UK Ring Circuits (previously Ring Mains) for Socket Outlets
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2016
- Ring circuits as used in the UK for socket outlets.
Radials: • Radial Circuits
Lighting: • Lighting Circuits Part 1
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Technology Connections brought me here!
I watched the same video from TC, but never took the initiative to follow through on my homework until the algorithm brought me here
So he doesn't have a Video on that topic? *Sadface*
You could have have individual fuses for the two ends of the ring to discover if the ring is broken. But that would only be for the live, as the neutral is not fused anyway.
Yup! I almost fell asleep though listening to this guy. The lip smacking at the end woke me up though.
It really was prompted by CJR electrical’s videos where he keeps going on about testing ring circuits, but before that I had seen TC’s video too combined that led me here 🙂
Hello from the weird year 2020. I just watched Technology Connections explaining the U.S. electrical system. He casually explained that it's not nearly as weird as the U.K. ring mains. So that's why I am here. Great explanation. Yes, I now understand why it should be removed from the current standard.
ME TOO! - hello from the USA :)
lodno
I also looked this up after watching the Technology Connections video about our electrical system!
It was suggested to me after his video! Lol
Apparently UA-cam is recommending the same videos to all of us. Greetings fellow curious cats!
I don't know anything about electrics and to be honest i'm not sure how i ended up here, but i find this guy strangely captivating. I'm now considering installing a new consumer unit and ring main for no reason other than John Ward showed me how.
I know nothing about Rockets but I saw a video on UA-cam and I am now considering going into outer space. Lets hope Peter Wilson was not serious.
Don't listen to the naysayers, I've seen sparks that have an IQ of no more than 50 and seem to do fine.
You can lick your finger and touch the bus bar to see if it's live just do it fast, if it goes DADADADADADADADADA up your arm and you tense up it's live.
Just kidding... Obviously...
I did mine but I was an apprentice for two years and assisted on many a board change, and I have mild ocd the wiring is absolutely beautiful it took me absolutely ages and no one gets to appreciate it :(.
Who else came here after Technology Connections (06/20) drove you to a search?
Yep, me also!
I've seen this two years ago.
yes i did
So then it's a no for you, @@pigsnoutman.
Here as well from Technology Connections
By far and away the most lucid explanation I have ever seen. Something I've always thought should be fairly simple has always had an air of complex, don't touch, experts only etc. and John's explanation is so easy to absorb. Your a genius JW.
I was taught the virtues of the ring mains when I left school in the 80's and did my apprenticeship, just before moving into IT, and thought it was a great idea. Now in my 50's and having moved into various old properties (and always checking for signs of heat/loose connections in electrical outlets) this video has explained so much. Well worth 16 minutes of my life to totally change my mind as to the safety of electrical circuits.
You described how to wire a ring main up perfectly clear,I understood it perfect! Thank you !
The Canadian Electrical code still allows ring circuits in 2015. Never used one, never seen one and didn't even know what it was until I watched this video. Great video.
Great video. Clear explanation. Currently studying this on my Level 1 Diploma course. Makes so much more sense to install separate radial circuits throughout a domestic dwelling. Cheers!
Fantastic Explanation, 6 years later your video was recommended to me. All praise the algorithm.
I am a retired electronics tech who actually did some rewiring in my father's house in the UK. The old, lead-covered cable under the floorboards was beautifully layed out and neatly dressed, but as soon as it was disturbed the old rubber insulation disintegrated. I am guilty of incorporating "a borrowed neutral" into a three-way stair lighting circuit, but I am sure that the house has been completely rewired since my father sold it in the late 1980s. I could not understand the need for a ring circuit, primarily because I understood the risk of overloading in the event of ring discontinuity. This is the first video I have encountered that explains why I was correct about ring circuits.
Thanks JW you brought me back up to speed, having done house wiring back at college as part of my apprenticeship I went into electronics and only ever used household electrics when needing to do my own, I will keep this video as a reminder. Thanks again. Ray.
Now that i moved to london i found your videos very helpfull understanting uk domestic instalations. Thank you very very much.
