Excellent. Thank you for sharing your observations. I’ll be looking to replace my old Sovtek 300B at some point with something having more detail and refinement. Vintage Philips 6SN7 WGTA have served me well. I believe they were designed for military gear back in the day. 💜
It's so nice that you can get good-sounding new production tubes for that beautiful 300b amp of yours. I am 56 and have never heard a tube speaker amp (probably never will). I have an OTL tube headphone amp and a hybrid headphone amps and I love them but unfortunately no budget for a tube speaker amp (which would also require me to buy a new pair of higher efficiency speakers)
You know, I have bought tube gear quite cheaply at yard sales, a certain Pioneer SX-34 comes to mind I paid $5 for. When I was younger I lived next door to an affluent community that held annual "spring cleanups". There I scored a pair of Dynaco 60s and a pair of Mcintosh mc60s, out of the refuse (garbage) placed curbside. Any old tube console is a good place to start, many needing simple capacitor replacements and/or a tube or two, last one of those I bought cost me $15.
I would almost bet you have heard a tube set-up, but just didn't realize it. I'm a bit older than you, but I remember an upright console radio/record player my parents had, a Stromberg-Carlson, all tube. The sweet spot for stereo tube consoles seems to be a short time between about 1962 and about 1969. By 1969 I think the transistor had taken over, and by about 1972 the idea of a "console stereo" was over. I remember when the assembly line for Westinghouse consoles was shut down, everybody simply sent home, and everything, and I mean everything, pitched in the garbage.
Replacing my Mullard EL34s on my R8 with Gold Lion KT88s. I was considering the Horizon tubes but did not know enough about them. I will be looking forward to your R8 mods and tube rolls.
I had a similar experience with the KT88s, Stephe. Bass response was better and they had a bit more dynamics that what I was using previously (new prod Mullards).
I run the Sylvania tubes, and they are really nice. I also have some nos Marshall and RCA tubes that are also good with the bottom D gather. I might have to try the new tubes, thanks for sharing.
Yes, this is my DIY 300B. I sell a EL34/5751 amp I have featured as a build series, a "color" pre-amp and a tube phono stage. email for more info if you are interested.
The Sylvania are also my go-to 6sn7 as well. The loctal version, the 7n7, in the tall bottle are identical tubes. You need an adapter but even with those they are an incredible deal. If you can use 12v tubes, the 14n7 is even better.
Hello Steffie, Appreciate the huge contribution you make to uplift the knowledge of many many followers of your channel. Iam happy to say that I have done a few mods through a techie as suggested by you on my Reisong Bouuyoyrange A50 iii amplifier and it sounds much better. Currently I have EH 6SN7 tubes as drivers. Can I just drop in the CV 181 in my amplifier, or have I got to do any more mods?
I spent the last few hours listening to my first tube device. Finally. It's just an Xduoo but my gosh I get it! But rolling tubes in that will be quite a challenge with its 6n2 pre and 6n5p buffer tubes.. I read a comment that 5751's (in his words the better 12ax7's) are a good substitute for the 6n2 if adapted. Do you or you guys in the comments are aware of like a cheat sheet showing which tubes can be replaced/adapted with what? Maybe I also find a replacement for the buffer tube but that _should_ make less of a difference right?
A 6N2 is a 6ax7 (you can rewire the tube socket to take a 12ax7, or buy an adapter) otherwise your choices are 2, another Chinese 6N2, or a Russian JSC Voskhod 6N2P-EB / 6AX7. I run a pair of Russian 6ax7s in my A-10 and they sound fine. The 6n5p is a 6as7g. I have not encountered these before, but I see a Russian 6h13c that is supposed to be an expensive equivalent, and a cheaper 6080 which is a military grade 6AS7G. I fully admit to an aversion (phobia?) about Chinese tubes. Every one I have encountered in a Chinese amplifier ended up in the garbage in short order. I have not encountered a "cheat sheet" as such, I just dig around a bit. Every tube sounds a bit different because the different manufacturers make them differently, some are protected by patent.
@@junkmangeorge6363Thank you! I'll try some options you suggested (also the 5751 the other person mentioned). Starting with the pre tube and maybe follow up with the 6n5p one day.
@@Nearest_Neighbor Try the Russian tube first, they are cheap and a direct plug in. Then if you like, try an adapter, (or crack the case and rewire the tube socket) and try the vast quantity of different 12ax7 tubes. In those I prefer a E83CC.
