The miao dao is interesting... It's a (later) military response to the Japanese katana. While the katana itself is a refinement of the Chinese tang dao that passed to Japan earlier in history.
Existing swords called tan dao(唐刀) do not exist in China, only in Japan.The official name of the sword that is considered a tan dao in Japan is Karayouno Tachi(唐様大刀), which means Tang dynasty-style ornamented Tachi and made in Japan.The Tang Dynasty sword that actually exists is a double-edged sword.There were also surveys in China and Korea, but the conclusion was that tan dao did not exist in the Tang dynasty. Survey results in China. A knife like the tan dao has not been excavated in China, and only similar ones can be seen in old paintings from the Sui and Tang dynasties, and there seems to be no clear historical record of this type of sword. 中国本土却没有出土过这种刀具，只在隋唐时期的古画上见过类似的，好像也没有确切史料记载过这种刀剑，如果有知道的请告诉我。 Tan dao has not been found in China, the Korean Peninsula, or Japan. 至于所谓的唐样大刀，则是日本改进后的唐朝横刀，但是正宗的唐朝横刀在中国、朝鲜半岛、日本都没有出土过实物。 Also, no clear historical materials have been found that the origin of katana is tan dao. 而且，我也没有找到明确的史料记载，说是日本刀是发源于唐样大刀。 Katana originates from the Japanese sword warabiteto (curved sword). 日本刀起源於日本本土的蕨手刀（彎形） Survey results in Korea. Some people argue that tan dao is the origin of katana, and such claims are often quoted in articles in Korean cultural magazines. However, no scholars from various countries have officially claimed tan dao as the origin of katana. It is speculated that it is probably one of many kinds of Chinese-originating distortion of history. The tan dao relics that exist in Japan have no curves and are double-edged, while the katana is curved and single-edged. 당대도 기원설: 당대도가 일본도의 기원이라는 주장주장2을 펼치는 사람들도 있고, 종종 한국의 문화지 기사에도 그런 주장이 인용되는데, 정작 다른 여러 나라의 학자/학예사 중에서 정식으로 당대도를 일본도의 기원이라고 주장하는 사람은 없기 때문에, 아마도 여러 종류의 중국발 역사왜곡 중에 하나인 것으로 짐작된다. 일본에 남은 당대도의 유물은 곡선이 전혀 없는 데다가 일본에서 보관 중인 당대도 유물은 끝 부분이 펄스엣지, 즉 양날이지만, 일본도는 도신 자체가 곡선인 외날 도검이다. 다만 이는 일반적인 당대도의 모습이 아닌 장식성이 강한 일종의 레어한 모습으로 당대 중국 본토 대부분의 당대도 유물은 일반적인 도 형태다. 현재 견당사가 가져온 당대도(唐大刀)의 레플리카가 일본에 존재한다. 일본도의 전신인 타치의 외장 금구와 손잡이의 어피등 장식성에서 상당한 영향 끼친 것으로 보인다.
It's actually a adaptation of nodachi not katana, it's not a response to a particular sword either it was not use against pirates but rather raiders at the northern border, that's not where the katana comes and tang dao is a modern name first came about thanks to inaccurate sword replicas trying to hop on the katana bandwagon. The roots are wantō first created by people that used to live in northern Japan. "February 26, 2020 Wantō (湾刀): Early Curved Japanese Swords"
@@eagle162 You are right that the miao dao, aka dan dao or chang dao, is probably an adaptation of odachi, with some alterations. However, I must add some nuance to your correction regarding Tang dao and the roots of the katana/tachi. First, regarding Tang dao, I think you are getting too caught up on the terminology. Tang dao might be a modern term, but it should be understood as referring to swords that were in use in Tang dynasty China. While some replicas have historically questionable fittings, the form and proportions of the blades are generally correct. Tang dao range from short daggers, to ring-pommel swords, non-ring-pommel swords, to very long dedicated two-handed swords. They might differ in size and fittings, but some things are universal to Tang dao. They always have straight, relatively narrow blades, thick spines, and a small amount of distal and profile taper. Most surviving examples have ridged cross-sections, like a kiriha-zukuri or shinogi-zukuri, though occasionally, they have flat wedge cross-sections. They also show distinct, hardened edges that form a straight pattern, a suguha hamon, in Japanese terms. Regardless of internal variation, we are talking about Chinese swords from roughly the 6th to 10th centuries, or slightly beyond. They have been best preserved in places like the Shousouin in Nara, though less well preserved blades and fittings sets have been found in China as well. They are not just a modern invention, though admittedly, some manufacturers have capitalized on their historic relationship to Japanese swords as a marketing tactic. Now on to your claims about wantou and the roots of the katana. I have read that Gunsen article before, and I looked at it again. While it is almost certainly the case that the early tachi draws design features from the waribitetou of the native Emishi people, it would be ridiculous to dismiss continental chokutou as having contributed to the development of tachi. I say this for several reasons. The late Heian period tachi features a ridged cross-section, a tang construction secured by pins, and a distinct ridge that marks the transition to the point (a yokote). These are all features of continental swords of the time. The "yokote" on Chinese swords of the time comes about quite naturally because of the ridged cross-section blade and the very angular tip. These tips are somewhere around 45 degrees. Thus, these blades have a very "geometric" look to them. We might also look at the fittings found on tachi. They are slung from two suspension loops found on the scabbard, which is again a feature of continental swords, most likely originating in Sassanian Persia. In contrast to what I just described, waribitetou have flat wedge cross-sections, no yokote, and a one piece construction that combines hilt and blade. They are also broader and shorter swords. Looking at diagrams of these swords, one can see that the kenukigatatachi is already quite a departure from earlier waribitetou and exhibits some features of continental swords. I will also add that one of the waribitetou examples that Gunsen provides has a very similar blade form to one of the Chinese swords in the Shousouin, namely the example of a type 3 with a double-edged tip. To me, this all points to the most probable conclusion regarding the development of the tachi and katana. That is, they are not the descendant of any singular sword type, but the result of combining features from different sword cultures, both native Emishi, and continental Chinese and Korean. The curvature of Japanese swords is rather unique in that the hilt curves in the same direction as the blade. Seeing as how Chinese swords were all straight, this is clearly a feature taken from the waribitetou. We also find small disc guards on waribitetou, connecting it to the disc guards of tachi. In contrast, Chinese swords of the time had small cross-guards. But then, the tachi has a long, fairly narrow profile with a ridged cross-section and a yokote, which resembles the continental swords. Indeed, considering that both continental-style swords and Emishi swords saw widespread use in Japan during this period, it would be rather astounding if somehow only one of them influenced the design of later swords. Even in China, simply having contact with Turkic and Persian peoples affected their sword design, namely in the shape of the guards, pommel caps, and suspension system. They may have also introduced the inclusion of back edges on otherwise single-edged swords, a feature that ultimately made its way to Japan. I know this has been very lengthy, but I hope that when you correct people, as I've sometimes seen you do in the comments of Matt Easton's videos, you'll be a little more nuanced, so as to avoid creating new misconceptions.
