THERE'S A BIG EMPTY HOLE IN MY BMW E31!!! (Project N74: Ep. 4)
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- #bmw #e31 #projectcars
THE LONG-AWAITED UPDATE IS FINALLY HERE!
Today, in episode 4 Mo unboxes the custom-made dry sump oil pan! Followed by a project update and first looks at the engineless E31!
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UPCOMING VIDEOS:
(INTRO TO THE TRACK : EPISODE 3 - DE)
(THE OFFCAMBER LIFE : SEASON 2 EPISODE 5 - BACK TO THE SHOP)
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@bridgestonetires
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Filmed and edited by Maya Karamat
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322 hp to be precise, but your point is still valid.
got a e31 myself.. hmmm. what about s85 swap. i know its been done before. wonder if i can afford to do it! god knows i really want it.
We talked about that, but the client really wanted a twin turbo V12...
@offcamberautosportshop what kind of price we talking? I've got a lead on a good s85 already
Nice project !!!
To satisfy my curiosity, why didn't you swap a N73B60 or B66?
N74 6.6lt twin turbo to get an output of...600hp.
This can be considered as a big bunch of heavy dead metal spinning around the block for almost nothing else than making this power unit very complicated and heavier then the NA version.
I am involved into such engines as we are developing a BMW N73B60/66 engine to swap.
This engine is fitted with a dry sump, in order to save room under the engine, we opted to set the oil pumps inside the dry sump, this to simplify the power unit integration.
A totally new air plenum is also part of the mods as the genuine one is just a shame, almost all the volumes being different on each pipes.
A completely new manual gear box casing has also been developed in order to perfectly match with the engine mounting interface.
In my opinion and technically speaking the N73 engine can more than easily deliver well over 600hp without any turbo need.
As the N73, the N74 ECU is CAN linked to the auto gearbox. Using another gearbox implies the need of deep programming tasks or request the OEM ECU swap.
Hope to see updates soon !!!
All the best for your great project !
(by the way, if you would consider selling the original N74 oil pan, I am interested!)
Hi! Thanks for all of the comments, and your kind words. First, yes, the N73 was definitely discussed. The client REALLY wanted to use the N74, so that is why we went in that direction. (we discussed on how much more complicated this swap would be - but he wants what he wants!) That is very cool that you are working on N73 swaps -- Would love to see your progress as well! What oil pump did you use? Ours will be an external unit. We are using the 8-speed auto box, but it will be driven by an external controller, so it can handle the clients power goals, we can tune the shifts, and the client will have paddle shifters on the column. We do not plan on using the stock DME, but a standalone system that we can program. Please stay tuned for more updates soon -- Enjoy the Drive -- Mo.
@@offcamberautosportshop
I now better understand the engine choice as it is a customer will.
For sure the engine will fit under the hood, then the challenge will be about building suitable attachments with absorbers and isolate the engine bay from the turbos heat.
Direction column and wheels rack will be another challenge, I am sure you will find appropriate solutions.
Oil pump: We kept the genuine twin stage pumps gears, a specific casing has been machined to host the gears, keeping the stock chain drive. The pumps internal pressure regulator between the two stages has been dropped. The thermostat and pressure regulator is then bolted onto a custom interface replacing the water-cooled alternator.
ECU: The N74 is "somewhat" easier to handle than the N73 as the Valvetronic is not there…but the turbos must be managed. There are some ways to fit two aftermarket ECU's working together managing "two 6 cylinders inline engines", this solution is certainly more affordable than getting an ECU able to manage a V12 fitted with double VANOS, direct injection and turbos.
On the N73 I have the "luck" to have some options to get the genuine ECU's (5 units!) working on the engine after some prog work.
Gearbox: Good option to get a gearbox coming with its standalone management, however I doubt that no interfacing is needed between the gearbox and the ECU's.
On my side I didn't consider sequential gearbox as I do not appreciate them, thus I decided to go through a complete gearbox casing redesign, incorporating a perfectly matching clutch bell to the engine interface together with an internal oil pump fitted there to cool the gearbox through an external radiator.
Hope to see updates soon, if I have time I'll try to post some vids from our work.
@@laurentvelati7565 I LOVE discussions like this, thanks! Wow, 5 DMEs! Totally crazy. I am still looking into options on the DME side. My goal is to have 1 standalone that will control all key engine functions. Yes, you are correct the "standalone" trans controller will have communication to the main DME. We looked at several options on the transmission, and for the client's needs the 8 speed with paddle shifters was the best one. I do love your idea of a custom case with additional cooling. Good luck with your project -- Would love to see what you guys are doing at some point! Enjoy the drive, Mo.
glad to see an update!
Hope you enjoyed! Another update will be coming soon 🦾
gj
wheres the updates for this fella!
Expect a project update next week! 🦾
Awesome
Troy, we hope you liked the video and project progress! 😃
@@offcamberautosportshop Loved it !
