Ain’t no way a dude who played 19 years, never missed the playoffs, had an above .500 record each year and won 5 rings isnt in the GOAT debate. Tims consistency and longevity is underrated.
Riddle me this: how many times during those 19 years was Tim the best player in the league? That's the weakness in his case. MJ, LBJ, even Kobe and Shaq have a much higher peak. Longevity is overrated. I'd rather have Bird or Magic than Duncan.
@@havok6280 From 2002-2007 he has a legitimate claim, and the fact that Kobe is up there despite his lack of team success is a little weak. Also you’re talking Shaq but in Timmy’s 30 games matched up in the playoffs against Lakers Shaq, he had 17 games with more combined points+rebounds. Their peaks are closer than people think.
@@metsrus I love that guy just like I loved Dirk both on and off court. Of course as a German I was more rooting for Dirk but Duncan is still the best PF ever.
@@PIP...33 I agree with you Mailman is best PF ever Garnett 2nd , cause they didnt had Admiral to prolong their career. Duncan never carry a team alone in career plus I will add fact : ''Tim Donaghy ref admit he bet in Vegas on almost every Shaq Kobe and Duncan rings from 1999-2007 he said Sacramento with Divac Webber and Blazers with Pippen and Sheed likewise Nash Amar'e and Matrix are real champions but his cre refs rigged Duncan Kobe Shaq rings in that period''
@@PIP...33 Losing gold vs weak team while u had 10 allstars proved that Duncan was never great player or leader. He was just ultra luckt to play in system where popovic load managed Admiral. If he wasnt sit entire season Robinson, Tim would end up in Vancouver and be solid 17 ppg 11 rpg PF with maybe Gasol career if he was luck to win 2 rings with superteam like Pau did Artest Kobe Odom Bynum.
I honestly quite disliked how LeBron's case was approached. It was from a place of arguing against fully exhausted criticisms of his career instead of focusing more intensely on what he's actually accomplished, which is a _lot_ and could be its own individual hour-long video.
Tim Duncan had only one season with under 50 wins. That was during the lock-out, when the Spurs had the best record in the league and won the championship. He wasn't a walking playoff berth; he was a walking home court advantage. He is one of the greatest defensive anchors, along with the likes of Russell and Hakeem, being elite in positioning, a gifted blocker, and more than that, one of the great intimidators. That, along with being one of the greatest back to the basket offensive players ever on an offense built around his ability to dominate there, turned the Spurs into a machine. Quoting a famous half-time speech by Pop: "we have Tim f***ing Duncan and they f***ing don't". But this doesn't really matter. The best way to measure the greatness of a player in the NBA is how easy it is to build a juggernaut around what they bring to the table. And in this, Tim Duncan may very well be second to none. Three completely different championship teams were built around his abilities; from the Twin Towers era, through the Trio era, to the Beautiful Game era. Few have had two teams; MJ, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Shaq. Three teams is Kareem, LeBron, Curry, and Tim Duncan, where you can put an asterisk on Kareem and LeBron for changing teams, on Curry for the KD import, but you just can't argue against Tim Duncan. He didn't get lucky. He wasn't bailed out by other stars. There are no cut corners in anything he did. And yet his results are up there with anyone, ever, in any sport.
*@davida* You should not put any asterisk next to LeBron, Kareem or Steph for changing teams or having a superstar added to the team, they still won championships with multiple different team make ups regardless of the process in which those different team makeups came about. All that matters when assessing a player as a player is what they do on the court with the team support that they have against the competition that they are against, that's it. The process in which their team support is assembled is irrelevant when assessing a player's greatness.
My favorite image from the video is Duncan pulling Parker away from LeBron by the jersey [20:40]. When a player is heated, yet calmly walks away because big bro pulled him, says everything about the leadership status Duncan had earned with his teammates.
Tim actually had a quadruple double in the finals. (Admitted biased Spurs fan but it’s the truth.) If u actually go back and watch that finals he had 10 blocks not 8, the staticians were ass and missed 2 blocks somehow. He records one with 6:41 left in the 3rd quarter which the NBA missed becuz they called it a pass when he was clearly going for a layup. The second one they missed is when Duncan and Robinson both contested a shot with 4:43 left in the 3rd. Duncan gets his hand in before Robinson making it a block for Duncan. Only 4 times has a quadruple double ever been recorded in NBA history Nate Thurmond in 1974, Alvin Robinson in 1986, The Dream in 1990, who did it twice in the same month, and David Robinson 1994. To my knowledge I think Tim is the only one to ever do it not only in the playoffs but it was also in the NBA finals. One of the GOAT
He really did. I’m a Magic fan so i don’t think your bias is relevant lol. Shame they didn’t officially record it correctly. A quadruple double to clinch the Finals is one of the greatest feats ever in basketball. Unreal tbh.
As a San Antonio native who experienced Timmy's full career (I was 12 years old when we drafted him) this might be the most accurate representation of him as a player. He is truly an introvert that loves to win at any cost. As a grown ass man who has made my money in part by my writing skills, I also acknowledge you for creating a wonderful script for this, Clayton. I tip my hat to you ❤️
Duncan is the ultimate “you had to have been there” player. Nearly every other player on his tier is better captured in a spreadsheet and also has a more memorable cultural/historical impact on the game. As time goes on players are inevitably judged by either the numbers, or the narrative. Timmy doesn’t really stand out in either which makes it difficult for him to be properly contextualized for new fans unless they want to do a lot of research.
Also Timmy has more or less disappeared since retiring. You can find him at Spurs' practices occasionally, mentoring Wemby and the other young guys on the team, but he's not in the media at all. So it's easier to forget about him. Take Charles Barkley as an example. If he hadn't been the lovable analyst on TNT all these years, I think his legacy and the cultural memory of his impact on the game would've faded much more quickly. His presence in the media has let him not be as forgotten and due to him being beloved by the younger generation who grew up watching him, his career has been re-evaluated positively over the years that may not have happened otherwise. But regardless, I highly doubt Tim Duncan cares about that at all. Which is exactly why he was so great. He didn't play for media points or legacy or to be the GOAT. He played for his guys, his team, and his coach. Everything else just didn't matter.
@@TheGeorgeD13And that sucks for us TD/Spurs fans!! The way they talk shit about TD today is so BLASPHEMOUS that I wished TD at times would just go on First Take or at NBA TNT to smack Shaq and the others since they all know he got their numbers!!
The fact that he has five championships in his career, with at least four relatively in prime, and his 2003 playoff performance is sometimes considered the best carry job ever may stand out to some. But I would agree that people wouldn’t necessarily say he has a GOAT case if they didn’t watch him play.
@@TheGeorgeD13 It's interesting you say that about Barkley. It reminded me that I first saw Charles Barkley in Space Jam as a kid and when I saw him on TV years later I wanted to learn more about him. I think his cultural relevance is definitely helped by how entangled his own story is with Jordon's.
Unfortunately, Timmy wont get his flowers till he passes. The NBA media will never accept the fact the one of the greatest NBA players of all time doesnt seek the limelight. They cant make money off marketing him. Timmy is better than both Kobe and Shaq, had a better career than Lebron, and was the GOAT of his era
Tim Duncan felt like the 2000’s Bill Russell. He was a quiet and humble man, who was a maniacal competitor and kept his team in title contention since his rookie year all the way until his retirement. I believe he is undoubtedly a Top 5 player of all time.
@@davis2k1234He said he was undoubtedly a top 5 player. He didn’t say he was the greatest he said he was in the conversation and that his temperament and demeanor were comparable to Bill Russell. How you twist that into him saying “Duncan was better than Kobe” is beyond me.
