I think you dont need the Ideal Setup. The nice Thing bout TBC is, you can Play whatever you want, everything is viable. But every UA-cam Pro Talk bout the BEST. I dont get it. And after this Videos people wont Play hat they want to, they Play most DPS, Best Tank, Best Heal.
It’s still that way mostly. The meta is cool to think about and min/maxing a raid is important to the top tier guilds in the world. But for the rest of us that just wanna play and raid casually the meta is less important.
@@knarf427 I like being top dps too but I would never reroll to a class I don't enjoy because it does more dps, or ignore inviting a class that does less dps than others to a dungeon or raid...
@@thorbeorn4295 That is only good to a certain level of play though. Once you reach a certain level, ignoring the meta is harmful to your group which isn't fair on the other players
Interesting to see this list now that we know the dmg capabilities each class can do. Like ele shaman actually being one of the worst dps in raids while ret paladins are abolute pumpers in single target. Fury warriors doing insane dmg (which nobody originally believed which is kind of insane to me). Arcane being the best caster dps, and warlocks being slightly lower than expected, and survivial hunters actually pumping really hard as well if they can consistently melee weave during the fight.
An Arms warrior's Blood Frenzy is only physical damage not ALL damage, and I am pretty sure it was a tooltip bug, and only affects melee attacks, rather than all physical damage
Thanks, Boss! This Tier List is actually much more helpful than those looking only at throughput. I'll most likely lead a Raid myself and as I barely remember TBC this helps a lot with preparation for recruitment.
Power levels change A LOT between tiers. For instance with 2p T5 mages become top contender on the DPS metters, be it only for 1 tier. Also I am pretty sure that warglaives rogues will do competitive DPS as well.
Rogues are gear hungry m8 . They do fine without warglaives . They are useful ppl don't take rogues because the players that roll rogue suck at the game . IDK why ppl complain about rogue anyway . They are op in pvp and can prolly get superior gear from arena
Unfortunately due to many people only caring about DPS meters, most pugs will consider Ret dps and shadow dps to be D rank. I'm not sure why so many people ignore the utility of classes and only think about straight damage capabilities
Min/Maxing in WoW is pointless at character creation. Play what looks the best to you and spend your Min/Maxing time on endgame gear where it actually matters. As someone who is 41yo and played about 6-7 MMOs with' WoW since closed/open betas on and off with breaks, all I can say is play what you want and what you enjoy the most. Fun = longer time played with X class and Y spec = better geared = better ingame experience = less chance of reroll etc etc. I mean the super hardcore playerbase is what, 5% of the total? Even Kevin Jordan said that the hc represented like 0.3% in Vanilla who cleared Naxx. But many content creators trying to make it sound this is the regular norm. Sigh.
Yep, things change once you get into t5-t6. Mages start dropping off in sunwell. Locks just become better caster options all around by that point so you usually just bring the 1 mage. Enhance shamans get really strong by t6 as well. Rogues with glaives are competing with warlocks without problems against demon targets. Which is a lot of BT, and all of sunwell. Marks hunter although still kinda niche does strong dps once you get some good gear. My buddy mained marks and could compete for sure.
The way i understood his thought process was that, when 3 warlocks all get that 15% buff it equals the same as you would have 3.45 warlocks in your raid instead of just 3 but, yeah, in the end its still 15% overall dps increase.
In Vanilla TBC we killed Archimonde in Hyjal with 1 paly tank, 3 BM hunters, and a Resto Shaman when the raid was current content. Your ranking of demo lock is a head scratcher. The FG does a shitload of damage. Its the best early lock spec until around 23% crit when you move onto full ruin/ds. Even after a good demo lock will be close to the top of damage following BM hunters and destro. The only hurdle with demo is pet heals and when you get 2 pc tier 5 and bribing a paly/druid healer friend to make a target macro to spot heal your pet for mana pot payments. It will do VERY well. its a crazy strong spec to play! For those of us who have PLAYED TBC we know this to be a fact! >8)
Okay, but that dps is ruined any time the FG can’t get behind the target. That being said, top warlock dps in TBC t4 was actually affliction, but the skill cap with that spec is much higher. Just because you saw one demo lock near the top doesn’t mean that demo is strong. I remember seeing rogues top damage in t4 on some pulls, but that doesn’t mean that the rogue competes with a warlock if they are equally geared and skilled players. For those of us that actually do the math and have the ability to properly evaluate data, we know that the true best dps spec, as the stated goal for this video, is in fact not demo ever, unless you want to count locks without gear or skill
Rogues: Combat maces/sword with Dragonstrike is BiS untill glaives - any Rogue doing PvE will be BS and LW crafting the maces as there is nothing comparable, the spec is a hybrid mace/sword spec with a sword OH
I used to be copy from 60 camp, but after this I hope they start fresh servers to give everyone a fair chance with rerolls and the economy. Pallys/Shaman also getting a fair chance to get to end game with everyone else. The economy seriously needs a reset and hopefully a better bot detection system. I would definitely eat the reroll if it means a better server life. Short term pain for long term gain.
Same, even though from the start i thought fresh servers are the best idea from the game integrity PoV. At least when TBC servers are open we will have month or two of decent economy ...
Taking away what people have grinded in Classic is just unfair and in the long run hurts integrity of the game. When u do that people will play way less next expansions beceause they have no guarantee they will keep what they achieved. U say a fresh chance is fair, i don't know how is it fair on people who sunk days into leveling alts in Classic or grinded gold and items like TF or T3 sets. Maybe u can set a pretty high gold cap for transfer like atleast 10k and probably more like 50k or even 100k so there is no way it can affect 99% of playerbase but u can't take away people's characters and items.
@@Mason1968PL But when you think about it...no one promise you TBC to begin with , Blizzard is not obligated to do so, it is your own wish and nothing more then that.
@@Mason1968PL There not taking it away are they? I hear this arguement all the time, blizz never promised you tbc.. they promised you classic, if they create fresh tbc servers and not progressive you still have that gold on classic..
"It's not fair that I can't take all my gold and my gear into tbc" why isn't it fair? Noone promised you progressive tbc nor progressive servers.. they promised you classic wow.. and you have it.. if they create stand alone TBC servers you still have your gear and your gold?
