"God is not outside of time; he transcends it." Thank you, Dr. Hart. That is the single best explanation and clarification of the concept that I have ever heard.
To Kuhn's question trying to understand what is meant by "partaking of the Divine nature", there's a fairly common metaphor in Eastern Orthodoxy used to elucidate it. It shouldn't be considered a definitive "answer", but it goes some way in clearing up the ambiguity. If the blade of a sword is placed in a fire for a long time, it eventually gets imbued with the fire's qualities and begins to glow with heat and light. It is still a sword; it hasn't *become* fire. But it has partaken of its nature. So it is, metaphorically, with what the Orthodox mean by "deification". This is in sharp distinction to Mormons, whose notion of human deification often gets erroneously compared to Eastern Orthodoxy's.
Paul doesn't talk about cosmic salvation in the terms of 21st century people because paul and the others believed in a domed earth, not an infinite space slash heliocentric model.
There's an interesting book that expounds a view that says Johnathan Edwards had a "Reformed Theosis". It's an academic read, but good! So, even the most extreme of protestants (Calvinism) have this idea.
Christian Guild , yes, please tell us which book. I'm a conservative Presbyterian, and we talk about this, but I don't know precisely which book to read.
BRWaldo97 The book is, "Johnathan Edwards's Theology: a Reinterpretation" (2012) by Kyle C. Strobel. He also released an article in 2016 titled, "Jonathan Edwards's Reformed Doctrine of Theosis".
Bob Taylor The book is, "Johnathan Edwards's Theology: a Reinterpretation" (2012) by Kyle C. Strobel. He also released an article in 2016 titled, "Jonathan Edwards's Reformed Doctrine of Theosis".
I read a book on theosis and Luther years ago called One with God by Veli-Matti Karkkainen who makes the strong case that Luther saw theosis as central in his own theology.
That would be an infantile picture of heaven, more akin to a Sunday School picture book, then a mature and biblical theology. It’s not literally playing a harp on the clouds. It’s a renewed cosmos with the beatific vision.
@@tedgrant2 I think when you read the Scriptures, the entire theme is that God wants to restore everything in creation, which will entail God “wiping away every tear.” And “being all in all.” You may want to watch the Bible Projects video on Heaven, and they go into this Restoration view of Heaven as opposed to clouds with Harp view.
@@bman5257 Perhaps he should have put more effort into his original design. Almost immediately after the creation, the world was broken. A good designer would have considered, "What could go wrong ?"
I am still looking for a satisfactory explanation why this cosmos has to be redempted and transformed into a newJerusalem although the whole of creation is god's deed. Why has this world fallen? All I can see from history that reality has always been life living at the expence of other life. In German we say "fressen und gefressen werden" which means "to devour and being devoured". This perception certainlly doesn`t entail the whole reality but a very large part 'of it. To me that's a mystery that christianity has never been able to solve.
I agree. Death has always been present and all of life seems predicated on surviving at the expense of other life, like you say. It makes no sense that at one time death came into the world through one transgression. That's what I think, at least.
T'was not always thus - Genesis 1 v 28,29. Bishop Barron gives as good an explanation of the need for redemption here: ua-cam.com/video/Fdmsnbz1-EE/v-deo.html
I am not a scholar, but This is easily answered in the book of Genesis. Disobedience to the commandant of the creator led to the creation being cursed and in need of redemption from that curse. Basically, all of creation was taken captive by the enemy. That left us and the creation in need of rescue.
"God is not outside of time; he transcends it." Thank you, Dr. Hart. That is the single best explanation and clarification of the concept that I have ever heard.
Agreed!
" Cosmic salvation" sounds so encouraging !
Thank you for making these Closer to Truth interviews with David Hart available on UA-cam.
