No practical reason. Except they cost water for returning Harkonens masters. Symbolically it it means “forget that optimistic future these trees represent. Get back to work”.
I wonder if it was by accident. The palm trees were extremely dry and fragile in an already hostile environment, so embers fallen by an explosion could easily cause the trees to combust. Moreover, I don't see why the Harkonnen would purposely set the palm trees on fire since they planted them themselves and cultivated them for decades only to set them on fire for like less than two years since they left. Lastly, I don't think the Harkonnen brought flamethrowers or lighters to their seige. Thus, this way of accidentally burning their trees may represent or foreshadow the Harkonnen's downfall.
If you read the books, the trees are actually for the natives and Fremen. The Fremen plant and cultivate various plants in the hopes of terraforming Arrakis slowly into a paradise. Thats why the Gardener in the movie calls the palm trees "sacred" because the trees represents this dream for a future paradise for the natives of Arrakis both the ones that live in the cities and the tribal fremen. The Harkonens burning the palm trees was mostly a display power, destroying something sacred to the natives, as a symbol of Harkonen hegemony over the natives.
@@ozzo870 I like your reasoning; however, "Harkonens burning the palm trees was mostly a display [of] power" seems less reasonable as palm trees was likely not in anyone's mind as they were being killed. If the natives or Fremen saw the charred trees after the seige, they may suspect that it was accidental due to the mass casualiies and destruction of the seige.
The gift was the justification to eliminate house Atreides + military support (and perhaps economic albeit to a smaller degree) from the emperor @@iqraasif5553
@@iqraasif5553 in the movie where Rabban questions his uncle asking how the emperor can take everything they built on Arrakis and give it to the Duke. The barons aid says “don’t be so sure it’s out of love.” Rabban asking the meaning, baron says “when is a gift not a gift?” He refers to how the Atreides voice is rising among the great houses. But that the emperor is a jealous and dangerous man. TLDR, the power of house Atreides was beginning to rival that of the emperor. So the emperor in league with house Harkkonen(house Atreides long time rival. Think Senju and Uchiha, or the Capulets and montague) and the spacing guild(they just needed the spice to always flow but no space travel can happen without them.) sent them to Arrakis to essentially die. Because it was a trap. The emperor basically needed a way to wipe out Leto and the Atreides without causing all the other houses to unite in opposition to him. Because all the great houses fear what has happened to house Atreides. So they just blamed it on the desert world of Arrakis and the Fremen insurgency.
@@iqraasif5553 imagine your uncle living you your grandmother house but it was rotten from the core & with debt. It may be a gift... but not a gift in the end.
Anyone who's read the books knows that the emperor was scared of Duke Leto's popularity in the Lansraad. Since Kanly was declared between the Atreides & Harkonnen houses, the transfer gave the Harkonnen's a viable reason to attack the Atreides. Duke Leto & hus advisors knew this, and were preparing for it, but underestimated how much the Harkonnen's would spend in order to eliminate them. They also didn't expect Saurdukar disguised as Harkonnens. One passage in the book says that it would take all the profit from the spices mining for 50 years to pay for the troop transport costs.
Or they expected Sardaukar, just not as many as actually arrived. IIRC, the invasion force was about ten times bigger than expected, came much earlier than they thought (so no Fremen brigades), and a traitor inside the House provided troop sizes and locations in addition to getting the House shields shut down. (I figure Dr Yueh did not shut down the shields himself, but he instead let in the Sardaukar that killed the personnel monitoring/protecting the shield then shut down the shield. Dr Yueh may be high ranking, but the personnel on duty at the Shield Generators would have an officer or senior enlisted in charge. That officer or senior enlisted would block Dr Yueh from getting anywhere near the Generators: "Can I help you sir?", but in the tone of voice that is really saying "Why are you here?".)
It's a little deeper than that. In the film, it boils down to "duke is becoming too popular", but in the book, the reason was that Thufir Hawat figured out where the Sardaukar come from - the Emperor's prison planet, a place so brutal that only an extraordinary killer can survive there. And with Duncan, and Gurney, they managed to train a small group of fighters to be almost as good as the Sardaukar, and THAT, combined with their loyalty to the duke (who was a charismatic leader) could upset the balance of power that the Emperor has been maintaining (essentially, through the Sardaukar legions, the Emperor had a stranglehold on the Landsraad with brutal violence). The Atreides knew all of this, but they went anyway, because they knew that the Fremen, hardened by conditions far worse than Salusa Secundus, would be a match for the Sardaukar, and more - they just ran out of time, partially because the Harkonnens accelerated their timetable after Rabban's botched attempt at assasinating Paul. Had the Atreides managed to fully integrate with the Fremen, they would have been able to withstand the Harkonnens, even with Sardaukar help.
Yes, 8m surprised that given that they knew it was a trap why they didn’t have more of a guard, more preparations for an attack. But if the attack failed, no book!
I always wondered why the Emperor didn't just ally with House Atredies. Leto didn’t marry in case he needed to form an alliance. The Emperor could have married Irulan to Leto. Leto was honorable and would have waited until the Emperor was dead to claim the Throne. House Harkonan on the other hand now has damning evidence to force the Emperor to marry Irulan to Feyd and abdicate. It could simply be jealousy. Long term jealousy resulting in secret hatred.
The Emperor has to marry Irulan to someone, I think his last choice would be to marry Irulan to Feyd who is a psychopath and will pressure him to abdicate. And they imply that the Bene Gesserit are on board with this overthrow of Atredies. But how is that possible when they have been fostering and mixing these blood lines for generations. They wanted an Atredies daughter for that reason. Maybe it is just jealousy that grew and grew to Secret hatred to bring Atredies down at all cost, even though outwardly the Emperor and Leto were supposed to be close. It is just , because the Emperors plan is dangerous and unnecessary and I can't see why the Bene Geserrit would go along with it. And couldn't he have just arranged the ship transporting them to blow up or something, seems that would have been safer.
Things are even more complicated in the books. The Harkonnens are having their own schemes, they aren't just the Emperors pawns in this play to eliminate the Atreides. And the Emperor can't just take Arrakis, because most likely CHOAM and the Guild wouldn't let him. There's more powers at play here, than just the Emperor and the houses.
Yes, the baron states that it took all the funds they got from mining spice to send the harkonnen and legions of sardaukar troops to arrakis. The Emperor knew this would leave the harkonnens financially destitute and thus less in control.
lets not forget the emperors daughter. Personally instead of forcing a war, since the emperor had no sons it would have been a more prudent move to marry his daughter to Paul atreides with the stipulation that their first son would be heir to corrino and emperor, thus cementing atreides to the empire.
@@ADobbin1 The sad part is in the book, the Emperor actually liked Duke Atreides. But politics is politics and the Duke was too popular and getting too strong.
The emperor could DEFINITELY take Arrakis. The Guild would not do anything. Neither would CHOAM. Neither would the great houses. The Guild and CHOAM relied ON THE EMPEROR for their existence. It just looked better if he didn't have it. Besides, he probably had special arrangements with the house that had Dune.
several reasons. 1. this is a feudal society, with houses owing fielty to the Imperator. 2. the position of Leto and the Atreides in the Landrsrat (the quasi "parliament" of noble houses) grew more and more untennable, as Leto was leader of the opposition and the Atreides were just a minor house. 3. Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino was a weak emperor and feared his opposition. 4. Kanly was delcared between the houses of Harkonnen and Atreides (war of assasins) 5. Leto Atreides was not able to refuse the granting of the fief of Arrakis by the emperor, due to his political position. A refusal would put the Atreides into quasi open opposition to imperial rule, wich would result in legal reasons for war of the Imperator and Imperium against house Atreides. 6. going into the trap prepared allowed the Atreides to strike a decicive blow to Harkonnen capabilities, the active involvement of House Corrino Troops (Sardaukar) was not expected, as this would be a blatant breach of imperial conduct and would force a precedent for Rebellion of all opposition houses of the Landsrat plus the sympathisers of the large houses, crushing house Corrino rule. (and this is exactly what happened in the end) People dont seem to understand that the human society in Dune is NOT a democracy, but a feudal empire with a monarch at the top and a semi impotent Landsrat to manage the squabbles of the noble houses. You cant simply refuse a granting of a fiefdom without proper reason. You have to follow the orders of your sovereign. This gets portrait over and over again in the books but also the movies, that people CANT walk outside the social constraints of the feudal society without antagonising basicly everybody.
THIS. People are thinking the therms "emperor" and "noble houses" is just a nomenclature used, but no... they mean it, these are feudal schmucks trying to assassinate each other constantly, any semblance of "democratic" rule is just paint.
No. The Atreides were a great house, not a minor house. Leto was not the leader of the opposition, he was becoming more influential though. They expected the Sardaukar. What they didn't expect was the Harkonnens to spend so much to move so many troops....and that many Sardaukar. The Harkonnens were exposing themselves to rebellions and attacks with this move.
@@bobfg3130why didn't Leto stay in Caladan and make a relative the governor of Arrakis like how the Baron Harkkanon stays in Geidi Prime and makes Bautista the Governer of Arrakis?
@@Vilakazi Because its a Different Situation. Giedi Prime is house Harkonnens fief, Arrakis belonged to the Imperial house directly, the Harkonnens were tasked with getting the Spice. Caladan is the Fief of House Atreides, they were assigned Arrakis as a new Planetary fief. One House can only hold one fief, the Harkonnens did not because they technically did not hold Arrakis as a fief. Since why house Atreides needed to give up Caladan for arrakis, after the transfer Caladan was given to house Fenring.
@@Vilakazi Splitting resources between two planets would have been difficult and costly in spice I'm sure. Much easier and cheaper to focus everything on one planet
Think it like that, imagine the imperium as a space version of the holy Roman empire, the smaller houses have united under the leadership of the house atreides, which makes the emperor shaddam corrino paranoid and jealous. Yet the emperor has no casus beli on them, so he instead makes them get a region rich on minerals, that used to belong to their greatest rival, essentially pitting them against each other, and secretly aids the harrkonens to ensure his victory, but making it seem like a simple house quarrel. If the other houses knew he essentially sent his own force to destroy them, they would rebel as they would get angry and scared for that act of tyranny (destroying a house that as the emperor he should protect). I hope that my explanation helped you XD, medieval politics tend to be complicated like that.
There seems to be fundamental problems though: Harkonnen control spice mining, generated more wealth than the emperor, were more imperialistic than Atreides, and Atreides were honorable to the empire. Why does the emperor not see the Harkonnen as the threat to their rule?
because the harkonnen were ass kissers, the emperor himself said that duke leto was gaining popularity in the landsraad meaning his imperial authority might be challenged by the atreides if leto ever so desired the imperial throne
@@warbossgrotsmasha23 I understand that reasoning. However, from my understanding, this is an empire. Popularity is insufficient to supplant a seated emperor, especially one who hasn't caused pervasive discord among houses. Now since the emperor has shown his diplomacy to instill dissonance among houses, houses should cease allegiance and commence the process of usurpation.
