WAGO vs Junction box controversy (14)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 вер 2024
- This little job turned up some very weird findings when it came to installing some additional sockets for an extension. The RCD looked to have been bypassed after an earth fault was present on the socket circuit.
I'll be back there to trace and find the fault once a time has been arranged.
CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS: Ok so as we all know the general idea of fitting/installing Junction boxes in or under floors is considered at best bad practice! However, in certain circumstances it's perfectly fine. The two installed under this floor are in an accessible area where the customer is aware of. The reason I went MF Wago in the loft is because it might at some point not be as accessable due to loft furniture or insulation. There is also the possibility of no loft access at all within this bedroom should the customer choose not to have a loft hatch in the room.
By the way guys the new kewtech croc clips are on their way after weeks of waiting, so hopefully no more confusing testing colours?
AS USUAL GUYS THIS VIDEO IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT TO BE TAKEN AS ANY KIND OF TRAINING OR EDUCATIONAL PRESENTATION. AT ALL TIMES I AM IN FULL CONTROL OF THE INSTALLATION AND THERE IS NEVER ANY RISK TO PERSONS OR EQUIPMENT. ELECTRICITY SHOULD BE GIVEN THE FULL RESPECT IT DESERVES.
I'm a joiner. I just thought I'd let you know that today, I saw a spark using a sweeping brush and dustpan. The same guy also filled the bruising on the newly plastered ceiling after he'd holesawn out for the downlighters. I'm currently in hospital being treated for shock. All the best :)
Jesus! That is shocking!
It's a pre Christmas miracle!
Are you sure it was an electrician?
@@westinthewest I wondered that myself, mate. But throughout the day there were several tell-tale signs that he was definitely a spark; 1) He turned up at the job with all of his kit in an Aldi bag - 2) As soon as he met me and found out that I was a joiner, he fell to his knees and spent the morning calling me 'Your Highness'. When I asked him why, he told me that he was just paying due respect to the king of trades - 3) He told me that he too had always wanted to be a joiner, because he had a boyhood dream of owning more than one power tool - 4) He'd forgotten to bring his belt, so his trousers were held up by a makeshift one consisting of a loop of 2.5mm T&E - 5) He spent most of the day crammed into the metal cupboard where the defibrillator normally went - 6) He'd occasionally wander off into a wild rant about spreads filling his backboxes full of skim - 7) When he filled and made good the ceiling bruising I mentioned, he put the filler in using the back of a teaspoon which he'd borrowed from his Mum, and finally - 8) When the customer gave him a task list of 26 jobs labelled from part A to part Z - the only part he understood was Part P. I rest my case :) :)
All joiners just wanna play with there wood
Brave post and obviously you know the reasons why . Each to their own but for me a maintenance free wago box is much easier and compliant without any need for a subjective interpretation of the regs . Anyway, hope to see more from you in the future, a great insight to the life of a spark .
Enjoyed the video mate being 6.4 and 19st and an adult trainee I curl up into a very big ball and whimper when lofts are mentioned lol thanks for the close ups of what you have done it's all very helpful nicely explained thanks for sharing
No problem, I always hate consumer units under stairs!
Thanks again for the video. I like the "real life" sparky stuff......fault finding and lofts with feet of insulation!
Sometimes the real life get a little too real 😬
A bit of advice, upload your videos when the soaps are on, that way the wife might leave me alone to watch in peace and quiet.
Grow a pair, mgtow, checkout Donovan sharpe on UA-cam, no more happy wife.... Happy life talk,
Good video UK (and EU) wireing is a lot different than what I am used to 230V AC +10% to -6%. is nothing to play loosey goosey with so I would deffinately hire a licensed electrician for even the smallest hard wired appliance or socket. I was a bit surprised to see all the plaster waste left between the floor joists hell of a mess and should have been cleared prior to floor boards being laid down, very sloppy and poor workmanship. It's much easier to work without the decades (possibly centuries) of rubble and filth left behind by other tradesmen who aren't taking pride in the work they do. Good on you for fixing the dodgy splice in's you found in the floor and attic spaces. At least those are now safe.
I don't get too fussed about detritus under the floorboards, it comes with the territory. Arguably it's adding to the ceiling load but frankly if that's pushing the limit then it's not fit for purpose in the first place.
Haha! Screwfix coffee! I hate being behind some hairy-arsed builder at the counter who accepts their offer of a cup o' brown grit. It means instead of serving me so that I can get on with my day, the counter bod turns barista and starts boiling up the bloody kettle! When it comes to breaking into ring circuits with tight cables under the floor, I keep some Hager J803's on the van. Maintenance free, quick push-fit connectors, and if you're just fitting the odd spur they allow the original cable to be cut and spliced back together with up to two individual spurs coming from the junction. They cost a couple of quid more, but they're a decent option.