@@copyleftclaim7112I understand that however my problem with the name tang dao and why come to dislike it, is the large amount of modern replicas distorting information, type in the name your more likely to see inaccurate ones then actually historical ones particularly in English, often taking cues from Japanese swords crafts that did not exist during tang dynasty causing inaccurate claims. There's a large discussion regarding swords during that time. This video I think talks about that a bit. 科普：一本正经说唐刀！-哔哩哔哩 Shousouin is not as reliable of a time capsule like people think majority of the artifacts were actually made in Japan which many were stolen or altered throughout the history, it's debatable on how many swords were actually imported, this mention that. 剑锋刀背，外形酷似日本正仓院“唐大刀”，扬州博物馆真把出土唐刀当成宋剑？ Shinogi-zukuri is a later development. Gunsen article about chokuto mention their role regarding development, however that is regarding the tachi, I was more focus on katana early uchigatana were actually shorter than chokuto and blades resemble the ones in the image where it says "a series well-preserved emishito"
"It looks like it handles like a longsword or a kriegmesser, those are close enough" -- what I'll have to keep telling myself so I'm not overcome with the need to add another sword to the collection.
@@ahuman6277 I salute both your decisions and your wallet. Together, you keep sword makers afloat... And yourself less afloat :D (Too bad there's no dungeoneering or adventuring to earn back the money with steel in hand!)
The impetus for the development of MIAO DAO. Chinese Ming Dynasty General Qi Jiguang (1528-1588) "This is what I learned for the first time when the Japanese attacked Ming. They moved like a dance, and the forward rushing force seemed to flash light, and our Ming soldiers were just distracted. Japanese are very active and move about 3m at a time. Since the length of katana is 1.6m, it will be attacked even at a distance of 4.8m. It is difficult to approach with my soldier's sword, it is too late with a spear, and if we encounter them, everyone will be cut off and killed. This is because their weapons are sharp and they are free to use powerful and heavy swords that can be swung with both hands. " "For Japanese, a fowling gun from a distance is effective. But the Japanese have absolutely no fear and charge at point blank range where they can attack or stab. It also takes time while our gunners load their bullets, That's why Our soldiers often allow them to approach. We cannot stop their momentum. Japanese swordsmanship is light and long, Our gunners move too slowly after allowing them to approach. Our swords are not effective weapons for throwing away guns and responding immediately. Therefore, we should equip ourselves with Japanese-style long swords." 明 戚继光 纪效新书 此自倭犯中國始有之。彼以此跳舞、光閃而前、我兵已奪氣矣。倭善躍、一迸足則丈餘、刀長五尺、則丈五尺矣。我兵短器難接、長器不捷、遭之者身多兩斷、縁器利而雙手使、用力重故也。 今如獨用則無衛、惟鳥銃手賊遠發銃、賊至近身再無他器可以攻刺、如兼殺器則銃重藥子又多、勢所不能、惟此刀輕而且長、以備臨身棄銃用此。況有殺手當鋒、故用長刀備之耳。 Chinese Ming Dynasty Martial Artist Cheng Zongyou (1561-1636) "We call that Japanese weapon dandao. A single sword is used with both hands. This is a technique unique to Japanese people. The technique is well trained, precise and solid. Japanese swords are easy to handle, and each one makes sense, including the handle and scabbard. No other sword can match the Japanese sword. A well-polished Japanese sword reflects the light of the sun and hits our eyes. The light makes our hearts cold. In Japanese swordsmanship, the change from side to side is strange and mysterious, and it is not predictable to ordinary people. Therefore, even if we use polearms such as spears, we are always defeated by Japanese swords. " 明 程冲斗 单刀法选 单刀说 器名单刀，以双手用刀也，其技擅自倭奴，锻炼精坚，制度轻利，靶鞘等物，各各如法，非他方之刀可并，且善磨整，光耀射目，令人心寒。其用法 左右跳跃，奇诈诡秘，人莫能测，故长技每每常败于刀。 Portuguese Jesuit Missionary Luis Frois (1532 - 1597)"Western swords have a one-handed handle and are the size of a fist, but Japanese swords are two-handed." El puño de nuestras armas es justo el que cabe en una mano; el suyo pasa de un palmo y a veces de tres. (Japón）Los japoneses cogían la katana con las dos manos.