To Kuhn's question trying to understand what is meant by "partaking of the Divine nature", there's a fairly common metaphor in Eastern Orthodoxy used to elucidate it. It shouldn't be considered a definitive "answer", but it goes some way in clearing up the ambiguity. If the blade of a sword is placed in a fire for a long time, it eventually gets imbued with the fire's qualities and begins to glow with heat and light. It is still a sword; it hasn't *become* fire. But it has partaken of its nature. So it is, metaphorically, with what the Orthodox mean by "deification". This is in sharp distinction to Mormons, whose notion of human deification often gets erroneously compared to Eastern Orthodoxy's.
That is cool
Maximus the Confessor is his 2nd favourite figure in presumably the Church fathers? Anyone know the 1st?
Nevermind he says it later on
Gregory of Nyssa.
Paul doesn't talk about cosmic salvation in the terms of 21st century people because paul and the others believed in a domed earth, not an infinite space slash heliocentric model.
There's an interesting book that expounds a view that says Johnathan Edwards had a "Reformed Theosis". It's an academic read, but good! So, even the most extreme of protestants (Calvinism) have this idea.
Christian Guild , yes, please tell us which book. I'm a conservative Presbyterian, and we talk about this, but I don't know precisely which book to read.
BRWaldo97 The book is, "Johnathan Edwards's Theology: a Reinterpretation" (2012) by Kyle C. Strobel. He also released an article in 2016 titled, "Jonathan Edwards's Reformed Doctrine of Theosis".
Bob Taylor The book is, "Johnathan Edwards's Theology: a Reinterpretation" (2012) by Kyle C. Strobel. He also released an article in 2016 titled, "Jonathan Edwards's Reformed Doctrine of Theosis".
I read a book on theosis and Luther years ago called One with God by Veli-Matti Karkkainen who makes the strong case that Luther saw theosis as central in his own theology.
@@bobtaylor170 'Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God' by Brian Zahnd is a book that is worth reading IMO.
Who is interviewing him? It looks like Bob Balaban, but I'd be surprised if it were.
Robert Lawrence Kuhn.
Can anybody describe a typical day in Heaven ?
No, because Heaven is completely boring.
No food, no fun, no problems, nothing.
That would be an infantile picture of heaven, more akin to a Sunday School picture book, then a mature and biblical theology. It’s not literally playing a harp on the clouds. It’s a renewed cosmos with the beatific vision.
@@bman5257
And how did you come by this information ?
@@tedgrant2 I think when you read the Scriptures, the entire theme is that God wants to restore everything in creation, which will entail God “wiping away every tear.” And “being all in all.” You may want to watch the Bible Projects video on Heaven, and they go into this Restoration view of Heaven as opposed to clouds with Harp view.
@@tedgrant2 ua-cam.com/video/Zy2AQlK6C5k/v-deo.htmlsi=KdAAOkXw2DY9qskz
@@bman5257
Perhaps he should have put more effort into his original design.
Almost immediately after the creation, the world was broken.
A good designer would have considered, "What could go wrong ?"
I am still looking for a satisfactory explanation why this cosmos has to be redempted and transformed into a newJerusalem although the whole of creation is god's deed. Why has this world fallen? All I can see from history that reality has always been life living at the expence of other life. In German we say "fressen und gefressen werden" which means "to devour and being devoured". This perception certainlly doesn`t entail the whole reality but a very large part 'of it. To me that's a mystery that christianity has never been able to solve.
Pius Hälg Yea, like survival of the fittest. That seems to be down through the ages has occurred
I agree. Death has always been present and all of life seems predicated on surviving at the expense of other life, like you say. It makes no sense that at one time death came into the world through one transgression. That's what I think, at least.
T'was not always thus - Genesis 1 v 28,29.
Bishop Barron gives as good an explanation of the need for redemption here:
ua-cam.com/video/Fdmsnbz1-EE/v-deo.html
Study the doctrine of the Fall.
I am not a scholar, but This is easily answered in the book of Genesis. Disobedience to the commandant of the creator led to the creation being cursed and in need of redemption from that curse. Basically, all of creation was taken captive by the enemy. That left us and the creation in need of rescue.