Unrealistic? Extreme Close Quarters Concepts Review | ECQC with Craig Douglas of Shivworks
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- Опубліковано 21 гру 2021
- This video was sponsored by the United States Concealed Carry Association. Check out the USCCA for self defense training, knowledge and legal protection at www.usccapartners.com/hard2hurt
If you would like more information on Craig Douglas, Shivworks or to sign up for a course go to shivworks.com/
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Check out the USCCA for self defense training, knowledge and legal protection at www.usccapartners.com/hard2hurt
some awesome tings to try out, youtube videos ===>
"Retractable Wolverine Claws" from abonude's channel
"Batman's Wolverine Claws - MAN AT ARMS: REFORGED"
This "JPX: The 400 Mile Per Hour Pepper Spray"
I haven’t been to one of his course, but have always liked his material. I did Kelly McCann’s Sudden Violence course a couple of years ago and felt the same as you described here, just better for the experience.
Law Shield ~
insurance is a fear-based scam
should be eradicated, stop participating, perpetuating
Thing that I most like about Icy Mike? The man let's me learn from his mistake by thoroughly explaining what the issue was and how to not repeat it. "Here's my experience. Take it. Please." Yes....yes I will. Thank you. Big like for Icy Mike. Make a thanks button. We need it.
Thank YOU sir. I think it's important to share my shortcomings which is good because i have plenty!
That's what real men do.
@@hard2hurt Don't we all ! We can never stop learning & we all have short comings! I love your channel and you know how to teach & still learn as well so kudo's to you Mike! I'm a Kempo Black belt but have had 3 joints replaced over the last two years and am just starting to train again at 60 years old so I have to go super light compared to the old days so I get what you mean by how you say you train however its way more than myself and a lot of other people are doing that's form sure!
100% agree!
Said way better than I could've managed and I agree 💯% 🖤
I was in the course with you, I'm actually one of the guys in your intro. The way the evolutions were run was to give everyone reps under stress, it was that simple. Interacting with you at the course I personally was under the impression that you know your stuff and I would take training from you. It's stressful, and honestly going from 0 to 100 and then back to 0 doesn't film well. If I remember correctly you did well and everyone learned something they needed to improve. This is training you have to take to fully appreciate.
No need to feel frustrated Mike, realize most people will never get into a situation like this, and it’s strange and stressful regardless of how much training you have. I think you did well. And all you can do is improve OSU!
Yeah. I normally hold myself to a pretty high standard though and I'm also responsible for training people who are likely to encounter these scenarios
@@hard2hurt get ‘em next time coach, hit them bare knuckle in the head a few times 100% power. That’ll teach em!
Douglas kind of reminds me of Richard Dimitry. Straight to the point, often unfair and realistic situations, no fancy bullshit that wouldn't work in an adrenaline dump
@@hard2hurt Yeah, but you know Craig is zeroed in on what YOU need to learn. He's purposely putting you in the situation that you need to experience for greatest growth. If he just ran you through a canned scenario where you can excel, then gave you a high five, he wouldn't be doing his job.
@@Jamoni1 he definitely always puts me in real tough spots
Going to his course in VA 4/22. As an instructor myself props to you for very publicly putting out your training footage. I think I’ll get my ass handed to me but that’s what I am signing up for.
Yeah you're gonna get smoked lol
@@hard2hurt what are your recommendations for prep work?
Every training I've ever taken, day one I got my ass handed to me! If you don't, go somewhere that can.
Being in New situations with new people, is amazing. It keeps you sharp, exposes weakness in your system, and allows you to be a student rather then a teacher, which of course makes you a better teacher.
I give all respect due to anyone willing to keep training and put themselves back at the bottom. Being the best all the time takes you out of the actual category of being skilled, your skill set tends to stale and become weaker. An occasional opportunity to keep learning and putting your ass in a bad spot makes you get back to the place you need to be to be a true self defense teacher. All respect to all parties.
