HAAS vs DOOSAN - CNC LATHE SHOWDOWN - Pierson Workholding Q&A
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- Join the conversation as we talk through the pro's and con's of Haas vs Doosan in this CNC lathe showdown!
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In this week's Pierson Workholding Q&A it's Haas vs Doosan!
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00:00 - Haas v Doosan Intro
00:30 - Experience buying my first lathes
02:40 - Doosan Lathe
04:20 - Pro: Haas Control
04:48 - Pro: Haas Service
05:38 - Pro: Haas Selection
06:31 - Pro: Doosan Well Built
07:00 - Pro: Doosan Accuracy
07:53 - Con: Haas Sub Spindle
09:28 - Con: Haas VDI Turret
10:21 - Con: Doosan Fanuc Control
12:26 - Con: Doosan Standard Equipment
13:55 - Con: Doosan No Airguns
#Haas #Doosan #HaasVsDoosan - Наука та технологія
I've ran many turning centers of both brands. Always found that the Doosan was a much more ridged machine. Bigger depth cuts in harder material.
I work on a puma 700l and love those machines. I have worked on mazak and mori seki and a few others. But nothing is like doosan
I have worked on both Haas and Doosan for years, in my opinion Hass is your IPhone camera and while Doosan is the DSLR, haas has many fancy things, you will like it when you are a beginner, and if you are a professional and move towards high ends like precision and flexibility you need a machine like Doosan
I would say this is factually true. I worked on HAAS controllers as a beginner and actually felt much more impressed and comfortable with our EMCO Fanuc 21 Controller Lathe, as well as later on when I worked on Mills with Mitsubishi Controls and Okuma. Overall Fanuc-based or similar controllers are more professional and open-ended. Our Mitsubishi was entirely tailored for custom integration with PLC controls, robots, etc. The Fanuc was perfectly integrated for drip-feed code ops. But for one-off and simple jobs, our HAAS was fine. Did not hold up to the abuse we put to it tho. I will say that. The 10hp Spindle on our Fanuc was far superior and DESTROYED steel.
So being used to the Fanuc control from some older Moris, as well as having run some Haas Lathes, I would any day take a rigid Fanuc controlled machine over a floppy Haas that can barely keep .0005" tolerance. Our 1997 Moris run more stable than a 2019 St20y in our shop.
Not sure what it's like in the states but in the uk Doosan have a massive selection of machines available, come with fanuc as standard (world recognised standard on most machines) and the service is phenomenal.
Should add Siemens is also now an option in the UK
I just bought a new Haas Vf4ss, but I looked at Doosan also. One huge temptation with Doosan is the Roller guide ways and the MASSIVE castings. Big plus spindle was standard. Doosan just looks like a better-built machine. However, you're not just buying the machine -- you're buying a total solution and overall, Haas won me over. The control, the service, the youtube videos, the transparency in pricing, the user network. I'm not doing incredibly heavy work in tough materials on a regular basis.
Very well thought out points! There are a lot more factors that ACTUAL owners have to consider besides feed rates and linear vs box ways.
...until you get a roughing job in Titanium
@@masoncnc I machine titanium quite often on my vf2ss with great success and great surface finishes. (These parts have bearings running on the surface). That being said im not hogging the crap out of these parts and no the Haas isn't good for that. I believe though machining strategy plays a big part on running a Haas happily. If you're coming off a mori or something like that and expect to hog with it you'll be disappointed. If you do a lot of hsm style machining they tend to work pretty well.
I'm not really a fan of doosan, but I'm my experience they are far superior to haas, especially the lathes
We have doossan lathes and haas mills, i dived into the programming at the machine with the haas control, i can tell you its not easy and IT takes a long time. With the doossan lathes i am pretty sure i can program the products faster at the machine then they can at the office. That's. Big big pro to me because when i make a program at the machine its way easier to change and i can see way better what the machine is going to do. the fanuc on the doossan machines is great to work with.
Programming is programming. They both use Fanuc style G-code. Why would one take you longer than the other when you are doing actual manual programming? G00 X10. is the same in both machines. Makes no sense to me.
Man these videos are amazing! I am just learning CNC.
Great overview of the two brands lathes. I've spent quite a bit of time on both and and agree with you on most points. I make the same faces when I talk about Fanuc controls. I found Doosan to be a vastly superior machine mechanically.
We just got a Doosan Lynx 2100L this year and I love it. The fanuc control was a concern but its actually pretty good compared to older versions. It produces awesome finishes and is very accurate as Jay mentioned.
fanuc isn't as intuitive, but definitely learnable.
My experience with these machines (VMC)
We have a haas VM2 mold maker and 4 Doosan (2X DNM5700 & 2X DNM4500).
and Doosan is amazing, better finishes, more robust, greater precision, better construction. I would dare to say that the materials with which it is manufactured are even better, including machine painting.
The annual maintenance cost is significantly lower in Doosan.
haas has an excellent technical service, but the machine breaks down a lot, this does not happen with doosan. (Maybe that's why they are so good at the service, they call them a lot to repair their machines)
Here in Mexico Doosan is significantly more expensive than haas. I don't think they should compete in the same product range.
a fairer comparison in my opinion, would be Hass vs. Chevalier.
