The bizarre Kretz bicycle chain rifle with firearm and weaponry expert, Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Re-uploaded as we only gave you half a video the first time around
A true unicorn of a weapon this week as Jonathan attempts to make sense of one of the strangest weapons we've featured on this channel so far. Overcomplicated and fundamentally flawed, the Kretz rifle was almost immediately obsoleted by superior designs.
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Apologies for only giving you a half-video the first time around. We hope you enjoy the second half 😘
😳
When the gun's so freaky it breaks the upload
At least now I can listen to it for real.
Put some music in the background
@@pisacenere No
Finally a rifle as straightforward and uncomplicated as the Hungarian language itself.
Please don't make write this comment a third time. Bojler eladò
My hovercraft is full of eels.
*screams in "what the fk are you saying?!" Trying to translate*
I beg to differ. Our language is as logical and easy to learn as it could be. Megszentsègtelenìthetetlensègeskedèseitekèrt.
@@loneirregular1280 yes. The only language as keyboard mashing as Russian and Welsh. Who bloody thought a 100 letter name or word was necessary was insane
I think the funny thing about this is you seriously have to ask the question of whether to take it to the gunsmith, the bicycle shop or the watchmaker
Shit, you're have to call all three and give them three non-stop weeks of intense work just to clean the damned thing xD
Yes...
After seeing the Kretz ,you can understand why the military brass was suspicious of "self loading" rifles
Looks more like a "self-loathing" rifle. . . :D
By and large, the loathing for auto-loaders was based in two concepts:
1) New things break. When the cost of failure is *losing a war,* generals like 'old and proven.'
2) Auto-loaders consume ammunition at a fearsome rate, destroying budgets and require an expanded logistics train. General officers dislike having to beg for larger ammo budgets, *and* having buy additional transport to keep front line units supplied.
@@lairdcummings9092
Joke
Even in Vietnam, there were GIs that went with bolt action rifles to avoid stoppages. Well, technically you can still get stoppages, but they are way easier and quicker to fix.
Such a simplistic design that would be a swift and pleasurable task to clean in the field.
You left your sarcasm button pressed on, mate
🤣😂🤣😂👍
Said no soldier ever.........
imagine having to lubricate each chain link.
Yeah imagine the old basic training test; strip, clean and reassemble blindfolded to simulate darkness!
I'm honestly surprised that Ian from forgotten weapons hasn't done a Kretz yet. Good job Jonathan. 👍👍
He probably couldn't find a working one yet, and since the one shown here is kinda broken even travelling to the UK won't help.
If anyone has a operational (as in, you can manually cycle it and nothing is stuck) version, that would be a treat.
@@Kr0noZ Can you imagine a "Kretz at the range" video?
@@Tekdruid Not really. What would you do with it there? You'd only get shouted at to park your barely functional bicycle somewhere else. 🙂
@@exharkhun5605 when the sith lord thinks it's weird. It's weird
@@Kr0noZ Ian has been to the royal armouries before maybe he had to many rifles to do and didn’t get to this one
A fascinating example of an early mechanism for a self-loading rifle that clearly was innovative in its conception but horribly impractical realistically. What I will say is that it has an amazingly cool aesthetic, especially the side profile with the cut-out hand-grip under the chain rails, and would be right at home in a steampunk or even a primitive dieselpunk fictional setting!
The propmakers for the original Star Wars would have creamed their drawers if they'd known about this.
Steampunk..! Yes. That was my first impression.
Then I learned that one of Kretz's descendants carried on this "traditional" approach after relocating to the United States, whereupon, discovering that it was safe to do so, he changed his name back to the family's ancestral Jewish name; Goldberg --- as in Rube Goldberg.
People who think steampunk isn't based on Victorian engineering are hilarious. Steampunk is a construct practiced by boring people that are trying to be interesting.
I've seen some "steampunk" firearms on this channel, but this one takes every digestive in the box. Amazing, totally impractical piece of weirdness with about ten million ways to jam up an fail. Lovely stuff.
Bingo👍 "steam punk" perfect description
Man. I'm thinking about a loose copy of this rifle with brass chain guides and transparent plexiglass so you can watch it in action... If it worked.
"liable to derangement" has to be the most British phrase I've ever heard describing a firearm, or any mechanical device for that matter.
"Liable to derangement under the most favourable circumstances" why are they quoting my work performance reviews?
Well. I'll never again say that the AN-94 is over complicated without caveat.
IT HAS A PULLEY SYSTEM
@@Piromanofeliz yeah, but at least it doesn't have two in parallel...
@@Horizontalvertigo or a clockwork mechanism...
Wheel lock muzzleloaders have entered chat...
