What Makes a Video Game 'Rogue-Lite'??
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- Опубліковано 26 тра 2024
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I like to think that Garnt brain has been melted by gacha games that are like he said "everyone having same experience" where he can't have fun on randomised game
yea not gonna lie that was an L take from Garnt. Rouge-likes are fun because every run is different and its fun to experiment with different builds to reach the end goal.
Funniest thing about it is that many gachas have roguelite modes in them (Simulated Universe in Star Rail for example)
Rogue -like is derived from the 1980 game Rogue. Same with the term "Souls-like", "-Like" means "like this game"
I was literally screaming that at my screen!!! Thank you for saying something 😂😂
Metroidvania is literally a mishmash word of two games and it is still the proper term for the genre.
And before the term "First-Person Shooter" became a thing, people were calling games that came after Doom 1 "Doom-clones".
I don’t know if Totalbiscuit coined the “lite” term, but that’s the first place I remember hearing it
Roguelite: you can unlock shits whenever you died
Roguelike: you just fucking died and do it again
connor is one of the few people who get rougelike and rougelite right
im so proud
Its randomly generated.
Ew... - Garnt
Gacha is randomly generated loot.
Omg yas - Garnt
for garnt's argument about everyone knowing what it means to beat dark souls. that doesn't really work, cuz most rogue-like and rogue-lites typically have an end goal, with roughly the same threats just arranged differently. not to mention, just like many rogue-likes and lites. in dark souls you can customize your builds. in hades, you can customize zagreus with specific trinkets, weapons, upgrades, etc. not to mention the boons you get for each run.
Also Dark Souls still has RNG in what bullshit the boss will pull.
Its the same situation as metroidvanias (mertroid + castlevania). But for 80's "rogue" game.
Truly all game terminology is just "ya its like that other game init?"
This is why souls-like became a thing.
dragon questlikes, doomlikes, mariolikes, m64likes, street fighter likes
@@erhanjpg1467 Those don't sound as good
@@erhanjpg1467don't forget what we used to say instead of -like, the clone. Doom clone, Street Fighter clone, Mortal Kombat clone... Until we realized that "clone" wasn't accurate nor respectful to game devs that tried to innovate on top of a popular genre. Ahoy (@XboxAhoy) recently did a video essay on what genre Doom really is, and mentioned clones in it as well.
Probably the most based Connor has ever been
I mean Garnt is an anime watcher and connor play games so they gonna have a polar opposite opinion.
And joey just neither of them
why does Garnt try to associate games he likes with other games? Like yeah bro its not the same game hence a different fun.
There is a AAA Rogue Like, you even looked at it at the monitor, Returnal.
I think this game might be sex
I remember TotalBiscuit was big on pushing proper distinction between rogue-likes and rogue-lites, and in general to preserve better expression in discourse about games, because once a word can mean pretty much anything, it loses its meaning.
I'm bookmarking this just so I can always have a reference for whatever the hell rogue-lite is.
Rougelike is a style of rpg that typically has procedurally generated levels, turn-based game-play, grid-based movement, and permanent death of the player character (wiki Rougelike). Rouge-lite takes the core concept of 1 life (permadeath or no save) and procedurally generated game-play, and adds it to another type of game (cards = slay the spire, top-down adventure = binding of Issac, isometric action-rpg = hades, etc.). The terms rougelike and rouge-lite are used interchangeably, generally, but typically refer to the fact that the game is made to be played through repetitively with death/loss as a core part of game-play loop.
The game 'Rouge' (1980) was the first to have this style of game-play loop and was ubiquitous enough that it got to name the subgenre it created (hence Rougelike).
Rogue: hard game from '80s, randomized elements, reset after death
Rogue-like: games similar to Rogue
Rogue-lite: similar to above but you get stronger after each run so you have a chance at beating the game
@@m_6866Rouge is a red powdered cosmetic actually
So just out of curiosity is “have a nice death” and “enter the gungeon” a rogue like or a rogue lite
idk about "have a nice death" but enter the gungeon is a roguelike, it's permadeath and you don't keep anything to permanently make you stronger between runs, you always start with the same equipment depending on your character. Enter the gungeon does have currency you keep over runs but that doesn't make you stronger, it just adds more to what you can find in the gungeon, it's not necessarily better or guaranteed to find it. I guess it technically is a roguelite, however someone looking to play a roguelite would be very disappointed in Enter the gungeons progression, so its more of a roguelike where progression is very limited
Random generation needs to have really good gameplay, since it can't compensate with a well designed map.
AAA Rogue-like
Returnal
very suprised nobody said Binding of Isaac
Binding of Isaac remains my go to when I'm in the mood for the genre.
