Good fast showcase. Interesting to see them in action. I have the feeling the rules are all over the place in the book, more a question of editing rather than of completion.
Possibly irrelevant data point, but in WFB, circa 2000s, heavy woods could only be negotiated in skirmish order. They also had completely impassable woods and woods that did nothing. I don't like either of those, but breaking up marching order (in addition to disrupting charges) seems like the right way to go. Excellent video and miniatures, as always.
Woods: use flat green cut out construction paper taped to the table for the woods (instead of miniature trees). When your miniatures move "thru" the woods section, they go at half speed.
Peasant Infantry (aka Knaves, Louts, Tillers Of Soil, Choppers Of Wood, Haulers Of Water, etc.) were problematic in most Medieval Armies. SOMEBODY had to do the cooking, feeding, maintenance, and the other thousand and one things to keep the Nobles in fighting trim. Mostly though, when it came to the actual fighting, they were used to bulk out the numbers of troops and to be sword/arrow fodder for the higher quality soldiers, or ridden down like grass by anyone who had a horse. There were exceptions to this general rule, of course ... the Swiss, the Scots, the Welsh, and some of the Fresian/Dutch... but for the most part, they were not effective on the battlefield, until the introduction of the pike. No doubt, the Necromancer that raised this bunch, will in the future, avoid the contents of the local village graveyards... and seek out the battlefields of yore, in an attempt to field better troops! I thought that the conclusions you reached when the rules got fuzzy, were logical and reasonable. 2022 is looking good!
Scalability - thank you for reminding me of this concept. I may be using the word wrong here, but I am referring to ability in wargames for an individual model to represent multiple individuals on the battlefield. This allows the player to transition between large battles and skirmishes without increasing total number of models owned.
Lovely bright models, and fascinating rules. You and Purple Druid are doing brilliant wargames archeology! I'm with you on the fatigue rules, it's something you don't often see on the wargames table, except as something rolled into a morale stat. Treating it separately from morale makes the game more about resource management than simply rolling dice, which is excellent! I'll have to see about porting it into some of the rules systems I already play.
Stargrunt has a separate Fatigue level for each unit, although if memory serves its primary function is to alter the speed at which a unit's morale breaks down. It would be interesting (but maybe too fiddly) if it also affected their physical capacity on the table. It's a shame, but so much of the mechanical shorthand used in company-level and smaller wargames completely misses some of the most significant advantages and disadvantages real units had in warfare.
@attention Fatigue is a very interesting rule. I've got two games in & it hasn't been a factor, since they only lasted 3 or 4 turns. I forgot about Stargrunt, haven't played that in 25 years! I'm struck by the comment about Resource management, as that concept is so important in OD&D/AD&D. Food for thought!
@@WargameCulture Though not explicitly mentioned as such, escalating fatigue seems to be geared toward campaign. I have experimented a lot with attrition rules to drive tough decisions on a wargaming campaign, but rarely have had the opportunity to play more than three games in a row. A bunch of newer games (A Billion Suns and Malestrom's Edge come to mind) allow the reintroduction of destroyed units as reinforcements, but these still seem focused on one battle rather than the long-term considerations of a protracted campaign.
@@attentionspanlabs I am learning this system SPECIFICALLY to play a longer campaign, using the Solo Wargaming rules by William Sylvester. I also have the Dawn of Battle game that @Hethwill Wargames used in his solo game video series. I am not sure how I am going to tie it all together...yet.
A long long time since I saw those rules on a table top. We changed from these to the purple SELWG LOTR rules for fantasy but I did have a copy of Swords and Spells (D&D mass combat) but both had way too many tables for an evening game 😱 😂 Peasants need 7+ to move (it's just above the action table on its own)
Found that while making my own QRS. Also took me a while to notice that cavalry are very maneuverable. They halve all of the penalties of formation changes. That makes them wicked flexible.
