I think it really depends on the teacher. I've been in some more informal classes where the teacher cares less about rank than progression so he'll rank people where they're at. If someone is very gifted and athletic and has previous experience AND can explain the ideas and theories then they'll be ranked to a high level pretty quick. In the same vein if you get kind of stuck ideologically you can get stuck at a rank for quite a while. I've seen some people do well and then get stuck at orange belt for like 3 years and they really are just moving at that level and then something will click and they move on. Alternatively some people come in and they get it immediately and they get brown within like 5 months. It's about whatever the end goal is of the system you're in. If it's about tradition ending in total mastery of a strict curriculum then absolutely you wouldn't skip rank because that's important. If it's about showing basic competency in certain areas then that's a different story for a different system.
I actually skipped 4 belts and 1 belts later since I had trained for years in another system. But, my sensei also mentioned that he could not let me skip more belts since I need time before the black belt. My experience can be traced back to my high school time. Later, I stopped training for years after college. Years ago, I picked up martial art again. However, my school shutdown permanently. Then, I moved to the current system. It is probably because my background, my sensei let me skip belts twice. Just like what the video said, martial art is not just memorizing material. It needs time to be mature. After years I feel that I can understand these material better than when I was in high school and college. Ages may also help my martial art.
It depends. I’m a 3rd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do and competed heavily. When I started Taekwondo the instructor gave me the opportunity to jump up to Brown Belt from White. The two styles are very similar and for me to be in an entry level classes didn’t make sense considering I was knocking around his Black Belts.
My karate journey started in the 80s. If a student or their parents requested to skip a grading they would have been laughed out of the dojo. A traditional martial art that holds its roots deep in the philosophy of the development character, through discipline, hard work and patience, has no room for ego and entitlement. We were kids doing push ups on our knuckles on hard wooden floors, sweating for our next grades. These days it seems like people are given a belt just for showing up. It’s sad…
What if he is better than most of the higher belts? When I did bjj i was around brown/purple belt level and I used to run circles around all the blue belts but they wouldn't promote me lol. I had done judo for around 5 years at that point so of course I was better.
Go back far enough and there was no such thing as talent rankings or "belts". About the only thing acknowledged was seniority of time with the teacher.
most modern martial arts are business ventures. BJJ and Krav Maga seem to get the most Publicity, but that doesn't necessarily make them the most Effective. I couldn't see myself teaching Secret Techniques to a morally un-sound person, just for money. However, I could teach them General Kickboxing techniques..
It’s pretty much up to the teacher. I say that because there is no law, meaning that the fuzz isn’t gonna come crashing through your front door. This reminds me of my Choy Li Fut master. He told me that when he started training in the 50s, students started out with the black sash and got the white at instructor level as a sign of purity. But when he started his own school in the 60s he switched it to starting at white and ending at black to avoid confusion with the Japanese and Korean arts.
One thing that may be an issue is the perception that rank is something earned like money - that you can keep it as long as want it. The rank is earned, but it's a snapshot into the skills represented at that time. A black belt who hasn't been practicing for 20 years isn't representative of those who practice currently. I can relate as I was a tkd practitioner for years... in the 80's! Did a couple years in early 2000's (tkd and judo). This week I started at a shotokan school and though I knew, in my memory, a lot of what was being taught in class... my old body wasn't there. I have no issue starting as a white belt again. My body has to be trained again. It'll be a fun journey. I don't train to impress- I train for me. For health and for fun. I don't represent black belt skill today... but I'll get there.
The Journey Don't short change yourself (or others) of the full experience. Do things properly (Experimenting and being too creative can be a big time waster) gain experience first. Your seniors should have done these things already and can warn you. The Path Ahead (The Good Instructor) Someone who is experienced and you trust. Knows your level and teaches what you need but also gives you a clear path to the future. (Sets an example and shows what's possible) You can then work towards your goal with confidence. The Research Stage (University Thesis and PhD) As a senior this will happen and takes up a lot of (a life) time, effort and money. Star Trek Future (...now to the short cut in life) Gain what you can from seniors. It's decades of work. People will be far more capable thanks to those ahead of us. (Newton Quote “If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.”)
I have seen students been skipped a rank and I myself was skipped ranks because we were either previously trained in other styles for a long period which made it easier to pick up the Goju material or have done Goju for a number of years (my case), and we accepted it because our teachers realized that we have a deeper understanding of the material. Thanks for your input on this. And what can be an acceptable reason to skip over ranks and what are not
Having prior experience definitely can open a path for faster advancement. A lot of people think it's just a matter of reading ahead or memorizing material, and it's definitely not, nor should it be.
@artofonedojo I had the same thing with promotion. I had fought like a dog and went above and beyond to earn a legit and fairly ridiculous 3rd Dan in Judo. Last year, one of my old sensei developed cancer, he was 98 and promoted me to 4th Dan. He said it was for dedication, teaching etc. I believe it was due to his health and years and not knowing what the future might hold. I accepted it knowing the above, with the hope that I would eventually grow into it. Similarly to yourself, I told myself that it's one man's subjective opinion. I can't out right say he's wrong. Its an opinion, nothing more or less. At some point though I will feel the need to do a few trials and tribulations to ratify the rank to myself though. In short. I can relate.
I trained in Tang Soo Do / SBD for about 6 years (2nd Gup) [I still practice though!], so now going into Taekwondo, the master just put me at same belt rank and told me to catch up since the skills are already there. I'm the only case where I've heard such a thing, but granted the styles are similar and the forms are pretty much the same so makes sense.
That's actually a common thing, instructors letting you keep your belt but then you have to go back and catch up. I've seen that a lot and that's fine, as long as that's the instructors idea. Generally respect would be to wear a white belt, but if the instructor is good with it, than that's totally fine and makes sense.
@@ArtofOneDojo Definitely. I specifically even told him that I would be down to start at white belt, but the arts are so similar there wasn’t much of a point, it’s just a matter of a couple of movement differences and one steps lol
Such good points, Dan! I try to instill in my students the goal should be to become better, not collecting rank belts. A lot of parents don't get it, unless they are martial artists too. For myself, I actually technically skipped brown belt 2 and 1 after making brown belt and tested for my Shodan. But that wasn't really skipping as I learned the material for Brown 2 and 1 and held my brown belt the same amount of time as I would have if I had done those extra tests. Our dojo didn't do anything like stripes to indicate rank, so it really didn't matter. I saved money which helped go to the more expensive Shodan test which included the traditional kanji/katakana embroidered Shureido obi.
To me, the belt system has always been a symbol of "status and rank in a particular school" but not necessarily a practitioner's skill level in their particular field. In the FMA (Filipino martial arts), which is my preferred fighting system, Instead of belts, titles such as "Guro" (teacher), "Punong Guro" (head teacher), "Lakan" (a title for advanced practitioners, often translated as "knight" or "warrior"), and "Datu" (chief) were used to signify rank and status within the system. These titles indicated a practitioner's level of expertise and their role within the FMA community. From what I understand of karate, judo, taekwondo and other "traditional" martial arts. The color belt system, as commonly known in modern martial arts was introduced by Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, in the late 19th century. Kano's system used colored belts to signify different ranks and levels of proficiency. In Okinawan martial arts, particularly Karate, the color belt system was adopted later, largely due to the influence of Judo and its ranking system. Gichin Funakoshi, who is credited with popularizing Karate in Japan, adopted the colored belt system in the 1920s to help standardize the ranking process. Before this, Okinawan martial arts typically used a more informal ranking system based on the instructor's judgment and the student's skill level.
O' Sensei Dan, you made some good points in your video. You know my karate journey and all my struggles. And I recently was honored as a Grandmaster. However, during my karate journey in 1985 while in the Navy (before getting into American Kenpo in 1987), I did skip a rank in Shuri Ryu Karate instead of going for my Purple belt I went straight for my 1st Brown. I did not make it home after my Lebanon tour return in 1984 and when I finally came home on leave for Christmas1985, I skipped a rank. It was the only rank I ever skipped though. And after that I had gaps in my promotions due to my Naval Career and many ailments and injuries I overcame. But I never quit and now made it to Grandmaster. Hai. Grandmaster K, MA
I was fortunate to train under John Graden, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, & Michael Anderson of WAKO. Earning my 1st Dan from Anderson in 2004 in American TKD. Then 2nd, 3rd, & 5th throughout the years following. My under-belts were white, yellow, orange, green, blue, red, & brown belt every 3 - 4 months. I not only attended my regular classes but the underbelt classes as well to keep sharp with all the materials. Keep in mind that I was 41 when I started. All the while competing in both the NASKA but ISKA as well to hone my skills. I adamantly oppose skipping belts. You know just as well that the McDojo’s give rank as if they were candy. And then there are the websites you buy a black belt for 150.00. I call them “paper black belts”. Thanks Mr. Dan, spot on.
Very impressive lineage! I was an instructor with Tracy's back in the day when Lewis was working for them. He gave seminars for the instructors, and I was lucky enough to learn material from him that he had learned from Bruce Lee. Works well to this day. Best!
I agree with you with one exception. At the lower ranks (and all ranks to a degree) it is about the amount of time you spend learning and practicing. So, if you're only coming to class, not really practicing outside of class, etc., then absolutely no skipping. However, if you're putting in extra time, adding in private lessons, being taught/shown things to advance, then I think you can earn two belts in one test. Example, when I first started, I had spent two years watching my kids. Intellectually I knew the material. I started maybe a month before belt testing. 4 months later at the second opportunity to test, interested for two belts because I had been taught the material and my body had caught up with my mind/knowledge. I also was in an adult class that had white to Green/black (the lower 9 ranks+white belts in our 12 rank system). So I was able to learn and do things that were beyond my rank because others in the small adult class were already doing them. As a result I learned and advanced much quicker than the other adults, but outside of that first "skip" I never tested for more than one belt until the Pandemic. But again, that was more because no one was allowed to test when they should have and so some students tested for two belts.
You bring up great points, and I'm a little more in favor of speeding up the material if the student can grasp it instead of skipping. I personally don't like skipping because even if you know the material intellectually, there should still be some dedicated focused hands on time with it, even if it's abbreviated.
@@ArtofOneDojo completely agree. The one other exception I knew that make would be coming from a different school or style that has similarities. You would still test through the ranks in some fashion, but wouldn't have to spend the same amount of time in each rank. For my example, my style is blended and has a lot of similarities to Shotokan. I could probably go to a Shotokan dojo and test through several ranks after only a few months because if the similarities. Also, an advantage our system has, is each belt test you are re-tested on all previous material as well as your new material. So, when I say I literally tested foe two belts at once, I just tested foe the higher belt, this earning both because I was required to show the same skills as the lower rank to get the higher rank.
Our dojo didn't give away free belts and sometimes I wondered if my instructors awarded ranks only if students were better than the majority of other dojos' students. It wasn't uncommon for our instructors to sit students down after training and tell them they weren't ready yet. One day after a training I asked our sensei why he kept nagging about minuscule stuff and he said "you 3 are among the students I'd like to bring to tournaments one day". That happened almost 20 years ago but it still remember it clearly and I've tried to live by the wisdom behind it ever since.
I trained in Kenpo on and off for many years. Generally, at the school I started with, a "normal person" who was committed made rank about once a year give or take. So generally about a ten year journey to black. After my instructor moved away I went to a completely different Kenpo school. I met with the head instructor I mentioned where I had previously studied. He asked how I felt about being a white belt again, I was fine with it. The art was different however much of the basics were the same and within a month I was moved up to yellow. Then I decided to move on. I don't think "skipping rank" is appropriate. If your a black belt in a similar style (striking art or a grappling art) chances are you will pick up the similar art very fast, so just move up fast. But there will be differences and you owe it to yourself to learn those differences.
