Banger Tips. I've been going through all your old videos and giving them a thumsup too. Found you when looking for a meta overview on Ench Shaman and Rogue. Subbed for sure.
Even with a prot warrior, exposed armor is worth running. If I am not mistaken, it's 475 more armor reduction than warrior and it's valuable on top of the 4000+ from other sources of armor reduction (since the armor has more effects towards 0). Even so if the raid comp is "physical heavy" (i.e. more hunters than warlocks)
Sorry stupid questions I can‘t find an answer to maybe you guys can help me out. I got 10% hit on my rogue right now according to my inventory. Are those 10% included or excluded the 5% from talents? So do I have 15% in total or just 5% without the talents? Sorry for this dumb question. Its my first dmg class I only played healers before
No. Read the sentence in the video again, it's correct. Melee spots will be in short supply and high demand, since there won't be many spots for melees in a raid compared to Vanilla.
Hella rogue will still dish out much higher numbers than your average Joe. These videos are of any worth only to minmaxers. 90% of the player base can roll a rogue and do just great.
I remember why I switched my main from rogue to bear in vanilla BC. It wasn't because it was bad, it was because the community wanted me swords. And to me, being a swords rogue is just being a warrior, I'll never do it. Why am I even a rogue then? I think the main issue was blade flurry and adren rush being too broken to not have, which meant that the mutilate spec fell behind, which is a real shame. I'm hopeful that the "we won't take rogues" or "you need to be swords" is overblown at raid levels below the "we speedrun new content on the 1st night" guilds (i.e. basically all players), but at this point, it's more of a fool's hope :-(
While there will be raids taking rogues...Not gonna lie, you won't get a spot with a competent guild playing dagger. You're already in a weakened state PVE wise and going for a spec that does even less dmg which is really all you bring...Yeah, outside of a casual guild (and even there you might get comments) it'll be tough. Just being honest. Rogues aren't nearly as bad as people think DPS wise however utility wise...Yeah, unless you don't have a warrior tank we're not bringing much outside of spamming interrupts with PVP gloves.
@@dylanchavez7498 is that even viable? assuming a 3 raid night week that means 300gold a week just in respecs, add consumables, enchants and repairs and you might end up farming for gold the rest of the time. Especially in the beginning when trying to get to 5k for the fast mount.
@@MegaLatexxx i only ever raid twice a week and only respec once per week plus we dont even need to respec for pvp until arenas are out if you really want to save your gold. normally its main raid and then next day would be alt raid i already have enough for my epic and i never farm lol i just gdkp.
Rogue > all Gank city. Add a Druid and you guys will never not have fun. Something about stalking someone in stealth and then just demolishing them when they least expect it.
I remember being the only Mutilate rogue on my server (I'm sure there were others, but so rare). I was deep Assassination spec for pve and pvp...surrounded by either deep combat sword rogues for pve or mace wielding hemo rogues for pvp...I like being a special snowflake but tbh it got depressing. I made it work, curious if I still could in the modern min max WoW meta...
This is how I see it. Play what the hell you want to play. This is most likely the last time this content will be re-released so have fun and fuck the min maxers. Remember those “no lifers” are not the ones paying for your sub. Just have fun.
I think the next two are going to be feral druid and Hunter based on the poll I put up but I will be trying my best to increase the upload amount so very few are missing come blizzconline. I'll put up another poll once the feral druid one is released for specs after Hunter!
Generally I'd say the only reason to play Rogue for PvE is if you have a secure raid spot in your guild and they're willing to "drag you along" until you start scaling in T6 gear + glavies. That being said I'm more fan of having a Feral Druid along as DPS/third tank option and having a Warrior main tank, once the Druid is geared and you have a set of Glavies then you move the Feral Druid up to main tank and have one of your Warriors go Fury with Glavies.
For The Twink Early on Warrior tank is, by far, the best tank option because they’re not as dependant on gear becauae of their defensive toolkit. As you have a Warrior MT for a long time you won’t ever use the Rogue armor reduction as it would completely screw over the threat for the Warrior tank, so the Rogue wouldn’t bring any buffs/debuffs to the raid- on top of being lower end of melee dps until BT gear + you’re a melee. You also, always, want a Warrior specced into the 4% physical damage taken debuff (Arms), plus having 2 Warriors to spread Battle Shout is a good idea if you plan to use more than 3 Hunters- which most raids will do. With 4-5 hunters (one being Survival) your two physical groups will look something like this: Grp1: Arms Warrior, Ret Paladin, Enh Shaman and 2 BM Hunters. Grp2: Prot Warrior, Feral Druid (third tank), Resto/Enh Shaman and 2 BM Hunters. (If you run with 4 Hunters you put your Survival Hunter here). Where would you fit the Rogue if you have 4 BM Hunters? Answer is that you wouldn’t. If you have 3 BM Hunters + a Survival Hunter then maybe you could put the Rogue in one of the groups, but this IS a raid dps loss. Alternatively you could in BT gear make the Feral Druid your new MT, thus freeing up one dps spot for a Rogue, however I’d still go with a Fury Warrior with Glavies over a Rogue because you might want the warrior to tank at times. There’s also the benefit of having 2 Warriors for Battle Shout so you don’t have to manually move one Warrior around to apply the buff during raids. Rogues do scale very well in BT and Sunwell, that’s not the issue, the issue is that they’re not very good before that and is more of a drag than a benefit.