I believe it. The timing checks out. These guys were all producing rules at about the same out of the same culture using the same assumptions. The only experience I have with WRG rules is limited to DBA armies and hordes of the things. Which, as You know, are stand-based, and use a lot more pushback mechanics then casualties.
Looking good sir. Figures look great. Great video. Feeling inspired. Still have my D&D pamphlet/books from last century. Always wanted a copy of Chainmail. Most excellent video. Thanks. Trying to paint some figures, for first time, but have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, looked at videos, but does not compute😢. lol. Also arthritis n carpal tunnel (n fat fingers) make a clean paint job not easy. 1. Primed. 2. Base coat of one color. Cowboys (15mm) in brown, Orcs in grey(28's+-. They got mail.) Painting GHQ micro armour, so much easier. Lol.🚜 Cannot find a tank emoji so the tractor will have to do... So is punching cardboard n trimming corners.
I still remember the joy of my first dry brushing and washing working out. It felt like alchemy. You don't have to be an expert to produce something that works on the table. Good colour choices, thinking how far from your eye the models will be, attention to bases, and lots of cheap, plastic scenery, intended for the little ones, to complement your artistic endeavours. Good luck!
Just started the video so apologies if you reach a conclusion but I *think* the line and column distinction is for when the table is more populated and, say, moving between some buildings or along a gulley would require a change of formation. So less direct benefits and penalties and more the logistics of fitting figures into spaces.
has your camera been upgraded? this is really nice and bright and detailed and paint jobs! considering your filming 15mm! they almost look 28mm, game wise seems a bit mathys for me, I almost recorded a onepage rule game last night which is super fast in comparision and they had some additional optional rules for fatigue rules i need to check out
I, for one, will say I hope you really enjoy Chainmail. I have played it in the past and it really is the clunky, chart driven system that has the rage of the 60's and 70's. The games of Chainmail that I have played, you really need a GM to be doing the math while the players were doing the movement, dice rolls and counting figures. I found the max of eight units per player once you really were use to the system, anything beyond that really slowed the game. The lack of easy to read writing, indexing, or QRS really hurts the game, but the games of today had 50 years of progress to be a better system. I really do like reading some of the original game designs (the various books from John Curry's History of Wargaming Project).
Hi. I just discovered your channel via the last episode of Daniel's Bandit's Keep podcast. It's great, I'll look into your Chaimail playlist! Quick question: do you use the Irregulars miniatures? or else? Thanks again 😀
I use whatever I can find. Irregular figures are best for line troops, though. They don't have quite enough character for...er, characters, if you know what I mean.
If a unit accrues five fatigue tokens, then it fights as the next lower quality troop. So a heavy cavalry unit would fight as medium cavalry. Light cavalry would fight as armored foot, and medium foot would fight as Lightfoot. For some units that's a bigger penalty than others, and I haven't quite figured out the justification for that.
I have to admit, the terrible editing of these rules made me want to toss it out and go WFB5e for my D&D campaign. Only out of respect for the past and desire to play these rules do I continue. I realize we stand on the backs of giants, here and that these rules were really written for players already playing it.
Good fast showcase. Interesting to see them in action. I have the feeling the rules are all over the place in the book, more a question of editing rather than of completion.
Possibly irrelevant data point, but in WFB, circa 2000s, heavy woods could only be negotiated in skirmish order. They also had completely impassable woods and woods that did nothing. I don't like either of those, but breaking up marching order (in addition to disrupting charges) seems like the right way to go.
Excellent video and miniatures, as always.
These miniatures pop! I think I will refrain from using muddy colours for a while on mine.
Yeah, this is the first time i watch someone who real play and explain at the same time. How exciting !! Thanks for the video 😊🎉❤
Woods: use flat green cut out construction paper taped to the table for the woods (instead of miniature trees). When your miniatures move "thru" the woods section, they go at half speed.