"Japanese are very active and move about 3m at a time. Since the length of katana is 1.6m, it will be attacked even at a distance of 4.8m." How realistic is this? For anyone who practices Kendo, can you really lunge and strike someone at a distance of 4.8m?
@@mindroverjpc Not Kendo here, but trying it out, a controlled passing step achieves a distance of about 4-5 paces (4 natural footsteps). It's basically half to 75% that stated distance, but it is sufficient to bypass and remain safety behind the spear tip of a long spearman, which would screw over Chinese spearmen who are out of formation pretty well. Combine with a particularly long sword, interesting things can be achieved.
@@mindroverjpc I think that the Japanese warriors were much aggressive, unpredictable with their forms, quick onto their feet is what makes them topple many other soldiers.
One thing to note here that all those ancient materials shows that the Japanese sword famous at that time is the much much longer (1.6m) than the katanas popular today. Which is why Miao Dao today is a very different weapon than katanas including Taichi. Also the "Miao Dao" in this video is not really Miao Dao as it is not long enough
I don't know where they got these specific models from, but you can get both the long two handed jian and miao dao from LK Chen (they allow you to buy the swords in "not sharp" format). LK Chen sells ancient Han Dynasty/Chu kingdom two handed jians (under the models: Roaring Dragon and Striking Eagle) and sells the Miao Dao (under the model Silver Swallow Miao Dao).
@@rimroth5224 I don't know where they got these specific models from, but you can get both the long two handed jian and miao dao from LK Chen (they allow you to buy the swords in "not sharp" format). LK Chen sells ancient Han Dynasty/Chu kingdom two handed jians (under the models: Roaring Dragon and Striking Eagle) and sells the Miao Dao (under the model Silver Swallow Miao Dao).
1:34 - worth waiting! 1:58 - this one too This would be lore-accurate lightsaber combat for me: cautious, thight, linear bladework, elegant strikes. Fencer with straight sword look sharp!
Not bad , still need a lot more foot work practice and attention to your own center line as well as your opponents. Other than that you both have a fair idea of direction and striking with forward movement Nice background and open shot
These longswords are a good example of why crossguards became so large on Western style longswords; a lot of those hand hits would be easily deflected by a western sword.
Not necessarily. While Western long swords do have cross guards, the guards don’t offer much protection, as they are still a small piece of metal that covers a small area of your hand. If you are talking about something like a basket hilt, it makes more sense.
@@FeelAlrightInc True, you can snipe easily around a crossguard. They are more to prevent opponent's blade from sliding off yours when you are performing something from a bind, and get bigger at the same time as blades get more pointy and cut-and-trust fencing oriented (as opposed to earlier "viking" swords which were more cutting-oriented).
Although, after watching the video I can say that a significant portion of hits to the arm happened while one person was trying to cover the line of attack, while the opponent's blade was sliding down into his arm. With a crossguard it could have been prevented.
The cross does not really protect your hands that much, as the amount of hand snipes in HEMA tournaments are insanely huge. What the cross guard actually do that it allows you to control and suppress the opponent sword in ways ( like the winding in Liechtenauer's tradition for example) that Asian swords with disc guard could not.
They don't add much passive protection, but a solid cross guard adds lots of protection if you are aware of hand sniping and use the guard appropriately.
I don't know where the video creators got these specific models from, but you can get both the long two handed jian and miao dao from LK Chen (they allow you to buy the swords in "not sharp" format). LK Chen sells ancient Han Dynasty/Chu kingdom two handed jians (under the models: Roaring Dragon and Striking Eagle) and sells the Miao Dao (under the model Silver Swallow Miao Dao).
I recommend trying to get a bigger disc guard, here's an example type this in and then look up the images. "This uchigatana’s over a meter long! Daily life katana were regulated under a certain length after Sengoku Jidai ended, but battlefield swords could still be quite large."
I think the hand of the long sabre user getting hit may actually have to do with the bulky lobster gloves, rather than the sword design or the techniques. The only thing that comes close to those gauntlets anything Japanese related is the practice mittens used in itto ryu schools, that are specifically designed to be struck in katas.
@@adenyang4398 you may have a point. Good observation still tho I would be interested to see a East Asian sword with a bigger disc guard actually use in sparring since it's usually the small variety and people are not often the way of the bigger ones, I'm curious to see and hear people's opinion on how different it feels.
@@adenyang4398by the way I remember you mentioning a while back that katanas during the sengoku era could have a pommel with a spike on it, could you possibly share some more info on that and some images. Did pommels like that also existed in China and Korean? Also in Japanese martial arts the disc guard is also use like a weapon similar to a cross guard, however I'm unaware of any reference using the guard like that in Korea or chinese martial arts do you perhaps know any?
@@eagle162Here is one under Gunsen’s reply in the last picture: “Why do people think Japanese sword designs are limited (often being compared to the entirety of Europe or so)?” - Quora There were differently designed spike kashira examples, but I can’t seem to find them now. Koryu styles related to Shinto traditions (kashima and katori shrines) supposedly can have their regular swordsmanship directly translatable to armored fighting, since a katana’s quality can make them very nimble up close depending on the techniques used. They seem to heavily parallel Chinese dao, which use a lot of techniques involving support & leverage using the spine. Other than the disc guard, there’s also the S-shaped guard commonly found among Chinese dao (dadao and taiji sabre). This guard can use striking and trapping techniques, but also has the benefit of not being able to be easily grabbed or wrenched unlike a standard European crossguard. (nor interfere with tight circling arm movements of katana or dao)
hey guys great video, thanks. a pity that the miao dao user isn't doing any miao dao moves tho, he totally using it like a two handed sword, would toally love to see more
Could someone more familiar with Chinese MA tell me what style this is? So many of the movements _seem_ European to me, but I'm wondering if it's more likely convergent evolution.
