Debate: Identity Politics is Tearing Society Apart
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- Опубліковано 16 лют 2020
- Is identity politics tearing society apart or is it a call for social justice for everyone?
For the motion we have:
- journalist and author of 'We Need To Talk About Kevin', Lionel Shriver.
-founding chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Trevor Phillips.
Against the motion we have:
- Labour politician, David Lammy.
- journalist, Dawn Foster.
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From your perspective, what is the role of Identity Politics in society?
Well think about South Africa after apartheid of course there was an equalization but there was never a true understanding of we are all people 🤔
@BLAIR M Schirmer Exactly! 👍
@BLAIR M Schirmer 👍 they never ever would dare to do that . That's the real problem. Free speech is dead. All we have now well mostly are just pig farts
Hard to really say. Identity politics is different in every country. Its been weaponized in America to prevent economic or political change.
@BLAIR M Schirmer 👍
I’m 22 years old, and I cannot think of a world I would want to live in less than a world plagued with identity politics.
Lionel Shriver was only one able to stand back from the issue and take a look at issue without anger. Sadly life is not fair for any of us. We are all responsible for our own lives . We need to find a way within the vision we have for ourselves that is realistic. Our actions should not deviate from our goal and all discrimination reported to effect the change we need to see happen in a society that embraces all of our talents and abilities. There is no need for destruction of property to get this point across.
Exactly. There are many of us millennials who want nothing to do with identity politics.
If I could transport you back to the 80's or 90's, I would. It wasn't a perfect place, but it was a time of true rebellion, road trips, testing conventions. How do you identify meant - what kind of music are you into?
Too late.
I guess there's not only "BOOMERS" on that side 😒 (I'm 31)
Lionel at the end of her opening statement:
I like dancing, I'm a fan of Graham Greene, Richard Yates, and Edith Wharton, I've published 13 books and they are part of who I am, I like Poldark, I'm mediocre at tennis but still enjoy it, and more.
Dawn at the very beginning of her opening statement:
I'm a woman, I'm white, I have a disability.
The difference in mindset is clear.
The first woman is so self assured and intelligent, the second incoherent and bumbling ..and her continually reminding us she has a disability and flailing her arms about are so annoying.
@@catrionamacfarlane4949 perhaps thats why one is more successful than the other.
What actual disability? I don't mean ideological possession. I don't see any disability.
@@gg_rider Chances are it's something as simple as her lisp, or maybe autism or anxiety, or something else along those lines. Something that when you say it on it's own it sounds so trivial, but saying "I have a disability" puts you higher up on the identity politics oppression ladder I suppose, anything to make yourself sound slightly more diverse.
@@gg_rider I believe it's called 'journalist for The Guardian'.
Dawn Foster's 'boomer' references actually demonstrates the divisiveness in identity politics. She is trying to box in and discount a specific group based upon one aspect of identity with the objective to diminish them so that she can have her way. Hypocrite.
Well put - I wish more people would see that for themselves.
Is it hypocritical?- it’s kind of on brand for her side lol
OK Boomer :)
I’m pretty sure she just called attention to generational differences. If I said that my parents don’t understand slang, is that boxing in and discounting a specific group of people?
@@dewilew2137 Thanks for the comment - not an aspect that I had considered.
Thinking about this point as a Boomer -- I have tried to understand SOME of the 'current 'identity terminology' and it remains confusing to me - it seems to keep changing while there are strong expectations that we MUST get it right in order to guarantee that we are being respectful. I do think that the vast majority of people try to be respectful to others regardless of orientation but are heavily criticized as homophobic if correct terminology isn't used. (Accusations against Jordan Peterson is a very public example.) I think it is this strong reaction to incorrect terminology that is contributing to wedges in our society. Of course there are those who have no intention to be respectful - but in my experience, their behavior usually is not limited to people with different orientation.
Dawn, if you ever read this, I'm 26 and panicking over identity politics. Stop lumping people into groups to discredit them. It's impolite and discriminatory.
“The color of my skin is an arbitrary accident not a personal brand” powerful
Idiotic.
Same as the make up of your (race baiting) genes, eh? 😉
@@aakasoto why?
There's nothing arbitrary or accidental about it.
@@davidjensen2999 It is to me. It is when other people define it by me that I become aware of it.
"When I look at people, I don't see a list of checkboxes."
**five seconds later**
"Only white middle class boomers say they're being silenced."
One sounds good the other shows intentions.
got a sample of double-speak right there.
He is so privileged
😂👍👍🏻👍🏼👍🏽👍🏾👍🏿
When the cultural Marxist AKA the Left attack you then you can wear any insult as a badge of honour.
The Left mostly only attack good people.
You know your doing good when the Left don’t like you.
We all have better things to do than deal with these mentally corrupt souls but if our grandparents and so many others gave their lives to fight tyranny and totalitarianism then at least we can stand against them and use what’s left of our free speech before they also steel that from us.
The cultural Marxist Left continue prove they are a social, cultural and economic wrecking ball.
The Left are evil.
And are worse than Churchill once described.
The philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy
It’s inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery
Churchill had a lot of experience fighting the NAZIS aka national socialist.
So much in common
Hated the Jews
Hated Democracy
Hated Capitalism
Lové Racism
Lové division, chaos and anarchy
Another day another reminder
Dawn doing the Ok boomer meme is literally the pot calling the kettle black
Don't you mean African American?
@@PHENN7 my bad, I meant kettle of color
Substitute ANY other group (other than straight white males) using the same tone of voice she derided Boomers, and she would no longer have a job.
And no, I am not a Boomer.
When she said "I have many white male friends", I immediately imagined what her reaction would be if someone she was trying to cancel for being racist had said "I have many black friends".
Funny how that works.
I think had that connection in mind deliberately when she penned the line in her speech. I think she was serving notice..almost a challenge to the weak, woke wets to attempt to cancel her.
No, you missed the irony of her statement. Most of her male friends are white. She parodied the white statement: "I have some black friends."
You clearly missed the point. You seem mad because you probably got called out for being racist yourself.
@@dpcisunbreakable ugh
@@elizabethbennet4791 What's the problem?
I’m 32, and I fully endorse what Lionel said.
Your a smart man
Same here. Aaaaaaaand I’M BLACK!
