Black Powder Fouling and Accuracy - Pietta 1851 in a Ransom Rest
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- Опубліковано 29 січ 2022
- Check out how much fouling affects accuracy. Using the Pietta 1851 in a Ransom Rest to help eliminate shooter errors. Testing first with FFF GOEX and then a non-fouling substitute powder. Results seem to show noticeable improved accuracy when fouling is reduced. We cleaned between each shot in the last string; not practical of course for most shooting, only to see if there was a noticeable difference. I believe this to be a very good discussion on fouling. www.geojohn.org...
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Looks like the fouled barrel makes a whole lot of difference no matter which powder you used.
Wow, that rest is a really good shot :0
I love when this guy does these kind of tests.
It is really amazing how accurate these guns can be. It really defies modern logic. It has a exposed cap on a nipple lose powder in a chamber and a soft lead ball forced on top with a loading lever that probably deformed the ball and it shoots better then almost any modern auto loading handgun. Keep up the good work.
AND, the ball was FAR from perfect to begin with. Unless it bumps up, it doesn't come close to filling the groves. The cast round ball has a place where the spruce was cut off which is loaded at various positions. Powder charge and compression vary.
Working now on a video of shooting a Remington style with no lube or wads VS shooting with lube, think you might find it's interesting. O.R.
Years ago I learned from BPCR long distance match shooters to use lube cookies (paper card, lube pill, paper card). I’d point you to my extensive tests, which prove that when using the lube cookie method you get no additional fouling accumulation after the first shot, but the 1858 Remington forum where I posted these things was taken down and all of my extensive tests, mods, and photographs, hollowpoint bullet tests in percussion revolvers, etc., are now gone. On two occasions I fired over 100 consecutive rounds without cleaning the bore, and the accuracy of the last group was the same as the first. Furthermore one dry patch through the bore, one direction, and it looked clean as a whistle. That’s the benefit of having the lube behind the bullet where it needs to be in order to mix with the powder founding to keep it soft. Felt wads don’t carry enough lube to accomplish this, unless you add more on top of the wad before seating the bullet, and that can expose more of the powder to the lube prior to firing, introducing another variable which is the viability of the full powder charge.
First, my sympathy about loosing some worthy data, for yourself and other shooters. I've never read much on forums, mostly just not aware they existed. I have had the same line of thought as the tests you did. Never shot much BPCR, but read all of Matthews books and some others. Have tried several times to get the lube where it would I thought it would do more good, after the powder. That info of yours that was lost on the forum would have helped, problem would have been that I probably wouldn't have found it.
I guess I'm following the same trail you were on, just years later, and lack your experience, but keep moving forward, sort of like a turtle. About the only contact I get with others like yourself is through these comments, so appreciate yours, and others. Like Josey Wales said, didn't know there were others.
I will be posting some tests that I did with and without lube on chambers. Would appreciate your comments, and hopefully it is heading in the right direction. I realize that on chamber end is not going to do as well, but to me it proves the point.
Oh, I've often wondered if the powder used "in the day" burned differently, possibly different fouling. I have a unopened keg of "orange" that my cousin found in a barn that was built in the 1800's I believe, label is pretty much gone.
I sure agree about the felt wads that so many feel are doing the job. I've examined them when the bounce off the targets, or get stuck in them. ( I suspect some are even catching a ride on the back side of the ball). There can't be much lube getting on the lands or groves, as the contact area is small, and almost all the lube is absorbed in the felt anyway. Better stop because I would like to go "on and on". Thanks so much, and maybe there is some way to make your results, and experience more available. Any ideas?? O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thank you for responding. Well I pretty much said it in the first comment, but I can give some more details. A lube cookie is made by melting black powder lube into a glass baking pan that’s been half filled with water, and then bake the stuff at around 250 or whatever just until the lube melts into a uniform sheet, then let it cool, undisturbed, until the lube is set up and has cooled completely. Somewhere I have the formula for the weight of the lube and the area of the pan, to get the thickness of the lube sheet you want. You want the lube to be just a bit under an eighth inch thick. The idea of floating the lube on water in an oven came from modern glass-making, which floats the glass on molten tin or some such until it completely flattens out. Floating the lube on water gives you perfect flatness of the lube sheet once it freezes up. Buffalo Arms in Ponderay, Idaho also sells a lube extruder die (fits into a standard metal cartridge loading press) for the same purpose, which gives a consistent thickness of lube on the form of an extruded ribbon.