Where have you come from to the UK? Are you working as an electrician here, and if so what country did you learn your trade? Thanks
Crystal clear and very much appreciated , why can’t all d I Y videos be made like this . Great job
Excellent teacher, excellent channel. Thanks JW. I had a 32A ring circuit in an old outbuilding, and rodents had gotten into the walls, chewed on the wires and the RCD kept tripping. I expected the worst, that the circuit had been destroyed, but the electrician isolated and removed the chewed section and I was delighted to end up with two 16A radial circuits that tested fine and with roughly the same number of sockets on each. Could have been worse.
Singapore, and a few other Commonwealth countries, use Ring Whatevers.
Here in VietNam Singapore invested highfises are equipped wigh clunky UK Plugs although not Ring Mains.
We also use US-style flat in plugs, as well as Chinese plugs.
When travelling i prefer the universal connector that comprises 2 wires wiith bared ends and fit almost anything!
Very interesting as always but twice as amusing 👍😃 love your commentary on this video!
Thanks John. Simple explanation. Much appreciated. Keith
The most compelling reason for ring mains/circuits as compared with separate cabling to each socket (as in the forties) is that they give the user maximum choice in where to plug in portable appliances, without increasing the amount of wiring in proportion to the number of outlets.
The intention is that in a room with plentiful sockets there will not be any need for long leads on portable equipment (trip hazards) or multi way adaptors (which can be a fire hazard).
Why not use a radial?
The advantage of the ring over the radial is that you can test for loop resistance. This detects whether there are any poor connections at any point in the ring, which could lead to a fire risk. You can test this at any point in the ring, without visiting all the sockets. This test is the reason for most of the rules about spurs.
Secondly, if a poor connection does develop, it's less likely to cause a fire unless a second poor connection arises. This is because most of the power will flow to the socket that's in use by the line of least resistance. The dodgy socket gets hot when it is used, and hopefully the consumer will notice. That socket does not get hot when other sockets are in use (unless there are TWO dodgy connections)
In contrast, in a radial, if there is a poor connection at an unused socket, that socket will get hot whenever sockets are used that are further from the CU. If that socket is rarely used, or is a permanently plugged in appliance, the consumer is unlikely to notice the hot socket till it bursts into flame.
So the extra cabling back to the CU is for testing and safety. There is a coherent case to support this
You clearly feel the the disadvantages outweigh those advantages, but it's only fair to mention that there is some sense to the design. It's not totally daft, as you seen to imply
Old ways die hard. Ring circuits usually reliable enough.Great variety of wiring globally.Protection way better now than it used to be. A neighbour called in about faulty socket years ago. Upon investigation at the fusebox, there in place of a fuse was a 6 inch nail glowing red hot. Necessity is the mother of house fires.
The ring main was introduced after a long and hard war (WW2) and materials were in short supply, previously houses with electricity had few 15A sockets each wired as a spur from a fuse box. With the advent of 13a fused plugs and ring mains (as then called) with the limited and perhaps rationed cable could be used for more houses than the same amount of copper used as single socket radial circuits.
Whether a ring circuit NOW represents the best practice doesn't matter because there are probably 20 million ring circuits in existance and most electricians will meet them on a daily basis.
Crystal clear and comprehensive as always. Thanks.
Thanks again for a very important subject
When I first heard about these, I thought they were relics of the past. I was _shocked_ (lol) to find out that they're still in use today, and you've explained very clearly to me how they work. I wouldn't want one in my house; good thing everything here in the States is what you refer to as radial.
They should be relics of the past, unfortunately plenty of people still insist on installing them.
@@jwflame Why don't they just repeal the standard for new installations? We have plenty of old wiring over here that, if worked on by a certified electrician (on the record), must be updated to meet current standards.
I will never get over how differently you Electricians in the U.K. Do things differently than us Electricians in the States.
Though I know you are professional tradesmen and take great skill in your craft , and know what you are doing, something like that would never be allowed over here.
Always enjoy watching the way things are done over there.