@@jonhelguson doesn't matter what race you are my friend we are all human. haha
Very un balanced.
@@fkl770 agreed, but being black in America unfortunately means you have been exposed to some powerful propaganda
“I don’t have a tick box”
“I do have a tick box”
“I’m a female”
I’m disabled”
“I’m white”
“You’re a Boomer”
There, now you can skip through Dawn’s first speech and save yourself a headache.
I wish I read you comment before I got the head ache LOL R.O.T.F.
She was flailing. 😳🥴
Too late - I have a headache!
I started getting a headache and I came looking for your comment for the cure.
Thank God I checked the comments before watching.
Dawn using the group identity of 'boomers' to dismiss the opinions of a large portion of society is exactly the problem with identity politics. 'Boomers' are a large portion of functional individual members of society. This tactic is the same as saying Gen Z or Millenials' opinions don't matter because of their age/experience. Senseless and pointless generalisation which cancels out individual experience.
I wish I saw this before I made my comment. This is exactly how a feel. She talks about equality and then casually dismisses and makes fun of Boomers over and over.
Totally agree, identity politics isn’t for equality, it’s for more power fir her white middle class arse
That was one of the most painful debates I have ever witnessed. Foster and Lammy seemed to be unprepared and determined to avoid debating the motion entirely.
I have noticed that people on the "pro-identity politics" side of these discussions never seem very well-prepared to defend their position except to say "People are mean!" That may be because they live in a bubble when everyone agrees with them and tells them they are correct about everything. To paraphrase John Stuart Mill: He who knows nothing about his opponent's position knows little of his own.
The left before: Don't label me.
The left now: Acknowledge all of my labels and stick to yours!
@@hanifahad803 Not sure if you're serious but I'll assume you are. You're the brainwashed one here Hani. You don't know a thing about me and you are able to make assumptions about me that I'm a Christian, conservative, fascist and white. All of which are false. I'm actually an Asian pantheist libertarian who chose to live in China.
The telltale sign of someone possessed by ideology aka completely brainwashed is the instantaneous "us vs them" instinct kicking in when someone disagrees with you. Just because you disagree with me, you've instinctively assigned onto me all these labels that you'd characterized your ideological opponent.
@@72dew wow chinese guy , i must say you will be welcomed in countries with brand of politics which you support, the fact that YOUR people are getting the racist treatment for Coronavirus in western and other fascist ruled countries yet you support the ideology of conservatism fascinates me but then again you are used to obey respect THE RULER no matter what, your chinese premiere must be your GOD
@@72dew serious question, the goof you responded to in this tread made the assertion that the "right" is against Asians, raising racism Against Asians, etc. In regards to Corona. Obviously this was months ago, but this narrative has persisted. Do you feel hate from the right? I am a conservative, I admire anyone who works hard and succeeds, which statistically Asians do (in the US, in relation to other groups, though I know there are many groups IN that group, and some don't do as well)... Anyway, long-winded as hell, I'm asking because I don't see it. I don't see any conservatives I know, railing against Asians or downing them in any way. The government of China? Yes, no love there... but I'm wondering what you see.
All the evangelical leftists have is labels. They don't believe in objective truth, therefore they have no moral centre.
Its all bull crap.
West Afrika was always rich & had slaves.
There Muslim religion was beaten out!?!
Since when West Africa was Muslim?
Muhamad was from West Africa?
Such a Liberal Bullcrap
Lionel Shrivers opening statement was one of the most powerful indictments of identity politics I've ever had the pleasure of digesting.
She was brilliant
Set some time aside for yourselves to read a little political history for one and stop listening to conservative pundits for two.
For no reason she needs to name drop a woman who doesn’t believe in the validity of trans women and blames women for being assaulted by powerful men. Weird flex but okay.
@@ericdecker2914 You should crack a history book open once in awhile and see what happens when the left goes too far. I'll give you the Cliff's Notes version: 100 million end up dead.
Stop listening to leftist pundits, who sow racial division and traffic in propaganda.
She was evasive and brilliantly sidestepped questions by redirecting her answers so as to mislead her audiance.
@@Edge81 You must be referring to Dawn Foster. Yes, I agree.
Lionel the ONLY coherent voice on the panel! Was this supposed to be a fair debate? 3 against 1?
The moderator says “thank you Lionel. Not too insidious, there.”
They give her a co-panelists who is ultimately against her on identity politics.
And the only question they ask twice was asked so that someone could contradict Lionel.
I find this gross.
This was 1 v 3 in my view too.
@@dementare trevor’s point seemed to be - identity politics is tearing society apart, as it should and not enough!
Dawn opening with "I'm a woman, white, disabled", followed by "women especially, black women are paid less at work", followed by the "being old, you just don't get young people", made me a little less hopeful she'll enlighten me as the debate moves forward.
… but she almost never thinks about identity, that’s just what “old people” say. Not being able to hear one’s own hypocrisy definitely counts as a disability!
Interesting how she is all about protecting certain groups while also dissing older adults as not getting it. Maybe we get it and reject it.
She is rather apologetic and that affects her presentation.
@@silaslizzie43 thanks boomer
@@tembamhangami3655 with respect, I think you may be missing the nuance of her speech: the apologetic tone is passive aggression: by painting herself as a weak, oppressed victim, and any critics as foolish “old people” who really don’t understand, she’s trying to undermine the logical arguments of the other side without being able to present a coherent alternative argument.
Lionel's elegant speech, followed by Dawn, was like having a starter of scallops gently fried in butter with lardons and crushed minted peas, followed by a main course of lard.
Goddammit, thats so good.
Agreed, great metaphor!
Wow. Epic, epic metaphor. Bravo.
Technically simile but otherwise agree it was great.
Agreed
Lionel Shriver: "My skin colour is a accident. Not a personal brand."
Dawn: "BOOMERS"
Dawn: "Identity politics isn't just about identities fighting it out for power."
Also Dawn: "Don't listen to those OLD people its the time for the YOUNG now."
If Dawn Foster and David Lammy are the best the, 'against argument' can come up with, speaks volumes for the weakness of their position.
Dawn opens her statement with an ageist remark.. Great way to start an intelligent debate.. Paint the other person as too old and therefore wrong..