Nothing worse than having a brew made for you by someone who doesn't actually want to make you a brew or even be there. This black tar nearly broke my ring I can tell you!
I don't have the faith in spring clip connectors you guys have. Fair enough for low current stuff (say up to 5A) but I'd prefer screw terminals - or soldered. Or whack a few hundred amps through the connection to effect a spot weld.
@@millomweb You don't have faith in BS7671 or the organisations that allow Wago to stamp 20A or 32A on their products? Faith won't get your 3A screw terminals to handle that current.
Have a look at John Ward's video showing how much current is needed to melt even the knock-off Wago-lookalike spring connectors.
@@JBE hello
Top guys
Great video,s agree with most of comments, bit daft using them screw terminals. They are out of date & under the floor is inaccessible whatever anyone says, you wouldn’t lift the boards come on. I’ve come across many that are loose, expansion & contraction of a conductor. You should have installed the wago box under the floor & the screw terminals in the loft if you were going to use them. During an inspection you check at accessible joints, sockets etc;
All sparks have different opinions & we can all learn from each other.
Cheers👍🏼
patrick brannan this is why the industry is in a total mess, no two sparks are doing things the same. If it says maintenance free required just bloody use it!
Hello, I recently found your channel and am enjoying your videos. I am from the USA and the differences in electrical work, standards and tools are very interesting. Good job...
Hey Rob, cheers. Yes we do things a little different over the pond but it's still very similar.
Good video. Real examples of an electrician at work in real situations.
Not sure about the old style junction boxes under the floor. Definitely should of used Hagar 32A maintenance free boxes!!!!!
Although the tenant is aware of their location, if they move out then I'm sure that information wont be passed on to the new tenants.
No tenant here just a homeowner. They're aware of the connections in the floor and its accessible.
@@JBE 2024: Homeowner gets alzheimer's.
2026: Homeowner dies in fire.
westinthewest Dies in a fire caused by what? A bit of cable charring from a high-resistance connection inside a non-flammable JB?
@@maxmerton I've lifted up many a floor board to see piles of sawdust from holes drilled in joists here and there. Years of dust from other sources e.g. decomposed underlay work their way into the ceiling void. I see nests that rodents have made using newspaper and bits of cardboard. It's conditions like these that combine in unexpected ways with your non-flammable JB.
westinthewest Not here you haven’t. We saw under the floorboards.
From an EE it's a good insight. Going to get some basic fix up work done at a family members place. Attic lighting is bare switches (no back box) and 1970s era junction boxes (circular ones) along with a switch (boiler maybe? Or bathroom fan) tied by the cable to the wall using string, so it's just dangling off there. Absolute fire and shock hazard currently. Getting a bit of very rudimentary changes done is necessary. Didn't know wagoboxes (unless you slid it over the optional "attachment button") could be screwed to a joist, beam or anything else (I've seen the countersunk marks in them, but no documentation saying that it can just be screwed down, too obvious I assume) so I just 3d printed 6 of the attachment buttons for less than 20p. While using a 3d printer for electrical installation work in contact with wires/canles is a bad idea (especially with the low melt point of PLA, more exotic, high temp, self extinguishing plastics would be okay, but *much* harder to print) a printer for optional parts outside of the box is a lifesaver.
Enjoyed your presentation, your patience is tested so often I wonder when most of it will be completely drained.
Thank you. It's tested everyday to be honest.
Great video as always could u make one on how u became a spark i.e what course experience part p thank you
I never use screwed terminal jb's anymore, maintenance free jbs only under floors pain in the arse when the DIYers put laminate floor everywhere.
But why did you use mf on the lights and not the sockets
You wrote what I would have written.
Who uses old screw JBs anymore??
MF all the way. And I’m not even a spark.
I use them where they will be surface mounted in a cupboard or somewhere out of sight. But never under the floor. Like you said just not future proof and no cable restraint.
Graham DIY yeah you’re part of the problem
@@lewiswright5936 Why is he "part of the problem"? He's right. We could argue forever about whether under floorboards is considered "accessible" or not, but why bother? An MF JB is much better in this situation and personally I can't really see any arguement NOT to use one...
Many things claim they're going to be revolutionary... and change the way you work. The one that made good on that promise: the humble Wago connector. I love the things. I still sometimes use chocblocks for solid to flex transitions, because i'm a tight git and lever wagos are spendy
So the sockets in the new part of the bedroom ended up being two spurs off the old ring? Did you do any remedial work on the consumer unit to bring that wiring up to scratch?