Visually this group does look like they're doing European-like techniques in this duel atm, but they have dug into the Chaoxian Shifa (late Ming dynasty 2-handed jian style attributed to the Koreans and later denied by said Koreans); and there are modern Miaodao (from the Miaodao 4 routes) and older Dandao (from the Dandao Faxuan) techniques. If you look at more practical and less artistic interpretations of each (most obvious with Miaodao - many schools seem to try to keep to its old practical origins), they do seem reasonably convergent with European style techniques. If you dig into the Chaoxian Shifa, one also quickly finds that certain 'European' techniques very much exist in that style too. Zuan Ji (literally meaning turning strike) basically is the Zwerhau, although in a different context. Likely convergent evolution, since the start point is different, but it wouldn't be too surprising if it was actually European influence there. The spinning parries they do remind me a bit of Dandao Faxuan though. I do not understand Dandao Faxuan enough to say with certainty.
@@DarkwarriorJAt least according to the group leader’s most recent linguistic research, he has speculated that Chaoxian Shifa may even date further back than the late Ming - possibly the Song-Goryeo period. If it does in fact come from the Goryeo dynasty, there is a possibility that the swordsmanship style is a relic of Tang dynasty’s cultural heritage - as Goryeo had strong Tang flavor/undertones in arts and culture (with minor differences), even during the Song. Joseon denying Chaoxian Shifa to be its own is tricky; there is no doubt that the swordsmanship style is staunchly under the Chinese martial arts system - but if it does in fact come from the Song-Goryeo period, it may have been an artifact from the Goryeo dynasty (which had strong Tang dynastic cultural flavor). On the other hand, the Korean Peninsula went through a massive cultural shift throughout the Mongolian occupation to the establishment of the Joseon dynasty - during which cultural vandalism and destruction were rampant. There is a huge disconnect between the cultures of post-Mongolian occupation~Joseon dynasty Korean peninsula , compared to those of the early-mid Goryeo dynasty and before.
It is not - it is named Miao for its shape like a seedling sprout, rather than the ethnic groups today termed Miao. Its origins are generally traced back to the Ming military reaction to the Wokou utilizing two-handed swords, in a time where native two-handed swordsmanship in China nearly went extinct thanks to the Mongols prior. See: General Qi Jiguang, and the sources related to him.
@@lolcatjunior this is not true. first of all if we are talking about the ming era sword it would just be called changdao or dandao. also the blade lengths are over 40 inches which is larger or the same size as most nodachi.
@@lolcatjunior so just to be clear, im going off the fact that we are talking about the sword that is "chinas answer to the nodachi" aka the dandao or changdao. miaodao is not an answer to anything its really just a later sword. it would be like saying the european cavalry saber is the answer to the scottish claymore or something. miaodao is not related to what we are talking about.
@@lolcatjunior They were even used here and there but in China, having a bigger crossgaurds also acts as a doubleblade for them. Since they do use their body movements with their flexibility. It's hard to put it into words but theirs surely a difference between all sorts of swordsmanship, though mainly western style and eastern style.
@@Barbarosich African tribes are more ancient than those on the chinese territory, that alone doesn't make for a good point. I was inclined to agree with you at first, but even Miao Dao's chinese wiki says you're wrong, and kendo9406's right. It's imported from Japan.
@@BernasLL no) The whole culture of Japan is a cosplay of Korea and China) The swords of the Ainu people, which were almost generated by the Japanese, were like katanas, in South Asia there are a lot of swords like katana)
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I’m still considering your MK-2.5 but I’d like to see how well it flexes when you thrust your opponent.
The miao dao is interesting... It's a (later) military response to the Japanese katana. While the katana itself is a refinement of the Chinese tang dao that passed to Japan earlier in history.
nice
Existing swords called tan dao(唐刀) do not exist in China, only in Japan.The official name of the sword that is considered a tan dao in Japan is Karayouno Tachi(唐様大刀), which means Tang dynasty-style ornamented Tachi and made in Japan.The Tang Dynasty sword that actually exists is a double-edged sword.There were also surveys in China and Korea, but the conclusion was that tan dao did not exist in the Tang dynasty.
Survey results in China.
A knife like the tan dao has not been excavated in China, and only similar ones can be seen in old paintings from the Sui and Tang dynasties, and there seems to be no clear historical record of this type of sword.
中国本土却没有出土过这种刀具，只在隋唐时期的古画上见过类似的，好像也没有确切史料记载过这种刀剑，如果有知道的请告诉我。
Tan dao has not been found in China, the Korean Peninsula, or Japan.
至于所谓的唐样大刀，则是日本改进后的唐朝横刀，但是正宗的唐朝横刀在中国、朝鲜半岛、日本都没有出土过实物。
Also, no clear historical materials have been found that the origin of katana is tan dao.
而且，我也没有找到明确的史料记载，说是日本刀是发源于唐样大刀。
Katana originates from the Japanese sword warabiteto (curved sword).
日本刀起源於日本本土的蕨手刀（彎形）
Survey results in Korea.
Some people argue that tan dao is the origin of katana, and such claims are often quoted in articles in Korean cultural magazines.
However, no scholars from various countries have officially claimed tan dao as the origin of katana.
It is speculated that it is probably one of many kinds of Chinese-originating distortion of history.
