ARE WE INFLUENCERZ YET??? Follow-Up Notes (Updated 02/04/2022): 1. AMINOS: The building blocks of collagen are NONessential amino acids, meaning your body can produce them without having to ingest them. This is different from essential amino acids, which you must obtain through diet. 2. REGULATION: At 18:55, supplements technically ARE regulated by the FDA, just not to the stringent level we'd like to see. From the FDA's website: "Dietary supplements are regulated by the FDA as food, not as drugs. However, many dietary supplements contain ingredients that have strong biological effects which may conflict with a medicine you are taking or a medical condition you may have. Products containing hidden drugs are also sometimes falsely marketed as dietary supplements, putting consumers at even greater risk. For these reasons, it is important to consult with a health care professional before using any dietary supplement." 3. GNARLY/ZINC: At 19:17, we quote an article by Nutrition for Climbers that points out Gnarly Collagen Pro contains added zinc and that prolonged zinc supplementation could cause several issues, including copper deficiency, anemia, and interactions with medications. Gnarly claims that, because their Collagen Pro supplements also contain copper, the copper deficiency issue is negated. 4. FORMS: Collagen supplements can take multiple forms. “Hydrolyzed” collagen or collagen “peptides” means the collagen is already broken down into its constituent amino acids. This is different from other sources of collagen like gelatin (the stuff that’s in gummy bears, jello, and TONS of other foods), in which the collagen structure is still “intact.” As far as we can tell, more research is needed to determine if one delivery method is superior to the other.
From a researcher as myself I can only say I love you. Your critical judgment was over the top. Love the cost-benefit analysis argument, love the analyses of pros and cons, how much you talked about statistical power, conflict of interest, even the final comment on the true effect size. Couldn't be better, really. I'm so happy to see someone do some real scientific dibate
As someone who normally is very well researched, I feel a little bit ashamed that I fell prey to the "influencer said it" or "I saw a video on it" style of pitch. Now granted, what's weird is I've researched these things for hours, feeling confident in my collagen supplementation and recovery training methods. I'm honestly really glad you released this video, as its given me an alternative critical lens to view this stuff through. The costs aren't trivial for me, so this might have saved me quite a bit of money in the long run. Still not sure how I feel about it, but I'm glad I have some proper dissonance in my brain about it. Keep being goofy, keep rapping, and keep helping climbers. You're a true gift to the climbing community ❤️
Get a baseline education in biology before "researching supplementation". Supplementation is a marketing scam, pure and simple. For thousands of years we evolved just fine in a world where we could only eat a few select things. Now we live in a world where we can eat near anything and NOW we're selling nutrient deficiency to people? I don't buy it, and neither would anyone that has a basic biology education. Learn actual biology and actual nutrition. Don't "research supplements". There's nothing to research.
Love it hoop! Sifting through research may not be the sexiest thing that gets you the most views, however there are people out there who value what you do. Thanks for taking the time to make informed videos!
Additional qualitative sample size of 1: I took up collagen supplementing 6 or so months ago to see if it would help my fingers recover faster (as a 30 something year old - finger recovery is what usually holds me back from climbing more than 3 times per week). I haven't noticed any improvement (not even placebo sadly)! 'Why are you still taking them after 6 months' I hear you ask... optimistic purchase of a buy 2 get 1 free offer....
But the threshold of ‘noticing benefit’ is pretty high, right. If you were receiving a 1% benefit in collagen synthesis/repair then you probably wouldn’t ‘feel’ anything. Could still be worth doing. It’s not that expensive
Gnarly here. Thanks for this well-researched and entertaining review on collagen. We agree there’s more research to be done and we have personally been waiting for studies controlling for protein intake between study groups and/or including a protein dosage matched control group. As a correction, Gnarly Collagen Pro contains Vitamin C, zinc AND copper. Zinc and copper are included in Gnarly Collagen Pro because both micronutrients stimulate collagen production but also because, as you pointed out, taking large amounts of zinc without a balance of copper may cause copper deficiency. Also - supplements are regulated by the FDA. That being said, they may not be well regulated and there are definitely companies that don’t follow those regulations. It’s for these reasons that Gnarly products are both NSF and NSF for sport certified; NSF is a third-party quality certification group that tests products both annually and on a lot by lot basis for label claims and contaminants like microbes, heavy metals, pesticides, and all substances on the WADA banned substances list.
Unrelated to climbing, I started a regiment of a daily multivitamin, fish oil, vitamin C gummies, turmeric, collagen with biotin, and aspirin for my Achilles Tendonopathy. I would take them before bed, after a workout; usually walking about 2.5 mile daily with 2 upper body strength training and 20 minute interval lower body session which is stair climbing, or elliptical. My goal was to target inflammation with the supplements. I was totally skeptical that it would make any difference, as I had not had any real success with with supplement for recovery or rehab. So, I was very surprised when my Achilles Tendon was not sore in the morning, at all. When I would wake up there was no tightness or soreness unless I pushed to the range of the joint’s mobility. I even noticed a marked change when I wasn’t using anything. I cannot claim it is any one of the bank of supplements that is helping. Or if any of these are synergistically interacting. I will claim that I found something that works for me. It’s really the only time I can claim anything specifically helped my training and recovery, besides adding a larger volume of HR Zone 2 training (walking)
Incredible video. Ill stop researching collagen now. This told me everything i need to know about what we know about collagen currently! Maybe Ill revisit this matter in a couple of years!
This is something I've really been interested in since I started climbing. In general, climbing takes a huge toll on tissues such as tendons and ligaments which heal a lot slower than muscle or skin. I have been working out and taking care of my nutrition for a long time so naturally, I take notice to recovery time. And the soreness in my tendons and ligaments did NOT heal like anything I was used to, so I tried a few different things. In my personal experience, tendons and ligaments do heal better if you can get access to enough gelatin and collagen in your diet. As a Korean this isn't really an issue because there are dishes specifically made of cow knee joints etc. One issue is that many climbers kinda veer away from consuming too much meat as a way of watching their weight, and I would assume that the access to foods containing animal joints is not universal. In these cases I do feel that collagen supplementation may help. Fish based collegen didn't really affect my recovery but cow collagens (especially type I) cut the recovery time on my finger pulley and collateral ligaments by about 30~50% and relieved tendon pain in my forearms. Of course this isn't a controlled study and I didn't injure my ligaments/tendons in the exact same manner and extent, eaten the exact same diet etc. in order to see the results. But I did have an abundance of minor injuries and it did take less time to feel comfortable to get back on the wall.
Thanks for the unique anecdote! Always fun to hear people’s personal experiences with collagen. It would be interesting to see a study comparing the collagen intake of different cultures and if there’s any correlation to connective tissue health. -Emile
Holy crap, I was just looking up collagen studies on tendon reconstruction for my therapeutic interventions class a couple days ago, thanks for the concise summaries! I thought the recommendations you suggested were spot on for what we know. I specifically was stripping away the (Baar, 2017) Emil study, even though I quite liked the in-vitro study, it is still just in-vitro and not terribly applicable. Personally in the future, I have a feeling that collagen studies will show minimal impact on people who already have a well-rounded nutrient-rich diet, especially ones that don't discount animal products (where collagen and such are already found). For my personal interest, I am still skeptical about collagen in my own diet as a means to feel any extra collagen synthesis in my training. However, because curiosity killed the cat, I will try to find recommendations from my local dietician for some safe collagen supplements. Being a college student who cooks, I find myself eating well, but I do go through slumps of more poor nutrition when the semester gets tough. Maybe I'll find some miracle when taking the stuff an hour before my specific training. As I am in the first cycle of my training program it would be really cool to see any benefit, but again, there will most likely be no difference seen.
Let us know if you try it out and notice any changes! Luckily the risks are generally quite low so it can be quite fun to experiment with. And hopefully we’ll get some comprehensive, high-quality research on collagen in the near future. Human nutrition studies are so hard though :(
You seem to already know the answer to your question. Save your money to get blood work and hire a dietician. The food you eat matters and you can tailor it to both taste good and nourish you. Supplementation is a scam. All of it. Not just collagen.
I avoided watching your videos for a while because they seemed a little click-bait-y. But I'm 100% on board now. I have a hard science background and it makes me very very happy to see someone rigorously analyzing all the different programs and hype. Healthy skepticism is the only rational approach since there is so little definitive research. Thanks!
I really appreciate the emphasis on taking collagen prior to physical activity as opposed to after. Coming from the bodybuilding world this is definitely a little bit different and I appreciate the info. Well I continue to take collagen out of habit? Probably. Question is when are you gonna do the video breakdown on pentosan polysulfate as a climbing ped :).
Great video - as usual. I took up climbing kind of late in life - 56 years old. (I've worked my way up to "occasionally" sending 5.11d, typically as a day project - not bad for a noobie old guy!) I've always been athletic, but for some reason never thought about climbing until "the kids" took my Wife and I when we visited for Thanksgiving one year. We were hooked and kicked the regular gym to the curb. My diet is really good (98% of the time), no prescriptions and we take a few vitamins, powdered collagen being one of them with vitamin C mixed into it. Can't say if it helps or not actually - so this article has been super helpful in my quest to climb until I'm 100! BTW - I've used your research and suggestions for various injuries (pulleys tendons, extensor tendons etc.. warm up before climbing, cool down after) with great success. Thanks for what you do for the climbing community - keep it up!
Thanks for the comment Scott! Love to hear how you're staying healthy and climbing great! That's fantastic. Cool that you got into the sport later on as well. Keep up the good work and thanks for the support!
Might be worth mixing in a bit of whey and see if you notice anything. Fairly cheap, would make sense for it to be more effective (not the same as a guarantee of course). Additionally, as we get older, our bodies become less sensitive to leucine, so somewhat larger protein doses are needed to stimulate protein syntheses.
