Bulk Fermentation : Mastering Temperature and Time - Part 3
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- Part 3: Baking and Analysis of Results. Click here for links to sections.
Part 3: Baking and Analysis of Results
0:00 Intro
0:12 Loaf 3/4 Bulk Fermentation Done
8:15 Loaf 2 Bulk Fermentation Done
10:01 Loaf 1 Bulk Fermentation Done
12:02 Bulk Fermentation: Comparison of Results
20:53 Loaf 4 Score and Bake
26:74 Loaf 3 Score and Bake
33:03 Loaf 2 Score and Bake
36:28 Loaf 1 Score and Bake
39:31 Comparison of Refrigerator Cold Retard Times and Temperatures
41:11 Comparison of Loaves
50:04 Comparison of Sliced Loaves
52:11 Lessons Learned
1:05:24 Mastering Temperature and Time
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As a beginner on my sourdough journey living in tropical Thailand the information contained in your marvellous, meticulous video gives me all the knowledge I need to combat this challenging baking environment. Well done indeed !!
Thank you for the feedback. I created this series after many comments from people in tropical climates. I made some updates in a video here that resulted in a better looking loaf at 32C/90F. ua-cam.com/video/SUa9aY7r9w4/v-deo.html
Thank you for another informative video. I always learn something useful.
For example, warning against trying to speed up fermentation by overshooting the desired dough temperature in the proofer is really helpful advice. Of course this would overheat the exterior while the centre warms up. It's these details that you convey which prove so valuable.
Managing dough temperature is certainly a topic worth exploring. In winter, when mixing the dough, I've noticed that my warmed water drops by a few degrees Celsius just by pouring it into a room temperature bowl. I then laminate the dough 3 times. Since this involves spreading it onto a cool countertop, it also causes the dough to drop several degrees.
Thank you. I wasn’t happy how the loaves turned out. I re-shot a similar video here. ua-cam.com/video/SUa9aY7r9w4/v-deo.html
I learned a lot and appreciated the level of detail of the process you documented
Thanks.
Also check out this video starting at 1:12:44. I redid the experiment and the loaves came out much better looking. ua-cam.com/video/SUa9aY7r9w4/v-deo.html
This is an awesome resource, thank you for your well thought out and experimental process
Thank you! I wasn’t happy with how those loaves turned out at the end so I did the experiment again here. Check out the ending of this video for a better comparison of the loaves. ua-cam.com/video/SUa9aY7r9w4/v-deo.htmlsi=RVtyJp1-kWQ_qamk&t=4365
A very valuable series and thanks for all of your effort. It's much appreciated.
Thank you!
You make the best videos and explain the data and results of the experiments so well! Thank you for sharing your knowledge, it helps a lot👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.
Thank you from Russia! Its very helpful even for commercial bakers!
Thank you for the feedback.
Hi, I feel compelled to write again (I commented on another of your videos) as I have just eaten a perfect slice of sourdough bread, thanks to you. All I did, to improve on my totally inedible loaf, was increase the bulk fermentation by an hour, and I added warm water (40c) instead of room temperature water, to compensate for my low room temperature here in France during the winter (it's between 17 and 18c). Thank you so much, you've made me (and my husband) very happy!
Thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it! It is gratifying to know that my videos are helping others improve their baking.
Your videos deserve an order of magnitude more views. This is the most informational resource I have encountered in my SD journey of 6 or 7 years now. Preach!
Thank you! (And thanks for proper use of the often misused term “order of magnitude.”)
You did compress a lot of information in this video. It was very informative. Thank you.
Thank you.
Used your density adjusted calculation and my dough came out perfect! Thnx!
Thank you for trying it out and reporting back!
Thanks for all the effort!
Thank you.
The only mistake in the whole video is the sentence: "I'm not a scientist". Greetings from Argentina!
Thank you!
Wow. Impressive. Thanks Tom! 💪👌✌️🙏
Thank you!