It was never specifically mentioned in the books, but imo Leto really was scheming for the Emperor's throne....too many of his actions (including not marrying Jessica, hoping for a 'favorable' political marriage) seem to suggest that
@@koko40800 That would make more sense. However, these actions still appear innocuous and preemptive for the emperor to go to extreme lengths: go behind everyone's knowledge to wipe out an entire house without risking all house rising up against the emperor. The most understandable and reasonable explanations left are that the emperor was paranoid and/or was given bad consult.
How long could the military stay on high alert? Does the military have the right experience to know what constitutes a strange shipping pattern? Can they focus on both the orbital observation as well as dealing with Harkonnen saboteurs/loyalists performing sabotage? Ships are not allowed to remain in orbit per the Spacing Guild, so the vessels would have to be parked on the moons of Arrakis, leading to more potential locations that Harkonnen loyalists can strike at.
They could've at least put a bunch of satellites in orbit. As far as the doctor goes, doesn't the mark on his forehead indicate imperial conditioning? I would left him on Caladan or had his comings and goings monitored at all times. Especially since he's the royal's doctor.
@@_Omega_Weapon First Dune book: per the Spacing Guild, nothing allowed in orbit of Arrakis. Officially it is to prevent something from hitting a spice transport heading to a Heighliner, actually it is due to the Fremen bribing the Spacing Guild to let nothing go into orbit.
No the biggest question is Why were the defenses essientially left on the surface and unmanned when the attack came...one man took down a whole planet worth of security? I dont think so....The whole Atreides army was basically asleep when the attack came. The Duke knew it was a trap yet he made no preparations for it. They had spaceships, why not leave a sizeable force in orbit on alert ready to planetfall when needed or engage the enemy when the showed up....I know the disaster was plot driven, but come on, the Atreides were portrayed as excellent fighters feared by the Emperor, yet they made an lethal tactical error that basically killed them all.
If you wanna create such an impressive world in the future that too 10000+ years in future that shouldn't happen. Look at the Expanse books/show not a single battle has any loopholes or problems. @@BigRay910
Nothing was allowed in orbit around Dune by the Spacing Guild directive (paid off by the Fremen with spice, to keep themselves safe from prying satellites and such) and nobody could go against them. Also the Duke underestimated the Emperor's commitment in getting rid of the Atreides, providing them with Sardaukar troops (a very risky move as it would have rallied the Landsraad against him). Were it just the (inferior but more numerous) Harkonnen troops and if the house defensive fields and comms weren't immediately disabled because of an unforeseeable betrayal, Leto's plan might have gotten the time it needed to be succesful, gaining Fremen support while under siege by the Harkonnen.
I think Leto thought his refusal would mean conflict as well. In the first scenario of him refusing, he would not get a chance to even defend Caladan and would let the Emperor have a "right" to punish House Atreides. In his second option, He hoped(I think) to expose the Emperor and befriend the Fremen. Can we argue he did the right thing after what Paul was able to achieve?
He also did it to weaken the Harkonnens. As stated they became fabulously wealthy from the spice trade. Doing this entire plan put them into debt to a massive degree. Such that the profits from the spice trade would mostly be used in paying of the debt.
Thank you for explaining this. I’m just a casual and watched the movie and loved it not knowing who was what. I simply watched as a casual movie goer and fell in love with the universe. Going to read the book and my Wife and I are watching the original this weekend.
My question is why did not Duke Leto send Duncan, Thufir, or Gurney? Leto should have stayed in Caladan but have sent a strong force to Dune. The Baron send Rabban to take the governorship of the planet. Why didn’t Leto do the same?
Because he planned to ally with the Fremen, not oppress them like the Harkonnen. Going there in person, showing respect and commitment increased the odds success.
Not an option. There’s a difference between Harkonnen’s rule and Leto’s. The Emperor gave the Harkonnen’s governorship over Arakis, which means they govern BUT they don’t control the planet. The Emperor granted Leto and his House fiefdom over Arakis, which means total control over the planet. BUT every house can only have fiefdom over one system, so accepting Arakis meant letting go of Caladan
I think the original 1980s movie version closed this logic hole as well as the book. It was the extraordinary cost estimated to take out the Attriedes and help from the Sardaukar that caught the Attreides off guard. Frank knew how to close off lines of logic very well.
The only other option was to pack up the entire house of atreides and bribe the spacing guild to drop them off on some random back water planet and live in exile.
They knew it was coming but they thought they had months to prepare. They did not count on a) the emperor supporting the Harkonnen with his own tropps and b) that the Harkonnens would be willing to bankrupt themselves to pay the shipping costs to send such a massive force. The spacing guild cost to transport such a massive attacking force should have been prohibitively expensive, this was a huge thing they were counting on.
The Spacing Guild didn't allow stuff to be in orbit around Dune. The Fremen paid them off in spice to protect themselves against prying satellites and such.
Plus, it took betrayal by the doctor, who was supposed to be totally loyal, to lower their planetary assault shields, otherwise the attack would have failed.
The real reason why Dune was handed to Atreides is to keep both them and the Harkonens weak. To destroy Atreides if everything works, and to weaken and keep Harkonens under control. Or, if assassination of Leto failed, then destruction of Harkonens and weakening of Atreides would also be good. Emperor was thinking, however it turns out he will come out on top. The reason why Harkonens lost Dune is because they were failing at Spice production - they did not earn immense riches at all. The Fremen were destroying too many of their harvesters no matter what Harkonens did and they were trying to hide that from the Emperor. But the Spice quotas were not met and the production kept failing. That negatively influenced the whole empire and the Guild so the change of ownership was needed because of mismanagement by Harkonens. Baron himself says he beggared his own house financing the conspiracy takeover, paying the Guild for transfers and paying for Sardaukar legions, which meant they would be forever in Emperors debt, and also involved in a plot. The emperor wanted to screw them both.
Bennjesuit (sc) is the one who manipulated the emperor to wipe out the atraties (sc) because they couldn’t control them. And saw defiant in the eyes of Leto and his son.
Leto was very popular in the Lansraad and was their de facto leader. The emepror was threatened by this and needed to eliminate him. He couldn't attack him in Caladan since it was too fortified and so he baited Leto out into going to Arrakis. Leto knew this might be a trap but he counted on having consolidated the support of the Fremen which were better fighters than the Sardaukars. To give you an idea, Fremen children and elders were able to take out Sardaukars which are known to be the best fighters in the imperium. With the Fremen and the Spice within Atreides control they would have been the most powerful house - more powerful than the emperor. The problem is Leto underestimated the swift and savage attack of the Harkonnens and he certainly didn't thought that the Emperor would send his Sardaukar to help the Harkonnens. The amount of troops transported by the guild would have cost 50 years worth of spice.
Honestly you should be glad for how simple the movies are, in the book the explanations are much vague but at the same time it's more satisfying (i also would say the timeline is better in the movie, just too much cut)
There is also the spacing guild and the Bene Gesserit. Both organizations would not allow the Emperor to assault the house of Atreides or take control of Arrikis. They have their own interests and schemes. Allowing the emperor to become that powerful would weaken these organizations, so they would to anything to overthrow the emperor
Wars between houses are fair game as long as the Emperor isn’t involved (which is why his involvement needed to be a secret). Harkonnen’s taking back a planet they had control for generations would be fair play, especially since the Atreides “declared war” first
@N3xtStopHell But they didn't in the movie. They did exactly what the Emperor publicly asked them to. The Harkonnen's attack would be seen as an 'F You' to the Emperor.
It wasn't long for Duke Lotto to be on Arruckus till the pahdedbra emperor Shaddap IV gave him the pink slip, had him fired. It was a good thing that the Lady Jazzica taught her son, Pall, the secrets of the Boni Maroni school of cooks. He learned the cooks voice where he could force anyone out of a room with a very nazel voice saying like, "Get Out Of The Kitchen! It'll Be Ready When It's Ready", and so forth. It's also good that Pall had trainers like Drunk In Omaha to teach him how to use the Swice Knife, use the saw, the can opener, and so forth. When the Baron Hardchargen has Pall and Jazzica stranded upon the sugar planes of Doon, Arrukus, a dessert planet totally devoid of entrees, he was able to gain acceptance from the sweat suit wearing Freedmenmen. With the guidance of Spillguard, Pall was able to master riding the giant pretzels that roam the sugar plains of Doon. He soon came to be their leader and gained control of the galaxy by disrupting the ability of the schlepping guild to transport goods through interstellar space by denying them the amber colored, mind altering liquid, that could only be found on Doon, known as beer. After all, no schlepping guild space trucker would want to haul a load across the galaxy unless he could kick back with a six pack afterward. This awesome story comes to a dramatic climax when all things come to a head when Pall must challenge the Baron Hardchargin to a bake off. Pall's Boni Maroni cooking skills prevail and he easily defeats the baron and the emperor has no choice but to give the baron the pink slip. National Lampoon's, "Doon", was a silly, but funny book that I read in the mid 1980s.
There's a line from baron Harkonnen from the 2000's version that summarizes this perfectly. "You don't get more popular than the boss, Unless of course You're going to Sack him. Did I say that, How Im-politic of me."
There is also the Bene Geserit influence which I don't fully understand if it adapts to the polittical changes or is the base influence underneath the Houses decisions. And th Spaceing Guild which is completely ignored in the recent films in my opinion
I mean.... duh. Imagine the Cali cartel says to Pablo, "Hey, come to Cali Columbia, and you can control my pwder on behalf of the cali cartel (like nothing will happen to you)" 🤣
I think this video does a mostly good job of explaining why the Emperor engaged in this convoluted plot to squash the Atreides, as opposed to simply sending Sardaukar legions to Caladan. To summarize, due to the balance of power within the Imperium, the Emperor needed to create a political theater which would mask/justify his decision to wipe out Atreides, but also create a strategic situation where they Atreides are on the back foot. There are a couple other points I'd add for why the Emperor (may have) decided upon the "Dune = trap" strategy. 1) The act of relocating the Atreides, in itself, would uproot them and disrupt their defenses as they try to dig into a new, unknown territory. They were heavily dug into Caladan for several thousand years, and could count on a "home field advantage" against any invasion, so the "gift" of Arrakis removed that. 2) That new territory had been rigged from the start to be a death trap, first thanks to Arrakis's own harsh climate, but also thanks to Harkonnen saboteurs/assassins who stayed behind, keeping Atreides defenses messed up, as well as harming their ability to harvest spice, the most valuable commodity on the planet. 3) The sabotage of spice production could be pinned on the Atreides, which would dry up their popularity amongst the Landsraad, which was arguably their greatest strength. Something mentioned in the books, but not the film, is that a spice disruption would dramatically affect the income of most of the Landsraad members, since it would cause Guild shipping rates to skyrocket beyond their already extortionate rates. Plus, spice is a life-extending substance which kills its addicts only when they stop taking it. So, there were a lot of rich, powerful people who literally needed it to survive. Between threats to profits and life, a spice disruption seen as the fault of the Atreides would completely eliminate their Landsraad support, and thus create the pretense the Emperor would need to justify his actions if they ever became known.