@@danielbeall7725 Thanks for your thoughts..... We do a smoothie for breakfast every weekday morning with protein powder mixed in, mostly kale, spinach, carrot and other good stuff with a little fruit to mix it up day to day.(I cook on the weekends and it's typical breakfast "stuff" like omelets, pancakes, potatoes etc.). Maybe we can "up the dose" of protein for a while to see if it has any affect.
Thanks for the video! This is a somewhat sensitive topic. I’ve been taking PhysiVantage super charged collagen for a couple years now based off the info Eric Horst podcast. Personally I’ve noticed differences. I’m 40 & have been climbing for 12 years; and as I’ve gotten older my joints would ache since taking SC they no longer ache. Also, I’ve had a few finger injuries over the years, Im actually dealing with some tendon strains right now; my PT said would be about a 3 month healing period, but it’s been a month and it feels pretty close to 100% better. I’ve noticed changes so I’m going to keep taking it. I feel it’s best to test it out on your own body if it works great, take it; if it doesn’t no biggie don’t take it. I’m hopeful there will be more research in the future!
Thanks for sharing! Awesome to hear that it has helped make you feel better. You're right and we agree! Definitely want more research, but making informed, individual decisions is best for now :)
Great video with excellent breakdown of the studies. In 30 years of climbing I’ve tried collagen numerous times, and never seen any positive effect (sadly), on my fingers or knees. Consuming eggs for breakfast on heavy days, along with some BCAA makes noticeable difference, even though I eat plenty of meat and veggie protein anyway. For me, It was good to see this in line with the conclusion of this video.
For my own bit of anecdotal evidence, I have been consistently taking 20g of collagen paired with vitamin C before every climbing session (3-4 days per week, 4hours per day) post getting multiple A2 strains. It has been just under 3 months and the pain in my fingers is completely gone.
How's your diet overall? Do you think the collagen supplements are simply filling a gap in your protein intake or are they potentially helping on top of a solid diet?
@@HoopersBeta hard to say, 90% of the food I eat is made at home. Generally I eat a protein with every meal and try to pair that with either fruits or vegetables. However, my speculation is that when we’re injured, specifically in collagen dependent areas, it makes sense to me that the body would demand more of that specific molecule/compound in order to repair itself. I know that for rehabilitation specifically tailored towards muscle repair, it’s recommended to increase your protein intake (specifically proteins with the amino leucine?). So I would like to assume the same is true for ligament based injuries as well. However, I am but a simple climber. I’m all talk and speculation 😅.
@@adambeauchamp4813 I assume that you only have a certain amount of money. Use it to hire a good dietician instead of buying supplements. Nature provides.
This was a long, well thought out, informative video that ultimately did not change my overall level of knowledge or plans moving forward. I will continue to supplement collagen before climbing-related activity for the chance there is a benefit. Thanks!
Sample size of one - my 50yr old body seems to be responding well to collagen supplement - but correlation is not causation. I take it more for injury prevention as joints/shoulders/pulleys seem to be less happy w intense bouldering. It would be great to have a vid on what practices and supplements you can do when you aren’t climbing that can prevent common injuries. I did the Emil hangboard routine and felt it was great at stretching things out and building a bit of resistive strength. The concept of attaining resistance is not well understood in climbers - but you know it when you ultimately gain it.
Glad that it seems to have had a positive effect for you! That's what it's about anyway, right? Testing things out, seeing how we feel as individuals, and then making decisions based on that to help us perform at our best.
Never found collagen research serious enough. At the end of the day, collagen is a relatively low quality protein with less amino acids than most other sources so why would you want to pay for that? I would consider it if they proved collagen specifically improved synthesis of final collagen in the body due to over abondance of the right amino acids but as you said, the research is far from reaching that conclusion and If I'm being cynical, I think comparing their products to sugar was on purpose, to show half decent results... I doubt collagen can beat egg or meat in a straight fight. It's like comparing eating to not eating, lol. "wow ! body can rebuild better with food intake!!!"
I had really good results drinking chicken bone broth and taking a vitamin c supplement with zinc after a finger injury. I would drink the bone broth and take vitamin c before doing a fingerboard routine for rehab. I felt like my fingers were the best they have been for awhile after doing this routine for a couple months. No way to know if it was the collagen though
I'm probably too late to the game for this to be seen - but first, I appreciate your approach to all things. I am a Research Statistician and a PT friend of mine sent me your channel after I had a lumbrical injury. Second, I don't think your concern with collagen v sugar is all that warranted. My understanding of these studies is that the collagen (or sugar) was purely supplemental and was meant to test if collagen itself was effective, not compare its effectiveness to other things. As in, if a person were to continue to eat exactly the same, would supplementing with collagen be beneficial? That seems like a worthwhile test as hopefully randomization in a large study would eliminate the variance of diet. However, I do completely agree with you that it would be important to know if the collagen supplement was beneficial because it was collagen, or if adding amino acids into the diet (via food or supplement) would be just as effective. I highlight this difference in study approach because my, albeit quick, survey of the literature on whey protein powder is that it is usually tested as a supplement to and not as a replacement for dietary protein. I will say, I personally don't plan to use collagen supplement products. It appears that for overall health, getting nutrients from whole foods is better (or at least as good) as any sort of supplementation. I would rather make sure I am eating adequate protein than buying a collagen supplement for the reasons you mentioned at the beginning - it all gets broken down to the same building blocks anyway. One thing I have considered doing, both because it is delicious and just in case it makes a difference, is making homemade bone broth and drinking that more regularly. Keep up the great videos!
Hi Jonathan, well said on both sides! Thanks for commenting and we're happy you found the channel! I understand your points and agree in the sense that it is not inherently bad what they did. I also like your idea of having a much larger study to help eliminate the diet variance factor. Good idea! The bigger overall issue for me is just that many of these collagen companies are using this research as a gold standard that their product is effective and should be used routinely. When, as you accurately stated, it is important to know if it is actually just because of the collagen, or just having more amino's / protein in their diet. Interesting idea on the bone broth, as well! I've never personally found any that I thought to be delicious hah! But, I haven't tried that many out there (and some of the better brands are seemingly quite expensive!). Anyway, thanks again for commenting!
The one thing I can definitely notice when supplementing collagen is the Increase of rate of hair and nail growth, so my idea is that at the very least it probably helps speed the recovery of the skin on my hands. Skin recovery times can definitely limit training, so maybe if only for the skin healing, is is worth the relatively low cost and low/no side effect profile. Also, every time I see someone recommend against any form of protein supplementation, I think it is worth noting that almost all food sources that contain equivalent protein quantities are more expensive than a protein supplement, and, if there are no negative side effects associated with the supplement, than what is really the downside? One last point would be that any form of protein supplementation will likely make it easier to increase one's protein/overall calorie intake ratio, which should improve body composition that is favorable to any uphill sports that benefit from an ideal strength to weight ratio. The high glycine levels in collagen may also have favorable effects aside from physical recovery such as better sleep and balancing neurotransmitters, but this is probably subjective and complex.
Great video as always! :D I'd love to see a video about climbers with varies degrees of flat feet, I haven't have it professionally checked but from a few tests I believe I have some degree of it so I really want to learn more about it. For the video it can include its effect to climbing(skill, technique and risk etc), including exercises/ tips that might be useful for those with flat feet and maybe rudimentary identification method to test at home !
@@danielbeall7725 I’m quite a beginner myself so I’d say I can’t tell the difference, there’s one thing I’m not sure if there’s a connection is that if I’m tipping toe hard with my heel higher I could some times get a cramp in the arch area. Perhaps it’s just my over all untrained weak leg/feet that’s why I want to learn more about it :3
There are products marketed as vegan collagen supplements, but on closer examination, they just contain nutrients that apparently support collagen production in the body. It does surprise me that there aren't synthetic collagen supplements, given how many nutrients we regularly synthesise (e.g. taurine in cat food, rennet in cheese). Why have we not started synthesising collagen?
I think vegan collagen does exist, or at least there are claims that it exists in some skincare products. This is not to be confused with "vegan collagen boosting" products (which it sounds like you're describing). For a couple examples, Algenist and Pacifica claim to have engineered a molecularly structural equivalent from plant sources. There's also an article from 2005 that discusses collagen/gelatin production from yeast and bacteria ("Recombinant microbial systems for the production of human collagen and gelatin"). I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on any of this myself, and I don't know which types of collagen these are supposed to produce. But at least as far as skincare goes, it's possible that there may be options. I'm not aware of anything like this in the form of an oral supplement though; it's surprising to me as well.
I haven't look into vegan collagen alternatives, but if I had to guess I'd say maybe the manufacturers don't think it's worth the investment? Like, why spend all that money on R&D when you could sell regular old collagen with huge profit margins? Idk - Emile
@@zetorux Interesting, thanks for sharing! My search said there wasn't any, but this makes some sense as many synthetic biological products are made from yeast.
@@HoopersBeta That makes sense to me, but I wonder what the trigger point was to start using synthetic rennet in most cheese, and why that hasn't happened with collagen.
Thank you so much for that video... i stopped counting how often i had precisely this discussion with friends... there is no evidence that a collagen supplement is any better than any other protein supplement or just good and healthy food.
Collagen sups made all the difference in my case. For 4 years my finger joints had been burning / inflamed after climbing sessions. Usually started 12 to 24 hours after, and could last up to 2 days. Tried everything: rollers, massage, antogonist flexor training, careful warmup & cool down, etc. I even designed morpho-adaptive fingerboards to train w all open fingers (on blogger: _Morpho adaptive Crimp Board for finger training & climbing_ ) Nothing made a dent. Until collagen sups (from physivantage). 2 weeks later it was mostly gone. That was a completely unexpected surprise. Fingers are now sore after a hard session but no longer burning like hell the next day. I went vegetarian a couple of years before that time, and was not paying much attention to my diet. Bet I was not getting enough of the proteins / amino acids necessary for the body to rebuild collagen in my joints. Wish I had known that earlier, a couple of joints never fully recovered (sometimes stuck open or clicking)...