Man I love those tables. Trying to extract just one extra scrap of knowledge from all the data, besides: "warmer is faster," we can also learn, "double the starter = 50% faster," as doubling the starter to 20% generally cuts time from 15 hrs to 10 hrs. I've been using 100g/25% starter but man the hockey stick can catch me flat footed. First checked my loaves after 4:20 and they'd risen 100%. Obvious in retrospect: I bet they were done an hour earlier.
Thanks. I was never happy with how those loaves came out, so I re-did the experiment here.
When is Bulk Fermentation Done? Episode 7 - "Some Like it Hot: The Temperature Effect"
ua-cam.com/video/SUa9aY7r9w4/v-deo.html
@@thesourdoughjourney Beers and rock music in the basement = trouble. I'm onsidering an air conditioner as summer approaches to keep it cooler down there.
amazing info
Thanks.
Great!
Thanks!
I think another thing explains overproofed like dough that risen at 32C. Above 30C lactic acid bacteria reaches their best temperature range. So they produces more acid and more quickly. I think that is the explaination to this phenonena, as well as happens to the levain. Thank you for your videos.
Yes, thank you.
The normalized time chart is interesting because it shows that the lag time varies with temperature. Your starter must be acostumed at 24C so it takes less time to adapt and it starts to rise sooner. When temperature rises, microrganisms must adapt to new environment and it took time.
Interesting. I had not thought about the starter with respect to that chart.
Hard to imagine they "adapt" but simply respond, immediately. Is it not that their chemistry runs faster when warmer? Another writer identified warm conditions as favoring bacteria vs yeast. That seems a more likely circumstance, that higher temp favors bacteria and lower temp favors yeast. I think that might explain the disparity in the time-normalized plots Tom shows at 15min in.
TSJ - excellent presentation! I happened to be looking for exactly that topic and found myself spending 2.5 hours in front of the TV to find out what happens next. I appreciate your attention to keeping all the variable the same to the best of your ability such that we can see only the effect of time and temperature. I had read somewhere that Temperature is to be considered one of the ingredients of bread making (along with flour, water, yeast) and you make it very clear that it is, and the role it plays.
I was waiting for you to discuss the taste which unfortunately you did not do. I'm a wine maker and there are a lot of similarities with making bread which I find interesting. More specifically, in wine making, the speed of fermentation can have a dramatic impact on the final sensory characteristics of the wine such as mouthfeel, aroma, taste (what flavors are expressed - might not be exactly relevant to bread), and color. In general, faster fermentations of wine are not a good thing as many of the pleasing characteristics of the wine are not given a chance to be expressed usually in the area of aroma and taste. A usual fermentation is on the order of 5-7 days (this is a simplistic generalization, but give you an idea) and I have had some crazy happy yeast complete in 2 days. The key in such cases to to cool down the wine with a variety of techniques such as glycol jackets around the tanks or other tools and a cooler environment will slow down yeast activities (as with bread).
So my question is whether you noticed a sensory difference (other than the visual aspects of the crumb) such as mouthfeel, aroma or taste? I'd like to know if one of the tradeoffs in managing the bulk fermentation is also a tradeoff in taste and/or mouthfeel.
thanks.
Thank you for the feedback. Great questions. I had planned to but did not do a "controlled" taste test of these loaves. After 36 hours of baking I was pretty much shot and had to wrap up the recording. But I did taste each of the loaves over the next day or so. I did not taste any noticeable difference in the taste of the loaves. And I am still eating them as toast (from numbered bags) and I do not taste a difference. The mouthfeel was and is identical among the loaves. I usually can sense a different aroma as the loaves are finishing up baking and I did not notice a difference. In my experience, most of the flavor differences in the loaves comes from long cold proofing as the yeast activity shuts down and the lactic acid bacteria starts to generate acetic acid at lower temperatures. At higher temperatures, the loaves generate more lactic acid, which, to my palate is a little less discernable than the "bite" of the acetic acid. A few others have asked the same question, so I will bake up a few loaves using this same method and do a formal taste test in the future, but my gut feel is that the bulk fermentation temperatures did not materially impact the flavor of the loaves. I am very interested in pushing the limits of the "fast, 90-degree" loaf, so I will keep working on this topic and will advise if there is a noticeable difference with the fast, warm fermentation.