First of your videos I’ve caught. Like your style. I’m 6’3” this country definitely is not kind to tall people lol.
Do the wago connections have to go into the junction box. I am replaced my landing light and when I remove the fitting there is not a lot of wire that wants to come down so getting into into the box is probably not going to happen. In my mind is was using the wago 222 and then push wires into space above ceiling and use a new length of 3 core to to join the wago to the fitting. ??
Cheers
Sorry James you said your testing the RCD ? But you had the test probe on the MCB that had no circuit .
Being from the US, all n any box has to be readily accessible, easy to get to. Those Wago connectors we don't ever use some companies allow it, but we don't use stab-loc on switches, or outlets. To small of contact point.
Marty, I've worked in the US and in the UK... wagos are far superior to the 'back stab' terminations on outlets stateside... the spring is FAR stronger. often you need pliers to get the copper wire to go in!
Then again, I'm a bit of a renegade here in the UK, because I use wire nuts (only the proper Ideal ones that are actually approved here now, despite people claiming otherwise). They provide a damned good connection.
I think the box having to be accessible is largely due to the different 'traditions' of wiring on either side of the big pond. Here, we do seperate lighting and power circuits, and a lighting circuit usually covers an entire floor. The junction box method presents just one pair of wires (excluding the earth/ground) at each point... switch or light. but involves a jb under the floor somewhere. Incredibly common thru to the 1960s, so often found even today.
US style combined power/lighting circuits are fare more amenable to 'no junction boxes unless accessible' (use a convenient outlet box if needed).
Great to hear from other countries though, and i had to get involved coz I have experienced both :)
Always interesting. Thanks !
So... under the floor where connection is not accessible you used regular junction box, but in a loft, where it's accessible via hatch, you used maintenance free set? Explain..
Von Reagan there is that but I’ve only been in the trade for 25 years and have yet to see a standard junction box causing a fault under the floor that’s done properly thanks.
He did explain.
Theres a bit more of an explanation in the description. Basically the JBs will be in an accessible area and the MF Wago won't.
This is indeed a controversial topic. I’ve had recently planned to use JBs until reading that they cannot be used unless accessible without tools, so I decided to use wago 221 series and a wago xl box so I could leave them under the boards. Interestingly as I was fitting the connections this week I noticed on the inside of the lid that the wago box is only rated MF up to 20 amp. Apparently they are not MF on the ring main up to 30 amp even though the connectors are?! If I had realised that lifting a carpet/laminate and floor boards all counted as accessible, I would have stuck with the JBs at a quid each from screwfix, anyway, I did everything I could to be MF even though I think my wago xl on the ring is technically not
Ah the old "Is this a ring or not" game. My favourite is pulling a socket off to find three cables.. which happens a lot in this house (1930s, god knows how many "rewires" over the years)!
Great video, what a house of horrors! Lash up central!
Hi. Thanks for putting up these videos . How do you find using the Vito pro pack as a sparky. I use to used a Vito pro pac techpac for boiler repairs and loved it. I only ask as I now work at network rail and training to be a spark and not to keen on their tool bag they give you. Because you could be miles down the track you need to carry extra bits like a hammer hacksaw etc stuff I used to keep in the van than in my tool bag. Thanks.
Jesus James, at 12:34 I thought you'd gone all Anne Frank on us and would now be broadcasting from the attic...🤣🤣🤣
Oh dear I hope not? We all know what happened to her 😬.
@@JBE Too soon...
Seems weird that - a maintenance free Wago box in the loft which is accessible, then a brown junction box under floor which isnt. Should be the other way around surely or use two wago boxes, as the new enclosures for wago are non-maintenenace whereas the brown ones are now classed as needing to be checked. The one in the loft never needs be checked.
Most excellent job sir.well done.keep up the great videos.
Honestly didn't think anyone still uses the round plastic JBs, they seem obsolete in the age of Wiska and Wago boxes. I stopped using them about 8 years ago.
I was replacing old 12v lighting transformers with LED drivers recently, and when I pulled one of the JB's out of the ceiling the lid of it had practically disintegrated. It had a massive hole in it, presumably from being subject to heat from the halogen bulb for years. I replaced it with a Wago lightbox and it was SO much easier than trying to screw terminals above my head.
Wish we could use those junctions over here in the states.
I think Wagos are perfectly legal in the US as long as they remain accessible, it's just that no one seems to trust them because of the bad rep 1970s back-stabbed sockets gave push-in connectors in the US. Europe picked up push-in connectors a little later and never had much trouble with them as long as they're used properly.