@@cowboyschad5x778 But which player was 4-1 vs Bill Russell in the playoffs in the 1960s? Thats why I commented and Duncan is a better player all time then Bill Russell though for sure
Around 2003, I loved the Detroit Pistons. I watched Tim Duncan absolutely eat them for breakfast. Not lunch or dinner, no. It was too easy if a meal for those two meals. He absolutely stomped the entire team over and over again and acted like it was the easiest thing ever! It was disgusting, and I hated him for it! He looked like a cheat code physically. A couple years later, I actually enjoyed playing basketball, and I was a post player (I'm 6'6"). I watched him with new eyes and fell in love. His unflappable play and absolutely brick-wall defense won me over. I started trying his footwork and moves and saw how well they worked. Then I got older and recognized his leadership and love for his teammates and became proud of a man living in such a public spotlight being such an incredible role model. Big Timmy is one of my absolute favorites now. Also, your video made me a bit emotional. Well done. It was beautiful!
"...the presence of a particular kind of selfless, relentless, independent-minded, publicity-averse, emotionally composed captain with strong communication skills". Amazing quote.
So glad Clayton revised and remade this one. It was always one of my favorites but the mistakes in it made it hard to come back to. Thats super normal for a first video though. This video is special
LOVE this re-upload. The original Timmy video is the first time I watched your work and I fell in love with just about everything you brought to the table: your writing, narrating voice, editing style and even music choice. And because of that the part where you said Tony and Manu were long shots for the hall of fame (or something along those lines) stuck out so much from what was to me an otherwise perfect Tim Duncan video. As a Spurs nerd and Manu fanatic I’m glad that part got fixed and as a longtime viewer of yours I’m so stoked for how close you are to 100k now. Looking forward to more of your stuff man. Cheers.
Tony Parker outperformed Tim Dunca in 2007 NBA Finals and won FMVP over him. Manu won gold medal for Argentina ironically against Tim Duncan lead USA team. David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard are top 30-25 players of all time. It’s a robbery that 4 time champions Tony Parker and Manu Ginóbili weren’t in the top 75 list. Manu sacrificed so much for the betterment of the team by coming off the bench as a 6th man when in reality he wasn’t just starter worthy, but he also was one of the best guards back in the mid 2000s.
@@vishtakes Parker didn't outperform Duncan in the 2007 Finals just because he was given the irrelevant opinion-based FMVP award. Even if I conceded that Parker outperformed Duncan in that series (which didn't), well Suncan was easily the best player on the team in the regular season and playoffs overall.
@@justsayin669 here’s the stats for the 2007 NBA Finals vs the Cavs Tony Parker: 24.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 3.3 assists on 56.8 % FG Tim Duncan: 18.3 points, 11.5 rebounds, 3,8 assists on 44.6% FG Outperformed by 6’2 Tony Parker he was way more efficient than 6’11 Tim Duncan this was his worst nba finals while still in his prime.
@@vishtakes You conveniently left out the blocks and steals of which Duncan averaged 2.3bpg and 1.3spg to Parker's 0.8spg and 0.0bpg... Duncan played WAAAYYY better defense than Parker as he always did. Duncan's defensive/rebounding advantages in that series outweighed Parker's scoring advantage in that series. Duncan (3.8apg) even averaged slightly more apg than Parker (3.3apg) on slightly less TOVs than Parker (2.8TOVs to 3.0TOVs).
@@justsayin669 that’s true to give some props on his defense but at the same time I listed their height for a reason. One Duncan is a center so he’s suppose to grab rebounds and rim protect. Tim does have Tony beat in assist by 0.5 assists ooo you got me there. Tony Parker was touching the Cavs which led to a sweep. 6’2 Tony Parker shot 56.8% from the field as a guard while Duncan had his worst playoff series shooting 44.6% which isn’t a good thing considering centers are suppose to naturally be more efficient. They take easier shots and can score over people also Tim was know for being efficient and having good fundamentals just wasn’t there that finals
Duncan is and will always be a goat! I don’t care what anyone says. He’s the one reason I loved to watch the team! The guy just carried himself a certain way! Loved watching them beat the heat for his last title. Literally brought me so much joy.
unfortunately the nba is also a game of marketing and personality. The only aspect of professional sports that Tim didn't excel at. Imagine if he had a mouth like Barkley and controversial.
In terms of transcendent talent, I think it's gotta be Jordan but if the question is "who would you build your franchise around if you wanted to win for a decade?" it's Duncan. MJ was, by all accounts, a psychotic asshole who won. Timmy was beloved and trusted as a leader and also was an absolute killer April-June. I don't think there's ever been a better teammate to play with.
Tim is my favourite athlete of all time. There is an article printed which states he has more wins for any franchise in any genre of sport than any other player. My GOAT!!!
Ducan is getting hella overrated wtf are you talking about? Dude had THE ADMIRAL and KAWHI on his team Both first ballot HoFers and both Manu and Parker are lower tier HoFers. Dude had plenty of help
@@jdrmanmusiqking Duncan’s best historical teammates were Robinson and Kawhi. At their peaks, both top 3 players in the league. But as we know, Duncan didn’t play with either at their peak. Robinson was 33 by the time Duncan joined him and on the decline. Kawhi didn’t even make an All-Star team until Duncan’s final season. His best actual teammates were Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Don’t be disingenuous and use the HOF tag. They are in the HOF because they played with Duncan. Both were late 1st or late 2nd round draft picks who developed because Duncan allowed them to. If you put Manu in Washington or Parker in Charlotte neither are doing anything. And the point still stands. If winning without a current All-NBA teammate is easy, why is Duncan the only player who ever did it more than once? Every other top 10 player played next to another superstar, apart from Duncan.
@@jdrmanmusiqking He had the worst version of Robinson, and Kawhi before he fully developed. Kawhi has gone on record saying he was able to play and develop on the Spurs specifically BECAUSE TD was there
I have Duncan ranked 3rd all time ahead of Kareem, Russell, Magic, Birdetc (only behind Jordan and Lebron) and I have all the receipts to back up why. No one has one 2-3 or more titles with less help than Duncan. You can say he only ever played with a legit superstar in his rookie season (Robinsons last prime year) and his retirement season (Kawhis first prime year). Those 18 years in between, no other superstar. No teammate made an all NBA 1st team. And yet no one carried his team on both ends to contention for close to 2 decades better than Duncan. Consider this, Duncan hold these record: - Most titles without an all NBA teammate (3) - Tied Most titles without an All Star (2 - 99 there was no All star but Robinson wasnt making it that year anyway) - Most titles without a teammate averaging at least 16ppg (3) or even 17ppg (4)
He actually won 4 without an All-NBA teammate And Kawhi wasn’t a superstar in Duncan’s final season, he made his first All-Star team that season But everything else you are right. I have Kareem over Duncan also, but that’s it (as well as of course MJ and Bron).
@@hardwoodthought1213in 2016 Kawhi was first team all nba. Was a top 5 player that season. Definitely was a superstar that year and moving forward. Either way it doesn’t matter since Duncan had officially fallen off and didn’t win anything that final year so it really doesn’t impact Duncan’s overall career as a winner.