After looking at all those studies that only looked at Collagen supplementation vs placebo / sugar, I really wish those studies contained a third group of participants that supplemented with a protein /whey. It would have been interesting to see if whey supplementation, with all those precious amino acids, would have maximized collagen synthesis on its own
The cynic in me thinks it's very likely they did. When there's a salable product involved, the science we don't see published is sometimes as telling as what they do.
The other one that seems to be conspicuously missing (unless I’m remembering badly 😬) Is that they don’t test collagen only or exercise only. All in all, rather weak controls and a tiny sample size. One group having better results purely from statistical randomness isn’t all that unlikely when you have ~ 2 people per group…
I am super interested in the research. I started collagen supplements after ANOTHER major finger injury, and as an over 35 climber and 20 years of injuries stacking up, I was ready to try anything. Anecdotally, my recovery has been better, and notable "tweaks" are at an all-time low. At this point, I'm comfortable paying for the potential placebo. Side note, Orgain brand is half the price of the climber-centric Physivantage brand for the same product, and I can get it almost anywhere.
Another issue with drawing conclusions from multiple small studies. The negative studies generally get left out. As a former researcher with a handful of studies which had negative results, I can confidently say that they frequently don't get published or publish somewhere very obscure and do not get entered into searches. There may be dozens or hundreds of studies on this topic with inconclusive findings and we'd never know.
Excellent point! Thanks for sharing that insight. That's definitely a huge problem we face. Studies with uninteresting or insignificant findings don't get attention / publication but are still clearly important.
@@HoopersBeta The other quality often attributed to Collagen supplementation is increased skin recovery after damage. Is there anything pointing that way in the research? I climb on Gritstone a lot, and it really wears the tips down. Faster turnover at the tips would be enough reason for me to supplement tbh.
Nice video! Dave Macleod has a similar take on collagen. One thing he points out is that one of these studies had, as an exclusion criteria, anyone who had supplemented with protein in the past 6 months. A curious thing, if what you really wanted to know is whether collagen could benefit people who are already getting adequate amounts of a variety of amino acids (including glycine and proline), and not just whether it could help people who are protein deficient
I was surprised how inexpensive it is, and may take it as a pre-cautionary thing. Or drink more bone broth and eat more pork rinds, although collagen supplements are cheaper than both!
I hope there is some more research in the future! Anecdote: I started taking collagen along with nutrient supplements with an already overall balanced diet (good protein, good amount of fruits and veggies) and I feel like recovery after a hard session does feel faster than with solely a balanced diet. Could be placebo but who knows until more studies are done LOL. Great video!
how much more insider trading between supplement companies and "researchers" do we need to see to know that supplementation gives you a placebo effect at best?
Thoughts on the "Stress, Relaxation and Targeted Nutrition To Treat Patellar Tendinopathy." (2018) case study from the Journal of Sport, Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism?
I am familiar with that one (but haven't done a full break down on it yet!) but since it was going off of research from Baar and that crew I figured better to analyze the source (the Baar research) in more detail instead. Good question and I'll have to dig into that one soon!
Thank you very to make this video, I have tennis elbow and my elbow tendons time to time is sensitive, and is a long time I'm searching methods to never have pain in that area and after watching this video I think the best way is to "train" that are regularly and eat well, thanks to clear my mind
Would band/pull resistance training help for that (think opposite of a curl)? I feel like working/strengthening the tissues the opposite direction maybe could help.
Very big misunderstanding at 7:20 - they use a sugar placebo as a 'control'. The point is it has no effect, other than the placebo effect. If they used eggs, it would have a real effect (beyond a placebo), and the relative measurement between eggs and a collagen supplement would be less meaningful. Eggs would not be a placebo, and they would remove the necessary baseline to perform the measurement against. With the placebo control, someone can repeat the study comparing eggs against a placebo, and a separate study by an independent group of researchers could compare meat against a palcebo, and all these relative measurements (against a thing and a placebo) could be reviewed and compared to one another in a meta review (by completely different researchers again). So the control is essential for research and is fundamental when reading and intrepreting this sort of research. There are studies comparing the effects of testosterone vs a sugar placebo. No one thinks sugar is going to do what testosterone does. But the study particpants need to think they are receiving testosterone so they get the placebo effect, and the comparison between the control and the test group can be measured, recorded and compared. I get including eggs would have given us (climbers) a more useful comparison for practical application, but its just not a valid criticism of the study. Sample size of 8 is, but try and get money to do colllagen synthesis research on hundreds of people...
Great video. The studies I personally wanna see are some where the placebo is an avocado, chickpeas or something like that. Trying to fix dietary problems with specific supplements won't help in the long run. And saying that a supplement "works" just because it's better than eating nothing or shit-food is just a fallacy.
I’ve been taking physivantage since straining my A2 and I personally don’t believe it made much difference to my healing but honestly I can’t be sure either way. I’ll probably not bother getting it again once I’ve finished the pack. I do eat a high protein/meat diet already though so maybe the extra collagen doesn’t make much difference to me.
Adding to your point near the end, instead of collagen, try gelatin which has the same amino acids. Add a scoop to your instant ramen broth (or soup, whatever) to give it some of that texture that real rich bone broth has. It's much cheaper too since you can get it as a food ingredient rather than a fact supplement which is marked up hard
Thanks for this video! About a year ago, I was trying to decide if I should take collagen and I read that it does not contain all nine essential amino acids. That was enough for me to decide I'll just eat other sources of protein. A dozen eggs is cheaper. I appreciate you pointing out how the control groups were obviously going to show that collagen is beneficial in the studies. Yeah, eating literally any source of protein in any amount is better than sugar or nothing. It reminds me of how I can't find research about red meat that doesn't include hot dogs and salami. Love the videos. Thank you for all your hard work.
It's totally wild that none of the studies did a direct comparison with equivalent (non collagen sourced) protein supplementation. It seems to me this would be the most important point, if the collagen is actually doing something unique, something that equivalent food types don't do. Given what we know about digestion it almost seems like we're assuming that there's some unknown, beneficial ingredient in collagen specifically that makes it worth taking.
Another point I will make is that sugar will absolutely assist in exercise recovery both by repleting glycogen stores and by rapidly triggering protein synthesis by spiking insulin. (In response to the objections over sugar used as a placebo in the studies).
This video is extremly informative , extremly funny, well made and I totally agree they with all of your points, they could done the placebo with whey protein that enriched with vitamin C and zinc for example. Thank you, you have earned a permanent loyal subscriber.
Last time i injured my finger flexor and you made a video about it like a week later, now i orderd some collegen to help with the recovery and rebuilding for the first time ever and you make this. Perfect timing as always :D
About 99% of promising biomolecules that are indentified in vitro don't make it into significant in vivo studies, therefore I'd always be very careful with studies that show effects on the human body from an in vitro measurement... Thanks so much for this content, it's so time intensive to go through research and summarizing it like this is really great work!
Emil Abrahamsson DID NOT TAKE COLLAGEN during his month-long hangboarding experiment! I forgot where I read this (might have been in the YT comments), but I recall someone asking Emil what his collagen supplementation routine was. His reply was something to the effect of "I did not try to replicate that aspect of the study." In any case, I came across this as I was doing my own research trying to understand how his big strength gains were even possible (having just watched Hooper's response video here on this channel). For what it's worth, I think I found the answer: noob gains. Abrahamsson was already a campus board aficionado, but training on a hangboard was new to him. Most campus-board exercises are great for training your muscles to contract more rapidly (which means more power) but do not provide a very good stimulus for muscle growth. It's the opposite with the hangboard. And, although Emil was not following one of the standard forearm hypertrophy protocols (e.g. repeaters, pyramids) with his moving hangs, it is easily possible that he did enough to stimulate muscle growth.
Didn’t mean to imply that Emil took collagen. If that was what it sounded like then apologies! He used other parts of the study to make his hangboard program.
@@HoopersBeta I got that impression, so I just wanted to contribute my clarification of that point for the benefit of the discussion. Your in-depth analysis in the Emil video is actually what inspired me to investigate the facts for myself. Truth seeking can be contagious, you know. 😉 Lastly, just to be clear, I love what you're doing with this channel. Making the truth your priority as you do is a rare and special act of intellectual bravery at this point in time. Please, by all means, keep doing what you're doing! 😀
sample size in relation to effect size is what matters, not sample size alone. The VAS is a well validated tool in biomedical research to measure pain. Having said that; the overall conclusion that the role of collagen supplementation on tendon health and healing is still largely unknown. On the other hand, the risk-benefit ratio has nothing on the left side.
It bugs me that most of the research doesn't mention if the participants are already consuming a proper amount of protein. At the very least cataloging the participants average macros per day should be a requirement before even publishing results. The difference between someone consuming 30 grams of protein per day and then getting another 30 grams in collagen is huge compared to someone already consuming 180 grams of protein per day. Also, most studies in collagen never compare it to the most common and cheapest protein supplement: whey. I have a suspicion that just increasing your protein intake via any bioavailable protein would have the same effect as collagen supplementation.
Yep, you nailed it, I think. I bet most people get enough of the right proteins in their diet that collagen sups do not make a diff. In my case, vegetarian, I stupidly destroyed my finger joints over 4 years (burning, inflamed) before stumbling on cosups by chance. It all went away in a couple of weeks. Did not know better... So yep, sample of 1, but I suspect that analysing people's diet in these studies might be key to understand why it sometimes does / not make a diff.
As someone with a collateral ligament injury. I've been wondering if taking collagen would help with recovery. It seems like it could help, but there are so many other things that could make an even bigger difference.