Wasn't intending to be disrespectful if I was, anyways cheers from the States.
I shoud not say this, or even go there, but the holy grail of all audipophile nutters is their own spur and somehow the magic electricity is different and everything is better with a dedicated spur. Loved the video, learnt lots please ignore previous comment 8) .
Very interesting thanks John. I often wondered why the ring circuit concept was introduced.
Very clear concise explanation of ring circuit.
Fairly strong opinions being expressed at the beginning. You certainly aren't shy !
Thumb up for the first 15 sec!
I'm an electrician from abroad and I was so scared when I opened my UK house consumer unit
Clear explanation John, thanks very much
Great video. Answers most DIY questions!
I watched this when it was new. I installed a garden building on my own land for my office, it was all wired using advice from this vid without ring circuits, but higher rated cable (6mm). 5 years later, it all still works perfectly. even with a 2.7Kw heater running off it at one point, as well as a computer and LED lighting. BTW, I also have a spur direct from the consumer unit for my Ring doorbell. All common sense stuff.
A spur off the CU for a door bell? That's got to be a first! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I heard, and believe story that, those 2* single sockets as spurs, were often changed to double-sockets (e.g. those conversion sockets)), thereby overloading the protection requirements for unfused spurs. So, regulations changed to disallow that configuration.
13x2=......?
@@cglees 26 =) which, is usally ok for a 2.5mm cable unless thoroughly insulated.
Diversity says in pratice this double-socket-spur (or indeed, 2 single sockets as spur) is allowable.
However, for some reason, 2-sockets-to-1-plug adapters are allowed un-fused, which seems kind of silly!.
Thank you John for the nice video.
Excellent explanation thanks, needed a refresher.
Thank you for the video, it was really helpful!
Nice video John well explained very well done
Good video, learned a lot.
Thanks.
Thanks for an excellent factual presentation 👍
Hello John, love the videos, crystal clear and based in reality. I'm a basic DIY'er but want to do things safely and in accordance with the standards/guidance where possible. I live in a victorian terraced house in Wales. It has a modern CU but what I'm not sure about is whether it has a ring or radial circuit. Is there an easy way to find out? I've had a look at a couple of other videos but am left confused...
Many thanks, Craydon
Very comprehensive thank you, I thought it was a great point about a wire in the ring losing connection and creating a scenario where the circuit is able to draw more than the rated 26 amp. Even worse if they are double sockets which is way more likely. Anyone is able to test this with a simple continuity check.
Great explanation John , genuinely you can have the same number of spurs as you have sockets on the ring , in theory you can have as many sockets as you like as long as you don’t exceed a certain floor area of a 100 square metre. But as you rightly say it comes down to common sense. Till recently a domestic property ie a two story house had three ring mains , and two lighting circuits,one for the ground floor one for the upper floor and the kitchen had its own ring main because there would be quite a few high power appliances such as fridge freezer washing machines tumbler dryers microwave , electric toaster kettle food mixer and if you could afford it a dishwasher. Personally I think ringmains still have their place . In houses . Because if you have a fault on say the ground floor ring you still have the upstairs ring as well with the lights .
below comment is not good john but i appreciate you about your work because i know that what hard work are required for sharing some knowledge for others thanks john
Thanks for your time.
Thank you John. That was very clear and well explained :-)
Hi John, thanks for the useful video. I have recently bought a static caravan in which the ring main for the sockets is protected by a 20A breaker. The wiring is 2.5mm T&E. Is there any reason why I may not be able to increase the breaker to 32A? Would the incoming supply from the park affect this - although there are much bigger vans on the park than mine which must have higher loads?
Cheers JW love your videos.
thanks so much for the info..perfectly explained, per usual.
Come to think of it, I use a similar "circuit design" on my electrical fence (that adds extra incentive for my dogs to not try to go through the yard fence). If a wire gets broken, both sections of the fence still have power.
I can see a reason why the ring circuit could have an advantage from a fault tolerance standpoint, but I would still size the wire so that even if the ring was broken, it could still handle as much current as the circuit breaker for the circuit.
