How much flux do you really need - forge welding
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 сер 2018
- Most of us already know we use to much welding flux when forge welding. Today I will conduct a simple test with both borax and iron Mountain welding flux to see how far flux flows into a joint during forge welding
Thank you for watching. Black Bear Forge is a small one person shop located in Southern Colorado.
If you would like to take a more active role in the production of these videos, you may provide financial support through one of the two links below.
www.paypal.me/BlackBearForge
Or you may set up a monthly contribution through Patreon
/ blackbearforge
I have set up a Facebook group just for my UA-cam channel.
If you would like to share your work that was inspired by my videos
This is the place to do that
/ 101400907400310
Find my shop on line at:
www.blackbearforge.com
www.blackbearforge.etsy.com
/ blackbearforge
/ black-bear-forge-20986...
The following list provides just a few resources to help you find supplies and equipment for blacksmithing.
www.oleoacresfarriersupply.com/
www.piehtoolco.com/
www.centaurforge.com/
www.blacksmithsdepot.com/
www.blacksmithbolt.com/
www.oldworldanvils.com/
www.nimbaanvils.com/
fontaninianvilandtool.com/
www.abana.org/
www.mcmaster.com
kensironstore.com/
Blacksmithing and related activities can be hazardous. These videos are not a substitute for competent professional instruction. Your safety is your sole responsibility. Always use appropriate safety equipment including eye and ear protection when working in the shop. Follow manufactures safety guidelines for the use of all equipment. In the event something shown in one of these videos seems unsafe, it is up to you to make the appropriate changes to protect yourself.
I follow at least a dozen blacksmithing channels here on UA-cam and I have to say that out of all of them, this is the one that I enjoy watching the most. I learn a lot from your techniques and only do so because of the calm, instructional way that you work. Thanks very much and all the best
Also, for an extra clean mind, I was taught to use my business card and make a line of the spilled borax on the anvil - the longer the better.
And then smash that line. For increased speed, add coke dust.
Makes me wonder what kind of coke you might be using when making lines 😜
Blacksmithing - Joey van der Steeg, LOL 😂
Next time making lines don’t forget to call me
Did the mill scale get removed first? Does flux remove mill scale or any scale? Does flux keep the weld clean during heating so it does not form scale? Im so confused!
Pretty funny. Thanks for the smile
When you said your name and that you are an over fluxer thought this was a therapy session for blacksmiths
Same cracked me up lol
one thing I do have to do is make a flux spoon! every time I forge weld I remember I swore I was going to make one last time I forge welded and got flux powder everywhere...........
Next test the "flux swirl method" lol I'm talking full submersion :-) Great video John!
Christ Centered Ironworks reading this I was half way wondering if you were serious or joking at first but I take it as a joke.
Seen a few advocates of alcohol with flux mixed in or kerosene to soak something in before attempting to weld ie (roller chain damascus)
You need 2lbs per welding heat, otherwise it doesn't work.
😂👍
Blacksmithing - Joey van der Steeg ,I thought you didnt use flux?I am a little dissapointed in you,lol,just kidding.We need more vids from Joey!
Love the experimentation, John! This is the closest thing I've seen to definitive evidence of flux use parameters.
Thanks
I hope your 12 step program works out for you.Good luck.
Always been something people are doing because they were being tought to use abundant flux, but in reality, it doesn't require that much; and some won't use flux at all. But in this video, it shows clearly that flux makes it a cleaner metal without using too much of it. Thank you John for this useful clip.
Borax melts at 1365, scale forms at 1400, scale falls off freely at 1750 and forge welding temp max's out at around 2300. Something I found interesting just now is borax does not boil till 2867. Looking at the one test you can almost see that one side is the mirror image of the other. Where there's an area on one that was clean surface the other had the residue. Since borax reduces the boiling point of iron oxide I bet the residue was just that, iron oxide that had solidified.
Good info! Thanks for taking us along!!
Very informative thanks John
Good test here John, got a lot out of this.
Sir, that was a great opening line.👍👍👍
Thank you.
Great experiment John. Thanks for putting it out there.