Well, there is a AAA roguelite and it is the God of War Ragnarök: Valhalla dlc, which is also free for game owners, so if you want a taste of AAA roguelites, there ya go.
There is also Prey's DLC "Mooncrash" and the game Returnal.
There is a roguelite mode in TLOU2 as well
i would get it but i lost my disc copy of GoW ragnarok :( I think i left it at my old apartment
Does Pokemon Mystery Dungeon count?
The point of procedural generation in rogue likes and lethal company is not only to give more content and reason to play. I would argue the biggest reason is to not allow the player to optimise the fun out of the game. Such as never getting lost in lethal company (creating iconic moments) or memorising/following a guide in a rogue like to easily beat it, randomisation forces you to be good at it.
me watching Garnt ask this knowing that it comes from a game called Rogue, which was one of the first rouge-likes and also where the term comes from due to the popularity it had.
15:48 YES, it's called Returnal and it's amazing!!!!!
Rouge-lite works the same way as regular rouge-like games but you keep some stuff like items, skills, abilities upon losing
Yes, that means a true rouge-like games make you lose everyone, starting from zero again
I think that the most important yet often overlooked feature is, rogue Like games are quite grindy. I actually never thought to look at it like that until I did with Hades 2. And that's when I started to just go along with the flow and see how far I'd get. It's a grind and to have a runs that are all the exact same, what Garnt prefers in a game, that would just not work for Hades 1 or 2 since they both get repetitive and boring. So the random events and encounters are what makes it so much more fun
I think the easiest comparison to explain roguelike vibes is arcade games. They’re both tight, run based game loops where it’s about beating yourself. Roguelikes we’re just able to add buildcraft to it
I don’t know if Totalbiscuit coined the “lite” term, but that’s the first place I remember hearing it
Roguelike games are often semi procedurally generated. The map generator picks randonly from a set of hand crafted blocks, and the map generator will abide by some rules that the game designer feels would be fun.
Returnal is a AAA roguelike game. It's one of the first PS5 exclusive games
Not full AAA roguelite games but Nintendo had two games in the last few years that added roguelite modes into them
Splatoon 3 and Xenoblade 3, XC3's being much more expansive
Subnautica is great because the regions are hand-made by the designers so it looks beautiful, the flora and fauna is super intriguing. Because sometimes with procedurally generated maps, it feels "hollow" to me but that isn't always the case ofcourse
Subnautica has a story to finish and linear progression in a sense. Like youre landing into this world as part of the story therefore the map has to be non-procedural wherein in Minecraft its a Sandbox where you can do what you want in "your" world which is why Worlds are randomly generated with given restrictions / presets on how to generate.
Look at games like Horizon, Far Cry, Assassins Creed where all are RPG games with a story to finish and youre playing as a designed character in a designed map for a designed story. If you want to feel less hollow with games that have procedural maps you have to look at those games differently, maybe theyre not RPG, maybe they dont have a set story or world, maybe theres a purpose for ever changing tiles?
Can't forget the classic Binding of Isaac
You’d think Garnt would be old enough to know Rogue
What makes the games with procedurally generated levels fun is the replayability these games have.
You know why Rogue-lite and rogue-like games are popular? Because they rely on creating a fun gameplay loop and experience.That's the stuff that makes games FUN to play.
No overpriced "experiences" with sprawling, but empty, worldmaps and movie-like cutscenes (that are just at B-movie level most of the time). A lot of the high budget games uses a goal/reward incentive for players which can be hit or miss. When it misses, things feel like second jobs and chores (Assassin's Creed games, anyone? Ubisoft in general, really).
Games like Hades, Enter the Gungeon, Balatro, Isaac, Slay The Spire, Crypt of the Necrodancer, Rogue Legacy and so on, are fun because you like to PLAY them, not for the rewards or the ending. It's for the moment to moment gameplay.
Enter the Gungeon is a fun example, because it's a game that a lot of people uninstall early on, but then inevitably come back and go farther each time. It is a Rogue-like (no in-between runs straight improvements), but the weapons unlock can open up the game and make it easier if you hit the jackpot, you still gotta git gud, though.
Rogue the game with procedurally generated worlds/dungeons (Daggerfall had them, Disgaea has item world, others did than the 'whole game' and the restarts/losing conditions is important), but less harsh aka not losing gear/loot or more fair on players. Rogue the old game like, but lighter on its conditions.
Soulslike is just losing your souls not your gear as muchI think. Basic hack n slash combat that even Diablo had as they are RPGs first souls games in the CRPG way Dungeon and Dragons way of PC RPGs or has more depth than souls games basic combat let alone character action games like Devil May Cry, God of War that are third person beat em ups basically but more Resident Evil horror DMC originally was then changed or God of War as fighting gods of large scale threats and epic scale environment backgrounds not so much the linear levels unless wakking on a statue and the scale camera wise shown or climbing on the big tree character I forget the name of but 2 weapons, a basic skill/combo upgrade system and fixed camera to not that over time.