Seeing this really touched my heart as a Spurs fan also a basketball fan. I say that because everyone knows he’s great in his position. He’s not just a GOAT, he’s definitely a top 5 NBA player of all time period. What Clayton says in this video was perfectionists of what makes the case of this player. Right now in the NBA, there will never ever be another Tim Duncan
Thing about Duncan is that he always just put his head down and put in *all* the work behind the scenes. He fucked around in Kobe's era and often got the best of him. He consistently pushed his teammates over the top in order to win. And Duncan always had a win-first, awards-later kind of mentality. This man is definitely in the GOAT conversation; just not for the conventional reasons
I will forever irrationality believe that if Pop doesn't pull Timmy on defense the Spurs win game 6 of the 13 finals. I will forever rationally believe that if Duncan was drafted by the Knicks instead of the Spurs and he had the exact same career accomplishments he would be way higher in the GoaT debates.
The GOAT debate is always going to be, to a degree, a popularity contest, and the story of Tim Duncan as you just told it makes him very popular with me. Well done. The Goat. +1
Only thing missing in this video is how intimidating and infuriating Tim Duncan was to his competitors. Players like Kevin Garnett and DeMarcus Cousins were thoroughly humbled if they dared to run their mouth off at him. A simple "good job" uttered from Tim's mouth infuriated his opponents.
I want to say thank you for putting these videos together. They have given me and my father a unique way to connect over our love for basketball. There is a generational gap and difference in our appreciation for many players, and you have presented valuable insight into not just how they played, but WHY they played. These videos have spurred conversations I will remember for years.
Every time I see Tim Duncan play. I wish I was shown his video instead Kobe Bryant. Wouldn't have tore my ligament trying to be athletic in a non-athletic body. If i would pick any player any era.... i have saying this for years. I would close my eyes and pick Tim Duncan without skipping a heart beat. I always want players like him who makes greatness achivable.
The lack of star players around him is the most convincing argument, David Robinson was a shadow of himself since 1999, Ginobli and Parker were great players but nowhere near the caliber of Pippen, Kobe, Wade etc...
Exactly. No player in league history won more than 1 title without a current All-NBA teammate, bar Duncan, who did it 4 times. Never had a teammate come close to an All-NBA first team
Said Wade like Lebron was playing with him his whole career. Lebron was carrying some weak Cavs teams to winning seasons while Duncan at least had Parker and Ginobli. Don’t get me wrong I love Timmy D and have him at the 7-8 range but people making goat argument for him are out of their mind
@@TinyCat1015 How is TD having a case or argument for being the Goat outrageous? Remember this is just a debate for candidates for the GOAT but TD doesn't deserve it? He has a better resume than Kobe Bryant and yet it doesn't make sense? Make it make sense
-- Agreed. He's not in anyone's immediate Top 10 but...when anyone looks at the accolades, defensive 1st teams, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. it's like: "huh, he's a Top 10 candidate" Like Timmy's game, his GOAT status is very lowkey. AND that's the way he likes it.
@@jlui21 dude even retired quietly. Kobe had a farewell tour every city he went to. People didn't know Duncan retired until he was giving his HoF speech lmaooo
I've watched the original Making the Case videos so many times I can't count. I can already tell off the beginning of this one that your cadence and inflection have changed on this revision, which may sound weird, but those videos are what got me into basketball in the first place. Learning about the greats who came before this era that I've been watching has been incredibly impactful, so thank for that sir! I always look forward to what you upload.
Kinda crazy that the original version of this was the first video Clayton uploaded to my knowledge and it can stand with his most recent in terms of quality like he’s definitely improved and there were some errors in the original but to debut with this level of quality it’s really impressive. like if you compare almost anyone else first ever yt vid to their most recent they would hold up a lot worse than this one does to Clayton’s most recent. one of the best basket ball creators on the platform was like that from day 1! Love it
I have personally thought he was arguably the GOAT for awhile but he's my all time favorite so I thought maybe I am bias; that was one hell of a case you made. Wow lol
You know what else people forget? Is that Tim Duncan got a late start to basketball imagine if he was always a basketball player instead of a swimmer first it’s scary what he accomplished getting a late start.
Hey buddy you gotta be the GOAT of this category of videos and I don’t think anyone needs to make a case for it. I’ve seen three of them now and by the end of this one, because of the nature of this man Tim, I was jerking back tears. Well done 👏👏👏
I mean, if you're a GM and you have to pick one person to draft it would be Tim if for no other reason other than you know he'll be there for 20 years and won't request a trade the second things start getting a bit difficult. He'll give you 20 years of being a champion contender, who else can you say that about?
*@kaitotatsuya* Ahead of LeBron or Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq? He may have an argument for being greater than 1 or 2 of them, but LeBron and Jordan are definitely the top 2.
@@justsayin669, lebron isnt even the greatest SF to ever play. That goes to Larry Bird. How can a guy be the goat of the NBA if he isnt even the goat at his position?
@@justsayin669, Bron was more physically gifted but that's where 8t ends. Bird didn't have access to the modern medicine Bron did and couldn't fix his back. But from the time Bird entered the league to the day he retired, Bird was the best player in the league. On top of all of that, Bird and Magic literally saved the NBA. Bron never has and never will impact the league to a degree anywhere close to what Bird and Magic did. And then there are all the intangibles that Bron lacks that Larry had in spades. I've seen LeBron's entire career and I saw Bird for most of his. Anyone who witnessed what we saw can tell that Bird is the greatest SF to ever play.
@@justsayin669 Tim Duncan 5× NBA champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014) 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005) 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002, 2003) 15× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000-2011, 2013, 2015) NBA All-Star Game co-MVP (2000) 10× All-NBA First Team (1998-2005, 2007, 2013) 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008, 2009) 2× All-NBA Third Team (2010, 2015) 8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1999-2003, 2005, 2007, 2008) 7× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015) NBA Rookie of the Year (1998) NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998) NBA Teammate of the Year (2015) No. 21 retired by San Antonio Spurs USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2003) Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (2003) IBM Award (2002) NBA 75th Anniversary Team National college player of the year (1997) 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1996, 1997) Chip Hilton Player of the Year (1997) NCAA rebounding leader (1997) 3× NABC Defensive Player of the Year (1995-1997) ACC Athlete of the Year (1997) 2× ACC Player of the Year (1996, 1997) 3× First-team All-ACC (1995-1997) No. 21 retired by Wake Forest Demon Deacons Yeah, He's definitely on my Top 2.
Though Kobe was my favorite during that time, Duncan is the player I would want to have a team around, not LeBron, not MJ, not Kobe…….Timmy is a foundation, he is Fundamental
It's the fact the team was essentially in contention for a title all of the years he played which is something you never see in any sport. He does deserve more respect.
As long as you consider him as one of the greatest Center too. Because it's right to compare Duncan to the Greatest Center than the Greatest Power Forward. Duncan having zero DPOY is criminal.
Agreed about DPOY, but I think it's the whole "no peak" thing. He was so great so consistently for so long, that no particular year stands out. Like, if he was going to be the DPOY in any year, he could be the DPOY in *_every_* year. Which would honestly be fine with me. For great centers, I think of the top tier as "The Magnificent Seven:" Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, Malone, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Russell. If we consider Duncan a center, he would absolutely be on that tier, and it would have to be called "The Elite Eight" or something. 🙂
The whole Duncan had Pop argument is eye roll inducing. Pop wasn’t a day 1 amazing coach. He was an average coach until 2003, then he became a good coach. It wasn’t until 2010 that Pop became a great coach. Duncan’s teammates being “amazing” is also far from the truth. Parker and Ginobili became pretty good players, but never All NBA 1st team, at best each of them made All NBA 2nd team one time each. His teams were solid depth and role players that just worked. Duncan sacrificed monster numbers for the team. That’s one of the reasons why he won 5 Championships. All Time, Duncan is anywhere from 4-7th greatest ever.
Do Lebron's again. His is the only one that makes sense because he actually added a lot to his case with the scoring record and the 4th title and FMVP.