Peasant Infantry (aka Knaves, Louts, Tillers Of Soil, Choppers Of Wood, Haulers Of Water, etc.) were problematic in most Medieval Armies. SOMEBODY had to do the cooking, feeding, maintenance, and the other thousand and one things to keep the Nobles in fighting trim. Mostly though, when it came to the actual fighting, they were used to bulk out the numbers of troops and to be sword/arrow fodder for the higher quality soldiers, or ridden down like grass by anyone who had a horse. There were exceptions to this general rule, of course ... the Swiss, the Scots, the Welsh, and some of the Fresian/Dutch... but for the most part, they were not effective on the battlefield, until the introduction of the pike. No doubt, the Necromancer that raised this bunch, will in the future, avoid the contents of the local village graveyards... and seek out the battlefields of yore, in an attempt to field better troops!
I thought that the conclusions you reached when the rules got fuzzy, were logical and reasonable. 2022 is looking good!
Legionnaire skeletons are awesome
Scalability - thank you for reminding me of this concept. I may be using the word wrong here, but I am referring to ability in wargames for an individual model to represent multiple individuals on the battlefield. This allows the player to transition between large battles and skirmishes without increasing total number of models owned.
Lovely bright models, and fascinating rules. You and Purple Druid are doing brilliant wargames archeology!
I'm with you on the fatigue rules, it's something you don't often see on the wargames table, except as something rolled into a morale stat. Treating it separately from morale makes the game more about resource management than simply rolling dice, which is excellent! I'll have to see about porting it into some of the rules systems I already play.
Stargrunt has a separate Fatigue level for each unit, although if memory serves its primary function is to alter the speed at which a unit's morale breaks down. It would be interesting (but maybe too fiddly) if it also affected their physical capacity on the table.
It's a shame, but so much of the mechanical shorthand used in company-level and smaller wargames completely misses some of the most significant advantages and disadvantages real units had in warfare.
@attention Fatigue is a very interesting rule. I've got two games in & it hasn't been a factor, since they only lasted 3 or 4 turns. I forgot about Stargrunt, haven't played that in 25 years!
I'm struck by the comment about Resource management, as that concept is so important in OD&D/AD&D.
Food for thought!
@@WargameCulture Though not explicitly mentioned as such, escalating fatigue seems to be geared toward campaign. I have experimented a lot with attrition rules to drive tough decisions on a wargaming campaign, but rarely have had the opportunity to play more than three games in a row.
A bunch of newer games (A Billion Suns and Malestrom's Edge come to mind) allow the reintroduction of destroyed units as reinforcements, but these still seem focused on one battle rather than the long-term considerations of a protracted campaign.
@@attentionspanlabs I am learning this system SPECIFICALLY to play a longer campaign, using the Solo Wargaming rules by William Sylvester. I also have the Dawn of Battle game that @Hethwill Wargames used in his solo game video series. I am not sure how I am going to tie it all together...yet.
@@WargameCulture I will be following your journey with great interest.
People are still having fun with this game! Keep running it! Show more videos.
A long long time since I saw those rules on a table top. We changed from these to the purple SELWG LOTR rules for fantasy but I did have a copy of Swords and Spells (D&D mass combat) but both had way too many tables for an evening game 😱 😂
Peasants need 7+ to move (it's just above the action table on its own)
Found that while making my own QRS.
Also took me a while to notice that cavalry are very maneuverable. They halve all of the penalties of formation changes. That makes them wicked flexible.
Peasants need a 7 on 2d6 to move. Says just below the peasant paragraph before the table.
I am getting shades of the WRG ancient rules.
I believe it. The timing checks out. These guys were all producing rules at about the same out of the same culture using the same assumptions.
The only experience I have with WRG rules is limited to DBA armies and hordes of the things. Which, as You know, are stand-based, and use a lot more pushback mechanics then casualties.
@@TheJoyofWargamingDBA was an attempt to simplify WRG. You should check them out the 6th edition is available from John Curry.
looking forward to the 2mm version. Intrigued to see how it plays out.