@@thesourdoughjourney You should invite some winemakers/sommeliers/beer makers or others who are professionally trained in discerning subtle taste differences. Not only would it be interesting, but sounds like it could be fun.
That is a great idea.
@@thesourdoughjourney I have a few things to share. The first is that, as a new sourdough maker, the attention to temperature has made a phenomenal difference in the quality of the dough during bulk ferment. I got window pane and beautiful dough just like so many videos show.
In the past, I got gloppy messes (still tasted good upon baking though).
Secondly, I'd like to see you do several segments on sourdough pizza dough and refrigeration . I make a lot of home made pizzas and what got me onto sourdough was through pizza making. My first question is how long to let the bulk ferment rise after the last of 4 folds? From your experiments in bulk fermentation time/temp, I see you let it rise 30% before cold ferment overnight (except for the one you left on the counter overnight). Is this what would be recommended for a pizza dough as well?
Also, going back to the taste topic again, and I do plan on doing an experiment myself, how much does a cold ferment contribute to taste? Should one let a cold ferment dough warmup at all after taking out or just go right into the dutch oven (or be shaped and used as a pizza dough)?
So, to be clear, my questions are not about shaping the pizza specifically or anything in that domain, it's about the sourdough after bulk ferment and before the baking. Thanks for your great info.
@@garymarcos Great questions. Thanks for the feedback. I've a attempted pizza dough a few times with mixed results. The Tartine recipe, which I follow in these videos, recommends for pizza dough that at the end of bulk fermentation when you normally would divide the dough (after the 30% rise), divide out 400g of dough and let it sit on the counterop for 30 minutes, then shape that into your pizza crust and bake it. I've also refrigerated the dough at this point and used it one to two days later after it warms up for about 30 minutes at room temp. I've had spectacular results a few times and mixed results more often than not. The big issue for me is that sometimes the gluten is stronger than others and I can get a super thin crust that bakes up perfectly. Other times the gluten is weaker and the dough tears when trying to get a very thin crust.
Regarding your question of flavor enhancement from cold fermenting, I have a detailed video on this topic, "The Long, Cold Proof" where I cold proof 6 loaves over 5 days and do a controlled taste test of each loaf (my wife and myself as official "tasters"). I think you'll find some of what you are looking for in that video. ua-cam.com/video/awm5Otm-RTQ/v-deo.html
I don't recall all of the specifics from that video, but I believe the best tasting loaves were the 36-48 hour cold retard loaves. But I describe the progression of the flavor with each successive day in the fridge, and assess potential gluten deterioration, which contrary to popular belief, was very minimal, even after 5 days in the fridge.
If one wants to proof at 30-32C (which is ok if the result is desirable), it must be noted that the amount of levain have to diminish. It is a problem to mantain 25-30% of levain at high temperatures. Ive done sometimes that kind of proofing, but I used 15% of levain. Loaf was ok. I liked it. =)
That will be my next experiment. How to adjust starter quantities to different BF temperatures.
@@thesourdoughjourney awesome
High temperature proofing dough seems more gummy. I saw this effect when I proofed at 30C. My hypothesis is because the amount of acid is greater.
I’ve had mixed results at 90F / 32C. It is possible to get a great loaf at that temperature, but I cannot do it consistently. Things move so quickly.
Hi, Tom. If I want to make nicely proofed bread by monitor the raise percentage as the main variable. Could I control the bulk fermentation on 1.3x volume raise and the second proof on 2/1.3=1.5x raise to acquire the double volume.