The tan dao relics that exist in Japan have no curves and are double-edged, while the katana is curved and single-edged.
당대도 기원설: 당대도가 일본도의 기원이라는 주장주장2을 펼치는 사람들도 있고, 종종 한국의 문화지 기사에도 그런 주장이 인용되는데, 정작 다른 여러 나라의 학자/학예사 중에서 정식으로 당대도를 일본도의 기원이라고 주장하는 사람은 없기 때문에, 아마도 여러 종류의 중국발 역사왜곡 중에 하나인 것으로 짐작된다. 일본에 남은 당대도의 유물은 곡선이 전혀 없는 데다가 일본에서 보관 중인 당대도 유물은 끝 부분이 펄스엣지, 즉 양날이지만, 일본도는 도신 자체가 곡선인 외날 도검이다. 다만 이는 일반적인 당대도의 모습이 아닌 장식성이 강한 일종의 레어한 모습으로 당대 중국 본토 대부분의 당대도 유물은 일반적인 도 형태다. 현재 견당사가 가져온 당대도(唐大刀)의 레플리카가 일본에 존재한다. 일본도의 전신인 타치의 외장 금구와 손잡이의 어피등 장식성에서 상당한 영향 끼친 것으로 보인다.
It's actually a adaptation of nodachi not katana, it's not a response to a particular sword either it was not use against pirates but rather raiders at the northern border, that's not where the katana comes and tang dao is a modern name first came about thanks to inaccurate sword replicas trying to hop on the katana bandwagon.
The roots are wantō first created by people that used to live in northern Japan.
"February 26, 2020
Wantō (湾刀): Early Curved Japanese Swords"
@@eagle162 You are right that the miao dao, aka dan dao or chang dao, is probably an adaptation of odachi, with some alterations. However, I must add some nuance to your correction regarding Tang dao and the roots of the katana/tachi.
First, regarding Tang dao, I think you are getting too caught up on the terminology. Tang dao might be a modern term, but it should be understood as referring to swords that were in use in Tang dynasty China. While some replicas have historically questionable fittings, the form and proportions of the blades are generally correct. Tang dao range from short daggers, to ring-pommel swords, non-ring-pommel swords, to very long dedicated two-handed swords. They might differ in size and fittings, but some things are universal to Tang dao. They always have straight, relatively narrow blades, thick spines, and a small amount of distal and profile taper. Most surviving examples have ridged cross-sections, like a kiriha-zukuri or shinogi-zukuri, though occasionally, they have flat wedge cross-sections. They also show distinct, hardened edges that form a straight pattern, a suguha hamon, in Japanese terms. Regardless of internal variation, we are talking about Chinese swords from roughly the 6th to 10th centuries, or slightly beyond. They have been best preserved in places like the Shousouin in Nara, though less well preserved blades and fittings sets have been found in China as well. They are not just a modern invention, though admittedly, some manufacturers have capitalized on their historic relationship to Japanese swords as a marketing tactic.
Now on to your claims about wantou and the roots of the katana. I have read that Gunsen article before, and I looked at it again. While it is almost certainly the case that the early tachi draws design features from the waribitetou of the native Emishi people, it would be ridiculous to dismiss continental chokutou as having contributed to the development of tachi. I say this for several reasons. The late Heian period tachi features a ridged cross-section, a tang construction secured by pins, and a distinct ridge that marks the transition to the point (a yokote). These are all features of continental swords of the time. The "yokote" on Chinese swords of the time comes about quite naturally because of the ridged cross-section blade and the very angular tip. These tips are somewhere around 45 degrees. Thus, these blades have a very "geometric" look to them. We might also look at the fittings found on tachi. They are slung from two suspension loops found on the scabbard, which is again a feature of continental swords, most likely originating in Sassanian Persia. In contrast to what I just described, waribitetou have flat wedge cross-sections, no yokote, and a one piece construction that combines hilt and blade. They are also broader and shorter swords. Looking at diagrams of these swords, one can see that the kenukigatatachi is already quite a departure from earlier waribitetou and exhibits some features of continental swords. I will also add that one of the waribitetou examples that Gunsen provides has a very similar blade form to one of the Chinese swords in the Shousouin, namely the example of a type 3 with a double-edged tip.
To me, this all points to the most probable conclusion regarding the development of the tachi and katana. That is, they are not the descendant of any singular sword type, but the result of combining features from different sword cultures, both native Emishi, and continental Chinese and Korean. The curvature of Japanese swords is rather unique in that the hilt curves in the same direction as the blade. Seeing as how Chinese swords were all straight, this is clearly a feature taken from the waribitetou. We also find small disc guards on waribitetou, connecting it to the disc guards of tachi. In contrast, Chinese swords of the time had small cross-guards. But then, the tachi has a long, fairly narrow profile with a ridged cross-section and a yokote, which resembles the continental swords. Indeed, considering that both continental-style swords and Emishi swords saw widespread use in Japan during this period, it would be rather astounding if somehow only one of them influenced the design of later swords. Even in China, simply having contact with Turkic and Persian peoples affected their sword design, namely in the shape of the guards, pommel caps, and suspension system. They may have also introduced the inclusion of back edges on otherwise single-edged swords, a feature that ultimately made its way to Japan.
I know this has been very lengthy, but I hope that when you correct people, as I've sometimes seen you do in the comments of Matt Easton's videos, you'll be a little more nuanced, so as to avoid creating new misconceptions.
@@copyleftclaim7112I understand that however my problem with the name tang dao and why come to dislike it, is the large amount of modern replicas distorting information, type in the name your more likely to see inaccurate ones then actually historical ones particularly in English, often taking cues from Japanese swords crafts that did not exist during tang dynasty causing inaccurate claims. There's a large discussion regarding swords during that time.