I think Leto was aware he was walking into a trap, but hewas hoping for an alliance with the Fremen to stave off the trap, but things didn't work out, he couldn't solidify an alliance, and he fell victim to the trap
I haven't read the book so I'm curious about what the emperor plans to do now - one house has defied him so he must take action right? Or is he hoping the other houses will attack the Harkonen so he gets rid of both houses?
The other houses wouldn't care much since it was done by the Harkonnens. They'd only stir to war if they knew the Emperor helped. The other houses would not be shocked by the move because House Atredies and Harkonnen had a vendetta feud spanning centuries.
2:59 what are you talking about? Atreides were developing a new sonic weapon (remember shields, melee weapons, projectiles and laser restrictions) and the emperor was afraid it'll be used against him.
The thing is he didn't have an option not to, because it was direct order, if he wouldn't have gone to arakis, if he would've said no, it would be against the emperor's rule, so firstly he didn't really have a choice and he probably taught that either way the house Atreides would be in danger but if he takes the order there is still a chance that the house Atreides could actually survive.
For one thing saying no to the Stewardship & CHOAM Contract risked another Great House getting it, even extension for the Harkonnens. Remember there's the constant jockeying for power and influence. Any opportunity for short-term gain is jumped on by everyone
There is an over-interpretation, but the Korino royal family and other Landsrad nobles, especially Harkonnen, who previously ruled Arakas with oppression, did not know the true power of the Fremen. The Fremen had a deep relationship with the Smugglers, and used so much spice bribes that even the guild's satellites turned their direction. In other words, Spice Melange was mined and traded in enormous amounts through the bright world path, including guilds, but when it included the dark path, it was traded in quantities and values that were difficult to imagine. If the Empire and the Emperor had known the seriousness of this, they would have blocked the entire planet by using all of Sadauka instead of having Harkonnen and the like harvest the Spice Melange. However, Corino did not know this, and similarly exported Pundi rice and other crops from planet Caladan, the consumption of which the entire universe depends on, through the guild, inferring a symbiotic relationship between the guild and smugglers, and through this, Frey, the actual ruler behind Arrakis. Find out Men's identity. With Duke Leto willingly walking into this obvious trap, Emperor Shadam IV knew that Duke Leto would have a plan to fight against him, but he only knew it was the power of the Atraiders family itself, and the Spice itself. I never thought it would be the Fremen involved. Therefore, Saddam IV focused on crushing the military power of the Atraiders family itself and used Harkonnen as a vanguard. However, Duke Leto, who had had high hopes for the Fremen from the beginning, did not expect Harkonnen and the Emperor to take action so quickly. This was because Duke Leto's power was revealed through the guild's highlighter anyway. In other words, Duke Leto assumed the guise of a somewhat unprepared conquering monarch who went down to Arrakis, relying on his frugal military power, but the emperor, who could not be sure of his true identity, instead tried to use all his strength to settle the matter at once. In other words, Leto's mistake in failing to get the timing right in the fight between Duke Leto and the Emperor will be painful. However, this cannot be seen as a complete failure, as Leto's training with the Fremen ultimately ended the Corino family and broke the guild's monopoly. In fact, many people believe that Leto approached the Fremen to protect his beloved son, Paul, but it turns out that it is quite the opposite. Paul was a dragon's tooth that his father Leto had planted in the desert of Arrakis, and he survived and masterfully led the dragon army to conquer the entire universe.
Apart from having the title of "Emperor of the Known Universe" and having supposedly the best army in the Imperium, the Emperor doesn't really have much power.
he has complete power over the landsarrad (the governing body of the imperium) , he has no power over the other factions that operate in the imperium (bene gesserit ,bene teilax , spacing guild , choam)
I have a hunch that Baron Harkonnen was the kind of dictator who appoints army officers based on patronage. It's very common in third world armies. That's why his army couldn't beat the Atreides without the Sardaukar. My question is, if Spice was in such high demand, why didn't they just haul a worm to another desert planet and grow spice there?
If I recall from the books, they already tried to cultivate the spice on other planets, but so far to no avail. This is most likely because Arrakis itself is unique in a way it has a very specific condition for supporting the worms ecosystem. And I think transporting the worms to another planet is a different kind of challenge altogether.
Adult sandworms are simply to big to catch them, especially unnoticed (I'd wager you'd need a pretty big operation drawing attention to do so) and young sandworms in their larval stage are probably too sensitive + transport in low gravity environment in space. Free water is basically highly toxic to sandworms, that's why arrakis is a desert because sandworms in their larval stage basically trap the water. If the fandom is correct (I haven't gotten to reading the books so far) a sandworms are also able to turn an entire lush planet into a desert as they proliferate and go through their life cycle.
The book makes it pretty clear that that had been tried, and it had failed. And if I recall correctly, no one even knew the full life cycle and relationship of the spice to the worms until Leto II. I'm not sure he even shared that knowledge, given that they continued to terraform Arrakis and threaten the worms with extinction.
mega book spoiler : this has been attempted for eons and has failed for various reasons and at the very end of the saga a secret planet , chapterhouse has sand worms creating spice via artifical means has also failed for eons. this too eventually happens
5:22 Huh? Nowhere does it say the Atreides army is remotely comparable to the Saurdakar. And we saw that when the small number of Saurdakar sent in were a devastating force against the Atreides. What they say is that, if they could recruit the Fremen, THEN they might have a force that’s comparable. Not that they have one already. In addition, no one feared a Fremen/Atreides alliance, because no one understood just how powerful the Fremen actually were. And why would the Emperor want to destroy the Atreides based off a potential alliance, which wouldn’t even become a possibility unless he first gave Arrakis to the Atreides? That claim doesn’t make a single shred of sense.
Yes the book did say that😂 that's why they dressed as the Harkonen army instead of their army doing it themselves It's one of the reasons the Emperor wanted them ended
@@L.S.0What you just said makes no sense. They were dressed as Harkonnen’s to make it seem like it was just a squabble between two houses and keep the Emperor’s hands clean, otherwise the Landsraad would unite against them. So if the book says what you say, then surely you would have a page reference to go with that claim.
@@ThorOdinson In Dune, when Hawat is talking to the Baron, explaining to him why the Fremen are a threat to the Emperor... "The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force - a small fighting force - to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
@@drisss1990 Do you have a chapter citation? Because I’ve read Dune several times. NOWHERE do I remember a passage saying anything like that. The opposite, as NO ONE thought the Fremen were a threat to the Emperor. Moreover, the plan to betray the Duke was hatched long before he was given possession of Arrakis. Seriously, if you’re going to argue, try not to just make shit up.
a little detail in the book were that the sardauka army that support the harkonnen were not free. the emporer want the cost of the operation back from the Harkonnen. Haron Harkonnen not only know he need the production of decades to pay back this service to the emporer. He even fear this loan will outlife him.
I just reread it. Leto didn’t know of an attack or one so soon. He only believed that the emperor sent him there as a move to show how he handles is. Maybe test his strength and that of his house. Leto decided to go because he wanted to gain desert power. Have the fremen on his side. Leto also knew about spy but didn’t know who… like yueh.
because duke knew it was a trap he had to go. They would have found some other excuse and then destroyed the Atreides home world. Duke went to arrakis to find allies to re enforce his house which was a good idea considering his house was almost completely destroyed on arrakis when the immanent attack commenced. If that had happened on their home world there would be no fremen to ally with and in this case provide the manpower so the house does not go completely extinct since most of the survivors loyal to the duke were executed after the attack.
The Emperor had other reasons to elliminate House Atreides. If we allow the Brian Herbert House Trilogy books as cannon, Leto escaped imperial justice once. When the Harkonnens framed the Atreides for an attack on the Tleilaxu (after they annexed Ix illegally), Leto used an obscure but effective defense strategy during the trial and won. The takeover of Ix was a plan that the Emperor tacitly condoned, and Leto's win in court soured Shaddam's opinion of Leto
Leto represents the perfect leader just like the Starks are the most honorable and admirable house in GRRM books. They always are the ones that die or face great adversity.
For the House of Harkonnen, one would think the other houses would go against that house since it disobeyed the Emperor by taking the planet back. I would think the Emperor would have to then take Harkonnen for going against decision that he made public to the other families.
Not really. Harkonnen was in a very powerful position because of the massive wealth that Dune provided. Also the Guild demanded exorbitant prices for ferrying armies limiting the fighting between the houses to mostly cloak&dagger stuff. And finally there was a 'legal' vendetta decladed between the Harkonnen and the Atreides, called a kanly.
I'm still a bit confused by the emperor's logic here. If it is that he wanted it to look like the Harkonnen taking back Arrakis by force, wouldn't that be perceived by the other houses as a direct affront to the emperor's will? Unless, of course, it was infact the emperor's will for those events to happen? If he took no action against house Harkonnen for this act, wouldn't he then seem complicit in it? Whether directly or indirectly?
yes it would be perceived against the emperor's will but it was also well known that the atredies and harkonnens are at war with each other and have been for centuries. the emperor could figure out a punishment to the harkonnens but secretly make it toothless as both houses are secretly in league with each other. the emperor could also decide to straight up say , the harkonnens won the war and as victors deserve the rights to the planet as long as the emperor gets his share (what actually happens)
If it would have been treason to refused the Emperor's "Gift" of Arakis, then why would it not have been treason for the Harkonnen's to take it back (by force)?
It doesn't make sense to me. A civilization/house with means of stellar transportation, a duke knowing that he's moving into a trap, a context setup for war and they don't have the concept of orbital/aerial surveillance ? Their anti-air platforms started to activate when harkonnen ships were already above the city. Weren't they supposed to be in a semi-alert state ? C'mon Leto.