Combat Sword rogues, played correctly, and with enough haste pots, the DST from Gruhl, well timed wind fury from a shaman, and stacking hit to the hit cap - would typically lead DPS in most single target boss fights until almost Mount Hyjal. The mistake folks made with them was not understanding that most damage with a rogue comes from (1) white damage from never letting slice and dice drop (2) DOT from keeping rupture up at 5 dots at all times (3) DOT from deadly poison on your offhand. if you are playing this right you should be doing well over 1K on tank and spank bosses by the time you have a few pieces of T-4. Also, the most important rogue rule of all for DPS - don't fucking die.
I'd have loved to have some sort of debate between IDS & deep holy priest - but seeing them as a 2 of, I would assume that one is from both specs ^^ Great video as always mate, cheers!
I'm actually interested how shaman tanking is going to work if rockbiter gets nerfed to the ground, you can't spec into parry without losing a massive amount of threat, and earth shock no longer generates threat
Could you do a video showing what changed for classes as patches where released? Like what classes for better and which got worse on the latest patch that TBC classic will be released in
I remember my ret pally being my main alt that got a huge buff going into patch 2.2 or so. I had mostly t6 gear and still wasn't all that good beforehand. When the big sunwell nerf (along with that buff I assume) came I was competing for best dps on every single boss.
@@SullenJazzhands i do think that Chimera shot and overall talents makes MM really strong at least from what I tried. Also remember that volley is spammable!
warr and rogues do good dmg providing the boss mechanics allow it. It's not that they do bad dps, it's just that so many mechanics favours ranged. But if they can stand and pump on a boss, they are very good.
It really depends on the gear, by the last two teirs rogues with warglavies are on top very close second are fury warriors and so you will see raids that are packed full of them. The early raids are a cake walk anyway so really no need to ever stack hunters and warlocks but without extremely good gear the melee heavy raids do have a slower harder time early on, so I am sure you will see the guilds going for world firsts do the first couple of clears as ranged and then split raid with alts to gear the melee ready for later teirs. BTW there is a very very good chance that a fury warrior or rogue will be top dps in even the early raid teirs in hardcore groups this is because there is infact much better pre raid physical damage melee equiptment from crafting and dungeons than caster.
You never see ''raids packed full of them'' as first you need to aquire the damn claives and they are pretty rare. On top of that, i would argue that its a minority group who clears the raid to begin with.
"It's a 15% increase to shadow damage, with 3 warlocks that is a 45% increase in damage from those warlocks." That is not how percentages work. It's just 15%.
45% of 1 warlock dmg is the end result. depends how you you look at it. Each warlock doin extra 15% dmg, add this all together you get 45% of power added on top of the pack of 3. Other words, you started with 3 warlocks, now you got 3.45 warlocks. Or 15% total damage increase. I guess its a backwards way of looking things but there it is.
i have to agree BM hunter is S Tier BM hunter begins to rule in pvp and pve starting of TBC expansion 14 years ago my hunter facepalm the keyboard and pressing 3 buttons can easily be top dps
@@stupidcomment6571 I get your point, although I can never agree on calling Warriors op when something like Mages exist :P I mean, ya, Warrior is king of dps and best tanking class, but pretty much sucks in every other part of the game, be it leveling, farming, solo PvP etc. So I think it is actually ok, that they are top tier in raids. Mage, on the other hand, just dominates all of these categories and is still insanely good in raids. So yeah... If I had to choose a topdog in Classic it would not be Warrior :P
@@chocrikir655 No because you literally can't stack more than 3 of anything. if you stack more than 2 you are probably hurting your overall raid performance. More than 3 then unless you are switching for every encounter, you're definitely going to underperform. This is completely different to the Classic meta of "as many as we can find" for Warriors.
@@dairallan You are not wrong, but the main reason for that is the cut to 25. You basically get in all the important support/tank/healing roles and stack the best dps for the rest of slots. In Classic there are a few less supporter that actually matter, so getting in things like Shadow or Enhancer is definately refreshing. But other than that you still stack the best dps, but there are less spots to fill them with, so you rarely see more than 3 of each. If TBC was 40, we would also see all these extra 15 spots filled with Hunter/Warlock
@@internetalpha5173 yea iirc it applied 2 stacks of 20%? nature damage taken to the target but i think rouges could also steal some of these stacks with poisions
Just play what ever you enjoy, even if that means your fav class is at the bottom of the list. Now adays everyone get court on just playing s or a tier class, btw love your videos man keep it up
I don’t like tiering specs in TBC, because that’s the good thing about TBC except some nieche specs have a raidspott, mby you stack only certain of them but almost every spec has it’s purpose
It is also extremely misleading as for example warlocks might spec rather widely among the three trees considering that lower destro is subpar and what demon you end up sacrificing. Warlock is more like a class in TBC and less like a spec-confined role. Though I admit that few other classes are that less defined by their talent trees.
@@Stutzi152 SB destro is not viable but best. THe other specs especially in earlier tiers are doing just as well but then lag behind, still capable of competing with other specs and just fine to clear the raids.
@@adrianmlodzik7713 Dude you will able to kill muru with Poison SP rogues if you want too, it’s so fucking easy, but if you talk about tierlists there is nothing even similar to SB destro, because of the 20% Shadowdmg debuff, for fire actually being viable in raid you need a fire mage which if we go about best specs again you won’t have in raid
@@Stutzi152 Actually BM hunters are fairly similar in power so theres that. And im sure there will be raids with fire mages so there shouldnt be a problem.
Your tier list is different than other channels. I've been playing TBC on pservers for years and I disagree with your list. Resto druids have always been S tier because Lifebloom HoTs are ridiculously OP. There's a reason why resto druids are always at the top of the healing charts. They also have excellent utility. Ele shamans are A tier, Arcane mages are S tier, moonkin are B tier but lower than all the other B tier.
For all the people saying we just grabbed whatever we could find might have worked back then but now in modern times they gonna picked meta classes for raiding
Shadow priests do a sick load of damage not sure why everyone is sleeping on them. it’s only up from here boys. Fire mages should be a b or C honestly, with how scorch works fire only gets better the more fire mages you have, of course this takes away from your other s tier pics as well as the “need in raid” specs so mages eventually get sat. my guild when progressing in sunwell sat both our fire mages for a extra shaman and a spirit demo lock for the warlocks and spriests
Not sure I'd say shadow priests are the worst dps in a raid, I'd put them above ret pally, druid dps, and most of the melee dps for that matter at least until end of BT content.