The lube I use is called Gatofeo #1. You can find the recipe on line, or I can dig it up for you. Regular and readily available SPG works about the same, but is slightly harder in consistency.
To make the lube cookies you either make or procure (also at Buffalo Arms) a “hammer punch” (meaning it’s designed to hit it with a hammer to punch out cards or felt, etc.). In this case you want a card diameter of the gun’s chamber diameter, or a couple thousandths under if you’re making paper cartridges, and you use that punch by simply pushing it into the lube by hand. That’s how you get your “lube pills”.
To make the “lube cookie” you find some hard paper card, such as is used to make cereal boxes, beverage can 12-pack cartons, or a myriad of other packages which you’ll have available pretty much always. It’s good to procure a punching board, or one of those plastic, pale white cutting boards sold for kitchen use. Place your card on the cutting board, place the punch’s cutting end on the paper card, and whack it with a small plastic hammer or rawhide mallet. In this way you can make 100s of cards in short order. I store them in small Tupperware containers by size, different sizes for different calibers, or even different guns, and label them.
When loading loose ammunition, it takes more time, because now you’re inserting the powder, then a card, then a lube pill, then another card. If you shoot at home that’s no big deal, but for those of us who have to drive out to find a place to shoot it is much better to have our loads all pre-assembled and ready to go, so you don’t spend much time reloading and fiddling with tiny components like cards and lube pills, in the wind and whatnot. Therefore I use “consumable envelope” paper cartridges, which can be made up in small batches here and there, and by the time you go out for a day of shooting you have more than enough of them ready to go that you never need to load loose ammunition.
Once you get the paper cartridge system figured out and established, I guarantee you’ll never go back. Check out my singular video, which covers the cartridge making process. There are other systems for making paper carts for these revolvers, but the system I use is the simplest and fastest, and makes better, more consistent, easier to use cartridges that stay together until you need them. Just DO NOT leave them in a hot car or in the sun for long on a hot day, or the lube will melt and you’ll have a mess! back in the day they were made dry, so this wasn’t a problem, but of course it meant fouling up the gun after a full cylinder or two.
I also generally use cast, conical, lube groove bullets, but you can make the cartridges in exactly the same way using round ball, or load loose ammunition with RB or conical. The system is the same except for bullet fit with conicals, and we can get into that subject later if you wish. In short, I want a conical that’s right at, or never more than two thousandths of an inch over, chamber diameter. Thus I have a lube sizer for conicals, so it fills the grease grooves and sizes the bullet at the same time. I’ve purchased a number of custom sizing dies from Buffalo Arms for my different percussion revolvers for that reason.
@@omnivore2220 Thanks so much. It will take some time for me to digest this info, and I considerate it as the best I have seen. Not taking away from what others may have done in this area because frankly I just haven't as I said, come across much.
So you have a video on cartridge making the way it sounds. Could you give me something to search for or by. Again, much appreciate the information. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Yes, thank you. To look at my video, just tap the round, colored icon to left at the top of my reply. That takes you to my channel where you’ll see only one video. It shows the basic idea of making these paper cartridges, along with my concept for a belt box that carries 50 of the finished carts while in the field. I now have the 50 round box cores 3D printed and I have several leather outer shells for them which were custom made by a Leathersmith. Any questions you may have can be posted in comments on my channel, and I’ll answer them as I’m able. I developed the system somewhat further after making that video, but then a ruptured appendix, and then some broken ribs and a punctured lung pretty much changed my focus in life for a while and I haven’t made any more vids. For one thing I believe you’ll see me loading lube pills only, not “lube cookies”. The pills will indeed “take a ride” on the flat base of a bullet, and can carry burning powder granules to the target. Not good in dry conditions with dry vegetation around. The cookie on the other hand won’t ride along with the bullet, and I’ve never noticed the burning granules of powder at the target like I’ve seen when using pills only.
I really appreciate your use of a Ransom rest for testing. Most BP revolvers shooters would never do that, and yet it’s the best way to test for inherent accuracy!
Be careful about vinegar. It will remove bluing. I found that out the hard way.
Good video!
Thanks for the heads up on that. I'm probably fortunate that I haven't used it much. Been using it some on my long guns, but they are browned, and maybe it can't do as much to them. Felt I needed a bit more than water on the barrel, but I think it would have worked fine, just needed some moisture down there. Thanks again. O.R.
Wow, excellent video ! I love when you do videos like this. Seems the barrel fouling is a major factor affecting accuracy of these guns. Also love the old timey music. Love your videos Old Ranger ! Keep them coming. Peace and best wishes to you !