Imagine a world in which this became the gold standard of rifle pattern… It’s 1980, and schwinn is the worlds leading gun manufacturer 🤣
Bet the chain gun would be invented nice and early
i saw a video about a 16-round revolver that was sold in a French catalogue before WWI; apparently in those days bicycle companies were also known to make their own guns
Chauchat LMGs were also made by a bicycle factory, which you can kind of tell when you notice the gauge of steel tubing most of a Chauchat is made from. :)
Oh bravo to your sound person for including the rifle's safety release sound at the very end of the video. Well done.
Also, I guess if Rube Goldberg designed an automatic (*self-loading) rifle, he'd have done this.
Yeah, that sound person is *all right*, eh?
There aren't enough bowling balls, mouse traps, or boots on sticks for it to be a proper Rube Goldberg mechanism. :)
It now dawns on me that analysis of modern videogame weapons hasn't broken Jonathan, historic weapons do a perfectly fine job of breaking it!
Other examples of Kretz conversions actually exist in other countries. There is a Kretz-converted Gewehr 98 in a German collection. On top of that, Kretz also developed a hand-cranked, water-cooled conversion of the Mannlicher M95 which exists today at the military museum in Vienna.
Edmund Tatarek (who you mentioned in this video) was a frequent collaborator with Franz Kretz and he was responsible for the design of the Trommelmagazin used by the Germans in the Artillery Luger, Mondragon rifle, and MP 18,I submachine gun.
As mentioned, Edmund Tatarek had help from Franz Kretz on his rifle conversion, but also from Friedrich Blum. From what I understand, Blum bought Tatarek's Trommelmagazin patents, and it would be Blum's updated design that would be used with the FSK-15, LP08, and MP18.
Thank you - this is something I often wonder about and I should probably canvas my museum contacts before I film these, so I know who has what :) If you know which German collection, let me know.
@@MEGALODONGERS Yes, that is the case; the Trommelmagazin is credited to Tatarek/Benkoe/Blum who all each had a hand in its development. The TM 08 seems to have been Tatarek's most successful invention.
@@jonathanferguson1211 The Kretz rifle of patent DE325928 (never patented in the UK) is at the Deutsches Historisches Museum in Berlin. The Kretz crank-action Mannlicher (AT71702) is at the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna. There are also two other Kretz machine guns in Vienna; the HGA probably has most of his stuff.
The Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg almost certainly has some of Kretz's prototypes, although they're not very good at labelling stuff and they rarely permit outsider access to their archives.
Me and a small group of friends have been looking into early SLR prototypes over the past few years and we've managed to identify some that were previously thought lost or otherwise have just been forgotten. For example, St. Petersburg had a couple of unknown SLRs that we managed to identify as those of Frommer and Genovesi. (I believe you know Freddy already - he saw the Kretz at your collection a year or so ago!)
And the idea was to use these in a trench?
Mr. Kretz must have looked at a rifle and said, “What that really needs is a hundred more moving parts.”
"there is a massive design flaw with this system..."
WHAT? NO! I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! HOW COULD YOU SLANDER SUCH AN ELEGANT MASTERPIECE OF MINIMALIST DESIGN.
Is it just me or is the audio not quite right? Only got sound on the right
Yes
Same here
@@konstantinoskominos2747 thanks hahaha was afraid my headset finally bit the dust
Woah this is such a unique design, as flawed as it may be it's so interesting to see the false-starts of firearm design
This person was so stuck in their head about getting this thing to work that they never considered that there are a billion easier ways to make a rifle self-loading.
Just lime Mr Borschart!
Some of the most successful self load9ng mechanisms were possibly still under patent at the time. It's a common thing you will find in engineering history that some insane and complex systems are thought up to get around patents.
When you look at stuff like the peterson device and the attempted self-loading conversions on the Lee-Enfield rifles, the idea here is that instead of replacing you entire inventory of bolt-actions, you could just convert a whole bunch of them to self-loading at considerably less cost. None of those panned out, mostly because they're incredibly complicated and a better generation of self-loaders were just around the corner, but you can see where they came from.
@@dakunssd The majority of early self-loaders were marketed as conversion kits; Kretz and Pedersen were not unique in this regard. Most of Kretz's competitors (Sjogren, Cei-Rigotti, Brauning, Bang, Hellfeld, Revelli, Fedorov, to name a few) were offering much simpler and more efficient recoil-operated and gas-operated conversions. Kretz was just fixated with terrible, overcomplicated designs.
Co-designed by Cocaine.
this is the most steampunkgun i`ve ever seen and also one of the dumbest ideas I´ve ever seen, but at least the guy that made it was creative.
Wow, a rifle that makes a H&K G11 look relatively straightforward.
My eyes glazed over when you mentioned clock spring.
Good thing that a WW1-era battlefield is a very clean place where nothing little can get stuck in that bicycle chain!