There is a 870 dps difference between a Beastmaster and a Ret if that tells you anything. I would take one of each B, C, and D then 2 of A and stack S.
Classes are evenly matched in most part. About some of them imo. Prot pala is good but is nowhere near druid or warr when it comes to boss tanking. Rogues are on par with ret if the player knows what he's doing . I've seen rogues top the meters . Alot of ppl think that if u get the glaives ur gonna be top meter from them on but if u have no clue what ur doing u will stay at the bottom. Yes you can get glaives but guess what. Everyone else gets t6 and overall a spike in dps
One of the problems with ele shamans in early tier dps is that since your dps is so rng and therefore bursty, with no threat drop, you can have threat issues at the beginning of pulls. They Also have mana issues if you're trying to max dps because of the mana cost of chain lightning, especially on longer fights like gruuls. On the upside eles go LW from the start to get the LW ele set, so they not only provide hero but drums, too. Overall they're decent damage early but fall off in that regard, but remain in very high demand due to class utility buffs to the stronger caster dps classes. They're also very fun to play in dungeons because of chain lightning and hero. Decent at world farming because of their ability to mobtag when eles are contested. I could non stop farm water eles in terokkar for dozens of pulls in a row to the point that id often bully other classes out of the area, and decent at PvP contesting due to burst.
I mained an ele shaman in retail TBC, if you know how to gear they don't fall off as hard as people think. I was consistently top 4 in my guild through SSC, BT, and Sunwell.
S= Hunter, Lock A= Mage B= Shaman, Rogue C= Warrior, Druid, Shadow D= Retribution Special mention a Rogue with both Glaives and Dragonspine and played optimally is King. This is logged, tested, and proven just hit the wayback machine.
Let be more specific. S=Beastmaster, Destruction A= Fire Arcane(T5), Combat(glaives, dragonspine trophy) B=Elemental, Combat(non-glaives, ds trink) C=Arms, Fury, Boomkin, Feral, Frost, Assasination, Shadow, Retribution (Horde with pocket healer) D=Retribution(Alliance) D
@@CSSX80 there's no difference between Horde and Alliance Paladin now that they both get Seal of Blood. www.ign.com/articles/the-burning-crusade-classic-will-have-more-changes-than-original-wow-classic
The fact that Warlock isn't S tier shows me a lot. Their damage with a S Priest and E Shaman in the group is second to none except end game Hunter and Warrior with armor pen.
Hey Meta, kinda random but your accent sounds very similar to Alex Turner’s from the Arctic Monkeys. Maybe it’s my un-attuned American hearing and I’m way off, but are you from Sheffield or near there (that’s where he’s from)? UK accents are so interesting and varied, I could be super wrong lol
MetaGoblin welp, that’s my bad foreigner understanding of UK accents. Cumbria is closer to Scotland than it is to Sheffield right? I wasn’t even close haha
Also - your raid is full with just your A and B tiers, if you are doing one of each A tier and one of each B tier your your 25 raider team. Why include those descriptions at all if you weren't going to balance your rankings around them to give actual numbers to include?
I actually want to argue with u in terms of Subtitle Rogue, because of the Hemorhage. Yeah, you might say that 10 strikes easily will parish in few seconds, but hey - extra +42 damage per hit, especialy for Druid's are insane. If u have 2 rogues in raid Hemorrhage will be always on the target! Yeah in terms of single target DPS Sub rogue not better then Combat for obvious reason, but in terms of long distance average DPS of our melee member's was about 3-5% more. U are right that TBC is more distance DPS prefer patch, but if u have no options Subtitle is not that bad.
Hello ,thx for video . It was very helpfull. I have one question . Can I continue to play my classic lvl 60 character ?? Or new lvling proces needed ??
@M S wrong that's not how it works. Classic realms will be automatically converted to tbc with the option to transfer to a classic 60 capped realm if you want to stay 60.
yup, but the value of warlocks is increased by 15% in general making warlocks more powerful when paired with the debuff. I think you're correctly pointing out the erroneous math that was supposed to underline the huge increase.
Tanks (2): 2 X Druid or 2 X Paladin or one of each. Healers (8): 2 holy priests, 2 holy paladins, 1 resto druid 2 Resto shaman, 1 disc priest. DPS (15): 3-4 BM hunters, 3-4 Destro locks (what ever you have 3 of, you have 4 of the other), 3 ele shamans, 2 shadow priests, 1 survival hunter, 1 Boomkin, 1 enhancement, 1 arms warrior. 2-8-15 setup. You can argue for a few of these spots, but this feels about right. isn't Feral druid the strongest tank in TBC over all? best tank pre-raid, all the way to Tier 6, where the paladin and warrior finally catch up? that's what I read anyway. it was my understanding that warrior tanks get benched in TBC. hmmm...
You might need to read the mechanics of Illidan again to remember that he can't be tanked by a bear druid, at least not if you don't want your raid to suffer hard. So you need a decently geared warrior/paladin tank at least for that fight, which coincidentally is the hardest fight before Sunwell ;)
You can argue with a lot of things here, first of all you will need 3 tanks most of the time (some bosses even 4, can be the ret with OS tho) - So tanks (3) - 1 Paladin, 1 Druid and 1 Warrior, 2nd - you will never need 8 healers, most of the time 5 or 6 will be fine (mby even less with izy pizy Classic TBC difficulty) and those are 1 CoH/Spirit Priest, 1 RDruid, 1 Hpala, 2/3 Rshaman, 3rd DPS Spots - 1 Arms, 1 Rogue (yes for imp. exposed armor), 1 Enh, 1 Ret, 1 Ele shaman, 1 Boomi, 1/2 SP (dipends on the healer setup you can go 5 healer and 2SP or 6 healer 1 SP), 1 SV Hunter, 3/4 BM Hunter, 3/4 Destro WL (Mby 1 Affli if he knows what he is doing) and 1-3 Mages) ------- (3)-(5/6)-(16/17) purfect setup!
@@bigbobfox91 there is 1 rogue :) or I did put one, might have removed it, but yeah, the should have been 1, there is room for 1. and then take out a healer or something.
I'm a holy priest and hoping there's room for me and another priest I enjoy healing with. I'm willing to go shadow but damn I love healing and I can't wait to see if priest ends up beings more fun than shammy.
If you have another priest that goes shadow you will have a great time. Priests synergize so well with each other spec wise that it's hilarious people say to only bring a few of them. Stick with your priest and you'll have a great time.