@@justsayin669 and he should have won the scoring title the year he got hurt. Embiid won but Lebron was 100% the best scorer that season and would win with enough games. 2 scoring titles 15 years apart would be more impressive than 3-4 in a row
This series is great. Would you be willing to consider another series dedicated to who the best "sidekick" was for these Goats? Who was their overall best teammate they had during their careers? Keep up the great work! These videos are addictive 🍻
I’d love to see a “who’s the best player in the league right now” series like this. I feel like there’s a few people who could lay claim not to mention a couple dark horse candidates
The stat that stands out to me is 71% winning percentage over 19 years. 56 wins a year on average, and never missing the playoffs. Against teams with many talented players like the entire Laker run of Kobe and Shaq. Hard to believe.
My 16 year old son is a huge basketball fan, and when we went to Disney World, who did we see.......Tim Duncan in the flesh. My son asked him for a quick autograph, and Duncan flatly walked away.
Tim Duncan LeBron James and Michael Jordan from there decade (90s 00s 10s) are the only players to win multiple championships, fmvps and MVPs in NBA history.
This is literally the TRUE definition of the MOST underrated MOST under appreciated basketball player in the history of the sport. 15 all NBA defensive teams will never ever be broken. Had Ray Allen missed that shot, he would have 6, again 6 championships!! That along with all the players that were drafted by the organization. Not some weak move by getting trades and creating superteams.
*@trigun442* The process in which a team is assembled is irrelevant when assesing a player as a player. All that matters when assessing a player as a player is what they do on the court with the team support that they have against the competition that they are against, that's it.
Tim was a great player one of my favorites , i 1st saw him play for wake forrest and he was great. I loved that the Spurs got him, him together with David Robinson was so cool! Another great video Clayton. Showcasing one of the greats Tim Duncan I always thought Tim and Bill Russell had a connection, they seemed a lot alike, they always had great humility and seem like they would be a couple of the most chill people to hang out with😊
The 🐐 is still Jordan, but Duncan's just so incredubly underrated. Given his fundamentals and temperament, he would have been a franchise leading player for any team and won championships any era. Just so glad he did it with Pop, and I was never a Spurs fan. Even if he's not the goat, watching him play made me fall in love with the game again. I'm old and watched the game since the early 90s, and feel so sorry for young bball fans in the current era who never got to watch the game when it was more balanced and had more diversity in styles and players.
I agree. I think LeBron will always be #2, but a lot closer than people in my generation will give him credit for. I think the problem is that the discussion began about a decade too early cause ESPN knew how to generate views with shitty hot takes. It's why the level of discourse around sports and online turns into flame wars where people attack each other and delve into ad hominem against someone who is a fan of other players. This series by Clayton allows us to celebrate 8 great players who are near the top of the sport without necessarily shitting on other players. Acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses without shitting on MJ, LBJ, Shaq, etc. Just note the differences and give your opinion, but allow for differing opinions. The way discourse should be IMO, but sadly isn't anymore.
Wow. Exceptional video. Rhetorically excellent and carefully researched. It's almost taboo to imagine anyone except Jordan or LeBron as truly the greatest, but you make it seem unquestionably reasonable.
It is hard to think of a player to build your franchise who is more likely to bring success regardless of circumstance. Duncan would have enabled any coach to be better. It isn't fair to criticize Duncan for having Pop while other ego driven superstars don't get criticized for failing to accept coaching, or relaying on all time great coaches to get them to buy into the team. Duncan isn't by conventional GOAT definition my choice, but his case is by far my favorite. There isn't another player I'd bet on to generate success across eras, rulesets, and coaching staff/teammate variables.
Clayton, Thank you so much for what you do. This is some of the best sports content I’ve ever seen. The way you tell these stories is so moving. Amazing work.
Ain’t no way a dude who played 19 years, never missed the playoffs, had an above .500 record each year and won 5 rings isnt in the GOAT debate. Tims consistency and longevity is underrated.
Duncan would be no.2 for the guy I would be pick in an all time draft to build my franchise around, after Bron.
Riddle me this: how many times during those 19 years was Tim the best player in the league? That's the weakness in his case. MJ, LBJ, even Kobe and Shaq have a much higher peak.
Longevity is overrated. I'd rather have Bird or Magic than Duncan.
@@havok6280 From 2002-2007 he has a legitimate claim, and the fact that Kobe is up there despite his lack of team success is a little weak. Also you’re talking Shaq but in Timmy’s 30 games matched up in the playoffs against Lakers Shaq, he had 17 games with more combined points+rebounds. Their peaks are closer than people think.
@@havok6280Tim Duncan was arguably one of the best players in the league in his prime. Elite scorer, rebounder, and defender
@@pranavarora9976what about hakeem though?!
Him not winning any single DPOY despite having the most all-nba defensive selection in history is one of the biggest robbery in sports history
Naw them robbing him of a quadruple double in the finals
unfortunately the nba is also a game of marketing and personality. The only things that Tim didn't excel at.
@@metsrus I love that guy just like I loved Dirk both on and off court. Of course as a German I was more rooting for Dirk but Duncan is still the best PF ever.
Sounds like Duncan was a consistently great defender that no single season stood out.
I agree though, he deserved at least one or two.
That doesn't really mean anything. A player could be a consistent no question 1st team defense without ever being in contention for DPOY.
If you think I'm gonna watch the same Tim Duncan video, revised and reuploaded again you'd be absolutely fucking right.
lol
@@ottogarvens Same....
Settles then!
Just watched it again.....
My man ✊
Other than MJ and LeBron, this was the “making the case” episode that was most convincing to me.
goats dont really choke in the finals...
@@PIP...33 I agree with you Mailman is best PF ever Garnett 2nd , cause they didnt had Admiral to prolong their career. Duncan never carry a team alone in career plus I will add fact : ''Tim Donaghy ref admit he bet in Vegas on almost every Shaq Kobe and Duncan rings from 1999-2007 he said Sacramento with Divac Webber and Blazers with Pippen and Sheed likewise Nash Amar'e and Matrix are real champions but his cre refs rigged Duncan Kobe Shaq rings in that period''
@@Celtics6-0vsMonkeyJordan FACTS MATE. REFS RIGGED MOST OF DUNCAN JORDAN SHAQ KOBE RINGS
@@PIP...33 Losing gold vs weak team while u had 10 allstars proved that Duncan was never great player or leader. He was just ultra luckt to play in system where popovic load managed Admiral. If he wasnt sit entire season Robinson, Tim would end up in Vancouver and be solid 17 ppg 11 rpg PF with maybe Gasol career if he was luck to win 2 rings with superteam like Pau did Artest Kobe Odom Bynum.
I honestly quite disliked how LeBron's case was approached. It was from a place of arguing against fully exhausted criticisms of his career instead of focusing more intensely on what he's actually accomplished, which is a _lot_ and could be its own individual hour-long video.
Snapple fact: Duncan lead the league in blocks that stayed in bounds and went to teammates. Little things like that show his genius.
Tim Duncan had only one season with under 50 wins. That was during the lock-out, when the Spurs had the best record in the league and won the championship. He wasn't a walking playoff berth; he was a walking home court advantage. He is one of the greatest defensive anchors, along with the likes of Russell and Hakeem, being elite in positioning, a gifted blocker, and more than that, one of the great intimidators. That, along with being one of the greatest back to the basket offensive players ever on an offense built around his ability to dominate there, turned the Spurs into a machine. Quoting a famous half-time speech by Pop: "we have Tim f***ing Duncan and they f***ing don't".