Thanks for the encouragement. Music by my late cousin-in-law, hopefully someday I’ll be able to thank him for his recordings. I’m with the theory that if the fouling can be kept relatively soft, the ball has a better chance of taking the rifling and getting the spin for stability. Without, some shots may or may not, and seems like flyers are more likely, and the extra fouling is definitively there when cleaning the barrel. Have a safe summer. O.R.
Thank You very much for Sharing Your work.
Very interesting.
Thank you for sharing ..your information and experience ..another informative and entertaining video
Thank you for the test...very insightful..I did a total of 24 shots and was wondering why it seems like I could not hit the broad side of a barn...can't argue with a dirty barrel
In muzzleloading some fouling can be a positive thing. Even in the cartridge world no two rifle bullet powder combinations will shoot exactly the same. This why many bench rest or precision shooter's handload to find the right combo. My personal favorite competition muzzleloader runs more accurately slightly fouled. When I am out on a day of all out day long shot after shot this rifle does so all day achieves without swabbing between shots. My method of madness to some is an overly wet lubed patched round ball. This works for me because in my hay day I would involve myself in more than one shooting stations so loads would sit long enough to contaminate powder much. Revolvers do afford this luxury however amplifies the importance of lubing each shot keeping fouling soft.
For me this experiment illustrates one more time that blackpowder substitutes do not perform as advertised. Less fouling my butt. Hoards of muzzleloaders have been ruined by false advertising of less corrosive than blackpowder, just to end up as ugly rust buckets in a pawnshop.
Exactly. This was advertised as non-fouling, and also non-corrosive. If it's non corrosive, wouldn't want to use stuff that is. As far as how it compares to the GOEX, it ignites well and seems to have about the same accuracy potential, at least in the larger calibers. Haven't been shooting the soot poles lately, so I need to try it some there. I have a fair stock of the stuff, so it pays for me to play with it, especially now the GOEX is no more, and mostly all of the other Black is GONE. THANKS. O.R.
Good to see someone using a rest. Its important to see how well the gun shoots not the shooter. Could that consistent flyer be a bad chamber.
Thanks Hugh.
I don't think it's the chamber. Couple years ago I was on that trail and it went cold. Seemed like always one to two flyers so I started to index the chambers and couldn't find any correlation to the flyers. With the Ransom there are a couple of things. If the cylinder is loaded out of the gun, then putting the barrel back on could be an issue. Also, if loading on the Ransom, putting pressure on the grip adapter when using the loading lever could do something. Ransom says to fire several shots to get the frame seated into the grip adapter. That works a whole lot easier with a cartridge gun. Would be nice of course if the $300 gun could shoot one hole groups at 20 yds, but how much can we expect? I really feel they do excellent, and planning on doing more in the Ransom this summer.
I agree, are we testing the gun, or the shooter? If it's the gun, we might not want to shoot only one cylinder, with one hand, in a thirty mph gusty wind and draw too many conclusions. O.R.
I’d love to see a repeat of this test but use lubed felt wads to see if there’s any improvement over the later cylinders full.
Hi Jeff. That's something I should do. For me, things just seem to get worse with more shooting, but most has been of the bench, and of course can't be 100% sure that it's not me. I have the Ransom and now a grip adapter. I also have snow and below zero temps. I want to run a test of lube VS wads in the Ransom. So many variables to test, and a shortage of caps. Oh well, as Captain Red Legs said, "Lots of work to do in Texas". Thanks. O.R.
Kind Thanks for these great tests! It answers some questions I’ve had. Many Blessings Old Ranger! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Thanks Dave, good to hear that you found the information helpful. O.R.
wish black mz was still made
Other than that it doesn't quite live up to the CLEAN burning and NON-CORROSIVE claims (which were more to gain attention I think), I have lots of respect for it as a substitute; sure be useful right now. O.R.
The 36 caliber revolvers tend to lose accuracy faster than the 44 caliber revolvers because the fouling thickness tends to be uniform regardless of caliber. Therefore, given a .375 barrel and .002 of powder fouling reduces the bore diameter to .373 or less and the fouling rides against the front and bearing surface of the ball giving inconsistent travel whereas the .452 barrel with .002 layer of fouling although causing similar inconsistencies is a smaller percent of the bore diameter. This is why black powder arms designed for situations where the weapon will be fired multiple times have larger bores.