They are on my long term list
Man.. your opening are gold! (content as well ^^)
Loved this experiment. Would like to see some other fluxing products and methods tested.
Interesting, I know I would use way to much flux. Seem I have that habit, if a little works , a lot works better. When I reach this stage of trying welding I will keep in mind not to over flux. Thank You!
Awesome!
In the woodworking world, the analog of forge welding would be laminating work. When there's a time pressure situation the tendancy is always to apply way too much adhesive. I imagine as you gain experience, like in my wood working, you will develop a feel for little you can get away with. Another consideration if you have cats, borax is insanely toxic to them. That might be another caution for not getting flux all over the place. Another great video!
You should do a control piece that you don’t put any flux on and that will help clear up some of your questions on the pieces great video John never seen anybody do a test like that before keep up the good work on the videos
Love the intro.lol
Interesting
I'm an over fluxer too, 😂😂😂. Nice experiment! I think I once heard someone say you could use sand as flux, but I think he uses coke (in his forge 😉). I think it was Joey.
I think most wrought iron was fluxed with sand during the manufacturing proccess
I loved how you used controls: All same heat in the same forge for the same time, on the same prepared materials, and just adjusted the flux quantity. Also as an addict, who attends meetings, I enjoyed your intro: "Hi, I'm John. I'm an over-fluxer. Excellent application of key parts of the scientific method. Started with a chuckle. Loved it!
Thank you very much!
Funny you are using the 20 Mule Borax today. I watched the 20 mule borax wagons being built on UA-cam this morning and learned the story behind that brand of soap. The rear wheels on those wagons weight 1080 lb each. All the hardware on those wagon was forged and forge welded.
I've seen that video. It's quite interesting seeing how they have to put the tires on.
That's not too hot to touch. Just doesn't take long to estimate the weight! ⚖🔥⚒🐻
Yup- if a little bit is good then more is better- I know that and STILL use more than require. Would like to see you reweld and then see if you can split the welds.....
Dave
So, if flux produced clean steel, could you use it for de-scaling surfaces instead of
acid or grinding ?
Yesterday I tried to weld without flux it did take but it took longer and wasn’t as clean but it is possible in a gas homemade forge I did chock off a lot of air intake
Great video. Am thinking (from where I was watching) that the clean surface is where the flux got in and removed the scale. The rest looks more like scale?
As you know that is why one needs to add flux several times or start with a very clean surface and hammering out the scale & flux mixture? As in stands to reason why one needs to do several things for a good weld apart from just fusing the metal together. Was it flux or scale it was hard to see. I have done a few experiments whereby I added just flux on metal and it comes up all shiny. It looked like what you had in part.
Good experiment. It would be cool to do some more and maybe add a control in the form of no flux with one that has scale and one that is clean of scale and maybe giving one lot a one time pass with the hammer.
Most of the darker spots are flux that is stuck to the cold material. That of course would be expelled during the weld
The thing I was taught in soldering pipes both as by the plumber I worked for when I was fifteen and the AC&R teacher in VoTech in high school in 1980 was that flux is for that last bit of cleaning, and you don't need a lot. Same thing soldering switches into wiring in the Navy, use the least amount of flux that you can. For forge welding, it seems to me you would be better off grinding the mill scale off first so you only really need to deal with the heat scale from the forge, make sense?
Makes sense, but in most cases you forge, scarf and weld without ever leaving the forge and anvil, so taking the time to grind is highly inefficient. Smiths have been welding without grinding for centuries, so while it my help in theory, I doubt its necessary in practice. Although with large flat surfaces such as a billet of Damascus I think it is probably good idea to grind first.
You can also use sand as a flux (white beach sand).
There are lots of options for flux.
I read in a old book that sand only works for wrought iron
Yeh, I use too much, its like sugar, unless you kick the habit heaps is never enough!
A a o-f over fluxer meating
Tony Montana wants his spoon back. ; )
Is it ever okay and/or possible to not use flux at all when welding?
Flux is helpful but not required. Although I would say that many gas forges cause more oxidation and in that case flux becomes more important.