This video portrait a very silly question !! Why does Leto Atreides still lead them to Arrakis even though he's aware it's a trap ??? Isn't it simple enough ?? Because Leto never expected a traitor !! Let me give you some reason why the Atreides loose: 1/ The great shield which covered the whole city has been brought down by the traitor, that's allow Harkonnen's orbital bombs to goes through, destroy all Atreides warship, leave them vulnerable to their bombardment and land assault !! Which mean with the shield still up, there's no way Harkonnen and Sardaukar warships can enter the atmosphere above the city !! 2/ Atreides's warships is heavily armored, armed and ultilized for vessels dual, meaning they will ALWAYS win in a vessel-to-vessel combat. At least to enemies like Harkonnen whose vessel are solely for ground support and deploy troops, acting more like a drop-ship than a supremacy warship !! The fact that no Atreides's warships were able to take off and join the fight essentially help enemies enter the atmosphere and drop tons of troops so easily ! 3/ Harkonnen and Sardaukar use underhanded tactic: Night attack the city and backstab the Atreides's troopers !! You can clearly see that even in pajamas and sleepy state, Atreides's troopers still overwhelmed Harkonnen's troopers with literally no casualties ! That's already shown how skilled they are, and could only be defeated by Sardaukar troopers IN A FAIR BATTLE where both side have same values like in the same numbers and same equipment state !! All of that means House Atrides CAN NOT loose if their advantages were not disrupted: + If the great shield still active, Harkonnen's falling bombs will never reach the city, but otherwise will just exploded on the shield and alert the Atreides army about the attack !! + With the great shield still there, deploy troops is impossible, nor sending any support down. Which mean the Harkonnen's numbers advantage and even Sardaukar troops will simply useless !! + Then the Atreides will be able to activate the warships, fly up and ANNIHILATED the Harkonnen fleet with minimum loses of warships because of their supremacy in vessel combat ! + Sardaukar warships is also a threat, but since they come in small numbers (just 3 battalion), which equal to just 3 ships !! How tf can they survive a direct battle with Atreides fleet ??
I’ve never read these books and after seeing the first part recently I had no idea what was happening for most of it. After the second watch though, seemed to me that the emperor’s plan was kinda stupid. Like why wipe out the most loyal and least likely to rebel house while fueling the most wealthy and brutal house? Also there are hella people with the spice sight that could easily know the emperor’s true motives, and thus create a martyrdom from house Atreides
The film answers the first question. When is a gift not a gift? There are always plans within plans. The Emperor gave the planet to Leto, knowing it would piss off the Harkonens, the Harkonens would then kill the Atreides out of revenge. Even though both the Harkonens and the Emperor wanted the Atreides dead, the Emperor couldn't be seen to be pulling the strings. It was most likely be believed by the Landserat that it would just be a cold war for decades, not an all out slaughter.
Simple, the Atreides are vulnerable in a desert planet since their home planet Caladan is a mostly oceanic world where they rely mostly on sea power. The emperor is a jealous man who feel threatened by the growing power and influence of House Atreides despite Duke Leto never having the intention of rebelling against him. Duke Leto was aware of the threat however he also knows the advantage of gaining the alliance of the Freman which may help House Atreides secure a foothold on the Arrakis against external threats.
But why did Shaddam IV even considered giving Arrakis to the Atreides a a viable option to eliminate them? It was by far the riskiest thing he could have done, and he ended up paying the price. Sure, the pay-off of winning the gamble would be immense, but his chances were slim; Moreover, although the continued power struggle would come back to bite him again, he could have easily remained in the throne by allying with the Atreides or setting them to be framed for treason without actually giving them a reason to "betray" his Empire. And the elephant in the room: Did Shaddam ever know just how damn dangerous Jessica, a Bene Gesserit sister, was? And because of that the unequivocally uncanny nature of the birth of a male descendant of member of an order known for only giving birth to females? And if he didn't know a thing, was it a good idea to pit the Harkonnen, the most wealthy house and owner of one of the largest private armies, against the ascending house of Atreides? In fact, the Harkonnen are so influential to Dune, that following the death of Vladimir, Rabban and Feyd, the descendance was immediately researched for a heir to be chosen; And thus it was found that Paul was the new head of the house because Jessica's biological father was no other than Vladimir himself. So if the Harkonnen won, what would stop them from doing exactly what Paul, Jessica and the Fremen did to the spice production following the war in Arrakis?
It still does not make sense for the Emperor to not just take Arrakis for himself. If he holds the planet then he can effectively make space travel impossible for anyone disloyal, and he could retake the rebeling planets at his leisure. This is not like finding a large oilfield, this would be like finding the only oil filed on the entire planet, and a perpetual oil filed at that. I would have stationed my entire fleet there armored to the teah and imdelty seint Sardaukar to kill all opesion on the planet. Tossing such a vital and important planet into games of policies is beyond reckless
Wayyyyy too many people commenting who haven't read the books. Yes the movie had to leave certain details out because of time limits so some things are confusing but in short all the major powers knew of the plot and let it happen. That includes the bene gesserit and the space guild. All space ships are owned by the guild because only they know how to create the mutants using spice who can create faster than light ships
I mean, despite the Harkonens being favored by the Emperor, I thought it would be a huge insult to go against the emperor's order no matter how you feel about it. So attacking Duke Leto on Arakis so soon after it was given to his house by the Emperor should have landed the Harkonens in hot water for it instead of having a free hand to do whatever they wanted. But I can only guess that the book will explain it if and when I finally read it.
One thing I like about Dune is, all the characters have really quite clever plans. The Emperor's plan would've wiped out both of his biggest political rivals (the Atreides and the Harkonnens) without turning the Landsraad against him, by supplying the Harkonnens with troops to attack the Atreides at their expense, so the Harkonnens go bankrupt and take the blame whilst the Atreides get wiped out. And he'd be able to make a ton of money selling his stockpile of spice because of all the disruption the incident caused. Meanwhile, the Atreides and the Harkonnens had similar plans: train the Fremen into a formidable fighting force which could rival the Sardaukar, and place one of their family members on the throne to take over the Empire. The details differed - the Baron Harkonnen wanted Rabban to oppress the Fremen so much that Feyd-Rautha would seem like a saviour by comparison, whereas Leto wanted Paul to actually improve the Fremen standard of living. And the Atreides won because Paul implemented his plan before the Harkonnens finished implementing theirs, and the Emperor underestimated the strength of the Fremen army and so didn't bring enough of his Sardaukar to defeat them.
Everyone seems to be missing the point that Leto (in the movie never read the books), never married and kept himslef open to take the princess's hand when he achieved his goals, so Leto was planning on taking the Emperor anyway and it's highly likely the Emperor guessed this.
What I don’t get is with how long spice has been around why didn’t they breed the worms in different planets to make more spice? Also does the emperors bloodline come from Arrakis because they couldn’t travel planets before then so how did anyone discover it or space travel?
Pride and overconfidence since he's been taking a lot of W's for years. He never had the foresight that there's treachery from the most unexpected place.
But the Emperor had the Sardukar, so why could he not use the Sardukar to quell any rebellion from the other houses if he took Arakis for himself. He had a whole planet to recruite Sardukar troops, so while he had Arakis, he could fuel multiple fleets of Sardukar to lay waste to uprisings. Right? Just like any tyrant would in our real world....
The Emperor could beat any individial house, but not all houses combined and the CHOAM and the Spacing Guild, which would have happened if he had taken direct control of Arrakis. It was the check designed in the system to prevent the emperor from gaining absolute power, as clearly shown by Paul when the took control of Dune and directly strong-armed the Spacing Guild (actually the most powerful entity of all, though crippled by their need for spice) and though them forced everybody else to do his bidding.
interplanetary invasions are insanely expensive, the fees to the spacing guild are immense, the fees the harkonnens paid the spacing guild almost bankrupted them , the emperor is the richest in the imperium but he does not have infinite money. the harkonnens are also insanely wealthy, they are a major house and it took everything they had to pay for the invasion.
Pride, arrogance, and the love of the game. Duke Leto was as much of a bullfighter as his father was. Other than cultivating the Fremmen, we don't really know the Dukes full plan. I guess it would be get as much Spice as possible. Keep the same levels of Spice production and use the extra spice to make allies. I don't think Leto wanted to marry Paul to Irulan, or marry into the Imperial family himself.
“Never become more popular than the boss.”
- Baron Harkonnen
OR PR 48 Laws of Power
..unless you intend to sack him. Did I say that? How impolitic of me. I must be spending too much time with that idiot nephew of mine"
@@aseteliniserved me well
Lmao 😅
Tiberius princeps sended his too popular general, his heir Germanicus to the Levant (arabia). After that he routed the house of Alpheus and Zebedee.
The question that really matters is why the Harkonens set the palm trees on fire? They were theirs.
No practical reason. Except they cost water for returning Harkonens masters.
Symbolically it it means “forget that optimistic future these trees represent. Get back to work”.
Old Dream! NOOO 😢
I wonder if it was by accident. The palm trees were extremely dry and fragile in an already hostile environment, so embers fallen by an explosion could easily cause the trees to combust. Moreover, I don't see why the Harkonnen would purposely set the palm trees on fire since they planted them themselves and cultivated them for decades only to set them on fire for like less than two years since they left. Lastly, I don't think the Harkonnen brought flamethrowers or lighters to their seige. Thus, this way of accidentally burning their trees may represent or foreshadow the Harkonnen's downfall.
If you read the books, the trees are actually for the natives and Fremen. The Fremen plant and cultivate various plants in the hopes of terraforming Arrakis slowly into a paradise. Thats why the Gardener in the movie calls the palm trees "sacred" because the trees represents this dream for a future paradise for the natives of Arrakis both the ones that live in the cities and the tribal fremen. The Harkonens burning the palm trees was mostly a display power, destroying something sacred to the natives, as a symbol of Harkonen hegemony over the natives.
@@ozzo870 I like your reasoning; however, "Harkonens burning the palm trees was mostly a display [of] power" seems less reasonable as palm trees was likely not in anyone's mind as they were being killed. If the natives or Fremen saw the charred trees after the seige, they may suspect that it was accidental due to the mass casualiies and destruction of the seige.
That’s why i liked that line from the baron “when is a gift not a gift?”
What does it mean? I didn't understand it
The gift was the justification to eliminate house Atreides + military support (and perhaps economic albeit to a smaller degree) from the emperor @@iqraasif5553
@iqraasif5553 its referring to the emporer "giving" house atredes arakisas as a gift knowing that the harkonans would attack
@@iqraasif5553 in the movie where Rabban questions his uncle asking how the emperor can take everything they built on Arrakis and give it to the Duke. The barons aid says “don’t be so sure it’s out of love.” Rabban asking the meaning, baron says “when is a gift not a gift?” He refers to how the Atreides voice is rising among the great houses. But that the emperor is a jealous and dangerous man. TLDR, the power of house Atreides was beginning to rival that of the emperor. So the emperor in league with house Harkkonen(house Atreides long time rival. Think Senju and Uchiha, or the Capulets and montague) and the spacing guild(they just needed the spice to always flow but no space travel can happen without them.) sent them to Arrakis to essentially die. Because it was a trap. The emperor basically needed a way to wipe out Leto and the Atreides without causing all the other houses to unite in opposition to him. Because all the great houses fear what has happened to house Atreides. So they just blamed it on the desert world of Arrakis and the Fremen insurgency.