One time in my school there was this mom who straight up bought her kid an orange belt without our instructors' approval, and she wanted them to let him wear it. One of my instructors then said "Well, if he can't do the material the other orange belts do, then he can wear the belt, but he's staying in the group he was in before."
our school skipped one student ever from yellow to green, over orange belt, but we figured we'd just get him on the back end because to go from green to purple (in our style) he was still going to be responsible for all the previous material. his going to green just meant he had to learn two belt levels worth of material. never found out how well he wouldve done because his parents withdrew him due to school grades (which we get, but still disappointing)
I come from a tradition in which there is not a set time limit for earning colored belts. As a result, i don't have a set time for testing. When a student has learned the requirements for their next belt I test them. Now if there is another student of the same rank who is close, I may delay a few months so the other student can test with them, but I may have one student who is working much harder and or more naturally gifted, and they might progress more quickly. My instructor was very particular about who he tested for black. He had many brown belts who stayed at brown for years. In fact students who were brown belts when I started were still at brown when I reached black. We would skip a rank on very rare occasions. But it was because the student had learned the material expected for that rank. I only saw it a couple of times.
@@williambenson1477 I have friends who studied BJJ saying the same thing, rank can take some time. I went to a Kenpo school and was a white belt for 2.5 years. Other friends took different arts and in 2.5 years they were considered "upper belts".
imo it depends on the circumstance. I absolutely agree with you on your examples provided however If someone has previous experience and/or knows and can perfectly perform the curriculum for the belt being skipped to then it's okay. For example 6-7 years ago in my karate dojo we had a guy who previously did taekwondo for many years and seemed proficient enough that my instructor decided to start him off at blue belt (7th kyu/gup) and he has done amazing since then we recently promoted him to black belt. I've seen some instructors promote brown belts to black belts skipping 1-2 ranks because they were truly on that level knowing the full curriculum, assisting with class and teaching and putting in the time but for whatever reason hadn't promoted those in between ranks. In my personal experience when I was a 1st kyu/gup red belt in my karate school, I started to train judo in college. After a semester training I was eligible to promote and my instructor asked myself and the others testing if we wanted to go from white belt to orange belt (skipping yellow) because we had previous martial arts training and we truly met the requirements for that belt. So it should definitely be the exception and not the norm and imo should definitely NEVER happen with kids. Children need to earn and meet every milestone possible in marital arts as part of their development. All examples I have mentioned are of mature adults who have actually good body mechanics and full understanding of the curriculum. It also depends on the instructor, if they truly think the student is ready (and they're not just giving out rank like in your example) then most of the time they are ready. Even if the student doesn't think they're ready or have earned their rank yet if the instructor is truly worth their salt then they would know better than anyone if their student is eligible to promote/skip.
I went through a similar situation with my home dojo. I was promoted to 6th Dan from my home school I felt awkward but the certificate was given to me I asked my instructor was this honorary She said no but I didn't wear the belt for almost a year Thank you Kyoshi's Austin
I can relate greatly to this and I agree with you. However I like to use the term double testing. I double tested for 8th and 7th Kyu out of 10 Kyu ranks. This was only because I trained in Karate from age 12 to 15 and was 2 ranks away from Shodan but I moved away. I got back into a different style Karate dojo but with many similarities as a 28 year old. My Sensei saw fit for me to double test. I still trained hard and it took 2 years in my current dojo to reach Shodan my current rank. You are correct in that it’s all about the training and time you put into it.
When I was 28, the instructor at the school I grew up in moved away. He left what was left of his school to me. I had been taking Kung Fu from him since I was 14. Because I don't personally care about rank and because money was tight, I had never pursued any further degree advancement past my first degree black belt test when I was 18. Then when I was thirty, I ended up with a sizable monthly income to try turning the school into a full time income as a result of a settlement when my day job closed down. So I decided to spend the money to make the 1,000 mile trip to the Grand Master that supervised all testing that I had been sending tapes to and take my second degree test. It turned out that there were two forms I had never learned that were part of the second degree curriculum. But I was in my element sparring when I spared with the third degree black belts. It really put the Grand Master in a pickle. He was very traditional and very deeply against writing or videoing anything. But money was tight for me and I had made it clear that this trip was probably the only trip I would be able to make. He did ultimately come to a conclusion, but I've made it my personal policy not to say what the conclusion was because no matter what, there are some people who will disagree with it. I had picked up other things along the way, and I knew other forms from other teachers and there wasn't anything particularly special about the forms I didn't know and they obviously didn't include any skills that I needed to be a proficient fighter. Some people say I should have passed. On the other side, I very clearly, measurably, and absolutely did not meet the requirements of the rank. Some people say I should not have passed. I don't personally care about the rank, I know what the decision reflected, I recognize the difficulty in grading me, and I appreciate having that opportunity to see where my skills lay in the overall sequence.
There was this kid who started training a few months after my brother and I (after 30+ years ago). We were purple belts (fourth belt) and our instructor allowed him to skip twice. Which even as kids and beginners didn't quite sit well with us. Years later we're second gup (kyu) red belts and we tested for our first gup and passed. The time frame from 1st gup to 1st Dan was 9 months. For whatever reason he was allowed to test after only 6 months, while I (and everyone else afterwards) had to wait the full 9 months. No reason was ever given why. He was okay, average at best, definitely not some prodigy. I was 18 and about 5 years older than him and knew the material better. Technically, I was his sempai by at least 6 or 7 months, but if you look at our certificates, you'd think it was the other way around because his Dan number is above mine. One of the senior black belts joked that he was a "golden child". Basically, a student who was a favorite of our instructor. Even after all these years, that never really sat well with me. Why set minimum time requirements and yet not hold everyone to the same standards? Funny thing is, he quit after getting his black belt, while over three decades later I'm still at it. He also no longer has contact with our former instructor, but I still do. And no, I've never brought it up to my former instructor, it was decades ago. Plus, his school, his rules.
When I started Kobujutsu I practised for about 9 months and my teacher tought me and my fellow students a lot! So when I went for the first test under a higher ranked sensei, that sensei simply told us what he wanted to see. We all did the same. And after that, he said to me: 6th Kyu (the belt system starts with 9th Kyu). Some of my fellow students also got 6th Kyu, one other got 7th Kyu, 2 more got 8th Kyu. So I skipped the first 3 grades and received the 4th belt straight away. That bwas back in 2006. Now I hold Ni-Dan.
My school will skip or do a fast track for you, but it is all based off of merit. If you have no previous experience, then you must do a minimum time in each rank before promoting. You will only achieve the next rank once you have adequate skills and time in to go to the next rank. If you come to our school and say you are experienced and have Dan rank(s) in other systems, it is possible that you can skip several ranks, and/or fast track because it is warranted via merit. Basically we have the fast track program because we want rank based on merit and knowledge in our school. If you come to my school with several previous Dan ranks and are squared away, you are probably not going to be a white belt, or at least not for long. You would learn the material in the respective ranks that you are unfamiliar with and be pushed forward when possible. It is possible to come into our school and achieve a black belt within or around a year, but that is strictly dependent on how squared away the practitioner is. This is largely possible because of how our ranking system is structured. Kyu ranks are based on number training hours between each rank, not months. So if you theoretically push through and get all of your credit hours in a month (probably impossible) to test for the next rank, and you can demonstrate adequate proficiency for the next rank, a promotion will take place. Although it would be extremely rare and has never happened yet, we could in theory get someone that is so squared away because of their training in so many systems that they pretty much know all of the material accurately up to 1st Dan or above, and may be placed somewhere in the Dan ranks. That would probably take 1-2 months to go through the material to verify your abilities before you would get a fast track rank promotion like that. Our system does it this way because we don't want it to be about money. Money makes the world go around a lot of times, but we will never place money over quality. If the person is the quality of a white belt, they will stay at white belt until they earn yellow, whether that's 1 day or 1 year. We are a system first and a business second. Other than greed, there is no reason to suck money out of someone and to keep them at a current rank if their merit warrants a promotion.
When I began Karate over 10 years ago I had already been studying another art for over 4 years while called Aikido it was aikido, judo, kyusho, jijitsu, in short it did not teach strikes or kicks so my Karate teacher having had my Aikido teacher having learned his Karate by him, knew I already knew most of the techniques and only had to learn strikes and kicks, so my Karate teacher explained this to the class and asked them if they thought it was okay if I skipped white 1 and white 2 and was promoted to begin at yellow 1 which they agreed, so my case of skipping styles is not reflective of poor teaching just an understanding of not wasting time teaching me what I already learned from another school. In short I believe me skipping belt levels was an good exception to the rule.
Yeah, my teacher moved me past 4th Dan to 5th Dan with the title Renshi. Granted, I've had my own school, in his name, but had to leave for a few years for work purposes, as well as a broken leg. But he felt that I knew the material well enough after 18 years, so I took it. I'm now working real hard for myself to prove to me that I earned it.
Martial arts is a personal journey. If you have to sit out due to injury or otherwise miss time, you should not try to push to “catch up”. You should understand that you need to catch up at your own pace. Maybe you can learn faster or were already more advanced than the others and that’s fine. If not, that’s also fine. It’s not a race and nobody should feel that being behind the others they train with reflects bad on them in any way. When I studied, I took multiple classes a day for 5-6 days during the summer when I didn’t have school and during school months I took 2-3 classes a week. I was well ahead of the other kids in my class/rank because of this. I advanced more quickly then many of them as a result. Everyone dedicates a different amount of time to it and everyone learns at a different pace.
When I went back to practicing Karate after a break of several years, I started practicing in white belt because we wanted to see where I am at first. After some time, I was advised to go back to my further rank (4th kyu purple belt) because I was doing the advanced katas and participating in upper class kumite practices anyway. To some of other students who I hadn't talked to a lot, it looked like I skipped from white belt to 4th kyu purple belt (which would mean skipping yellow, orange, green and the first of the two purple belts). That would be quite a huge skip.
I believe that as a rule, students should not skip ranks. In fact, what I once thought of as an exception to that really isn't, and that's the situation where someone has previous rank in a very similar art/system. When I transitioned from Tracy's to Parker Kenpo, I was a Tracy's purple belt. When I showed up at my current school, I had no idea what to expect in terms of how the instructor wanted to handle ranking me. I happened to only physically have the purple belt that I had, so I apologized and my instructor had no problem. He watched me move in my first class, and he was comfortable that I was a legit purple belt and needed to focus on fixing some of my base along with transitioning to the new techniques, but for the most part, I had a reasonably functioning "purple belt engine" if that makes sense for you. Now, I would personally never want to skip a rank because I do believe there is "seasoning" that occurs at each belt level if one is training diligently. As a purple belt, I found that I could be asked by my instructor to do a technique, and I might actually do a pretty decent rep a time or two. At some point though, I probably get caught up in thinking about what I am doing and I'll perform a not so great rep. As my instructor points out , as a 5th degree black belt he can perform a technique 10 times, and each time he will actually do BETTER. I can't quite do that, so I'll keep going through the ranks normally. 🙂
I was a school as to where a student started six months after me and within nine months was a black belt teaching classes. Skipping over not only myself but other students of higher rank and two brown belts that I knew where brown belts for over a year.
The road from white belt to black belt is a journey of discovering knowledge and ones self, there should never be a short cut as it takes away from the spirit and form from the art. Back in the 80s I knew guys who attended McDojos and were getting black belts in 12 to 18 months and only learned/knew about a 4th of what a black belt should know.