I never rely on a house that I buy to be wired *correctly* since a previous owner might have thought he was competent to do DIY electrical work (and he wasn't) or the builder was using somewhat unskilled workers who didn't particularly care whether they did it right for the wiring installation. I've seen cases where 110VAC was on the *ground* at an outlet because some wires were touching in an outlet box. To be fair though, this was an old house which was originally built without electricity and there were still remnants of previous electrical wiring designs. There were places in the attic where some of the old asbestos and tar wiring insulation was still around (although it wasn't being used). There were also some remnants of the old "knob-and-tube" style where wires didn't have insulation on them and bare wires were run while being separated from contact with the materials of the house (or each other) by porcelain knob and tube insulations.
My employer loves a Ring circuit, they'd put one in for any socket circuit consisting of 2 or more double sockets. I personally fail to see the point most of the time. It does make sense to have a 32A circuit for a kitchen/utility and I guess the little bit of extra testing involved still beats fitting a load of sockets with two 4mm cables in them.
I remember one of my college teachers saying about how he'd converted a lighting circuit wired in 1mm into a ring because it was on a 10A MCB and the cables were all buried in insulation, bet that was a head scratcher for the next guy to work on it 😂
It's not Ring, like the new video doorbell button; just "ring," the generic object.
Wow... I can almost admire this in concept. Wow.
I could have done with a ring circuit to power my twin 2400W boiler elements for my still. I actually like the concept. Cheaper than having 20 amp circuitry installed.
Hi, thanks for your videos. Could you please make a tutorial about how to connect/wire a 3 gang switch so it controls 3 devices for example? In my kitchen, I have a ventilator, ceiling light and led light under the cabinets and I have 4 set of cables (each having a Ground, L, N) coming out from the wall ready to be connected to a switch.
Thanks for these videos
Hi Mr John.
Basically how much is the maximum socket can share in 1 single ring circuit using setup C32 MCB + 2.5mm cable?
Thanx in advance.
can we install fused spur in ring main and small fuse to use as a lighting circuit
I agree with John ring mains can be potentially dangerous I had a situation where I did some work on a property I tested the ring a couple of weeks before when I changed the distribution board and then I went back to add a socket to find the ring now wasn't continuous luckily there was a freshly decorated wall where a socket looked as if it was tampered with as it was put back on wonky so I pulled the socket off to my surprise there was a loose connection to get to the point I filled out a cert on that property a couple of weeks before now if I never went back that ring circuit could still be a potential danger
I'm not big fan of ring circuits, but there is the benefit that the overall resistance of the circuit is reduced considerably when you have that last leg back. I mean, it does effectively nearly double the effective CSA of the conductor, and thus capacity of the circuit, by just having that (often short) return leg. I could see there being a lot more burnt-up sockets/cables if radials with many sockets on them where more common, as connections inevitably loosen over time, resistance (impedance?) increases, and then folk go and plug electric heaters and the like into them. I know regular testing should defeat this possibility, but really, how often do people actually get their installations tested? In my experience, the answer is: much, much less than they should.
Exactly my opinion! Leaving the ring complete as is it is and reducing the breaker to 25 A would be the best option with the safety add on that a broken wire would not be able do result in an overload. Long radials always have voltage drop issues at their endings.
A great learning channel...thanks
Hello John, I'm finding your videos to be an excellent learning resource, thank you! Could you, at some time, please do one on adding a garage consumer unit?
Say 6:52 , will there still be current flowing through the right side of the brown wire?
What about the voltage drop for circuits like this? How do we calculate them?
Also for 12:12 , if there's a spur circuit, how do we calculate the voltage drop for this case?
As an American with an electrical background, I've always been interested in what a UK "ring circuit" actually is, and how it works. This is the first guy I've encountered who explained it clearly in a way I understood. Thanks for that.
It does seem like a simple enough concept, but I can also see why it was probably never adopted over here, because of extra wire, expense, etc.
I guess now I need to understand more about what a Consumer Unit is/does.