The competition Rogue would face is Fury warrior and the 2nd Feral Druid as pure dps. Some of the utility rogue bring is totally negated by fury warrior such as sander armor. The on demand burst cleave is also shadowed by fury as they have sweeping strike, whirlwind with 8s cd, and cleave. As potential warglaves user take either a fury or a rogue. It's more of a social game at that point. Playing rogue in TBC is never all about PVE. Arena is a better stage for rogue and hopefully it's not against your interests, my fellow rogue players.
im trying to figure out bis proffessions... ive heard if the engi goggles are available at launch you should take that instead of leatherworking? or is leatherworking and jewelcrafting still bis?
It depends on your goals. Engineering goggles have some value in early arena thanks to the stealth detection element , same with the JC panther trinket for aiding your stealth. The goggles are also better than Phase 1 helms, but will probably get replaced by Tier 5 helm in Phase 2. However, for PvE I'd lean towards LWing since Drums don't look like theyre gonna be nerfed; and Enchanting has the nice flat boost of +8 all stats. If you're really into minmaxing, you could get your bis rings, enchant them then drop it for JC or Engi. If goggles are in on release, then Engi is better than JC for phase 1 but is 'dead' after this because Illidan Helm and KJ helm are both better than the Sunwell goggles.
What percentage weaker value does a rogue bring over say another hunter or something else? We can theorycraft that its a lot, maybe it is. But I've seen casual guilds that just want to raid with guildies, casual Friday night fun in Kara, and they will work in 2 healers, 2 tanks, some DPS. They really aren't that bothered about minmaxing specific specs. They'd bring 4 enhancement Shamans to Kara if they wanted to go. Rogues could just join a less hardcore guild and raid just as much as other people, still have fun, still DPS, still be daggers if they really want to. The game isn't that hard that all the end game content absolutely can't be done with a rogue, so I think they'll be fine.
Overall, for sure, you're right. The focus is on the meta in this brief guides because as you say, if people are happy to play with friends regardless, nothing is truly awful. There's a bunch of guilds even in classic now with many 'meme' specs because it's not really a barrier to accomplishing the content. Early on, Hunters can be almost twice the DPS single target and towards the middle content its a bit smaller but still quite vast. Either way though, it would take a very awkward composition to make the content incredibly hard or anything, so people should ultimately play what they enjoy. It's important that people know the meta implications of going rogue though even if its not their cup of tea cause it does impact pugging etc sadly. At least unless something changes in community perception.
I remember people saying that swords were far better than daggers in classic. But in my alliance experience, all those sword rogues got stuck with virgin viskags and brut blades while the dagger rogues got their chad perds, pugios and deaths stings. Moreover, daggers imo is so much stronger for pvp - in classic anyway. So I really wonder, are swords really that much better than daggers in TBC? Or is it just going to be another case of "its better if you get all of your highly contested bis items"? And by how much?
There seems to be some demand for more info on this so I'll see if I can fit in a look at the different specs sometime. I will say though that many slots for rogue, especially weapon aren't highly contested. So whilst you may have some early trouble finding a good main hand for example, generally speaking if you raid and see a sword, it's often going to you unless your guild is also running a fury in the raid. There's a brief time in Black Temple where Rogues may want an offhand that is also good for prot warrior but mostly, you have 1h swords to yourselves. Also consider that loot scarcity is reduced dramatically in TBC.
I mean, most guilds are fine to take a few, it's just not ideal, I'm sure it will be fine just not as easy as other classes - play what you enjoy always!
Well it only affects finishers, but you still will get dodged on Sinister Strike and Sword Procs, so Expertise retains a lot of value all the way up to the soft cap of 26 total expertise, fortunately Rogues get 10 baseline from the combat tree, with humans, you're then only in need of 11 expertise or 44ish expertise rating - that said though, you'd still take a higher value item over capping if the math works out.
Sword rogues were supposed to be kings in classic as well and turned out to be simply not true. Dagger rogues have been very competitive and in some phases better. So till tbc is out id hold of on that statement.
@@schmidth what do u mean? A lot of content creators were saying it the same way they are saying it now, that swords were gon be way better and it just wasnt.