True, there are many other variables to consider! Though, if you find a low cost collagen supplement solution (like plain old gelatin) it *could* be worth it -Emile
Collagen is just a marketing scheme supplement with no official clinical research backing to it. You’re better off eating food or taking supplements that promote collagen production
Would love to see the research repeated where collagen supplement is compared to protein shake + multivitamin. It's just a protein. We breaking down then re-build it. It can't be any better than a readily digested complete source of protein. ...and yeah... collagen supplement or a handful of gelatine based sweets??
Thank you for the very informative video! I have to admit that I did not read the articles myself... so my question would be: Since the 'control' groups got sugar as a placebo... did the collagen group take the collagen with sugar? From your description (saying it just tells us collagen is better than sugar) it seems that was not the case. Can this be counted as a real placebo? I'd say the taste of sugar is quite noticable and different than that of collagen. If the participants new the general topic of the study, they could easily guess which group they were in. Even if that was not the case, it holds the possibility that the placebo effects of a non-sweet substance differ from that of a sweet substance.
That's fair! there could be a flavor difference. I'm not sure exactly what they did to combat that, but perhaps the liquid they mixed it with was enough to dilute it so it wasn't a huge difference. Good point / question though!
I thought the assumption of proteins right before or after the workout was debunked. Different companies sell the same collagen at prizes completely different based on the market they are aiming for. In my experience i spent 17Euros for "Tendijoint Forte" 20 pills with 100mg collagen each for a total of 2000mg X 17Euros but it was meant to be assumed daily for the duration of 2 months max, 1 or 2 times a year. If i read correctly collagen from gnarly is 50$ for a total of 450mg of collagen. i'd rather take different specific integrators than these all in one with a bit of really low dosage of everything.
Love this scientific approach to supplements for climbers. Personally, I have been taken both collagen in supplement form and topical serum (retinol). I have been lean and athletic most time of my life and eat mostly healthy so can't tell if it is effective anecdotally. May be some placebo effect (*different than zero effect, research showed). I do notice my nail and hair are better after taking collagen supplements. What I would say is, even if it works, it is highly personal, e.g. is it effective, to what extend. Lastly I do notice a calming/anti-inflammation effects from magnesium post workout.
Collagen is roughly 1/3 glycine, and glycine is great for sleep quality. That may contribute to the recovery effects. I take it at night for this reason, I get about an hour and a half more out of each day with the same feeling of rest.
Dont stop at 100!! You have some of the most reliable info about Climbing fysiology out there. And in my opinion, the collagen science is a lot of crap. I would accept a study with 50 people and protein and aminoacids as placebo.
"studies should have large representative sample sizes, control groups, randomised assignments, objective measurements and double-blinded approach..." *SUBSCRIBE* This is the kind of content we need more of.
Thank you Dr. Hooper for this hilarious and analytical approach to collagen supplementation and the studies that they rely on for their claims of efficacy. I appreciate your argument as a consumer advocate, noting that these claims by supplement companies are not approved by the FDA, which implies there is not enough oversight. It's very hard to find any dietary supplement that makes an actual FDA-verified claim on its label. However, to say that these collagen supplement companies claim that collagen makes you a "better climber" seems a little bad faith, since none of these companies make this claim outright. As a climber in my mid-30's, I first started taking collagen supplements a year ago in response to some nagging PIP joint pain, often triggered by half-crimping. I started using grocery-store collagen supplements, and then went on to PhysiVantage collagen supplements. I took them an hour prior to a daily finger warm-up / rehabilitation routine designed by Eric Horst, which can be found in a video on his T4C channel. Consider my experience an N of 1, but I think there is something to the claims that type-2 collagen supplements, when they have the right components and are taken in addition to a healthy diet, sleep schedule, and timed an hour (which relates back to the blood serum study you mentioned in your video) prior to a finger warm-up regiment, may reduce joint pain, or perhaps rebuild damaged connective tissue, or strengthen tendons, sinew, or even prevent injury.
Also Dave MacLeod, elder statesman of the global climbing community and holder of a MSc. in both Nutrition and Physiology, has asserted similar preventative/rehab benefits from eating meats rich in collagen, i.e. beef tendon, fish skin, and other connective tissue. You made a great point that collagen studies aren't conclusive when it comes to the recovery benefits or strength building benefits that they assert on their labels. But assuming for the sake of argument that collagen does help prevent or rehabilitate joint injury or even tendon/ligament injuries, it seems there are two split camps as to which source climbers should get their collagen. Considering the consumer-advocacy argument you made, I think it's safe to say that if you really, really *want* to take extra collagen for climbing reasons, then you should try to prioritize collagen straight from the source, i.e. beef tendon, fish skin, etc. Unless you're vegetarian/ vegan and there's some kind of plant-based type-2 collagen, then maybe take those instead of supplements. I honestly don't know. I am not an expert at all. Just curious about your thoughts.
Indeed not for me, as I am against avoidable harm inflicted on animals (i.e. indeed I am "vegan"). But I really appreciate your systematic and scientific method approach to analyzing all these issues: ommited variables bias, samples issues, reverse causality, etc. As a vegan and pure-math trained-then-tyurned-economist who teaches university economics and statistical methods who happens to ASLO love rock climbing and wants to improve, your insights and proper approach are totally amazing. Keep it coming. Best regards.
Great video as always! The deep dive into the science is always very welcome. I was wondering if you knew anything about Glucosamine? I was experiencing really bad swelling and stiffness in my finger joints after climbing a while back, and have been taking joint care supplements for around 2 months now. Very minimal swelling/issues from climbing now! Wondering if you had any insight your end or if you might make a video on it. Cheers for the amazing content always.
@@HoopersBeta No problem! If it helps at all with ingredients, Ive been taking Seven Seas Joint Care Supplex. And I believe I was experiencing synovitis in my fingers. Looking forward to more of your content. 💪
Thanks. What I still don't understand is the difference between a separate collagen product and say, a regular protein powder that would contain the same amino acids + vitamin C (i.e Huel) ?
You mentioned a couple times how you dislike that the placebo is typically sugar in collagen experiments. Does it really matter? My assumption is that both groups use the treatment as a supplement and followed a regular diet otherwise. Therefore the effects of any other diet related effects are basically controlled for. Or am I not seeing something? Fantastic video otherwise!!
Perhaps Collagen vs Whey or another source of amino acids may have achieved insignificant results? Industry funded researchers do not have to publish such results.
Thanks for commenting! Glad you enjoyed the video overall! The problem is that the diet wasn't really regulated outside of that period of time. Also, and more pertinent to your question, in some research articles the placebo was not even calorie equivalent, it was calorie absent! In 1 article in particular, participants were given collagen after exercise as the treatment, and the control was not even sugar, it was not even calorie equivalent, it was calorie absent. To me that certainly does matter. Giving the body building blocks after exercise, compared to none at all for 1 full hour seems like it would clearly bias the results.
That would be great! It’s definitely on our list of things to do, we just don’t have much free time in between making these videos 😅. Thanks for the reminder though!
Speaking of supplements, how about BCAAs? I hear it has what muscles need, or does it? Anecdote time: I was having recurring knee pain after a long day of hiking, the advice I was given by the sports injury specialist, orthopedic surgeon after verifying that all the ligaments and meniscus in my knee were not torn nor had any other detectable damage was that glucosamine supplements were slightly more effective than placebos in the research he had seen and within his own patient population. His recommendation was to take the supplements for three months and stop, the plan being that the benefit from the supplements would be slow to build but quick to dissipate. I tried it and it didn't seem to make a difference and I didn't buy any more of them. Rest, PT, ibuprofen and better overall diet seem to be keeping the knee pain at bay better than the glucosamine supplements did.
Virtually all of the promoted beneficial effects of BCAAs are a direct consequence of inadequate protein intake. Against a protein matched cohort (or even when studied in well fed individuals…) the benefits completely disappear. Studies to this effect are readily available (search Alan Aragon BCAAs for a concise summary) TLDR, if you feel like BCAAs are helping, you probably need more protein in your diet, and barring dietary issues, whey is the way to go.
ARE WE INFLUENCERZ YET???
Follow-Up Notes (Updated 02/04/2022):
1. AMINOS: The building blocks of collagen are NONessential amino acids, meaning your body can produce them without having to ingest them. This is different from essential amino acids, which you must obtain through diet.
2. REGULATION: At 18:55, supplements technically ARE regulated by the FDA, just not to the stringent level we'd like to see. From the FDA's website: "Dietary supplements are regulated by the FDA as food, not as drugs. However, many dietary supplements contain ingredients that have strong biological effects which may conflict with a medicine you are taking or a medical condition you may have. Products containing hidden drugs are also sometimes falsely marketed as dietary supplements, putting consumers at even greater risk. For these reasons, it is important to consult with a health care professional before using any dietary supplement."
3. GNARLY/ZINC: At 19:17, we quote an article by Nutrition for Climbers that points out Gnarly Collagen Pro contains added zinc and that prolonged zinc supplementation could cause several issues, including copper deficiency, anemia, and interactions with medications. Gnarly claims that, because their Collagen Pro supplements also contain copper, the copper deficiency issue is negated.
4. FORMS: Collagen supplements can take multiple forms. “Hydrolyzed” collagen or collagen “peptides” means the collagen is already broken down into its constituent amino acids. This is different from other sources of collagen like gelatin (the stuff that’s in gummy bears, jello, and TONS of other foods), in which the collagen structure is still “intact.” As far as we can tell, more research is needed to determine if one delivery method is superior to the other.
Sure you are!
not until you start taking money from a supplement company!
cringe
Yes!!!
Yes, you influenced me not to buy any product. I’ve had this question for some time and I’m thankful for this video.
From a researcher as myself I can only say I love you. Your critical judgment was over the top. Love the cost-benefit analysis argument, love the analyses of pros and cons, how much you talked about statistical power, conflict of interest, even the final comment on the true effect size. Couldn't be better, really. I'm so happy to see someone do some real scientific dibate
Thank you for the comment! Emile and I had fun working on this one.