But souls games have horror or gothic atmosphere which ever since Kings Blade From software had been doing on PS1 elt alone Cookies and Cream or other non that games or the Otogi games I think are pretty early souls or sekiro or Echo knight series as horror puzzle games.
Very RPG CRPG points systems of old like Elder Scrolls series, Outer Worlds or Runescape or other old games with agility, dexterity and more terms used aka Dungeons and Dragons or the soul loosing it's nothing new.
Maybe gear lost but either way its horror setting, gear losing or currency only, horror of its own sort then Resident Evil style and it's character action combat do basic attacks than even the combos of those games because it's an RPG.
I don't care for them or the many AA attempts at expanding on the trend like Choros cool age idea but eh level design and pathetic weight when no armour what a joke.
Darksiders 3 was my introduction and metroidvania, eh map, awkward movement worse then Darksiders 1&3 yeah I preferred Genesis as the Diablo clone sort or more so camera angle but still Darksiders 1 like. 3 was just bad even the puzzles were more basic to accommodate like what why?
A true Roguelike has no meta aspect, you can't upgrade your character between runs
@@champiggyfrm_pig5271Interesting I must have only played others then or I need to do further research (always needed to for hack n slash or beat em ups let alone roguelikes anyway) thanks for the clarification.
I did play Hades but also Konami 's which is Coded Arms on PSP.
I have not played Rogue itself or many others.
@@suntannedduck2388 I true rogue like would be something like Noita. Where you do unlock new spells you can find in a future run, the character itself is never stronger and is always the weakest you will be. The thing that makes the game "easier" is how much you know of the game and it's mechanics.
@@lebundonthanks for that. Yeah the getting easier with abilities then stats RPGs usually would right? The gaining abilities like Metroidvania which I prefer gear over stats anyway. Always cared for gear to open areas or get better attacks/animations.not stats like many push of RPGs.
Like been gaming for years but only certain genres or IPs (platformers, racing Sims/kart racers, sort of arcade but not as heavily as now, tycoon, Sims, shooters FPS/TPS) only over the years 2017+ more so expanding to collecting and learning about other genres then my usual. From ma U like will mention below or visual novels besides Metropolismania as a visual novel city builder.
So still learning/wrapping my head around new ones to me these past few years.
I mean my first Metroidvania was Pitfall Lost Expedition as it tried to base itself around Prime 1 or 2.
So from that to Axiom Verge, Metroid Dread or Steam World Dig that was a learning experience as well.
I think I've heard of it. Not followed the space that much. I'll take a look. But the name sounds familiar.
It's not a genre I care for but respect, but I am always curious about just knowing what's out there even if I don't play them.
Learned a fair bit from souls, always knew about rogue but not enough till Hades/Coded Arms and understanding hack n slash/beat em ups of old like Diablo, or Golden Axe/Streets of Rage and character action. A lot of research and buying old collections/the God of War 2005/others of Conan that came after or ones that came before God of War 2005, Darksiders, Dante's inferno, DMC, Bayonetta and more since.
A lot of things I'm slowly getting the hang of what makes them what they are.
@@suntannedduck2388 Do check out Noita, is very fun. But it has a huge learning curve because it is a Rogue-Like. It's a game you will NEED to check out videos and the wiki to learn stuff just because there is just so much to learn, so it's not a game for everyone.
It took me a while to get into it, but once it clicked every run is super fun, but that's mostly because i'm not dying in 5 min.
The game is focused on using wands and spells and how you build your wand is extremely important.
But like i said, huge learning curve so it's not for everyone, it takes time to learn and it's pretty frustating dying so much.
It look me 35 hours to even beat the last boss, and most people see that as beating the tutorial because there is just so much else to do in the game.
It is possibke for a Roguelike to still have Hades’s narrative mechanic as it technically doesn’t strengthen the player in concept.
Binding of Isaac does that with its sequential endings and nobody has any issue with that
Gacha can also have rogue-lite event/minigame
Like Ahoy said in his "What Genre is Doom?" video, quoted "its ridiculous to invent a new genre centered on a single game, only then exclude the originator"
Original Hades was also early access so you can expect the final game to have some significantly new or different stuff you can expect the same quality I think
not that much, no. hades 2 has more to offer in its ea form than hades 1 has right now. its pretty much completed
Living up to the name
I know its not a popular opinion but i really don't like the traditional top down hack and slash rouge like/lites games they dont click the same way for me as the other rouge like/lites like i feel like in the traditional rouge like/ lite game the loop is way more obvious and because of that i find them more tedious and i become more likely to get more likely to get frustrated and bored of the game play loop
Currently playing Darkest Dungeon and one thing I realized is that Band of Blades table top RPG is severely inspired by Darkest Dungeon. I love it because I have no one to play band of blades and Darkest Dungeon is Scratching that itch.
