(FAIL) Apple Cider Vinegar Emergency Winter Feed! Sugar Bricks.
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2022
- Kent Williams winter recipe as sugar bricks.
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This recipe should just be used to air dry. I baked these for 50% longer than normal sugar bricks. The thin pan was still no good and fell apart after 3 hours in the oven and sitting 24 hours in a dry environment. Perhaps if we cooked them for 6+ hours they would have gotten hard like a sugar brick should be. After a week we still had some moisture on the mix we packed onto the colonies. (like the horizontal) The pack method is the only way I would use Kent's recipe (which is what he recommends.) Final thoughts at 9:27 in video..... Messy, time consuming (as a brick), and expensive. -------------- Link to plain sugar bricks: ua-cam.com/video/kwt8uzCUSwU/v-deo.html
Hi Kamon
When you warm the brick you probably start to invert the sugar into glucose and fructose due to the acid condition from the citric acid and acetic acid.
Thank you for a lot of good videos.
// Henrik Björk
"sugar broke" That title is catchy. It's not a brick... it's a broke.
I agree with Henrik, the gummy sugar on top was inverted.
I used kent's recipe but didn't have any citric acid or HBH and mine turned out okay ish (but hard). It looked like you were short of sugar and it was kind of a wet mix. You can always dissolve your blocks (LOL) and dilute it for feeding 1 to t later.
Dry sugar is my method. No prep to speak of. Just paper towels and sugar.
Yup. A little morning dew to kickstart the whole thing off!
So true!!! We all keep our bees a little different, but if they are alive in the spring than we did something right.
Well the old saying about a blind hog and an acorn comes to mind! Haha!
@@kamonreynolds hehehehe…… wait a minute what are you trying to say??? 🤔🤔😆😂😂😂
I use his the recipe with Honey B Healthy, but I make it on paper plates and use the dehydrate function on my oven at 150 for a few hours then turn it off and let them sit inside overnight and then move them to the garage. They're not as hard as just sugar and water bricks but I just put a feeder shim on top of the hive and set the paper plate over the cluster. I've had great luck so far. I've also used it without putting it in the oven. Just put a scoop right out of the bucket onto a paper plate above the cluster and they do really well with that too.
I think that all your beekeeping brethren would love to see the footage of you messing up the stove!!! 😂😂😂 another great video Kamon!!! Keep ‘em coming!!!
I've used this recipe for many years and it works well for me.
6 fluid ozs water
1 kilo sugar
pinch of salt
Put the water in a saucepan and some of the sugar, when dissolved add the rest of the sugar and the salt. Stir until it boils then simmer for five minutes. Stir until it becomes cloudy then poor into transparent pyrex dishes.
Like you say, feeding an adequate amount of sugar syrup in the autumn is better beekeeping.
I plan to try this without cooking it. Just going to spread it thin on some wax paper across the top bars
I think it will work great that way
I like the concept of other sugar bricks, but I will stick wit plain sugar and water. They set up great. We keep 100 or so on hand at all times. Thanks for sharing, I had high hopes for the soft sugar patty, but appears to be too messy.
I made a half batch and let mine air dry took it a few days but done well. Bees love it. I left the HBH out as i did not have any.
Inverted Sugar brick meaning "heavy hygroscopic hard to crystalise fructose syrup" in brickform. Sounds like you got the best of two very different worlds.
Inverted is said to be less work for the bees, plus less spoily than sugarwater but be carefull of Hydroxymethylfurfural-thingy. Thats why i buy the finished Syrup-product.
try this - 5Kg sugar, 1 teaspoon citric acid, 250 ml clear apple cider vinegar, 6 drops lemongrass oil. Pack into trays and bake at 40 C for 1 hour. In the UK, the bees love it. It sets like a brick !!
I LOVE using sugar bricks that I learned from one of your videos. Bees take it down easily and is easy to work with in hard form. If it's not a broke brick, don't fix it!
Thanks Bryan I like to keep it cheap and simple!
I live in Upper Michigan and I make what we call a candy board I use 5lbs sugar 16oz water put it in a pot bring it to a boil heat it to 243 degrees I let it cool to around 200 then pour it on the board which has a upper entrance hole and has insulation for the top with the candy underneath Mannlake sells them wintering inner cover My bees have only gotten out once since November has been very cold, the past four days has been 24 below every morning warming up tp 10 above I also leave close to 100lbs of honey on the hives I am just a hobby bee keeper with 5 hives I enjoy your videos and learn from them . Thanks for sharing these videos with us and good luck to you this season.