As someone who normally is very well researched, I feel a little bit ashamed that I fell prey to the "influencer said it" or "I saw a video on it" style of pitch. Now granted, what's weird is I've researched these things for hours, feeling confident in my collagen supplementation and recovery training methods.
I'm honestly really glad you released this video, as its given me an alternative critical lens to view this stuff through. The costs aren't trivial for me, so this might have saved me quite a bit of money in the long run.
Still not sure how I feel about it, but I'm glad I have some proper dissonance in my brain about it.
Keep being goofy, keep rapping, and keep helping climbers. You're a true gift to the climbing community ❤️
Thanks for sharing! Sometimes the marketing is so good you don’t even realize it’s biasing your thoughts.
Get a baseline education in biology before "researching supplementation". Supplementation is a marketing scam, pure and simple. For thousands of years we evolved just fine in a world where we could only eat a few select things. Now we live in a world where we can eat near anything and NOW we're selling nutrient deficiency to people? I don't buy it, and neither would anyone that has a basic biology education. Learn actual biology and actual nutrition. Don't "research supplements". There's nothing to research.
Love it hoop! Sifting through research may not be the sexiest thing that gets you the most views, however there are people out there who value what you do. Thanks for taking the time to make informed videos!
Thank you for the comment! We appreciate the support.
Additional qualitative sample size of 1: I took up collagen supplementing 6 or so months ago to see if it would help my fingers recover faster (as a 30 something year old - finger recovery is what usually holds me back from climbing more than 3 times per week). I haven't noticed any improvement (not even placebo sadly)! 'Why are you still taking them after 6 months' I hear you ask... optimistic purchase of a buy 2 get 1 free offer....
No control group ? 😏
But the threshold of ‘noticing benefit’ is pretty high, right. If you were receiving a 1% benefit in collagen synthesis/repair then you probably wouldn’t ‘feel’ anything. Could still be worth doing. It’s not that expensive
What has benefitted you the most in finger recovery? I’m a 30 something with finger issues too.
@@markdewey1587 power fingers bands to train the extensors has been great for my synovitis in my middle finger.
@@markdewey1587 i think tendon glides are the best thing i have introduced that help reduce stiffness/ speed up recovery
Gnarly here. Thanks for this well-researched and entertaining review on collagen. We agree there’s more research to be done and we have personally been waiting for studies controlling for protein intake between study groups and/or including a protein dosage matched control group. As a correction, Gnarly Collagen Pro contains Vitamin C, zinc AND copper. Zinc and copper are included in Gnarly Collagen Pro because both micronutrients stimulate collagen production but also because, as you pointed out, taking large amounts of zinc without a balance of copper may cause copper deficiency. Also - supplements are regulated by the FDA. That being said, they may not be well regulated and there are definitely companies that don’t follow those regulations. It’s for these reasons that Gnarly products are both NSF and NSF for sport certified; NSF is a third-party quality certification group that tests products both annually and on a lot by lot basis for label claims and contaminants like microbes, heavy metals, pesticides, and all substances on the WADA banned substances list.
Hi! Thank you for providing insight into Gnarly's process. We've added several clarifications to the pinned comment above :)
@@HoopersBeta Appreciated. We do love and support content that empowers the people. Thank you.
Unrelated to climbing, I started a regiment of a daily multivitamin, fish oil, vitamin C gummies, turmeric, collagen with biotin, and aspirin for my Achilles Tendonopathy. I would take them before bed, after a workout; usually walking about 2.5 mile daily with 2 upper body strength training and 20 minute interval lower body session which is stair climbing, or elliptical. My goal was to target inflammation with the supplements.
I was totally skeptical that it would make any difference, as I had not had any real success with with supplement for recovery or rehab. So, I was very surprised when my Achilles Tendon was not sore in the morning, at all. When I would wake up there was no tightness or soreness unless I pushed to the range of the joint’s mobility. I even noticed a marked change when I wasn’t using anything.
I cannot claim it is any one of the bank of supplements that is helping. Or if any of these are synergistically interacting. I will claim that I found something that works for me. It’s really the only time I can claim anything specifically helped my training and recovery, besides adding a larger volume of HR Zone 2 training (walking)
Incredible video. Ill stop researching collagen now. This told me everything i need to know about what we know about collagen currently! Maybe Ill revisit this matter in a couple of years!
Good call! Yeah it's always a good idea to stay on top of any updates in the research just in case :)
Thanks!
This is something I've really been interested in since I started climbing. In general, climbing takes a huge toll on tissues such as tendons and ligaments which heal a lot slower than muscle or skin. I have been working out and taking care of my nutrition for a long time so naturally, I take notice to recovery time. And the soreness in my tendons and ligaments did NOT heal like anything I was used to, so I tried a few different things.
In my personal experience, tendons and ligaments do heal better if you can get access to enough gelatin and collagen in your diet. As a Korean this isn't really an issue because there are dishes specifically made of cow knee joints etc.
One issue is that many climbers kinda veer away from consuming too much meat as a way of watching their weight, and I would assume that the access to foods containing animal joints is not universal. In these cases I do feel that collagen supplementation may help. Fish based collegen didn't really affect my recovery but cow collagens (especially type I) cut the recovery time on my finger pulley and collateral ligaments by about 30~50% and relieved tendon pain in my forearms. Of course this isn't a controlled study and I didn't injure my ligaments/tendons in the exact same manner and extent, eaten the exact same diet etc. in order to see the results. But I did have an abundance of minor injuries and it did take less time to feel comfortable to get back on the wall.
Thanks for the unique anecdote! Always fun to hear people’s personal experiences with collagen. It would be interesting to see a study comparing the collagen intake of different cultures and if there’s any correlation to connective tissue health.
-Emile
Good stuff, thank you for sharing! I am going to try some supplementation and hope it helps my tennis elbow recovery.
I ended up not supplementing, but learned that some serious cardio seems to help accelerate healing (probably by nature of forcing better blood flow)
Holy crap, I was just looking up collagen studies on tendon reconstruction for my therapeutic interventions class a couple days ago, thanks for the concise summaries! I thought the recommendations you suggested were spot on for what we know. I specifically was stripping away the (Baar, 2017) Emil study, even though I quite liked the in-vitro study, it is still just in-vitro and not terribly applicable. Personally in the future, I have a feeling that collagen studies will show minimal impact on people who already have a well-rounded nutrient-rich diet, especially ones that don't discount animal products (where collagen and such are already found). For my personal interest, I am still skeptical about collagen in my own diet as a means to feel any extra collagen synthesis in my training. However, because curiosity killed the cat, I will try to find recommendations from my local dietician for some safe collagen supplements. Being a college student who cooks, I find myself eating well, but I do go through slumps of more poor nutrition when the semester gets tough. Maybe I'll find some miracle when taking the stuff an hour before my specific training. As I am in the first cycle of my training program it would be really cool to see any benefit, but again, there will most likely be no difference seen.
Let us know if you try it out and notice any changes! Luckily the risks are generally quite low so it can be quite fun to experiment with. And hopefully we’ll get some comprehensive, high-quality research on collagen in the near future. Human nutrition studies are so hard though :(
You seem to already know the answer to your question. Save your money to get blood work and hire a dietician. The food you eat matters and you can tailor it to both taste good and nourish you. Supplementation is a scam. All of it. Not just collagen.
I avoided watching your videos for a while because they seemed a little click-bait-y. But I'm 100% on board now. I have a hard science background and it makes me very very happy to see someone rigorously analyzing all the different programs and hype. Healthy skepticism is the only rational approach since there is so little definitive research. Thanks!
I really appreciate the emphasis on taking collagen prior to physical activity as opposed to after. Coming from the bodybuilding world this is definitely a little bit different and I appreciate the info. Well I continue to take collagen out of habit? Probably. Question is when are you gonna do the video breakdown on pentosan polysulfate as a climbing ped :).
Great video - as usual. I took up climbing kind of late in life - 56 years old. (I've worked my way up to "occasionally" sending 5.11d, typically as a day project - not bad for a noobie old guy!) I've always been athletic, but for some reason never thought about climbing until "the kids" took my Wife and I when we visited for Thanksgiving one year. We were hooked and kicked the regular gym to the curb. My diet is really good (98% of the time), no prescriptions and we take a few vitamins, powdered collagen being one of them with vitamin C mixed into it. Can't say if it helps or not actually - so this article has been super helpful in my quest to climb until I'm 100! BTW - I've used your research and suggestions for various injuries (pulleys tendons, extensor tendons etc.. warm up before climbing, cool down after) with great success. Thanks for what you do for the climbing community - keep it up!
Thanks for the comment Scott! Love to hear how you're staying healthy and climbing great! That's fantastic. Cool that you got into the sport later on as well. Keep up the good work and thanks for the support!
Might be worth mixing in a bit of whey and see if you notice anything. Fairly cheap, would make sense for it to be more effective (not the same as a guarantee of course).
Additionally, as we get older, our bodies become less sensitive to leucine, so somewhat larger protein doses are needed to stimulate protein syntheses.
@@danielbeall7725 Thanks for your thoughts..... We do a smoothie for breakfast every weekday morning with protein powder mixed in, mostly kale, spinach, carrot and other good stuff with a little fruit to mix it up day to day.(I cook on the weekends and it's typical breakfast "stuff" like omelets, pancakes, potatoes etc.). Maybe we can "up the dose" of protein for a while to see if it has any affect.
@@scottsmith7097 sounds like you have a pretty solid routine already, but shouldn’t hurt to try!
Thanks for the video! This is a somewhat sensitive topic. I’ve been taking PhysiVantage super charged collagen for a couple years now based off the info Eric Horst podcast. Personally I’ve noticed differences. I’m 40 & have been climbing for 12 years; and as I’ve gotten older my joints would ache since taking SC they no longer ache. Also, I’ve had a few finger injuries over the years, Im actually dealing with some tendon strains right now; my PT said would be about a 3 month healing period, but it’s been a month and it feels pretty close to 100% better. I’ve noticed changes so I’m going to keep taking it. I feel it’s best to test it out on your own body if it works great, take it; if it doesn’t no biggie don’t take it.