Age covets experience and wisdom.
Also beginning a rebuttal to the claim that identity is dividing people begins by putting someone down on the basis of their identity
Dawn’s argument: “older people are fearful and must get over it and the rest should just accept it”.
I believe it was Mark Twain who pointed out that anyone who was a conservative when they were young didn't have a heart but anyone who was not conservative when they got old didn't have a brain. Young people have vastly less personal life history to use to judge the validity of what they're told by comparing what they're told is true with what they've seen with their own eyes to be true. That's why half the American population under 30 back in the Seventies was smoking dope and engaging in unsafe sex with multiple sex partners being covered up by abortions imagining that wouldn't lead to 30 million people dying of AIDS, massive drug overdoses, and DC going bankrupt because of Marion Berry blowing their tax money up his nose making gangs of drug dealers rich enough to overthrow governments. There has never been a generation in human history where those who survive to old age in it were not wiser than most people in younger generations due to idiots tending to die young from natural selection.
@@Texasjim2007 Agreed
@@Texasjim2007 58K fighting-age Americans were randomly selected to go and die in SE Asia during the period you're talking about, I'm not sure how Darwinism applies.
Not to mention that drug use and abortion falls much more on shitty government sex education and the government literally supplying drugs to its people to pay for black ops than the dumb kids who were used as test pawns.
Dawns argument was blatantly, unapologetic, bigoted and hypocritcally AGE-IST
@@Texasjim2007
You think the following generation are wiser and more circumspect in their personal lives?
I don't.
From the opening statement, the Fors had it. Those Against just proved their point by going through all the typical motions of Identity Politics. I can relate so hard with this. I was destroyed and proverbially run out of town in one job I had, because the people I worked with found out I wasn't exactly all for Identity Politics. It is toxic, adversarial, reductive and vicious worldview, that actively looks for fights and problems and even creates them when it doesn't find any.
I only just finished watching Shriver make her brilliant points, and am only a minute into the pasty, chubby white woman's rant (I have already, mercifully, forgotten her name), and I can unsurprisingly see where this thing is going. I predict that Shriver and Phillips will wipe the floor with the WOKE opposition.
your identity wasn't identical to theirs😄
This unfortunately is my work place too. Nothing but trainings on DEI and CRT. Doubling down on the identity politics BS
Lionel grabbed the thoughts inside of my head and expressed them perfectly. That was a knockout punch!
LOVED IT!!
Then she voted for Biden a few months later
The thought that one can stop discrimination by discriminating is the very embodiment of folly.
"Let's crush the remnants of this nearly-dead fire by dumping gasoline all over it!"
FWOOSH
"Oh noes who could have foreseen that!?"
Identity politics wasn't created to end discrimination but merely to change it from one group to another such as when previously favored groups caught on to how it was being used to manipulate them to do things not in their own self-interest.
@@Texasjim2007 it's: I want my turn in power
@@Texasjim2007 The revenge porn of societal fascism
@@Texasjim2007 that sounds like BS. What racist newspaper did you read that from?
What a phenomenal waste of Lionel Shiver's intellect, charm, and above all, time.
Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing.
They do not realise that their racism is identity politics.
They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter".
Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.
@@aem870 I think it's pretty reductive to say the only thing anti-identitarians have to complain about is statues.
Identity politics is prioritizing and politicizing groups based on immutable characteristics. Rational people, right and left, realize that racism is identitarianism, regardless of what group is being targeted.
Who, in this debate, do you consider a racist and/or right winger?
@@aem870 oh, nevermind. I see you just went through the comment section spamming each thread with this nonsensical drivel and don't actually have a salient point to contribute. I'll save my energy.
@@aem870 there it is!.the 9th repost of this crap, hoping to find the 10th!
@@aem870 yeah, I don’t think the racists and right wingers are against identity politics, as, which you pointed out, they themselves are only interested in lobbying for the needs and rights of the group or groups they are identified with and wish to represent. They’re anti BLM, and anti statue-topplers, sure, but these aren’t the people complaining about identity politics. It is people like me who would oppose both those on the left or the right who only wish to have the rights of their own group recognised and de-humanise “the other” - BLM are just as guilty of this as the white nationalists. There’s nothing “inclusive” about BLM, or the trans activists. They’re all divisive. All identity politics is divisive by its very definition!
Listening to Lionel gave me hope. These other speakers are living in an alternate reality. "We are in a white man's Era, a Trump Era". I wonder if he's aware the US had a black president in power for 8 years. Ah yes,, be sure to not mention this .
1 black man out of 46 presidents after over 400years of labour on that land means what ? & to who?
To call Dawn's speech narcissistic and incoherent is a grotesque understatement. And David just always ends up screaming and blaming people like he is giving a campaign speech. The both of them were very poor choices for the debate.
Lionel is like the sort of teacher everyone wants to have.
Lionel was too intelligent to be on this panel
Did you ever nail that. You've brought to mind my eighth-grade World Regions teacher, Ms. Minor-Major (seriously, that was her name) and my tenth-grade Chemistry teacher, Mrs. Watson (have never met a bad Watson since)-- no nonsense, demanding, devoted, honest and ticked. Rarely could ever make either smile and when you did, your world opened up and you knew you'd done something rather special and smart.
They're both gone now. Ms. Minor-Major was a DOD educator, transitioned us from pencils to pens, Mrs. Watson, a public school teacher, imparted to us the importance of "labels, labels, labels" in conversion factors. Both were walnuts, hard as nails.
Woke SJW team: loses debate
Host: “everyone’s a winner!”
SJW team: *grins, applaudes*
Classic.
Technically while the agree team won by number of people agreeing with their position, the general rule in this format is that the debaters that affect the most sway of opinion are the winners.
SonofaGib that’s like a silver medalist claiming they ran with better style. Yeah, no. Just like with any votes you either win or lose.
@300bpm That is literally the premise that these debates are held on.. @sonofagib described it perfectly..
@@laraking804 That is literally the premise that these debates are held on.. @sonofagib described it perfectly..
@300bpm That is literally the premise that these debates are held on.. @sonofagib described it perfectly..
What a legend Lionel Shriver is! in my opinion she spoke the most logic in this debate. Nice sign out too. You have a new fan :)
How is "British jobs for British workers" racist?