@@iqraasif5553 imagine your uncle living you your grandmother house but it was rotten from the core & with debt. It may be a gift... but not a gift in the end.
Anyone who's read the books knows that the emperor was scared of Duke Leto's popularity in the Lansraad. Since Kanly was declared between the Atreides & Harkonnen houses, the transfer gave the Harkonnen's a viable reason to attack the Atreides. Duke Leto & hus advisors knew this, and were preparing for it, but underestimated how much the Harkonnen's would spend in order to eliminate them. They also didn't expect Saurdukar disguised as Harkonnens.
One passage in the book says that it would take all the profit from the spices mining for 50 years to pay for the troop transport costs.
Exactly 👌👍
To destroy an ancestral enemy and gain the favour of the emperor? Small price to pay.
Or they expected Sardaukar, just not as many as actually arrived. IIRC, the invasion force was about ten times bigger than expected, came much earlier than they thought (so no Fremen brigades), and a traitor inside the House provided troop sizes and locations in addition to getting the House shields shut down.
(I figure Dr Yueh did not shut down the shields himself, but he instead let in the Sardaukar that killed the personnel monitoring/protecting the shield then shut down the shield. Dr Yueh may be high ranking, but the personnel on duty at the Shield Generators would have an officer or senior enlisted in charge. That officer or senior enlisted would block Dr Yueh from getting anywhere near the Generators: "Can I help you sir?", but in the tone of voice that is really saying "Why are you here?".)
It's a little deeper than that. In the film, it boils down to "duke is becoming too popular", but in the book, the reason was that Thufir Hawat figured out where the Sardaukar come from - the Emperor's prison planet, a place so brutal that only an extraordinary killer can survive there. And with Duncan, and Gurney, they managed to train a small group of fighters to be almost as good as the Sardaukar, and THAT, combined with their loyalty to the duke (who was a charismatic leader) could upset the balance of power that the Emperor has been maintaining (essentially, through the Sardaukar legions, the Emperor had a stranglehold on the Landsraad with brutal violence).
The Atreides knew all of this, but they went anyway, because they knew that the Fremen, hardened by conditions far worse than Salusa Secundus, would be a match for the Sardaukar, and more - they just ran out of time, partially because the Harkonnens accelerated their timetable after Rabban's botched attempt at assasinating Paul. Had the Atreides managed to fully integrate with the Fremen, they would have been able to withstand the Harkonnens, even with Sardaukar help.
Yes, 8m surprised that given that they knew it was a trap why they didn’t have more of a guard, more preparations for an attack. But if the attack failed, no book!
I always wondered why the Emperor didn't just ally with House Atredies. Leto didn’t marry in case he needed to form an alliance. The Emperor could have married Irulan to Leto. Leto was honorable and would have waited until the Emperor was dead to claim the Throne. House Harkonan on the other hand now has damning evidence to force the Emperor to marry Irulan to Feyd and abdicate. It could simply be jealousy. Long term jealousy resulting in secret hatred.
because of the Bene Gesserit, they wanted a girl but Jessica opted for a boy (Paul), that girl should have been bred to Feyd
Yes it quite simply is jealousy
The Emperor has to marry Irulan to someone, I think his last choice would be to marry Irulan to Feyd who is a psychopath and will pressure him to abdicate. And they imply that the Bene Gesserit are on board with this overthrow of Atredies. But how is that possible when they have been fostering and mixing these blood lines for generations. They wanted an Atredies daughter for that reason. Maybe it is just jealousy that grew and grew to Secret hatred to bring Atredies down at all cost, even though outwardly the Emperor and Leto were supposed to be close. It is just , because the Emperors plan is dangerous and unnecessary and I can't see why the Bene Geserrit would go along with it. And couldn't he have just arranged the ship transporting them to blow up or something, seems that would have been safer.
@@jowieonit Bene Gesserit were behind everything, one of the strengths of the new movies is that they make this very clear, while other movies don't.
@@kinfeofspaghetti But this is the movie, though, in the book, it's not the BG behind the attack on House Atreides.
Things are even more complicated in the books.
The Harkonnens are having their own schemes, they aren't just the Emperors pawns in this play to eliminate the Atreides. And the Emperor can't just take Arrakis, because most likely CHOAM and the Guild wouldn't let him. There's more powers at play here, than just the Emperor and the houses.
My impression from the novel is that the Baron was prolly the mastermind of the plot, not the emperor, though both obviously participated.
Yes, the baron states that it took all the funds they got from mining spice to send the harkonnen and legions of sardaukar troops to arrakis. The Emperor knew this would leave the harkonnens financially destitute and thus less in control.
lets not forget the emperors daughter. Personally instead of forcing a war, since the emperor had no sons it would have been a more prudent move to marry his daughter to Paul atreides with the stipulation that their first son would be heir to corrino and emperor, thus cementing atreides to the empire.
@@ADobbin1 The sad part is in the book, the Emperor actually liked Duke Atreides. But politics is politics and the Duke was too popular and getting too strong.
The emperor could DEFINITELY take Arrakis. The Guild would not do anything. Neither would CHOAM. Neither would the great houses. The Guild and CHOAM relied ON THE EMPEROR for their existence. It just looked better if he didn't have it. Besides, he probably had special arrangements with the house that had Dune.
several reasons.
1. this is a feudal society, with houses owing fielty to the Imperator.
2. the position of Leto and the Atreides in the Landrsrat (the quasi "parliament" of noble houses) grew more and more untennable, as Leto was leader of the opposition and the Atreides were just a minor house.
3. Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino was a weak emperor and feared his opposition.
4. Kanly was delcared between the houses of Harkonnen and Atreides (war of assasins)
5. Leto Atreides was not able to refuse the granting of the fief of Arrakis by the emperor, due to his political position. A refusal would put the Atreides into quasi open opposition to imperial rule, wich would result in legal reasons for war of the Imperator and Imperium against house Atreides.
6. going into the trap prepared allowed the Atreides to strike a decicive blow to Harkonnen capabilities, the active involvement of House Corrino Troops (Sardaukar) was not expected, as this would be a blatant breach of imperial conduct and would force a precedent for Rebellion of all opposition houses of the Landsrat plus the sympathisers of the large houses, crushing house Corrino rule. (and this is exactly what happened in the end)
People dont seem to understand that the human society in Dune is NOT a democracy, but a feudal empire with a monarch at the top and a semi impotent Landsrat to manage the squabbles of the noble houses.
You cant simply refuse a granting of a fiefdom without proper reason.
You have to follow the orders of your sovereign.
This gets portrait over and over again in the books but also the movies, that people CANT walk outside the social constraints of the feudal society without antagonising basicly everybody.
THIS.
People are thinking the therms "emperor" and "noble houses" is just a nomenclature used, but no... they mean it, these are feudal schmucks trying to assassinate each other constantly, any semblance of "democratic" rule is just paint.
No. The Atreides were a great house, not a minor house. Leto was not the leader of the opposition, he was becoming more influential though.
They expected the Sardaukar. What they didn't expect was the Harkonnens to spend so much to move so many troops....and that many Sardaukar. The Harkonnens were exposing themselves to rebellions and attacks with this move.
@@bobfg3130why didn't Leto stay in Caladan and make a relative the governor of Arrakis like how the Baron Harkkanon stays in Geidi Prime and makes Bautista the Governer of Arrakis?
@@Vilakazi Because its a Different Situation. Giedi Prime is house Harkonnens fief, Arrakis belonged to the Imperial house directly, the Harkonnens were tasked with getting the Spice. Caladan is the Fief of House Atreides, they were assigned Arrakis as a new Planetary fief. One House can only hold one fief, the Harkonnens did not because they technically did not hold Arrakis as a fief. Since why house Atreides needed to give up Caladan for arrakis, after the transfer Caladan was given to house Fenring.
@@Vilakazi Splitting resources between two planets would have been difficult and costly in spice I'm sure. Much easier and cheaper to focus everything on one planet
Basically the Emperor isn't as powerful as we'd expect; otherwise, he wouldn't have needed to use subterfuge anyway.
Think it like that, imagine the imperium as a space version of the holy Roman empire, the smaller houses have united under the leadership of the house atreides, which makes the emperor shaddam corrino paranoid and jealous.
Yet the emperor has no casus beli on them, so he instead makes them get a region rich on minerals, that used to belong to their greatest rival, essentially pitting them against each other, and secretly aids the harrkonens to ensure his victory, but making it seem like a simple house quarrel.
If the other houses knew he essentially sent his own force to destroy them, they would rebel as they would get angry and scared for that act of tyranny (destroying a house that as the emperor he should protect).
I hope that my explanation helped you XD, medieval politics tend to be complicated like that.
There seems to be fundamental problems though: Harkonnen control spice mining, generated more wealth than the emperor, were more imperialistic than Atreides, and Atreides were honorable to the empire. Why does the emperor not see the Harkonnen as the threat to their rule?
Divide and rule
because the harkonnen were ass kissers, the emperor himself said that duke leto was gaining popularity in the landsraad meaning his imperial authority might be challenged by the atreides if leto ever so desired the imperial throne
@@warbossgrotsmasha23 I understand that reasoning. However, from my understanding, this is an empire. Popularity is insufficient to supplant a seated emperor, especially one who hasn't caused pervasive discord among houses. Now since the emperor has shown his diplomacy to instill dissonance among houses, houses should cease allegiance and commence the process of usurpation.
It was never specifically mentioned in the books, but imo Leto really was scheming for the Emperor's throne....too many of his actions (including not marrying Jessica, hoping for a 'favorable' political marriage) seem to suggest that
@@koko40800 That would make more sense. However, these actions still appear innocuous and preemptive for the emperor to go to extreme lengths: go behind everyone's knowledge to wipe out an entire house without risking all house rising up against the emperor. The most understandable and reasonable explanations left are that the emperor was paranoid and/or was given bad consult.
Leto was 100% right to think that his plan would have worked. But the internal betrayal was so immediate.
Yeah, the real problem was that the Emperor and/or the Harkonnen duke were already a step ahead of him
Short answer: We are House Atreides. There is no call we do not answer. There is no faith that we betray.
I was in a long and well informed debate with ChatGPT about this very topic. Glad to have found a human analysis on this.
Don't talk to the machines, its heresy
You’re repeating the same points over and over dude…
Seriously what am I hearing, this plus the monotone is worse than ai
These videos always do that
Facts this video is insane
With how monotonous this is i have suspiction that this is ai voice over too
What are you guys...like 10 year olds or something? Don't like fuck off.....simple really.
A better question. Knowing it was a trap why did he have his entire military on the ground instead of in space on high alert?