This video I think talks about that a bit.
科普：一本正经说唐刀！-哔哩哔哩
Shousouin is not as reliable of a time capsule like people think majority of the artifacts were actually made in Japan which many were stolen or altered throughout the history, it's debatable on how many swords were actually imported, this mention that.
剑锋刀背，外形酷似日本正仓院“唐大刀”，扬州博物馆真把出土唐刀当成宋剑？
Shinogi-zukuri is a later development.
Gunsen article about chokuto mention their role regarding development, however that is regarding the tachi, I was more focus on katana early uchigatana were actually shorter than chokuto and blades resemble the ones in the image where it says "a series well-preserved emishito"
Miao dao sounds like a weapon a cat would use.
Miao means sprout
Dao means saber
This describes the shape of the sword is long like a sprout.
Someone better draw that...
No it dose Nyat
@@ze_glitchy_gamer7629 chinese catboy with a long saber.
"It looks like it handles like a longsword or a kriegmesser, those are close enough" -- what I'll have to keep telling myself so I'm not overcome with the need to add another sword to the collection.
But did you add both the longsword and the kriegsmesser to your collection?
If so, I salute your wallet. It will be a matter of time :D
@@DarkwarriorJ lol, don't salute my wallet, salute my questionable decisions about to do with what little is *in* the wallet
@@ahuman6277 I salute both your decisions and your wallet. Together, you keep sword makers afloat...
And yourself less afloat :D (Too bad there's no dungeoneering or adventuring to earn back the money with steel in hand!)
The impetus for the development of MIAO DAO.
Chinese Ming Dynasty General Qi Jiguang (1528-1588) "This is what I learned for the first time when the Japanese attacked Ming. They moved like a dance, and the forward rushing force seemed to flash light, and our Ming soldiers were just distracted. Japanese are very active and move about 3m at a time. Since the length of katana is 1.6m, it will be attacked even at a distance of 4.8m. It is difficult to approach with my soldier's sword, it is too late with a spear, and if we encounter them, everyone will be cut off and killed. This is because their weapons are sharp and they are free to use powerful and heavy swords that can be swung with both hands. "
"For Japanese, a fowling gun from a distance is effective. But the Japanese have absolutely no fear and charge at point blank range where they can attack or stab. It also takes time while our gunners load their bullets, That's why Our soldiers often allow them to approach. We cannot stop their momentum. Japanese swordsmanship is light and long, Our gunners move too slowly after allowing them to approach. Our swords are not effective weapons for throwing away guns and responding immediately. Therefore, we should equip ourselves with Japanese-style long swords."
明 戚继光 纪效新书 此自倭犯中國始有之。彼以此跳舞、光閃而前、我兵已奪氣矣。倭善躍、一迸足則丈餘、刀長五尺、則丈五尺矣。我兵短器難接、長器不捷、遭之者身多兩斷、縁器利而雙手使、用力重故也。 今如獨用則無衛、惟鳥銃手賊遠發銃、賊至近身再無他器可以攻刺、如兼殺器則銃重藥子又多、勢所不能、惟此刀輕而且長、以備臨身棄銃用此。況有殺手當鋒、故用長刀備之耳。
Chinese Ming Dynasty Martial Artist Cheng Zongyou (1561-1636) "We call that Japanese weapon dandao. A single sword is used with both hands. This is a technique unique to Japanese people. The technique is well trained, precise and solid. Japanese swords are easy to handle, and each one makes sense, including the handle and scabbard.
No other sword can match the Japanese sword. A well-polished Japanese sword reflects the light of the sun and hits our eyes. The light makes our hearts cold. In Japanese swordsmanship, the change from side to side is strange and mysterious, and it is not predictable to ordinary people. Therefore, even if we use polearms such as spears, we are always defeated by Japanese swords. "
明 程冲斗 单刀法选 单刀说 器名单刀，以双手用刀也，其技擅自倭奴，锻炼精坚，制度轻利，靶鞘等物，各各如法，非他方之刀可并，且善磨整，光耀射目，令人心寒。其用法 左右跳跃，奇诈诡秘，人莫能测，故长技每每常败于刀。
Portuguese Jesuit Missionary Luis Frois (1532 - 1597)"Western swords have a one-handed handle and are the size of a fist, but Japanese swords are two-handed."
El puño de nuestras armas es justo el que cabe en una mano; el suyo pasa de un palmo y a veces de tres. (Japón）Los japoneses cogían la katana con las dos manos.
"Japanese are very active and move about 3m at a time. Since the length of katana is 1.6m, it will be attacked even at a distance of 4.8m."
How realistic is this? For anyone who practices Kendo, can you really lunge and strike someone at a distance of 4.8m?
@@mindroverjpc Not Kendo here, but trying it out, a controlled passing step achieves a distance of about 4-5 paces (4 natural footsteps). It's basically half to 75% that stated distance, but it is sufficient to bypass and remain safety behind the spear tip of a long spearman, which would screw over Chinese spearmen who are out of formation pretty well. Combine with a particularly long sword, interesting things can be achieved.
@@mindroverjpc
I think that the Japanese warriors were much aggressive, unpredictable with their forms, quick onto their feet is what makes them topple many other soldiers.
One thing to note here that all those ancient materials shows that the Japanese sword famous at that time is the much much longer (1.6m) than the katanas popular today. Which is why Miao Dao today is a very different weapon than katanas including Taichi. Also the "Miao Dao" in this video is not really Miao Dao as it is not long enough
Those sword clashes were so loud I could *feel* them; feel the *weight* behind each strike! And *damn* was it dramatic!