It is very good news that new stock is starting to catch up with NOS. I hope there will be some competition to PS Vane soon for this tube, like JJ that is the most down to earth tube manufacturer in business today. One thing that puzzles me, a CV181 with the heater current of the 6SN7? Is that not a 6SN7 in reality? To me, heater current is one of the most primary parameters that defines a tube.
Stephe, great short comparison without Blabla 👍🏻 Did you ever heard LinLai E-6SN7s or LinLai 300B-L? I read that LinLai is also a split off Psvane, Shuguang….This Chinese tube market is very obscure.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Thanks for replying. I feel the midrange is muddy and not distinct or detailed (no life) especially on the human voice and some string instruments do not sound natural. Someone suggested the 300b to replace the PV 6SN7. Are they direct replacements or do I need to have the amp adjusted/modified. Any suggestions ? Thanks
well you can't put a 300B tube in that amp so not sure who told you that. It sounds like maybe this Horizon tube would be a good fit for the 6SN7 position? That box got pretty bad reviews from people who actually measured the output, and hyped up by influencers...
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Thanks for saving me time, effort and money! I really like the sound of tubes, but know of their workings.Is there any way to improve the Darkvoice and be done by a novice that you can recommend? Thanks
Sounds like it is a great tube, but I looked it up on Amazon and they want $108 for two...OOOOF! That's a bit much! I definitely will be following along with the KT-88 amp construction, for sure!
I'm guessing from this question you didn't watch the video? And they were drop shipped from Amazon, so unless Amazon employees are cherry picking tubes for them, I don't think that is happening.
Love to hear your experience with them, email me at stephe@skunkiedesigns.com Honestly those two reviews sound so similar (I tap the table), same brand of gear etc. make me wonder about them but who really knows.
I know these are just your impressions but we can't ignore the likelihood that there are audible differences introduced by normal variations in the construction of tubes in the same production line. You pointed out a more extreme example of this variation in your unhappy experiences with KT120 tubes. Part of the fun from tube rolling is that it is essentially a form of lucky dip game! You buy a tube or set of tubes from a supplier picked at random and hope your samples are sonically superior to another sample you might have received. However, any experience in statistics teaches us we shouldn't assume those samples are a good representation of all the tubes coming off the production line, even if they meet manufacturers' (minimum) quality control standards. Hell, tube rolling might be less fun if all the tubes from a given production line were exactly the same as then we would lose the excitement of the lucky dip! Anyway, all this means that opposing views about tubes from the same or different production lines could be a statistically valid outcome, It also means that us buyers should be cautious about reviews of tubes sent to reviewers as they could be there 'best' examples.
The experience with the KT120 wasn't related to how they sound, it was a change in manufacturing affected the thermal management. I have two sets of most of these other tubes and like all the tall bottle Sylvania tubes sound the same. All these 6H8C tubes I have, and I have like a dozen of them now, all sound the same. So far the people emailing and commenting on these Horizon tubes have echo'd my findings, again feel free to personally ignore them if you believe differently.
I'm not sure what I can learn from your response. I want to get beyond having to believe in something to be true! Are you suggesting that it is your experience that any variations in the construction of a line of tubes from a manufacturer may affect thermal performance but, barring that, it doesn't (or shouldn't) have any effect on their sound signature? Presumably, it is a given that the tubes are reasonably well matched or are you saying the variations in operating values from the datasheet are not significant enough to make a difference to the sound signature? If it isn't this, then can you please tell me what might be causing audible differences in the sound signature of the tubes made by different manufacturers to the same specification?
That single issue with those KT120 tubes was a thermal issue, not a sonic one and was an actual change in production. Interestingly, the tube with the problematic thermal design/getter change sound identical to the "good" design tubes. They just can't reject the heat created from higher idle bias points. The rest of the tube design and construction remained the same, so I wouldn't expect their sound to change. They simply started welding the getter saucer in a different spot for production line reasons. It wasn't a "normal variation", they literally changed where they welded this saucer inside the tube, which resulted in the getter material being sprayed on a different part of the glass. Some amps are more sensitive to tube changes, even among the same brand/type, but that points to the amp running the tubes in the knee of the plate curve. What I believe changes the sound between brands is related to: Size and positioning of the elements, some tubes have larger plates, the grids are closer to the cathode, maybe have mesh plates etc. Second is the materials used for these elements, metals used, coating on them etc. Third is the the bottle size and shape may have an impact, there are all sorts of variation on say a 6SN7 tube, short bottle, tall bottle etc. that are are supposed to be electrically the same.