1. They didn't think the trap would be sprung so fast.
2. They didn't know a traitor would sabotage the defense generators.
How long could the military stay on high alert? Does the military have the right experience to know what constitutes a strange shipping pattern? Can they focus on both the orbital observation as well as dealing with Harkonnen saboteurs/loyalists performing sabotage? Ships are not allowed to remain in orbit per the Spacing Guild, so the vessels would have to be parked on the moons of Arrakis, leading to more potential locations that Harkonnen loyalists can strike at.
@@toddkes5890 Exactly. Even Pearl Harbor couldn't stay on high alert forever, knowing that Japan may "someday" sneak attact.
They could've at least put a bunch of satellites in orbit. As far as the doctor goes, doesn't the mark on his forehead indicate imperial conditioning? I would left him on Caladan or had his comings and goings monitored at all times. Especially since he's the royal's doctor.
@@_Omega_Weapon First Dune book: per the Spacing Guild, nothing allowed in orbit of Arrakis. Officially it is to prevent something from hitting a spice transport heading to a Heighliner, actually it is due to the Fremen bribing the Spacing Guild to let nothing go into orbit.
"When is a gift, not a gift?"
No the biggest question is Why were the defenses essientially left on the surface and unmanned when the attack came...one man took down a whole planet worth of security? I dont think so....The whole Atreides army was basically asleep when the attack came. The Duke knew it was a trap yet he made no preparations for it. They had spaceships, why not leave a sizeable force in orbit on alert ready to planetfall when needed or engage the enemy when the showed up....I know the disaster was plot driven, but come on, the Atreides were portrayed as excellent fighters feared by the Emperor, yet they made an lethal tactical error that basically killed them all.
This is a great question that you have, but I think the fact that this was a 1960s book series.
We think so much differently, 60 plus years last!
If you wanna create such an impressive world in the future that too 10000+ years in future that shouldn't happen.
Look at the Expanse books/show not a single battle has any loopholes or problems. @@BigRay910
Nothing was allowed in orbit around Dune by the Spacing Guild directive (paid off by the Fremen with spice, to keep themselves safe from prying satellites and such) and nobody could go against them. Also the Duke underestimated the Emperor's commitment in getting rid of the Atreides, providing them with Sardaukar troops (a very risky move as it would have rallied the Landsraad against him). Were it just the (inferior but more numerous) Harkonnen troops and if the house defensive fields and comms weren't immediately disabled because of an unforeseeable betrayal, Leto's plan might have gotten the time it needed to be succesful, gaining Fremen support while under siege by the Harkonnen.
What always nagged at me is that the Atreides didn't have any ships manned and ready to lift at short notice.
They were all asleep and they knew it was a trap. smdh....@@bobbybatara3718
Because "knowing there is a trap, it's the first step to avoiding it"
I think Leto thought his refusal would mean conflict as well. In the first scenario of him refusing, he would not get a chance to even defend Caladan and would let the Emperor have a "right" to punish House Atreides. In his second option, He hoped(I think) to expose the Emperor and befriend the Fremen. Can we argue he did the right thing after what Paul was able to achieve?
"8 minutes of unpleasant feeling acquired"
Duke Leto have Ned Stark vibes.
He also did it to weaken the Harkonnens. As stated they became fabulously wealthy from the spice trade. Doing this entire plan put them into debt to a massive degree. Such that the profits from the spice trade would mostly be used in paying of the debt.
The emperor can't directly control arrakis it's the rules he has to appoint someone to hold it and he gave to atreides so he could look innocent
Thank you for explaining this. I’m just a casual and watched the movie and loved it not knowing who was what.
I simply watched as a casual movie goer and fell in love with the universe.
Going to read the book and my Wife and I are watching the original this weekend.
My question is why did not Duke Leto send Duncan, Thufir, or Gurney? Leto should have stayed in Caladan but have sent a strong force to Dune. The Baron send Rabban to take the governorship of the planet. Why didn’t Leto do the same?
Because he planned to ally with the Fremen, not oppress them like the Harkonnen. Going there in person, showing respect and commitment increased the odds success.
Cause Leto isn't a bitch
Not an option. There’s a difference between Harkonnen’s rule and Leto’s. The Emperor gave the Harkonnen’s governorship over Arakis, which means they govern BUT they don’t control the planet. The Emperor granted Leto and his House fiefdom over Arakis, which means total control over the planet. BUT every house can only have fiefdom over one system, so accepting Arakis meant letting go of Caladan
Whats the name of the song playing in the background while you speak?
The soundtrack is from alien promethus movie
The first step in avoiding a trap is knowing of its existence.
I think the original 1980s movie version closed this logic hole as well as the book. It was the extraordinary cost estimated to take out the Attriedes and help from the Sardaukar that caught the Attreides off guard. Frank knew how to close off lines of logic very well.
The background music is so good, Atlantis!
From Prometheus I think.
The only other option was to pack up the entire house of atreides and bribe the spacing guild to drop them off on some random back water planet and live in exile.
Why didn’t they have ships in orbit to alert them? The destruction of Atreides was too easy when they supposedly knew it was a trap.
They knew it was coming but they thought they had months to prepare. They did not count on a) the emperor supporting the Harkonnen with his own tropps and b) that the Harkonnens would be willing to bankrupt themselves to pay the shipping costs to send such a massive force.
The spacing guild cost to transport such a massive attacking force should have been prohibitively expensive, this was a huge thing they were counting on.
The Spacing Guild didn't allow stuff to be in orbit around Dune. The Fremen paid them off in spice to protect themselves against prying satellites and such.
Plus, it took betrayal by the doctor, who was supposed to be totally loyal, to lower their planetary assault shields, otherwise the attack would have failed.
Because they can’t, this isn’t fucking Star Wars. The Spacing Guild has a monopoly on all forms of space travel, including the launching of satellites
The real reason why Dune was handed to Atreides is to keep both them and the Harkonens weak. To destroy Atreides if everything works, and to weaken and keep Harkonens under control. Or, if assassination of Leto failed, then destruction of Harkonens and weakening of Atreides would also be good. Emperor was thinking, however it turns out he will come out on top.
The reason why Harkonens lost Dune is because they were failing at Spice production - they did not earn immense riches at all. The Fremen were destroying too many of their harvesters no matter what Harkonens did and they were trying to hide that from the Emperor. But the Spice quotas were not met and the production kept failing. That negatively influenced the whole empire and the Guild so the change of ownership was needed because of mismanagement by Harkonens.
Baron himself says he beggared his own house financing the conspiracy takeover, paying the Guild for transfers and paying for Sardaukar legions, which meant they would be forever in Emperors debt, and also involved in a plot. The emperor wanted to screw them both.
Bennjesuit (sc) is the one who manipulated the emperor to wipe out the atraties (sc) because they couldn’t control them. And saw defiant in the eyes of Leto and his son.
What song did you use on the background??
i rhink this video’s background music was used in Prometheus, the Alien prequel.😅 it sounds really familiar. Anyways, I like it!
Great explanation.
"A sacrifice is best refuted by accepting it" - Wilhelm Steinitz
Leto was very popular in the Lansraad and was their de facto leader. The emepror was threatened by this and needed to eliminate him. He couldn't attack him in Caladan since it was too fortified and so he baited Leto out into going to Arrakis. Leto knew this might be a trap but he counted on having consolidated the support of the Fremen which were better fighters than the Sardaukars. To give you an idea, Fremen children and elders were able to take out Sardaukars which are known to be the best fighters in the imperium. With the Fremen and the Spice within Atreides control they would have been the most powerful house - more powerful than the emperor.
The problem is Leto underestimated the swift and savage attack of the Harkonnens and he certainly didn't thought that the Emperor would send his Sardaukar to help the Harkonnens. The amount of troops transported by the guild would have cost 50 years worth of spice.
Honestly you should be glad for how simple the movies are, in the book the explanations are much vague but at the same time it's more satisfying (i also would say the timeline is better in the movie, just too much cut)
Well, At least Duke Leto didn't die by slipping on a wet slippery rock when he was winning an epic boss fight....
what is the background music ?
Haven't read the book, just curious as to how long from the banquet scene before the atreides are attacked?
There is also the spacing guild and the Bene Gesserit. Both organizations would not allow the Emperor to assault the house of Atreides or take control of Arrikis. They have their own interests and schemes. Allowing the emperor to become that powerful would weaken these organizations, so they would to anything to overthrow the emperor
In the mini series they actually go over this
But wouldn't the Harkonnen be seen as betraying the Emporer's wishing by taking back the planet by force? How was that supposed to play out?
Wars between houses are fair game as long as the Emperor isn’t involved (which is why his involvement needed to be a secret). Harkonnen’s taking back a planet they had control for generations would be fair play, especially since the Atreides “declared war” first
@N3xtStopHell But they didn't in the movie. They did exactly what the Emperor publicly asked them to. The Harkonnen's attack would be seen as an 'F You' to the Emperor.
It wasn't long for Duke Lotto to be on Arruckus till the pahdedbra emperor Shaddap IV gave him the pink slip, had him fired. It was a good thing that the Lady Jazzica taught her son, Pall, the secrets of the Boni Maroni school of cooks. He learned the cooks voice where he could force anyone out of a room with a very nazel voice saying like, "Get Out Of The Kitchen! It'll Be Ready When It's Ready", and so forth. It's also good that Pall had trainers like Drunk In Omaha to teach him how to use the Swice Knife, use the saw, the can opener, and so forth. When the Baron Hardchargen has Pall and Jazzica stranded upon the sugar planes of Doon, Arrukus, a dessert planet totally devoid of entrees, he was able to gain acceptance from the sweat suit wearing Freedmenmen. With the guidance of Spillguard, Pall was able to master riding the giant pretzels that roam the sugar plains of Doon. He soon came to be their leader and gained control of the galaxy by disrupting the ability of the schlepping guild to transport goods through interstellar space by denying them the amber colored, mind altering liquid, that could only be found on Doon, known as beer. After all, no schlepping guild space trucker would want to haul a load across the galaxy unless he could kick back with a six pack afterward. This awesome story comes to a dramatic climax when all things come to a head when Pall must challenge the Baron Hardchargin to a bake off. Pall's Boni Maroni cooking skills prevail and he easily defeats the baron and the emperor has no choice but to give the baron the pink slip. National Lampoon's, "Doon", was a silly, but funny book that I read in the mid 1980s.
There's a line from baron Harkonnen from the 2000's version that summarizes this perfectly.
"You don't get more popular than the boss, Unless of course You're going to Sack him. Did I say that, How Im-politic of me."