I’m going to do something that is unheard of in the UA-cam world, and admit that I’d probably die in one of these scenarios. I’m not a fighter, and even though I’ve taken several combat pistol courses, grappling with a gun is a different animal altogether. I mostly watch this channel because Icy Mike and his crew are entertaining, and I’d watch even if it wasn’t martial arts related content on the channel.
stop being realistic and humble or you will lose your commenting license
Honestly, your break down showed you a weakness in your tunnel vision. The way you responded, even as a trained combatant, is realistic. It's easy to say oh you should've done this, you should've done that but plans only last up until you engage in a situation or with an enemy. My guess would be that the instructor lets the fights go on longer to allow you to feel the adrenaline and the fear as you are losing control in the situation and then forcing you to fight through that, like exhaustion training. There is also that concept of the zombie fighter phenomenon. Where the body keeps going, keeps fighting even though the attacker is functionally dead. You sticking your knife where you were sticking it would cause a shock response. When you were stabbing with the knife were you pulling it through the wound to lengthen the wound channel or just stabbing? It was a little hard to tell.
All in all a very honest video about the reality of unexpected situations unfolding.
Craig Douglas is indeed one of the best out there! Great video!
"Life's a dope deal." Truer words have never been spoken. Mike, it was a pleasure meeting and training with you that weekend.
I enjoy your content and look forward to training with you in the future. Great review of the course.
My main thoughts on the use of force is that when you fired (I'm talking about the clip where you started standing and two approached you) although you hit both people, it seemed like you only fired once for each. I'm not sure if it was possible but I would have kept firing for all the obvious reasons (active threat, adrenaline keeping people up etc) but also to attract noise and, one that alot of people dont talk about: *empty that magazine before an opponent has a chance to use it on you.* I never hear people talk about that at all but feel like it's critical in a CQC situation with a firearm.
Love the humility and honesty. It's part of what makes your content and teaching so great.
You never know what is going to be an incapacitating hit. And even someone shot through the heart might have 10-15 seconds of adrenaline to keep coming at you.
Exactly, or it could have been a grazing hit, or miraculously missed every vein and artery in the area, or the guy's on PCP, etc, etc.
@@N20Joe yes, pcp is an important observation, people use to forget how dope and crazy are some guys out there
I attended a Shivworks course a few years back. It was one of the most intense training classes that I have attended. Craig Douglas is an excellent instructor and worth training with.
Did ecqc a month ago. I've been training for almost 10 years and have trained with some high caliber people. Craig is easily in the top three of not the top. It was awesome. It led to me switching where I carry my holster. It was also annoying as I teach pre emptive striking and I failed at it. I teach punch defense and yet ate the first punch and I teach how to read body language and I failed to read it correctly. This was after Craig also taught all this stuff. Best experience ever. Can't wait to train with him again
Awesome insights into human psychology Mike. Love your humility. "Professor" Douglas is amazing. If you have not seen his "Reality of Criminal Assault" it is well worth the WPSN price of admission. He spends the first several episodes discussing how to realistically avoid the situation before getting into "solutions" to problems.
I think getting in the habit of not stopping when you think the encounter is over is huge. This also showcases the amount of discernment required to responsibly cc. Pull to soon or because you get jumpy and that's unlawful use of force. Take too much time and it won't matter what you got.
Awesome to see Mike and Craig together. I love hard2hurt and Shivworks.
A really good thing about the extended fights, sometimes shit happens and your gun jams, or you have dud rounds, or even a single bullet in the chamber, and sometimes you will miss that single shot, so you need to practice what happens after the rounds fire in case you don't hit a vital organ and only hit flesh.
Thanks for being so open & honest. It helps me learn. Also… I would like your opinion on the cliche pick & push knife also.
You had (IMO) sound defensive reactions, tried to keep both aggressors visible, and were able to shoot, deal with a malfunction, and fire again before being wrestled down. Pretty damn solid performance
One of your best videos in a while Mike! Always great to hear instructors vocalize their honest internal critique process as a way to show less experiened people how its done but also demonstrate that you should always be learning and challenging your methods. There is no mastery, there is only improvement.
Yeah, no matter what you do your training is going to be a little unrealistic but it's definitely better than knowing nothing.
So one thing I’m noticing that you did that I also did when I did some training where a weapon was involved, which was that the hyper focus on the firearm caused you (and me) to end up giving the dominant positions away to the opponent. In your case they took the back, in my case they had me bent over in a guillotine/side headlock. I’m not sure how to rectify this myself but it’s something I’ve kept in mind before as something to ask someone more experienced eventually.
In terms of whether you were justified, absolutely. Massad Ayoob’s lethal force institute training makes it very clear that for lethal force to be justified, the ability to cause grievous bodily harm or death, the opportunity to use that ability, and the jeopardy caused by the inability to avoid the danger must all be present. In the scenario where you shot, you’re faced with two attackers, and as a full grown men larger than you they have the capacity to grievously injure you. They have the opportunity to grievously injure you since they’re advancing, and you’re literally hemmed in (I guess simulating you’re in a room, or otherwise unable to escape), so the danger is inescapable/unavoidable. All three requirements are there, you’re justified.