I was going to comment about the weight of the old engine, but then I looked it up and the M73 engine was also an alusil block, so there shouldn't be a massive weight difference between the engines. The main improvement is coming from increased displacement, modern direct injection that allows you to run higher compression even with pump gas, and the inclusion of more ports and DOHC with dual VANOS units per head for variable valve lift and timing on both intake and exhaust. It is, comprehensively, a better engine design, so it'll be quite a nice upgrade, but the block itself isn't as wildly different as I had initially thought. It's mostly in the heads. Given how ridiculously solid the M73 engine has always been, that's probably a good thing. Old V12 BMWs may leak like a sieve, but as long as you give them enough fluids they do seem to run forever.
Yes, I agree the new N74 engine is a LOT more efficient than the older M73. I was just being dramatic for the video.. :) Thanks for watching -- Enjoy the Drive! -- Mo
It's kind of unfortunate to use a m73 e31. There was less built than 850csi's were made. Only 1200 of them were made.
You've gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet 😛
@offcamberautosportshop of course! This is a phenomenal build in which I will continue to follow. Whats going to happen with the m73 engine?
@@davidt.6415 Thank you we hope you're enjoying the series thus far!🙏 We're glad you asked...we have some plans for the m73 engine!👀
Just a peanut gallery comment here. Not a personal attack. You are fitting this modern drivetrain to a vintage car, while you should be fitting the vintage car to this modern drivetrain. This is a case were you can't beat the BMW factory setup.
You shouldn't do the external 8hp controller, or a standalone ecu, or fueling, or whatever else you are going to spend thousands and thousands on to try to make this work over the next 3 years. I see so much of this crap. You are going to add a solid year or more to this project trying to get all of your aftermarket control to "play nice", and still have a car that will have drivability issues. The aftermarket 8HP controllers are mid, at best. Same with most aftermarket controllers you may be looking at to manage that V12. They are totally fine for drift, race, and drag cars, though.
Builders and fabricators completely neglect the fact that BMW already did virtually EVERYTHING you need for you. One of the few I've seen who totally understands this is Chris from B-is-for-build. Sure, his fit and finish isn't ever fantastic. But look at what he did with the S550 mustang and the BMW V10 powered datsun Z for an idea of what I am on about. His approach is not to modernize the old car with new stuff. It is to antiquate the new stuff with the old body.
If you had driven a stock G12 M760i you'd quickly realize what you are going to be missing out on. You probably spent more on that used engine alone than a complete running, wrecked M760i sells for at Copart or IAAI. You should have just bought a complete wrecked M760i, taken the Kombi, the BDC2 module, both DMES, the engine, the fuel pumps, wiring harnesses, the transmission and anything else you want from that donor car and grafted them into the 850i shell. Hell, the subframes and EPS could be made to fit easier than it will be to find a custom solution for the E31 steering with that N74 in the way. You are already to the point where you are talking about cutting up frame rails, so what does it matter? You aren't preserving more than the shape of the car, and the stock interior anyway.
With those items, some frankensteining b-is-for-build-datsun-z-style, and a little BMW esys programming you would have had a turn key swap that actually worked well so you could then focus on the other fine details of the build. Not to mention, you'd have had an anti-theft/immobilizer that actually works and can't be cracked by any tool as of today. You could even have an emission compliant swap at the end of the day. All packaged more effectively than any of us ever could manage without a team of engineers working on it for 10 years.
The stock DMEs have a fantastic tune that will twist that E31 in half. And if it isn't enough, there are tons of off the shelf tunes for those DMEs that can get you near the numbers you want. Not to mention the crazy amount of I/O the stock DMEs offer that absolutely will not be found in any standalone setup under 30 grand. Much less one that will communicate well with the transmission. High-pressure fuel management, oil pressure management, charge management, engine cooling management, A/C? the list goes on. So many reasons to use the stock DME and required modules.
The stock 8HP95 from that M760i can handle more torque than you could ever throw at it with that V12 on stock turbos, and can easily be converted for RWD output only. Even better, it's already tuned and programmed PERFECTLY for that engine application. If you have any gripes with that, there are again many off the shelf upgrades and tunes that can easily change that.
Need anything else like battery management? Power distribution control? It's right there in the donor car. pre-engineered, pre-packaged, ready to be adapted.
Just suggesting you take a step back for a wider view, if you actually want to finish this project. BMW already did all of the hard stuff for you, yet here you are trying to reinvent the wheel. Clearly you see the benefit of using the factory engine and accessories, because BMW did it more efficiently than any of us ever could without spending 300,000 dollars. So what I am asking: why stop there? Your time would be spent treating the 850i as a moldable shell to modify, rather than treating that marvel of a v12 drivetrain as the moldable item. We are talking a job of general fabrication, design, and programming to make a near ready-to-run package fit VS you trying to completely reengineer, modify, retrofit, and troubleshoot one of the most complex drivetrains on earth to work in a car designed 50 years ago, THEN still have to do the fabrication, design, and programming...