But this doesn't really matter. The best way to measure the greatness of a player in the NBA is how easy it is to build a juggernaut around what they bring to the table. And in this, Tim Duncan may very well be second to none. Three completely different championship teams were built around his abilities; from the Twin Towers era, through the Trio era, to the Beautiful Game era. Few have had two teams; MJ, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kobe, and Shaq. Three teams is Kareem, LeBron, Curry, and Tim Duncan, where you can put an asterisk on Kareem and LeBron for changing teams, on Curry for the KD import, but you just can't argue against Tim Duncan.
He didn't get lucky. He wasn't bailed out by other stars. There are no cut corners in anything he did. And yet his results are up there with anyone, ever, in any sport.
Nuff said.
*@davida*
You should not put any asterisk next to LeBron, Kareem or Steph for changing teams or having a superstar added to the team, they still won championships with multiple different team make ups regardless of the process in which those different team makeups came about. All that matters when assessing a player as a player is what they do on the court with the team support that they have against the competition that they are against, that's it. The process in which their team support is assembled is irrelevant when assessing a player's greatness.
Well said.
@@justsayin669 you think LeBron is the goat. Just say it 😂
@@elcochino8139
Yeah he would probably be my pick for the GOAT although Jordan is extremely close if not slightly greater... What's your point?
A quote I heard that sums up Tim Duncan as a player.
“I rather people ask why I don’t have a statue, than ask why I do.”
This was the only "Making the case" video that convinced me
Larry Bird was strong too though!
Every time I watch the Lebron or Jordan videos I change my GOAT opinion
Sorry but any GOAT video that’s NOT MJ isn’t to be convincing enough or even realistic.
@@dallasb871pleb tier opinion, go back to watching first take
My favorite image from the video is Duncan pulling Parker away from LeBron by the jersey [20:40]. When a player is heated, yet calmly walks away because big bro pulled him, says everything about the leadership status Duncan had earned with his teammates.
Tim actually had a quadruple double in the finals. (Admitted biased Spurs fan but it’s the truth.) If u actually go back and watch that finals he had 10 blocks not 8, the staticians were ass and missed 2 blocks somehow. He records one with 6:41 left in the 3rd quarter which the NBA missed becuz they called it a pass when he was clearly going for a layup. The second one they missed is when Duncan and Robinson both contested a shot with 4:43 left in the 3rd. Duncan gets his hand in before Robinson making it a block for Duncan. Only 4 times has a quadruple double ever been recorded in NBA history Nate Thurmond in 1974, Alvin Robinson in 1986, The Dream in 1990, who did it twice in the same month, and David Robinson 1994. To my knowledge I think Tim is the only one to ever do it not only in the playoffs but it was also in the NBA finals. One of the GOAT
He really did. I’m a Magic fan so i don’t think your bias is relevant lol. Shame they didn’t officially record it correctly. A quadruple double to clinch the Finals is one of the greatest feats ever in basketball. Unreal tbh.
As a San Antonio native who experienced Timmy's full career (I was 12 years old when we drafted him) this might be the most accurate representation of him as a player. He is truly an introvert that loves to win at any cost. As a grown ass man who has made my money in part by my writing skills, I also acknowledge you for creating a wonderful script for this, Clayton. I tip my hat to you ❤️
Duncan is the ultimate “you had to have been there” player.
Nearly every other player on his tier is better captured in a spreadsheet and also has a more memorable cultural/historical impact on the game.
As time goes on players are inevitably judged by either the numbers, or the narrative. Timmy doesn’t really stand out in either which makes it difficult for him to be properly contextualized for new fans unless they want to do a lot of research.
Also Timmy has more or less disappeared since retiring. You can find him at Spurs' practices occasionally, mentoring Wemby and the other young guys on the team, but he's not in the media at all. So it's easier to forget about him.
Take Charles Barkley as an example. If he hadn't been the lovable analyst on TNT all these years, I think his legacy and the cultural memory of his impact on the game would've faded much more quickly. His presence in the media has let him not be as forgotten and due to him being beloved by the younger generation who grew up watching him, his career has been re-evaluated positively over the years that may not have happened otherwise.
But regardless, I highly doubt Tim Duncan cares about that at all. Which is exactly why he was so great. He didn't play for media points or legacy or to be the GOAT. He played for his guys, his team, and his coach. Everything else just didn't matter.
@@TheGeorgeD13And that sucks for us TD/Spurs fans!! The way they talk shit about TD today is so BLASPHEMOUS that I wished TD at times would just go on First Take or at NBA TNT to smack Shaq and the others since they all know he got their numbers!!
The fact that he has five championships in his career, with at least four relatively in prime, and his 2003 playoff performance is sometimes considered the best carry job ever may stand out to some.
But I would agree that people wouldn’t necessarily say he has a GOAT case if they didn’t watch him play.
@@TheGeorgeD13 It's interesting you say that about Barkley. It reminded me that I first saw Charles Barkley in Space Jam as a kid and when I saw him on TV years later I wanted to learn more about him. I think his cultural relevance is definitely helped by how entangled his own story is with Jordon's.
This and the Bird episode are probably the two videos that have changed my view on players place in the GOAT debate the most
Same for me! Thank you Clayton for showing us the indepth knowledge of why they deserve to be in the debate!
Apsolutely agree
Unfortunately, Timmy wont get his flowers till he passes. The NBA media will never accept the fact the one of the greatest NBA players of all time doesnt seek the limelight. They cant make money off marketing him. Timmy is better than both Kobe and Shaq, had a better career than Lebron, and was the GOAT of his era
Tim Duncan felt like the 2000’s Bill Russell. He was a quiet and humble man, who was a maniacal competitor and kept his team in title contention since his rookie year all the way until his retirement. I believe he is undoubtedly a Top 5 player of all time.
Kobe beat him 4-1 in the 2000s stop it Kobe owned the Spurs
@@davis2k1234just tell people you don't know ball.
@@davis2k1234He said he was undoubtedly a top 5 player. He didn’t say he was the greatest he said he was in the conversation and that his temperament and demeanor were comparable to Bill Russell. How you twist that into him saying “Duncan was better than Kobe” is beyond me.
@@cowboyschad5x778 But which player was 4-1 vs Bill Russell in the playoffs in the 1960s? Thats why I commented and Duncan is a better player all time then Bill Russell though for sure
@@davis2k1234 With Shaq and Pau+Odom, lol.
Around 2003, I loved the Detroit Pistons. I watched Tim Duncan absolutely eat them for breakfast. Not lunch or dinner, no. It was too easy if a meal for those two meals. He absolutely stomped the entire team over and over again and acted like it was the easiest thing ever! It was disgusting, and I hated him for it! He looked like a cheat code physically.
A couple years later, I actually enjoyed playing basketball, and I was a post player (I'm 6'6"). I watched him with new eyes and fell in love. His unflappable play and absolutely brick-wall defense won me over. I started trying his footwork and moves and saw how well they worked. Then I got older and recognized his leadership and love for his teammates and became proud of a man living in such a public spotlight being such an incredible role model.
Big Timmy is one of my absolute favorites now.
Also, your video made me a bit emotional. Well done. It was beautiful!
"...the presence of a particular kind of selfless, relentless, independent-minded, publicity-averse, emotionally composed captain with strong communication skills".
Amazing quote.
So glad Clayton revised and remade this one. It was always one of my favorites but the mistakes in it made it hard to come back to. Thats super normal for a first video though. This video is special
LOVE this re-upload.
The original Timmy video is the first time I watched your work and I fell in love with just about everything you brought to the table: your writing, narrating voice, editing style and even music choice.