Great review Mike, you and Vinny had some awesome evolutions. Looking forward to training with you again.
hell yeah... i will be at the next one they have there for sure
@@hard2hurt We are doing a course with Guy Schnitzler on Feb 5th in Jacksonville NC to deep dive into grappling in a weapons based environment. If you can make it out, it's going to be a great time.
Your openness and humility are why I have been a fan of your channel for quite some time. Thank you 🙏🏻
I remember reading Southnarc's posts on various forums on a 256kb internet connection about 15 years ago. He's been top notch training for a long time now.
That looks like an equally fun and terrifying way to spend a weekend. Mike, I'm sure you're not the only one wresling with some ego death and skills reassessment after that course. That stuff looks impossible to get good at without reps upon reps upon reps upon...
A great attribute of a person is his/her self-criticism, which Mike has. Great videos, great lessons, very creative and different points of view, very realistic for self-defense. Also indeed, Craig Douglas is a very accomplished Self-Defense and Combatives Course-Designer and Instructor who understands the main points of combative combinations and the right timiing and power necessary.
Great review of Craig’s classes. I really enjoyed his classes as well and have learned an immense amount of “real world” application of self defense techniques.
Man I love Shivworks! Been incorporating stuff from Craig into my training for a long time and really need to get a class from him
I’d love to see more videos just like this! Thanks!
Thank you so much for this video and showing the successes and failures and thanks to Craig for allowing you to film the class…so many wouldn’t but has me sold on taking this class at some point soon
Excellent video. Pressure can be another mind killer. Thank you for being humble enough to share this.
Hey Mike, Firstly Merry Christmas from Perth Australia. Hope you and yours are enjoying the holiday season. Recent subscriber and long time watcher of the channel, I love what you put out and cant wait to see whats coming up for 2022. Stay safe man and keep up the awesome work
Fantastic video Mike. Thanks for posting.
Major props man. Most guys, let alone someone in your position, wouldn’t come anywhere close to this level of openness and humility.
I'm a little concerned about full power, full force strikes in these scenarios. I wouldn't be comfortable "sucker punching" a scenario participant with full blast boxing combinations, and I wouldn't want them done to me, but at the same time I can't deny that much of the psychological and tactical advantage of the response is lost, even in training, if it isn't done with full power, full speed, full commitment strikes that genuinely hurt the participants. In that two on one example Icy Mike posted, things might well have been different if he'd seriously hurt the closer opponent with a preemptive attack that did real damage, but is that really an acceptable level of force, even in these training sessions?
On the other hand, and thinking about it further, I suppose that having opponents "ignore" your pulled punches feeds into the program's theme of having opponents continue to resist what "should" be debilitating attacks, so perhaps there's not actual an issue here?
very good observations... i know how to knock a person unconscious... but i can't bet my life on that. given more time, you could do more reps of each possible outcome.
I was once told by a boxer that he never sparred light. The rationale is when you spar lets say at 60%, you are only going to become good at 60% and not at 100%. And since striking is about reflexes/speed you should be prepared to go fast.
@Uncircumcised Circus that’s pretty dumb tho as you‘ll get injured much more and thus can train less
@@uncircumcisedcircus Yeah that's a guy who doesn't get a lot of training partners.
You guys can disagree and quite frankly I welcome peer review. But boxers today are not any better than they were even 60+ years ago. Do you know why that is? Because they fought more often and sparred less. So you really have 2 choices, fight often or spar often. And fighting is harder than sparring hard obviously. The only way you get better at anything whether it be lifting weights, racing cars or fighting is to increase resistance over time. Do you think f1 drivers go 30mph to get better at driving 200mph?
I respect you even more for posting your mistakes as well as your successes. I will definitely be signing up for this course in the near future!
Finished this class in December and it was an incredibly humbling experience. I will be taking this class again when he comes back to town.
I really admire and respect your honesty in self-assessment. Thank you for sharing this great video!
Seems like an awesome seminar!
I think Mike's comment about the broken trigger is super important for everybody. It takes both training and the right mindset to go from 0% to 100%. Most people are not prepared naturally to go crazy on a person, and it's a skill in itself to switch from a normal day mode to a full on fight mode.