Doosan is a range higher.
as a VF3 owner, i'd say 5700 is worlds apart
Daewoo had a surprise for one of my employers. Two and three years after buying a pair of turning centres, the provincial (Canada) electrical inspection board made it mandatory that all the big red emergency switches be replaced. Daewoo, however, would not pay for that. I'm sure it's not unique to that brand, but thermal growth made life more difficult. After a lot of roughing, getting the proper shaft size for the bearing took a lot of care.
We too chose Doosan over Haas on a new project, but not because I didn't think we could make the parts on the Haas. We loved the integrated options you can add on a Haas (probing, coolant refill, etc.) and for those that barfeed like us, Haas makes their own barfeeder that they themselves provide with spindle liners etc. There aren't too many companies doing that. We only ended up with the Doosan for two reasons: 1) We needed more capacity, so we went with a twin turret which Haas did not offer 2) Doosan offers a remnant/part catcher on the main spindle which prevents me having to cut up my remnant or let it land on my way covers. Both machines are solid choices for different reasons, and I will echo your point Jay that the Haas controller is much easier to find training for. Great video, love what you do. Keep em coming.
Thank you Raju. We have very similar reasons for ending up with Doosan lathes. - JP
Being well built and accurate, I think doosan wins it for me
Can't afford either of them though.
Doosan (previously known as Daewoo) are strong, reliable even when I bought a second.
I run a doosan 2600y and a doosan 2100sy on the 2100 sy use both chucks and royal quick grip collets. The collets only go so big in size
Jay what model of Doosan you used to make that part you are showing? I´m about to buy a used 2005 daewoo puma 240 (41,500 us dll) up in my shop in Mexico in very good conditions, preventive maintenance and backlash included. I like your videos very much, they are very good. Thank you
i have neither the doosan or haas, i am a lathe major, mill minor. i prefer the fanuc control because between 5 diferent machine manufactures i work on they all behave the same, as opposed to my lone okuma lathe which i regularly throw tantrum in front of(the mill guys love the okuma control and hate the fanucs). it all depends on what you work on and how long you've been dealing with it
I disagree with you saying that the selection from Haas is better then Doosan. That's flat out misinformation. Doosan has a wider range. The only place for lathes that Haas has is the Chucker and Toolroom lathe. While Doosan sells Twin Turret, Multitasking, and Verticals. If you aren't used to a Fanuc, you hate it. I hate Haas controllers cause they don't have a dedicated Knob for Feed and Spindle override. Push buttons for first time program running is horrible. Haas does nickel and dime you to death. A year ago I bought a Lynx 2100LSY with Bar feeder for $135,000. You can get an ST-15 for about that price, but the Doosan is better in every aspect.
You can compare it to Formula-1
Haas is Haas und under the average.
Doosan is RB (Red Bull) nice but not the Top.
Indek, Mazak DMG are Mercedes, the best, but very expenfully.
But if you compare the results dividing to the costs Doosan will win (the race)
We are actually Fanuc fans at our shop, mostly because it is all we have used over the 20 years. Also Fanuc quality is great and parts are easy to get used when needed. However because the Haas service seems so good we ordered two Haas's to give them a try. I am sure we will be happy. Our work is all light duty. Also Haas is built in the USA.
So how did it go
I am still partial to the Okuma lathes. We just got a Doosan Puma 2100SY used low hour machine. I have run it 2 days so far.
Good solid advice.
I have a Haas SL30 and a Leblond Makino FMC60 with fanuc control. My only complaint about fanuc is the memory. It’s a pretty basic control with only a spindle load meter for any viewable status. Now this is a 1991 model so I imagine the newer ones have more displayed. The haas is a 2000 model so I imagine the same goes for the newer ones too. I’d like to see haas go to roller ways one day. Amtech here in Texas sells a Taiwan made vmc named Sister that has roller bearing ways and is way more rigid than a haas and is cheaper. Don’t get me started on the control lol. A local shop has one and I’ve seen it run. I’m sure once you get used to it then it’s a good machine.
I would take the fanuc control over the haas any day. the best thing about owning a fanuc controlled machine is that once you learn it you then can go stand in front of many many different machines across the world and navigate around the control and be running them very quickly with little time spent re learning.
I am opposed to manufacture specific controls because the likelihood of running that exact control in another shop is low. if an operator learns one fanuc he's going to have an easy time getting a job in just about any shop no matter the manufacture of machine if it's got a fanuc control.
Another Pro about Fanuc is that it's dead rock solid and performs flawlessly every time insanely reliable. How many times have you had your hass control crash ? I own haas machines and the software is buggy and finicky and prone to random software crashes and even machine crashes ive seen for others. This is not the case on fanuc. In a manufacturing environment (think large scale, 100's or even 1000's of employees running machine controls) software bugs slow down the entire company. My haas bugs out several times a year, my fanuc just keeps making the donuts :)
The documentation from fanuc on their control is second to none. the manuals available on all their control aspects are massive amount of pages almost thick as war and peace and extremely thorough. This says they take the time to pay attentions to every last detail.
I like the green screen back ground. Also clicked subscribe because i was tryin to click next video but was so drunk i missed. I drive indexes at work and i havent heard of worse machine ever. I worked at a place where they had all doosan, seemed very good machines but of course, they made in korea. Went to a job interview to a place who have all haas, they seem happy about those.