I’m hopeful there will be more research in the future!
Thanks for sharing! Awesome to hear that it has helped make you feel better. You're right and we agree! Definitely want more research, but making informed, individual decisions is best for now :)
Eric Hörst will be unhappy with this video and I'm alright with this. Thanks for the information!
Great video with excellent breakdown of the studies. In 30 years of climbing I’ve tried collagen numerous times, and never seen any positive effect (sadly), on my fingers or knees. Consuming eggs for breakfast on heavy days, along with some BCAA makes noticeable difference, even though I eat plenty of meat and veggie protein anyway. For me, It was good to see this in line with the conclusion of this video.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I will agree on the eggs. That's my go to :)
Thanks for all the hard work you put into this video!!!
happy to be 1000th like hope you get many more as its greatly deserved! excellent content as always!
Thank you for the support!!
For my own bit of anecdotal evidence, I have been consistently taking 20g of collagen paired with vitamin C before every climbing session (3-4 days per week, 4hours per day) post getting multiple A2 strains. It has been just under 3 months and the pain in my fingers is completely gone.
How's your diet overall? Do you think the collagen supplements are simply filling a gap in your protein intake or are they potentially helping on top of a solid diet?
@@HoopersBeta hard to say, 90% of the food I eat is made at home. Generally I eat a protein with every meal and try to pair that with either fruits or vegetables. However, my speculation is that when we’re injured, specifically in collagen dependent areas, it makes sense to me that the body would demand more of that specific molecule/compound in order to repair itself. I know that for rehabilitation specifically tailored towards muscle repair, it’s recommended to increase your protein intake (specifically proteins with the amino leucine?). So I would like to assume the same is true for ligament based injuries as well. However, I am but a simple climber. I’m all talk and speculation 😅.
3 months is long enough to heal a broken bone 3 weeks should be enough time to make a huge difference in any healing time
@@adambeauchamp4813 I assume that you only have a certain amount of money. Use it to hire a good dietician instead of buying supplements. Nature provides.
You are quickly becoming my favourite climbing channel on youtube. Real and useful real world information. Thanks and keep it up.
Thank you for the nice comment! We are glad you find our videos beneficial :)
This was a long, well thought out, informative video that ultimately did not change my overall level of knowledge or plans moving forward. I will continue to supplement collagen before climbing-related activity for the chance there is a benefit. Thanks!
Sample size of one - my 50yr old body seems to be responding well to collagen supplement - but correlation is not causation. I take it more for injury prevention as joints/shoulders/pulleys seem to be less happy w intense bouldering.
It would be great to have a vid on what practices and supplements you can do when you aren’t climbing that can prevent common injuries.
I did the Emil hangboard routine and felt it was great at stretching things out and building a bit of resistive strength.
The concept of attaining resistance is not well understood in climbers - but you know it when you ultimately gain it.
Glad that it seems to have had a positive effect for you! That's what it's about anyway, right? Testing things out, seeing how we feel as individuals, and then making decisions based on that to help us perform at our best.
Never found collagen research serious enough. At the end of the day, collagen is a relatively low quality protein with less amino acids than most other sources so why would you want to pay for that? I would consider it if they proved collagen specifically improved synthesis of final collagen in the body due to over abondance of the right amino acids but as you said, the research is far from reaching that conclusion and If I'm being cynical, I think comparing their products to sugar was on purpose, to show half decent results... I doubt collagen can beat egg or meat in a straight fight.
It's like comparing eating to not eating, lol. "wow ! body can rebuild better with food intake!!!"
You guys killed it on this one 👌🏻
Great content and really funny. You should get more views. It made me buy a T-shirt to support you. Keep the hard work and great content/research!
Awesome! Thanks for the support! Yeah the new T-shirt designs are great! (in my biased opinion of course lol)
That song kinda slapped tho
Helps to have a music producer for a cousin 😜 @jakeplusbeats
Yea, it was fire
I had really good results drinking chicken bone broth and taking a vitamin c supplement with zinc after a finger injury. I would drink the bone broth and take vitamin c before doing a fingerboard routine for rehab. I felt like my fingers were the best they have been for awhile after doing this routine for a couple months. No way to know if it was the collagen though
I'm probably too late to the game for this to be seen - but first, I appreciate your approach to all things. I am a Research Statistician and a PT friend of mine sent me your channel after I had a lumbrical injury.
Second, I don't think your concern with collagen v sugar is all that warranted. My understanding of these studies is that the collagen (or sugar) was purely supplemental and was meant to test if collagen itself was effective, not compare its effectiveness to other things. As in, if a person were to continue to eat exactly the same, would supplementing with collagen be beneficial? That seems like a worthwhile test as hopefully randomization in a large study would eliminate the variance of diet. However, I do completely agree with you that it would be important to know if the collagen supplement was beneficial because it was collagen, or if adding amino acids into the diet (via food or supplement) would be just as effective. I highlight this difference in study approach because my, albeit quick, survey of the literature on whey protein powder is that it is usually tested as a supplement to and not as a replacement for dietary protein.
I will say, I personally don't plan to use collagen supplement products. It appears that for overall health, getting nutrients from whole foods is better (or at least as good) as any sort of supplementation. I would rather make sure I am eating adequate protein than buying a collagen supplement for the reasons you mentioned at the beginning - it all gets broken down to the same building blocks anyway. One thing I have considered doing, both because it is delicious and just in case it makes a difference, is making homemade bone broth and drinking that more regularly.
Keep up the great videos!
Hi Jonathan, well said on both sides! Thanks for commenting and we're happy you found the channel! I understand your points and agree in the sense that it is not inherently bad what they did. I also like your idea of having a much larger study to help eliminate the diet variance factor. Good idea! The bigger overall issue for me is just that many of these collagen companies are using this research as a gold standard that their product is effective and should be used routinely. When, as you accurately stated, it is important to know if it is actually just because of the collagen, or just having more amino's / protein in their diet. Interesting idea on the bone broth, as well! I've never personally found any that I thought to be delicious hah! But, I haven't tried that many out there (and some of the better brands are seemingly quite expensive!). Anyway, thanks again for commenting!
You guys are really making videos at a high level - impressive
Thank you!
Quality banter - full marks from a Brit! Great content as always guys!
Thank you!
The one thing I can definitely notice when supplementing collagen is the Increase of rate of hair and nail growth, so my idea is that at the very least it probably helps speed the recovery of the skin on my hands. Skin recovery times can definitely limit training, so maybe if only for the skin healing, is is worth the relatively low cost and low/no side effect profile. Also, every time I see someone recommend against any form of protein supplementation, I think it is worth noting that almost all food sources that contain equivalent protein quantities are more expensive than a protein supplement, and, if there are no negative side effects associated with the supplement, than what is really the downside? One last point would be that any form of protein supplementation will likely make it easier to increase one's protein/overall calorie intake ratio, which should improve body composition that is favorable to any uphill sports that benefit from an ideal strength to weight ratio. The high glycine levels in collagen may also have favorable effects aside from physical recovery such as better sleep and balancing neurotransmitters, but this is probably subjective and complex.
Holy cow collagen. What an amazing video. You did so much work for us summarizing the science. I love it. Incredibly helpful.
Great video as always! :D
I'd love to see a video about climbers with varies degrees of flat feet, I haven't have it professionally checked but from a few tests I believe I have some degree of it so I really want to learn more about it.
For the video it can include its effect to climbing(skill, technique and risk etc), including exercises/ tips that might be useful for those with flat feet and maybe rudimentary identification method to test at home !
Adam Ondra have flat feet
Yeah, I got some real pancakes going on also. Seems to be fine?
You noticing any particular problems?
@@danielbeall7725 I’m quite a beginner myself so I’d say I can’t tell the difference, there’s one thing I’m not sure if there’s a connection is that if I’m tipping toe hard with my heel higher I could some times get a cramp in the arch area.
Perhaps it’s just my over all untrained weak leg/feet that’s why I want to learn more about it :3
There are products marketed as vegan collagen supplements, but on closer examination, they just contain nutrients that apparently support collagen production in the body. It does surprise me that there aren't synthetic collagen supplements, given how many nutrients we regularly synthesise (e.g. taurine in cat food, rennet in cheese). Why have we not started synthesising collagen?
I think vegan collagen does exist, or at least there are claims that it exists in some skincare products. This is not to be confused with "vegan collagen boosting" products (which it sounds like you're describing). For a couple examples, Algenist and Pacifica claim to have engineered a molecularly structural equivalent from plant sources. There's also an article from 2005 that discusses collagen/gelatin production from yeast and bacteria ("Recombinant microbial systems for the production of human collagen and gelatin").
I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on any of this myself, and I don't know which types of collagen these are supposed to produce. But at least as far as skincare goes, it's possible that there may be options. I'm not aware of anything like this in the form of an oral supplement though; it's surprising to me as well.
I haven't look into vegan collagen alternatives, but if I had to guess I'd say maybe the manufacturers don't think it's worth the investment? Like, why spend all that money on R&D when you could sell regular old collagen with huge profit margins? Idk
- Emile
@@zetorux Interesting, thanks for sharing! My search said there wasn't any, but this makes some sense as many synthetic biological products are made from yeast.
@@HoopersBeta That makes sense to me, but I wonder what the trigger point was to start using synthetic rennet in most cheese, and why that hasn't happened with collagen.
Thank you so much for that video... i stopped counting how often i had precisely this discussion with friends... there is no evidence that a collagen supplement is any better than any other protein supplement or just good and healthy food.
Very thorough explanation thanks. I’m stoping Collagen. Thanks❤
Thanks for commenting!