Hi. The issue encountered by these Amazon customers might be due to challenges during transportation, such as packaging or handling during transit (whether by truck, ship, or during loading and unloading). Moving forward, we will implement even more rigorous checks before shipping to ensure product quality. This is also why we have chosen to sell officially on Amazon, as it provides a convenient and hassle-free return or exchange process in case any issues arise.
Devil's advocate here..................... did they bother to fix the length of the index pin, on the bottom of the tube, making tube insertion into the socket easier? Every Psvane tube I have encountered is a little short in this regard making tube insertion, in the proper orientation, (which should be automatic with the proper length of the index pin) something you really have to pay attention to.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics The original intent of the index key was: if you found yourself in a limited vision situation (myself most days?) you could place the tube over the socket, on the index key, and spin the tube until the index lined up, and the tube dropped into place. Mostly, tube manufacturers "get it" Psvane does not, but one can hope.
I can say this new "horizon" line of 8 pins tubes, the index peg is visibly below the top of the other pins, the male key extends to the end of the peg (I just went and looked) and at least with the Belton sockets I use, it's very obvious when the index peg is aligned.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
It is nice to hear your positive views on tubes that are in production now. Thank you
All questions answered. Thanks for the video again Stephe. I will be on a look out on how to get a pair in my neck of the woods.
Nice review. Useful!
Love to see you do a analysis of the Dynaco ST-70 and a Dynaco Pre.
All the best!
Great video on an interesting topic, thank you for taking the time to make it.
Excellent. Thank you for sharing your observations. I’ll be looking to replace my old Sovtek 300B at some point with something having more detail and refinement. Vintage Philips 6SN7 WGTA have served me well. I believe they were designed for military gear back in the day. 💜
It's so nice that you can get good-sounding new production tubes for that beautiful 300b amp of yours. I am 56 and have never heard a tube speaker amp (probably never will). I have an OTL tube headphone amp and a hybrid headphone amps and I love them but unfortunately no budget for a tube speaker amp (which would also require me to buy a new pair of higher efficiency speakers)
You know, I have bought tube gear quite cheaply at yard sales, a certain Pioneer SX-34 comes to mind I paid $5 for. When I was younger I lived next door to an affluent community that held annual "spring cleanups". There I scored a pair of Dynaco 60s and a pair of Mcintosh mc60s, out of the refuse (garbage) placed curbside. Any old tube console is a good place to start, many needing simple capacitor replacements and/or a tube or two, last one of those I bought cost me $15.
I would almost bet you have heard a tube set-up, but just didn't realize it. I'm a bit older than you, but I remember an upright console radio/record player my parents had, a Stromberg-Carlson, all tube. The sweet spot for stereo tube consoles seems to be a short time between about 1962 and about 1969. By 1969 I think the transistor had taken over, and by about 1972 the idea of a "console stereo" was over. I remember when the assembly line for Westinghouse consoles was shut down, everybody simply sent home, and everything, and I mean everything, pitched in the garbage.
Replacing my Mullard EL34s on my R8 with Gold Lion KT88s. I was considering the Horizon tubes but did not know enough about them.
I will be looking forward to your R8 mods and tube rolls.
I had a similar experience with the KT88s, Stephe. Bass response was better and they had a bit more dynamics that what I was using previously (new prod Mullards).
This is clearly the "house sound" of these tubes. I'm finding mixing some of these with other tubes gives interesting combinations of sound/clarity.
I run the Sylvania tubes, and they are really nice. I also have some nos Marshall and RCA tubes that are also good with the bottom D gather. I might have to try the new tubes, thanks for sharing.
They have a crisp sound that works well with many types of music.
Wonderful review, Steph! Your observations on the sonic signatures are spot on. BTW, love the amp. Did you build it? Do you sell amps?
Yes, this is my DIY 300B. I sell a EL34/5751 amp I have featured as a build series, a "color" pre-amp and a tube phono stage. email for more info if you are interested.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Thank you kindly. I’ll look more into it.👍🏼
The Sylvania are also my go-to 6sn7 as well. The loctal version, the 7n7, in the tall bottle are identical tubes. You need an adapter but even with those they are an incredible deal. If you can use 12v tubes, the 14n7 is even better.
Yes, I am the first good morning nice to watch with my coffee or in this case with my Red Bull❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Good morning!
As english is not my mothertongue, I am constantly learning. Interesting to learn, that shrill is equal to our word describing same phenomenon.
Hello Steffie, Appreciate the huge contribution you make to uplift the knowledge of many many followers of your channel.
Iam happy to say that I have done a few mods through a techie as suggested by you on my Reisong Bouuyoyrange A50 iii amplifier and it sounds much better.