It simply calls for people of all colours, who are British citizens, to get priority.
I wonder if The statement 'British Jobs for British workers', can be both your suggestion of meaning and racist depending on whose hand that statement it being spoken by or repeated by, so the context needs to be asserted to make any definition. Perhaps the more media fuelled society which we all now share, there is such a need to entertain, sensationalise or scare to support their own agender that the subject across the board needs more clearly defined expression so as not to be misrepresented.
You are looking at it wrong.. don't think about how is something racist. Think what kind of thought process would make some one think that British jobs for British workers is racist.
It pretty simple.. they don't see themselves as British and they don't want British govt working for the British people.
I love how Dawn Foster steps up and immediately proves Lionel Shriver to be absolutely correct by instantly dividing people up into marginalized identity groups without any contextual analysis.
So essentially there's one person arguing for sanity and three other arguing people should be judged by immutable traits. great job. Very balanced.
There could have been 20 of them against Lionel and they still wouldn't have stood a chance. The smartest person subscribing to their ideology couldn't hold a candle to Lionel. She should have just left after her opening statement. It was a mic drop moment.
Couldnt have said it better
Caught that to.
My goodness, what an exceedingly underwhelming discussion, especially considering the promise it had at the beginning with Lionel's fantastic opening statement, and frankly, Dawn had absolutely no business being there with anyone else here.
Lionel was the only speaker that made sense, the 3 others regurgitated MSM talking points.
Not a balanced selection of speakers
Dawn is so poorly spoken, it’s almost unbearable. Never mind the fact that I’m 25 years old (therefore not a boomer) and identity politics has done nothing good for me.
She can't even string a coherent sentence together
It’s hard to articulate an argument that loses its logical consistency when it calls for over correcting racism to belittle white people today who aren’t racist
AII American Chutzpah lol what, yes racism exists. The problem it’s completely lost meaning at this point and people will call anything racist
Yes it has. White identity politics makes it so that you are less likely to get stopped by police; more likely to get the job; you yourself swipe left on a brown, black, or asian man far more than a white man. You and your people are the progenitors of identity politics in this country. Don't cry now that black people are fighting back.
Hi Paige.
Is the question whether identity politics has done anything good for you? Or is it whether identity politics can do something good for all of us; for people who, because of aspects of their identity, experience prejudice, discrimination, stigma and/or other forms of oppression?
Even if identity politics has done nothing for you yet, It's actually quite likely that one day it will. When we address the oppression experienced by others, we also reap benefits. These benefits include increased social cohesion, harmony, safety, productivity, creativity and educational attainment. Society as a whole grows stronger and brings everyone - including the most privileged - with it.
Lionel Shriver's opening statement was superb. Precise, articulate entirely rational and suffused with a humanistic plea to the better angels of our nature
nah.. cant trust that. history proves there are no better angels of our nature.
@@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126 Yes there are. And OP made a reference to Steven Pinker's book with the same name.
The better angels of our nature are each person that strives to make the world a better place. You and me. That vote for equality and prevent crime and discrimination.
@@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126 if you really think that you should get better friends and better yourself.
@@pleaseexcusemeimavirgo7126 We hear about heroic acts and random acts of kindness and compassion all the time. Where do you suppose they come from?
Suffused??? Well that's a new word I've learned today. 😅
Lionel was the only one that truly addressed the topic. Thank you for your voice here.
Okay, Dawn's speech was horrible, but all the obvious things aside:
she says "all the people that you see complaining are older, who have wealth, so they're not being silenced" etc.
maybe that's because all younger people that don't have that kind of influence are actually being silenced? :D
No, anyone who disagrees with them is silenced. They are equal opportunities bigots😄
Thank you Lionel Shriver; a brilliantly articulated argument.
I generally agree but the version of identity politics she was arguing against was definitely not a steel-man.
she was a pig among guinea pigs honestly, a clear cut above in quality of argument delivered. And if someone disagree with it, it's because they're a sexist bigot and cannot see a woman beat a man in an argument! just kidding i'm not retarded.
edit (second sentence is the joke, first sentence is sincere)
Why are blacks on stage over represented
She's a bit crap actually. And unattractive.
It was 3 against 1...!?
“Only boomers are worried about identity politics.”
Me, (a 14 year old): ..okay then.
uɐʇɐs exactly, I heard her say that and as a millennial I laughed out loud literally. I can see she is very fond of her identity based on race, gender, and disability. She blames older people but I find people from their thirties down to my nine year old son who think identity politics are horrible- but alas we are white, Americans so maybe we should ask my nephews who are different skin colors, or my children’s friends- even though they are louder than us about how it is destroying schools, politics, and social life. There are laws already to protect each group from everything she says here in US. Oh and I’m considered disabled as well as my older son who has autism but he said she is full of crap. Here colleges and jobs have quotas they meet to let people in who meet these boxes which means the people who are best trained or best qualified will not be chosen but just who ticks the most identity boxes. Therefore dumbing down society, not putting the best in jobs, and forcing people into little groups that they didn’t chose to be in but are forced to be put into a place where they are only valued by that list of boxes ticked. The example of Dr. Ben Carson- neurological brain surgeon and works in government over the past few decades. Black male. If these things were such a hindrance then presidents, doctors, police chiefs, teachers, professors, etc would only be white straight males- that’s not the case. If it was such a hardship none of these people would be able to speak on it- that’s the proof if it was true no one on that stage would be able to be there if they were so victimized to this day. Maybe it’s different here in the US but here white kids are always last in line as far as who is allowed to speak. Or offered a job or place in school.
Ashlee Babb Exactly, I hate how their definition of ‘equality’ is so twisted. Equality is a society where everyone is on the same level regardless of surface level matters such as race, gender or age and yet some people think that people of a certain race(or other ‘check box’) should be given a leg up. If we reversed the roles there would be a riot. (Sorry if I got anything wrong, I only have very limited knowledge on this subject because I never realised this type of thing happened until a couple months ago, I’m looking to know more though because this ‘identity politics’ is just wrong.)
Revoltingsheeple of course it’s okay to help people as long as they aren’t being prioritised solely because of their race/religion etc..