And because of that the part where you said Tony and Manu were long shots for the hall of fame (or something along those lines) stuck out so much from what was to me an otherwise perfect Tim Duncan video.
As a Spurs nerd and Manu fanatic I’m glad that part got fixed and as a longtime viewer of yours I’m so stoked for how close you are to 100k now.
Looking forward to more of your stuff man. Cheers.
Tony Parker outperformed Tim Dunca in 2007 NBA Finals and won FMVP over him. Manu won gold medal for Argentina ironically against Tim Duncan lead USA team. David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard are top 30-25 players of all time. It’s a robbery that 4 time champions Tony Parker and Manu Ginóbili weren’t in the top 75 list. Manu sacrificed so much for the betterment of the team by coming off the bench as a 6th man when in reality he wasn’t just starter worthy, but he also was one of the best guards back in the mid 2000s.
@@vishtakes
Parker didn't outperform Duncan in the 2007 Finals just because he was given the irrelevant opinion-based FMVP award. Even if I conceded that Parker outperformed Duncan in that series (which didn't), well Suncan was easily the best player on the team in the regular season and playoffs overall.
@@justsayin669 here’s the stats for the 2007 NBA Finals vs the Cavs
Tony Parker: 24.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 3.3 assists on 56.8 % FG
Tim Duncan: 18.3 points, 11.5 rebounds, 3,8 assists on 44.6% FG
Outperformed by 6’2 Tony Parker he was way more efficient than 6’11 Tim Duncan this was his worst nba finals while still in his prime.
@@vishtakes
You conveniently left out the blocks and steals of which Duncan averaged 2.3bpg and 1.3spg to Parker's 0.8spg and 0.0bpg... Duncan played WAAAYYY better defense than Parker as he always did. Duncan's defensive/rebounding advantages in that series outweighed Parker's scoring advantage in that series. Duncan (3.8apg) even averaged slightly more apg than Parker (3.3apg) on slightly less TOVs than Parker (2.8TOVs to 3.0TOVs).
@@justsayin669 that’s true to give some props on his defense but at the same time I listed their height for a reason. One Duncan is a center so he’s suppose to grab rebounds and rim protect. Tim does have Tony beat in assist by 0.5 assists ooo you got me there. Tony Parker was touching the Cavs which led to a sweep. 6’2 Tony Parker shot 56.8% from the field as a guard while Duncan had his worst playoff series shooting 44.6% which isn’t a good thing considering centers are suppose to naturally be more efficient. They take easier shots and can score over people also Tim was know for being efficient and having good fundamentals just wasn’t there that finals
Duncan is and will always be a goat! I don’t care what anyone says. He’s the one reason I loved to watch the team! The guy just carried himself a certain way! Loved watching them beat the heat for his last title. Literally brought me so much joy.
unfortunately the nba is also a game of marketing and personality. The only aspect of professional sports that Tim didn't excel at. Imagine if he had a mouth like Barkley and controversial.
@@metsrus sure if that’s what you want. I don’t like players like that. Talk too much
In terms of transcendent talent, I think it's gotta be Jordan but if the question is "who would you build your franchise around if you wanted to win for a decade?" it's Duncan. MJ was, by all accounts, a psychotic asshole who won. Timmy was beloved and trusted as a leader and also was an absolute killer April-June. I don't think there's ever been a better teammate to play with.
Tim is my favourite athlete of all time. There is an article printed which states he has more wins for any franchise in any genre of sport than any other player. My GOAT!!!
No one in the history of basketball won more than 1 title without a CURRENT All-NBA teammate
Apart from Duncan, who did it 4 times.
Ducan is getting hella overrated wtf are you talking about? Dude had THE ADMIRAL and KAWHI on his team
Both first ballot HoFers and both Manu and Parker are lower tier HoFers. Dude had plenty of help
@@jdrmanmusiqking Duncan’s best historical teammates were Robinson and Kawhi. At their peaks, both top 3 players in the league. But as we know, Duncan didn’t play with either at their peak. Robinson was 33 by the time Duncan joined him and on the decline. Kawhi didn’t even make an All-Star team until Duncan’s final season.
His best actual teammates were Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Don’t be disingenuous and use the HOF tag. They are in the HOF because they played with Duncan. Both were late 1st or late 2nd round draft picks who developed because Duncan allowed them to. If you put Manu in Washington or Parker in Charlotte neither are doing anything.
And the point still stands. If winning without a current All-NBA teammate is easy, why is Duncan the only player who ever did it more than once? Every other top 10 player played next to another superstar, apart from Duncan.
@@jdrmanmusiqking He had the worst version of Robinson, and Kawhi before he fully developed. Kawhi has gone on record saying he was able to play and develop on the Spurs specifically BECAUSE TD was there
kobe?
@@gamergod3798 Kobe didn’t even win a playoff series outside of 2008 unless a teammate of his made All-NBA that season
I have Duncan ranked 3rd all time ahead of Kareem, Russell, Magic, Birdetc (only behind Jordan and Lebron) and I have all the receipts to back up why. No one has one 2-3 or more titles with less help than Duncan. You can say he only ever played with a legit superstar in his rookie season (Robinsons last prime year) and his retirement season (Kawhis first prime year). Those 18 years in between, no other superstar. No teammate made an all NBA 1st team. And yet no one carried his team on both ends to contention for close to 2 decades better than Duncan. Consider this, Duncan hold these record:
- Most titles without an all NBA teammate (3)
- Tied Most titles without an All Star (2 - 99 there was no All star but Robinson wasnt making it that year anyway)
- Most titles without a teammate averaging at least 16ppg (3) or even 17ppg (4)
He actually won 4 without an All-NBA teammate
And Kawhi wasn’t a superstar in Duncan’s final season, he made his first All-Star team that season
But everything else you are right. I have Kareem over Duncan also, but that’s it (as well as of course MJ and Bron).
@@hardwoodthought1213in 2016 Kawhi was first team all nba. Was a top 5 player that season. Definitely was a superstar that year and moving forward. Either way it doesn’t matter since Duncan had officially fallen off and didn’t win anything that final year so it really doesn’t impact Duncan’s overall career as a winner.
That intro you wrote is still my favorite description of basketball.
Seeing this really touched my heart as a Spurs fan also a basketball fan. I say that because everyone knows he’s great in his position. He’s not just a GOAT, he’s definitely a top 5 NBA player of all time period. What Clayton says in this video was perfectionists of what makes the case of this player. Right now in the NBA, there will never ever be another Tim Duncan
*@garyleroy91*
I would put LeBron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq ahead of Duncan. Still an amazing player and top 10 in my book.
"Not just a GOAT"
Do you even know what GOAT means?
@@justsayin669yeah I have him in that 7-8 range
Thing about Duncan is that he always just put his head down and put in *all* the work behind the scenes.
He fucked around in Kobe's era and often got the best of him. He consistently pushed his teammates over the top in order to win.
And Duncan always had a win-first, awards-later kind of mentality. This man is definitely in the GOAT conversation; just not for the conventional reasons
I feel like if he was 6-0 in the finals we'd have different convos.
I will forever irrationality believe that if Pop doesn't pull Timmy on defense the Spurs win game 6 of the 13 finals.
I will forever rationally believe that if Duncan was drafted by the Knicks instead of the Spurs and he had the exact same career accomplishments he would be way higher in the GoaT debates.
@@Peter-hx3im True
What blows my mind, is that Timmy was a swimmer and literally defaulted to bball. Truly a one of a kind ...