I skipped from yellow to green in shorin ryu but I have a second degree in another system and have been training g for 20 years. Picked up this system material fairly fast but I felt a little embarrassed but I excepted it. It was only one belt skipped.
Actually the ref asked what rank he was and Mr. miyagi asked why matter and the ref said this whole division is for brown belt and above and Miyagi says ah boy black belt
@@LOVES-A1911 and then he distracts the ref about the spelling of his name, pulls a black belt out of the ref's blue bag, and hands it to Elizabeth Shue. Theft and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Miyagi said his teacher was his father, so we know where all this came from.
Well i believe as long as its the firts two belts its fine. For example I did Shotokan. I reached orange belt before stopping for two years. But I still remembered everything. Even the katas. So when I started Tang Soo Do. Because it was created from Shotokan up to orange belt the techniques and katas were the exact same. So the Sensei moved me up two belts straight away because I already new that stuff. But yellow and orange belt are the introduction to an art. The basics. Some schools don't even allow you to spar on these belts. So as far as the two arts are connected and its up to orange belt then I believe its okay. From green belt and up i don't think you should skip because that's when the differences come in
The best bit of getting a black belt is moving up the grades. Why would you want to skip all that. I would love to start from white belt again. If you have given up and gone back, it's not a problem to move back up to where you were abit quicker. Depending on how long you've been away.
I did because I missed a grading as i was on holiday and sensi wanted me to do both belt, I did in kyokushin BUT i was sparring all the time in the months after id missed the grading and kyokoshin randori there's no place to hide if you're behind, so ability to spar is what made them more accepting of me doing that.
So you still put in the work and you met both academic and physical qualities. If you could still stand toe to toe with the others, then you still worked hard for that rank.
This is a great video Dan!…and a great question! 😁👍🥋 CAN you skip ranks? Can High Schools allow one to skip grades? Only if they are tested and evaluated, and prove they possess the knowledge and skills of that level. SHOULD you skip ranks? Should you skip High School grades? No. The experience is essential. Should you be demoted in rank if you are not “current”? I don’t think they should be demoted…but a notation of non-currency should be added. Should a person be fully retested?…Evaluated?…Re-currency trained? …for competition? …for teaching? These questions would be a great follow up to this video. 👍🥋🙏
I began training in kobudo (generally Matayoshi-ryu) as of late, and I've felt prepared to shoot for the stars during each of the last tests, as I've been involved - primarily in karate - for the past 20+ years. However, my instructor informed me about kaizen - the Japanese idea of continual improvement. I imagine that he's making me go through each rank to keep me humble as well as to ensure that I know the material and continue to sharpen. At the same time, I also recently promoted one of my younger karate students - who I teach through my own program - via skip. This wasn't a light decision, as I wanted to feel right in doing so, knowing that their ability and knowledge was where I wanted it to be. This is something I'm going to do less and less as time progresses, but to students who prove themselves prodigies, everyone has their own processes.
There's too much emphasis on belt ranks in too many schools. I earned my chodan with the American Kyuki-do Federation in May 1997. I trained with the AKF until mid 2000 and then went back to school, followed by moving 700 miles to go to law school. For 19 years I trained by myself. In 2019 I returned to training with an excellent TSD school. I was double promoted at some lower ranks, but going on 5 years with this school I am at red belt, a step away from chodan. I have been eligible to test for a year but am in no hurry. I simply want to be better today than I was yesterday.
Skipping belt ranks results in funny sparrings between different dojos, where purple belts from one dojo knock down black belts from another in 1-2 hits.It's better not to make such a comedy.
I study more traditiional okinawan Uechi-ryu karate so there are usually only 3-4 belt ranks if the school uses them at all and the advancement is measured more by the progression of the student and the discression of the instructor (There isn't always a standard curriculum and it varies from one school to the other although the applications, fighting techniques, and training methods are taught consistantly). The belt ranking system only really started being common when shotokan was introduced to mainland japan, taken from judo. The idea of progressing a student without them being ready is like placing a 10yr old in a highschool math class. If the student can't understand the stuff in between, they won't be able to do any of the work and it serves no one, not the school, not the student, because it makes it so they are just there twiddling their thumbs while the people around them acctually can train with the other students with the skillset that prevents them from being seriously injured in the process. Because uechi-ryu involves a lot of heavy body conditioning over a long period of training, the white belts trying to train in the black belt classes would most likely get them injured. Although the advanced students also understand how to train safely with all ranking students (They wouldn't be able to teach the beginners if they couldn't) but that is unfair to the advanced students when they are training. I remember when I was first starting my training and I was sparing with one of the blackbelts (they were helping with the teaching) and even though they were showing the utmost control, just getting hit or kicked lightly was like getting hit with a brick or a baseball bat. There are levels of training for all students, you start at the bottom and you move your way to the top, if you try to go too quickly, you fall over and hurt yourself in the process.
I know it’s mentioned in other comments but I can see where prior training in other arts can lead to rank association. I mean being ranked at close to the in one style as the other. This would depend on the skill level. Our dojo lets you test when you are ready but the senior kyu ranks require tournament participation and assisting in class which plays a big role in the time in rank aspect.
First I want to make a point that at least in the kenpo system receiving your block belt only signifies that you have mastered the most basic core principles of the system and now as a black belt it is time to really get down to business and master the actual system itself Secondly I know some people who are in support of rank skipping site feelings of fairness I do not want to hear it as someone who grew up in a Kenpo dojo ran by family members I was often held to a much Higher standard than others I Don't Want To hear about fairness because I appreciated that level of excellence. The very few times I ever heard about skipping rank was usually due to a transplant between the Tracy and Parker systems of kenpo itself due to Expert proficiency and knowledge of core principles beyond the basic 10 techniques and 2 Kata's usually required for each belt rank- Each technique in each kata contains specific principles that builds upon each other symbolized by the multi dimensional patch seen in the early days of the Parker system. I can rarely see the wisdom and benefit of allowing people to skip ranks unless they are an advanced adult student showing mastery and proficiency beyond their peer group and even then often what I've seen is putting them in an advanced class or 1 on 1 instruction these kind of circumstances were always taken on a case-by-case basis not everyone moves at the same rate some people tested out of a rank in 6 months some people tested out of a rank in a few years
In 2017-2019 i used to practice in kyokushin when i was 8 and the sihan decided to skip the orange belt and we went from yellow to green belt and i didnt know how it was back then But now that i practice wado-ryu i see the difference in technique (currently an orange belt ironically enough)
Sensei Dan, I have met a disturbing number of people who have undeservedly skipped ranks. Many of these individuals were not even black belts in one system before they were given an honorary black belt in a different system. Sadly, I think this occurs because martial arts school operators are motivated by money, and promoting students rapidly and/or giving them belts they didn’t earn is profitable for them.
Where I live, there are Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do/Hapkido schools and Aikido/Judo/Shotokan schools that give students “3 separate black belts” within 5 years’ time, when these students have not earned a black belt in any one of these styles individually. Many traditional martial arts are no longer truly traditional. Where are the governing bodies within martial arts who can step in and “decertify” schools who engage in practices that adulterate and bastardize traditional martial arts?
@@Scorch1028 Because who has the right to tell other arts and school what they can and can't do? The martial arts are far too wide and diverse for any single governing body to determine their ranking. In the end it's still just a bookmark in that school's curriculum. The only time a governing body is needed is when the school is part of a larger organization and if there are rules and guidelines for it. But other than that, schools are free to do what they way. There is no way to "decertify" a school because who is that school even "certified" with? Each school runs as their own. The trick is to find the good schools, the ones who care more about the quality of training and not the color of the belts.
I took three years for me to get my green I had injuring hip flexor I took six months heal I didn't have my forum down once I understood the form I was ready for my taekwondo test I took six month round house kick down
Reminds me of when Khabib was invited to a Karate dojo and they tried to give him a black belt he said "nah give me the white belt." I can think of ONE of his opponents that would have taken the black belt no question.
Great topic. In my opinion lost time or accelerated time is irrelevant. Learning the choreography or forms or tans is one thing the concepts and application is another. So if a kid is missing certain forms shouldn't matter, but how can he apply the current forms or tans he knows
I’m currently training at red dragon karate. I skipped to yellow orange recently. Currently going to skip two belts at to go to blue belt my sensei is gonna let me skip me. I train at home a lot.
I should have viewed this sooner as we have new individuals join our club from elsewhere (we are in the Silicon Valley), several times a year. It is definitely a touchy subject.
What about switching styles? If a black belt in Shotokan decides to start Go Ju Ryu do you think certain skipping is ok or should just be quick advancing?
I think that depends on the instructor giving the rank and the student's abilities. As a black belt in karate, I trained Wado-ryu. The instructor was fine with me wearing my black belt while I trained. When we lined up, I lined up behind all the Wado BBs which was fine with me.
Having experience in another art definitely adds an exception, as long as the student can embrace the new material at the same rate they are progressing.
If the system you studied is fairly close and you can demonstrate proficiency then this isn’t a problem. You will have to learn all the material up to whatever ranking they allow you to move to. For example if you studied Taekwondo and then want to learn Hapkido or Tang Soo Do they are similar in many ways with many similar movements. They may ask you to learn the poomsae or form that is required for the rank. Example is if I went to learn Tang Soo Do, I’m a second degree black belt in Taekwondo. If I demonstrate proper skills and knowledge they may allow me to move directly to a black belt status and train with the black belt classes if I can prove that i can do it. I would be required to learn all the material relevant to Tang Soo Do specifically though. So is need to learn their forms and movements that differ from what I have studied before. So at first I probably will not be ranked black belt officially but I can move up quickly. They probably won’t have an issue if I trained and sparred with black belts because of my previous experience and ability, and I can wear my black belt but I may not be officially recognized yet.
Students who excel can be skipped. It is not something that I do often but on occasion. If a student does not meet the time, class attendance requirement and skill level they can not test. It doesn't matter how good they are. If the student has meet all requirements and on the day of the test show extra-ordinary skill, maturity and spirit they can possibly skip. But that is not a choice of the student. It is a decision on the examiner. Ranks can only be skipped at the kyu level. Now the student that skips is required to learn the material for both the rank that they skipped and the rank that they were skipped to. Skipping a rank is not a great thing because the student will be required to learn two katas and the material for both ranks. The student will not be tested for the rank that they skipped but they will have to know it.
I have a question for the community. I’m going for my black belt in Shuia Chiao and I started late in my martial art journey over 50 any tips to prepare myself? I just want to give my best
What if you get a new student who has been training for let's say 4 years in kyokushin, Shotokan or Taekwondo. Would you have that student start on white and go through all the belts like anyone else?
someone who goes to 2 classes a week, and someone who goes 5 or 6 days a week, but they can only grade at the same time, this i always thought was wrong, providing there is a clear quality gap between the students in technique
What happens sometimes is the student who is more dedicated and more advanced is allowed to test and the other must wait until he is ready. Some schools aware rank when the instructor feels you are ready regardless of time spent as every individual is different and learns at a different pace.
I am currently a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo. I have to be a 5th degree to become a master. If my instructor let me skip ranks, even if it was only by one, I would leave.
@ArtofOneDojo How do you feel about transfer students? I.e. what if someone earns a black belt or 2nd or 3rd of 4th dan in Wado Ryu and Wants to Learn Goju Ryu or Shito Ryu? Or someone more esoteric like moving from Tang Soo Do to shotokan?
@ArtofOneDojo well. Skipping in the sense of...do they start higher than white? Or keep an equivalent grade. Or are you saying start back and white and just move faster to first dan?