If you have a prot warr main tank, and I suspect most guilds will you cannot use expose armor as it will get overwritten by sunders from devastate. If warr does not devastate it will lower the threat ceiling and the entire raid will have to hold back or risk pulling the boss, meaning less overall dps. 2 points in improved EA will be useless. Pserver meta isnt always valid on blizzard. Did you watch the entire vid, he touches on this quite a bit.
Surprised you didn't at least include Mutilates talents as a potential PvE spec. I've seen it put out some really impressive numbers in the right hands.
@@absolutefolly2011 It's somewhere between 2% and 5% difference if both players are skilled. Realistically it'll never be more than a 80-150 dps difference between mutilate and combat swords. Most likely on the lower end of that. Not really what i'd classify as a dead spec to be honest. Certainly not worth forcing yourself to play combat swords if you'll enjoy it less. Rogue DPS is going to be sub-par compared to hunters, mages and locks unless they have glaives anyway.
If I have blacksmithing on one character, can I craft items for other characters that don't have blacksmithing? Or do you need blacksmithing to use that item
To use the early game epics, you need the specific blacksmithin specialisation to equip - eg. for Dragonstrike and the earlier versions, you need to be a macesmith to craft and use. I will probably do a video on Master Blacksmithing at some point over the next month to introduce the decision making and time frame of the benefits - another commenter suggested it on the Ret paladin video and I think its a good idea.
@@zacharysedgwick4841 For the Sunwell necklaces, yeah. It's a common theme for your character's professions to have direct gearing impacts at (usually) the early-mid game, then right at the end in Sunwell Plateu.
I'm guessing this is laughable utility, but what about Hemo? It's a debuff that increases every physical damager's dps that would work doubly for hunters with pets right?
There is a 'trispec swords' that includes Hemo that is not awful when comparing to combat swords, if you include the hemo bonuses to raid damage. It is still a bit behind from what I can gather at this stage, but definitely not completely trash. I believe this is the points you spend for that: armory.twinstar.cz/talent-calc.php?cid=4&d=tbc&tal=0053201000000000000000053050020050150020000000502530002300110000000 Most stuff I see about this is anecdotal though, I haven't found any strong parses from legacyplayers to backup the claim that its close to combat swords, but I do know this is a somewhat viable hemo build. Popular opinion is that this is the closest spec to Combat Swords/1Mace+1Sword in performance.
As mentioned, Imp EA is just not used if theres a prot warrior, so I left it out. In theory, for raid dps, you'd prio Imp EA over SnD if its used. Typically only boss thats gets Imp EA on P-servers is KJ because the warrior tanks the adds on that fight usually (or just dont run prot warrior on KJ).
To be honest, pre-T6, it is private servers that give rogues a better image. At the time, our rogues were noticeably poor on DPS til they got giga-pimped in the late game.
Yeah that's true, at least with glaives you're around abouts the top. It really is just the utility aspect thats rough for rogues, with limited spots, you'd rather get those other debuffs/buffs from Ret/Arms/Enhance etc. Though I have a suspicion that the growth of melee specs in raid comps may occur slightly earlier than what currently is the case on most private server 'meta' guilds
@@KnotxD I hope you're right about that But my thing is I think a lie the specs that you're talking about specifically retribution paladins Arms Warriors those After looking at them those don't buff warlocks or hunters sharman's do but. And on top of it they bring heroism/bloodlust I guess my point is I don't think you're going to see a lot of those retributions unless your buddy buddy with the Guild that you're running with. I mean just think about that contact's let's be honest retribution does not start doing decent damage imperatives the other classes until wrath of the ledge king that was their expansion. That's why It's my favorite expansion because a lot of classes finally felt finished I mean yeah they were twinked in BC but for a lot of classes it doesn't really feel like they're finished. Much better by a very big margin but finished now not by area stretch the final finishing touches were definitely put on in wrath of the lich king. Speaking from someone that did used to main a rhetorician paladin in BC and someone that did not want to heal. I can tell you the only thing I ever ended up doing was well battlegrounds. None of my friends really wanted to arena and even if I have aly would have found one and well a retribution paladin twos is laughable. My point as is I don't think the little both stay bring are gonna be enough to justify O Hey yeah sure you can come in the raid. Unless by some miracle you don't have a protection paladin or a holy paladin which would be very surprising to me. I mean cause what how many bust you really honestly need from pallies 4 5 Might, Kings, Light, Salvation, Wisdom, If you're a caster And finally that all 1 specific 1 that you can only get protection. That I don't remember the name of. But I mean you can khalasi what I'm saying here I just I don't think it's gonna be this really big impact every once making it sound like you know. Especially if blizzard doesn't give paladins both seals which don't get me wrong I completely think they should. By I guess we'll just have to see you now you are correct though I do think there will be him a little bit more of a male I Meadow when people are saying however. I think it's gonna be mainly rogues if I'm being honest And if there is a fury Warrior it's gonna be probly there just for well DE puffing with those one handed axes so you can't even use. BC weapons anyway so again I don't know I guess we'll just have to say
I'm going assassination. Love the build, love the playstyle. Love the class fantasy. Why even have daggers in the game? Whats the point of having agi daggers? More daggers for me, I can care less about swords. Everyone is playing combat and im sick and tired of it. Wait until WOTLK assassination is king. I think the point of being able to go back and play TBC and later xpacs. Is to be able to play what wasn't the meta. To give other specs a shot, like arms, ret, assassination, feral.