I really wanted to see the mess in Laurel’s oven! 😂
Seems like a lot of vinegar. Usually I only use about 1 or 2 tablespoons for that amount. Probably too much acid in it.
i think the best sugar brick is a sheet of news paper and a bag of sugar sucks up moisture out of the hive eventully turns into a rock or a brick NO ADDITIVES they don't have no trouble finding it and they eat it just fine
yOU DON'T want your bees to eat ink it's unhealthy for them & you don't want ink in your honey
yOU DON'T want your bees to eat ink it's unhealthy for them & you don't want ink in your honey
After the 2 hour bake. Leave in the over night. With the light on.
Put the ACV through a filter if your worried about the mother so they still get the benefits
We use a similar recipe but mix it in smaller portions, it cooks hard and bees love it.
10 lb sugar
1/4 cup apple cider vinegar
1/4-1/2 cup water
We put parchment paper on a cookie sheet so sugar bricks are thin. Put oven on lowest setting (ours is 170) for an hour or so. Turn oven off and leave in in until cool.
do nearly the same here, works well
We were told to put this mixture on the hive without cooking. I went to an expo with Kent there in KY and they didn't talk about cooking this!
I don’t recall him saying to cook it at the hive alive conference
If I were to do this again I think I would take it straight to the hive with baking. Just throw it on with a trowel
@@alhambraorchardapiary4882 that is pretty much what I did. The bees have been consuming it!
Right, Kent does not cook it when he uses it but there has been circulating talk of cooking them. Also, if we continue to call them sugar bricks then many will think they can cook them with good results. I definitely think the only way to use these correctly is to pack them on the colonies
@@kamonreynolds the paper I have that they passed out from Kent doesn't call it a sugar brick, I'm not sure where that may have been added?
Kamon, it could be that the humidity was high that day & it was too wet to work out for you. I know in Southern Illinois I have to watch the humidity when I am making anything with a liquid. If the humidity is high I cut back on the liquid. Not sure but just an idea! Thanks for all the great videos. I am an old-time Beekeeper but like to see new ideas, I had my first hive back in the 80s. Thanks again.
Gidday Kamon from New Zealand.
We only use Hive Alive now and have stopped using any other supplements because of the stronger colonies coming out of winter and since switching to Hive Alive over two years ago we see much fewer Varroa Mites than we used to.
We use the Hive Alive in our sugar syrup when required, 1:1 for spring buildup and in early autumn to stimulate the Queen to make winter bees. Then we switch to 2:1 later in autumn and early winter to ensure they have plenty of winter stores. We also use the Hive Alive in Fondant but the Hive Alive cannot be added until the fondant mixture has cooled to 50°F or you will kill all the goodness in the Hive Alive. And yes the fondant is just an insurance policy because some colonies go through their winter stores faster than others.
I believe Hive Alive has an upper temperature limit of 122*F. It's likely the benefits were baked out. It looks like it turned more into a Fondant consistency. Thanks for sharing!
I use this recipe. You can't heat it over 140 deg F, or it gets sticky. However, the bees will eat the sticky feed before a brick. I make the recipe, pack it in cookie sheets lined with parchment paper score it with a knife and let it dry for a day to three. The bees love this stuff.
I think Hive Alive is a better option than HBH this time of year. I've had a lot of beekeepers ask me how to treat Nosema while it's still cold and I recommend Hive Alive in a sugar cake. Honey Bee Healthy (HBH) only simulates the bees, it does nothing for Nosema.
I don't even want to imagine what your house smelled like. lol I'd be sleeping in the barn until the smell was gone. lol
Jason do you have an idea of how much Hive Alive you would use say per cup or quart of water? I only have three hives but need to get hive alive in them as the fondant is not available.
@@roseroberson5010 The instructions say "All syrup fed to be activated at a concentration of 2 tsp of HiveAlive to every gallon of syrup". If you divide that by 4 it would be 1/2 tsp HiveAlive to a quart of syrup. I guess I got lucky when I bough my case of fondant patties. Best of luck!!
Kamon, all I’ve got to say about this video is, that’s a FINE looking shirt that you’re wearing when you were doing the mixing! It definitely goes with the hat although it’s from MS. Roll Tide!
We've experimented with several methods and like mountain camp sugar for it's simplicity and because it helps pull moisture into it reducing condensation.
Glad you tried it before I got around to it.
The ones I make takes ages to dry out like 2/3 days. We use apple cider vinegar and citric acid and à measured amount of water but it takes a long time to dry. I put them in to small Tupperware boxes and leave them in the kitchen with the underfloor heating. . I believe your drying them too quick. But as you did have succès with just water, there is your answer I reckon!! Thanks for sharing what wasn’t the best mix for you!