It's crazy how sometimes when you get put into these kind of training scenarios (or real life ones), you see all the flaws in your training and how much harder or more you need to train. Seems like a cool experience and I'm glad you're able to reflect on everything you need to improve on for the benefit of all of us watching.
Talking about pearls of wisdom strewn throughout the thing, this is a quote from Mike (about 11:54): "It's a lot harder than it looks." :-)
This is the entire video in a nutshell: The reason why practice matters, why we're never going to excel at what we don't practise - it's always harder than it looks. A lot.
Totally respect your self analysis, and pointing out what drops out and the flaws that come in when adrenalin hit. Most instructors wouldnt do that- instead of trying to look good, you are being humble and learning, and sharing. Good on you. Thanks for posting.
What I've learned from watching SundownTE, Warrior Poet Society, and now you and your guy's training with Craig is the preemptive strike (aka striking first, aka the "sucker punch"), though not applicable in every situation, is a valuable tool that could actually prevent the need to use lethal force later.
Mike, great course review! Craigs ECQC course is definitely on my short list of classes to take soon.
Great Video. Loved it. Goes deep to the roots of the channel which I like best.
Thank you for the video. Great insight and extremely inspiring self reflecting thoughts.
Your well versed and I appreciate your hard training and showing all options for future martial artist!! I worked with the police and am well versed in ppcp policies and knife and firearm training, although I've never fired a gun in my life
Really glad you talked about this. You're getting there. Have known Craig for years.
I love you humility Mike
This video is fantastic. That is unbelievably good training. Mike, thanks for sharing your experience.
Appreciate your humility. A guy charged me a year ago, I made so many mistakes. I’ve been amazed at how much I forgot in the first few seconds.
Great Video! Definitely encourages the thoughts of expanding training
I love this channel, keep the content coming icy Mike
You did a great job Mike don’t be too hard on yourself. I don’t roll hard all the time but I do pretty often during the week. For me that helps my mind stay in the game and stay aggressive regardless of mood or energy levels.
Dude! @hard2hurt you look so broken! Your video is literally evidence of the thing we tell our kids in martial arts competitions. You either win or you learn! You learned a lot. Just make sure you apply the lessons.
Ive seen Craig before on WPS, i really like how he allows it to continue.
Great video
Review of your stand-up clip at 2:57
Verbal Warning √
Line Up Attackers √
Keeping Distance √-
Draw-Fire √
Two-Hand Mussle Control √-
Create Separation -
Overall: The first attacker would've sustained critical injuries almost immediately. While you took damage from the second attacker - I think you would've survived.
Grade: Pass
Always good to self reflect. Good video. Thanks Mike.
ECQC is one of the best classes I've ever taken . Very solid review of it .
One big thing you see in the class is how much ability difference there is between guys who have plenty of grappling practice vs dudes who a new to it .
Good info. Looking forward to how you digest it for the channel.
Awesome breakdown of this course.
Thank you for sharing
Craig Douglas is the man. Ecqc is one of the greatest classes I've ever taken. So much so I've taken it three times. I went first as a guy with some high school wrestling experience. Second as a blue belt in bjj. And this last time I went as a purple belt and I have tournament experience and four amatuer mma fights. Each time Craig modified the curriculum to build off of my skillset and challenge me. When he saw I could out wrestle one person, he threw in two more larger people. No matter who you are, or what your experience level is, you will leave a Craig Douglas class better. He will humble you, he will teach you, and he will make you a better, more well rounded self defender.
Thanks for posting
Training playfully has meant I've learnt more technique, however it's getting habitual for me too, and i frequently struggle against lower ranks who come in aggressively - I also need to work on my "switch".
good shout.
One of my favorite & most thought-provoking videos of yours I have seen. When you are carrying a gun without a lot of training it is hard to not fixate on it when it hadn't escalated to that point, & you would have been better off or more justified in letting your hands go. The fact that it is a course with firearms again creates a tendency that the answer to every problem is to draw & shoot first & Craig does an amazing job showing how wrong that can be. If anyone that carries a gun needed more reason to take BJJ here you go
I have literally ran away from people while concealed carrying! Avoid confrontation at all times until there is no other choice.
Keeping it going after a good shot will help train your mind to stay in the fight until it's over and not just assume your shot was effective.
Appreciated the candor!👍
The fact that you can make this video shows you know exactly what you are doing!
Everything is a lesson, in training you can afford to make mistakes and learn and rectify.
