how well does the speaker perform anechoically with default settings, or how well can it perform after tweaking the included options in the DSP. However, since the DSP is also intended to correct the in-room response, I'm not sure if using it to tweak the anechoic response will tell us much, and reviewing the DSP features to correct the speaker in a room could be a whole different review by itself.
Would it be possible for you to share the charts without the 2db correction or do you only have the measurments with it? If you include both in the written review people can know both how the speakers perform by default, and how they can perform with your tweaks to the settings. Regardless, I appreciate the fact that you're transparent about how you performed the measurements such that readers already know what they represent exactly.
@@Kili42 I understand. But this is something I also do for other speakers where I can. For example, even in my review of the cheap PreSonus and Mackie “monitor” speakers I did the same thing where I toggled the bass/treble knobs to find a happy medium. If it’s a simple adjustment that is right on the speaker like this then I see no issue. Breaking out individual PEQ bands via a separate DSP would obviously be a step too far.
As for providing the default state, I do. That’s in the “tonal adjustments” settings I discuss. The black line is the default and you can see the extremes that the bass/treble settings yield.
These things are stated clearly in my reviews so people will know exactly what I did. 👍
I was going to say...that looks like it's trying to copy the 8c...
Stay is a good song, nice bass drum sound. Check out the bass in the song "Drowning" by Mick Jenkins.
Listen to the bass on Bela Flecks’ Flight of the Cosmic hippo or James Blake Limit to your love on the Kii and your jaw will drop through the floor. It’s amazing what thes bookshelves are capable of. And the notes stay articulate. The only thing disturbing is everything else in your room resonating😂
Liebes Team, wie kann man einen Lautsprecher bewerten ohne einen einzigen Ton abzuspielen. Sorry, aber das einzige was zählt ist Klang. Das andere sind technische Werte die jeder nachlesen kann.
wow - it happened :)
If I had the money, I would!
„Are you tryin‘ to seduce me?“
14:50 What do you give up with coaxials? They would have solved the problem with ZERO inherent drawbacks that I'm aware of for normal use cases.
There are a few companies that refuse to use them and spread misinformation.
Narrow dispersion: this is not inherent to a coaxial driver. Some are wider, some are more narrow. Nothing stops them from wider or narrower radiation.
Air gap: Genelec has solved this, there aren't audible diffraction issues with competently designed coaxials.
Doppler distortion: not an issue in three ways.
One single issue: If you need a main monitor with massive SPL capabilities, then the tweeter in a coaxial driver may not be able to fit a large enough magnet and a compression driver might be more effective for SPL.
I'd like to hear from Kii or Dutch & Dutch why they chose not to fix this issue with their speakers. I'd love someone to prove me wrong, but based on what I've seen of objective measurements and heard subjectively, every multi way speaker without a coaxial driver is inherently flawed, and it's either laziness, cost savings, or prioritizing SPL.
These or d&d 8c?