Band of Blades was also inspired primarily from the Black Company novel series so you should check that out too
@@AkyJave definitely will, thanks mate.
I really hope they try Spelunky 2, I play that rogue like almost every day
Both Hades games have a limited amount of rooms, I've played them enough to know that lol
Garnt needs to try deep rock now for a good procedural generated experience
Returnal might not count considering it was small Devs getting purchased by Sony, but it feels like a triple A roguelike
ofc it counts. a genre is not limited to budget
I'm so tired of trying to make a distinction between the genre and the subgenre. A roguelike is a roguelike is a roguelike.
Tbf the naming convention is kinda lazy. People in the 80s were like: Yo they made a bunch of games like 'Rogue', what do we call that genre? - How about Rogue-like.
Same with the entire Metroidvania genre
Also seen Doom-clone
Well, if the game itself is quite descriptive for what the game style meant, then it works. Why u want it named something else
or Dark Souls like lol, basically gamers would call other games with similar gameplay with games that was or is popular.
not like it changed nowadays.
Am I the only one who pronounced it as rogue elite until I saw the "-" in the title?
Any conversation about Rogue games that doesn't include "the binding of Isaac" just makes me disappointed.
The only difference between Roguelike and Roguelite is 🤓☝
Real
Does anyone know if garnt likes p3 or not lol, cause with this arguement I feel he would fucking hate tartarus.
Gotta rec my boy, wizard of legend. Ever wanted to be the avatar? Its gameplay is great ❤️
(Fair warning really hard tho and its learning curve is a cliff)
One of the best games ever, imo. The combos you find yourself in are so rewarding. Plus the variety of stuff that actually works is fantastic, allowing you to really play a style that fits your mood
@TiredHighProductions right? I've been losing hours to the boss rush mode trying to get the full elemental gem combos haha
@@TiredHighProductions the first sentence is too much, lets be real
it sucks that the game is a roguelike. would be better as a normal game
@@Exel3nce it has pvp, co-op, a boss rush, endless mode, and literally thousands of combos minimum. The main game is also built around being a roguelike, so I don't think it would be better if it wasn't one. If it's not your cup of tea, yeah that makes sense. But if it weren't random it would be literally way too easy. Since it is though you can easily spend over 100 hours on this game and still not do close to everything. Of course calling it one of the best is a bit of hyperbole. But seeing as it's one of my personal faves that's always easy to go back to (whether solo or co-op) it's not too far off. Especially for trying to point out how underrated it is.
I feel like they rely on luck more than some are willing to admit.
Binding of Isaac is one of my favorite games of all time! Rogue like/lites are awesome!
I LOOOOOVE Risk Of Rain 2
Never heard of Rogue-Lite lmao
I've heard it from Itch io
I've never played dark souls. But I've played the shit out of rogue likes. I also played eve online for 10 years. My thought of fun is making your own.
FTL is another great Rogue-like
All this time i thought people say "rouge-like" kinda like "souls-like"
That's exactly what it is lol. They're games that are "like" Rogue. Just like how souls-likes are "like" Dark Souls 😂
is tft roguelite
Nah it’s mid
Raid, die, repeat!
Raid, die, upgrade, repeat!
Dead cells
Never take game opinions from a gacha player
god that take from garnt gave me aneurysm
As someone who knows too much about the debate on what is a rogue-lite/like, I was screaming internally while listening to Conner. 😰It feels like someone trying to describe what a souls-like game is after playing hollow knight and they know nothing about the fromsoftware games.
At least he tried his best with the limited knowledge he had.
early gang
They fucking BETTER not think the term is
"Rogue-lite"
Its not....its "rogue-LIKE"
I hope they dont think people are saying "souls-lite" when they are describing how a game is LIKE a dark souls game.
It is both "rogue-LIKE" and "rogue-LITE". They refer to different type of game progressions in the same genre but a rogue-like and rogue-lite are different types of games.
Rogue-like and lite are both a thing, hades is closer to a rogue-lite since there is continuous progress between runs.
Chill tf out bruh it ain't that deep
@@DDPMonster well gee, guess I learned something today. Also, that’s fucking dumb that the two terms sound so similar. Call it something else.
@@yogichopra6606 how…..is that different from other rogue-like games? Isn’t slow progress each time you die the only way these games work? What’s the alternative? Starting from zero each time? I’ve never heard of that approach.