Yes, but measuring the percentage rise after shaping is less precise than measuring the rise in the dough during bulk fermentation.
Here is the method I use for determining the end of bulk fermentation, then I typically do a cold retard for final proofing, dough won’t visibly rise much in the refrigerator. ua-cam.com/video/E-Z1Yle-VXA/v-deo.html
Thank you so much for sharing these experiments with us. Very valuable information you have here. I have a question: you proof your dough up to 25%, but the raise during the retard in the fridge goes up until what percentage? As you mentioned, the bread continues to raise in the fridge for the first hours. How the curve of this raise would look like? From my own experience, the temperature in the fridge also counts very much, 4ºC in your fridge is more of a dormant temperature while with 8ºC in your fridge your risk to overproof your dough overnight.
Good question. I usually do not see any visible rise in the refrigerator with these loaves. The dough is still fermenting in the fridge but apparently not enough to show a visible rise. My maximum refrigerator temperature for overnight proofing would be about 5C and I try to keep everything at around 4C. In this experiment, it was interesting to see the loaves all took approximately 10 hours to actually get down to refrigerator temperature. That was something of a surprise. In my video, The Long, Cold Proof, I do experiments of 1-5 days in the refrigerator.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you! The science behind bread is impressive and you need to understand it in order to obtain consistent baking or to progress. I appreciate very much your detailed videos. I'll have a look on the one you recommend also. ;)
I'm guessing you are physicist who likes applied physics. You're a great instructor! Thank you. What do you think about first cold proofing in the freezer for 15-20 minutes then moving to the fridge? I wonder if that would drop the dough temp quicker without harming the dough?
Thank you. I am not a scientist by training, but have always loved science and teaching. I have tried the freezer method before with a runaway overproofed loaf and it definitely works.
Would you say that the 15 F double the time rule of thumb is linear? As in, 7.5 F difference would take a 1.5x the BF time?
Within the range from 75F to 90F it is linear. Below 75F it flattens out a bit. Check out these new tables. thesourdoughjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Bulk-Fermentation-Timetables-V1.0.pdf
I was thinking about the difference you mentioned in the way you estimate the water temperature and how it depends on whether you want to increase the dough temperature or decrease it. It has occurred to me that the reaction of gluten formation might be contributing to it as well. If that reaction is exothermic, then the heat created while the gluten is being formed may add to the heating action of water, so you would raise the dough temperature more efficiently (i.e., the water temperature and the heating effect of the gluten formation would add up). Conversely, if you are trying to achieve a cooler dough, then you supply cold water, but that volume of water would be heated up by the gluten formation reaction, so you would have to compensate for that by supplying a colder-than-expected water. I am not sure if it works just this way - if it works the opposite way, then it would mean that the gluten formation is endothermic, i.e., that reaction actually takes some of the heat energy from the water to occur and the reasoning would go the opposite way.
Thank you! I was hoping someone would have some insight into that. I’ll do some research on it based on your theory. I also wonder if the gluten formation has some kind of “heat trapping” characteristic (similar to cheese on top of pizza).
@@thesourdoughjourney Yes - so that would happen if somehow gluten had a different specific heat capacity than the average heat capacity of water plus dry flour. Certainly worth looking at. And there is also the fermentation process itself - after all, you are doing fermentalyse and perhaps there is some heat contributed or taken away by this process as well. But that would probably happen on a different timescale than the gluten formation reaction.
Thank you.
Hi, Tom. Since there is not enough time to finish mix, bulk fermentation and shaping on one weekdays' night, the mixing and S.F. process were kept on low temperature and the dough was retarded into fridge for 18h. Then the dough was fermented at 28C to raise its volume to 1.2-1.3 time. Is this procedure also acceptable? Thank you very much.
It is always difficult to pause the process in the fridge and restart it the next day. It is possible, but very difficult to predict. All I can suggest is to experiment with the additional percent rise after it comes out of the fridge. It can vary quite a bit because it is highly dependent upon how far along the dough was before it went into the fridge. The process works, but is difficult to provide a general guideline for it.