Collagen sups made all the difference in my case. For 4 years my finger joints had been burning / inflamed after climbing sessions. Usually started 12 to 24 hours after, and could last up to 2 days. Tried everything: rollers, massage, antogonist flexor training, careful warmup & cool down, etc. I even designed morpho-adaptive fingerboards to train w all open fingers (on blogger: _Morpho adaptive Crimp Board for finger training & climbing_ )
Nothing made a dent. Until collagen sups (from physivantage). 2 weeks later it was mostly gone. That was a completely unexpected surprise. Fingers are now sore after a hard session but no longer burning like hell the next day.
I went vegetarian a couple of years before that time, and was not paying much attention to my diet. Bet I was not getting enough of the proteins / amino acids necessary for the body to rebuild collagen in my joints. Wish I had known that earlier, a couple of joints never fully recovered (sometimes stuck open or clicking)...
Great anecdote, thanks for sharing!
This is incredible thank for giving us the best of both worlds. Influencer level style with actual science. Also sick beats!!
Thank you! Haha sick beats 4 life!
After looking at all those studies that only looked at Collagen supplementation vs placebo / sugar, I really wish those studies contained a third group of participants that supplemented with a protein /whey. It would have been interesting to see if whey supplementation, with all those precious amino acids, would have maximized collagen synthesis on its own
Would definitely be interesting to see a whey comparison!
The cynic in me thinks it's very likely they did. When there's a salable product involved, the science we don't see published is sometimes as telling as what they do.
The other one that seems to be conspicuously missing (unless I’m remembering badly 😬)
Is that they don’t test collagen only or exercise only. All in all, rather weak controls and a tiny sample size.
One group having better results purely from statistical randomness isn’t all that unlikely when you have ~ 2 people per group…
I am super interested in the research. I started collagen supplements after ANOTHER major finger injury, and as an over 35 climber and 20 years of injuries stacking up, I was ready to try anything. Anecdotally, my recovery has been better, and notable "tweaks" are at an all-time low. At this point, I'm comfortable paying for the potential placebo. Side note, Orgain brand is half the price of the climber-centric Physivantage brand for the same product, and I can get it almost anywhere.
Thanks for the rigorous analysis and great popularization!
Another issue with drawing conclusions from multiple small studies. The negative studies generally get left out. As a former researcher with a handful of studies which had negative results, I can confidently say that they frequently don't get published or publish somewhere very obscure and do not get entered into searches. There may be dozens or hundreds of studies on this topic with inconclusive findings and we'd never know.
Excellent point! Thanks for sharing that insight. That's definitely a huge problem we face. Studies with uninteresting or insignificant findings don't get attention / publication but are still clearly important.
One question that I agree needs answering: how does collagen compare to having a proper pre-workout meal? or even collagen vs whey.
Great question!
@@HoopersBeta The other quality often attributed to Collagen supplementation is increased skin recovery after damage. Is there anything pointing that way in the research? I climb on Gritstone a lot, and it really wears the tips down. Faster turnover at the tips would be enough reason for me to supplement tbh.
Nice video! Dave Macleod has a similar take on collagen. One thing he points out is that one of these studies had, as an exclusion criteria, anyone who had supplemented with protein in the past 6 months. A curious thing, if what you really wanted to know is whether collagen could benefit people who are already getting adequate amounts of a variety of amino acids (including glycine and proline), and not just whether it could help people who are protein deficient
I was surprised how inexpensive it is, and may take it as a pre-cautionary thing. Or drink more bone broth and eat more pork rinds, although collagen supplements are cheaper than both!
Yeah bone broths are quite expensive!
wow, i can definitely check all the ‚collagen won‘t fix‘ boxes.. i took a screenshot to see what i need to work on.. thanks xD
Glad it was helpful!
Guys, you're awesome! I can't resist it, I'm setting up your song as my ringtone.
Hahaha COLLAAGEEEENNN!!
I hope there is some more research in the future! Anecdote: I started taking collagen along with nutrient supplements with an already overall balanced diet (good protein, good amount of fruits and veggies) and I feel like recovery after a hard session does feel faster than with solely a balanced diet. Could be placebo but who knows until more studies are done LOL. Great video!
Even if it is the placebo effect it’s always nice to feel like you’re recovering quickly! :)
how much more insider trading between supplement companies and "researchers" do we need to see to know that supplementation gives you a placebo effect at best?
Thoughts on the "Stress, Relaxation and Targeted Nutrition To Treat Patellar Tendinopathy." (2018) case study from the Journal of Sport, Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism?
I am familiar with that one (but haven't done a full break down on it yet!) but since it was going off of research from Baar and that crew I figured better to analyze the source (the Baar research) in more detail instead. Good question and I'll have to dig into that one soon!
Thank you very to make this video, I have tennis elbow and my elbow tendons time to time is sensitive, and is a long time I'm searching methods to never have pain in that area and after watching this video I think the best way is to "train" that are regularly and eat well, thanks to clear my mind
Would band/pull resistance training help for that (think opposite of a curl)? I feel like working/strengthening the tissues the opposite direction maybe could help.
Very big misunderstanding at 7:20 - they use a sugar placebo as a 'control'. The point is it has no effect, other than the placebo effect. If they used eggs, it would have a real effect (beyond a placebo), and the relative measurement between eggs and a collagen supplement would be less meaningful. Eggs would not be a placebo, and they would remove the necessary baseline to perform the measurement against. With the placebo control, someone can repeat the study comparing eggs against a placebo, and a separate study by an independent group of researchers could compare meat against a palcebo, and all these relative measurements (against a thing and a placebo) could be reviewed and compared to one another in a meta review (by completely different researchers again). So the control is essential for research and is fundamental when reading and intrepreting this sort of research.
There are studies comparing the effects of testosterone vs a sugar placebo. No one thinks sugar is going to do what testosterone does. But the study particpants need to think they are receiving testosterone so they get the placebo effect, and the comparison between the control and the test group can be measured, recorded and compared.
I get including eggs would have given us (climbers) a more useful comparison for practical application, but its just not a valid criticism of the study. Sample size of 8 is, but try and get money to do colllagen synthesis research on hundreds of people...
this video is an absolute banger from start to finish. well done
Great video. The studies I personally wanna see are some where the placebo is an avocado, chickpeas or something like that. Trying to fix dietary problems with specific supplements won't help in the long run. And saying that a supplement "works" just because it's better than eating nothing or shit-food is just a fallacy.
I’ve been taking physivantage since straining my A2 and I personally don’t believe it made much difference to my healing but honestly I can’t be sure either way.
I’ll probably not bother getting it again once I’ve finished the pack. I do eat a high protein/meat diet already though so maybe the extra collagen doesn’t make much difference to me.
Yeah you're right, it can be really hard to tell! Thanks for sharing.
You just saved me a whole load of money, bro :) Thanks!
Adding to your point near the end, instead of collagen, try gelatin which has the same amino acids. Add a scoop to your instant ramen broth (or soup, whatever) to give it some of that texture that real rich bone broth has. It's much cheaper too since you can get it as a food ingredient rather than a fact supplement which is marked up hard
Thanks for this video! About a year ago, I was trying to decide if I should take collagen and I read that it does not contain all nine essential amino acids. That was enough for me to decide I'll just eat other sources of protein. A dozen eggs is cheaper.
I appreciate you pointing out how the control groups were obviously going to show that collagen is beneficial in the studies. Yeah, eating literally any source of protein in any amount is better than sugar or nothing. It reminds me of how I can't find research about red meat that doesn't include hot dogs and salami.
Love the videos. Thank you for all your hard work.
It's totally wild that none of the studies did a direct comparison with equivalent (non collagen sourced) protein supplementation.
It seems to me this would be the most important point, if the collagen is actually doing something unique, something that equivalent food types don't do.
Given what we know about digestion it almost seems like we're assuming that there's some unknown, beneficial ingredient in collagen specifically that makes it worth taking.
I agree, that's a study I would love to see/read!!
I like the dedicated effort to be scientific accurate. Thank you for doing the work and spreading proper information.
Thanks for the support!
Great video thank you! Taking it for skin benefits anyway so hope it helps with climbing too.
Another point I will make is that sugar will absolutely assist in exercise recovery both by repleting glycogen stores and by rapidly triggering protein synthesis by spiking insulin. (In response to the objections over sugar used as a placebo in the studies).
This video is extremly informative , extremly funny, well made and I totally agree they with all of your points, they could done the placebo with whey protein that enriched with vitamin C and zinc for example.
Thank you, you have earned a permanent loyal subscriber.
Thanks for the support and welcome to the HB family!
Love this thoughtful video !!! The hype 🥲
The song convinced me the most!
We really should branch out into the music industry...
@@HoopersBeta Hooper's Beats, huh?
Last time i injured my finger flexor and you made a video about it like a week later, now i orderd some collegen to help with the recovery and rebuilding for the first time ever and you make this. Perfect timing as always :D
Best video to date. I think this topic calls for a large sacrifice of mice fed a radiolabled collagen feed. Carbon-14 for life!
About 99% of promising biomolecules that are indentified in vitro don't make it into significant in vivo studies, therefore I'd always be very careful with studies that show effects on the human body from an in vitro measurement...
Thanks so much for this content, it's so time intensive to go through research and summarizing it like this is really great work!
I only watched until 2.35 .. that was all the info i needed. Off to the collagen shop
😂😂
Emil Abrahamsson DID NOT TAKE COLLAGEN during his month-long hangboarding experiment! I forgot where I read this (might have been in the YT comments), but I recall someone asking Emil what his collagen supplementation routine was. His reply was something to the effect of "I did not try to replicate that aspect of the study." In any case, I came across this as I was doing my own research trying to understand how his big strength gains were even possible (having just watched Hooper's response video here on this channel). For what it's worth, I think I found the answer: noob gains. Abrahamsson was already a campus board aficionado, but training on a hangboard was new to him. Most campus-board exercises are great for training your muscles to contract more rapidly (which means more power) but do not provide a very good stimulus for muscle growth. It's the opposite with the hangboard. And, although Emil was not following one of the standard forearm hypertrophy protocols (e.g. repeaters, pyramids) with his moving hangs, it is easily possible that he did enough to stimulate muscle growth.