It's a no brainer dawg. Best of luck with the project. I respect just forcing your way through it to get it done though, even if it seems like the hard way in my experience. I hope you finish it at this rate. It breaks my heart to see how many of these projects start strong, seemingly great, then they slowly fizzle out until we never hear about them again. Maybe a video of them starting on a dyno one day, and then silence for 7 years after as they realize they bit off more than they can chew with a complete cluster they have created and can't finish. You know how it is. You see the car in the background of every video taking up a lift space in a working auto shop for years and years.
-Keyboard warrior
Hi and thanks for the feedback. So while you do have some very valid points (in most swaps we do exactly what you are mentioning, use a LOT of the stock BMW bits). In this case the client wants a unique and special car, and that is what we are doing. Building him a one-off marvel. I do disagree around the trans control, I believe we have a very configurable / controller that will work well with whatever DME we choose. We have even thought though future maintenance, and are fabricating a rig to remove, and hold the drivetrain for maintenance (It will be waaaaay too tight in the engine bay to do any serious maintenance). I have lots of notes, and diagrams on what we need to tackle, and yes, this is a multi-year project, but in the end the client will have exactly what he wants. Keep watching, as we NEVER give up on any project! Enjoy the Drive, Mo
Is the pump/ pan design a semi-dry or full dry sump?
Why not integrate the engine mounting solution into the pan design?
What pipes/ lines or hoses are requiring you to notch the frame horn in the engine bay?
Assuming you factory steering geometry is unchanged, due to the smaller oil pan, but can you confirm?
Will this car be running hydraulic power steering & the original brake booster (If so look at retrofitting a Tesla EBMS & a Toyota Prius EPS column driver, both are stand alone, cheap & easy to source & free up a TON of room in the engine bay, making the swap process much easier)
Hi Jesse - All great questions. The system will be a FULL dry sump setup -- Integrating the motor mounts into the pan might have been a good idea, but there are a lot of other factors involved -- Eg. We will not be using the original engine carrier, but will be fabbing up a custom one, so we will have a lot more flexibility. (& initial design work) This engine has a lot of plumbing, so we want to make it easy to remove / install the engine as possible, hence notching the frame rails a bit for extra clearance. We are building a custom engine table to make removing / servicing of this engine simple. Ah the steering is an excellent point! No, the factory gear box will not work, neither will the factory steering shaft. At this point we are still researching options, but I am pretty confident the final solution will not be hydraulic, but electric. keep watching as we are hot and heavy in this project, and look forward to posting more frequent updates -- Enjoy the Drive -- Mo
@@offcamberautosportshop Make sure you consider the OEM steering geometry & stroke/ ratio specifications of the E31, the OEM steering box has a VERY broad stroke & a relatively aggressive ratio. the majority of swaps Ive seen on the E31 have considerable compromise in this area of the swap & the user experience suffers greatly. If you're plans are to convert to a rack & pinion type steering system, I suggest you look at the 80's/ 90's Cadillac steering racks (although they are hydraulic, they have good stroke range, excellent ratios & they are CHEAP.) you can get one delivered for sub-$200USD, then play with de-powering, adapting a Prius steering column driver & a steering quicker, if needed. PS: convert to a single battery & put the oil pot in the rear, with a ball valve, for easy oil changes. Another part to look at is the EARLY generation Tesla E-brake booster, they are also cheap, plentiful & internally managed, so they are great for the E31 conversion (its already been well documented)
@@jesseframe5134 Thanks for the information! You are correct, this is not going to be a simple quandary to resolve! We will not allow the client to suffer with sub-par steering response, so we are looking into several options. The other factor is to fully dry fit the engine into the bay, so we will be able to see how much, and where we have room. More to come - Love the input, please keep it coming!
@@offcamberautosportshop Is the goal to run a factory ECU for the engine? What transmission & differential will be used?
It’s difficult to give advice without knowing the overall application of the vehicle or how far from the factory formula the client is willing to stray.
Municipal regulation can also create difficulties on resto-mod projects, due to vehicle inspections. I suggest you discuss these matters with your client & give them the option to register the vehicle out of state.
@@jesseframe5134 In terms of engine control, I would love to be able to use the factory DME from the N74 -- the issue that we are potentially facing is the programming that we will need to do. We are also looking at stand alone options such as a Cosworth, and a few others which will give us much more control over the engine. In terms of transmission, we have decided on the stout GA8HP with an aftermarket control unit. (again allowing for us to fine tune the trans shift points, etc.) This will be a street / show car, so the client has been very open to our ideas. Thanks again for your intelligent conversation -- I appreciate it!