All those Wagos definitely have UL marks on them! I don't think Wago would bother getting approval if for some odd reason the product couldn't be used in the US!
@@Ragnar8504 I use wagos sometimes here especially the 8 hole ones. But the junction box doesn't meet the strict US codes for junctions.
@@zackiemay Ah, get that! I haven't seen those Wago boxes outside the UK yet.
Yeah, here in the state you can only use wagos in certain applications and not the junction boxes shown.
Good video personally I like the jb s you used
In an accessible area I don't mind using JBs. The connections made there are solid and in many cases better than socket connections as they won't ever be touched.
J Beck Electrical totally agree I still use them
It's always interesting to see the fluctuation in voltage. Considering the UK is meant to be 230v standard, it seems to go anywhere from around 226 to 245 volts. I looked at the logs on my UPS not long ago, and eveyday at around 5AM the voltage would go right up to 243 volts, only to drop down well below 240 at around 6AM onwards.
230V according to EU "standards" with an allowable tolerance of +10% or -5%. Hence why nothing really changed for us when they made the standards. It's regularly up around 247V here yeah.
UK Power grid seems to operate towards the higher end of 240v
my UPS used to report 251v but at +1hz around 2am so might of been an issue with the UPS(especially due to frequency change) , but when it did happen it was always precisely at the same time every night also one of my computer psu connected to this ups was not happy about it as well (buzzing)
I was under the impression that a spur run from another spur wasn't legal. Is that right?
I have read many of the posts below...regarding accessibity of JB's etc.. the only issue I have is when the home owner decides to fit a laminate/tiled floor the standard JB has become inaccessible without destroying the floor itself. Although you cannot be held reponsible for future events....do you think in would be a wiser move to consider such future events, especially considering the small aditional cost difference in fitting something more future proof with regards to accessability or the lack of it?
Welcome to central Europe, where lifting floor boards for accessing wiring is flat out impossible 99% of the time. You typically have a false floor between the joist filled with sand, grit, broken work boots, torn overalls, lunch leftovers and whatnot to the top of the joists or even a whole extra layer of flooring with the aforementioned mix on top of the joists, mainly for sound deadening by adding mass. So fishing wires from above is already out, you'd have to trench the entire route. On top of that, floors are quite commonly tongue & groove or even herringbone, so unless you were a skilled joiner you'd probably destroy the floor trying to lift boards. CH fitters occasionally give it a try and the results are disastrous. I'll have to fix one of those attempts in the near future.
The most common answer to that issue is going horizontally from socket to socket and feed from above. Even easier in places where mixing lights and sockets is the norm. Trouble is, horizontal chases tend to cause trouble with structural engineers if they ever happen to stumble across them. New builds and extensive renovations do usually have the socket wiring (and the feeds from the fuse board to each lighting circuit) under the floor and if you ever need to access that again... tough luck. It's buried underneath the screed.
Lol, watched this and expected 100 comments on here as to why JB in the floor and wago in the loft.. wasn't far wrong 😂
Also one of my most liked videos 🤣
JB's under the floor are fine. It's accessible till someone fits laminate flooring. Which is not the installer's issue
@@TheChipmunk2008 just use wagos for both scenarios and problem solved.
TheChipmunk2008 so we’re expected to lift all the floorboards to retighten all terminals are we? Idiot
@@Dontmindme__ there's no need to sign off your comments with your nickname
I thought you'd make the joints for the ring circuit underneath the floorboard in a MF junction box.
Me too lol... whats up with a wago box some 221's and a cable tie?
Not in this case!
@@JBE But screw terminals are not permitted unless accessible for an EICR. I don't see why you didn't use the Wagos.
Update: I've just read the explanation in the description (doh!) but still don't understand what the advantage is of those legacy style round junction boxes. They belong in the skip.
Accessibility is a complicated issue, but the scenario I use is that of the EICR. Should I be expected to lift those floorboards every ten years to inspect the screw terminals? If the owner decides to sell the house or develops memory problems, how will I know that there's a junction there and it isn't maintenance free?
Hager's Junction Box Guide to the 17th Edition states:
Unless provision is made for access, where boarding, carpet or other
similar covering is laid over a junction box with screw terminals, it
may not be considered accessible.
Alway rip them jb's out when I come across them. Call me not old fashioned but they should be resigned to the history books like re-wirable fuses.
Personally I don't get the hate for JBs, I don't think WAGOs are inherently better as an electrical connection. If I have a need for a junction and it's inspectable (and particularly if it's visible like in a cupboard) I'll use a JB; I think they look better, are smaller and neater than those thumping great grey things that take up far more room than they need to and look ugly as sin.