I have two questions i hope you can answer. To ensure a raid spot as a Shadow Priest in TBC would it be worth it too roll a Draenei? (Have a lvl 60 Dwarf in Classic) Are there any new TBC private servers inc.? Just to mess around with before TBC classic is out :) Thanks in advance. Awesome videos!
@@buttonmashers7133 they get an instant big heal desperate prayer which is similar to lay on hands. They get chastise which is similar to hammer of justice And on top of that stone form Go look at the racials on wowwiki
@@buttonmashers7133 no, they don't. only humans and dwarves get Desperate Healing. all priests got fear ward though, so that's something. look up the wowwiki - don't spread misinformation.
Why would you take 2 prot warriors, 2 prot paladins and a bear?! Seems to me the 'bring 2 of these' and 'bring one of these' subscripts are nonsense ;)
Any race playing any competitive arena spec can achieve high rank. Is it better to be undead? Yeah, but it's not going to be the thing that makes or breaks you getting to high rank or not. Mace stun meta becomes a big thing in tbc for warriors so you have a slight edge against those comps that an undead wont have, but is rng dependent.
holy priest S tier from TK to Sunwell (circle of healing and prayer of healing are the 2 best healing spell for raid) enhancement S tier, one of the best DPS and one the best support for your melee,tank or hunter group at the same time.
Must admit, I have seen plenty of his videos and gave many likes, I give credit where its due but this one was a -1. Nobody is free from (construktive) critisism. Myself incl ofc :D
Reality is most raid nights you will just take whatever you can because the perfect raid night class setup isnt online due to work etc.
@@gregbrown1311 yeah it's the same every week for us now. Always a mix up of whoever is online and can raid at the time.
Attendance
I think you dont need the Ideal Setup. The nice Thing bout TBC is, you can Play whatever you want, everything is viable. But every UA-cam Pro Talk bout the BEST. I dont get it.
And after this Videos people wont Play hat they want to, they Play most DPS, Best Tank, Best Heal.
You don't raid in guilds that have consistent raid times with a consistent raid team?
@Liam Ashton As a 41yo gamer with family and other IRL things to deal with during the weeks, all I can say is, well said! +1
I dont remember any of this, we were just happy to enough people come online and can start the raid...
metaculture destroying everything as usual.
It’s still that way mostly. The meta is cool to think about and min/maxing a raid is important to the top tier guilds in the world. But for the rest of us that just wanna play and raid casually the meta is less important.
Some ppl get high when they are top dps heal and tank
@@knarf427 I like being top dps too but I would never reroll to a class I don't enjoy because it does more dps, or ignore inviting a class that does less dps than others to a dungeon or raid...
@@thorbeorn4295 That is only good to a certain level of play though. Once you reach a certain level, ignoring the meta is harmful to your group which isn't fair on the other players
Interesting to see this list now that we know the dmg capabilities each class can do. Like ele shaman actually being one of the worst dps in raids while ret paladins are abolute pumpers in single target. Fury warriors doing insane dmg (which nobody originally believed which is kind of insane to me). Arcane being the best caster dps, and warlocks being slightly lower than expected, and survivial hunters actually pumping really hard as well if they can consistently melee weave during the fight.
An Arms warrior's Blood Frenzy is only physical damage not ALL damage, and I am pretty sure it was a tooltip bug, and only affects melee attacks, rather than all physical damage
sorry for a month late response mate but all physical doesn't mean all damage, it means all melee + huntards
For a new player to WoW. This was great to watch. A lot of good info.
Its not accurate, there is a lot of wrong informatiob
Thanks, Boss! This Tier List is actually much more helpful than those looking only at throughput. I'll most likely lead a Raid myself and as I barely remember TBC this helps a lot with preparation for recruitment.
Can I join? 26M built good. Cute too.
love the music from Oblivion
You mean Harry Potter from ps1
@@Glonag yeah deffo kid
Power levels change A LOT between tiers. For instance with 2p T5 mages become top contender on the DPS metters, be it only for 1 tier. Also I am pretty sure that warglaives rogues will do competitive DPS as well.
So 3 Rogues on the server will be competitive, nice.
Rogues are gear hungry m8 . They do fine without warglaives . They are useful ppl don't take rogues because the players that roll rogue suck at the game . IDK why ppl complain about rogue anyway . They are op in pvp and can prolly get superior gear from arena
U confused assassination for combat rogue
Unfortunately due to many people only caring about DPS meters, most pugs will consider Ret dps and shadow dps to be D rank. I'm not sure why so many people ignore the utility of classes and only think about straight damage capabilities
Thats why you should join a good guild :) search until you find that guild that feels like a "family". otherwise you're in the wrong guild
Min/Maxing in WoW is pointless at character creation. Play what looks the best to you and spend your Min/Maxing time on endgame gear where it actually matters.
As someone who is 41yo and played about 6-7 MMOs with' WoW since closed/open betas on and off with breaks, all I can say is play what you want and what you enjoy the most.
Fun = longer time played with X class and Y spec = better geared = better ingame experience = less chance of reroll etc etc. I mean the super hardcore playerbase is what, 5% of the total? Even Kevin Jordan said that the hc represented like 0.3% in Vanilla who cleared Naxx. But many content creators trying to make it sound this is the regular norm. Sigh.
what about best spec that is geared
This list seems to be highly about early TBC not at all about late tbc state.
Yup. Rogue gets much better late game in PvE and frost mage struggles a bit more in PvP later at higher resilience making shatters smaller.
Yep, things change once you get into t5-t6. Mages start dropping off in sunwell. Locks just become better caster options all around by that point so you usually just bring the 1 mage. Enhance shamans get really strong by t6 as well. Rogues with glaives are competing with warlocks without problems against demon targets. Which is a lot of BT, and all of sunwell. Marks hunter although still kinda niche does strong dps once you get some good gear. My buddy mained marks and could compete for sure.
15% increased shadow damage from 3 warlocks is only a 15% bonus. not 45%
HAHAH would be Awesome :D
The way i understood his thought process was that, when 3 warlocks all get that 15% buff it equals the same as you would have 3.45 warlocks in your raid instead of just 3 but, yeah, in the end its still 15% overall dps increase.
You deserve way more subs than you have. quality content right here.