The GOAT debate is always going to be, to a degree, a popularity contest, and the story of Tim Duncan as you just told it makes him very popular with me. Well done. The Goat. +1
Timmy just isn’t a goat. He’s an amazing player but I don’t personally have him in the top 5. I have him around the 7-8 range
Gotta love Tim Duncan
Making the Case - Tim Duncan [Chopped N Screwed (reverb)]
Only thing missing in this video is how intimidating and infuriating Tim Duncan was to his competitors. Players like Kevin Garnett and DeMarcus Cousins were thoroughly humbled if they dared to run their mouth off at him. A simple "good job" uttered from Tim's mouth infuriated his opponents.
Timmy studied psychology in college. He LEARNED exactly how to get into someone’s head and inflict major psychological damage.
"Ooo almost" is probably the best one KG talked about lol that one killed me
Thank you for another excuse to watch this again. One of my most favorite basketball videos of all time.
Tim Duncan is the Bill Russell of our era. So many rings it's basically ignored.
How is he Bill Russell?
Tim Duncan is my favorite player because of you!! Thank you!!
all-time hater@@PIP...33
Tim Duncan has always been my favorite player. This video just puts it together so friggin well. Not even a Spurs fan.
Tim Duncan to me is the Greatest player ever. I know this is a reupload so of course I can watch this all the time
I see Clayton, I watch Clayton. Pretty simple
I want to say thank you for putting these videos together. They have given me and my father a unique way to connect over our love for basketball. There is a generational gap and difference in our appreciation for many players, and you have presented valuable insight into not just how they played, but WHY they played.
These videos have spurred conversations I will remember for years.
I love this comment, and I love that for your and your dad, brother. Cherishing moments w our fathers is something a lot of people take for granted ❤
Tim Duncan was always my favorite player growing up. Dude was simply HIM.
Every time I see Tim Duncan play. I wish I was shown his video instead Kobe Bryant. Wouldn't have tore my ligament trying to be athletic in a non-athletic body.
If i would pick any player any era.... i have saying this for years. I would close my eyes and pick Tim Duncan without skipping a heart beat. I always want players like him who makes greatness achivable.
The lack of star players around him is the most convincing argument, David Robinson was a shadow of himself since 1999, Ginobli and Parker were great players but nowhere near the caliber of Pippen, Kobe, Wade etc...
Exactly. No player in league history won more than 1 title without a current All-NBA teammate, bar Duncan, who did it 4 times.
Never had a teammate come close to an All-NBA first team
Said Wade like Lebron was playing with him his whole career. Lebron was carrying some weak Cavs teams to winning seasons while Duncan at least had Parker and Ginobli. Don’t get me wrong I love Timmy D and have him at the 7-8 range but people making goat argument for him are out of their mind
@@TinyCat1015 How is TD having a case or argument for being the Goat outrageous? Remember this is just a debate for candidates for the GOAT but TD doesn't deserve it? He has a better resume than Kobe Bryant and yet it doesn't make sense? Make it make sense
@@kaiserkeren9495 because there are only 2 goat candidates. Lebron and MJ
Great video mate! TD get criminally overlooked in GOAT conversations. An absolute gem. Great work! Cheers Clayton!
-- Agreed. He's not in anyone's immediate Top 10 but...when anyone looks at the accolades, defensive 1st teams, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. it's like: "huh, he's a Top 10 candidate"
Like Timmy's game, his GOAT status is very lowkey. AND that's the way he likes it.
@@jlui21 dude even retired quietly. Kobe had a farewell tour every city he went to. People didn't know Duncan retired until he was giving his HoF speech lmaooo
Love that you included the photo of MJ and LeBron from the 75th anniversary celebration.
I've watched the original Making the Case videos so many times I can't count. I can already tell off the beginning of this one that your cadence and inflection have changed on this revision, which may sound weird, but those videos are what got me into basketball in the first place. Learning about the greats who came before this era that I've been watching has been incredibly impactful, so thank for that sir! I always look forward to what you upload.
Kinda crazy that the original version of this was the first video Clayton uploaded to my knowledge and it can stand with his most recent in terms of quality like he’s definitely improved and there were some errors in the original but to debut with this level of quality it’s really impressive. like if you compare almost anyone else first ever yt vid to their most recent they would hold up a lot worse than this one does to Clayton’s most recent. one of the best basket ball creators on the platform was like that from day 1! Love it
I have personally thought he was arguably the GOAT for awhile but he's my all time favorite so I thought maybe I am bias; that was one hell of a case you made. Wow lol
Tim is my favorite athlete of all time. I always thought he was the best franchise player of all time, and therefore he clearly has a case for GOAT.
This introduction is genuinely great, well written and has great clips to visually demonstrate what’s being said as it’s said.
Timmy’s my favorite player and I loved your original video. Hell of a birthday gift!!
What a next level compliment by Pop especially when you think of all the extraordinary people Pop has to have met. Tim must be a very special person.
You know what else people forget? Is that Tim Duncan got a late start to basketball imagine if he was always a basketball player instead of a swimmer first it’s scary what he accomplished getting a late start.
Absolute masterpiece. Thanks for revising and re-uploading. 10/10.
Objectively the greatest PF of all time, and he definitely deserves his spot in the GOAT debate. The fact he never had a DPOY is horrifying
I use Tim Duncan as a litmus test for judging someone's basketball knowledge when I'm talking to them. He's underrated just because he wasn't flashy.
A pure masterpiece. Thanks for all the work and time and love you poured into this.
Hey buddy you gotta be the GOAT of this category of videos and I don’t think anyone needs to make a case for it. I’ve seen three of them now and by the end of this one, because of the nature of this man Tim, I was jerking back tears. Well done 👏👏👏
Wow. It took a little time to get used to the slower pacing of your narration, but I think you did a great job with this one Clayton. Great work!
I'm sure the best power forward debate for sure
I mean, if you're a GM and you have to pick one person to draft it would be Tim if for no other reason other than you know he'll be there for 20 years and won't request a trade the second things start getting a bit difficult.
He'll give you 20 years of being a champion contender, who else can you say that about?
The Barry tweet and Bud quote is all that needs to be said about TD. I'm honored I got to watch his career from start to finish
Finally, Tim Duncan is the no 2 in my top 10 list .
This video really made my day
*@kaitotatsuya*
Ahead of LeBron or Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq? He may have an argument for being greater than 1 or 2 of them, but LeBron and Jordan are definitely the top 2.
@@justsayin669, lebron isnt even the greatest SF to ever play. That goes to Larry Bird. How can a guy be the goat of the NBA if he isnt even the goat at his position?
@@MaddDogg316
LeBron is greater than Bird although Bird is a close 3rd behind LeBron and Jordan imo.
@@justsayin669, Bron was more physically gifted but that's where 8t ends. Bird didn't have access to the modern medicine Bron did and couldn't fix his back. But from the time Bird entered the league to the day he retired, Bird was the best player in the league. On top of all of that, Bird and Magic literally saved the NBA. Bron never has and never will impact the league to a degree anywhere close to what Bird and Magic did. And then there are all the intangibles that Bron lacks that Larry had in spades. I've seen LeBron's entire career and I saw Bird for most of his. Anyone who witnessed what we saw can tell that Bird is the greatest SF to ever play.
@@justsayin669
Tim Duncan
5× NBA champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002, 2003)
15× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000-2011, 2013, 2015)
NBA All-Star Game co-MVP (2000)
10× All-NBA First Team (1998-2005, 2007, 2013)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008, 2009)
2× All-NBA Third Team (2010, 2015)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1999-2003, 2005, 2007, 2008)
7× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
NBA Teammate of the Year (2015)
No. 21 retired by San Antonio Spurs
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (2003)
Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (2003)
IBM Award (2002)
NBA 75th Anniversary Team
National college player of the year (1997)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1996, 1997)
Chip Hilton Player of the Year (1997)
NCAA rebounding leader (1997)
3× NABC Defensive Player of the Year (1995-1997)
ACC Athlete of the Year (1997)
2× ACC Player of the Year (1996, 1997)
3× First-team All-ACC (1995-1997)
No. 21 retired by Wake Forest Demon Deacons
Yeah, He's definitely on my Top 2.