Having said that I would consider under a floor without a specific opening for inspection as unaccusable and used an MF option.
hi mate just curious hows your experience using wagos in NON maintenance free junction boxes and in back boxes. obviously with something new you always worry they may come un clipped. I think its because we are so used to screw connectors
Hi Sophie, I do have experiences of having to connect Wagos in non maintenance free enclosures, albeit in consumer units and surface back boxes with blank plates. It's not the done thing but it happens. As long as there's no danger to life or danger the cables can become disconnected then I'm sure with a label it's ok. Did you watch my "Junction box ramble" video?
What's your thoughts on still connecting older style JBs (accessable ) as well as wagos ???
I'd have no problem using Junction boxes as long as they're installed for what they're designed for.
what wagos do i use for 2.5mm
221s, they do up to 4mm.
Not telling you how to suck eggs JBE not sure how that fiber glass insulation will be re installed but dependent on how cable is clipped loft insulation can reduce current carrying capacity up to about 50%. on that short tiny run insignificant i know. I remember an apprentice telling me they made some calcs with a tutor and the ridiculous figure came out as 4mm for a lighting circuit absurd as the accessories would not take this anyway, On a new build i would not waste time clipping cables along joists , put them well out of the way on all round banding.( main runs around perimeter up about a metre from ins.) Would be interested in your views and yes that 4mm seemed extreme but have heard 2.5 used for lighting because of this. See also my comment on Billy Billy's post does it all become over the top
Can somebody please explain why people in the building trade always leave a load of crap under the floorboards?
Lazy and cheaper than getting a skip.
Because it's quickest/easiest. Trades are strongly incentivised towards whatever is quickest. DIYers tend to be way tidier because they have more time to tidy up the mess.
I thought standard screw terminal JBs weren't allowed under floors these days? Wouldn't the Wagobox with either 222s or 773s (like you used on the lighting) have been a better option and compliant with the MF requirement? I know yiu discussed this at the end, but can't understand why you didn't put Wagos in the ring?
They are if they are accessible....
I've never quite understood what it is that makes the JBs 'not OK' whilst the wagobox is 'OK'? Is it because the connector is sprung, so much less risk of high resistance due to creep? On the other hand the JBs seem more resistant to heat.
WAGOs are way nicer from the electrician's point of view (quicker and easier) but I'm not sure what convinces the regs people that there is a significant change in risk.
Can you use 221 wagos in the mf joint boxes????
I can't see why not but they aren't listed on the data sheet, so I suppose strictly speaking you can't.
Strictly speaking you cant, even though they're better than the 222 larger ones. The reason being that because they're smaller they aren't held securely in the boxes like the 773 and 222's. The way round this is wago do a foldable adaptor that you insert in the boxes which then means they're held securely and you can use the 221's in the wago boxes and it's legitimately classed as maintenance free (at 32amps)
@@amblernectarThanks for you reply. But where do you use the 221 wago
So what are they for
Does anyone have any statistical and/or experimental evidence and data on the failure rates of junction boxes and Wago type connectors?
The problem here is that ignorance leads to assumptions which leads to belief, then assertions and arguments. That's not professional - neither is slagging off DIYers all the time ( *some* are very competent). Reading all these comments gives me little confidence in what should be a profession based on science not just opinions and bureaucratic edicts.
.
The most reliable source I'm aware of are the publications from the BSI, the European Standards Organisations and the IEEE. Most of us can't justify the cost of some of the specific publications but we do have BS7671 which draws its conclusions from information available to its contributors. The London Fire Brigade supplied statistics about screw terminals causing consumer unit fires. We could try to replicate the scenario scientifically to corroborate their evidence which might be anecdotal or subjective, but that could involve setting up a large room with a hundred consumer units cycling various typical loads over a period of ten years. That would end up in a large electricity bill. We'd need to erect each one in different ways to reflect the practices used by different electricians, kitchen fitters and DIYers.
At my level (bottom of the food chain), I just read Regulation 526.3 and follow the instructions.
People moaning about the jb's. I can understand your points but at the end of the day he's made the installation a lot safer than what it was.
'Safer than it was before' is not the same as 'complies with BS7671'.
A proffesional job is to comply with the regs. Safer, isnt good enough.
Maybe is done this to get us all talking could be a publicity stunt these guys are getting clever every day
isn't there a getout 'provides equivalent safety' thing? My blue book is just out of reach.
@@ajkhan743 To a certain degree OTT and a money spinner love to see scientific evidence of vibration causing danger on a screwed JB RATHER THAN compression wago joints. I know a few sparks have done vids showing the difference in resistance between a wago and screwed connection and difference was negligible.