I think it actually does look like Haas has a 'nickel and dime you' attitude. When you look at the price of the machine. It's pretty much bare bones, and by the time you add on a bunch features that really should be standard, the price is inflated an additional $20-$30,000. Some of their prices is outrageous. Especially digital ones. Like having a Second Home Position, costs $800 somehow. That is really just a binary switch you've already paid for, if you knew what Bit to flip into a 1. They make the advertised price look good, and lock many important features away, and make you pay on the controller. Also, don't know why their "High Speed Milling" ability, isn't their gold standard for performance, to landmark the machine's function. It shouldn't be "extra". Without that, the machine is dead. Don't bother buying ballnoses, or have adaptive clearing strats. No point.
Haas is really good, the more you can get away with their default bare package, and upgrade nothing. The only saving grace about Haas is that 1GB memory. Fanuc is cancerously cheap to memory and still think it's a 1980 rare commodity.
it gives them the ability to enter the market at a lower price point. charge the guy that wants 2nd home to pay for it while those who don't, not too. doosan is selling features to everyone if they want them or not, which gives the feature a lower price per machine. its real simple. if you don't like haas, don't buy one. the level of service from haas to other MTBs isn't even comparable. someone has to pay for that network to exist. would you rather pay 800 for a convenience feature or 5x as much for feature you NEED but get itemized out.
The thing with the Haas tho is that those features aren't exactly hidden away or kept from you until the last minute, they're quite up front that the "starting from" price is a good deal lower than what you will be into it for. The online equipment configuration tool is very transparent and dealing with the sales people (while they do like to start throwing in those add-ins with a quick "gonna need that" pretty quick while you're sitting there) the a-la-carte method pretty-much takes any "surprise" out of the equation. You know exactly what you're getting for what price and can do a lot of comparison and evaluation of what you truly need before pulling a trigger.
The options seem like a big plus, even though some of them start getting pricey for what they are ($2k for the HSM code for example)
So when you order that plain burger did you get a discount when you took the pickles and lettuce and tomato off.... nope you paid the same. You ordered a deluxe because it was the special of the day and good deal. Same with doosan you can factory order the machine exactly how you want but you Will wait and might not save any money.
my vmc was 43k delivered, set up and running. i don't feel nickel and dimed at all. i could opt out of a chip auger and get a 4th axis or 10k spindle instead without the price of the machine going up. you can't do that on a doosan. every machine is different, buy the one the fits your needs not someone elses.
Your idea of "features that really should be standard" can be VERY different from someone else's. I'll take bare bones and pay for exactly what I want. You're right about the Haas HSM upgrade. Head to head competitions would never be the same if it were standard.
Hey I love your videos. I also love automation. Will we ever get a video showing the robot arm in action?
I wonder if the robot can make the video of the robot in the video?
Coming very soon!
I share your sympathies with the Fanuc controller. Haas is such a more modern control interface, it's not perfect, but more palatable than Fanuc controllers. Fanuc is more ubiquitous across a lot of different applications, (robots, mills, etc), but for my shop ease of use is hard to beat on the Haas control.
All cnc controls are easy now , I remember using a 5t control on a Mori-Seiki SL-3 in 1978 one line programming , you could only see one piece of code at a time you could see the X value then you would cursor to Z you did not have a full screen like the later 6t & 3t controls
We are in the lathe market over the next year. I agree with pretty much every point you've made here. For me, the Haas control is the reason that we're 80% sure of going with a almost fully loaded ST20Y. Even with the weird NGC bugs, I just have too much Haas lathe experience with previous machinist jobs I've had to make the controller switch. Like you said, there's a need to make parts on day 1! Great video, Jay
updates are rolling out fast for NGC. but the control really isn't confidence inspiring. i still don't 100% trust my haas but i 1000% trust my Fanuc 0t on my lathe
To Haas' credit, they will install new software to squash bugs on the NGC - no questions asked. It's always getting better.
@@PiersonWorkholding yeah, I'm on my 3rd update this month.
For the price of a fully loaded st20y you can get an Okuma lathe same options. Personally whenever I see someone buy a fully loaded has I laugh because for the same price you can get literally 10 times the machine in an okuma (or Nakamura or a few other brands) I'm serious though haas lathes are complete trash compared to some of these other Japanese brands that are the same price. I don't mean to bash haas but when it comes to lathes it's very true
@@85CEKR i never see anyone buy fully loaded haas machines. hell, even my haas sales guy tells me when your exceeding the value point of the machine. But since you mention it you can get a Nak or Okuma for 61k? Thats how much a st20y was in september. the advertised price on haas isn't what you pay. theres all kind of "sales" and rebates the other big sellers never do....haas IS NOT the best machine. they don't claim to be or compete to be. haas is the meat of the bell curve. the every mans machine.
Favorite video yet!
Suggestion for Next Video:
[Haas Daily/Weekly Cleaning & Maintenance for Rust Prevention]
I'm taking a Haas milling class, and while the machines here are only 2 years old (heavily abused), there's a bit of light rust and rust marks, spots etc. I'm guessing every machine shop has a different clean-up routine, I'm really curious, what is your daily/weekly routine to keep your machines as new as possible? Which rust preventative do you use, how often, how does it affect coolant concentration (two of my teachers say not to use rust preventative often, perhaps weekly, while my other teacher says to douse the machines every time), etc. Speaking of which, which coolant do you use? Anyway, as far as I know, even Haas doesn't have a daily/weekly cleanup routine video, nor does UA-cam. I'd love to see how you guys use the air gun, tips and tricks, how you dry the machine, and apply rust inhibitors etc.