Revoltingsheeple
the children should be helped but not because they are Christians, because they deserve a better quality of life no matter what their background is.
As for taking away wealth: I don’t think that everyone should have to get their parents wealth taken away, if their parents/ancestors worked hard to get that money it shouldn’t be taken away, just have it be possible for anyone who wasn’t already born into wealth -no matter what is on their ‘checklist’- to work hard and make that money without prejudice or ‘favouritism’ towards people of a particular race, gender or religion.
I hope I made sense, I’m not great at putting my thoughts into words all the time.
people should earn their wealth but taking any away would be disrespectful to the families that worked hard to support their children.
David Lammy being the Labour MP, seems more concerned with defending his own place of power and being a politician than examining the principles behind this debate.
He is just a poor mans Bernie Grant
“I don’t think about other people in that way” - proceeds to make a pejorative statement about a group of people “boomers” after the older white women speaks so that she can be painted in a bad light. 😂 Totally logical and equal
I’m younger than dawn and I couldn’t disagree more with her and totally agree with Lionel. Also what an ironic ageist attitude she has to older people
Exactly.
I know, right? I am glad that I am not the only one who could hear the visceral hatred for older people in her comments.
Dawn claims it's just the Boomers that are against identity politics gen x right here and quite rightly I think identity politics is massive problem. Also she suggest there's a small group that criticize it. I think she's got that back to front there's a small loud group that get people cancelled and obsessed by identity most people can't stand it. She even tried to claim that defenders of identity politics are not on line, dude that's laughable as Twitter might as well be their 2nd home.
She lost me at ‘Boomers.’
Same: she couldn't be more wrong it's "mostly Boomers" - right there, with that, she made a great argument against her own thesis, but it was also anecdotal: not data, which shows the vast majority dislike identity politics, including those under 40 - yes, even on "the left." I'd be considered "Millenial" and I like Bernie Sanders, but not ID-politics and polling shows I'm not remotely alone. In fact, Lionel was right that the irony is the only group within which polling shows the majority embrace it is essentially wealthy, primarily white post-grads.
It's convenient too, if you're a gay female, but born into an upper-middle class family, because you can distract wholly from your economic advantage, if you get everyone buying the idea the straight white-guy growing up in poverty with a single mother was and is fundamentally more "privileged" than you. It's an incredibly insulting and ironically absolutist worldview of stereotypes in that way.
That panel was loaded Lionel was the only one that actually was against identity politics. What a load of BS that was.
Indeed the panel was loaded and whoever set it up must have known that in advance because what else can you expect from a black Labour MP, a Guardian columnist and the boss of the Equalities Commission.
Spot on mate.. my fella said they're all plants apart from the American lady
They should have had Douglas Murray on her side 👍🏾
19:12 Dawn is amazing! How she knew that all those white wealthy homeowners in their 50's never experienced any hardship due to the global financial crash as it didn't really affect them or any other of life's perils.... wow, just truly amazing how one could know such things and with such certainty.
The GFC certainly affected me: my stock portfolio lost over 27% of its value in the period 2008 - 2010. That's about $1.8m!
These selfish young people today. They have no idea what sacrifices we make!
Well all speakers accept Lionel have been very incoherent. I can't really tell what they're arguing at some points.
David Lammy conducted himself like a real charlatan here. Casuistry of the highest order.
Sowing fear and anger with every chance he has to speak, but resulting in saying very little of import.
They're both charlatans.
You taught me a new word! Casuistry! Perfectly used to describe this...David. 😹
Indeed he truly is a sophist and a Marxist apologist.
@@vajrayogini37 "They Have To Go Back". -His Excellency The Dalai Lama
ua-cam.com/video/MGVwybpHoxI/v-deo.html
Dawn Foster: "people who are upset about identity politics are boomers" ...way to alienate your audience.
The level of disrespect for the boomer generation is unconscionable. I'm a millennial and when I see some stupid kid use that phrase as an insult I want to smack them.
@@jdhill4 me too.
Dawn Foster's arguments were pretty vapid. True to form of a Guardian columnist
I found saying "ok zoomer" back to them pisses them off way more than boomers. It's quite funny xD
Her argument was pretty much, only old people think this way, and old people should be dismissed.
I'm a millennial born in 1988 Irish as white as they come and I absolutely detest identity politics. Lionel has just echoed everything I've always said to friends and family about this issue. Spot on 💯👌
“Kamala Harris is directly descended from one of the largest slaveowners in Jamaica, Hamilton Brown-there is a even a town named after him, Brown Town. So doesn’t it follow she’s a beneficiary, not a victim, of slavery?” D’Souza
Democrats have weaponized race in America, if you are black and vote republican, they are no longer tolerant but consider you as a black man who wants to please the white man. They have victimized minorities while at the same time made the problems worse, with politicians promising prison reform but incarcerating more and more from the black community. It’s promising more Americans from all races now , for the first time in decades, vote republican. Not because we are better, but as a clear rejection of the victimhood, and the culture police of the left. We are all Americans, the Latino’s in the US know what identity and class politics have created in South American countries. It was no real “socialism” but rule and divide. Be free of race thinking, we are all Americans with “The great American Dream”
Gotta love how at 57 minutes in, David Lammy, a millionaire who went to Harvard, attacks the other guy for being rich and having an Ivy League education.
Yeah, that was extraordinary - effectively: nothing at present (that is inconvenient for me) matters for as long as my ancestors were oppressed in the past
Trevor Phillips mentions that his ancestors were Muslims, and Islam was beaten out of them. How did Africans come to adopt Islam? I think we know.
Slavery is terrible, as well as the overt discrimination and forced inequality that followed. At the time, European explorers and conquerors, acting under the Crown, saw the opportunity in purchasing African slaves from Islamic warlords and from African kings. I don't mean for this to "sound racist" just because some actual White Supremacists also make this point.
I may consider deleting this later if some useful discussion convinces me.
@@gg_rider
- *"I don't mean for this to "sound racist" just because some actual White Supremacists also make this point."*
It is true though, regardless of who uses it as an argument. The fact of the matter is, white Europeans didnt just go to Africa and steal black people. They bought them. From other black people. Thats just a fact. A fact that is inconvenient when race ideologues rely on the "only white people can be evil" argument to get their point across. Because if everybody played an equal part in slavery (which they did, and many in Africa and the middle east still do to this day), then pointing fingers solely at white people makes *them* the racists. And thats not a good look, especially when their entire careers are based on it.