PvPers mostly play on Endless, whereas the 'next fresh' PVE crowd are currently on Atlantiss' Karazhan realm. Not that PvPers aren't on Karazhan too, just that seems to be the way people gravitate.
@@bluefate2159 Ah I didn't know that. That's interesting. Blizzard should keep an eye on that for potential issues etc when they inevitably upgrade classic to wrath also.
rupture is only better if you have the 30% bleed debuff on the target which should be no issue in 25man but sometimes can not be the case in 10man content also for absolute min max logging you still use Evis over Rupture since you expect every single Evis to crit in a perfect enviroment / log otherwise decent vid for new or returning players
People can dunk on pve rogue all they want. Yeah I didn’t do well on mob aoe dps but rarely was I beat on a boss fight. We never had any world first downs but we were 2nd alliance guild on an og original server so I feel the class wasn’t the problem it was the players lol. I went combat swords and spammed SS slice and dice and rupture/expose armour. Our melee dps group was beast mode. Range dps chirp rogues because they aoe spammed dps meters during mob pulls while getting smashed on boss fights
As someone whose main was a Rogue throughout all of TBC I am kind of sad to see how bad they are. Which is also very confusing as I remember doing quite well on the damage meters (although a lot of my memories come from BT / Sunwell which is when Rogue's start ramping up). But I was also very new to the game when TBC first came out so I was most likely terrible for a lot of the expansion and didn't even realize it.
I understand 100% - I recall playing with 2 rogues for most of TBC in my raid team and I remember being mind blown as a young teenager that cloak could deal with Wrath of the Astromancer etc. So my memory of rogues is actually not awful, but yeah with the modern lenses we use to 'judge' performance, its rough out there as a rogue.
At this moment, I am not certain but I think based on the comments on this video I will visit the alternative rogue specs in a seperate video to discuss how close performance is. Can't give a timeline as I have a huge to-do list but I won't forget!
The best channel about TBC so far
Banger Tips. I've been going through all your old videos and giving them a thumsup too. Found you when looking for a meta overview on Ench Shaman and Rogue. Subbed for sure.
These guides are great mate thanks
Thanks for this!
Even with a prot warrior, exposed armor is worth running. If I am not mistaken, it's 475 more armor reduction than warrior and it's valuable on top of the 4000+ from other sources of armor reduction (since the armor has more effects towards 0). Even so if the raid comp is "physical heavy" (i.e. more hunters than warlocks)
Indeed, its more of a knock on prot than it is for rogue.
Uhh, we also have to keep up imp exposed armor??
Sorry stupid questions I can‘t find an answer to maybe you guys can help me out.
I got 10% hit on my rogue right now according to my inventory. Are those 10% included or excluded the 5% from talents? So do I have 15% in total or just 5% without the talents?
Sorry for this dumb question. Its my first dmg class I only played healers before
In the limitations section shouldn't it say low demand and high supply
No. Read the sentence in the video again, it's correct. Melee spots will be in short supply and high demand, since there won't be many spots for melees in a raid compared to Vanilla.
Hella rogue will still dish out much higher numbers than your average Joe.
These videos are of any worth only to minmaxers.
90% of the player base can roll a rogue and do just great.
I remember why I switched my main from rogue to bear in vanilla BC. It wasn't because it was bad, it was because the community wanted me swords. And to me, being a swords rogue is just being a warrior, I'll never do it. Why am I even a rogue then?
I think the main issue was blade flurry and adren rush being too broken to not have, which meant that the mutilate spec fell behind, which is a real shame.
I'm hopeful that the "we won't take rogues" or "you need to be swords" is overblown at raid levels below the "we speedrun new content on the 1st night" guilds (i.e. basically all players), but at this point, it's more of a fool's hope :-(
While there will be raids taking rogues...Not gonna lie, you won't get a spot with a competent guild playing dagger. You're already in a weakened state PVE wise and going for a spec that does even less dmg which is really all you bring...Yeah, outside of a casual guild (and even there you might get comments) it'll be tough. Just being honest. Rogues aren't nearly as bad as people think DPS wise however utility wise...Yeah, unless you don't have a warrior tank we're not bringing much outside of spamming interrupts with PVP gloves.
Just respec between raids?
@@dylanchavez7498 is that even viable? assuming a 3 raid night week that means 300gold a week just in respecs, add consumables, enchants and repairs and you might end up farming for gold the rest of the time. Especially in the beginning when trying to get to 5k for the fast mount.