Thanks!
Misiu
If it is rust inside the machine you're talking about, try to change the coolant concentration or the coolant type. We have experienced some corrotion at our shop with a certain coolant.
Not crazy about the fanuc control on the doosan but they walk all over anything haas has to offer on accuracy everyday all day mill or lathes. Haas control is no better at all. I sent a new v6 back. It was terrible. Probably would have kept it but they never would come install the toilet seats in it.
I too felt the same, but after running a 31i in am sold. Very intuitive control
I agree with everything you said. I grew up on haas but when I got on Doosan I began liking them more; mostly because the speed and accuracy. If I were to buy myself, it would probably be haas.
The sub spindle does brake and index on the new Haas finishing spindle.
Correct, but it doesn't interpolate like the Doosan sub.
@@PiersonWorkholding Correct. When I priced a comparable Doosan it was $40,000 more than my ST-20Y.
I work with both Haas and Doosan lathes at my work . I can tell you that , if you are a good machininst both are good options.If you are a beginner then Doosan with Siemens control is a better option.
Fanuc is the cheapest control, as standard, use it with CAM and you will be happy. Spraygun is an option you can choose. Doosan has a lot of machines in stock in Europe, Germany, 500 pieces, that means fast delivery.
HAAS has many great features and very low prices, especially on 5-axis machines, very operator oriented, unfortunately they often get compared with much more expensive machines, thats not a fair comparison, because Mazak, Okuma, DMG and Mori Seiki is much better at the double price.
Haas is great for those who machine parts and machining time is not an issue, Doosan is great for those who mainly need to run parts were the consistency is key.
I bought and run Neway cnc Lathes and mills because are 20% less expensive than the Corean and are Assembled in TX.
worked on both, personal opinion, I'd choose Doosan with a 828d controller.
I have ran both Haas VF4SS and currently run a Doosan 5700. Both have there place but the Doosan is the better machine. The Fanuc wasn't hard to learn, one week of "training" and I was running it just as well as a Haas controller. The only complaint with the Doosan is that I cant run coolant wash down with the doors open without bypassing the door interlock.
At my work we have always went with Mazak. But when we bought a new lathe (to be delivered next month) we could not justify the price Mazak was charging. So we decided to go with a Goodway GLS2800YS with Siemens Shopturn 828D control instead of the Fanuc control. The Goodway was less than half the price of the Mazak.
Has anybody worked with a Goodway lathe or with the Shopturn control before?
I work with a goodway GLS2800, no Y or sub and a fanuc environment. It is a surprisingly capable little machine once everything is dialed in. I have to say, I didn't initially love the chuck clamping range sensor and I couldn't find the adjustment/zeroing procedure for it in the manual. I'd honestly rather have the standard 2 prox set up. On ours, I also had to make a cover plate for the parts catcher as we rarely do large production volumes and it would waste a lot of coolant to leave open. The support has been surprisingly good which is a major bonus because the manuals are definitely lacking. The live tooling blocks so far are just okay, they are a bit on the loud side and I have to worry about their long term health. I also really wish they had through coolant capabilities but, that is a big ask for live tooling.
We are looking at a new lathe and we looked at the Haas lathe with APL. We also looked at the Takisawa Lathe with gantry loader, well see what way we go. As for used machines, i have always bought used machines and have been bitten a few times and still have some great machines i scored. Unless i can find a deal from an original owner i do not think i will buy used again. The cost to move the machine and set it up in your shop and the time required to do that and fix anything on the used machine, even at a screaming deal, is not worth any minimal savings. (to us)
The caveat, If you have time and the know how and the drive. You might as well buy a used machine and fix it up. When i was younger i had time and no work to even run on a cnc so i bought used ones and eventually had a nice machine to find side work with.
AmeriBrade Grinders we have been running a Takisawa TCN-2100 for about a year. Seriously solid machine. Box ways make for nice big cuts and if your operator bumps a big tool in the turret you won’t have to call your HFO to come realign it. Night and day machine compared to a Haas.
Both machines can do great work with the correct operator. In my shop, it takes a more experienced machinist to keep the parts on size in the lathe. ( SL30). After 4 hours of running , the temperature stabilizes, and it hold a size ok. For repeatable tenths work though, it’s not the machine. It does everything ok, just not very accurate also when coolant temp increases from roughing large stock. Must be careful on finish passes.
The Japanese and Korean machines have better thermal stability. They have that figured out. Doosan’s are a definite step up in rigidity and longevity. Doosans share a lot of traits with Japanese machines too, I’ve worked on them and side by side, HAAS machines are built fairly light duty, the spindles are the heart of the machine, Doosan has a very rigid spindle as well.
On my DMG cnc Lathe i just need 30 minutes warm up and the machine has reached teperature and machines all day in tolerance.
I like Fanuc controls. It's not for a novice or hobbyist, but it's also not PC based and won't lock up on you.
I like that Haas are American made machines and very customizable but I am used to using a machine with boxed ways. Not sure how a Haas with linear guides would compare...
The IO series and newer are pc based and run on windows
Yes you can hold 10ths or less on a Haas or many other machines. It all depends on the materials and having the right tooling for the job with an operator that knows what they're doing when it comes to making the adjustments to dial the things in.
If I took nothing else away from this video, I took away that bacon should be on all burgers. Which yes, you're goddamn right it should be.