What makes you think that Lammy is a, 'millionaire'?
Russell Cronin from 20 years as a politician, many of which as a front bencher earning probably around £80,000-£100,000 per annum with generous expense accounts. On top of that the 4 published books. That’d be my guess
Dawn Foster's 'ok boomer' was the weakest, no-laughs joke ever to grace a stage. Painful to see. Also, she's not a very good public speaker. Lionel Shriver was amazing.
Boony Tooty I think I agree, but I'd prefer to call it intellectually challenged, or of course overwhelmed by the gig - like - erm - if you know what I mean - like.................erm!!!
She looks inbred
Dawn Foster was the weakest, no-laughs debater in this group - she is dreadful. muddled, poorly structured, points made lacking any supporting facts, totally unconvincing.
It's rare to find people on a similar side of the argument being able to articulate themselves without confidence or emotional interference.
Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing.
They do not realise that their racism is identity politics.
They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter".
Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.
Identity politics is politically correct prejudice.
Its also the strategy of most marxists to tear down a sosciety and create cultural revolution. The black guy on the left let that slip himself " tear it all down and start again " . But hes for globalisation. Still marxist or Maoist strategy
Yeah you're right. Like here when Donald Trump played identity politics, disgusting
My father, a pre-boomer, was an able seaman, having run away to sea at 15 because it was his passion. At 20, he lost his leg above the knee and in an era of low technology so his favourite leg was his metal pegleg. Because of his disability he lost his career at sea. But he got on with life, building the 3 houses that we lived in and also a 54ft fishing boat in the back yard. We never thought of him as disabled and neither did he. He never had a wheel chair and never used the crutches in his closet.
His life was not easy and he could have become a victim but he didn't.
There will always be injustice in the world, it is up to us how we respond to it.
Identity politics in a nutshell...
I want us to treat each other like we are all the same. Let me begin by listing all the ways I am different to you.
identity politics is usually in a numbskull - could not be clearer here
It's painful, not to mention ironic, after Shriver's speech - insightful, nuanced, sparkling with wit and individuality - to see Dawn Foster gracelessly expose both the meagreness of her intellect and her inability to define herself as anything other than a white woman with a disability.
Yup. Well said.
you probably missed the part where she was talking about policy expansion. Which speaks more to your intellect than hers.
Succinct comment, hitting the nail right on the head!
Of course Shriver makes the case for a unique human identity as the ideal and the other lady’s argument is noteworthy in its lack of lustre , verve and coherence . But we throw the baby out with the bath water at our peril when that impels you to have me believe in a brave new world of unbiased opportunity and merit that I can’t yet see , taste and feel .
shriver's speech was doctrinaire nonsense.
"A person should not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
-- Martin Luther King Jr.
She was really proud of her “talking about being silenced” talking point. She talked about it a lot. I wonder if she identifies as being marginalized, or dare I say…silenced.
Well she died last year, so I doubt it.
ua-cam.com/video/EmMGT59h4wM/v-deo.html wish I said this
Too her
Maybe this will help. People with real work in the world are silent about their ability to "fit in" or "get authentic". 6 BILLION souls occupy this endangered planet
Who?
To make this clear: Lammy doesn't talk for all us blacks 👀✌🏾
lammy is a racist OVERPAID dodgy subversive parasite who plays to a certain lefty audience. To every Normal intelligent person we can see him coming from a mile away. he needs to be swatted like a commie bug
NORMAL PEOPLE being called popularists what a laugh. lammy wishes he was popular but that's why hes a loser cause he aint popular, because all he has to offer is the racecard bullshit. what a SUBVERSIVE slimy scumbag
Just the majority of us. ✌😜
Also note: Do we call ourselves "blacks" now?
He's full of shit, but he was clearly the best orator of group.
I doubt anyone believes he does. The only people who believe that anyone speaks on behalf of any race, or that any race is anything other than a bunch of completely different people who just share a characteristic, are people like David Lammy :)
Anyone else love how that 12-year-old kid in the audience has more coherent thoughts on identity politics than some of the panel members?
That kid from Turkey was great.
That kid was smarter than 75% of the panel.
Yeah he's way smarter
Gen Z... make me feel that there *is* hope.
This!
The excellence of Asians in learning is rooted in their culture. When I watched the movie, "The Last Samurai", I was stunned by the dedication, focus and hardwork paid to learn to be an expert swordsman. That level of commitment expressed in everything they do result in superior performance interpreted as higher intelligence. It's cultural and any association with biology is only epi-genetical
not true, not everyone can do that even with perfect dedication
@@elizabethbennet4791 what's not true? Not true that it takes dedication to achieve mastery?
Whoever that kid is at the 1 hour mark, deserves a medal. Great question!
So much ad hominem from Dawn Foster. She clearly is clueless about how to put across an effective argument.
Not to be unkind, but she was rather rambling.
Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing.
They do not realise that their racism is identity politics.
They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter".
Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.
@@aem870 8th reposting of this inept response, amazing.
She got to you huh!
@@prybarknives are you going to explain why it's inept please?
It was a bit painful watching the lady in red.
Especially because Lionel’s speech was was so fantastic
Some women make me feel embarrassed to be one.
@@lisamontez9401 dont ever say that, anymore than I should apologize for being a white male. You dont share responsibility for their stupidity, you only speak for yourself :)
@@RastaganTheGreen yeah but she makes women look retarded, unfortunately
@@jesuschristsonofgod9709 so? Do you have to apologize for every idiot man who makes us look retarded?
Listening to her talk had me thinging "what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
“… at that point I looked more like Denzel Washington…“ Methinks the gentleman awfully generous with himself…
"It's about equality, everyone has the same access, but that access could be different based on your identity"
This is another way of saying " we are all equal, but some are more equal than others*
Dawn Foster, walks on stage, thinks "These people are older than me, therefore I'll attack them based on being boomers."
Proceeds with arguments based on Strawmen and anecdotal evidence.
Totally. And she's a boomer herself in the eyes of almost everyone that uses the word..!