@@UncaBeeTV UK consumer unit == US circuit breaker panel. The physical engineering is slightly different but the function is exactly the same.
I’ve put a few new sockets on existing 32amp 4mm wire radial no problems love it.
Thank you John.
To add extra sockets for office room, would you say a fcu to extra sockets or just add them to ring is best?
Got to determine if they are a ring or radial first...
Hello John. Thanks for all the videos. Have you though about a short intro on the organ at the start Monty Pythonesque styleeeeee. Good Luck lad
So was the UK solution to the ring circuit deficiency the addition of the 30ma ground fault circuit breaker in the consumer unit?
Brilliant !
Many thanks.
Excellent Video
Let's see what kind of shamble this are , brilliant the way you mentioned 😀
I only did a short course as part of a mechanical engineering day release course many years ago, so my knowledge is limited as since then I've only done DIY electrical work, appliance repairs adding the odd spur, wiring up sheds, or simple light circuits.
I'm old enough to remember the days when the previous wiring circuits were still used in many older houses, before these came in; if I remember right, sockets were on the same type of circuit as lights are now (can't remember what they're called), and people would often run half a dozen things, radio, lamp, iron etc, off the light socket on the ceiling.
Overload became a serious problem back then, and we had warnings about it on the tv.
Now, on a circuit such as your diagram, a person could have a 12 way tower, plus half a dozen USBs on each socket, and from those towers, further extension leads. There are no warnings about overload!
I know my example is at the extreme end but, even though many things draw much less power than they used to, surely we're heading towards some serious problems.
Circuit breakers are so good these days, that I've almost forgotten how to change a fuse in a plug, but are they really good enough, that we can safely keep on plugging things in the way we do?
Isn't it time we had warnings on the tv again? Or am I worried about nothing?
My whole house is only one ring circuit. I would like to separate all the kitchen sockets. Would you suggest a kitchen radial and another radial for the rest or two separate ring circuits. Would that question be dependant on total number of sockets and appliances(total load)?
Fantastic tutorial thank you
Connecting a socket direct to the consumer unit. Does this have to be a miniature ring? or can it be a single strand of twin and earth connected to the 32a breaker that the main house ring is connected to?
What about insulation With a radial like a 4mm 32A would need to be 6mm how would that terminate. I install 4mm rings in bungalows where insulation is packed in.
Very well described!
The problem with a 4mm2 radial is that the ccc drops to only 30 amps installed in trunking reference method B if cables entering db are installed using 50x50mm trunking as an example which is quite common if in a garage etc. You can't really omit overload protection on a socket radial circuit protected by a 32amp mcb if say it was a kitchen radial. So there are disadvantages in using this method.
Any reason why you didn't talk about fused spurs (eg for spurs off spurs)?
20A radials for the win. Chances are most houses now have some sort of radial circuit from a spur...off a spur off a spur. Swap the MCB for a 20A to be on the safe side.
* Spur FROM a spur FROM a spur.
4mm cable is harder to pull through, more expensive to buy and the wires are more difficult to screw 2 into the back of the terminals on socket oulets. Just a few disadvantages of radial to balance things a bit.
Radial circuits don't have to be 32A, or use 4mm² wire.
Cheap, easy and dirty. Typical UK.
I want to add about 5 unswitched socket (in a ring final circuit) behind my entertainment unit this is because once everything is put in place I would not have access to the socket to switch individual items on and off a bit like when you install a washing machine or a dishwasher. I would like to add 5 switches to these unswitched socket so I can individually switch them on and off, seen a lot of videos but none showed the above example would be grateful if you could do a video on it, many Thanks
Makes sense to me ,often thought about doing it that way using rcbos
Are there two Active or Phase wires going around the ring and returning or did you mean Active and Neutral meaning 2 wires?
Major newsreader vibes but I learnt a lot, thanks!
The one big saftey advantage I can see with a ring circuit would be in the case of a connection going resistive or resistive break. Connections going resistive is where fires start. The connection becomes very hot due to the voltage drop across the unintentional resistance. In the case of a ring circuit though since power is still supplied from the other end the resistive connection will see no voltage drop and no power dissipation.