This rifle feels like it's from an alternate steampunk universe or something, very fascinating.
"... absolutely begging for an animation." BRUNO!!
Plz plz... Pretty plz !!!
I’d love to see Mark getting this disassembled…. A Bruno animation, and then the quintessential cigar/firing sequence at the end! Blam! Whir, fizz, clack…. Blam!
@@u0010002 Even with Mark's expertise, the firing sequence is liable to be "Blam! Whir, fizz, clack….fiddle, fiddle fiddle, Blam."
Madness ! But that's exactly why i love historic firearm !
Kretz: Bicycle chain obsession.
Furrer : Toggle-locks galore.
Both: "MOOD-KINDRED!"
If they had adopted it, that cute bicycle chain rifle would have had to deal with the mud and dust of the trenches. What fun!
Chains have been doing that for decades on dirt bikes and fourwheelers lol
That little "twang" spring sound at the end of the video... *Chef's Kiss*
This was amazing in it's own flawed way. Thanks for also including the quote, greatly apreciated. On a side note, this thing looks amazing as a steampunk or retrofuturistic gun, like replace the metal discs at the back with a glowing energy thingy, bam! done.
Also kudos to the sound guy for adding the safety release at the end.
You have one of the best jobs in the world. To have access too and handle so many iconic weapons must be awsome 👍😀
I wouldn’t question Jonathan’s knowledge, the man’s an expert but nobody can make a 10 minuet video 23 minutes quite like him, @Royal Armouries
I walk away with firm admiration for the woodworking and confusion.
It sounds like something that Wile E. Coyote bought from the ACME catalog.
The unicorn comment is an understatement . I love this series for all the wonderful and rare weapons we get to view. Mr. Fergusson research and knowlegde is clear to the viewer. Good jog.
That might be the most steam punk thing I have ever seen. That clockwork mechanism is deliciously complicated. Expose more of the chain to ensure the weapon is dangerous to the user and it would be perfect
This is like watching Jonathan react to the guns in Call of Duty Vanguard.
finally! the resolution to what happens when the bolt is blown back!
What a delightful oddity - many thanks to the Royal Armouries for this piece.
After that you deserve to review ten of the most simple and best Rifles ever created you decide we will appreciate
I really appreciate the "tinggg" sound at the end of the outro, you should leave it there for all videos
Is an x-ray feasible? Would love to see a look inside the thing. I wonder what the considerations are for museums/academia and x-rays. Factors like cost, effects on the artifact, compositing light and heavy exposures together into one image, who conducts the x-ray, legally transporting a firearm in Britain to a x-ray operator etc
Idk,about in the UK,but here in the State they have portable X-ray machines ,so it so the weapon wouldn't have to leave the museum.
I 100%agree an x-ray of the internals would be awesome.
Don't know about the legal or museum technical aspects, but I've had luck getting veterinarians to x-ray mechanical and electrical stuff before. Vets typically have x-ray machines, and may sometimes have less of a queue of patients needing to use it.
They have done this before. I think it was the double Knock gun.
This is absolutely outstanding
My right ear loves this
it has all of the earmarks of a simple design and reliable implementation of a platypus. Shows great promise!
That design is really something. Absolutely cool specimen!
We both know a UA-cam brand in South Carolina that could do an animation. Sponsorship and hands across the sea. If Royal Armouries can't afford it I'll give a fiver!
Having watched the rest of the video. No: Bruno would not be able to do this as an animation; even if I added 2, or even 3, noughts to my fiver
That was really fascinating, thanks Jonathan and team.
Sort of reminds me of the SNABB conversions. «I can turn all your stocks of obsolete bolt rifles into self loaders». Never really worked good enough though. Another one this week that I didnt get. Will try harder next week!
Was thinking the same thing, had to watch the Forgotten Weapons video after this; who needs chains when you can have nested ratchet pistons.
This rifle is like a car accident. It's horrifying but I can't look away
Probably car and bicycle accident, given the chain. Kinda make me think that could be the origin of it: "I have this bolt rifle and half of a bike, lets see what can I do with it..."
@@jansvanda Motorcycle and car? If the motorcycle has an extended swingarm.
Can’t wait to see this cursed thing in the next Battlefield/Call of Duty
Fortunately they managed to take what they learned, and applied it when constructing the next version; the tricycle chain rifle.
There is a guy who has made a 45-70 3D printed rifle using this type of design. It's awesome his name is Evan Jones. Check out his channel.
Cool video. I genuinely appreciate the attention to detail (some might use the pejorative "pedantry") when it comes to things like terminology. That whole "automatic" business. It's the same with handguns. An "Automatic Colt Pistol" isn't a *machine* gun/pistol. But I understand where the confusion comes from. Very tricky for the press to deal with.