@@firerabbit583 BUT WHAT ABOUT HER HIP PURPLE PLATINUM CROWN 👑?!
where was Shiver's "evidence"?
@@jamesdarcy4945 See, also: BLM Riots.
Dumbass.
@@nealorr5086 ua-cam.com/video/YZIIpQ8hQyY/v-deo.html
Group people into their immutable characteristics, then assess the level of attainment for each group, then blame the failure of certain groups on the success of others.
WHO KNEW THAT IDENTITY POLITICS WOULD TEAR SOCIETY APPART!
More importantly, who didn't know?
@@seangawd6830 the ones that know and act like they don't are an old tribe now controlling much of world's wealth and behind the kalergi plan.. they get race realism but use tikkun olam on us
blessing 2 all
@@seangawd6830 start with ...frankfurt... school
They cant hear well in the echo chamber
Politics is now ethnic because traitors balkanised the country by paying for third world colonists to settle in their millions. It's now gendered because subversives slowly destroyed the family and then told neuroticised young women they should compete with their menfolk. It's all just ethno-cultural genocide and radical social engineering playing out over decades. The war criminals and central banking mafia did not facilitate all this radical change for "diversity" and "equality". It's to break the nation down and install a new high-tech slave system. Isn't this stuff obvious by now?
"Identity politics is about equal acces for everyone even it means different acces based on your identity." That second speaker just messed up my brain which was working fine until just now.
I will die before I give an ounce of respect to anyone who *demands* it.
Respect is earned, not given.
You'll die?
The Guardian writer's opening speech is pure obfuscation.
She’s so disinterested in the whole damn thing that she starts texting at 1:27:09
In what way?
@@milton7763 The thrust of her argument is that complaints about identity politics are from (white) boomers, and their opinions don't count.
@@TheDanielLivingston Yes, that was cringeworthy!
@@TheDanielLivingston haha I noticed that too. I would guess she was mindlessly scrolling through her boomery facebook feed
Having a solid definition of what identity politics should have been established before this debate started.
When the young Turkish lad asked about Muslim identity being used to win elections, your point seemed especially poignant. A lot of the questions had nothing to do with the topic.
There are different ideas. Some still think it isw about trying to bring equality whereas it is now supposedly about equity but really about deliberately causing division.
Well thats the crux right there isnt it; EVERYONE have their own idea what the hell the bloody thing means.
A well-defined phenomenon which is ludicrously visible in our society may not require a prior definition.
21 year old here, identity politics is the only way the politicians remain in power instead of getting voted out because we’re too busy at each other’s throats
Trevor Phillips sounds calm, rational and honestly concerned.
David Lammy sounds frustrated, irrational and virtue signalling to the point where he only smells his own farts, telling how ''diverse and unique'' they are.
could have fallen asleep during Lammy's soporific effort, and Dawn Frasers' rambling. Agree that Lionel was the best speaker with the sharpest message by a clear margin
Shriver was brilliant and layered but all she had to be was a black woman of the same generation to immediately find herself espousing a completely different narrative . Not necessarily opposing the motion but just with enough attention paid to race to convince us identity is still of import in our world .
its gender is stupid...Trump 2024!
So glad to have heard Dawn, she perfectly represents the identity politics case; there isn't one!
Freedom of speech at work
She didn't name any particular issues. She spoke only about "certain" things. Why? Because she's got no idea what she talks about.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@this-is-bioman yeah🤣🤣
@@this-is-bioman
Forgive the original inhabitants of Britain for having a leg up on people that migrated there within the last 50 years.
David Lammy completely convinced me that Identity Politics are tearing society apart.
I'm watching this a year after broadcast and how true Lionel shrivers argument as proved to be. And s note for David Lammy. Everything you said proved rather than disproved the point since you were using identity politics to try to make your point.
"My family immigrated here in 1950."
"I am a successful businessman."
"I am the youngest of 10 children."
"I experienced so much racism that I am a wealthy businessman."
"I never considered going back to Africa."
This shit is ridiculous.
He didn't pop out of his Mother's womb a "wealthy businessman". He had to live a few decades before he got there. If he experienced being treated disrespectfully during that time, no amount of success and wealth is going to mitigate that abuse. Get a clue.
@@searchforserenity8058 If racism was so bad, why did he stay?
If it was so bad, how did he get the opportunities?
Sorry, his family migrated to give him better opportunities and he got them. He sure never went back to his native land, did he? Why not? If it's so racist, why did he stay?
@@JaysSavvy This is a bogus argument. Someone who perseveres against unfair circumstances but still manages to achieve some level of success does NOT excuse the abuse in the first place.
@@searchforserenity8058 ah yes. The racism was so bad that he managed to overcome it. And stayed. Just to endure against racism. But definitely didn't go back to his native land, right? Why is that? Oh, right, because HE HAD MORE OPPORTUNITIES IN A WHITE NATION.
It's asinine. He was given more opportunity in a white "racist" land than he would have had in his native land.
Sorry, no. You don't get to flee the oppression of your own people then cry about racism from the people who let you into their society and gave you opportunities to become rich.
@@JaysSavvy Yes, you do. Abuse is abuse. You can't justify it. Just because it wasn't as bad in the UK as it was where he came from, doesn't mean what is happening in the UK is appropriate. Stop making excuses.
Except for Lionel, this is a weak panel.
extremly weak.
I agree with the last statement Lionel. She thought she was going to define ideology but no one else understood the purpose and fired in on their opinion and deep-seated personal belief systems. Not a logical argument as to why being an individual is important and being a member of a group with a simple label is just ignorance perpetuated by a minority of individuals bent on imposing their worldview over your own personal and valued opinion that may contribute to positive change. It's what bullies do in the playground surround themselves with followers that amplify their power its manipulation.
Dawn Foster gives a brilliant performance in how to wash over reality and ensure the narrative is massaged to suit one's own position. Well done.
Wow, Shivers is savage. Way to end this whole debate, that they've completely wasted her time
Right? That hit me pretty hard. She was so disappointed that it devolved so fast and so far away from what it was supposed to be that she would have probably rather watched paint dry. Savage.
Someone had to say it, I’m glad she didn’t hold back. Even the guy who was supposed to be on her side didn’t seem to know whether he was coming or going.