Tim Duncan is (and always was) my favourite player of all-time. I love the nod you give and the case you make for him. As a fan; thank you.
Though Kobe was my favorite during that time, Duncan is the player I would want to have a team around, not LeBron, not MJ, not Kobe…….Timmy is a foundation, he is Fundamental
It's the fact the team was essentially in contention for a title all of the years he played which is something you never see in any sport. He does deserve more respect.
As long as you consider him as one of the greatest Center too. Because it's right to compare Duncan to the Greatest Center than the Greatest Power Forward. Duncan having zero DPOY is criminal.
Agreed about DPOY, but I think it's the whole "no peak" thing. He was so great so consistently for so long, that no particular year stands out. Like, if he was going to be the DPOY in any year, he could be the DPOY in *_every_* year. Which would honestly be fine with me.
For great centers, I think of the top tier as "The Magnificent Seven:" Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, Malone, O'Neal, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Russell. If we consider Duncan a center, he would absolutely be on that tier, and it would have to be called "The Elite Eight" or something. 🙂
@@derekfnord, Malone was actually a PF, not center. Although he did play small ball center a lot. But so did Tim.
A revised version? Why hello "valid reason" to re-watch the Tim Duncan GOAT case.
Absolutely beautiful ❤
Thank you for always putting together the best of a player !
He was the most important player on his team in every season except his last (which he was still the best rim protector in the league).
This channel doesn't get enough love
The whole Duncan had Pop argument is eye roll inducing.
Pop wasn’t a day 1 amazing coach. He was an average coach until 2003, then he became a good coach. It wasn’t until 2010 that Pop became a great coach.
Duncan’s teammates being “amazing” is also far from the truth. Parker and Ginobili became pretty good players, but never All NBA 1st team, at best each of them made All NBA 2nd team one time each.
His teams were solid depth and role players that just worked.
Duncan sacrificed monster numbers for the team. That’s one of the reasons why he won 5 Championships.
All Time, Duncan is anywhere from 4-7th greatest ever.
What about David Robinson?
Do Lebron's again. His is the only one that makes sense because he actually added a lot to his case with the scoring record and the 4th title and FMVP.
True
*@felipefasanella7764*
Don't forget the assist title.
@@justsayin669 and he should have won the scoring title the year he got hurt. Embiid won but Lebron was 100% the best scorer that season and would win with enough games. 2 scoring titles 15 years apart would be more impressive than 3-4 in a row
The man that got me into Basketball. That Spurs dynasty is legendary.
Amazing take, cheers to another masterpiece ❤
Tim Duncan is the standard bearer for what sacrifice, humbleness and hard work can achieve. My favourite player of all time
Why?
Timmy D wasn't just a great player. He was an entire system.
Explain please
Thank You. My All Time with Tears in My Eyes. TIMMY
goated series
Uploading this perfect Timmy video right before Victor Wembanyama plays his first Spurs games?! *chef’s kiss*
Duncan sacrificed his stats for team success
This is my favorite making the case video. Its really changed my prospective on the way I see tim
Making the case - Clayton Crowley ❤
This series is great. Would you be willing to consider another series dedicated to who the best "sidekick" was for these Goats? Who was their overall best teammate they had during their careers?
Keep up the great work! These videos are addictive 🍻
I’d love to see a “who’s the best player in the league right now” series like this. I feel like there’s a few people who could lay claim not to mention a couple dark horse candidates
The stat that stands out to me is 71% winning percentage over 19 years. 56 wins a year on average, and never missing the playoffs. Against teams with many talented players like the entire Laker run of Kobe and Shaq. Hard to believe.
Underrated
Excellent revision. I'd love to see you do a Charles Barkley vid.
My 16 year old son is a huge basketball fan, and when we went to Disney World, who did we see.......Tim Duncan in the flesh. My son asked him for a quick autograph, and Duncan flatly walked away.
You still have some stuff wrong... Tim Duncan made 15 All NBA teams, not 13. 10 firsts, 3 second, and 2 third.
Tim Duncan LeBron James and Michael Jordan from there decade (90s 00s 10s) are the only players to win multiple championships, fmvps and MVPs in NBA history.
Kareem won multiple finals mvps and MVPs and rings too same with magic Johnson
Can you revise Bill Russell’s and Wilt Chamberlains? Or do a mini doc on their battles?
Great analysis. As a longtime Spurs fan, I always enjoyed watching his greatness.
This is literally the TRUE definition of the MOST underrated MOST under appreciated basketball player in the history of the sport.
15 all NBA defensive teams will never ever be broken. Had Ray Allen missed that shot, he would have 6, again 6 championships!! That along with all the players that were drafted by the organization. Not some weak move by getting trades and creating superteams.
*@trigun442*
The process in which a team is assembled is irrelevant when assesing a player as a player. All that matters when assessing a player as a player is what they do on the court with the team support that they have against the competition that they are against, that's it.
Tim was a great player one of my favorites , i 1st saw him play for wake forrest and he was great. I loved that the Spurs got him, him together with David Robinson was so cool! Another great video Clayton. Showcasing one of the greats Tim Duncan I always thought Tim and Bill Russell had a connection, they seemed a lot alike, they always had great humility and seem like they would be a couple of the most chill people to hang out with😊
The 🐐 is still Jordan, but Duncan's just so incredubly underrated.
Given his fundamentals and temperament, he would have been a franchise leading player for any team and won championships any era.
Just so glad he did it with Pop, and I was never a Spurs fan. Even if he's not the goat, watching him play made me fall in love with the game again. I'm old and watched the game since the early 90s, and feel so sorry for young bball fans in the current era who never got to watch the game when it was more balanced and had more diversity in styles and players.
I agree. I think LeBron will always be #2, but a lot closer than people in my generation will give him credit for. I think the problem is that the discussion began about a decade too early cause ESPN knew how to generate views with shitty hot takes. It's why the level of discourse around sports and online turns into flame wars where people attack each other and delve into ad hominem against someone who is a fan of other players. This series by Clayton allows us to celebrate 8 great players who are near the top of the sport without necessarily shitting on other players. Acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses without shitting on MJ, LBJ, Shaq, etc. Just note the differences and give your opinion, but allow for differing opinions. The way discourse should be IMO, but sadly isn't anymore.
I can’t tell you how much this video means to me, thank you for the amazing work!
As a Spurs fan, this gave me goosebumps
Wow. Exceptional video. Rhetorically excellent and carefully researched. It's almost taboo to imagine anyone except Jordan or LeBron as truly the greatest, but you make it seem unquestionably reasonable.
It is hard to think of a player to build your franchise who is more likely to bring success regardless of circumstance. Duncan would have enabled any coach to be better. It isn't fair to criticize Duncan for having Pop while other ego driven superstars don't get criticized for failing to accept coaching, or relaying on all time great coaches to get them to buy into the team.
Duncan isn't by conventional GOAT definition my choice, but his case is by far my favorite. There isn't another player I'd bet on to generate success across eras, rulesets, and coaching staff/teammate variables.
Clayton,
Thank you so much for what you do. This is some of the best sports content I’ve ever seen. The way you tell these stories is so moving.
Amazing work.
Tim Duncan is a winner on the court and off the court.