Helped me so much! Your videos are great
I have split many ring mains into two radials on 25 amp RCBOs,usually due to cumulative earth leakage,the bane of all RCD protected circuits with today’s ever increasing electronic supplies
Since I came across JWs youtube videos I follow him whenever I need clarification on electrical installation. Here is one query JW !How would one supply BS7671 compliant ring circuit for sockets outlets using with 32 A RCCB when the generator supply has a lowly rated MCB say 20A or less
Thanks John
I defo use ring mains for kitchen appliances with a few isolators in a cupboard so that it becomes a balanced load on cables and hidden away from worktops make a neater job, I would use it to feed for example, cooker hood, hob ignitor, dishwasher, waste disposal, hot tap, bolier. Fridge will be on its own RCBO circuit for obvious reasons such as going on holiday you don't want some thing to trip the RCD and affect the fridge if it wasn't wired in separately.
Very interesting wiring structure
I come from a industrial/commercial installation background 15yrs+ , but for the last 5yrs I have been working in Domestic.
I was recently instructed by my boss to add a F.C.U. in a garage for a new Electric Door. When I arrived I found the existing Socket within the Garage that I was to spur off of, was itself a spurred off of a Socket Outlet on the adjoining Kitchen Ring.
I called my Boss and expressed that I felt it would be better practice to either add a leg to the existing spurred socket to make it a part of the ring main, or to add a F.C.U. to the Ring within the Kitchen, which could then feed this existing spurred Garage Socket Outlet, and then spur off of it to feed the new F.C.U. for the Garage Door.
My Boss said it was fine because it was an F.C.U. I disagreed, and expressed that it was about protecting the cable leaving the Kitchen Ring, and that the F.C.U. was only protecting anything it gave power to.
I’m sure I was right, am I?
Very interesting!
At last! Ring circuit made easy
16:00 i Loved your hint of frustration there, rings have no place in this day and age and if the next edition or regulation want to do something sensible and worthwhile then they should ban these massively outdated ridiculous circuits.
Always wired 30 or 32A with 4mm2, you are on the safe side in any scenario. For bedrooms you could use 2.5mm2 with 20A MCB which is more than enough for average house
Cost you a fortune in cable would have to take half a brick depth out to cap that up 🤣
Can there be a good case for Completing a B20-breaker radial circuit, into a complete ring (while keeping the B20-breaker, not B32), as a means to reduce the Voltage Drop with little extra cable, while avoiding the 'overloading' scenario mentioned?.
This also allows for any section of the ring to be 'removed' if damaged, without having to re-run cabling / hacking out floorboards/walls/whatever. This can prove useful in many cases!. I _do_ think this is a good reason for wiring as a ring even if you use a B20 breaker...
@@sbusweb easier to "split into 2 radials' on 2x 20amp mcbs.
1 cable from 20amp mcb to sockets
and
another 1 cable from 20amp mcb to sockets....no join between the radial sockets...both totally separate!
easier to fault find and add too
Hi John, excellent videos. I wonder if you could offer some thoughts on choice of radial over ring in a kitchen, I have estimated the max diversified load at 23.7A, whilst a 2.5mm can just about support that, i'd presumably have to put a 32A MCB, as 20A MCB is too low. I don't want to put two radials in the kitchen because eventually somebody will do some maintenance turn off one kitchen MCB without realising there are 2 and kill themselves, not my problem but not ideal. So that leaves me thinking of a 4mm radial circuit with a 32A MCB, is that a more sensible approach in your opinion and will standard sockets easily take 4mm connections?
Yes, a 32A radial in 4mm is ok and most sockets will easily accept 2x 4mm conductors. Some sockets will actually take 2x 6mm.
Another option is a 25A radial in 2.5mm cable, provided the cable is not installed in insulation or other ways which reduce it's capacity.
Great video! You’d make a fantastic news “READER” the last word of each of your sentences are very “PRONOUNCED” non the less, you really seem to know your “SUBJECT”