I thought it was more he couldn't refuse
Dont forget the Benne Gesserit. They play a Role behind the scenes in all party’s
When you need to meet your word count requirement for an answer that could have been given in 1 minute: This Video
There is also the Bene Geserit influence which I don't fully understand if it adapts to the polittical changes or is the base influence underneath the Houses decisions. And th Spaceing Guild which is completely ignored in the recent films in my opinion
I mean.... duh. Imagine the Cali cartel says to Pablo, "Hey, come to Cali Columbia, and you can control my pwder on behalf of the cali cartel (like nothing will happen to you)" 🤣
I think this video does a mostly good job of explaining why the Emperor engaged in this convoluted plot to squash the Atreides, as opposed to simply sending Sardaukar legions to Caladan. To summarize, due to the balance of power within the Imperium, the Emperor needed to create a political theater which would mask/justify his decision to wipe out Atreides, but also create a strategic situation where they Atreides are on the back foot.
There are a couple other points I'd add for why the Emperor (may have) decided upon the "Dune = trap" strategy.
1) The act of relocating the Atreides, in itself, would uproot them and disrupt their defenses as they try to dig into a new, unknown territory. They were heavily dug into Caladan for several thousand years, and could count on a "home field advantage" against any invasion, so the "gift" of Arrakis removed that.
2) That new territory had been rigged from the start to be a death trap, first thanks to Arrakis's own harsh climate, but also thanks to Harkonnen saboteurs/assassins who stayed behind, keeping Atreides defenses messed up, as well as harming their ability to harvest spice, the most valuable commodity on the planet.
3) The sabotage of spice production could be pinned on the Atreides, which would dry up their popularity amongst the Landsraad, which was arguably their greatest strength. Something mentioned in the books, but not the film, is that a spice disruption would dramatically affect the income of most of the Landsraad members, since it would cause Guild shipping rates to skyrocket beyond their already extortionate rates. Plus, spice is a life-extending substance which kills its addicts only when they stop taking it. So, there were a lot of rich, powerful people who literally needed it to survive. Between threats to profits and life, a spice disruption seen as the fault of the Atreides would completely eliminate their Landsraad support, and thus create the pretense the Emperor would need to justify his actions if they ever became known.
Emperor made an offer that Atreides couldn't refuse
I think Leto was aware he was walking into a trap, but hewas hoping for an alliance with the Fremen to stave off the trap, but things didn't work out, he couldn't solidify an alliance, and he fell victim to the trap
And the trap sprang earlier than expected because of the Emperor's intervention.
There is no call that we do not answer, there is no faith that we betray
-Duke Leto
Harkonons won't be blamed for treason after taking the Arakis away from Atredies? They would be going against emperor's direct orders
War between houses is fair play.
I haven't read the book so I'm curious about what the emperor plans to do now - one house has defied him so he must take action right? Or is he hoping the other houses will attack the Harkonen so he gets rid of both houses?
The other houses wouldn't care much since it was done by the Harkonnens. They'd only stir to war if they knew the Emperor helped. The other houses would not be shocked by the move because House Atredies and Harkonnen had a vendetta feud spanning centuries.
2:59 what are you talking about? Atreides were developing a new sonic weapon (remember shields, melee weapons, projectiles and laser restrictions) and the emperor was afraid it'll be used against him.
You didn’t answer the question bro. Why?
The thing is he didn't have an option not to, because it was direct order, if he wouldn't have gone to arakis, if he would've said no, it would be against the emperor's rule, so firstly he didn't really have a choice and he probably taught that either way the house Atreides would be in danger but if he takes the order there is still a chance that the house Atreides could actually survive.
Good video
Do not forget the spacing guild who has a monopoly on orbital, interplanetary and interstellar travel.
For one thing saying no to the Stewardship & CHOAM Contract risked another Great House getting it, even extension for the Harkonnens. Remember there's the constant jockeying for power and influence. Any opportunity for short-term gain is jumped on by everyone
There is an over-interpretation, but the Korino royal family and other Landsrad nobles, especially Harkonnen, who previously ruled Arakas with oppression, did not know the true power of the Fremen. The Fremen had a deep relationship with the Smugglers, and used so much spice bribes that even the guild's satellites turned their direction. In other words, Spice Melange was mined and traded in enormous amounts through the bright world path, including guilds, but when it included the dark path, it was traded in quantities and values that were difficult to imagine. If the Empire and the Emperor had known the seriousness of this, they would have blocked the entire planet by using all of Sadauka instead of having Harkonnen and the like harvest the Spice Melange.
However, Corino did not know this, and similarly exported Pundi rice and other crops from planet Caladan, the consumption of which the entire universe depends on, through the guild, inferring a symbiotic relationship between the guild and smugglers, and through this, Frey, the actual ruler behind Arrakis. Find out Men's identity.
With Duke Leto willingly walking into this obvious trap, Emperor Shadam IV knew that Duke Leto would have a plan to fight against him, but he only knew it was the power of the Atraiders family itself, and the Spice itself. I never thought it would be the Fremen involved.
Therefore, Saddam IV focused on crushing the military power of the Atraiders family itself and used Harkonnen as a vanguard.
However, Duke Leto, who had had high hopes for the Fremen from the beginning, did not expect Harkonnen and the Emperor to take action so quickly. This was because Duke Leto's power was revealed through the guild's highlighter anyway.
In other words, Duke Leto assumed the guise of a somewhat unprepared conquering monarch who went down to Arrakis, relying on his frugal military power, but the emperor, who could not be sure of his true identity, instead tried to use all his strength to settle the matter at once. In other words, Leto's mistake in failing to get the timing right in the fight between Duke Leto and the Emperor will be painful.
However, this cannot be seen as a complete failure, as Leto's training with the Fremen ultimately ended the Corino family and broke the guild's monopoly. In fact, many people believe that Leto approached the Fremen to protect his beloved son, Paul, but it turns out that it is quite the opposite. Paul was a dragon's tooth that his father Leto had planted in the desert of Arrakis, and he survived and masterfully led the dragon army to conquer the entire universe.
Im curious as to how they actually harvest spice. Soon as any vibration is detected a worm comes literally 30 seconds later.
Also left out how they had developed a new secret weapon utilizing sound
Lol so if they knew it was a trap why didn’t they have proper security/force pro in place?
Apart from having the title of "Emperor of the Known Universe" and having supposedly the best army in the Imperium, the Emperor doesn't really have much power.
he has complete power over the landsarrad (the governing body of the imperium) , he has no power over the other factions that operate in the imperium (bene gesserit ,bene teilax , spacing guild , choam)
I have a hunch that Baron Harkonnen was the kind of dictator who appoints army officers based on patronage. It's very common in third world armies. That's why his army couldn't beat the Atreides without the Sardaukar. My question is, if Spice was in such high demand, why didn't they just haul a worm to another desert planet and grow spice there?
If I recall from the books, they already tried to cultivate the spice on other planets, but so far to no avail. This is most likely because Arrakis itself is unique in a way it has a very specific condition for supporting the worms ecosystem. And I think transporting the worms to another planet is a different kind of challenge altogether.
Adult sandworms are simply to big to catch them, especially unnoticed (I'd wager you'd need a pretty big operation drawing attention to do so) and young sandworms in their larval stage are probably too sensitive + transport in low gravity environment in space. Free water is basically highly toxic to sandworms, that's why arrakis is a desert because sandworms in their larval stage basically trap the water. If the fandom is correct (I haven't gotten to reading the books so far) a sandworms are also able to turn an entire lush planet into a desert as they proliferate and go through their life cycle.
Have you seen how big the sand works are
The book makes it pretty clear that that had been tried, and it had failed. And if I recall correctly, no one even knew the full life cycle and relationship of the spice to the worms until Leto II. I'm not sure he even shared that knowledge, given that they continued to terraform Arrakis and threaten the worms with extinction.
mega book spoiler : this has been attempted for eons and has failed for various reasons and at the very end of the saga a secret planet , chapterhouse has sand worms
creating spice via artifical means has also failed for eons. this too eventually happens
5:22 Huh? Nowhere does it say the Atreides army is remotely comparable to the Saurdakar. And we saw that when the small number of Saurdakar sent in were a devastating force against the Atreides. What they say is that, if they could recruit the Fremen, THEN they might have a force that’s comparable. Not that they have one already.
In addition, no one feared a Fremen/Atreides alliance, because no one understood just how powerful the Fremen actually were. And why would the Emperor want to destroy the Atreides based off a potential alliance, which wouldn’t even become a possibility unless he first gave Arrakis to the Atreides? That claim doesn’t make a single shred of sense.
in the book, it does say that the Atreides fighters were comparable man for man to the Sardaukars, just not in sheer numbers
Yes the book did say that😂 that's why they dressed as the Harkonen army instead of their army doing it themselves
It's one of the reasons the Emperor wanted them ended
@@L.S.0What you just said makes no sense. They were dressed as Harkonnen’s to make it seem like it was just a squabble between two houses and keep the Emperor’s hands clean, otherwise the Landsraad would unite against them. So if the book says what you say, then surely you would have a page reference to go with that claim.
@@ThorOdinson In Dune, when Hawat is talking to the Baron, explaining to him why the Fremen are a threat to the Emperor...
"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force - a small fighting force - to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
@@drisss1990 Do you have a chapter citation? Because I’ve read Dune several times. NOWHERE do I remember a passage saying anything like that. The opposite, as NO ONE thought the Fremen were a threat to the Emperor. Moreover, the plan to betray the Duke was hatched long before he was given possession of Arrakis. Seriously, if you’re going to argue, try not to just make shit up.
a little detail in the book were that the sardauka army that support the harkonnen were not free.
the emporer want the cost of the operation back from the Harkonnen.
Haron Harkonnen not only know he need the production of decades to pay back this service to the emporer. He even fear this loan will outlife him.
strategically it would be much smarter to refuse the gift and fight the imminent war from their home planet with great advantage
Why didn’t the other houses accept Paul’s ascension if Paul’s house already had influence over these houses?
I just reread it. Leto didn’t know of an attack or one so soon. He only believed that the emperor sent him there as a move to show how he handles is. Maybe test his strength and that of his house.
Leto decided to go because he wanted to gain desert power. Have the fremen on his side.
Leto also knew about spy but didn’t know who… like yueh.
Nope, Leto knew the Harkonnen’s would attack them he just didn’t know when or expected it to be so soon
because duke knew it was a trap he had to go. They would have found some other excuse and then destroyed the Atreides home world. Duke went to arrakis to find allies to re enforce his house which was a good idea considering his house was almost completely destroyed on arrakis when the immanent attack commenced. If that had happened on their home world there would be no fremen to ally with and in this case provide the manpower so the house does not go completely extinct since most of the survivors loyal to the duke were executed after the attack.