Thanks Richard! I think baking with the Vinegar and citric acid was the issue. Packing them on or letting them dry on their own is the best way to go. Live and learn!
Haha!! I had a similar experience with some leftover last year. I couldn’t get it out of my wife’s pan! I love it as the pack method and have used it with good success the past two years but it’s not good to bake!! Inside the Hive TV talked a little bit about the PH of bee food and the possibility of apple cider vinegar helping with the health of honey bees.
Here is the link for that video.
ua-cam.com/video/by5Dui2sW-A/v-deo.html
Absolutely right about there being 400 ways to do one thing. Although I use apple cider vinegar to attract yellowjackets and repel bees(it mimicks the apple orchard rotting fruit smell) in traps for the yellowjackets, im trying to figure out why the Italian dressing...
I use the mixture recipe given at the conference, its not meant to be cooked. I put it on top of newspaper as a real thick slurry paste type mixture. Its not a sugar brick type mixture. I have had good luck with it. I think of it as a modified mountain camp emergency feed.
Exactly, this is not a sugar brick but a modified mountain camp method
@@kamonreynolds I tried making bricks last year with it and it looked exactly the same as yours.
Great video sir.
I have used this for several years and I do not bake it. My bees have done very well with it.
I won't be baking them in the future for sure!
I use the apple cider recipe, but don't cook. I place in the shallow cookie pan like you had on the left and make indentations to allow me to break it up later. I pack it in and let it air dry for a couple of days no problems. Also. I put wax paper in the pan first to allow for easy removal.
My method is 10 lbs of sugar to 1 cup of ACV. No more no less. I bake on 170 for several hours
I'll Stick to water and sugar and only add enough water to get the sugar to the consistency of damp sand that holds shape when squeezed. Then pack/compress tightly into 1 inch aluminum pans (from dollar store), score into smaller blocks and let air dry... you will have some very nice solid bricks. I'm interested to see what your bees do with that goop!
1) You don't need a large amount of acid to "invert" the sugar. The acid acts as a catalyst, not a constituent. Vinegar is enough; ditch the citric acid.
2) "Inverting" sugar is a process to break a complex sugar (multiple molecules) into simpler sugars (single molecules - glucose and fructose). It is not a critical part of a sugar brick. Bees can digest sucrose just fine.
3) Baking the brick may lead to the formation of HNFs which is poisonous to bees. I use a germination pad to WARM the brick and dry it out in 1 or 2 days, depending on the humidity.
4) Jeff Willard posted a "Super Honey Bee Healthy" recipe that I like. I use 1 tsp of that with 2 tbs of water, 2 tbs of clear ACV and 4 cups sugar. I get hard bricks and happy bees.
5) Kaymon, you didn't make a sugar brick, you made a wet candy board. The sugar brick needs to be grains of sugar stuck together, not melted together.
Thank you for sharing and saving me from wasting my money and time. I'll just stick with a wet pack sugar mix.
The wet pack is for sure the way to go with this recipe
There is no chance that I would argue with a beekeeping legend like Kent Williams. It just seems too much Apple cider vinegar and even more, combined it with citric acid. We use ACV on our sugar syrup to bring down the PH level to the same level on natural nectar in the range of 3.9 - 4.5PH, and it depends on the type of water that you use as well; for 2 gallons of rain water 5ml of ACV does the trick but for faucet water I had to do 10ml. You can also use citric acid to bring down the PH, and it is also used as a preservative, but combining both and in that much of a quantity just makes me nervous on the acidity of the brick.
Like everyone, we experiment with our own recipe, but like Kaymon says, everyone has their own way to do it, and this is one of the topics that generate discussion, as long as its doesn't kill your bees, then it works.
As far as I know kent doesn't suggest it be cooked. But I don't know anything about PH etc and all of that does sound very interesting.
@Sage and Stone Homestead, Ken's recipe does call for baking the sugar brick. But baking is another part of the conversation as polemic as the ACV, we know HMF to be toxic to bees, and that HMF begings to form on temperatures above 113F; most baked recipes call for 200F for one hour, and let it cool inside the oven another hour or two. And all beekeepers will swear for that recipe; the toxicity may not be enough to annihilate a colony, but you are indeed introducing HFM in their diet.
One cup vinegar MAX! for a 25# bucket.
The bricks are kind of thick and need to dry out longer. I leave mine in a warmed up oven turned off overnight. Flip out onto cookie sheet to dry the bottom, put back into warmed up off oven for 2nd night. But I just use sugar and water for bricks too
In my part of world,we use powder shugar mixsed with inverted shugar sirup.