As a warrior who loves being arms a lot more than fury, this video made me very happy
Don’t get use to it cuz fury is still one of the top melee In tbc arms is ok but fury just out Dps arms anyday of the week
Is arms good in arena? That’s all I care about
@@matthewosterman9030 Arms is very good in arena..Arms is GOD in arena
@@matthewosterman9030 In Stormherald, We Trust
In Vanilla TBC we killed Archimonde in Hyjal with 1 paly tank, 3 BM hunters, and a Resto Shaman when the raid was current content. Your ranking of demo lock is a head scratcher. The FG does a shitload of damage. Its the best early lock spec until around 23% crit when you move onto full ruin/ds. Even after a good demo lock will be close to the top of damage following BM hunters and destro. The only hurdle with demo is pet heals and when you get 2 pc tier 5 and bribing a paly/druid healer friend to make a target macro to spot heal your pet for mana pot payments. It will do VERY well. its a crazy strong spec to play! For those of us who have PLAYED TBC we know this to be a fact! >8)
what’s the actual spec tho?:)
Okay, but that dps is ruined any time the FG can’t get behind the target. That being said, top warlock dps in TBC t4 was actually affliction, but the skill cap with that spec is much higher. Just because you saw one demo lock near the top doesn’t mean that demo is strong. I remember seeing rogues top damage in t4 on some pulls, but that doesn’t mean that the rogue competes with a warlock if they are equally geared and skilled players.
For those of us that actually do the math and have the ability to properly evaluate data, we know that the true best dps spec, as the stated goal for this video, is in fact not demo ever, unless you want to count locks without gear or skill
Yo say retail TBC not Vanilla TBC.
@@hado33_ most people on private servers play melee and just burst shit down so...
Rogues: Combat maces/sword with Dragonstrike is BiS untill glaives - any Rogue doing PvE will be BS and LW crafting the maces as there is nothing comparable, the spec is a hybrid mace/sword spec with a sword OH
6:30 OMGGG man the nostalgia hit soo hard this is harry potter music from the old games, ain't it?
I used to be copy from 60 camp, but after this I hope they start fresh servers to give everyone a fair chance with rerolls and the economy. Pallys/Shaman also getting a fair chance to get to end game with everyone else. The economy seriously needs a reset and hopefully a better bot detection system. I would definitely eat the reroll if it means a better server life. Short term pain for long term gain.
Same, even though from the start i thought fresh servers are the best idea from the game integrity PoV. At least when TBC servers are open we will have month or two of decent economy ...
Taking away what people have grinded in Classic is just unfair and in the long run hurts integrity of the game. When u do that people will play way less next expansions beceause they have no guarantee they will keep what they achieved. U say a fresh chance is fair, i don't know how is it fair on people who sunk days into leveling alts in Classic or grinded gold and items like TF or T3 sets. Maybe u can set a pretty high gold cap for transfer like atleast 10k and probably more like 50k or even 100k so there is no way it can affect 99% of playerbase but u can't take away people's characters and items.
@@Mason1968PL But when you think about it...no one promise you TBC to begin with , Blizzard is not obligated to do so, it is your own wish and nothing more then that.
@@Mason1968PL There not taking it away are they? I hear this arguement all the time, blizz never promised you tbc.. they promised you classic, if they create fresh tbc servers and not progressive you still have that gold on classic..
"It's not fair that I can't take all my gold and my gear into tbc" why isn't it fair? Noone promised you progressive tbc nor progressive servers.. they promised you classic wow.. and you have it.. if they create stand alone TBC servers you still have your gear and your gold?
Combat Sword rogues, played correctly, and with enough haste pots, the DST from Gruhl, well timed wind fury from a shaman, and stacking hit to the hit cap - would typically lead DPS in most single target boss fights until almost Mount Hyjal. The mistake folks made with them was not understanding that most damage with a rogue comes from (1) white damage from never letting slice and dice drop (2) DOT from keeping rupture up at 5 dots at all times (3) DOT from deadly poison on your offhand. if you are playing this right you should be doing well over 1K on tank and spank bosses by the time you have a few pieces of T-4. Also, the most important rogue rule of all for DPS - don't fucking die.
well timed windfury ? WELL TIMED? you know the totem is dropped and it is there for the whole duration of the fight?
Rogues are good at DPS ppl that play them suck usually that's the only issue
I'd have loved to have some sort of debate between IDS & deep holy priest - but seeing them as a 2 of, I would assume that one is from both specs ^^ Great video as always mate, cheers!
You take one IDS, 1-2 deep holy
Man out here really not talking about the strongest tank.... Tank Shamans
I'm actually interested how shaman tanking is going to work if rockbiter gets nerfed to the ground, you can't spec into parry without losing a massive amount of threat, and earth shock no longer generates threat
@@2Pish I thought the earth shock threat gets nerfed in Wrath.
@@TheUnknownOtaku google burning crusade shaman spells, idk
Tank Shamans will never be a thing in raid due to how hard you'll get hit.
@@2Pish Earth Shock don't generate threat anymore but Frost Shock replace it, the hight amount of threat is just switched between the two
the time when warlock demo was a thing, enhance / elem shaman was great, no fuking dk and dh and monk. Best period of my life on wow.
enhance and ele shamans are doing well in shadowlands too
I really like the way this guy says "Dungeons"
'Doongins'
"Boofs"
12:21 Subelty
The best part about this is the oblivion music in the background 🖤
Could you do a video showing what changed for classes as patches where released? Like what classes for better and which got worse on the latest patch that TBC classic will be released in
I remember my ret pally being my main alt that got a huge buff going into patch 2.2 or so. I had mostly t6 gear and still wasn't all that good beforehand. When the big sunwell nerf (along with that buff I assume) came I was competing for best dps on every single boss.
Finally will be able to play BM again! Yesss!!
Idk I love MM. I guess gotta wait for WOTLK
@@SullenJazzhands i do think that Chimera shot and overall talents makes MM really strong at least from what I tried. Also remember that volley is spammable!
Some of the information is incorrect in this vid. Must only have private server experience.
Your voice totally mellows me out. You got a weapon for the ladies, dude :)
Pause
@@drew8267 XD
KappaPride
Cmon Jhon!!! I always rooted for the Terminator anyways...
If I remember correctly, demonology spec is good early, but the gear scales better with the other specs
15 % shadow weaving bonus for 3 locks is not 45% increase, that's not how percentage works lol
Resto druid is a tier in tbc IMO. Bloom alone puts them there. I don’t even play resto.
warr and rogues do good dmg providing the boss mechanics allow it. It's not that they do bad dps, it's just that so many mechanics favours ranged. But if they can stand and pump on a boss, they are very good.