Wow. That's insight that I probably would not ever have come across without this comment opportunity and UA-cam. All I know (I think) is that I've always had problems with the 36. Would be shooting a decent group, and then that ominous flyer (or two). Figured in the 80's that it was that they were not taking the rifling. Actually make a 12 foot water trough to possibly see slipping on the recovered ball. Anyway, recently I've figured that maybe the 1-30 was just too slow for the smaller caliber. The 58 Navy seems to have trashed that idea. When shooting at matches at Friendship, I would swab the barrel of my 1861 2nd Gen Colt, and that seemed to help. Also, using more cylinder end lube seems to have done better recently. This all seems to align with what you have said, and I sure appreciate the comment. O.R.
@ 1:15 damn brother! You are like the b.p. mad scientist!
So with the successful reception of the first test mold, the order for a second mold of .36 caliber in target weights of 2@ 130, 136, and a 150 gr. Leaving a 110, 120, and 160 gr try in the future. That being said next months mold will be a .44 one targeted for Remington, smaller colts. Month after ruger/larger colts.
Sounds interesting (and expensive). Stay on target. O.R.
I really enjoy your work here, very informative. This suggestion is completely impractical but coming from the BPCR portion of the hobby I wonder what blow tubing would do to these groups? Thanks again for all the details around your work.
Yes, Black powder cartridge shooters have been doing that for who knows how long. Amazing sometimes what a person doesn't think of. While we're on that thought, maybe just squirting some solvent into the muzzle end?? BPCR shooters probably can't with their long barrels, or they probably would. Might be useful for paper punchers (could be they are already up on this). O.R.
Be interesting to measure the chambers and barrel groove diameter to see if they’re compatible. Also, could maybe try a .380” diameter ball depending on what the chambers are sizing them down to. Thanks for another interesting video 👏
Chambers are about .367, bore .360, and I would guess another .005 for the groves. I have a cylinder that reamed chambers to .376 and used a .380 cast round ball. No miracles. Appears these things don't follow rules of smokeless guns. But, I'm no expert, just my findings. Thanks for the suggestion which is a logical thing to try. O.R.
That first group was fantastic, when I saw that I thought you were onto something, then things just went downhill, had you been shooting hand held you could easily get despondent and go to pieces over the later results, but the Ransom Rest should eliminate the human factor, I was wondering what the chamber bore groove diameter was on this, but I see you have already been asked that question, still waiting to get above freezing here before I do any more experimenting. Many thanks for posting this ! Chris B.
Thanks Chris as always. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I followed your link to the fouling video, there is some interesting information buried in there, but I lost interest when he insisted that a cap & ball revolver should be capped up before reloading, a really unsafe practice, I think also any lube under the projectile could give very erratic results due to the impossibility of getting the same compression without hydraulically forcing lube into the powder, much better ,if you must do it that way, to have a hollow base bullet filled with lube, loaded over a milk carton wad. Mind you, they do act like tracer bullets! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 Again, great insight Chris. You need to write a book or something. I also read that far, and then some other project took over. I have tried something like that because I also figured that was where the lube is needed (as the BPCR shooters do), but maybe I wasn't fussy enough abut the seal to the powder because strange stuff started happening.
I got a good chuckle out of the tracer bullet. I remember thinking that my wife was burning the garbage when I realized that it was the towel I was shooting over. Good think I caught that before I broke for lunch, or it could have burned down the house. No,
wait, actually would have got to my powder stashed in the shed first. 🤧O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I made a 45 bullet mould with a hollow base to prove this theory about lube not getting into the bore, with a hollow base it does stay in the chamber under firing, but it does give the mentioned tracer effect, which does cause some raised eyebrows at the club range, my aim when shooting with the Sharps is to see a ring of lube at the muzzle, but I have not achieved that with a pistol, one problem with using a hollow base is that if the "skirt" is too thin, it opens up on leaving the muzzle, causing all sort of unbalance in the projectile, the problem is there are just so many people heading down different routes, few of which are willing to accept other "proven" experiments, so we have to try them all to satisfy ourselves, and of course it is good fun trying them all, I have yet to try the Dick Darstardly big lube in a C&B revolver, that should carry enough lube without being blasted off the unfired bullets. Stay safe! Chris B.
OR: Giving this lube problem some more thought, have you tried the moulds produced by Dick Darstardly Big Lube, they carry a huge amount of lube which cannot contaminate the powder, or get blown away by blast, and he sells a 90grn 38 cal mould. I have some of his 45 cal moulds and they work very well in the Colt 45 cartridge. Chris B.