Attaching your minis to balsa wood stands (with sticky putty) is a cheap way to move your units quickly.
I just started learning how to play chainmail. This has helped me out a lot. I need to get me one of those quick reference sheets you have.
Looking good sir. Figures look great.
Great video. Feeling inspired.
Still have my D&D pamphlet/books from last century. Always wanted a copy of Chainmail. Most excellent video. Thanks.
Trying to paint some figures, for first time, but have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, looked at videos, but does not compute😢. lol.
Also arthritis n carpal tunnel (n fat fingers) make a clean paint job not easy.
1. Primed. 2. Base coat of one color. Cowboys (15mm) in brown, Orcs in grey(28's+-. They got mail.)
Painting GHQ micro armour, so much easier. Lol.🚜 Cannot find a tank emoji so the tractor will have to do...
So is punching cardboard n trimming corners.
Love it.
I still remember the joy of my first dry brushing and washing working out. It felt like alchemy. You don't have to be an expert to produce something that works on the table. Good colour choices, thinking how far from your eye the models will be, attention to bases, and lots of cheap, plastic scenery, intended for the little ones, to complement your artistic endeavours. Good luck!
Just started the video so apologies if you reach a conclusion but I *think* the line and column distinction is for when the table is more populated and, say, moving between some buildings or along a gulley would require a change of formation. So less direct benefits and penalties and more the logistics of fitting figures into spaces.
has your camera been upgraded? this is really nice and bright and detailed and paint jobs! considering your filming 15mm! they almost look 28mm, game wise seems a bit mathys for me, I almost recorded a onepage rule game last night which is super fast in comparision and they had some additional optional rules for fatigue rules i need to check out
I, for one, will say I hope you really enjoy Chainmail. I have played it in the past and it really is the clunky, chart driven system that has the rage of the 60's and 70's. The games of Chainmail that I have played, you really need a GM to be doing the math while the players were doing the movement, dice rolls and counting figures. I found the max of eight units per player once you really were use to the system, anything beyond that really slowed the game. The lack of easy to read writing, indexing, or QRS really hurts the game, but the games of today had 50 years of progress to be a better system. I really do like reading some of the original game designs (the various books from John Curry's History of Wargaming Project).
When looking at the peasant chart you say there is nothing about moving, but right above your finger it says to move rule 7 or better...
love those trees
Thank you kindly. They're from some Lego knockoff company.
Great vid! Love to see 15mm getting more love on UA-cam. Quick question, what kind of mat are you playing on?
Home made, babY!
It's a tan piece of felt with a heavy dusting of green spray paint, and some pale green and brown spray mixed in.
@@TheJoyofWargaming Heck yeah! DIY or DIE! Looks good!
Hi. I just discovered your channel via the last episode of Daniel's Bandit's Keep podcast. It's great, I'll look into your Chaimail playlist! Quick question: do you use the Irregulars miniatures? or else? Thanks again 😀
I use whatever I can find.
Irregular figures are best for line troops, though. They don't have quite enough character for...er, characters, if you know what I mean.
I failed to understand the meaning of fatigue; it was counted, but didn't see or catch the reason it was tracked and how that affected battle outcome.
If a unit accrues five fatigue tokens, then it fights as the next lower quality troop. So a heavy cavalry unit would fight as medium cavalry. Light cavalry would fight as armored foot, and medium foot would fight as Lightfoot. For some units that's a bigger penalty than others, and I haven't quite figured out the justification for that.
@@TheJoyofWargamingok, that makes some more sense. Thank you.
I don't mean to nitpick or anything, but would undead skeletons suffer fatigue effects? Seems to me that they wouldn't.
That's a fair question, and a fair ruling.
I have to admit, the terrible editing of these rules made me want to toss it out and go WFB5e for my D&D campaign. Only out of respect for the past and desire to play these rules do I continue. I realize we stand on the backs of giants, here and that these rules were really written for players already playing it.