Bloody state of the place! have all the trades swept their crap under the floor boards? Sorry mate but I can't allow any joints under the floor, I always trace it back to the last socket and replace the entire length of wire between, that way I know for sure any future problems are within the socket and not under several hundred quids worth of expensive flooring.
There was a time when putting standard joint boxes under the floor was acceptable, however nowadays we should only be using the maintenance free ones, because even under floor boards with carpet on top is deemed to be inaccessible, plus they don't have cord grips either.
I did switch to the Hager ones several years ago, and I use them where I need to make a joint, I can't remember the last time I used a standard one
If they are installed correctly ( conductor not taken the shortest rout to the nearest terminal) they don't need cord grips.
@@Raysnature I don't see what difference that would make, as you would be requiring the conductor terminals to do two jobs, one, hold the terminations and two, be used as a cord grip.
In this day and age its about time to retire the old round joint boxes, they have had their day. There are better alternatives now.
@@acelectricalsecurity That's the point, if they are installed correctly the strain is not on the terminal but an adjacent posts. The conductor should not go the shortest route to the terminal. In general I think you are right though. I just think WAGOs are huge and ugly and take up way too much room for something surface mounted. There needs to be something even better that looks attractive when visible.
Good video pal,I’m in Manchester let me know if you need a helping hand on a big job ,I’m trying to learn this trade any help knowledge experience on site will be greatly appreciated
4:54 Clearly lots of trouble with mice.
the crimped connections under the floor are not dodgy at all, junction boxes hidden with no further access is against the regs.
anyway, still a good job what you did down there
The crimps are clearly a good long-term connection and should be OK for inaccessible connections, however the exposed single-sheathed parts aren't, so the connection should be in a box, right? (and they spoiled it by putting a choc-block on the Earth).
That house is filthy under boards, mid ages hut ;-)
Looks like working on ring circuits can be a PITA.
If you have to destroy it/damage it to get to it then it's not accessible.
I think we need to remember that this debate has gone round and round for years, and that BS7671 has chosen not to define 'accessible' for a good reason. I've decided not to come up with my own simple definition until it becomes apparent that I have reached a state of super-intelligence. At the moment I keep stumbling on exceptions and contradictions, but UA-cam comments are a great way of engaging with the issue, especially when reaching for the big yellow book to throw regulation numbers around. Much more interesting than Brexit.
I wouldn’t use maintenance free JB’s. I’d rather be the one making the connection tight. Not just a slack bit of pressure from a spring or bending bit of metal.
@@robintodd3901 Pressure from a spring or bending bit of metal is what you rely on when you insert a plug into a 13A socket.
westinthewest True and the reason why I won’t use a plug top on an oven where it’s hidden behind. Least with a visible plug topped appliance there’s the chance to see heating effects. Also with a plug top it’s limited to 13A. With a ring main it could be a lot higher through the connection. Don’t get me wrong for the likes of a Ansel prism down light push connections are brilliant but then the current flowing through the connections are a lot lower. 10 lights 90w at most where ring main can be anything up to just over 7kw.
Can someone who's more knowledgeable than me tell me why every spark on here work with ring final circuits and not radials? Would it not be easier to convert what's there to a radial instead of trying to figure out a rats nest like that?
I think in this case there are a heck of a lot of sockets hanging off the ring, so it really could do with 2 X 2.5mm to feed them. Personally I think it is too many. A kitchen should be on its own circuit, seperate from the rest of the house. Maybe kitchen + utility is ok. Toaster, microwave, kettle, coffee maker, sandwidth toaster a busy morning could see a lot of shit on it. The regs allow unlimited sockets and a ring for the entire flat but thats fuking mental. I mean it will work, but if something trips the rcd, good job finding what it was that did it.
Generally when working on older circuits they all near enough in ring mains so easier when adding to the circuit to follow the current circuit design as may not have space in the current CU to add in a extra breaker to split it down to radials and can guarantee the customer would not want to fork out for a extra CU for a couple extra sockets!
But I do agree certainly do prefer radials and there safer too, lose one socket and suddenly on 32A breaker with 2.5mm T+E, not nice, but they are now looking at getting rid of ring mains due to it being more of a older tech design as it was cheaper during the war due to copper prices back then.
I learned the “European Standard” when I went to Iraq back in 2008 and I’m here to tell you there is NOTHING safe about the “European Standard” OR the materials used........ Wago or wirenut either or belong IN a “junction box”!!!!!!!! Europe would do well to learn and adopt the NEC from America ASAP
Original wiring was about as scary as it gets. This is why houses burn down. In the US code requires every connection be made in a properly located electrical box. Burying connections in the ceiling or floors is absolutely against the code. Repair is well done and exactly what is required.