They do bad dps till you get top end gear. My holy priest at lv60 in starting outland gear is doing the same numbers with smite as my 70 rogue.
You're wrong about the rogue spec icons. The knife to the throat is assassination, while the big bloody sword is combat.
We have to agree that we all love boomkins. Thank you gentelmen!
It really depends on the gear, by the last two teirs rogues with warglavies are on top very close second are fury warriors and so you will see raids that are packed full of them. The early raids are a cake walk anyway so really no need to ever stack hunters and warlocks but without extremely good gear the melee heavy raids do have a slower harder time early on, so I am sure you will see the guilds going for world firsts do the first couple of clears as ranged and then split raid with alts to gear the melee ready for later teirs.
BTW there is a very very good chance that a fury warrior or rogue will be top dps in even the early raid teirs in hardcore groups this is because there is infact much better pre raid physical damage melee equiptment from crafting and dungeons than caster.
You never see ''raids packed full of them'' as first you need to aquire the damn claives and they are pretty rare. On top of that, i would argue that its a minority group who clears the raid to begin with.
"It's a 15% increase to shadow damage, with 3 warlocks that is a 45% increase in damage from those warlocks."
That is not how percentages work. It's just 15%.
45% of 1 warlock dmg is the end result. depends how you you look at it. Each warlock doin extra 15% dmg, add this all together you get 45% of power added on top of the pack of 3. Other words, you started with 3 warlocks, now you got 3.45 warlocks. Or 15% total damage increase. I guess its a backwards way of looking things but there it is.
i have to agree BM hunter is S Tier
BM hunter begins to rule in pvp and pve starting of TBC expansion
14 years ago my hunter facepalm the keyboard and pressing 3 buttons can easily be top dps
I had a BM Hunter with a one-button hold Macro that owned lol....Huntards
11:30 *grabs assass* I presume this is combat spec
Rogues:
Am I a joke to you 🗡👁👄👁🗡
So good to see all Classic meta specs at the bottom. Can't wait for TBC. That will be a fresh meta :)
So now you stack ranged dps instead of melee and throw in some support here and there just like it is in Classic. Doesn't sound too fresh to me
@@chocrikir655 Well. No class comes even close to being as overpowered as Warriors are in classic. So that alone is a huge plus.
@@stupidcomment6571 I get your point, although I can never agree on calling Warriors op when something like Mages exist :P I mean, ya, Warrior is king of dps and best tanking class, but pretty much sucks in every other part of the game, be it leveling, farming, solo PvP etc. So I think it is actually ok, that they are top tier in raids. Mage, on the other hand, just dominates all of these categories and is still insanely good in raids. So yeah... If I had to choose a topdog in Classic it would not be Warrior :P
@@chocrikir655 No because you literally can't stack more than 3 of anything. if you stack more than 2 you are probably hurting your overall raid performance. More than 3 then unless you are switching for every encounter, you're definitely going to underperform. This is completely different to the Classic meta of "as many as we can find" for Warriors.
@@dairallan You are not wrong, but the main reason for that is the cut to 25. You basically get in all the important support/tank/healing roles and stack the best dps for the rest of slots. In Classic there are a few less supporter that actually matter, so getting in things like Shadow or Enhancer is definately refreshing. But other than that you still stack the best dps, but there are less spots to fill them with, so you rarely see more than 3 of each. If TBC was 40, we would also see all these extra 15 spots filled with Hunter/Warlock
I remember how we "needed" an enhancement shaman. Cause me being elemental i would steal the enhancement shamans stormstrike stacks 🤣
Wait you can do that ? Lol
@@internetalpha5173 yea iirc it applied 2 stacks of 20%? nature damage taken to the target but i think rouges could also steal some of these stacks with poisions
You forgot about the strong buff disc priest bring, the improved divine spirit. Id put them B or C.
No, because there is 23/38/0 spec. Priests will play before swapping to CoH so for raiding disci just doesn’t exist and don’t try to make it happeb
IDS priests are still holy, they just drop coh for ids.
You already had my attention and appreciation for keeping this list clear and concise, but you earned my sub with 'Bob's your uncle.' Well done, sir.
Hyjal you will want a prot paladin for sure, makes the trashwaves so much easier.
Just play what ever you enjoy, even if that means your fav class is at the bottom of the list. Now adays everyone get court on just playing s or a tier class, btw love your videos man keep it up
I was one of the top dps on my server using mm hunter in TBC. It may be niche, but its not awful.
I don’t like tiering specs in TBC, because that’s the good thing about TBC except some nieche specs have a raidspott, mby you stack only certain of them but almost every spec has it’s purpose
It is also extremely misleading as for example warlocks might spec rather widely among the three trees considering that lower destro is subpar and what demon you end up sacrificing. Warlock is more like a class in TBC and less like a spec-confined role. Though I admit that few other classes are that less defined by their talent trees.
@@Afaslizo What? There is basically only SB destro viable, mby one Ruin/Afflilock
@@Stutzi152 SB destro is not viable but best. THe other specs especially in earlier tiers are doing just as well but then lag behind, still capable of competing with other specs and just fine to clear the raids.
@@adrianmlodzik7713 Dude you will able to kill muru with Poison SP rogues if you want too, it’s so fucking easy, but if you talk about tierlists there is nothing even similar to SB destro, because of the 20% Shadowdmg debuff, for fire actually being viable in raid you need a fire mage which if we go about best specs again you won’t have in raid
@@Stutzi152 Actually BM hunters are fairly similar in power so theres that. And im sure there will be raids with fire mages so there shouldnt be a problem.
Thanks for the video I found this to be very helpful.