Ive watched a bunch of these video crazy how you can see the ball flying in a frame or 2
It’s interesting. My brother and I used to do quite a bit of point shooting with 38’s. When the sun angle was right, could watch them. I can remember seeing what appeared to be a slight curve downward. That was a long time ago. Thanks for the observation. O.R.
What lubricant was used if any? Cylinder lube is important.
I use a mix of crisco-beeswax. This was used on both the FFF and BlackMZ. on end of chambers. I used no lube on the BlMZ when cleaning and firing one at a time, since I was cleaning, and there was no concern about chain fire. Thanks. O.R.
Luckily, I tend to only shoot around three cylinders per range visit anyway. I hear felt wads help, but haven’t really noticed a difference at 10 yards.
Check out the link in the description if you get the chance. Lots of good info there, and helps to explain things. In the day, probably most shots started from a clean barrel (maybe) and there probably wasn't continued shooting as we might do now. If the first few shots were true, maybe that was all that was needed.
Really hard to tell sometimes, especially with offhand shooting what is going on. Is it the sights, shooter, gun, load, or whatever. I used to golf some. That slice I had wasn't really noticed till it got out there 100 yards or so, then it just went exponential, almost perpendicular to the fairway. O.R.
Fouled barrel or not I can't help but think that there is something going on with the gun. In general my cap and balls shoot better than that. I know that Piettas are made without a barrel crown - perhaps there is a tiny burr on the end of the barrel? Recrowning may work wonders for the gun - a drill, a crown nut (also known as a cap nut - big ones are sold as lug nuts), and some valve lap compound is all it takes.
That was Outstanding information, thank you so much.
I've always wanted to try a ransom rest. So cool.
Thanks James. I wanted one back in the 80's when I was trying to figure why I was getting flyers. Wasn't sure if it was the sighting, or maybe I just pulled the shot. Just too pricey, so I tried to build something, but you can figure how that went down. Got this one a few years back, and now I know that it probably wasn't my sighting or throwing the shot. The SAA grip adapter works with the 51's, but they make nothing I am aware of for the Remington's. Blank ones are available, maybe I'll spring for one. O.R.
I really dont worry about accuracy all that much. If I can hit center mass at ten yard Im good.
Try gun greese in the chambers and barrel. I can get through 5-6 cylinder.
Lard works best. Plain lard in the winter. Lard and beeswax in the summer.
Thanks TimesThree. Glad you're pointing out that it's not all about accuracy. A more practical side is, as you say, keeping the gun shooting and not jamming. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Right! Love the vids. It shows that a design from defore the civil war is still a good design.
A little known trick that I have Used for years. Cut 44 caliber styrofoam pills out of meat trays. Thick meat trays use one, thinner trays use 2. The styrofoam pills will compress to the thickness of paper but keep the hot gasses sealed away from the lead conical bullets base. I use a Luber sizer To lubricate the bullets.
Very interesting, thanks. Using what diameter sizer, and for what weapon(s) of choice? O.R.
Even with the ransom rest you can't entirely get the human element out.
High or low shots can be caused by varying the pressure on the loading ram.
It sometimes gets frustrating trying to chase down the cause of that flyer. Usually it's me.
I load the cylinder out of the gun most times. In the Ransom rest, this of course involves barrel removal, and possibly puts stress on the Ransom that could make a difference. As for shots going astray because of loading pressure, I built a loader that has a pressure gauge on it to get them all equal compression. Made little to no difference that I could tell, and went back k to just doing it by feel. The trick might be to get the Ransom to recoil the same each shot. In the end, can we expect a $350 gun to make one hole like a Wilson or other custom gun ?? Would be nice, but probably not. O.R.
Can you measure the lift recoil difference with different velocity deviation? Or is that too minute?
Thanks. That’s a interesting idea to measure barrel height (displacement) and see if there’s a correlation to out of group shots. Also I should use a chronograph. Hopefully I can remember that next time I get out the Ransom. O.R.
I'm willing to bet that if you mic those chambers that you'll find one chamber mouth is likely a tad larger than the others. This is a frequent cause of the "one flyer per cylinderful" syndrome.
Sounds like something I should check. Thanks. O.R
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Interesting!
That's what I love about black powder....I can always blame a fouled barrel for my crappy marksmanship.😂👍
Here's something else to consider. If your wife leaves your shirts (or whatever) in the dryer too long, critical areas contract too much and that causes poor circulation. The gun starts to wobble, and I think it can affect vision also. O.R.
@@oldranger3044I think you're right! That's the excuse I can use when shooting smokeless.👍😂
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Hello OR