@@slindsey15 My personal belief...and this is just me...but I believe when regardless of what are you have experience in...if you go to a knew school in a different system...you should start at white. It's always worth starting at the beginning of a new style. And then go through each rank because that school is going to be organized differently and it's worth understanding each level. Now, if you have a lot of experience and can pick up the material faster, then that's awesome, acceleration is fine. But I think each rank needs to be experienced, even if it's for a very brief period. The more experienced the student, then the faster they can "catch up". That's just my 2 cents.
It doesn't matter if your skilled enogh to beat higher belts. The other part besides being combat ready is to be a STUDENT and learn the curriculum so that you can teach one day and CONTINUE your instructors lineage and the "art".
In my old school there was a 16 year old who was given a black belt after a year. He was so big (200+lbs) muscular and terrifyingly strong. He was also incredibly fast. In sparring he actually KO'd one of the instructors. Because of that they let so much go by the wayside as he was a literal gorilla. Their excuse was in Japan if a white belt defeated a black belt they would be given the black belt rank 🙄.
Oh man, that's actually unfortunate. Imagine how much better that guy would be after being given the proper structure and formal training. Taking his strength and then focusing it...he could elevate to a more proficient fighter.
@ArtofOneDojo honestly it put me off. He whooped me plenty and I was OK with that. It was the fact he just didn't get the love for it as me who wasn't very good but really loved the art.
Most American so called "schools or studio's" are just owner profit buildings, Much of the arts taught to children are ego / sports based. The ability to defend yourself under sudden attack takes years. Ranks / belts are games, a better measure is TODF (time on dojo floor). Children can learn kata , do established drills , break boards, at some point become good at padded up sports scoring points,,,,,,, what to do when confronted on the Walmart parking lot with 3 people swinging stick , pipe etc.... what leads up to this is TODF !
I just had my test i was a white belt and instead of going or yellow I skipped and got red (red is tge second colored belt after yellow in my country) because my teacher said I can go for red
What does it matter as long as the person has the ability/knowledge commensurate with that rank in that particular school? Insisting otherwise is just money grabbing and keeping people on as paying customers longer than necessary and seems more in the interest of the school/instructors than the students e.g. having a full school, apparent loyalty at least for a couple of years, money etc. At the end of the day, the rank is for the teacher to know what level the student is at and what can/cannot be taught to them. The mistake here is to conflate belt rank with some kind of personal achievement/status symbol that it has universal recognition. Taking 10 years to get a black belt instead of one does not mean it's worth more .....or less.
"person has the ability/knowledge commensurate with that rank" based on what I've seen, unless the student is exceptionally good or has prior experience...this is rarely the case. Some schools do drag students along for tuition, but those aren't good schools anyway. There are plenty of schools that students will train at regardless of the rank...there's still so much after black belt anyway. But you're right, it doesn't really matter, which is why a person shouldn't be focused on skipping and just focus on the material. In the end it's about the quality of training and too many people get hung up on the color around their waist. Like you said, just a curriculum marker.
Age + Time in grade + proficiency. Considering the martial art and whether or not it is a competition sport as well ex. Judo and taekwondo. Sports like wrestling where there is no rank system so to speak. It is organized around weight and age. How many yellow and orange belts still can’t tie their own belts? On top of getting a 8th Dan in something. Your best knowledge and even competition is around 2nd and 3rd Dan. Ranks after that are merely your contribution to the art not necessarily knowledge gained but shared.
Just a thought but I could see rank skipping in specific circumstances such as a WTF Taekwondoist want to transfer into the ITF, where it is similar, but there are differences. He knows the techniques, but needs to learn the new schools methods instead. But i jumped ranks myself, when I was training with Grandmaster in Arizona, and I wish I went back and did each step, it make you feel that the work you put in has less value, even though you busted your butt to get where you are, and deserve it, the rank skipping devalues it.
WTF and ITF are basically the same matrisl arts, TKD. Just because Gen Choi had issue with other masters then they splited. Indeed there are variations, but they are minimal. One can catch the gap fast without tge necessity to downgrade the previous rank. Karate is different story. One should really check whether the previous style comes from the same familly as the new one. Cause here we cañ expect huge fundsmental differences.
Boy do I disagree with you. I went from a green belt to a 4th gup blue belt ( skipped the 5gup) and I won a trophy at the same promotion exam for extra performance in that promotion exam. I actually had been training MORE as I progressed ( about every day). I was 16 and this was mostly a dojo of adults. During the exam, my sabonim had me do a multi phase breaking technique, that was way beyond the skills of a 5th gup. My forms were perfect. Sparred beautifully. This was in the mid 60s. My instructor was proud of me. 6 mos later I became a 3rd gup brown. Later, my instructor left that particular dojo. A new instructor promoted me 3 mos later to 2nd gup. When I re connected with my original sabonim , he made me go back to the last level HE had promoted me to which was 3rd gup. In essence the same instructor who skipped me a rank earlier, BASED ON MERIT, demoted me later, because he had not awarded the rank himself. This was not a kids class in a McDojo school in a suburban strip mall. What’s the problem with that? .
Because we want to systemize the training. Each ranks represents certain capability and time frame. Otherwise it is very easy to lose track. If you have very good trainer, perhaps it is ok for not having rank system, but what happends if the trainer is not exceptionally good?
@@ArtofOneDojo it is more complex than just a curriculum marker. I trained a traditional martrial arts in the past where the teacher would train whatever he had in his mind to different students. This MA is very cool but the issue of this approach the student will not automatically learn what they expect to learn when joining this MA. One should approach the teacher personally to be tought new techniques. There are also MA that teach nothing to the students for months expect stances or similar. Without a belt system as students we will never know when or whether we will learn how to fight. Jogoro Kano introduced belt system to give student short term targets to mantain the motivation of the students. Even military martrials have a type of belt system. If belt system is BS, military would not use it.
I'd be more concerned by the precedence you set regarding who is running the "school"/system... the instructor or the parents.? If you fold to the parents wishes, you just became a McDojo and have lost all integrity... or authority for "the system"... Let's not fool ourselves here... The kid students pay the bills... and without them, you lose your shop... so I've seen a lot of schools buckle under to this pressure (especially during covid)...
If you miss time, you lose time. Its not middle school. Skills learned, power and speed developed and time-in-grade are the prerequisites for promotion. The karate parents (TKD, whatever) need to GO. I wouldn't prematurely promote a kid or an adult for any reason, I don't give a f**k who you are, how much you whine or anything. You earn promotion, period. Don't like it, go find a McDojo to train at.
It DOES happen that people will be promoted from one advanced rank to another to placate or reward someone who should be capable otherwise. Or, as in your case, the sensei knows you know the material and that you're basically doing it every time you're at the dojo training. And, I have heard that you get promoted when you've filled and completed your existing rank, then begin to fill the next rank.
I understand being a black belt and being given a stripe is not proper in your case. But younger students that can out perform the brown belts in the school in Kata and Kumite and win tournaments. Why should the student be held back when they are clearly Superior physically and mentally over the more advanced students. It's somewhat embarrassing for the brown belts to be losing to a yellow belt. I've seen students win Grand champion in tournaments and be promoted on the spot. You need to think about other scenarios other than your own. Clearly this wouldn't be a negative subject for you if you did not believe you were ready for your promotion. Now the entire world knows you were not ready.
Well the performance of a student is another discussion really, but I agree with you there. As far as skipping...if that student really can pick up the material that fast...then perhaps an accelerated pace is warranted. I don't think they should skip, but at least go through the material even if it's abbreviated. As far as my own experience...what I hold negative was my Instructor's reason. I have no problem being open with the world, I have nothing to hide. But that's why I said I held MYSELF to the standard...I accepted it...but I didn't wear it until 6 months when I did earn it. I have been through the entire curriculum required for 5th degree, I earned it as much as anyone else...but I had to make that choice myself...I didn't just put it on when it was given to me. I made sure I completed it and actually earned it. I wasn't ready when it was given to me, but I was ready 6 months later. It's just remembering the conversation I had with him that brings up the negative feelings, and because of that I'm harder on myself. I have no shame in that.
Belt rankings are an artificial construct. No such thing as rankings in the old days. Can you really tell the difference between two adjacent rankings?
Belts are just curriculum markers...but people like to focus too much on them. Generally no, unless you know the academic material you wouldn't tell the differences between adjacent rankings, that's an excellent point.
Yeah, You seem to hit a nerve a lot. I remember leaving a comment on another channel, actually agreeing with you on something, and you basically blasted me saying I wasn't agreeing with you. In fact don't even answer this comment. Show me that you're a real martial artist and you can actually ignore something and move on. We dont need any more martial artist answering UA-cam videos anymore, we need more martial artist practicing martial arts.
Of course I'm going to reply, this is a discussion forum to discuss topics, whether we agree or not. Can you please remind me which interaction we had recently? Which video or what the discussion was? I don't "blast" people for simply disagreeing with me, I typically engage in a discussion to find middle ground, so I feel there is a lot of missing context here. What the martial arts actually needs is more people who will bring up topics, discuss them, hold themselves to standards, and be able to appreciate what others are doing. Not just people who drop a video and "move on". Please provide the context of our previous encounter because it bothered you enough to come and leave a comment and then challenge me not to reply on my own discussion board.
You, sir, have integrity, which is seldom seen anymore. Good on you and much respect and honor to you and your Sensei.
I think it really depends on the teacher. I've been in some more informal classes where the teacher cares less about rank than progression so he'll rank people where they're at. If someone is very gifted and athletic and has previous experience AND can explain the ideas and theories then they'll be ranked to a high level pretty quick. In the same vein if you get kind of stuck ideologically you can get stuck at a rank for quite a while. I've seen some people do well and then get stuck at orange belt for like 3 years and they really are just moving at that level and then something will click and they move on. Alternatively some people come in and they get it immediately and they get brown within like 5 months. It's about whatever the end goal is of the system you're in. If it's about tradition ending in total mastery of a strict curriculum then absolutely you wouldn't skip rank because that's important. If it's about showing basic competency in certain areas then that's a different story for a different system.
I’ve heard of a school skipping a black belt from another school from white to yellow but not beyond that
I actually skipped 4 belts and 1 belts later since I had trained for years in another system. But, my sensei also mentioned that he could not let me skip more belts since I need time before the black belt. My experience can be traced back to my high school time. Later, I stopped training for years after college. Years ago, I picked up martial art again. However, my school shutdown permanently. Then, I moved to the current system. It is probably because my background, my sensei let me skip belts twice.
Just like what the video said, martial art is not just memorizing material. It needs time to be mature. After years I feel that I can understand these material better than when I was in high school and college. Ages may also help my martial art.
I had a class in a private school. There were issues like this occasionally. The fact is never skip ranks. Only be fair when ranking.
It depends. I’m a 3rd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do and competed heavily. When I started Taekwondo the instructor gave me the opportunity to jump up to Brown Belt from White. The two styles are very similar and for me to be in an entry level classes didn’t make sense considering I was knocking around his Black Belts.
Having experience in another art is definitely a different story...at least in advancing quicker.
Hey another TSD guy hello! I'm moving from TSD to TKD as well just now lol.
@@dabossbabie3605 Nice! I studied under Pat Johnson, Bob Burbidge, Chuck and Rodger Lacombe back in the 80s - 00s out of Thousand Oaks CA.
@@ArtofOneDojo I was also a student of Bryan Hawkins and Albert Conejo when I studied Kenpo in West LA. Have you heard of them?
My karate journey started in the 80s. If a student or their parents requested to skip a grading they would have been laughed out of the dojo.