Your tier list is different than other channels. I've been playing TBC on pservers for years and I disagree with your list. Resto druids have always been S tier because Lifebloom HoTs are ridiculously OP. There's a reason why resto druids are always at the top of the healing charts. They also have excellent utility. Ele shamans are A tier, Arcane mages are S tier, moonkin are B tier but lower than all the other B tier.
he made tiers based on how many do u need per raid
@@ayoubbenlarbi3564 He even says so and it says so on the tier list itself. Reading is hard :b
Gonna stick to shaman heals thanks for the info though
For all the people saying we just grabbed whatever we could find might have worked back then but now in modern times they gonna picked meta classes for raiding
Shadow priests do a sick load of damage not sure why everyone is sleeping on them. it’s only up from here boys. Fire mages should be a b or C honestly, with how scorch works fire only gets better the more fire mages you have, of course this takes away from your other s tier pics as well as the “need in raid” specs so mages eventually get sat. my guild when progressing in sunwell sat both our fire mages for a extra shaman and a spirit demo lock for the warlocks and spriests
Not sure I'd say shadow priests are the worst dps in a raid, I'd put them above ret pally, druid dps, and most of the melee dps for that matter at least until end of BT content.
There is a 870 dps difference between a Beastmaster and a Ret if that tells you anything. I would take one of each B, C, and D then 2 of A and stack S.
Classes are evenly matched in most part. About some of them imo. Prot pala is good but is nowhere near druid or warr when it comes to boss tanking. Rogues are on par with ret if the player knows what he's doing . I've seen rogues top the meters . Alot of ppl think that if u get the glaives ur gonna be top meter from them on but if u have no clue what ur doing u will stay at the bottom. Yes you can get glaives but guess what. Everyone else gets t6 and overall a spike in dps
I don’t know why people hate on Ret pally so much like it isn’t 2006 anymore any class can be good if you get gear and know how to play it
One of the problems with ele shamans in early tier dps is that since your dps is so rng and therefore bursty, with no threat drop, you can have threat issues at the beginning of pulls.
They Also have mana issues if you're trying to max dps because of the mana cost of chain lightning, especially on longer fights like gruuls.
On the upside eles go LW from the start to get the LW ele set, so they not only provide hero but drums, too.
Overall they're decent damage early but fall off in that regard, but remain in very high demand due to class utility buffs to the stronger caster dps classes. They're also very fun to play in dungeons because of chain lightning and hero. Decent at world farming because of their ability to mobtag when eles are contested. I could non stop farm water eles in terokkar for dozens of pulls in a row to the point that id often bully other classes out of the area, and decent at PvP contesting due to burst.
I mained an ele shaman in retail TBC, if you know how to gear they don't fall off as hard as people think. I was consistently top 4 in my guild through SSC, BT, and Sunwell.
S= Hunter, Lock
A= Mage
B= Shaman, Rogue
C= Warrior, Druid, Shadow
D= Retribution
Special mention a Rogue with both Glaives and Dragonspine and played optimally is King. This is logged, tested, and proven just hit the wayback machine.
Let be more specific.
S=Beastmaster, Destruction
A= Fire Arcane(T5), Combat(glaives, dragonspine trophy)
B=Elemental, Combat(non-glaives, ds trink)
C=Arms, Fury, Boomkin, Feral, Frost, Assasination, Shadow, Retribution (Horde with pocket healer)
D=Retribution(Alliance)
D
Oh survival is B or C gear dependent whether they are stacking lions eye gems or not but their buff is needed.
@@CSSX80 there's no difference between Horde and Alliance Paladin now that they both get Seal of Blood. www.ign.com/articles/the-burning-crusade-classic-will-have-more-changes-than-original-wow-classic
@@chocol8milkman750 they still will only do 800 dps it's been tested
"Stacked Class"
(Elemental Shaman)
You proberly want ONE at your raid party.
KEKW.
The fact that Warlock isn't S tier shows me a lot. Their damage with a S Priest and E Shaman in the group is second to none except end game Hunter and Warrior with armor pen.
"Second to none except end game Hunter and Warrior with armor pen" - it is called third.
This is probably why warlock IS S tier.
The only thing I don't agree is Prot Paladin not in Tier S. Yes I'm bias XD
Solid dude, great overview
Feral Druid is the best class by far, so many options and you get bird form for those farmers.
Tauren to guarantee you steal thag herb node then fly away
Bob is indeed my uncle.
hes actually my dad, People lied to me all my life. but I knew.
Hey Meta, kinda random but your accent sounds very similar to Alex Turner’s from the Arctic Monkeys. Maybe it’s my un-attuned American hearing and I’m way off, but are you from Sheffield or near there (that’s where he’s from)? UK accents are so interesting and varied, I could be super wrong lol
Ooof I'm not from Sheffield although I used to live in Manchester for a year. I'm actually Cumbrian born and bred. Grew up in Windermere.
MetaGoblin welp, that’s my bad foreigner understanding of UK accents. Cumbria is closer to Scotland than it is to Sheffield right? I wasn’t even close haha
Also - your raid is full with just your A and B tiers, if you are doing one of each A tier and one of each B tier your your 25 raider team. Why include those descriptions at all if you weren't going to balance your rankings around them to give actual numbers to include?
Remember just because you are a bloodlust bot doesnt mean you are a good shaman
Big true
so with a shaman i wont get alot of gear right? as alot will play it?
Think I am going to play a Enhancement Shaman this time around.
I actually want to argue with u in terms of Subtitle Rogue, because of the Hemorhage. Yeah, you might say that 10 strikes easily will parish in few seconds, but hey - extra +42 damage per hit, especialy for Druid's are insane. If u have 2 rogues in raid Hemorrhage will be always on the target! Yeah in terms of single target DPS Sub rogue not better then Combat for obvious reason, but in terms of long distance average DPS of our melee member's was about 3-5% more. U are right that TBC is more distance DPS prefer patch, but if u have no options Subtitle is not that bad.
Hello ,thx for video . It was very helpfull. I have one question . Can I continue to play my classic lvl 60 character ?? Or new lvling proces needed ??
@M S wrong that's not how it works. Classic realms will be automatically converted to tbc with the option to transfer to a classic 60 capped realm if you want to stay 60.
Does this mean rogues suck? Feelsbadman i just been lvling 1-60 and now i see that rogues are D tier wtf
rogues get opop in later tiers of tbc don’t worry :)))
Shadow weaving: 15% dmg increase X 3 warlocks is still just 15%, not 45%.
yup, but the value of warlocks is increased by 15% in general making warlocks more powerful when paired with the debuff. I think you're correctly pointing out the erroneous math that was supposed to underline the huge increase.
Tanks (2): 2 X Druid or 2 X Paladin or one of each.
Healers (8): 2 holy priests, 2 holy paladins, 1 resto druid 2 Resto shaman, 1 disc priest.