I’m sorry but if your telling me that doosan and haas are even in the same realm that’s crazy. I have had haas lathes that increase .008 over an 8 hour shift next to a doosan lathe that’s 10yrs older that still holds .0001 all day long.
So why did you put up with it? You need to get rid of any lathe that moves that much.
Many factors to consider, like how hard are these machines being beat up and maintained. The best way to keep them accurate and running well, regular maintenance.
There is something about a using a CNC machine today that is running the same basic controller I used on Mills/Lathes in 1980-89 I have a problem with the company choosing that controller.
Give me a machine with a good controller, good motors and fantastic scales and you can bust tenths all day. And the best way to make the best stuff is to do it yourself and don't rely on anyone else, 100% control over everything. My first job running a NC Lathe was an adapted turret lathes with a GE-550 and GE-1050 Tape based controller with thumb wheels for setting offsets. I was turning main shafts for jet engines for cruise missiles, in Inconel 718 no less.
I'd pick Doosan, especially with the work MillsCNC are doing in the UK
Agree with just about everything. The latest Haas ST’s are better than any other Haas lathe in the past, however no where close to the PUMA line. I like them both.
The Haas conversational is awesome!
If you got the doosan with Manual Guide i or EZ Guide i conversational programming it will beat the haas version of quick code hands down. Yes there is a learning curve but what doesn’t these days.
The Fanuc control will have more Macro B registries.
The Fanuc control has KNOBS for the feedrate and spindle. This is huge! I hate the haas buttons.
Haas has more online help
Haas has the best user friendly control
Haas has the best way to turn off the damn look ahead for macro programming. ( Fanuc has multiple ways that all suck. The best way is to stack multiple lines of G4 before and after your calculations.)
To compare is good, to find what you prefer to buy.
But as you are a HAAS guy.
You would have chosen a HAAS Lathe.
Not a Doosan ??
Experience will tell you to buy the Doosan over a HAAS.
But without Doosan or better experience a lot would choose the HAAS.
Mainly for the controller.
But as the Doosan comes with the Siemens (828) option.
This would be twice as good as the HAAS comparable lathe.
But if someone gave me a ( NEW ) HAAS ST20Y.
I would Not complain.
But if i need to pay for a good enough machine.
Definitely a Doosan.
An Excellent machine for the asking price.
There is better IF you have the money.
None of our new Mazaks came with air guns, or wash guns. We had to put a splitter block on the main air inlet on the machine, and run a hose ourselves for the air gun, and we still don't have wash guns at all.
Because they can’t sell them with the machine some regulation
Can you make a video on the fanuc robodrill and one for the nakamura tome lathe?
No sorry, I don't own those machines. Try Grimsmo Knives' channel.
@@PiersonWorkholding :( ok
I HAVE RAN BOTH IT IS SIMPLE. ALUMINUM PLASTIC SOME SOFT STEEL GET A HAAS. BUT IF YOU ARE CUTTING INCONEL OR ANYTHING SIMILAR THEN GET A DOOSAN BUT EVEN BETTER GET A MORISIEKI
EASE OF USE AND QUALITY PRODUCTION PARTS GO HAAS. IF YOU HAVE REALLY TOUGH METALS TO CUT REPEATEDLY THE DOOSAN IT IS A HEAVIER DUTY MACHINE
Sir can you please make a video about high torque cuts vs high rpm cuts and pros and cons? What's the modern standard?
It's too simple for a full video. The modern approach is max sfm for the material, full axial length of cut, 10%-20% radial width of cut and high feedrates.
@@PiersonWorkholding thank you so much for your response. can you please advise where I can read more about this concept/topic?
I watched this video and bought a new ST10 and wish I hadn’t! Has a major problem they still haven’t solved. 20 days of downtime for 60 hours cut time and wait 5 days a time for breakdown assistance. Warranty not much use when the downtime costs you a few thousand each time. Should have gone Doosan and still might yet if I can sell this dead duck
Linda máquina qual é o preço
Hello, Doosan machines are far more sturdy and superior in comparison with Haas...
Why not choose the sinumerik 828D control for the lynx? It has been an option for some years now.
I setup a lathe with an 840D control (Index C200) for an entire year before moving to our milling department which has Mazak and Brother controls. 1 month later I needed to go back and help with a setup...and could not remember for the life of me how to load a program. Sinumerik is layer upon layer of buried menus. If you wanna talk unintuitive controls, Sinumerik is definitely high on the list. To top it off, the code is just different enough that it would not be a smooth transition for someone coming from Haas.
Been researching mini mills for my garage and ended up here.
Great content!
As a lathe operator I believe FANUC to be the Cadillac of controls..... I've run conversational lathes but FANUC is hands down going to give you so many more capabilities...... Dumming down does nothing for the tradesman. I worked in job shops where the only constant is change and you are switching from chucks to collets to soft jaws all the time dependent on need, not just 3 or 4 of the same parts over and over. Big difference when a company makes their own product as opposed to parts for everybody's products. The biggest problem is moving from machines built by different manufacturers that customized the controls. FANUC gets it they are the standard go with whats best and don't try to tweak it!!! FANUC is what you learn when you learn g code. All you tv machinists crack me up. You Saunders and Grismo are definitely entertaining though.
Watch TITAN, he runs everybody's parts to crazy tolerances!!!!