This is fascinating, why is this not an olympic sport by now?
I think it is better to make the two swordsman swich their weapons for this video
Hi Weaponism, are the techniques they are using from chinese or european swordsmanship.
The smaller guy knows what he is doing.
Where did you get the steel sparring miao dao and long jian?
I would like to get that info too
I don't know where they got these specific models from, but you can get both the long two handed jian and miao dao from LK Chen (they allow you to buy the swords in "not sharp" format). LK Chen sells ancient Han Dynasty/Chu kingdom two handed jians (under the models: Roaring Dragon and Striking Eagle) and sells the Miao Dao (under the model Silver Swallow Miao Dao).
@@rimroth5224 I don't know where they got these specific models from, but you can get both the long two handed jian and miao dao from LK Chen (they allow you to buy the swords in "not sharp" format). LK Chen sells ancient Han Dynasty/Chu kingdom two handed jians (under the models: Roaring Dragon and Striking Eagle) and sells the Miao Dao (under the model Silver Swallow Miao Dao).
1:34 - worth waiting!
1:58 - this one too
This would be lore-accurate lightsaber combat for me: cautious, thight, linear bladework, elegant strikes. Fencer with straight sword look sharp!
2 weapon look the same??? I can't recognise them....
Not bad , still need a lot more foot work practice and attention to your own center line as well as your opponents.
Other than that you both have a fair idea of direction and striking with forward movement
Nice background and open shot
I would love to get ahold of one of those sparring miao dao weapons.
Very impressive. You ladies and gentlemen are kinda like me into all kinds of weapons.👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Where can I buy that double handed jian?
These longswords are a good example of why crossguards became so large on Western style longswords; a lot of those hand hits would be easily deflected by a western sword.
Not necessarily. While Western long swords do have cross guards, the guards don’t offer much protection, as they are still a small piece of metal that covers a small area of your hand. If you are talking about something like a basket hilt, it makes more sense.
@@FeelAlrightInc True, you can snipe easily around a crossguard. They are more to prevent opponent's blade from sliding off yours when you are performing something from a bind, and get bigger at the same time as blades get more pointy and cut-and-trust fencing oriented (as opposed to earlier "viking" swords which were more cutting-oriented).
Although, after watching the video I can say that a significant portion of hits to the arm happened while one person was trying to cover the line of attack, while the opponent's blade was sliding down into his arm. With a crossguard it could have been prevented.
The cross does not really protect your hands that much, as the amount of hand snipes in HEMA tournaments are insanely huge. What the cross guard actually do that it allows you to control and suppress the opponent sword in ways ( like the winding in Liechtenauer's tradition for example) that Asian swords with disc guard could not.
They don't add much passive protection, but a solid cross guard adds lots of protection if you are aware of hand sniping and use the guard appropriately.
Title should be miao dao vs Chu Jian
This was an amazing sparring session. I practice KdF (HEMA) and find amazing the convergence of techniques.
Epic fight!
Please review the plastic armor.
I don't know where the video creators got these specific models from, but you can get both the long two handed jian and miao dao from LK Chen (they allow you to buy the swords in "not sharp" format). LK Chen sells ancient Han Dynasty/Chu kingdom two handed jians (under the models: Roaring Dragon and Striking Eagle) and sells the Miao Dao (under the model Silver Swallow Miao Dao).
I recommend trying to get a bigger disc guard, here's an example type this in and then look up the images.
"This uchigatana’s over a meter long! Daily life katana were regulated under a certain length after Sengoku Jidai ended, but battlefield swords could still be quite large."
I think the hand of the long sabre user getting hit may actually have to do with the bulky lobster gloves, rather than the sword design or the techniques. The only thing that comes close to those gauntlets anything Japanese related is the practice mittens used in itto ryu schools, that are specifically designed to be struck in katas.
@@adenyang4398 you may have a point. Good observation still tho I would be interested to see a East Asian sword with a bigger disc guard actually use in sparring since it's usually the small variety and people are not often the way of the bigger ones, I'm curious to see and hear people's opinion on how different it feels.
@@adenyang4398by the way I remember you mentioning a while back that katanas during the sengoku era could have a pommel with a spike on it, could you possibly share some more info on that and some images. Did pommels like that also existed in China and Korean?
Also in Japanese martial arts the disc guard is also use like a weapon similar to a cross guard, however I'm unaware of any reference using the guard like that in Korea or chinese martial arts do you perhaps know any?
@@eagle162Here is one under Gunsen’s reply in the last picture: “Why do people think Japanese sword designs are limited (often being compared to the entirety of Europe or so)?” - Quora
There were differently designed spike kashira examples, but I can’t seem to find them now.
Koryu styles related to Shinto traditions (kashima and katori shrines) supposedly can have their regular swordsmanship directly translatable to armored fighting, since a katana’s quality can make them very nimble up close depending on the techniques used. They seem to heavily parallel Chinese dao, which use a lot of techniques involving support & leverage using the spine.
Other than the disc guard, there’s also the S-shaped guard commonly found among Chinese dao (dadao and taiji sabre). This guard can use striking and trapping techniques, but also has the benefit of not being able to be easily grabbed or wrenched unlike a standard European crossguard. (nor interfere with tight circling arm movements of katana or dao)
@@adenyang4398thank you very much for that
valuable information
Hopefully there will be a sparring miao dao up for sale ^_^
Where can I get one ?
healing
Now I know how important the hand guards are X)
This reminds me of Shadow Fight 3😆
Any chance someone has information on how/where to purchase these sparring weapons?
hey guys great video, thanks.
a pity that the miao dao user isn't doing any miao dao moves tho,
he totally using it like a two handed sword,
would toally love to see more
RAD!