The design is insanely over engineered and totally impractical but it’s still very cool! Very cool video, thanks!
If you're blue, and you don't know where to go to
Why don't you go where the rifle sits?
Puttin' on the Kretz!
My right ear enjoyed this.
not sure what went wrong but the audio is almost purely right channel focused.
The idea of this rifle is survival, the enemy will not kill you because they will want you to explain this rifle. Being a gunsmith I would love to see it in person. I love your videos keep them coming.👍👍👊
"bizarre", "overcomplicated and fundamentally flawed" - yep, checks all those boxes! thanks for the video
As impractical and ridiculous as it is, that is a badass design! What a unit of a rifle
Interesting concept that was, sadly, not in the same ballpark as the other arms of its time. I love finding weapons like this on the internet, they represent a time in which people were experimenting with different ways of giving more firepower to the common soldier. Nice video, thanks for sharing!
Thank you for this; it's really not often that I see a rifle - prototype or otherwise - from this era examined that I've not just never seen done before, but never even heard of. There's certainly some mechanical genius here, but it's so needlessly convoluted. Also how the inventor ever thought this system would cope with any dirt or debris in the field is beyond me. There's so many points of failure and over-engineered insanity that it boggles the mind.
I would love to see a 3D animation. Thanks for offering a decent description of this extraordinary mechanism.
I actually thought my speakers were broken there for a minute 😅
Nice, just noticed Jonathan is rocking the Casio calculator watch, OG nerd bling! 👌👌👌
It’s the literal cycle of violence!
Current MOD procurement committees would adopt this for service "as is" on the basis that it might be made to work at some point in the future.
I don't want any capricious demon bike chains on my gun.
If I wanted to die, I would ride my bicycle into no mans land as one last hurrah then get mowed down when I inevitably have to fix the chain.
This is mental. I love it.
It doesn't seem that complicated to me, no more than a lot of successful designs. And it looks absolutely stunning.
So this is what an early concept of a "chain gun" looks like. Interesting.
What a kooky rifle. If it had some exposed gears it'd be the steampunkiest firearm I think I've ever seen.
The complexity and thought behind the engineering is really impressive, even if totally impractical and inoperable
It may well be absurdly impractical, but wow, the build quality is incredible, its stunning to look at.
The mouse trap rifle. I was half expecting to see a chamber for the little plastic diver to drop down and trigger the firing pin.
Definitely a , "puing!" sound for that spring.
The audio was all right
I love it! Seems straight forward enough.
This must have been the inspiration for the General Liu rifle in Battlefield 1. The alt fire switches the action to straight pull and you twist the end of the barrel just like this rifle. Was very confused what was happening until now. Just more reasons to love this channel!
I wish I were in the same room, when this was shown, and explained to the military brass as an option to adopt.
The weight of this must be crazy...
at the time of its invention, self-loading rifle wasn't a necessity for an infantryman. Infantry was still fighting in company formation, backed by machine guns and shrapnel bursting quick firing field guns. It was deemed adequate doctrine, until the infantry is forced to move independently in smaller groups carrying combined arms in which a self-loading rifle can bridge the gap between rapid firing but short ranged submachineguns and heavier/expensive squad machine guns/light machine guns.
every time I hear "I stopped out of fear of damaging it" all I can think of is "I'll take it apart, I have no such fear"
That Kretz finger joke. Good man.
The mechanism of the rifle is so mind-blowing that actually blew up the rest of the original video.
My ear seems to be broken.
Oh my goodness
That is amazing, it must be deceptively dense with all the internal chains and cogs.
Jonathan, you mention that the conversion work adds weight, and the report calls it out for being excessively heavy and badly balanced. Just how heavy is this wonderfully bizarre chain-driven rifle?
Wow! Thank you for making a video on this! I honestly love it somehow. I can't decide whether it's genius or just crazy. xD
It's insane. It's beautiful. I want one!
The wonderful Mr Ferguson!! Great to see you with more of the wonderful rifles in your tender care. Wish they would build you a private range to test fire some of them.
* Handy rifle in case your bicycle chain breaks?
You actually need a video of an X-ray of the rifle as it’s fired.
Heads up love all your videos, but this one's only got audio on the right channel!
That looks amazing, and now I want to take it apart.
A clock spring, a giant fusee chain and a P-13 with a little Picasso and seasoned with an SL8 aesthetic. Don't forget the plumb brandy.
Had to check it wasn't April fools day. Great video Jonathan
That is quite creative.
I guess this meand Furrer was the Swiss Kretz. Having a thing and sticking to it; Kretz with his chains and Furrer with his toggle locks.
The bit about the terminology of “automatic” was a trip had me thinking about fully automated turrets in the future and people looking back at us with our primitive weapons we had to aim
is the audio almost entirely in the right channel for everyone else?