Keep up the good work and I expect to purchase one of your vaccuum chucks soon.
I recently bought a Haas ST15 Lathe with the NGC it is a good machine but the control is not so great, too many items displayed on the screen, not intuitive. If you plan on using the chuck that comes with the lathe don't buy the tool setter, The chuck has to indexed in the correct orientation or it interferes with the top jaws. The spacing on the turret is very tight if you have a drill next to a turning tool the drill can not extend behind the jaws or it will hit the chuck. My solution was to remove the chuck and install a Hardinge QT65 collet chuck. the Royal was almost 2K more expensive the lathe comes with the auto door whether you want it or not. that is a real time killer turn it off with setting 131.Every Haas lathe I have ever bought came with a air pressure regulator and grease gun for the chuck this one did not. I wish the classic control was an option. I don't know if I will ever buy another machine with the NGC it is really that bad.
@Metal Dawg Did you have any problems with belt noise mine was over 90dB
Our company just bought a st20 w/ngc and it was a step back compared to classic control. No way to adjust for taper other than to write program fo suite. Many other gripes but we got so make it work lol
I had doosan lathe and Haas. The truth is Doosan does make a good lathe but the reason why my shop turned into all Haas is because of the control, service, but definitely the support is #1 on the Haas side.
Fanuc controls are really for production shops. I love my mazaks for their ease of programming and setup. I've ran many haas and other fanuc based machines and will really hate the day I ever have to go back to a lathe with a fanuc control. Odd fact, one shop had a doosan & daewoo branded machine that was supposedly a 1 of 100 machine branded like that.
Hass lathes suck but they make decent mills. Doosan is the way to go if you can afford them. Better built and less trouble overall.
Buy an okuma, same price as a haas or dosaan with the same options and way better than both.
I run the lsy 220 and it's great. The best thing about Doosan its super user friendly . Doosan is a great machine. I have ran 2 axis Doosan puma 400b and currently run two 220 lynx and a Mitsubishi gear hobber but Doosan is a great machine. You should check out the Doosan mx2100 with a mill head, so it is a mill turn with its own mill head. Very nice machine
I want look
DMGMORI VS MAZAK
A comment about the QC collets from Royal Products. I'm not a fan of them. First off, they are very expensive. A QC-65 is about $300 each. Secondly, is the range specifications, if you need 1" your buying .968-1.032.
Thirdly, they tend to not hold up and get damaged easily and you can't rebore them. For something that is supposed to be hardened, I'm disappointed.
I have worked with both brands of machine's. And I find that the Doosan is a way better lathe then what Haas has to offer. But I also find that Haas makes a great VMC. Now this comparison is not even comparable. I feel the Haas is a step below Doosan. I feel that Doosan is a far better quality built machine. And it's not fair to Haas to be compared to Doosan. Doosan is on a whole different level than Haas. Haas I feel is a "C" level product. Doosan is a "B" level product. They both are on different teirs of machine's. Now that being said I think anyone looking for a Mill or Lathe should check out both brands. They both make good machine's. Just one is on a higher tier.
I know nothing about this stuff. Ended up down a rabbit hole and enjoy learning. Who is #1?
A dealer in Southern California explained to me ( HAAS is a junk machine but we sell the shit out of them ) only entry level shops go the rout Of a HAAS . A 10 year old top shelf Japanese machine is a much better tool hands down just investigate what HAAS uses to manufacture there castings , older Hitachi seiki . Nothing beats a Japanese machine made in Korea , Daewoo Doosan # 1 if it weren't for the OC choppers show
They would still be a unknown to viewers who have never been in a machine shop. And all the big guys on tv got them for free . Nothing like millions of want to be's that dream of a HASS in there garage , if you give me one I'll sell it and buy the real deal . 15 YO Daewoo 230 MSC & 40x20x24 4 axis Daewoo Diamond series VMC and still holding 2 : 10th's full stroke .Those who know know , you love HASS not a problem every body does it
There way.
I too clocked the Hitachi Seiki gantry mill in one of Haas' promotional vids i think. We have a Hitachi VM40 and a variety of their lathes. We also have Haas' Ranging from about 20 years old to brand spanking new. None of them compare to the Seikis. They just don't, the Seikis are more rigid, smoother, and hold size far better, and they're OLDER MACHINES. Haas has their place and that's for mom'n'pop shops and startups. Take a look at any real production shop and you will see many machines but not a Haas unless it isn't a very finicky part. Granted, Haas' VMCs are sufficient for most simple jobs but their lathes are a joke. If you need more proof, even TITAN GILROY switched to DMG and he's been pushing them more and more (granted, he's likely in their pocket, but i'm sure he was with Haas too)
I don't think you made this with shit. But the quality of its material is lower.
Here in Mexico it is very easy to find second-hand haas machines. even models with only 1 year old.
however it is very difficult to find second-hand doosan machines (or japanese brands). Why? Why do companies sell their haas machines but don't doosan them? why?