Хороший поединок! Для любителей подобных схваток
ua-cam.com/video/HwHNzL9-zpg/v-deo.html
miao dao vs. Feder would be very cool to see.
ua-cam.com/video/bhw5-PwVeH8/v-deo.html
Why'd you guys say "oriental" instead of "Chinese" saber? Cause that's what it is.
Thank you for the video 👍🏻
* Zhanhu PTSD *
🙂
awesome
Great!
Nice!
Could someone more familiar with Chinese MA tell me what style this is? So many of the movements _seem_ European to me, but I'm wondering if it's more likely convergent evolution.
Visually this group does look like they're doing European-like techniques in this duel atm, but they have dug into the Chaoxian Shifa (late Ming dynasty 2-handed jian style attributed to the Koreans and later denied by said Koreans); and there are modern Miaodao (from the Miaodao 4 routes) and older Dandao (from the Dandao Faxuan) techniques. If you look at more practical and less artistic interpretations of each (most obvious with Miaodao - many schools seem to try to keep to its old practical origins), they do seem reasonably convergent with European style techniques.
If you dig into the Chaoxian Shifa, one also quickly finds that certain 'European' techniques very much exist in that style too. Zuan Ji (literally meaning turning strike) basically is the Zwerhau, although in a different context. Likely convergent evolution, since the start point is different, but it wouldn't be too surprising if it was actually European influence there.
The spinning parries they do remind me a bit of Dandao Faxuan though. I do not understand Dandao Faxuan enough to say with certainty.
This group was practicing western HEMA in previous videos, so that's probably what these fighters are familiar with.
The miao dao/chang dao/long sabre guy practices 辛酉刀法, 單刀法選 and also several techniques from Joseon that's a varient of those.
I really appreciate the information, everyone! I'm trying to learn something from all styles of MA no matter what part of the world.
@@DarkwarriorJAt least according to the group leader’s most recent linguistic research, he has speculated that Chaoxian Shifa may even date further back than the late Ming - possibly the Song-Goryeo period.
If it does in fact come from the Goryeo dynasty, there is a possibility that the swordsmanship style is a relic of Tang dynasty’s cultural heritage - as Goryeo had strong Tang flavor/undertones in arts and culture (with minor differences), even during the Song.
Joseon denying Chaoxian Shifa to be its own is tricky; there is no doubt that the swordsmanship style is staunchly under the Chinese martial arts system - but if it does in fact come from the Song-Goryeo period, it may have been an artifact from the Goryeo dynasty (which had strong Tang dynastic cultural flavor). On the other hand, the Korean Peninsula went through a massive cultural shift throughout the Mongolian occupation to the establishment of the Joseon dynasty - during which cultural vandalism and destruction were rampant. There is a huge disconnect between the cultures of post-Mongolian occupation~Joseon dynasty Korean peninsula , compared to those of the early-mid Goryeo dynasty and before.
Is it from the Miao Nation of ancient China?
It is not - it is named Miao for its shape like a seedling sprout, rather than the ethnic groups today termed Miao. Its origins are generally traced back to the Ming military reaction to the Wokou utilizing two-handed swords, in a time where native two-handed swordsmanship in China nearly went extinct thanks to the Mongols prior. See: General Qi Jiguang, and the sources related to him.
@@DarkwarriorJ I asked, and you delivered! Thank you so much!
China’s answer to the Katana
Nodachi*
@@eagle162Nodachi is bigger than miao dao
@@lolcatjunior this is not true. first of all if we are talking about the ming era sword it would just be called changdao or dandao. also the blade lengths are over 40 inches which is larger or the same size as most nodachi.
@@efafe4972 miao dao is longsword sized. A nodachi is the same length of a European great sword.
@@lolcatjunior so just to be clear, im going off the fact that we are talking about the sword that is "chinas answer to the nodachi" aka the dandao or changdao. miaodao is not an answer to anything its really just a later sword. it would be like saying the european cavalry saber is the answer to the scottish claymore or something. miaodao is not related to what we are talking about.
Which is which?
The one with the disc guard ?
@@jaketheasianguy3307 single edged disk guard is a dao double-edged is a jian.
Why does one a two handed weapon without crossguard? D:
Bigger cross guards would've helped a lot. What strange swords.
It's literally just a big 2 handed saber with disc guard. What the other guy use is not a miao dao
@@jaketheasianguy3307 The other guy's sword is a bit like a two-handed jian of the Song dynasty era, but only a bit.
Two handed jian is 1000 years older than European longswords.
@@lolcatjunior
They were even used here and there but in China, having a bigger crossgaurds also acts as a doubleblade for them. Since they do use their body movements with their flexibility.
It's hard to put it into words but theirs surely a difference between all sorts of swordsmanship, though mainly western style and eastern style.
Miao Dao is father of katana)
Wrong. Katana is Miao Dao's father.
@@Vergil06 no) China more ancient than Japan)
@@Barbarosich African tribes are more ancient than those on the chinese territory, that alone doesn't make for a good point.
I was inclined to agree with you at first, but even Miao Dao's chinese wiki says you're wrong, and kendo9406's right. It's imported from Japan.
@@BernasLL no) The whole culture of Japan is a cosplay of Korea and China) The swords of the Ainu people, which were almost generated by the Japanese, were like katanas, in South Asia there are a lot of swords like katana)
@@Barbarosich From what I'm seeing, _tang dao_ are the father of katana, and miao dao were a response to katana.
Tang dao -> katana -> miao dao