That was some scary stuff but with older houses in the UK nothing unusual. Access UK style is still available (pull up the boards!). Having now moved from the UK to the States. Yep I do prefer surface mount of connector boxes as in the USA access is much better. Though I have come across the larger voltage drops in the bigger houses in US which can cause issues with equipment, and heat insulation risks.
@@mathman0101 We also have plenty of scary stuff and our codes work diligently to eliminate the crazy wiring electricians often see. Unfortunately the US allows 14 AWG wire and at 15 amps over some distance there is a noticeable voltage drop. I gave up using 14 years ago and only use 12 AWG (good for 20 amps) with 15 amp breakers. I also use more circuits than the code requires to keep overall load on each circuit to a minimum. Yes, it costs more money but I can sleep at night.
@Gary Jarvis sensible choices. Even with 12 AWG 20 amp circuits I have seen voltage drops of around 10-12 percent for the most downstream receptacles on a branch serving only five duplex receptacles with zero load on them in large houses. One solution would be as you suggest add additional circuits to parts of the house with long runs and reducing the number of receptacles they serve even further, or add a sub-panel but that may not appeal for cosmetic reasons near the outlets.
Those crimp connectors are not terrible. I've seen much worse dodginess than that. (Chocolate block everywhere).
@@xxwookey So have I but crimp connectors are only approved for stranded wire. Solid wire should not use any kind of crimp connections as they have a history of failing. In the US, burying connections in the wall, under a floor, or in a ceiling without access is always against the code.
Nice job again
Hi, how did you mount the wago box to the joist?
Wago boxes come with a slide-on clip on the underside. You screw the clip to the joist and then simply slide the wagobox onto the clip.
An inaccessible junction box under the floor? That would never be allowed in the USA.
It's not allowed here in the UK either. I think it was a deliberate ploy to attract comments.
Dont understand why all can learn from us in sweden and use pipes. Then you can just change the cables! Dont need to break the floor or walls! Plz USA, Great Britain etc etc. Plz learn!!!!
Jesper Rasmussen - We do sometimes use plastic conduit (oval or round pipes) inside walls, but it could be counter-productive below floors as it reduces heat loss and therefore the current carrying capacity of the electrical cable and would significantly increase the time & cost of an installation.
Maintenance free junction boxes like Wagos are allowed. It’s only the old screw terminal type that is frowned upon. Anyway in UK houses timber floorboards are accessible by lifting the carpet above & then the board, which should be marked up to show the position of the box.
@@Benzknees When you do an EICR (condition report in the UK) do you lift carpets and floorboards to inspect all non-MF junctions? I consider it annoying if a light switch or socket is stuck into the wall by paint.
The standard limitations which are stated on an EICR are, ‘Cables concealed within trunking and conduits, under floors, in roof spaces, and generally within the fabric of the building'.
8:00 Where's the strain relief on those round junction boxes (Regulation 522.8.5) ?
It must be a cheeky wind-up.
I suspect David Savery has something to do with this.
Isn't that the screw down covers' job ?
@@millomweb The cover is there to restrict access to live parts within. There are no clamps or cable grips to stop mechanical strain. The strain relief is usually provided by clipping the cables to something solid just outside the junction box. If one of those cables gets pulled or moves for some other reason, there will be a strain on the screw terminations.
Those JB’s under the floor.....are not reasonably accessible.
Anything is accessible with a tool.....even if behind tiles. Truth is, unless your joint is accessible like a socket front would be....the connections should be maintenance free.
On an EICR anything visible and accessible can be inspected. 99.9% of EICR’s have an operational limitation that limits the inspection of JB’s within the fabric of the building. This is reasonable. Who lifts floor boards during a normal EICR. Therefore.....joints in the floor are considered non accessible.
I'm glad we don't have that 1940's Ring CRAP in the USA! Your 240V I really like but wiring your outlets in a Ring is just crazy and dangerous in my opinion! Roy...
I agree with you Roy, Most electricians are installing radial circuits now and we do see rings as old.
@@JBE - Thanks for the reply! With radial, how many outlets are on one breaker and what size of breaker do you normally use per circuit? Here in the US we mostly use 12 gauge wire and 20 amp breakers for our 120 volt outlets and we might put several rooms on one circuit. Also, I like to use 14 gauge wire and 15 amp circuits for any ceiling light fixtures. Roy...
@@rpsmith Well obviously over here we're in millimetres for cables so a 2.5mm twin (line and neutral) and earth on a 20amp MCB. Or sometimes a 4.0mm twin and earth on a 32amp MCB. We would run up to 10 - 15 double socket outlets, which in a domestic/residential situation if more than adequate for upstairs sockets. Radials are the future but Britain for some reason won't give them up!