I am sure that EZweld and iron mt flux have there 'secret blend', but is there a recipe for the DIY (read that as 'cheapskates') version? I have read where some add powdered steel, gathered from the bench grinder or angle grinding area, via a magnet. My success with adding it to borax seemed to yield no conclusions. Thanks John!
Straight borax is pretty good. Iron filings added may help a little, but are not required. You can mix other fluxes with borax to make them go further. I am sure there are recipes out there for do it yourself flux.
Home Depot sells flux for $6 a 2 lbs can I don’t think u will find it cheaper. Borax is only about $5 in the supermarket. And it goes a long way.
I may have missed it, was the last one that you over fluxed borax or iron mountain? Thanks great job.
The one from the beginning of the video was fluxed heavily with borax
Black Bear Forge thanks for the clarification.
The "thicker" areas ascribed to flux seem to be the mate to the "clean" steel.
As the joint wasn't hammered, possibly the flux did its job and peeled the millscale off the clean area and was stuck to the opposing face instead of being ejected from the weld?
Just pulled the scale off by sticking the removed flakes to the opposing face and came away from cooling stress?
I think that is exactly the case.
Thank you for taking the time to reply!
I'm new to coal how does flux contribute to clinkers? Does flux hurt any other part of a coal forge ?
I know and understand what it does to wool and soft bricks but I havent seen much info on what it does in coal.
Flux won't damage a coal forge, which is a real advantage to welding in coal. The flux does add to the clinker build up whiuch is a good reason not to use to much
Black Bear Forge thanks for the reply. I have limited experience with both but have definitely struggled with managing/gauging heat in coal vs propane though I typically see less scale in coal vs propane.
So that was no precleaning of hot.rolled? And do u usually pre gring of ur.mill.scale on hot rolled?
I generally don't do anything. It scales as you heat it anyway. The flux helps clear off any scale and is one of the main reasons to use flux.
Thank u. I kinda figured. But as a man who just got a 2nd burner build n can now achieve Forge welding heat I figured I'd ask. I did how ever get a weld on what u showed as a way 2 make a simple fire poker. But i did clean scale 1st
How long does it take, let’s just take for instance what your example was here, to get to welding heat in your propane forge?
For something this size the first heat is probably about 5 minutes assuming the forge is already up to heat. Subsequent heats go a bit faster.
To flux or not to flux.... that is the question.
I’ll stick with my flux capacitor.
A lot of european smiths don't use flux at all for mild steel but rather focus on having good fire control instead
A good fire is vital whether you use flux or not.
Certainly!
Hi there I'm a greenhorn and I'm an over fluxer my Majestic Forge looks like a methods teeth too much flux is bad
The floor of my Forge it looks pretty bad but what's really taken the damage is the walls especially by the floor
I want to learn forge welding and difficult to get Iron Mountain flux in here.. Is that Borax works well?
Borax is good for flux. Adding some iron filings can help make it better.
@@BlackBearForge thank you!
Is it true you don’t need flux when welding wrought iron I heard it self fluxes.
They used to flux it with sand as part of the manufacturing process and people like Peter Ross who use a lot of wrought iron still use flux.
Its great say "borax", there is no real Forge Supply shops in Australia and many American words don't carry over here. Is all borax the same'ish? I can buy jewelers borax for gold/silver, is that the same stuff?
Gameco sells anyhdronous borax, which is what I have (it was on sale, but regular supermarket borax is fine too)
Aldi and Bunnings borax is fine to use, woolies and coles stuff sometimes has perfume in it that really iritates the eyes if you get a face full of fumes from it, still works as a flux okay though. Woolies and Coles you will get a small container, ALdi and Bunnings a larger container all for around 10 bucks. It is generally in with the cleaning stuff.
Thanks man, great help :)
Check this mob out Duncan. www.stockmanssupplies.com They actually have the iron mountain flux used in the vid. But I just use brazing flux from CIG. Its pink stuff Hey, can we have a beer sometime 🤔.............. Sorry, couldnt help myself😀 I'll show myself out the door now 😐
What the flux are you talking about. I can't understand? Had to much flux last night. John, Iron Mountain Flux is on line one and The Borax company is on line 2. They want to know if you're fluxing involved with Flux Anonymous?