A traditional martial art that holds its roots deep in the philosophy of the development character, through discipline, hard work and patience, has no room for ego and entitlement. We were kids doing push ups on our knuckles on hard wooden floors, sweating for our next grades. These days it seems like people are given a belt just for showing up. It’s sad…
I remember doing knuckle pushups on the gravel outside as a black belt at around 12 years old. Now I’m 42 and out of shape because I work too much lol
What if he is better than most of the higher belts? When I did bjj i was around brown/purple belt level and I used to run circles around all the blue belts but they wouldn't promote me lol. I had done judo for around 5 years at that point so of course I was better.
Go back far enough and there was no such thing as talent rankings or "belts". About the only thing acknowledged was seniority of time with the teacher.
most modern martial arts are business ventures. BJJ and Krav Maga seem to get the most Publicity, but that doesn't necessarily make them the most Effective. I couldn't see myself teaching Secret Techniques to a morally un-sound person, just for money. However, I could teach them General Kickboxing techniques..
It’s pretty much up to the teacher. I say that because there is no law, meaning that the fuzz isn’t gonna come crashing through your front door.
This reminds me of my Choy Li Fut master. He told me that when he started training in the 50s, students started out with the black sash and got the white at instructor level as a sign of purity. But when he started his own school in the 60s he switched it to starting at white and ending at black to avoid confusion with the Japanese and Korean arts.
Oh...no one told you about the belt police???? :P
@@ArtofOneDojo Oh no. 😟 I better turn myself in! 🤣🤣💪
@@blockmasterscott We have a belt fugitive here!! 🚨🚓🚨🚓🚨🚔🚔👮👮👮
One thing that may be an issue is the perception that rank is something earned like money - that you can keep it as long as want it.
The rank is earned, but it's a snapshot into the skills represented at that time.
A black belt who hasn't been practicing for 20 years isn't representative of those who practice currently.
I can relate as I was a tkd practitioner for years... in the 80's! Did a couple years in early 2000's (tkd and judo).
This week I started at a shotokan school and though I knew, in my memory, a lot of what was being taught in class... my old body wasn't there. I have no issue starting as a white belt again. My body has to be trained again. It'll be a fun journey.
I don't train to impress- I train for me. For health and for fun. I don't represent black belt skill today... but I'll get there.
The value is in what you learned, and what you can apply,not the belt!
They look pissed off. Like, " how's he gonna come in a white two weeks ago, and skip over me".
The Journey
Don't short change yourself (or others) of the full experience.
Do things properly (Experimenting and being too creative can be a big time waster) gain experience first.
Your seniors should have done these things already and can warn you.
The Path Ahead (The Good Instructor)
Someone who is experienced and you trust.
Knows your level and teaches what you need but also gives you a clear path to the future. (Sets an example and shows what's possible)
You can then work towards your goal with confidence.
The Research Stage (University Thesis and PhD)
As a senior this will happen and takes up a lot of (a life) time, effort and money.
Star Trek Future (...now to the short cut in life)
Gain what you can from seniors.
It's decades of work.
People will be far more capable thanks to those ahead of us.
(Newton Quote “If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.”)
Totally agree with you. You have to put in the time and training. There is no substitute
Great video! Thank you
I have seen students been skipped a rank and I myself was skipped ranks because we were either previously trained in other styles for a long period which made it easier to pick up the Goju material or have done Goju for a number of years (my case), and we accepted it because our teachers realized that we have a deeper understanding of the material.
Thanks for your input on this. And what can be an acceptable reason to skip over ranks and what are not
Having prior experience definitely can open a path for faster advancement. A lot of people think it's just a matter of reading ahead or memorizing material, and it's definitely not, nor should it be.
@artofonedojo
I had the same thing with promotion. I had fought like a dog and went above and beyond to earn a legit and fairly ridiculous 3rd Dan in Judo. Last year, one of my old sensei developed cancer, he was 98 and promoted me to 4th Dan. He said it was for dedication, teaching etc. I believe it was due to his health and years and not knowing what the future might hold.
I accepted it knowing the above, with the hope that I would eventually grow into it. Similarly to yourself, I told myself that it's one man's subjective opinion. I can't out right say he's wrong. Its an opinion, nothing more or less.
At some point though I will feel the need to do a few trials and tribulations to ratify the rank to myself though.
In short. I can relate.
I trained in Tang Soo Do / SBD for about 6 years (2nd Gup) [I still practice though!], so now going into Taekwondo, the master just put me at same belt rank and told me to catch up since the skills are already there.
I'm the only case where I've heard such a thing, but granted the styles are similar and the forms are pretty much the same so makes sense.
That's actually a common thing, instructors letting you keep your belt but then you have to go back and catch up. I've seen that a lot and that's fine, as long as that's the instructors idea. Generally respect would be to wear a white belt, but if the instructor is good with it, than that's totally fine and makes sense.
@@ArtofOneDojo Definitely. I specifically even told him that I would be down to start at white belt, but the arts are so similar there wasn’t much of a point, it’s just a matter of a couple of movement differences and one steps lol
Such good points, Dan! I try to instill in my students the goal should be to become better, not collecting rank belts. A lot of parents don't get it, unless they are martial artists too.
For myself, I actually technically skipped brown belt 2 and 1 after making brown belt and tested for my Shodan. But that wasn't really skipping as I learned the material for Brown 2 and 1 and held my brown belt the same amount of time as I would have if I had done those extra tests. Our dojo didn't do anything like stripes to indicate rank, so it really didn't matter. I saved money which helped go to the more expensive Shodan test which included the traditional kanji/katakana embroidered Shureido obi.
To me, the belt system has always been a symbol of "status and rank in a particular school" but not necessarily a practitioner's skill level in their particular field.
In the FMA (Filipino martial arts), which is my preferred fighting system, Instead of belts, titles such as "Guro" (teacher), "Punong Guro" (head teacher), "Lakan" (a title for advanced practitioners, often translated as "knight" or "warrior"), and "Datu" (chief) were used to signify rank and status within the system. These titles indicated a practitioner's level of expertise and their role within the FMA community.
From what I understand of karate, judo, taekwondo and other "traditional" martial arts.
The color belt system, as commonly known in modern martial arts was introduced by Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, in the late 19th century. Kano's system used colored belts to signify different ranks and levels of proficiency.
In Okinawan martial arts, particularly Karate, the color belt system was adopted later, largely due to the influence of Judo and its ranking system. Gichin Funakoshi, who is credited with popularizing Karate in Japan, adopted the colored belt system in the 1920s to help standardize the ranking process. Before this, Okinawan martial arts typically used a more informal ranking system based on the instructor's judgment and the student's skill level.
O' Sensei Dan, you made some good points in your video. You know my karate journey and all my struggles. And I recently was honored as a Grandmaster. However, during my karate journey in 1985 while in the Navy (before getting into American Kenpo in 1987), I did skip a rank in Shuri Ryu Karate instead of going for my Purple belt I went straight for my 1st Brown. I did not make it home after my Lebanon tour return in 1984 and when I finally came home on leave for Christmas1985, I skipped a rank. It was the only rank I ever skipped though. And after that I had gaps in my promotions due to my Naval Career and many ailments and injuries I overcame. But I never quit and now made it to Grandmaster. Hai. Grandmaster K, MA
I was fortunate to train under John Graden, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, & Michael Anderson of WAKO. Earning my 1st Dan from Anderson in 2004 in American TKD. Then 2nd, 3rd, & 5th throughout the years following. My under-belts were white, yellow, orange, green, blue, red, & brown belt every 3 - 4 months. I not only attended my regular classes but the underbelt classes as well to keep sharp with all the materials. Keep in mind that I was 41 when I started. All the while competing in both the NASKA but ISKA as well to hone my skills. I adamantly oppose skipping belts. You know just as well that the McDojo’s give rank as if they were candy. And then there are the websites you buy a black belt for 150.00. I call them “paper black belts”. Thanks Mr. Dan, spot on.
Very impressive lineage! I was an instructor with Tracy's back in the day when Lewis was working for them. He gave seminars for the instructors, and I was lucky enough to learn material from him that he had learned from Bruce Lee. Works well to this day. Best!
Wait a minute...u was 41 when u had picked up martial arts 😱
I agree with you with one exception. At the lower ranks (and all ranks to a degree) it is about the amount of time you spend learning and practicing. So, if you're only coming to class, not really practicing outside of class, etc., then absolutely no skipping. However, if you're putting in extra time, adding in private lessons, being taught/shown things to advance, then I think you can earn two belts in one test.
Example, when I first started, I had spent two years watching my kids. Intellectually I knew the material. I started maybe a month before belt testing. 4 months later at the second opportunity to test, interested for two belts because I had been taught the material and my body had caught up with my mind/knowledge. I also was in an adult class that had white to Green/black (the lower 9 ranks+white belts in our 12 rank system). So I was able to learn and do things that were beyond my rank because others in the small adult class were already doing them. As a result I learned and advanced much quicker than the other adults, but outside of that first "skip" I never tested for more than one belt until the Pandemic. But again, that was more because no one was allowed to test when they should have and so some students tested for two belts.
You bring up great points, and I'm a little more in favor of speeding up the material if the student can grasp it instead of skipping. I personally don't like skipping because even if you know the material intellectually, there should still be some dedicated focused hands on time with it, even if it's abbreviated.
@@ArtofOneDojo completely agree. The one other exception I knew that make would be coming from a different school or style that has similarities. You would still test through the ranks in some fashion, but wouldn't have to spend the same amount of time in each rank. For my example, my style is blended and has a lot of similarities to Shotokan. I could probably go to a Shotokan dojo and test through several ranks after only a few months because if the similarities.
Also, an advantage our system has, is each belt test you are re-tested on all previous material as well as your new material. So, when I say I literally tested foe two belts at once, I just tested foe the higher belt, this earning both because I was required to show the same skills as the lower rank to get the higher rank.
@@TimWillie I agree with that as well, coming from another system definitely gives an advantage.
Our dojo didn't give away free belts and sometimes I wondered if my instructors awarded ranks only if students were better than the majority of other dojos' students. It wasn't uncommon for our instructors to sit students down after training and tell them they weren't ready yet.
One day after a training I asked our sensei why he kept nagging about minuscule stuff and he said "you 3 are among the students I'd like to bring to tournaments one day". That happened almost 20 years ago but it still remember it clearly and I've tried to live by the wisdom behind it ever since.
I trained in Kenpo on and off for many years. Generally, at the school I started with, a "normal person" who was committed made rank about once a year give or take. So generally about a ten year journey to black.
After my instructor moved away I went to a completely different Kenpo school. I met with the head instructor I mentioned where I had previously studied. He asked how I felt about being a white belt again, I was fine with it. The art was different however much of the basics were the same and within a month I was moved up to yellow. Then I decided to move on.
I don't think "skipping rank" is appropriate. If your a black belt in a similar style (striking art or a grappling art) chances are you will pick up the similar art very fast, so just move up fast. But there will be differences and you owe it to yourself to learn those differences.
One time in my school there was this mom who straight up bought her kid an orange belt without our instructors' approval, and she wanted them to let him wear it. One of my instructors then said "Well, if he can't do the material the other orange belts do, then he can wear the belt, but he's staying in the group he was in before."
Some parents are the absolute worst to deal with.
our school skipped one student ever from yellow to green, over orange belt, but we figured we'd just get him on the back end because to go from green to purple (in our style) he was still going to be responsible for all the previous material. his going to green just meant he had to learn two belt levels worth of material. never found out how well he wouldve done because his parents withdrew him due to school grades (which we get, but still disappointing)
I come from a tradition in which there is not a set time limit for earning colored belts. As a result, i don't have a set time for testing. When a student has learned the requirements for their next belt I test them. Now if there is another student of the same rank who is close, I may delay a few months so the other student can test with them, but I may have one student who is working much harder and or more naturally gifted, and they might progress more quickly. My instructor was very particular about who he tested for black. He had many brown belts who stayed at brown for years. In fact students who were brown belts when I started were still at brown when I reached black. We would skip a rank on very rare occasions. But it was because the student had learned the material expected for that rank. I only saw it a couple of times.