@@MegaLatexxx i only ever raid twice a week and only respec once per week plus we dont even need to respec for pvp until arenas are out if you really want to save your gold. normally its main raid and then next day would be alt raid i already have enough for my epic and i never farm lol i just gdkp.
hello where I can find this 3v3 and 2v2 ladder ? can u share link for this ?
Rogue > all Gank city. Add a Druid and you guys will never not have fun. Something about stalking someone in stealth and then just demolishing them when they least expect it.
rogue > all classes expcept warrior > warrior > rogue
I remember being the only Mutilate rogue on my server (I'm sure there were others, but so rare). I was deep Assassination spec for pve and pvp...surrounded by either deep combat sword rogues for pve or mace wielding hemo rogues for pvp...I like being a special snowflake but tbh it got depressing. I made it work, curious if I still could in the modern min max WoW meta...
ofcourse you can, that some others minmax doesnt mean we all have to, play the way you like
This is how I see it. Play what the hell you want to play. This is most likely the last time this content will be re-released so have fun and fuck the min maxers. Remember those “no lifers” are not the ones paying for your sub. Just have fun.
what poisons do you use in raid/dungeon
I’m getting those orange pixels
awesome stuff ! can we hope for a holy priest / resto drood quick meta guide in the near future?
I think the next two are going to be feral druid and Hunter based on the poll I put up but I will be trying my best to increase the upload amount so very few are missing come blizzconline. I'll put up another poll once the feral druid one is released for specs after Hunter!
Generally I'd say the only reason to play Rogue for PvE is if you have a secure raid spot in your guild and they're willing to "drag you along" until you start scaling in T6 gear + glavies.
That being said I'm more fan of having a Feral Druid along as DPS/third tank option and having a Warrior main tank, once the Druid is geared and you have a set of Glavies then you move the Feral Druid up to main tank and have one of your Warriors go Fury with Glavies.
Chances of a guild giving a warrior glavies over a rogue?
For The Twink Early on Warrior tank is, by far, the best tank option because they’re not as dependant on gear becauae of their defensive toolkit. As you have a Warrior MT for a long time you won’t ever use the Rogue armor reduction as it would completely screw over the threat for the Warrior tank, so the Rogue wouldn’t bring any buffs/debuffs to the raid- on top of being lower end of melee dps until BT gear + you’re a melee.
You also, always, want a Warrior specced into the 4% physical damage taken debuff (Arms), plus having 2 Warriors to spread Battle Shout is a good idea if you plan to use more than 3 Hunters- which most raids will do.
With 4-5 hunters (one being Survival) your two physical groups will look something like this:
Grp1: Arms Warrior, Ret Paladin, Enh Shaman and 2 BM Hunters.
Grp2: Prot Warrior, Feral Druid (third tank), Resto/Enh Shaman and 2 BM Hunters. (If you run with 4 Hunters you put your Survival Hunter here).
Where would you fit the Rogue if you have 4 BM Hunters? Answer is that you wouldn’t. If you have 3 BM Hunters + a Survival Hunter then maybe you could put the Rogue in one of the groups, but this IS a raid dps loss.
Alternatively you could in BT gear make the Feral Druid your new MT, thus freeing up one dps spot for a Rogue, however I’d still go with a Fury Warrior with Glavies over a Rogue because you might want the warrior to tank at times. There’s also the benefit of having 2 Warriors for Battle Shout so you don’t have to manually move one Warrior around to apply the buff during raids.
Rogues do scale very well in BT and Sunwell, that’s not the issue, the issue is that they’re not very good before that and is more of a drag than a benefit.
@@MrGlennJohnsen you sound like a butthurt brownie war. Get outta the rogue community lol. Go to fightclub
@@asianmaddness56 Nope, Ret Paladin here. Not in classic, obviously, but from TBC prepatch I'm going Ret.
Has any thing changed in terms of drums? I’d rather not leather working on my rogue.
It got tinnitus added to the use, so only need 5 drummers out of 25 raiders now
any more vids on pvp?
I'd check out silent shadows on YT for rogue pvp stuff, definitely more information/expertise there :)
The competition Rogue would face is Fury warrior and the 2nd Feral Druid as pure dps. Some of the utility rogue bring is totally negated by fury warrior such as sander armor. The on demand burst cleave is also shadowed by fury as they have sweeping strike, whirlwind with 8s cd, and cleave. As potential warglaves user take either a fury or a rogue. It's more of a social game at that point. Playing rogue in TBC is never all about PVE. Arena is a better stage for rogue and hopefully it's not against your interests, my fellow rogue players.
im trying to figure out bis proffessions... ive heard if the engi goggles are available at launch you should take that instead of leatherworking? or is leatherworking and jewelcrafting still bis?