Currently I have EH 6SN7 tubes as drivers. Can I just drop in the CV 181 in my amplifier, or have I got to do any more mods?
Just drop it in.
Thank you!
I spent the last few hours listening to my first tube device. Finally. It's just an Xduoo but my gosh I get it! But rolling tubes in that will be quite a challenge with its 6n2 pre and 6n5p buffer tubes..
I read a comment that 5751's (in his words the better 12ax7's) are a good substitute for the 6n2 if adapted.
Do you or you guys in the comments are aware of like a cheat sheet showing which tubes can be replaced/adapted with what?
Maybe I also find a replacement for the buffer tube but that _should_ make less of a difference right?
Should and will aren't always the same thing :)
A 6N2 is a 6ax7 (you can rewire the tube socket to take a 12ax7, or buy an adapter) otherwise your choices are 2, another Chinese 6N2, or a Russian JSC Voskhod 6N2P-EB / 6AX7. I run a pair of Russian 6ax7s in my A-10 and they sound fine.
The 6n5p is a 6as7g. I have not encountered these before, but I see a Russian 6h13c that is supposed to be an expensive equivalent, and a cheaper 6080 which is a military grade 6AS7G.
I fully admit to an aversion (phobia?) about Chinese tubes. Every one I have encountered in a Chinese amplifier ended up in the garbage in short order.
I have not encountered a "cheat sheet" as such, I just dig around a bit. Every tube sounds a bit different because the different manufacturers make them differently, some are protected by patent.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronicsOh yeah absolutely. But changing the pre tube often gives a more significant change, am I right about that?
@@junkmangeorge6363Thank you! I'll try some options you suggested (also the 5751 the other person mentioned). Starting with the pre tube and maybe follow up with the 6n5p one day.
@@Nearest_Neighbor Try the Russian tube first, they are cheap and a direct plug in. Then if you like, try an adapter, (or crack the case and rewire the tube socket) and try the vast quantity of different 12ax7 tubes. In those I prefer a E83CC.
It is very good news that new stock is starting to catch up with NOS. I hope there will be some competition to PS Vane soon for this tube, like JJ that is the most down to earth tube manufacturer in business today. One thing that puzzles me, a CV181 with the heater current of the 6SN7? Is that not a 6SN7 in reality? To me, heater current is one of the most primary parameters that defines a tube.
Yup, it's likely a 6SN7 in a ST shape bottle.
So you use the 300B amp for the full spectrum or do you have another amp for the bass?
Full spectrum.
Stephe, great short comparison without Blabla 👍🏻
Did you ever heard LinLai E-6SN7s or LinLai 300B-L? I read that LinLai is also a split off Psvane, Shuguang….This Chinese tube market is very obscure.
Not yet!
I have a Dark Voice Headphone amp using a 6SN7 could you suggest a brand or substitute as a replacement or improvement! Really enjoy you channel!
What do you feel might be lacking? Honestly tube rolling is a very personal thing and the results vary with the device/speaker/preference.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Thanks for replying. I feel the midrange is muddy and not distinct or detailed (no life) especially on the human voice and some string instruments do not sound natural. Someone suggested the 300b to replace the PV 6SN7. Are they direct replacements or do I need to have the amp adjusted/modified. Any suggestions ? Thanks
well you can't put a 300B tube in that amp so not sure who told you that. It sounds like maybe this Horizon tube would be a good fit for the 6SN7 position? That box got pretty bad reviews from people who actually measured the output, and hyped up by influencers...
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics Thanks for saving me time, effort and money! I really like the sound of tubes, but know of their workings.Is there any way to improve the Darkvoice and be done by a novice that you can recommend? Thanks
Someone offered to send me one, but right now I am kinda burned out of re-engineering these cheap made in China tube products.
Sounds like it is a great tube, but I looked it up on Amazon and they want $108 for two...OOOOF! That's a bit much! I definitely will be following along with the KT-88 amp construction, for sure!
The 2 reviews on Amazon say these are extremely microphonic. Did they send you cherry picked samples or did you buy them yourself anonymously? Thanks
I'm guessing from this question you didn't watch the video? And they were drop shipped from Amazon, so unless Amazon employees are cherry picking tubes for them, I don't think that is happening.
Love to hear your experience with them, email me at stephe@skunkiedesigns.com Honestly those two reviews sound so similar (I tap the table), same brand of gear etc. make me wonder about them but who really knows.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics If I try them I will let you know. Thanks! At least they can be returned, only lose shipping fee.
Not even that if they are defective.