👍
I just packed some of this on top of a few colonies yesterday, hope they enjoy it. I didn't cook mine just scooped on top of parchment paper.
This sounds simple. If you want the bacteria from the ACV in the final product, I would avoid the heat.
Hey Doug, That is the way Kent uses them and in my opinion that is the only way these should be used. Still seem a little damp to be putting on colonies in the north though
@@kamonreynolds we have similar weather to you, I'm in Southern Illinois right close to Kent's bee farm.
@@kamonreynolds i made a batch a couple weeks ago and let them sit out in the man cave on parchment paper and they got as hatd as a brick.
Same here. Air dried the blocks. I did a short video on how to score the sugar so you get uniform blocks. Easier to store and handle.
Heating acid and fumigating the whole house! Now you know how bees feels when we OAV their hives! 🥵😂
Thanks for sharing, Kamon. Maybe 1/2 as much vinegar? If we're attracting them to the sugar bricks, have you had an issue of robbing? I have issues of robbing when I just use mountain camp or bricks of only sugar. I lost 2 colonies on warm days I thought was just poop flights.
Less vinegar would be better for sure.
@Kaymon you might want to try boiling it with the vinegar to a hard rock candy temperature. Then pour it into a mold
I'm super curious how the Hive Alive liquid will work, I have some ordered to add to my syrup this year. Thanks for sharing Kamon, I'm sure your house had a smell a tad bit. LOL. . Have a great day Kamon.
We will see how it works as well. I think it will be ok not expecting anything earth shattering though.
Any time you dehydrate anything in oven it is better to leave a crack in the door to allow moisture to escape as it comes out of brick. I’m betting that is the problem
I’ve used Kent’s recipe he has NEVER said put in oven ! It’s a good recipe put it on paper on top of the brood box and forget it !!!
i think hive alive isnt supposed to be overheated
Uh oh. Mine sat up very firm but I only use a small amount of liquid. Ie ac vinegar, water , lemongrass oil
I did exactly the same thing but my oven was 170 degrees. It did exactly the same thing. I only did that with the leftovers. The bulk of it I filled 1/2 inch feeder shim on my migratory cover and let it air dry. It hardened up and made a brick. THE OVEN WAS THE MISTAKE. Just let it air dry.
Thanks for the Feedback! I had several people at the conference asked me about Kent Williams Recipe and how well it worked as a sugar brick well now we know! Packing it on is the only way to go!
@@kamonreynolds I had enough to fill the 1/2 inch shim built into my migratory covers (patterned after Ian). Left the foamy off so the whole top is covered with food. Overkill I think, but I just wanted to try it.
I would be worried about HMF's. Hydrodxymetylfurfural?
I was a baker for a few years , you used way to much liquid , we put 1/4 cup of water in 10 lbs of sugar and cooked.
It is alot of liquid but it isn't my recipe. I typically use half a cup for 10 lbs of sugar
This is dave , not Barbara , From someone that is cheap , I like just to use water and sugar , In the spring whatever you have you can just melt it back down and feed syrup .
I like it that way too
There is filtered clear apple cider vinegar on the market. More easily found than the Bragg's brand. The "Mother Of Vinegar" is a bacterial item that create vinegar from apple cider. It's a living organism.
yes better to get the filtered kind for bee guts!
I had a total mess when adding additives to traditional “plain” sugar bricks. It dried next to the wood stove for over 24 hours. When I tried to put them on a candy board, they crumbled apart, fell on bees and started an angry frenzy. Way too disruptive for winter clusters, and I had to get out smoke (yikes, in winter!) to get them back in the box. In addition, may be coincidence, but several hives got super poopy after I put the additive versions on, as we have had long cold spells here and they cannot fly. And I mean poo everywhere inside the boxes, including up in the candy board. I am going back to plain Jane emergency food. It is meant for emergency only anyway to prevent starvation. I will get into fancy feeding when the bees are gearing up for flow and can fly.
Yep. Some food gives them the diarrhea if it's mixed wrong.
@@beefriendlychannel7965 thank you for the feedback. I am aware of the mixing requirements, I did not exceed temperatures and followed the recipe provided by the bee club to the letter. I’ve not had an issue with vinegar additive prior (I use white), but I have seen diarrhea previously in Spring with Honey B Healthy during a late cold spell. I have no scientific evidence, but it was significant enough for me to go back to what has worked prior without issues.
@@W3BKY_73 I've noticed when something like that happens sometimes they come back stronger than they were. But they share with the queen. That's the red flag situation.