It depends on your goals. Engineering goggles have some value in early arena thanks to the stealth detection element , same with the JC panther trinket for aiding your stealth. The goggles are also better than Phase 1 helms, but will probably get replaced by Tier 5 helm in Phase 2.
However, for PvE I'd lean towards LWing since Drums don't look like theyre gonna be nerfed; and Enchanting has the nice flat boost of +8 all stats. If you're really into minmaxing, you could get your bis rings, enchant them then drop it for JC or Engi.
If goggles are in on release, then Engi is better than JC for phase 1 but is 'dead' after this because Illidan Helm and KJ helm are both better than the Sunwell goggles.
What percentage weaker value does a rogue bring over say another hunter or something else? We can theorycraft that its a lot, maybe it is. But I've seen casual guilds that just want to raid with guildies, casual Friday night fun in Kara, and they will work in 2 healers, 2 tanks, some DPS. They really aren't that bothered about minmaxing specific specs. They'd bring 4 enhancement Shamans to Kara if they wanted to go. Rogues could just join a less hardcore guild and raid just as much as other people, still have fun, still DPS, still be daggers if they really want to. The game isn't that hard that all the end game content absolutely can't be done with a rogue, so I think they'll be fine.
Overall, for sure, you're right. The focus is on the meta in this brief guides because as you say, if people are happy to play with friends regardless, nothing is truly awful. There's a bunch of guilds even in classic now with many 'meme' specs because it's not really a barrier to accomplishing the content.
Early on, Hunters can be almost twice the DPS single target and towards the middle content its a bit smaller but still quite vast. Either way though, it would take a very awkward composition to make the content incredibly hard or anything, so people should ultimately play what they enjoy. It's important that people know the meta implications of going rogue though even if its not their cup of tea cause it does impact pugging etc sadly. At least unless something changes in community perception.
what percentage? around 30-50% on damage.
its a lot.
Man am I gonna regret boosting this orc rogue.. hope I don’t miss wotf too much, although I do have a human rogue already I could use for pvp
I remember people saying that swords were far better than daggers in classic. But in my alliance experience, all those sword rogues got stuck with virgin viskags and brut blades while the dagger rogues got their chad perds, pugios and deaths stings. Moreover, daggers imo is so much stronger for pvp - in classic anyway. So I really wonder, are swords really that much better than daggers in TBC? Or is it just going to be another case of "its better if you get all of your highly contested bis items"? And by how much?
There seems to be some demand for more info on this so I'll see if I can fit in a look at the different specs sometime.
I will say though that many slots for rogue, especially weapon aren't highly contested. So whilst you may have some early trouble finding a good main hand for example, generally speaking if you raid and see a sword, it's often going to you unless your guild is also running a fury in the raid. There's a brief time in Black Temple where Rogues may want an offhand that is also good for prot warrior but mostly, you have 1h swords to yourselves. Also consider that loot scarcity is reduced dramatically in TBC.
Daggers are absolutely not better in 1v1 situations in pvp, you have more burst but that's it. Hemo/cold blood spec is by far the best 1v1 spec
I know this is the meta video and everything, but I'd like to see another vid evaluating the other rogue specs in comparison to the meta one.
Noted!
There are other specs like rogue tank which I play atm on pservers
So as a new player who is level 43 and gonna not switch I’m fucked then, if you only bring 1 or no rogues how tf am I gonna raid lol
I mean, most guilds are fine to take a few, it's just not ideal, I'm sure it will be fine just not as easy as other classes - play what you enjoy always!
@@KnotxD Yea ill never be some hardcore player so ill always play what i want, just gotta find other people like that.
With surprise attacks making yellow attacks undodgeable, doesnt that drastically reduce the need for expertise?
Well it only affects finishers, but you still will get dodged on Sinister Strike and Sword Procs, so Expertise retains a lot of value all the way up to the soft cap of 26 total expertise, fortunately Rogues get 10 baseline from the combat tree, with humans, you're then only in need of 11 expertise or 44ish expertise rating - that said though, you'd still take a higher value item over capping if the math works out.
@@KnotxD oh my bad thought it made SS, BS etc undodgeable as well. Yeah that makes sense
Sword rogues were supposed to be kings in classic as well and turned out to be simply not true. Dagger rogues have been very competitive and in some phases better. So till tbc is out id hold of on that statement.
We knew before clsssic that swords and daggers were similar, many people preferred swords because it's easier to play.
@@schmidth what do u mean? A lot of content creators were saying it the same way they are saying it now, that swords were gon be way better and it just wasnt.
The difference is minimal, rogues are there to let other people do dps with improved expose Armor and interrupts.
Does shadowmield still allow a rogue a restealth?
In TBC you still have to drop combat for shadowmeld
Envenom its worth use sometimes?
I don’t agree with the rotation. You want to maintain slice and dice and expose armor. Therefore also the 2 combo points for it.