@@JBE
linuxfocus.org/~guido/javascript/awg.html
According to this table (if a read it correctly), your 2.5mm wire is close to our 14 gauge and your 4.0mm wire is about the same as our 12 gauge. Very interesting how our two countries went about wiring up our lives! I think I mostly prefer the way we went about it but I like your 240V system way better than our split phase 120V system. Thanks for the video and all your feedback! Roy in Houston Texas
10:13 were they connecting multiple cables by stuffing them into one end of a butt crimp?
Not a sparks but I enjoyed the vid. 👍🏾
OMG! how can that wiring even be legal? a crimped slice in the crawlspace, and no j-box! if that connection were to ever blow out, it could start a fire! we Never allow for that here in the US!
You normally find that sort of thing has been done by a previous homeowner wanting to tack on an extra socket, they don't have a clue and normally use connectors meant for stranded car wiring etc!
Hey look everyone! We found the guy installing junction boxes under floorboards!!!
Well he's not the only one, why is there anything wrong with that, especially if you use the maintenance free ones.
@@acelectricalsecurity he didn't use maintenance free ones. He used those round terminal thingy.
@@Souped-up-Saiyan yeah I know, I did mention that in the comments, but let's face it we have all used them at some point, up until the maintenance free versions
Hi guys, yeah the customer is aware of the JBs in the floor and they are going to be accessible. Unlike the MF in the loft that won't really be accessible without pulling the ceiling down or getting a child to squeeze through the loft hatch.
J Beck Electrical Sometimes you have to do what you have to do! Interpretation of the regs is what this is. Can you still get the floor boards up to the join? Yes. It’s not like it was getting tiled or laminated. Technically still accessible, have had to do the same before, always try to use MF where possible but it’s not always the case. Different story if this is getting buried under Lino, screed, fooor riles, etc. Etc. Plus the fact this has been installed by a professional and not a DIYer or builder that “Does electrics” I don’t see the issue, especially as customer is aware. Keep up the good content mate.
What pain in the ass, now that you have to move the 32A MCB to the RCD protected side, you have issue an EIC rather than a Minor Works cert.
I have to find the fault first Alvin! I've seen this kind of crap before when "sparks" come round and to the power on and get a hero badge, meanwhile they've made the installation a sh*t load more dangerous! I had to give the bad news to the customer that they had an earth fault and further testing would be required.
Please contact me unusall situation. I hope you can answer. I don't now its happened to you before mc electrical.
Screwfix coffee is the worst.....
at the end of the day as usual its just snobbery and image , nothing to do with safety , most comments are as usual saying about 7671 , if using standard thermo plastic JB's is illegal now then why are they still being sold , if it is safe to use standard JB's then you have no arguement in favour of wago etc , just snobbery , also what is the cost comparison ? all interesting isn't it , thanks for the vid
“I’ll have to renew this “... yeah right
Lots of mumbling going on here.
2:10 What a B amateur - poor effort re 'technical sheet' as it lacks circuit ID, tester's name and date.
Screw terminal jbs.... It's not the 80s....
"The reason I went MF Wago in the loft is because it might at some point not be as accessable due to loft furniture or insulation"
Not to worry. When they put floorboards in there, all that'll be ripped out so it's below floorboard level and connected together with wire nuts.
or just twiddled together and taped.. with a repair made from a random bit of flex when someone puts a screw through the cable..
Speak clearly
Comment clearer.
@@stupot_64 can't be clearer... Clumsy sound
@@nomnamecpp Not everybody has a wonderful setup, especially if they are recording while at work, and only have a small channel that doesn't make much money.
Cool HV Ignitor sparking vid by the way.
Lol it pronounced wago (way-go)
Actually no! It is German, and pronounced Var-go
I've watched all of this, and still can't see the point of this video (apart from making money obviously).🤔
Thanks for watching.
@@JBE
Lol.
I think I might video myself making off some Swa's tomorrow and start a UA-cam channel👍🤣
@@casperme6552 I've looked, but you don't seem to have uploaded it yet. When are we going to see the quality of your work?
@@stupot_64
Why would you want to?
Also, I wasn't commenting on the quality of J Becks work, just that it seemed a rather random and pointless video, seeing as nothing unusual happened and nothing was learnt from the video.
Now, if you'd like to try again, I'll be happy to answer any reasonable comments you have👍
@@casperme6552 "Why would you want to?". Because I enjoy watching videos of people in their work environment (VLOGs) and you said you'd be posting a video of you making off SWAs. I just couldn't find your video.
Was that any clearer for you?