It took me 5 yrs to get my black belt. 2 more years to get my 1st degree. A belt just holds your gi shut knowledge is in the mind.
...i wore my white belt for 4 years...old school bjj...
@@williambenson1477 I have friends who studied BJJ saying the same thing, rank can take some time. I went to a Kenpo school and was a white belt for 2.5 years. Other friends took different arts and in 2.5 years they were considered "upper belts".
5 years to get your black and another 2 for first? What style? Cause I only know of two arts (san soo kung fu and jiu-jitsu) that does that.
Theses were one on one classes just me and the sensi.
imo it depends on the circumstance. I absolutely agree with you on your examples provided however If someone has previous experience and/or knows and can perfectly perform the curriculum for the belt being skipped to then it's okay. For example 6-7 years ago in my karate dojo we had a guy who previously did taekwondo for many years and seemed proficient enough that my instructor decided to start him off at blue belt (7th kyu/gup) and he has done amazing since then we recently promoted him to black belt. I've seen some instructors promote brown belts to black belts skipping 1-2 ranks because they were truly on that level knowing the full curriculum, assisting with class and teaching and putting in the time but for whatever reason hadn't promoted those in between ranks. In my personal experience when I was a 1st kyu/gup red belt in my karate school, I started to train judo in college. After a semester training I was eligible to promote and my instructor asked myself and the others testing if we wanted to go from white belt to orange belt (skipping yellow) because we had previous martial arts training and we truly met the requirements for that belt. So it should definitely be the exception and not the norm and imo should definitely NEVER happen with kids. Children need to earn and meet every milestone possible in marital arts as part of their development. All examples I have mentioned are of mature adults who have actually good body mechanics and full understanding of the curriculum. It also depends on the instructor, if they truly think the student is ready (and they're not just giving out rank like in your example) then most of the time they are ready. Even if the student doesn't think they're ready or have earned their rank yet if the instructor is truly worth their salt then they would know better than anyone if their student is eligible to promote/skip.
I went through a similar situation with my home dojo. I was promoted to 6th Dan from my home school
I felt awkward but the certificate was given to me
I asked my instructor was this honorary
She said no but I didn't wear the belt for almost a year
Thank you Kyoshi's Austin
I can relate greatly to this and I agree with you. However I like to use the term double testing. I double tested for 8th and 7th Kyu out of 10 Kyu ranks. This was only because I trained in Karate from age 12 to 15 and was 2 ranks away from Shodan but I moved away. I got back into a different style Karate dojo but with many similarities as a 28 year old. My Sensei saw fit for me to double test. I still trained hard and it took 2 years in my current dojo to reach Shodan my current rank. You are correct in that it’s all about the training and time you put into it.
When I was 28, the instructor at the school I grew up in moved away. He left what was left of his school to me. I had been taking Kung Fu from him since I was 14. Because I don't personally care about rank and because money was tight, I had never pursued any further degree advancement past my first degree black belt test when I was 18. Then when I was thirty, I ended up with a sizable monthly income to try turning the school into a full time income as a result of a settlement when my day job closed down. So I decided to spend the money to make the 1,000 mile trip to the Grand Master that supervised all testing that I had been sending tapes to and take my second degree test.
It turned out that there were two forms I had never learned that were part of the second degree curriculum. But I was in my element sparring when I spared with the third degree black belts. It really put the Grand Master in a pickle. He was very traditional and very deeply against writing or videoing anything. But money was tight for me and I had made it clear that this trip was probably the only trip I would be able to make.
He did ultimately come to a conclusion, but I've made it my personal policy not to say what the conclusion was because no matter what, there are some people who will disagree with it. I had picked up other things along the way, and I knew other forms from other teachers and there wasn't anything particularly special about the forms I didn't know and they obviously didn't include any skills that I needed to be a proficient fighter. Some people say I should have passed. On the other side, I very clearly, measurably, and absolutely did not meet the requirements of the rank. Some people say I should not have passed. I don't personally care about the rank, I know what the decision reflected, I recognize the difficulty in grading me, and I appreciate having that opportunity to see where my skills lay in the overall sequence.
In Okinawa, belt mean no need rope hold up pants!
My belt is canvas, JC Penny $3.98.
There was this kid who started training a few months after my brother and I (after 30+ years ago). We were purple belts (fourth belt) and our instructor allowed him to skip twice. Which even as kids and beginners didn't quite sit well with us. Years later we're second gup (kyu) red belts and we tested for our first gup and passed. The time frame from 1st gup to 1st Dan was 9 months. For whatever reason he was allowed to test after only 6 months, while I (and everyone else afterwards) had to wait the full 9 months. No reason was ever given why. He was okay, average at best, definitely not some prodigy. I was 18 and about 5 years older than him and knew the material better. Technically, I was his sempai by at least 6 or 7 months, but if you look at our certificates, you'd think it was the other way around because his Dan number is above mine.
One of the senior black belts joked that he was a "golden child". Basically, a student who was a favorite of our instructor. Even after all these years, that never really sat well with me. Why set minimum time requirements and yet not hold everyone to the same standards? Funny thing is, he quit after getting his black belt, while over three decades later I'm still at it. He also no longer has contact with our former instructor, but I still do. And no, I've never brought it up to my former instructor, it was decades ago. Plus, his school, his rules.
When I started Kobujutsu I practised for about 9 months and my teacher tought me and my fellow students a lot! So when I went for the first test under a higher ranked sensei, that sensei simply told us what he wanted to see. We all did the same. And after that, he said to me: 6th Kyu (the belt system starts with 9th Kyu). Some of my fellow students also got 6th Kyu, one other got 7th Kyu, 2 more got 8th Kyu. So I skipped the first 3 grades and received the 4th belt straight away. That bwas back in 2006. Now I hold Ni-Dan.
My school will skip or do a fast track for you, but it is all based off of merit. If you have no previous experience, then you must do a minimum time in each rank before promoting. You will only achieve the next rank once you have adequate skills and time in to go to the next rank. If you come to our school and say you are experienced and have Dan rank(s) in other systems, it is possible that you can skip several ranks, and/or fast track because it is warranted via merit.
Basically we have the fast track program because we want rank based on merit and knowledge in our school. If you come to my school with several previous Dan ranks and are squared away, you are probably not going to be a white belt, or at least not for long. You would learn the material in the respective ranks that you are unfamiliar with and be pushed forward when possible. It is possible to come into our school and achieve a black belt within or around a year, but that is strictly dependent on how squared away the practitioner is. This is largely possible because of how our ranking system is structured. Kyu ranks are based on number training hours between each rank, not months. So if you theoretically push through and get all of your credit hours in a month (probably impossible) to test for the next rank, and you can demonstrate adequate proficiency for the next rank, a promotion will take place.
Although it would be extremely rare and has never happened yet, we could in theory get someone that is so squared away because of their training in so many systems that they pretty much know all of the material accurately up to 1st Dan or above, and may be placed somewhere in the Dan ranks. That would probably take 1-2 months to go through the material to verify your abilities before you would get a fast track rank promotion like that.
Our system does it this way because we don't want it to be about money. Money makes the world go around a lot of times, but we will never place money over quality. If the person is the quality of a white belt, they will stay at white belt until they earn yellow, whether that's 1 day or 1 year. We are a system first and a business second. Other than greed, there is no reason to suck money out of someone and to keep them at a current rank if their merit warrants a promotion.
If a person already has a lot of experience in another art, then that could definitely lead to faster advancement.
When I began Karate over 10 years ago I had already been studying another art for over 4 years while called Aikido it was aikido, judo, kyusho, jijitsu, in short it did not teach strikes or kicks so my Karate teacher having had my Aikido teacher having learned his Karate by him, knew I already knew most of the techniques and only had to learn strikes and kicks, so my Karate teacher explained this to the class and asked them if they thought it was okay if I skipped white 1 and white 2 and was promoted to begin at yellow 1 which they agreed, so my case of skipping styles is not reflective of poor teaching just an understanding of not wasting time teaching me what I already learned from another school. In short I believe me skipping belt levels was an good exception to the rule.
Yeah, my teacher moved me past 4th Dan to 5th Dan with the title Renshi. Granted, I've had my own school, in his name, but had to leave for a few years for work purposes, as well as a broken leg. But he felt that I knew the material well enough after 18 years, so I took it. I'm now working real hard for myself to prove to me that I earned it.
Martial arts is a personal journey. If you have to sit out due to injury or otherwise miss time, you should not try to push to “catch up”. You should understand that you need to catch up at your own pace. Maybe you can learn faster or were already more advanced than the others and that’s fine. If not, that’s also fine. It’s not a race and nobody should feel that being behind the others they train with reflects bad on them in any way.
When I studied, I took multiple classes a day for 5-6 days during the summer when I didn’t have school and during school months I took 2-3 classes a week. I was well ahead of the other kids in my class/rank because of this. I advanced more quickly then many of them as a result. Everyone dedicates a different amount of time to it and everyone learns at a different pace.
When I went back to practicing Karate after a break of several years, I started practicing in white belt because we wanted to see where I am at first. After some time, I was advised to go back to my further rank (4th kyu purple belt) because I was doing the advanced katas and participating in upper class kumite practices anyway. To some of other students who I hadn't talked to a lot, it looked like I skipped from white belt to 4th kyu purple belt (which would mean skipping yellow, orange, green and the first of the two purple belts). That would be quite a huge skip.
I believe that as a rule, students should not skip ranks. In fact, what I once thought of as an exception to that really isn't, and that's the situation where someone has previous rank in a very similar art/system. When I transitioned from Tracy's to Parker Kenpo, I was a Tracy's purple belt. When I showed up at my current school, I had no idea what to expect in terms of how the instructor wanted to handle ranking me. I happened to only physically have the purple belt that I had, so I apologized and my instructor had no problem. He watched me move in my first class, and he was comfortable that I was a legit purple belt and needed to focus on fixing some of my base along with transitioning to the new techniques, but for the most part, I had a reasonably functioning "purple belt engine" if that makes sense for you. Now, I would personally never want to skip a rank because I do believe there is "seasoning" that occurs at each belt level if one is training diligently. As a purple belt, I found that I could be asked by my instructor to do a technique, and I might actually do a pretty decent rep a time or two. At some point though, I probably get caught up in thinking about what I am doing and I'll perform a not so great rep. As my instructor points out , as a 5th degree black belt he can perform a technique 10 times, and each time he will actually do BETTER. I can't quite do that, so I'll keep going through the ranks normally. 🙂
I was a school as to where a student started six months after me and within nine months was a black belt teaching classes. Skipping over not only myself but other students of higher rank and two brown belts that I knew where brown belts for over a year.
Yeah...there are a lot of red flags there. I hope you left that school.
The road from white belt to black belt is a journey of discovering knowledge and ones self, there should never be a short cut as it takes away from the spirit and form from the art.
Back in the 80s I knew guys who attended McDojos and were getting black belts in 12 to 18 months and only learned/knew about a 4th of what a black belt should know.
Blah blah blah.. it's not a journey or discovering knowledge.
It should be.
@@ironandzinc unless you were born all knowing it is.