If you have a prot warr main tank, and I suspect most guilds will you cannot use expose armor as it will get overwritten by sunders from devastate. If warr does not devastate it will lower the threat ceiling and the entire raid will have to hold back or risk pulling the boss, meaning less overall dps. 2 points in improved EA will be useless. Pserver meta isnt always valid on blizzard. Did you watch the entire vid, he touches on this quite a bit.
Surprised you didn't at least include Mutilates talents as a potential PvE spec. I've seen it put out some really impressive numbers in the right hands.
@@absolutefolly2011 It's somewhere between 2% and 5% difference if both players are skilled. Realistically it'll never be more than a 80-150 dps difference between mutilate and combat swords. Most likely on the lower end of that. Not really what i'd classify as a dead spec to be honest. Certainly not worth forcing yourself to play combat swords if you'll enjoy it less. Rogue DPS is going to be sub-par compared to hunters, mages and locks unless they have glaives anyway.
If I have blacksmithing on one character, can I craft items for other characters that don't have blacksmithing? Or do you need blacksmithing to use that item
To use the early game epics, you need the specific blacksmithin specialisation to equip - eg. for Dragonstrike and the earlier versions, you need to be a macesmith to craft and use. I will probably do a video on Master Blacksmithing at some point over the next month to introduce the decision making and time frame of the benefits - another commenter suggested it on the Ret paladin video and I think its a good idea.
@@KnotxD does that also apply to jewelcrafting gear as well?
@@zacharysedgwick4841 For the Sunwell necklaces, yeah. It's a common theme for your character's professions to have direct gearing impacts at (usually) the early-mid game, then right at the end in Sunwell Plateu.
Are you supposed to use a 5 CP slice and dice on opener or just 1 CP to get it on?
1
Poggers in the chat
Soo pretty much what your saying is the daggers i have are useless
Lol not useless but it's really hard to look past sword spec at 70
I'm guessing this is laughable utility, but what about Hemo? It's a debuff that increases every physical damager's dps that would work doubly for hunters with pets right?
There is a 'trispec swords' that includes Hemo that is not awful when comparing to combat swords, if you include the hemo bonuses to raid damage. It is still a bit behind from what I can gather at this stage, but definitely not completely trash. I believe this is the points you spend for that: armory.twinstar.cz/talent-calc.php?cid=4&d=tbc&tal=0053201000000000000000053050020050150020000000502530002300110000000
Most stuff I see about this is anecdotal though, I haven't found any strong parses from legacyplayers to backup the claim that its close to combat swords, but I do know this is a somewhat viable hemo build. Popular opinion is that this is the closest spec to Combat Swords/1Mace+1Sword in performance.
Thanks. Guess I was on to more than I thought lol.
Kind of reminds me of the rogue offtank spec I saw. (obviously not 100%)
shouldnt it be: maintain SnD -> maintain ImpEA -> if spare CPs, Rupture?
As mentioned, Imp EA is just not used if theres a prot warrior, so I left it out. In theory, for raid dps, you'd prio Imp EA over SnD if its used. Typically only boss thats gets Imp EA on P-servers is KJ because the warrior tanks the adds on that fight usually (or just dont run prot warrior on KJ).
This man is the fortune teller of rogues. That script is flawless.
What script?
I'd go daggers till glaives. No competition for loot
No competition cause you won’t get a raid spot...
@@diegosanchez6771 your funny 😄
There is a backstabbing build that works seen it work only thing Rogues lack is group utility.
Great guide but basing rogue performance in raids purely off of Pserver data is questionable, i'll take this with a grain of salt.
To be honest, pre-T6, it is private servers that give rogues a better image. At the time, our rogues were noticeably poor on DPS til they got giga-pimped in the late game.
I agree. Private servers do not represent what official servers will be like so we will wait and see
Spell power rogue or bust!
In fairness Isn't every single class that's not. Warloeck, Hunter, Marge. A class that gets dunked dawn for DPS. In tbc lol
Yeah that's true, at least with glaives you're around abouts the top. It really is just the utility aspect thats rough for rogues, with limited spots, you'd rather get those other debuffs/buffs from Ret/Arms/Enhance etc. Though I have a suspicion that the growth of melee specs in raid comps may occur slightly earlier than what currently is the case on most private server 'meta' guilds
@@KnotxD I hope you're right about that But my thing is I think a lie the specs that you're talking about specifically retribution paladins Arms Warriors those After looking at them those don't buff warlocks or hunters sharman's do but.
And on top of it they bring heroism/bloodlust I guess my point is I don't think you're going to see a lot of those retributions unless your buddy buddy with the Guild that you're running with.
I mean just think about that contact's let's be honest retribution does not start doing decent damage imperatives the other classes until wrath of the ledge king that was their expansion.
That's why It's my favorite expansion because a lot of classes finally felt finished I mean yeah they were twinked in BC but for a lot of classes it doesn't really feel like they're finished.