Heaven forbid you need to use it real anytime in the future, but I'm sure you'd do what's needed.
Don't beat yourself up, they did that enough for you ;)
That crotch knee slicer into reverse katami( scarf hold) in the opening was super slick. Osu!
Craig is great. You can see more of his stuff with John Lovell on Warrior Poet Society. If you practice Martial Arts & carry, it's pretty much a requirement if you are serious about self-defense. Even if you don't carry, you still need to be able to deal with a gun/blade in play.
theese are the REALLY important videos. Thanks Mike.
Such an interesting course. Thanks for the insight
Took ECQC back in June this summer. Loved it. Best thing i learned was that i never want to be in that situation with a real attacker and firearm, and how important avoidance and de-escalation really are.
I've been to three of his courses. Already in my sixties at the time. I've attended nearly sixty classes (yes, 60) and his were the most valuable for the mental 'stay in the fight' aspect.
Awesome video. Honest and real. Much respect.
Very Very cool Icy Mike - Good seeing this
Love that heel hook take down in 2nd video.
I agree most people won't understand what's going on. But you do a good job articulating the concepts. ECQC is also the most difficult class I've attended. (I mean quietly crying myself to sleep, difficult. )
Similarly, drawing guns too soon was a reoccurring mistake students made during the class I attended.
Props for honesty Icy Mike.
Dude, I hear you! Same predicament for me as an instructor, especially during COVID. Absolutely sucks not training for myself on a consistent basis like I did before 2020!
@hard2hurt Mike, in the senario maybe you should have answered the guy's quuestion with singing "Hotel California" out of nowhere...lol They say that taking out-of-the-box steps can de-escilate situatiobns. Perhaps it could also give you the edge in a tense situation too? Also, this is kind of a Kyle Writtenhouse situation so I'd say that a 2v1 situation justifies use of deadly force.
Craig is a legend. I'd love to take a class with him.
I really like this kind of content 👍
I remember Craig Douglas when he would post in self defense forums as southnarc. That's like 15+ years ago. I have one of the original Shivworks DVDs "Volume 1: Reverse Edge Method". A few months back I watched it again for the first time in many years. It has lots of great ECQC Pikal knife stuff.
There was a lot of good stuff on that old SDF site. Loved Craigs/Southnarcs stuff with the dot over his face in all the photos :D
It was very interesting to me to see the implementations of BJJ in some of these tussles. BJJ is often viewed as unfeasible as soon as it is taken out of its sport, that you don’t get to fully utilize your moves if your opponent can use strikes or has a weapon, but this shows that it CAN have its uses.
Great training!
It's just superb you can be so honest about all of this. That takes balls. Also a good tactic PR-wise ;-)
The good: loud / clear verbal commands, stacked your threats, made continued attempts to disengage. Hands up, or at least formed a "fence". The bad (or just not so good): should've tried to move at angles more than straight backwards, maybe taken the initiative to attack (possibly disable) the primary attacker, produced your weapon sooner (once you realized they weren't going to leave peacefully). As for the legal end of it? It looks legit to me, however, where you are in the country may change that. Of course, this is all being said from the comfort of my Lazy Boy. But I think overall you did well.
I understand the course is about the grappling/ground pound practicing.. but would you not have drawn sooner?.. as in before the perp reaches out for you?
The key point to concealed carry is to defend yourself from harm... being attacked by 2 guys looks like your about to be harmed something fierce..
It gets hinky making that decision. People are gonna act weird and get close in public... it's hard to pick the spot to draw on.
That class is HARD. What people. Don't see is 2-3 or more days of 10 hours of drills that come directly BEFORE your fights. Craig is a great guy. Really nice guy but 100% serious. He gives you every penny of your money's worth... and then some.
Great teacher.
This is why we train! Eat that humble pie and get back out there. You obviously learned that you have some rust in some areas and that’s okay. Now get back out there and make adjustments to improve yourself. Great video and I am very impressed on your honesty and candor.
Mike, it's more than just you not having thrown punches because you don't train enough. It's psychology. A bias we have that males us fight with the same weapons as our opponent. If he grapples, we grapples, if he draws, you draw. If he doesn't punch, you don't punch.
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Kudos great to see a trainer putting themselves outside their comfort zone , 😎🙌🏻
This training looks intense! I gotta check out his empty hand and contact weapons courses
"Life is a dope deal"!
Oh man I love that quote!
I can see the benefit in doing this type of training. Definitely would improve reaction timing and decision making skills.