@@thesourdoughjourney It 's a very useful suggestion. I also noticed that the dough volume was decreased a little after retarded into the fridge. As you said, It can vary quite a bit, I will sacrifice sleeping time to avoid interfere the bulk fermentation. Thanks a lot.
I really enjoy your videos! They are very instructive, and you are not over-simplifying, which I like. (I am also from The Netherlands, so my English is maybe less than perfect).
This video does raise a question for me. I totally understand the relation between time and temperature, and why you would want to monitor both. There is, however, another factor in function of time, especially with making sourdough bread, and that is taste. More time equals more taste, I would say.
My kitchen doesn't come near a temperature of about 24, 25 degrees C. 20, that's it. But my dough (I use a 100% spelt starter and 100% spelt for baking, at 70% hydration) will easily reach a bulk-fermentation-rise of 20%, if I give it six or seven hours. And since I am planning to duplicate your experience with the long cold retard, starting at 72 hours, an extra hour or two at bulk fermentation wouldn't be an issue at all.
So I was wondering what your thoughts on this would be: if I am going for maximum taste (not necessarily maximum sourness), I let the fermenting dough rise to about 120%, I pay attention to the tell-tale signs of under- and overproofing like you showed in just another great video and adjust accordingly, I go for a long cold retard of somewhere between 72 and 120 hours - then bulk fermentation at a lower temperature for a longer period of time would not be a problem, eliminating the (in my opinion) somewhat cumbersome quest for ways to emulate a proofing chamber for maintaining those higher temperatures.
Wouldn't you agree?
I guess what I am really asking is: is dough temperature in itself a contributing factor to a great loaf of sourdough bread.
Thank you for the feedback. Yes, I agree that longer, cooler fermentation will typically produce more flavorful loaves. In this experiment I was really pushing warm temperatures because it was summertime and I was getting a lot of questions about warm weather baking and how to managed time for people with very warm kitchens.
But, yes, I agree, longer cooler bulk fermentation is an option also. I’ve found that I like the flavor at 80F/28C because it produces a nice sourness at that flavor for the recipes I use.
@@thesourdoughjourney Ah yes! I can understand that with higher ambient temperatures time is of the essence, rather than the other way around.
My crumb comes out too gummy. It’s not underbaked, i took it’s internal temp. I let it bulk ferment untill it grew 50% (I measured it with a sample dough I put in a marked jar). I cold retarded the formed bread in the fridge for 16hrs. I baked it on my dutch oven lid on at 450F for 20m, without lid at 400F for 25m. My starter was doubled in sized, so it’s not the problem, I used 20% in the dough. My kitchen is 29/30C. I use 70% water, 2% sal, 20% levain. My flour 11-12% protein. What can be causing the gummy texture.
A lot of different things can cause that? 1) some flours don’t handle high hydration well. Try reducing your hydration %. 2) although your internal dough temp reads 209, that does not guarantee the internal loaf is fully baked. Try baking longer. Add 10 more min with the lid on and see what happens. 3) Some people allow their loaves to “cure.” After done baking, remove the loaf from the Dutch oven and return it to your oven rack with the oven off. Let the loaf continue to heat up as the oven cools down. This will continue to evaporate more moisture out of the loaf. 4) Starter strength. Try strengthening and/or de-acidifying your starter. I struggled with gummy loaves until I really learned to get my starter to peak strength. 5) Feementation. Is the loaf under or overproofed? Loaves really need to be perfectly proofed to have the right texture.
@@thesourdoughjourney thank you I'll try that!
man they are all flat as pancakes
Yes , those were very small loaves and all Overproofed a bit.
I also re-did that experiment in this video. Just watch the comparison of loaves at the end for a better looking example. ua-cam.com/video/SUa9aY7r9w4/v-deo.html