If she wasn’t married I would be
Crushing. Her mind is astounding. What a waste of her time.
@@fsrsaa Now SHE is a woman! I'm crushing on her myself.
Loved her Grauniard writing back in the day, still sharp as a tack 👍
How can the second speaker talk for ten minutes without actually saying anything? That's a skill.
She said boomer to make her point.
Dawn the Sun never rose at all. Perhaps it is global warming but I think not, more likely the Sun was too bored to rise at dawn and I don't blame the Sun.
I've decided not to rise either.
Good luck Dawn I think you'll need it.
Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing.
They do not realise that their racism is identity politics.
They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter".
Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.
@@aem870 Copy and paste
She does write for the Guardian, it's her day job
I can't think of anything more entitled than a person arguing for the benefits of identity politics trying to appropriate the ethnic identity of another peoples who have welcomed you into their society to the point that positions of power and leadership are available.
If I moved to America tomorrow, I would not be Native American. Neither would my children unless their other parent was Native American.
If I moved to Japan tomorrow, I would not be Japanese. Neither would my children unless their other parent was Japanese.
I don't understand how people who push the importance of identity politics don't, or won't acknowledge how narratives like this sounds very much "What's yours is mine, what's mine is mine" and "Rules for thee but not for me" to the general population and thus spurs populism, xenophobia, and racial supremacy movements.
A citizens with equal rights certainly, but let's be respectful and consistent with our narratives of respecting one another's identities.
1st Speaker For (Lionel): Well spoken, articulated, Appeals to logic and reason.
1st Speaker Against (Dawn): Stumbles over her own words, jumps from argument to argument with no point, appeals to emotion rather than logic, comes across as ignorant and judgmental out of the gate.
Me: This is gonna be a tone setter, isn't it?
"Dawn, your chance now to argue against the motion."
*Dawn:* Oh no, I'm going to make an unintelligible, constant repeating fool of myself............."So.....I have a disability............"
Her disability is that she is an ignorant bigot.
"I have a disability and I'm a woman, and so I like identity politics, and if you don't, it's probably cos you're a white boomer". Just ridiculous. And since she loves identity politics so much - I'm a chronically ill younger woman on a disability pension and I still think what she was saying was ridiculous.
Lionel Shriver nailed it when she stated the debate went off the rails. I was looking for a debate on one issue but it delved into other social issues.
life is complex. Did Lionel want to put the debate into box but not like identity politics? :D
@@corpgov Yet, there is a topic. The debate wasn't about general life or philosophy but about identity politics. Hence, identity politics should be discussed. Otherwise, it is just gymnastics for the tongue.
That's what the Left-ish side in many of these debates seems to do. They sprawl and gobble about for any scrap of victim-cred to win the debate (in their minds) by the assertion of this anti-ethos.
But then, it's rare to find somebody standing up for these slyly evil positions who is capable of doing so honestly and willing to try and risk losing when they can play to their base, ignore the logic, and twist the evidence, and pretend they weren't BTFO'D.
That's because these people are incapable of viewing society from a broader perspective, they can only think and talk about themselves - the group is just a smokescreen to cover up their narcissism.
I thought the same thing, the two for the motion were pretty damn on point with their subject and topics they wished to bring up. Dawn, where as I don't doubt her sincerity if her care for the topic, didn't do very well at all. And the last speaker against the motion, (I apologize. the identity politic debate isn't what I typically research or read about or listen to, so the names of the people on stage are beyond my memory) started strong and then kind of flailed around and changed topic near the end. the topic was Identity politics are tearing society apart, not how are other things tearing society apart. I liked him but he lost me as a debate opponent.
"It's always homeowners in their fifties."
How many homeowning students, in their fifties, do you know?
These discussions are so vital and important in a society that is fed content based on what they already agree with by algorithms. Sad that most people who will see this already agree that there needs to be more discussions like this.
Dawn Foster's opening statement felt like she was speaking for an hour and said nothing.
Bot
@@maryamkim1281 That's a bingo!!
@@SereneBobcat She really didn't say anything. Her entire thing was a rambling disjointed "some things do some things to some people" but never any specifics. I'm sorry, but on a purely crafting an argument level she wouldn't have got a passing grade as an undergrad from any professor worth their salt. I kinda feel bad for her side of the argument and for her employer, she didn't represent her ideas very well. I'd rather have had someone other than her as their other speaker just so that I could actually hear a good, well crafted argument (I assume there is one out there, but she didn't give it). I haven't read her writings, maybe she's better in that format.
Miles Dyson cuz u didnt like what she said lol
It was so bad I was cringeing. Can she really be a journalist? I've never read her stuff, but she seems unable to craft a coherent argument.
So David thinks silencing voices at Universities is OK because his ancestors were silenced. Just spectacular logic. Surely this skin deep reasoning isn't taken seriously. Besides Lionel Shriver this is just a London bubble conversation.
They dont want Equality, they just want Power.
Racists or right-wingers act like identity politics is a new thing.
They do not realise that their racism is identity politics.
They think that identity politics is simply saying "black lives matter".
Pulling down the statue of a slave trader is what they complain against.
@@aem870 you lack brain cells
@@aem870 You people act like only white people can be racist.
@@aem870 you think this response so eloquent, it needs cut/pasted up multiple times, eh?
Don't these people know what identity politics accomplished in Russia, China and Germany. Just to name a few.
Lionel won this entire debate flawlessly.
Lionel Shriver wow! I've never heard of this woman but my gosh was she good here.
Yeah, I'm looking for her books now. Absolutely brilliant.
lionel is ALWAYS brilliant
Her novel 'We Need to Talk About Kevin' was superb. I discovered it when i researched her on the back of watching her being interviewed on youtube.
Never heard of Dawn Foster before, and without bias on the actual topic I have to say she seemed exceptionally unprepared here - really this a very disappointing defence, repetitive, irrelevant points which were badly delivered SMH
Yes, that’s how they argue and play the game on racism and identity politics ... no research... no deeper knowledge... no intellectual and scientific explanations of what are they debating about... it’s just generalization and and they alway inject the victimhood syndrome.
It was a very anecdotal opening statement.
how is she qualified to be on that stage?? without using identity points? EXACTLY
"This is masochism and it's being sold to you by a sadist!"