DPS (15): 3-4 BM hunters, 3-4 Destro locks (what ever you have 3 of, you have 4 of the other), 3 ele shamans, 2 shadow priests, 1 survival hunter, 1 Boomkin, 1 enhancement, 1 arms warrior.
2-8-15 setup. You can argue for a few of these spots, but this feels about right.
isn't Feral druid the strongest tank in TBC over all? best tank pre-raid, all the way to Tier 6, where the paladin and warrior finally catch up? that's what I read anyway. it was my understanding that warrior tanks get benched in TBC. hmmm...
You might need to read the mechanics of Illidan again to remember that he can't be tanked by a bear druid, at least not if you don't want your raid to suffer hard. So you need a decently geared warrior/paladin tank at least for that fight, which coincidentally is the hardest fight before Sunwell ;)
You can argue with a lot of things here, first of all you will need 3 tanks most of the time (some bosses even 4, can be the ret with OS tho) - So tanks (3) - 1 Paladin, 1 Druid and 1 Warrior, 2nd - you will never need 8 healers, most of the time 5 or 6 will be fine (mby even less with izy pizy Classic TBC difficulty) and those are 1 CoH/Spirit Priest, 1 RDruid, 1 Hpala, 2/3 Rshaman, 3rd DPS Spots - 1 Arms, 1 Rogue (yes for imp. exposed armor), 1 Enh, 1 Ret, 1 Ele shaman, 1 Boomi, 1/2 SP (dipends on the healer setup you can go 5 healer and 2SP or 6 healer 1 SP), 1 SV Hunter, 3/4 BM Hunter, 3/4 Destro WL (Mby 1 Affli if he knows what he is doing) and 1-3 Mages) ------- (3)-(5/6)-(16/17) purfect setup!
@@bigbobfox91 there is 1 rogue :) or I did put one, might have removed it, but yeah, the should have been 1, there is room for 1. and then take out a healer or something.
@@Stutzi152 makes sense, so my numbers were slightly off :D
I'm a holy priest and hoping there's room for me and another priest I enjoy healing with. I'm willing to go shadow but damn I love healing and I can't wait to see if priest ends up beings more fun than shammy.
If you have another priest that goes shadow you will have a great time. Priests synergize so well with each other spec wise that it's hilarious people say to only bring a few of them. Stick with your priest and you'll have a great time.
I'm so rolling a Shadow Priest
I have two questions i hope you can answer. To ensure a raid spot as a Shadow Priest in TBC would it be worth it too roll a Draenei? (Have a lvl 60 Dwarf in Classic) Are there any new TBC private servers inc.? Just to mess around with before TBC classic is out :) Thanks in advance. Awesome videos!
Just stay dwarf man they are the best alliance priest all round anyway
@@buttonmashers7133 just look at racials
they get a mini lay on hands
mini hand of justice
stoneform
treasurefinding
@@buttonmashers7133 they get an instant big heal desperate prayer which is similar to lay on hands.
They get chastise which is similar to hammer of justice
And on top of that stone form
Go look at the racials on wowwiki
Go undead. Alliance population will decrease by half to one-third of what it was in vanilla. Horde racials are just too insane to pass up.
@@buttonmashers7133 no, they don't. only humans and dwarves get Desperate Healing. all priests got fear ward though, so that's something. look up the wowwiki - don't spread misinformation.
Why would you take 2 prot warriors, 2 prot paladins and a bear?! Seems to me the 'bring 2 of these' and 'bring one of these' subscripts are nonsense ;)
Will i be able to make a blood elf when tbc drops if i dont have a max character? I dont play classic atm
You can level a blood elf during TBC pre patch release.
Hi man, cool videos! What do you think if I am an orc warlock in SLSL and not an undead, can I get a high rank in tbc, like a gladiator?
Any race playing any competitive arena spec can achieve high rank. Is it better to be undead? Yeah, but it's not going to be the thing that makes or breaks you getting to high rank or not. Mace stun meta becomes a big thing in tbc for warriors so you have a slight edge against those comps that an undead wont have, but is rng dependent.
Gladiator isn't that hard to achieve, pretty much every spec could do that if you played it correctly. Rank 1 is another story.
@@samwise1790 no Orc is better
holy priest S tier from TK to Sunwell (circle of healing and prayer of healing are the 2 best healing spell for raid)
enhancement S tier, one of the best DPS and one the best support for your melee,tank or hunter group at the same time.
Disc priest is much stronger than you think...
Also holy ins't that great because of the extremely high mana cost of spells
Holy smacks disc, especially once u have ur mooncloth set. That said, as a holy priest gm/rl I'm definitely recruiting a dedicated disc for ids and ps
BM hunter was god in TBC and combat rogues with high haste gear
I quit when he said the classes value dont change through tiers...... good bye lol
he is talking bullshit after bullshit :D
Must admit, I have seen plenty of his videos and gave many likes, I give credit where its due but this one was a -1. Nobody is free from (construktive) critisism. Myself incl ofc :D
How do u mean tbc ?? I started classic
I truly hope Blizz Releases Pre Nerf content. Kara will be cleared within a week by guilds who nonstop farm rep drums
if they could go in instandly, they would clear it day one, not hard
Combat rogue D tier and assassination C? Are you high?
Crazy how he put fury as C tier yet they topped dps almost all expac
Did they tho 🤣
@@MetaGoblin single target and cleave until someone found the bm hunter melee weave script
11:33
Are we talking about SL right now? OH, wait, sorry! You said melee DPS is needed... We must be discussing TBC.
for pvp ret pally just painful, who can you kill 1vs1, a poorly geared rogue？
In tbc what race would be best for destro warlock
I hate what whales become do you remember the first time around how happy work to get that bow for your Hunter from all that axe from r f k
Does anyone understand what this guy was trying to say? I sure as shit don't.
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 exactly my thoughts 😂😂😂
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 i have no idea lmao
Gotta wonder though, are they gonna release TBC with spell power able scale poison damage? if so then could be really interesting
man i think you are confused rogues are the best dps in tbc first class to break over 4k dps in sunwell
Do you watched the video at all? He said the Tier list changes in later phases...
I did pretty awesome DPS with MM hunter back in the day
ur spamming the same video
You got the combat and assassination emblems mixed up.
in Eidolon #2 guild on H-Trollbane we ran 2-4 rogues and some of us regularly beat the hunter n locks 8)
Okay boomer
Can't decide if I wanna run a warlock or a paladin.