Edit: your bees are assured different than mine. I can't give advice on your bees or which brands of products work in your climate zone. Too many variables. pH is also a factor in pre-made feeds. Too much protein, not enough...
Ugh.
They sell aluminum trays you can put in the bottom of the oven
400 & 1 ways to do something 😄😂
Hi Kamon, I use the same recipe but I don’t bake it. Is there something in the baking process I’m missing? I just stack them down by the wood stove and they harden up pretty well. The bees still seem to eat it.
I really think the citric acid is the culprit here. It will break sucrose down into fructose and glucose which can make the brick less crystalline. The heating probably sped up the process making it a gummy mess of monosaccharides. As others have said it probably will work fine without heating.
Agreed. Both the citric acid and the acetic acid from the vinegar played a role in the fructose glucose inversion. This is actually desirable and a more digestible food for the bees. The result here is more of a fondant than a sugar brick.
We use his recipe too! We used pro-health instead of honey bee healthy.
Hey, great video! I know it has been two years, but I am so interested in knowing how did your hive like the "failed" sugar brick recipe. Do you remember? Do you suggest any changes in the recipe? Thank you
Looks messy, I am curious though, have you tried comparing the plain sugar brick against the apple cider vinegar ones? Just to see if theres a noticeable impact.
I haven't yet but I don't think it will be all that beneficial having the vinegar in their. Its expensive and the bees have always done great on plain sugar bricks.
Used ACV one year. Bees had the worst dysentery ever.
Essential oils shouldn't be cooking.
Good 1 drop per liter in sugar water, I wouldn't cook them.
Lemon grass will probably cause robbing. Tea tree, thymus, eucaliptus and some other ones are good.
I use a little viniger and a bit of sea salt as well, in liquid sugar.
I have a neighbour who uses fresh plants instead of oils.
Cool video Kamon, I use your video method myself and works great for me the past couple of years...... BTW are you in your sock feet mixing that concoction, where's your PPE steel toe shoes....
I have a question can you feed your bees to much 2to1 sugar water. I have been feeding mine all winter because a fellow took all their honey and they were not able to recover their stores before winter. I only feed the bees when they are flying. I live in Oklahoma and it has been in the high 60s I keep sugar bricks on the hive and have been open air feeding
Just wondering why Apple cider vinegar? I've seen and used recipes for a concoction for getting rid of yellow jackets and hornets that uses apple cider vinegar to deter honey bees from getting in the yellow jacket/hornet trap.
Had the same disappointment.
Is there a no cook recipe?
Just mix it up and dump it on. Seems a little expensive and a bit wet for my taste
@@kamonreynolds ok cool:) thanks for the information kam:) were you able to dial in your bricks sir?👍🏻
I have come to the conclusion that these don't end up making great bricks.
@@kamonreynolds we can always try again brother🤷🏻♂️spilt 🥛 milk :)
Great video. I have never noticed the apple cider vinegar before. Do you use it in your sugar water for summer feeding? Like 1 to 1 sugar water but add apple cider vinegar? If so what is the ratio you use? I have see a couple videos of bee keeping using apple cider vinegar.
Hi Mr Dparry09, I don't use vinegar in beekeeping really. I just don't like the added expense and I don't think it is necessary! However, other beekeepers feel differently about that and that is ok. Kent Williams is a friend of mine and loves using vinegar so i shared his recipe here but personally my sugar bricks have water & sugar and that is it :-)
KAMON , WHAT IS YOUR LATEST RECIPE USING ULTRA BEE AND PRO SWEET? 2/9/2022 THANKS JIM
Video coming soon!
KAMON, MY MISTAKE ,WHAT IS YOUR LATEST RECIPE FOR POLLEN SUBSTITUE PATTIES USING ULTRA -BEE AND PRO SWEET LIQUID THANKS AGIN ........JIM
🇹🇷👍👍
I know this is a year later. However I personally believe there was too much Cider vinegar in this recipe. There is a lot of talk about Cider vinegar in health columns for years.the benefits of cider vinegar is it changes the PH level. the more alkaline the less chances of infections and viruses. most infections love high acid ph levels. I would experiment with lowering the amount of Cider vinegar by more than half. This also will help in less moisture of the brick.
Wayyyyyy too much ACV!
Every time whenever I saw your videos for some reason your face always look familiar to me know , now so I know you look like Alan from Two and a Half men.
Where did you get the cheap hat? Lol
Corn syrup ?
The vinegar will distill the sugars than dry not mixed
🤣👍🖐
In metric For the world please
Too thick
It is how thick we make normal sugar bricks. Water and sugar dries out in an oven in 1 hour. These were left for three