Well... For me, HAAS seems pretty much outdated and basic for the reason, that they are making Lathes with only 12-position turrets, while Doosan is also making lathes with 5-axis head, and 80+ position tool magazine. Speaking of controls - HAAS, by now, has updated their controls to a bit more modern Windows XP style look, getting rid of that "poke the eye" light blue interface. Moving to Doosan - if you are not a big fan of Fanuc controls, you can always order a machine with Siemens controls. However, Fanuc has updated their controls to more fresh looking iHMI interface by now, and that old 90's interface can be accessed only in a legacy mode. Also, Doosan really have their own controls, called Cufos. And, as I know, it's available worldwide, as it's listed in English language catalogue. Also, you can order a Doosan machine with Heidenhain controls, but - it seems, that it's availabale only for their Milling machines. Still, I assume, that in HAAS controls you have to write a program by hand, or use a CAD/CAM software to generate a program, while Fanuc controls in our 2013 Doosan lathes have so called Manual Guide mode set by default, which allows us to create and edit any cycle in a window, and also draw a shape for solids of revolution.
Thank you for the info. All good points! Tell Mr. Ellison I said hello.
I worked on a Haas for some time but previously I ran a machine with Siemens 840d. I clearly see why a lot of people love the Haas control because of "ease of use": you only need cursor arrows and numpad! Training from Haas was done in two days but the week after I felt slow because you have to press ten keys to do anything. And you are stuck there for the rest of your life.
On the other hand, training for Siemens was four days, including programming at the machine (Haas calls it VPS). The Monday after it was like being a fish out of water but in a week everything was so fast and easy!
I am 23 year old, and understand that a veteran machinist with 20 years on a Haas may fear the change, but in my opinion the different control is not an excuse to keep buying the same machine. In fact, many of those who say that Haas is such a good control never learnt any other control! Is it correct?
Anyway, I can't talk about Fanuc but I hear good things for a pure production environment, because of it's reliability.
Jay learn that fanuc control ASAP and report back please! :)
I'm more focused on running the company, not the machine. I'll pass on learning the Fanuc. Keep watching for our next machine which is coming with a touch screen!
@@PiersonWorkholding For me that would be a deal killer, i can't stand touch screens. My hands are calloused and most touch screens do not work well for me. Nothing is more annoying than pressing 9000 times to get something to select on a touch screen!!
@@bcbloc02 We have a Mazak HCN5000 with the SmoothG control...and I completely agree. I'm dying for a key pad. I'm so glad we program offline, because programming at the control would be a complete nightmare. I'm so worried about fat fingering an offset or deleting the wrong program. There have been more than a few occasions where I need to delete a couple programs and as I'm scrolling through the list, the program under my finger (that I don't want to delete) gets selected.
@@PiersonWorkholding I understand, work on whatever your time is best spent on.
About the new machine, good choice, my Siemens was touch screen, on a DMG with Celos. It is half touch and half physical buttons & keyboard. In this way the only buttons you have to use with touch screen are big and can not miss. Cursor arrows are physical so no scrolling nightmare.
By the way thanks for the reply
I´m from Germany and we have in our Shop like 18 Machines with Fanuc Controll .. and yeah .. They are all different. Its Horrible. Thats because the Machinist cant Work on other Machines. Its everytime like another Controll. The Only similiar thing are the G-Codes. M-Codes are different because it depends on the Manufacturer of the Machine.
We are only Programming in our Shop by Hand . No Cam System :(
I'm now working on a 'new' HAAS ST30Y .. don't know if we just got a dud machine but man what a disappointment! Seems Haas is winning the Internet marketing game though, and their salesman in this area is way better than their tech guys (some are clue-less on lathes). Main spindle sounds horrible (slight 'shake/vibration' at half max revs, I have never taken it close to max - 3500 - cos it just sounds horrible), C-axis motor sounds worse and got a thump thump as it rotates which you can clearly feel if you put your hand on it, the machine uses so much air the (new) compressor just about runs continuously, the tailstock is just about useless - tailstock on our manual Colchester is way more rigid, live tools can hardly manage a 16mm HSS drill (and only 6000rpm, and a low duty cycle at that speed). I had to modify the bar-feeder to get it to work properly etc. My theory - highly paid white collar guys, and cheap labour to build the machines. And my boss is a young, 'nice guy' so no one particularly bothered to fix the sh#
Try Siemens controle for a new doosan, it's much better and simpler. Of even better. Try a Litz, you will never talk over doosan again.
Tenths of thousandths, presumably. That's impressive.
My dream is to open a CNC company
does the haas control has cycles like heidenhain?
Canned cycles? Yes.
@@PiersonWorkholding ok, thank you for your response!
Apples to oranges here.
I personally think Haas controls are the worst of the bunch. The buttons are all the same size and too close together. Machine functions are not divided from the rest of the buttons. And the feed override drives me nuts! I think okuma or hurco has the best control on the market.
Doosan: an exquisite cheeseburger on the menu with an expertly crafted ensemble of fine ingredients designed to compliment each-other.
Haas: I'll take a none pizza with left beef
Hobby machinist upgrading to a real mill: Can I get uhhhhhhhhhh BONELESS PIZZA wit a 2 liter of coke
I heard last week Ganesh closed. We weren't impressed with ours, compared to the citizens we also have.
@@EpicBaitMolds I guess they are still making parts for existing machines and have plans to acquire funding to continue making machines. We were told by our rep they closed, but I guess that is not the case, yet, atleast.
Doosan 4 lyfe boi
Any other brand is better than a haas. Go with a Mori seiki or Okuma
And any other comment is better than this one ;-)
Puma 240 awesome
Haas +/-00004
MAKINO for Mills, MAZAK fo lathes...😀
Beer + keyboard = your comment. 0:45
LOL.... I like your videos btw, and great products you have there, also the LEAN manufacturing in the shop 😆
Hurco and mazak killer set up!