I know these are just your impressions but we can't ignore the likelihood that there are audible differences introduced by normal variations in the construction of tubes in the same production line. You pointed out a more extreme example of this variation in your unhappy experiences with KT120 tubes.
Part of the fun from tube rolling is that it is essentially a form of lucky dip game! You buy a tube or set of tubes from a supplier picked at random and hope your samples are sonically superior to another sample you might have received. However, any experience in statistics teaches us we shouldn't assume those samples are a good representation of all the tubes coming off the production line, even if they meet manufacturers' (minimum) quality control standards.
Hell, tube rolling might be less fun if all the tubes from a given production line were exactly the same as then we would lose the excitement of the lucky dip!
Anyway, all this means that opposing views about tubes from the same or different production lines could be a statistically valid outcome, It also means that us buyers should be cautious about reviews of tubes sent to reviewers as they could be there 'best' examples.
The experience with the KT120 wasn't related to how they sound, it was a change in manufacturing affected the thermal management. I have two sets of most of these other tubes and like all the tall bottle Sylvania tubes sound the same. All these 6H8C tubes I have, and I have like a dozen of them now, all sound the same.
So far the people emailing and commenting on these Horizon tubes have echo'd my findings, again feel free to personally ignore them if you believe differently.
I'm not sure what I can learn from your response. I want to get beyond having to believe in something to be true! Are you suggesting that it is your experience that any variations in the construction of a line of tubes from a manufacturer may affect thermal performance but, barring that, it doesn't (or shouldn't) have any effect on their sound signature? Presumably, it is a given that the tubes are reasonably well matched or are you saying the variations in operating values from the datasheet are not significant enough to make a difference to the sound signature? If it isn't this, then can you please tell me what might be causing audible differences in the sound signature of the tubes made by different manufacturers to the same specification?
That single issue with those KT120 tubes was a thermal issue, not a sonic one and was an actual change in production. Interestingly, the tube with the problematic thermal design/getter change sound identical to the "good" design tubes. They just can't reject the heat created from higher idle bias points. The rest of the tube design and construction remained the same, so I wouldn't expect their sound to change. They simply started welding the getter saucer in a different spot for production line reasons. It wasn't a "normal variation", they literally changed where they welded this saucer inside the tube, which resulted in the getter material being sprayed on a different part of the glass.
Some amps are more sensitive to tube changes, even among the same brand/type, but that points to the amp running the tubes in the knee of the plate curve. What I believe changes the sound between brands is related to: Size and positioning of the elements, some tubes have larger plates, the grids are closer to the cathode, maybe have mesh plates etc. Second is the materials used for these elements, metals used, coating on them etc. Third is the the bottle size and shape may have an impact, there are all sorts of variation on say a 6SN7 tube, short bottle, tall bottle etc. that are are supposed to be electrically the same.
I have just noticed that two reviewers on Amazon had to return the Horizon CV181 tubes because they were so microphonic. Not a good start.
Mine are fine but pre-amp tubes can be microphonic.
Hi. The issue encountered by these Amazon customers might be due to challenges during transportation, such as packaging or handling during transit (whether by truck, ship, or during loading and unloading). Moving forward, we will implement even more rigorous checks before shipping to ensure product quality.
This is also why we have chosen to sell officially on Amazon, as it provides a convenient and hassle-free return or exchange process in case any issues arise.
Sylvania made JAN (Joint Army-Navy) 6SN7's during WWII. NOS will set you back over $150/tube.
And this is just gonna get worse!
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics EPay showed later NOS Sylvania 6SN7's in the $55-60/tube range.
LianLai 6sn7 or Ruskie 1578
Use your affiliate link.
Price gouging a. Holes. I Got 200 old stk. Pulls. 90 # test NOS. Sylvania. Top getter
Devil's advocate here..................... did they bother to fix the length of the index pin, on the bottom of the tube, making tube insertion into the socket easier? Every Psvane tube I have encountered is a little short in this regard making tube insertion, in the proper orientation, (which should be automatic with the proper length of the index pin) something you really have to pay attention to.
It looks normal to me, I haven't used many of their previous 8 pin tubes so not sure if they changed or not.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics The original intent of the index key was: if you found yourself in a limited vision situation (myself most days?) you could place the tube over the socket, on the index key, and spin the tube until the index lined up, and the tube dropped into place. Mostly, tube manufacturers "get it" Psvane does not, but one can hope.
I can say this new "horizon" line of 8 pins tubes, the index peg is visibly below the top of the other pins, the male key extends to the end of the peg (I just went and looked) and at least with the Belton sockets I use, it's very obvious when the index peg is aligned.