The Emperor had other reasons to elliminate House Atreides. If we allow the Brian Herbert House Trilogy books as cannon, Leto escaped imperial justice once. When the Harkonnens framed the Atreides for an attack on the Tleilaxu (after they annexed Ix illegally), Leto used an obscure but effective defense strategy during the trial and won. The takeover of Ix was a plan that the Emperor tacitly condoned, and Leto's win in court soured Shaddam's opinion of Leto
Leto represents the perfect leader just like the Starks are the most honorable and admirable house in GRRM books. They always are the ones that die or face great adversity.
he did it to Troll
Admiral Akbar
For the House of Harkonnen, one would think the other houses would go against that house since it disobeyed the Emperor by taking the planet back. I would think the Emperor would have to then take Harkonnen for going against decision that he made public to the other families.
Not really. Harkonnen was in a very powerful position because of the massive wealth that Dune provided. Also the Guild demanded exorbitant prices for ferrying armies limiting the fighting between the houses to mostly cloak&dagger stuff. And finally there was a 'legal' vendetta decladed between the Harkonnen and the Atreides, called a kanly.
It reminds me of the "Nibelungenlied" an epos from germany
I'm still a bit confused by the emperor's logic here. If it is that he wanted it to look like the Harkonnen taking back Arrakis by force, wouldn't that be perceived by the other houses as a direct affront to the emperor's will? Unless, of course, it was infact the emperor's will for those events to happen? If he took no action against house Harkonnen for this act, wouldn't he then seem complicit in it? Whether directly or indirectly?
yes it would be perceived against the emperor's will but it was also well known that the atredies and harkonnens are at war with each other and have been for centuries. the emperor could figure out a punishment to the harkonnens but secretly make it toothless as both houses are secretly in league with each other. the emperor could also decide to straight up say , the harkonnens won the war and as victors deserve the rights to the planet as long as the emperor gets his share (what actually happens)
If it would have been treason to refused the Emperor's "Gift" of Arakis, then why would it not have been treason for the Harkonnen's to take it back (by force)?
It doesn't make sense to me. A civilization/house with means of stellar transportation, a duke knowing that he's moving into a trap, a context setup for war and they don't have the concept of orbital/aerial surveillance ? Their anti-air platforms started to activate when harkonnen ships were already above the city. Weren't they supposed to be in a semi-alert state ? C'mon Leto.
This video portrait a very silly question !! Why does Leto Atreides still lead them to Arrakis even though he's aware it's a trap ??? Isn't it simple enough ?? Because Leto never expected a traitor !! Let me give you some reason why the Atreides loose:
1/ The great shield which covered the whole city has been brought down by the traitor, that's allow Harkonnen's orbital bombs to goes through, destroy all Atreides warship, leave them vulnerable to their bombardment and land assault !! Which mean with the shield still up, there's no way Harkonnen and Sardaukar warships can enter the atmosphere above the city !!
2/ Atreides's warships is heavily armored, armed and ultilized for vessels dual, meaning they will ALWAYS win in a vessel-to-vessel combat. At least to enemies like Harkonnen whose vessel are solely for ground support and deploy troops, acting more like a drop-ship than a supremacy warship !! The fact that no Atreides's warships were able to take off and join the fight essentially help enemies enter the atmosphere and drop tons of troops so easily !
3/ Harkonnen and Sardaukar use underhanded tactic: Night attack the city and backstab the Atreides's troopers !! You can clearly see that even in pajamas and sleepy state, Atreides's troopers still overwhelmed Harkonnen's troopers with literally no casualties ! That's already shown how skilled they are, and could only be defeated by Sardaukar troopers IN A FAIR BATTLE where both side have same values like in the same numbers and same equipment state !!
All of that means House Atrides CAN NOT loose if their advantages were not disrupted:
+ If the great shield still active, Harkonnen's falling bombs will never reach the city, but otherwise will just exploded on the shield and alert the Atreides army about the attack !!
+ With the great shield still there, deploy troops is impossible, nor sending any support down. Which mean the Harkonnen's numbers advantage and even Sardaukar troops will simply useless !!
+ Then the Atreides will be able to activate the warships, fly up and ANNIHILATED the Harkonnen fleet with minimum loses of warships because of their supremacy in vessel combat !
+ Sardaukar warships is also a threat, but since they come in small numbers (just 3 battalion), which equal to just 3 ships !! How tf can they survive a direct battle with Atreides fleet ??
I’ve never read these books and after seeing the first part recently I had no idea what was happening for most of it. After the second watch though, seemed to me that the emperor’s plan was kinda stupid. Like why wipe out the most loyal and least likely to rebel house while fueling the most wealthy and brutal house? Also there are hella people with the spice sight that could easily know the emperor’s true motives, and thus create a martyrdom from house Atreides
It is also important to note that you benegesseret (I butchered the shit out of that) had the emporer's ear also.
The film answers the first question. When is a gift not a gift?
There are always plans within plans.
The Emperor gave the planet to Leto, knowing it would piss off the Harkonens, the Harkonens would then kill the Atreides out of revenge. Even though both the Harkonens and the Emperor wanted the Atreides dead, the Emperor couldn't be seen to be pulling the strings. It was most likely be believed by the Landserat that it would just be a cold war for decades, not an all out slaughter.
Simple, the Atreides are vulnerable in a desert planet since their home planet Caladan is a mostly oceanic world where they rely mostly on sea power.
The emperor is a jealous man who feel threatened by the growing power and influence of House Atreides despite Duke Leto never having the intention of rebelling against him.
Duke Leto was aware of the threat however he also knows the advantage of gaining the alliance of the Freman which may help House Atreides secure a foothold on the Arrakis against external threats.
But why did Shaddam IV even considered giving Arrakis to the Atreides a a viable option to eliminate them? It was by far the riskiest thing he could have done, and he ended up paying the price.
Sure, the pay-off of winning the gamble would be immense, but his chances were slim; Moreover, although the continued power struggle would come back to bite him again, he could have easily remained in the throne by allying with the Atreides or setting them to be framed for treason without actually giving them a reason to "betray" his Empire.
And the elephant in the room: Did Shaddam ever know just how damn dangerous Jessica, a Bene Gesserit sister, was? And because of that the unequivocally uncanny nature of the birth of a male descendant of member of an order known for only giving birth to females?
And if he didn't know a thing, was it a good idea to pit the Harkonnen, the most wealthy house and owner of one of the largest private armies, against the ascending house of Atreides? In fact, the Harkonnen are so influential to Dune, that following the death of Vladimir, Rabban and Feyd, the descendance was immediately researched for a heir to be chosen; And thus it was found that Paul was the new head of the house because Jessica's biological father was no other than Vladimir himself.
So if the Harkonnen won, what would stop them from doing exactly what Paul, Jessica and the Fremen did to the spice production following the war in Arrakis?
It still does not make sense for the Emperor to not just take Arrakis for himself.
If he holds the planet then he can effectively make space travel impossible for anyone disloyal, and he could retake the rebeling planets at his leisure.
This is not like finding a large oilfield, this would be like finding the only oil filed on the entire planet, and a perpetual oil filed at that.
I would have stationed my entire fleet there armored to the teah and imdelty seint Sardaukar to kill all opesion on the planet.
Tossing such a vital and important planet into games of policies is beyond reckless
Wayyyyy too many people commenting who haven't read the books. Yes the movie had to leave certain details out because of time limits so some things are confusing but in short all the major powers knew of the plot and let it happen. That includes the bene gesserit and the space guild. All space ships are owned by the guild because only they know how to create the mutants using spice who can create faster than light ships
I mean, despite the Harkonens being favored by the Emperor, I thought it would be a huge insult to go against the emperor's order no matter how you feel about it. So attacking Duke Leto on Arakis so soon after it was given to his house by the Emperor should have landed the Harkonens in hot water for it instead of having a free hand to do whatever they wanted. But I can only guess that the book will explain it if and when I finally read it.
The atreides were becoming super popular
Because knowing it’s a trap is the first step in evading it…
One thing I like about Dune is, all the characters have really quite clever plans.
The Emperor's plan would've wiped out both of his biggest political rivals (the Atreides and the Harkonnens) without turning the Landsraad against him, by supplying the Harkonnens with troops to attack the Atreides at their expense, so the Harkonnens go bankrupt and take the blame whilst the Atreides get wiped out. And he'd be able to make a ton of money selling his stockpile of spice because of all the disruption the incident caused.
Meanwhile, the Atreides and the Harkonnens had similar plans: train the Fremen into a formidable fighting force which could rival the Sardaukar, and place one of their family members on the throne to take over the Empire. The details differed - the Baron Harkonnen wanted Rabban to oppress the Fremen so much that Feyd-Rautha would seem like a saviour by comparison, whereas Leto wanted Paul to actually improve the Fremen standard of living.
And the Atreides won because Paul implemented his plan before the Harkonnens finished implementing theirs, and the Emperor underestimated the strength of the Fremen army and so didn't bring enough of his Sardaukar to defeat them.
Everyone seems to be missing the point that Leto (in the movie never read the books), never married and kept himslef open to take the princess's hand when he achieved his goals, so Leto was planning on taking the Emperor anyway and it's highly likely the Emperor guessed this.
What I don’t get is with how long spice has been around why didn’t they breed the worms in different planets to make more spice? Also does the emperors bloodline come from Arrakis because they couldn’t travel planets before then so how did anyone discover it or space travel?
Pride and overconfidence since he's been taking a lot of W's for years. He never had the foresight that there's treachery from the most unexpected place.
Just read the book, everything you need is there.
But the Emperor had the Sardukar, so why could he not use the Sardukar to quell any rebellion from the other houses if he took Arakis for himself. He had a whole planet to recruite Sardukar troops, so while he had Arakis, he could fuel multiple fleets of Sardukar to lay waste to uprisings. Right? Just like any tyrant would in our real world....
The Emperor could beat any individial house, but not all houses combined and the CHOAM and the Spacing Guild, which would have happened if he had taken direct control of Arrakis. It was the check designed in the system to prevent the emperor from gaining absolute power, as clearly shown by Paul when the took control of Dune and directly strong-armed the Spacing Guild (actually the most powerful entity of all, though crippled by their need for spice) and though them forced everybody else to do his bidding.
interplanetary invasions are insanely expensive, the fees to the spacing guild are immense, the fees the harkonnens paid the spacing guild almost bankrupted them , the emperor is the richest in the imperium but he does not have infinite money. the harkonnens are also insanely wealthy, they are a major house and it took everything they had to pay for the invasion.
Pride, arrogance, and the love of the game. Duke Leto was as much of a bullfighter as his father was. Other than cultivating the Fremmen, we don't really know the Dukes full plan. I guess it would be get as much Spice as possible. Keep the same levels of Spice production and use the extra spice to make allies. I don't think Leto wanted to marry Paul to Irulan, or marry into the Imperial family himself.