DOOSAN over Hass every day of the week year month decade century etc etc etc you can see where I’m going with this 😂
DOOSAN, HAAS neeeee...we use Bahmuller.
I am in the market for a new VMC. I started with 2 used haas machines from the 90's. 1994 Haas VF0 and 1999 Haas Vf0e. They both have made me money, especially when you consider what I paid for the machines. I have embraced the idea of bootstrapping and never considered financing. I am at the point now where I'm ready and believe I can truly afford the monthly payment for a doosan. The first machine I have is costing money in maintaining it and it lacks features that I really need. I am between a doosan dnm4500 and a haas vf2ss. With all the options on the haas and the options I want on the doosan, the doosan is actually cheaper. Very weird. The doosan machine is an extra 3500 pounds. It's also just built better. No disrespect to haas. I do not think their build quality is as what it previously was, and they skimp out on so many little things that I would gladly pay an extra few thousand bucks for in the price. I do agree though I love how simple and user friendly a haas control is compared to fanuc. That is my biggest downside to the doosan. I used the exact machine I am looking to buy and it seems ok. Definitely a con. Also, like someone else said, someone needs to shake fanuc and tell them "hey its 2019" we should be able to have 1GB memory. STANDARD. Don't give me the stability bullshit. It can be done. The doosan "upgraded memory" is 2mb. The rennishaw macros also eat into that a little bit too. Yeah you can DNC from a compact flash card, but I don't want to do that in a job shop environment. my 1994 haas has 8mb. Come on.
I'm in a similar spot. Started by buying a 1996 Bridgeport Torq Cut VMC for $7k cash. Used it long enough to where I feel it was holding me back and financing a new Haas wasn't that scary anymore. I have a VF4SS coming. Almost went Doosan. I don't think I would have regretted either. Doosan could probably have won my business by doing a better job with pricing transparency and getting me excited about their brand. Haas has seemingly endless pits of videos and web copy you can get absorbed in if you're thinking about buying, but Doosan leaves a lot to your imagination. And my salesman wasn't too responsive. When I saw the picture of the Doosan casting I almost bought it. The damn thing is a pyramid.
@@cobraframebuilding Ah the old torq cut. That was the first CNC i ever operated/ programmed in college. I knew literally nothing back then. Funny how similar that story is. I paid about the same for my first haas. Cash. The second machine I borrowed some money from a relative (have paid most of it back already). The monthly payment for a new machine doesn't scare me as much any more which is nice. I do love haas' online presence. I always tell people "they do a lot of things right." They are good machines and it is nice (like Jay said in the video) that you can add exactly which features that you need and not pay for more or less. My issue is with all the features that I want the doosan is literally basically the same price for a much beefier machine. If haas was $30,000 less, it would be an absolute no brainer.
Interesting thoughts. I can't argue the Fanuc control is outdated. Fanuc isn't releasing the B-Series control to Doosan for mass release yet, either. We don't have memory issues, but our programs are pretty simple. We have many Haas machines and just bought 2 DNM 750L's about a year ago. They're pretty bulletproof. We almost went with some VF7's but we didn't want to deal with reliability issues in an automated cell. The Doosans we bought were considerably more than a VF7. But for us, the Fanuc control can talk to our PLC well via ethernet IP, which is what put us over the edge. The chip removal is much better on the Doosan, the doors are better quality. The spindle is better/tougher. As mentioned, the casting is beefy. We were pleasantly surprised that we could turn on a roughing setting that makes the servos sacrifice accuracy for speed, which for what we were doing meant that we could interpolate holes extremely fast! The Doosan does this job with much faster cycle times than our Haas machines could ever do, just from a mechanical/electrical/control standpoint. Our service guys are great, BTW. The only thing that I would like to improve on these machines is the way that coolant is managed. If you have the flood coolant, flush coolant and shower coolant pumps on (or 2 of the 3), the tank runs out of coolant because most of it is in the mill falling back to the the tank. We have a proposal in for another 750 right now instead of a VF6SS. For us, the difference in productivity and reliability is worth the extra cost.
Doosan all the way I have both in my shop and HAAS is junk
Both machines are kinda cheap. Buy a damn Okuma and be done with it!
First of all, the Doosan program of machines are way bigger than Haas. pls google and look into www.doosanmachinetools.com/en/main/index.do, secondly Haas is not very big in Europe, and they are known as an cheap machine to buy, Haas is not a competitour to Doosan in Asia or in Europe but of course in the USA where its made, this has nothing to do with quality but politics.
Doosan lathe is extremely good, but i think Haas has better mills
Best of all: Hermle
It's a lathe...canned cycles are poor man's conversational. Programming doesn't get exciting/complicated until you start doing c-axis & live tooling, multi-axis, etc.
Worked both, no difference in terms of machining but, I think you get more bang for your buck with a Haas.
Any machine if you abuse it will be problematic.
I don't know if Haas is the same now but dry run on a doosan is dangerous, I tell all my employees to never use it!!!
okuma is better than the both of them
Dude, don't be THAT guy. Did you catch 0:40?
Well... If we are speaking about luxury brands - I've always admired DMG Mori.
Haas is as weak as water
I 100% disagree about fanuc control. It's a personal opinion but I find it to be awesome
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