I skipped from yellow to green in shorin ryu but I have a second degree in another system and have been training g for 20 years. Picked up this system material fairly fast but I felt a little embarrassed but I excepted it. It was only one belt skipped.
Was a purple belt once back in highschool never got pass it without having to spar with someone it just didn't feel ok at that time.
Mr Miyagi stole a black belt from someone else so that Daniel-San could compete in a tournament for black belts only. Let that sink in.
Actually the ref asked what rank he was and Mr. miyagi asked why matter and the ref said this whole division is for brown belt and above and Miyagi says ah boy black belt
@@LOVES-A1911 and then he distracts the ref about the spelling of his name, pulls a black belt out of the ref's blue bag, and hands it to Elizabeth Shue. Theft and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Miyagi said his teacher was his father, so we know where all this came from.
I thought Miyagi got his belt from JC Penny's.
@@pawlee77 he did for $3.98, in Okinawa belt mean no need rope to hold up pants.
It's a show, and fake. Let that sink in.
Well i believe as long as its the firts two belts its fine. For example I did Shotokan. I reached orange belt before stopping for two years. But I still remembered everything. Even the katas. So when I started Tang Soo Do. Because it was created from Shotokan up to orange belt the techniques and katas were the exact same. So the Sensei moved me up two belts straight away because I already new that stuff. But yellow and orange belt are the introduction to an art. The basics. Some schools don't even allow you to spar on these belts. So as far as the two arts are connected and its up to orange belt then I believe its okay. From green belt and up i don't think you should skip because that's when the differences come in
I subscribed to your website, to avoid intentionally shady practices found in Fairbanks, Alaska.
The best bit of getting a black belt is moving up the grades. Why would you want to skip all that. I would love to start from white belt again.
If you have given up and gone back, it's not a problem to move back up to where you were abit quicker. Depending on how long you've been away.
I did because I missed a grading as i was on holiday and sensi wanted me to do both belt, I did in kyokushin BUT i was sparring all the time in the months after id missed the grading and kyokoshin randori there's no place to hide if you're behind, so ability to spar is what made them more accepting of me doing that.
So you still put in the work and you met both academic and physical qualities. If you could still stand toe to toe with the others, then you still worked hard for that rank.
They dont do it a lot but when your real talented you can and when you are a great combat fighter you can. Greetings from the Netherlands 🥋 OSU 🥋
This is a great video Dan!…and a great question! 😁👍🥋
CAN you skip ranks? Can High Schools allow one to skip grades? Only if they are tested and evaluated, and prove they possess the knowledge and skills of that level.
SHOULD you skip ranks? Should you skip High School grades?
No. The experience is essential.
Should you be demoted in rank if you are not “current”?
I don’t think they should be demoted…but a notation of non-currency should be added.
Should a person be fully retested?…Evaluated?…Re-currency trained?
…for competition?
…for teaching?
These questions would be a great follow up to this video. 👍🥋🙏
I began training in kobudo (generally Matayoshi-ryu) as of late, and I've felt prepared to shoot for the stars during each of the last tests, as I've been involved - primarily in karate - for the past 20+ years. However, my instructor informed me about kaizen - the Japanese idea of continual improvement. I imagine that he's making me go through each rank to keep me humble as well as to ensure that I know the material and continue to sharpen.
At the same time, I also recently promoted one of my younger karate students - who I teach through my own program - via skip. This wasn't a light decision, as I wanted to feel right in doing so, knowing that their ability and knowledge was where I wanted it to be. This is something I'm going to do less and less as time progresses, but to students who prove themselves prodigies, everyone has their own processes.
There's too much emphasis on belt ranks in too many schools. I earned my chodan with the American Kyuki-do Federation in May 1997. I trained with the AKF until mid 2000 and then went back to school, followed by moving 700 miles to go to law school. For 19 years I trained by myself. In 2019 I returned to training with an excellent TSD school. I was double promoted at some lower ranks, but going on 5 years with this school I am at red belt, a step away from chodan. I have been eligible to test for a year but am in no hurry. I simply want to be better today than I was yesterday.
Your mind is in the right place :)
Skipping belt ranks results in funny sparrings between different dojos, where purple belts from one dojo knock down black belts from another in 1-2 hits.It's better not to make such a comedy.
I skipped yellow because I had previously had years of experience.
Having experience in another art does add a different spin on things as it a bit more understandable.
I study more traditiional okinawan Uechi-ryu karate so there are usually only 3-4 belt ranks if the school uses them at all and the advancement is measured more by the progression of the student and the discression of the instructor (There isn't always a standard curriculum and it varies from one school to the other although the applications, fighting techniques, and training methods are taught consistantly). The belt ranking system only really started being common when shotokan was introduced to mainland japan, taken from judo. The idea of progressing a student without them being ready is like placing a 10yr old in a highschool math class. If the student can't understand the stuff in between, they won't be able to do any of the work and it serves no one, not the school, not the student, because it makes it so they are just there twiddling their thumbs while the people around them acctually can train with the other students with the skillset that prevents them from being seriously injured in the process. Because uechi-ryu involves a lot of heavy body conditioning over a long period of training, the white belts trying to train in the black belt classes would most likely get them injured. Although the advanced students also understand how to train safely with all ranking students (They wouldn't be able to teach the beginners if they couldn't) but that is unfair to the advanced students when they are training. I remember when I was first starting my training and I was sparing with one of the blackbelts (they were helping with the teaching) and even though they were showing the utmost control, just getting hit or kicked lightly was like getting hit with a brick or a baseball bat. There are levels of training for all students, you start at the bottom and you move your way to the top, if you try to go too quickly, you fall over and hurt yourself in the process.
I know it’s mentioned in other comments but I can see where prior training in other arts can lead to rank association. I mean being ranked at close to the in one style as the other. This would depend on the skill level. Our dojo lets you test when you are ready but the senior kyu ranks require tournament participation and assisting in class which plays a big role in the time in rank aspect.
First I want to make a point that at least in the kenpo system receiving your block belt only signifies that you have mastered the most basic core principles of the system and now as a black belt it is time to really get down to business and master the actual system itself
Secondly I know some people who are in support of rank skipping site feelings of fairness I do not want to hear it as someone who grew up in a Kenpo dojo ran by family members I was often held to a much Higher standard than others I Don't Want To hear about fairness because I appreciated that level of excellence.
The very few times I ever heard about skipping rank was usually due to a transplant between the Tracy and Parker systems of kenpo itself due to Expert proficiency and knowledge of core principles beyond the basic 10 techniques and 2 Kata's usually required for each belt rank- Each technique in each kata contains specific principles that builds upon each other symbolized by the multi dimensional patch seen in the early days of the Parker system.
I can rarely see the wisdom and benefit of allowing people to skip ranks unless they are an advanced adult student showing mastery and proficiency beyond their peer group and even then often what I've seen is putting them in an advanced class or 1 on 1 instruction
these kind of circumstances were always taken on a case-by-case basis
not everyone moves at the same rate some people tested out of a rank in 6 months some people tested out of a rank in a few years
In 2017-2019 i used to practice in kyokushin when i was 8 and the sihan decided to skip the orange belt and we went from yellow to green belt and i didnt know how it was back then
But now that i practice wado-ryu i see the difference in technique (currently an orange belt ironically enough)
Sensei Dan, I have met a disturbing number of people who have undeservedly skipped ranks. Many of these individuals were not even black belts in one system before they were given an honorary black belt in a different system. Sadly, I think this occurs because martial arts school operators are motivated by money, and promoting students rapidly and/or giving them belts they didn’t earn is profitable for them.
I have to agree, and quite often you can pick those students out. There's often a clear difference in quality.
Where I live, there are Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do/Hapkido schools and Aikido/Judo/Shotokan schools that give students “3 separate black belts” within 5 years’ time, when these students have not earned a black belt in any one of these styles individually. Many traditional martial arts are no longer truly traditional. Where are the governing bodies within martial arts who can step in and “decertify” schools who engage in practices that adulterate and bastardize traditional martial arts?
@@Scorch1028 Because who has the right to tell other arts and school what they can and can't do? The martial arts are far too wide and diverse for any single governing body to determine their ranking. In the end it's still just a bookmark in that school's curriculum.
The only time a governing body is needed is when the school is part of a larger organization and if there are rules and guidelines for it.
But other than that, schools are free to do what they way. There is no way to "decertify" a school because who is that school even "certified" with? Each school runs as their own.
The trick is to find the good schools, the ones who care more about the quality of training and not the color of the belts.
I took three years for me to get my green I had injuring hip flexor I took six months heal I didn't have my forum down once I understood the form I was ready for my taekwondo test I took six month round house kick down
Reminds me of when Khabib was invited to a Karate dojo and they tried to give him a black belt he said "nah give me the white belt."
I can think of ONE of his opponents that would have taken the black belt no question.
Great topic. In my opinion lost time or accelerated time is irrelevant. Learning the choreography or forms or tans is one thing the concepts and application is another. So if a kid is missing certain forms shouldn't matter, but how can he apply the current forms or tans he knows
I’m currently training at red dragon karate. I skipped to yellow orange recently. Currently going to skip two belts at to go to blue belt my sensei is gonna let me skip me. I train at home a lot.
I've only seen it happen once. The student was the instructor's son....Hmmm.
I should have viewed this sooner as we have new individuals join our club from elsewhere (we are in the Silicon Valley), several times a year. It is definitely a touchy subject.
My teacher was very old school he learned in Okinawa when he was in the military.
What about switching styles? If a black belt in Shotokan decides to start Go Ju Ryu do you think certain skipping is ok or should just be quick advancing?
I think that depends on the instructor giving the rank and the student's abilities. As a black belt in karate, I trained Wado-ryu. The instructor was fine with me wearing my black belt while I trained. When we lined up, I lined up behind all the Wado BBs which was fine with me.
Having experience in another art definitely adds an exception, as long as the student can embrace the new material at the same rate they are progressing.
If the system you studied is fairly close and you can demonstrate proficiency then this isn’t a problem. You will have to learn all the material up to whatever ranking they allow you to move to. For example if you studied Taekwondo and then want to learn Hapkido or Tang Soo Do they are similar in many ways with many similar movements. They may ask you to learn the poomsae or form that is required for the rank. Example is if I went to learn Tang Soo Do, I’m a second degree black belt in Taekwondo. If I demonstrate proper skills and knowledge they may allow me to move directly to a black belt status and train with the black belt classes if I can prove that i can do it. I would be required to learn all the material relevant to Tang Soo Do specifically though. So is need to learn their forms and movements that differ from what I have studied before. So at first I probably will not be ranked black belt officially but I can move up quickly. They probably won’t have an issue if I trained and sparred with black belts because of my previous experience and ability, and I can wear my black belt but I may not be officially recognized yet.
Students who excel can be skipped. It is not something that I do often but on occasion. If a student does not meet the time, class attendance requirement and skill level they can not test. It doesn't matter how good they are. If the student has meet all requirements and on the day of the test show extra-ordinary skill, maturity and spirit they can possibly skip. But that is not a choice of the student. It is a decision on the examiner. Ranks can only be skipped at the kyu level. Now the student that skips is required to learn the material for both the rank that they skipped and the rank that they were skipped to. Skipping a rank is not a great thing because the student will be required to learn two katas and the material for both ranks. The student will not be tested for the rank that they skipped but they will have to know it.
I have a question for the community. I’m going for my black belt in Shuia Chiao and I started late in my martial art journey over 50 any tips to prepare myself? I just want to give my best
The moment you let this ride, you've compromised the soul of the school
What if you get a new student who has been training for let's say 4 years in kyokushin, Shotokan or Taekwondo. Would you have that student start on white and go through all the belts like anyone else?