Much better by a very big margin but finished now not by area stretch the final finishing touches were definitely put on in wrath of the lich king.
Speaking from someone that did used to main a rhetorician paladin in BC and someone that did not want to heal.
I can tell you the only thing I ever ended up doing was well battlegrounds.
None of my friends really wanted to arena and even if I have aly would have found one and well a retribution paladin twos is laughable.
My point as is I don't think the little both stay bring are gonna be enough to justify O Hey yeah sure you can come in the raid.
Unless by some miracle you don't have a protection paladin or a holy paladin which would be very surprising to me.
I mean cause what how many bust you really honestly need from pallies 4 5 Might, Kings, Light, Salvation, Wisdom, If you're a caster And finally that all 1 specific 1 that you can only get protection. That I don't remember the name of.
But I mean you can khalasi what I'm saying here I just I don't think it's gonna be this really big impact every once making it sound like you know.
Especially if blizzard doesn't give paladins both seals which don't get me wrong I completely think they should.
By I guess we'll just have to see you now you are correct though I do think there will be him a little bit more of a male I Meadow when people are saying however.
I think it's gonna be mainly rogues if I'm being honest And if there is a fury Warrior it's gonna be probly there just for well DE puffing with those one handed axes so you can't even use.
BC weapons anyway so again I don't know I guess we'll just have to say
I'm going assassination. Love the build, love the playstyle. Love the class fantasy. Why even have daggers in the game? Whats the point of having agi daggers? More daggers for me, I can care less about swords. Everyone is playing combat and im sick and tired of it. Wait until WOTLK assassination is king. I think the point of being able to go back and play TBC and later xpacs. Is to be able to play what wasn't the meta. To give other specs a shot, like arms, ret, assassination, feral.
even assassination for pve?
TBC NEEDS TO COME OUT ALREADY!
We are going home sir,we are going home :D
that wiggly water though
Make a quick meta guide for boomkins/balance druid :D
Theres a poll up atm on my community posts, go vote boomie!
Where people plays tbc these days after WM removed their tbc realm?
PvPers mostly play on Endless, whereas the 'next fresh' PVE crowd are currently on Atlantiss' Karazhan realm. Not that PvPers aren't on Karazhan too, just that seems to be the way people gravitate.
@@KnotxD atlantiss moves on to wotlk in 4 months tho
@@bluefate2159 Ah I didn't know that. That's interesting. Blizzard should keep an eye on that for potential issues etc when they inevitably upgrade classic to wrath also.
rupture is only better if you have the 30% bleed debuff on the target which should be no issue in 25man but sometimes can not be the case in 10man content also for absolute min max logging you still use Evis over Rupture since you expect every single Evis to crit in a perfect enviroment / log otherwise decent vid for new or returning players
Bring honor among thieves party buff increased haste with the rouge in tbc as a change :) lelelelele
Rogues is the funniest class expect to find group with... its NOT easy in tbc
👍🏻
People can dunk on pve rogue all they want. Yeah I didn’t do well on mob aoe dps but rarely was I beat on a boss fight. We never had any world first downs but we were 2nd alliance guild on an og original server so I feel the class wasn’t the problem it was the players lol. I went combat swords and spammed SS slice and dice and rupture/expose armour. Our melee dps group was beast mode. Range dps chirp rogues because they aoe spammed dps meters during mob pulls while getting smashed on boss fights
I wish we weren't useless in pve. :')
Spec strengths...
.... kick..
Me *lol*.
Rogues got it tough in PvE! haha
whys waste time talking about pve rotation when good players would ignore what u said lol
they do indeed everything, dps control, movement and dying to warriors
don’t sleep on the night elf rogue
@@paperbagkun dont sleep on the night elf rogue
@@colindubzak4178 You persuaded me. Night elf rogue it is.
WoW TBC Rogue: Dont pick a rogue.. guilds would rather take anything else..
As someone whose main was a Rogue throughout all of TBC I am kind of sad to see how bad they are. Which is also very confusing as I remember doing quite well on the damage meters (although a lot of my memories come from BT / Sunwell which is when Rogue's start ramping up). But I was also very new to the game when TBC first came out so I was most likely terrible for a lot of the expansion and didn't even realize it.
I understand 100% - I recall playing with 2 rogues for most of TBC in my raid team and I remember being mind blown as a young teenager that cloak could deal with Wrath of the Astromancer etc. So my memory of rogues is actually not awful, but yeah with the modern lenses we use to 'judge' performance, its rough out there as a rogue.
Whats the difference between combat dagger, and mutilate spec in dps?
At this moment, I am not certain but I think based on the comments on this video I will visit the alternative rogue specs in a seperate video to discuss how close performance is. Can't give a timeline as I have a huge to-do list but I won't forget!
@@KnotxD Legend! Cuz ill 100% go dagger spec. So would be nice to know if combat or assa is better :D