In our school there's minimal rank segregation; white belts do the same basic exercises as black belts - but focus on different aspects.
someone who goes to 2 classes a week, and someone who goes 5 or 6 days a week, but they can only grade at the same time, this i always thought was wrong, providing there is a clear quality gap between the students in technique
What happens sometimes is the student who is more dedicated and more advanced is allowed to test and the other must wait until he is ready. Some schools aware rank when the instructor feels you are ready regardless of time spent as every individual is different and learns at a different pace.
I am currently a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo. I have to be a 5th degree to become a master. If my instructor let me skip ranks, even if it was only by one, I would leave.
I stopped practicing TKD about 12 years ago at red belt right before taking my black belt test... What degree do. I need to catch up to? Hahaha
Sifu/Sensei Meck. Weren't you talking about something like this in a video about two or three years ago?
@ArtofOneDojo How do you feel about transfer students? I.e. what if someone earns a black belt or 2nd or 3rd of 4th dan in Wado Ryu and Wants to Learn Goju Ryu or Shito Ryu? Or someone more esoteric like moving from Tang Soo Do to shotokan?
That is a different story and I still don't like the idea of SKIPPING ranks, I think that previous experience would definitely accelerate the process.
@ArtofOneDojo well. Skipping in the sense of...do they start higher than white? Or keep an equivalent grade. Or are you saying start back and white and just move faster to first dan?
@@slindsey15 My personal belief...and this is just me...but I believe when regardless of what are you have experience in...if you go to a knew school in a different system...you should start at white. It's always worth starting at the beginning of a new style. And then go through each rank because that school is going to be organized differently and it's worth understanding each level.
Now, if you have a lot of experience and can pick up the material faster, then that's awesome, acceleration is fine. But I think each rank needs to be experienced, even if it's for a very brief period. The more experienced the student, then the faster they can "catch up".
That's just my 2 cents.
The most important belt is the one holding up your pants.
Or the fan belt that keeps your car running so you can get to the dojo! :D
Time in grade means time training in grade not just time passing.
It doesn't matter if your skilled enogh to beat higher belts. The other part besides being combat ready is to be a STUDENT and learn the curriculum so that you can teach one day and CONTINUE your instructors lineage and the "art".
In my old school there was a 16 year old who was given a black belt after a year. He was so big (200+lbs) muscular and terrifyingly strong. He was also incredibly fast. In sparring he actually KO'd one of the instructors. Because of that they let so much go by the wayside as he was a literal gorilla. Their excuse was in Japan if a white belt defeated a black belt they would be given the black belt rank 🙄.
Oh man, that's actually unfortunate. Imagine how much better that guy would be after being given the proper structure and formal training. Taking his strength and then focusing it...he could elevate to a more proficient fighter.
@ArtofOneDojo honestly it put me off. He whooped me plenty and I was OK with that. It was the fact he just didn't get the love for it as me who wasn't very good but really loved the art.
Most American so called "schools or studio's" are just owner profit buildings, Much of the arts taught to children are ego / sports based. The ability to defend yourself under sudden attack takes years. Ranks / belts are games, a better measure is TODF (time on dojo floor). Children can learn kata , do established drills , break boards, at some point become good at padded up sports scoring points,,,,,,, what to do when confronted on the Walmart parking lot with 3 people swinging stick , pipe etc.... what leads up to this is TODF !
Do you use and advertising/marketing company? I am looking for one.
I currently do not use another company, all of our promotion is our own work here and on social media.
I just had my test i was a white belt and instead of going or yellow I skipped and got red (red is tge second colored belt after yellow in my country) because my teacher said I can go for red
There such a thing as a belt placement test 😅
Personnaly, i start competing in black belt catégories when i was green belt. And i ve never been 2nd and 1st kyu, i was 3rd kyu when i pass my shodan
What does it matter as long as the person has the ability/knowledge commensurate with that rank in that particular school? Insisting otherwise is just money grabbing and keeping people on as paying customers longer than necessary and seems more in the interest of the school/instructors than the students e.g. having a full school, apparent loyalty at least for a couple of years, money etc. At the end of the day, the rank is for the teacher to know what level the student is at and what can/cannot be taught to them. The mistake here is to conflate belt rank with some kind of personal achievement/status symbol that it has universal recognition. Taking 10 years to get a black belt instead of one does not mean it's worth more .....or less.
"person has the ability/knowledge commensurate with that rank" based on what I've seen, unless the student is exceptionally good or has prior experience...this is rarely the case. Some schools do drag students along for tuition, but those aren't good schools anyway.
There are plenty of schools that students will train at regardless of the rank...there's still so much after black belt anyway.
But you're right, it doesn't really matter, which is why a person shouldn't be focused on skipping and just focus on the material. In the end it's about the quality of training and too many people get hung up on the color around their waist. Like you said, just a curriculum marker.
People have unrealistic views it's a very common theme in the world of martial arts unfortunately
Age + Time in grade + proficiency. Considering the martial art and whether or not it is a competition sport as well ex. Judo and taekwondo. Sports like wrestling where there is no rank system so to speak. It is organized around weight and age. How many yellow and orange belts still can’t tie their own belts? On top of getting a 8th Dan in something. Your best knowledge and even competition is around 2nd and 3rd Dan. Ranks after that are merely your contribution to the art not necessarily knowledge gained but shared.
Just a thought but I could see rank skipping in specific circumstances such as a WTF Taekwondoist want to transfer into the ITF, where it is similar, but there are differences. He knows the techniques, but needs to learn the new schools methods instead. But i jumped ranks myself, when I was training with Grandmaster in Arizona, and I wish I went back and did each step, it make you feel that the work you put in has less value, even though you busted your butt to get where you are, and deserve it, the rank skipping devalues it.
WTF and ITF are basically the same matrisl arts, TKD. Just because Gen Choi had issue with other masters then they splited. Indeed there are variations, but they are minimal. One can catch the gap fast without tge necessity to downgrade the previous rank. Karate is different story. One should really check whether the previous style comes from the same familly as the new one. Cause here we cañ expect huge fundsmental differences.
Boy do I disagree with you. I went from a green belt to a 4th gup blue belt ( skipped the 5gup) and I won a trophy at the same promotion exam for extra performance in that promotion exam. I actually had been training MORE as I progressed ( about every day). I was 16 and this was mostly a dojo of adults. During the exam, my sabonim had me do a multi phase breaking technique, that was way beyond the skills of a 5th gup. My forms were perfect. Sparred beautifully. This was in the mid 60s. My instructor was proud of me. 6 mos later I became a 3rd gup brown.
Later, my instructor left that particular dojo. A new instructor promoted me 3 mos later to 2nd gup. When I re connected with my original sabonim , he made me go back to the last level HE had promoted me to which was 3rd gup. In essence the same instructor who skipped me a rank earlier, BASED ON MERIT, demoted me later, because he had not awarded the rank himself.
This was not a kids class in a McDojo school in a suburban strip mall.
What’s the problem with that? .
I don't understand the rank thing honestly. Why not just train to be lethal. Why do ppl need tangible things to justify skill?
It’s a complete marketing scheme that’s it
Because we want to systemize the training. Each ranks represents certain capability and time frame. Otherwise it is very easy to lose track. If you have very good trainer, perhaps it is ok for not having rank system, but what happends if the trainer is not exceptionally good?
It's often used that way but it's really supposed to just be a curriculum marker and nothing else.
@@ArtofOneDojo it is more complex than just a curriculum marker. I trained a traditional martrial arts in the past where the teacher would train whatever he had in his mind to different students. This MA is very cool but the issue of this approach the student will not automatically learn what they expect to learn when joining this MA. One should approach the teacher personally to be tought new techniques. There are also MA that teach nothing to the students for months expect stances or similar. Without a belt system as students we will never know when or whether we will learn how to fight. Jogoro Kano introduced belt system to give student short term targets to mantain the motivation of the students. Even military martrials have a type of belt system. If belt system is BS, military would not use it.
@@ArtofOneDojo without belt system the student will not know what to be expected.
What if your instructor decides to skip a student ???
Word crossed martial arts it is shotokan ,Burmese boxing and jujitsu.
I'd be more concerned by the precedence you set regarding who is running the "school"/system... the instructor or the parents.? If you fold to the parents wishes, you just became a McDojo and have lost all integrity... or authority for "the system"... Let's not fool ourselves here... The kid students pay the bills... and without them, you lose your shop... so I've seen a lot of schools buckle under to this pressure (especially during covid)...
If you miss time, you lose time. Its not middle school. Skills learned, power and speed developed and time-in-grade are the prerequisites for promotion. The karate parents (TKD, whatever) need to GO. I wouldn't prematurely promote a kid or an adult for any reason, I don't give a f**k who you are, how much you whine or anything. You earn promotion, period. Don't like it, go find a McDojo to train at.
It DOES happen that people will be promoted from one advanced rank to another to placate or reward someone who should be capable otherwise. Or, as in your case, the sensei knows you know the material and that you're basically doing it every time you're at the dojo training. And, I have heard that you get promoted when you've filled and completed your existing rank, then begin to fill the next rank.
I understand being a black belt and being given a stripe is not proper in your case. But younger students that can out perform the brown belts in the school in Kata and Kumite and win tournaments. Why should the student be held back when they are clearly Superior physically and mentally over the more advanced students. It's somewhat embarrassing for the brown belts to be losing to a yellow belt. I've seen students win Grand champion in tournaments and be promoted on the spot. You need to think about other scenarios other than your own. Clearly this wouldn't be a negative subject for you if you did not believe you were ready for your promotion. Now the entire world knows you were not ready.
I’ve seen this same thing happen time and time again.
Well the performance of a student is another discussion really, but I agree with you there. As far as skipping...if that student really can pick up the material that fast...then perhaps an accelerated pace is warranted. I don't think they should skip, but at least go through the material even if it's abbreviated.
As far as my own experience...what I hold negative was my Instructor's reason. I have no problem being open with the world, I have nothing to hide. But that's why I said I held MYSELF to the standard...I accepted it...but I didn't wear it until 6 months when I did earn it. I have been through the entire curriculum required for 5th degree, I earned it as much as anyone else...but I had to make that choice myself...I didn't just put it on when it was given to me. I made sure I completed it and actually earned it.
I wasn't ready when it was given to me, but I was ready 6 months later. It's just remembering the conversation I had with him that brings up the negative feelings, and because of that I'm harder on myself.
I have no shame in that.
Belt rankings are an artificial construct. No such thing as rankings in the old days. Can you really tell the difference between two adjacent rankings?
Belts are just curriculum markers...but people like to focus too much on them. Generally no, unless you know the academic material you wouldn't tell the differences between adjacent rankings, that's an excellent point.
Yeah, You seem to hit a nerve a lot. I remember leaving a comment on another channel, actually agreeing with you on something, and you basically blasted me saying I wasn't agreeing with you. In fact don't even answer this comment. Show me that you're a real martial artist and you can actually ignore something and move on. We dont need any more martial artist answering UA-cam videos anymore, we need more martial artist practicing martial arts.
Of course I'm going to reply, this is a discussion forum to discuss topics, whether we agree or not.
Can you please remind me which interaction we had recently? Which video or what the discussion was? I don't "blast" people for simply disagreeing with me, I typically engage in a discussion to find middle ground, so I feel there is a lot of missing context here.
What the martial arts actually needs is more people who will bring up topics, discuss them, hold themselves to standards, and be able to appreciate what others are doing. Not just people who drop a video and "move on".
Please provide the context of our previous encounter because it bothered you enough to come and leave a comment and then challenge me not to reply on my own discussion board.