Didn’t mean to imply that Emil took collagen. If that was what it sounded like then apologies! He used other parts of the study to make his hangboard program.
@@HoopersBeta I got that impression, so I just wanted to contribute my clarification of that point for the benefit of the discussion. Your in-depth analysis in the Emil video is actually what inspired me to investigate the facts for myself. Truth seeking can be contagious, you know. 😉 Lastly, just to be clear, I love what you're doing with this channel. Making the truth your priority as you do is a rare and special act of intellectual bravery at this point in time. Please, by all means, keep doing what you're doing! 😀
sample size in relation to effect size is what matters, not sample size alone. The VAS is a well validated tool in biomedical research to measure pain. Having said that; the overall conclusion that the role of collagen supplementation on tendon health and healing is still largely unknown. On the other hand, the risk-benefit ratio has nothing on the left side.
It bugs me that most of the research doesn't mention if the participants are already consuming a proper amount of protein. At the very least cataloging the participants average macros per day should be a requirement before even publishing results. The difference between someone consuming 30 grams of protein per day and then getting another 30 grams in collagen is huge compared to someone already consuming 180 grams of protein per day.
Also, most studies in collagen never compare it to the most common and cheapest protein supplement: whey. I have a suspicion that just increasing your protein intake via any bioavailable protein would have the same effect as collagen supplementation.
Wonderfully said! That's a great point.
Yep, you nailed it, I think. I bet most people get enough of the right proteins in their diet that collagen sups do not make a diff. In my case, vegetarian, I stupidly destroyed my finger joints over 4 years (burning, inflamed) before stumbling on cosups by chance. It all went away in a couple of weeks. Did not know better... So yep, sample of 1, but I suspect that analysing people's diet in these studies might be key to understand why it sometimes does / not make a diff.
Could you do something similar for creatine???
That would be great!! Beta alanine is another popular one too.
As someone with a collateral ligament injury. I've been wondering if taking collagen would help with recovery. It seems like it could help, but there are so many other things that could make an even bigger difference.
True, there are many other variables to consider! Though, if you find a low cost collagen supplement solution (like plain old gelatin) it *could* be worth it
-Emile
@@HoopersBeta Doc what do you think about BPC 157? I know a lot of research has been looking very promising.
Collagen is just a marketing scheme supplement with no official clinical research backing to it. You’re better off eating food or taking supplements that promote collagen production
@Joseph Burnside I kind of already know but can you explain anyways?
@Joseph Burnside what about food
Welp, now I have that Collagen song stuck in my brain. And I ain't even complaining! Collageeen collageeeeen
haha glad you enjoyed! Emile has some real song writing talents ;)
Would love to see the research repeated where collagen supplement is compared to protein shake + multivitamin. It's just a protein. We breaking down then re-build it. It can't be any better than a readily digested complete source of protein. ...and yeah... collagen supplement or a handful of gelatine based sweets??
Thank you for the very informative video! I have to admit that I did not read the articles myself... so my question would be: Since the 'control' groups got sugar as a placebo... did the collagen group take the collagen with sugar? From your description (saying it just tells us collagen is better than sugar) it seems that was not the case. Can this be counted as a real placebo? I'd say the taste of sugar is quite noticable and different than that of collagen. If the participants new the general topic of the study, they could easily guess which group they were in. Even if that was not the case, it holds the possibility that the placebo effects of a non-sweet substance differ from that of a sweet substance.
That's fair! there could be a flavor difference. I'm not sure exactly what they did to combat that, but perhaps the liquid they mixed it with was enough to dilute it so it wasn't a huge difference. Good point / question though!
@@HoopersBeta was it sugar, or was it starch, which is slightly more complex and most notably not sweet per se like sugar (glucose).
I thought the assumption of proteins right before or after the workout was debunked.
Different companies sell the same collagen at prizes completely different based on the market they are aiming for.
In my experience i spent 17Euros for "Tendijoint Forte" 20 pills with 100mg collagen each for a total of 2000mg X 17Euros but it was meant to be assumed daily for the duration of 2 months max, 1 or 2 times a year. If i read correctly collagen from gnarly is 50$ for a total of 450mg of collagen. i'd rather take different specific integrators than these all in one with a bit of really low dosage of everything.
Love this scientific approach to supplements for climbers. Personally, I have been taken both collagen in supplement form and topical serum (retinol). I have been lean and athletic most time of my life and eat mostly healthy so can't tell if it is effective anecdotally. May be some placebo effect (*different than zero effect, research showed). I do notice my nail and hair are better after taking collagen supplements.
What I would say is, even if it works, it is highly personal, e.g. is it effective, to what extend.
Lastly I do notice a calming/anti-inflammation effects from magnesium post workout.
Collagen is roughly 1/3 glycine, and glycine is great for sleep quality. That may contribute to the recovery effects. I take it at night for this reason, I get about an hour and a half more out of each day with the same feeling of rest.
why the vitamin C with the Collagen? i know vit C is good and all but why should you take them together?
best climbing youtuber, every climber needs to follow you
😊 thanks for the support
Dont stop at 100!! You have some of the most reliable info about Climbing fysiology out there. And in my opinion, the collagen science is a lot of crap. I would accept a study with 50 people and protein and aminoacids as placebo.
Thank you! We certainly have plans to keep working hard and appreciate the support!
what a great overview! How about creatine? Would you guys influence for that stuff?
Working on a creatine vid! :)
Seriously well done content and video!
Thank you!
Thanks for this very informative video!!
Thks for the amount of work and informations. It helps me a lot with my clients. Is the "collagen song" on spotify? ;)
Glad to hear it! :) And thanks for the reminder, I've got to ask @jakeplusbeats (the music producer) to put the song on spotify haha
-Emile
"studies should have large representative sample sizes, control groups, randomised assignments, objective measurements and double-blinded approach..." *SUBSCRIBE* This is the kind of content we need more of.
Thank you Dr. Hooper for this hilarious and analytical approach to collagen supplementation and the studies that they rely on for their claims of efficacy. I appreciate your argument as a consumer advocate, noting that these claims by supplement companies are not approved by the FDA, which implies there is not enough oversight. It's very hard to find any dietary supplement that makes an actual FDA-verified claim on its label. However, to say that these collagen supplement companies claim that collagen makes you a "better climber" seems a little bad faith, since none of these companies make this claim outright. As a climber in my mid-30's, I first started taking collagen supplements a year ago in response to some nagging PIP joint pain, often triggered by half-crimping. I started using grocery-store collagen supplements, and then went on to PhysiVantage collagen supplements. I took them an hour prior to a daily finger warm-up / rehabilitation routine designed by Eric Horst, which can be found in a video on his T4C channel. Consider my experience an N of 1, but I think there is something to the claims that type-2 collagen supplements, when they have the right components and are taken in addition to a healthy diet, sleep schedule, and timed an hour (which relates back to the blood serum study you mentioned in your video) prior to a finger warm-up regiment, may reduce joint pain, or perhaps rebuild damaged connective tissue, or strengthen tendons, sinew, or even prevent injury.
Also Dave MacLeod, elder statesman of the global climbing community and holder of a MSc. in both Nutrition and Physiology, has asserted similar preventative/rehab benefits from eating meats rich in collagen, i.e. beef tendon, fish skin, and other connective tissue. You made a great point that collagen studies aren't conclusive when it comes to the recovery benefits or strength building benefits that they assert on their labels. But assuming for the sake of argument that collagen does help prevent or rehabilitate joint injury or even tendon/ligament injuries, it seems there are two split camps as to which source climbers should get their collagen. Considering the consumer-advocacy argument you made, I think it's safe to say that if you really, really *want* to take extra collagen for climbing reasons, then you should try to prioritize collagen straight from the source, i.e. beef tendon, fish skin, etc. Unless you're vegetarian/ vegan and there's some kind of plant-based type-2 collagen, then maybe take those instead of supplements. I honestly don't know. I am not an expert at all. Just curious about your thoughts.
Indeed not for me, as I am against avoidable harm inflicted on animals (i.e. indeed I am "vegan"). But I really appreciate your systematic and scientific method approach to analyzing all these issues: ommited variables bias, samples issues, reverse causality, etc. As a vegan and pure-math trained-then-tyurned-economist who teaches university economics and statistical methods who happens to ASLO love rock climbing and wants to improve, your insights and proper approach are totally amazing. Keep it coming. Best regards.
Thank you for the kind comment/feedback!
Great video as always! The deep dive into the science is always very welcome. I was wondering if you knew anything about Glucosamine? I was experiencing really bad swelling and stiffness in my finger joints after climbing a while back, and have been taking joint care supplements for around 2 months now. Very minimal swelling/issues from climbing now! Wondering if you had any insight your end or if you might make a video on it. Cheers for the amazing content always.
Will definitely add that to the list, I think it would make an interesting video! Thanks for sharing
@@HoopersBeta No problem! If it helps at all with ingredients, Ive been taking Seven Seas Joint Care Supplex. And I believe I was experiencing synovitis in my fingers. Looking forward to more of your content. 💪
Any particular type of Gelatin/vitamin C gummy you recommend?
Thanks. What I still don't understand is the difference between a separate collagen product and say, a regular protein powder that would contain the same amino acids + vitamin C (i.e Huel) ?
If the aminos are the same, literally nothing.
This video is GOLD!
What do you think about MSM supplementation which is claimed to stimulate collagen production and speed up muscle recovery.
Claimed by whom? Will have to look into the research (if there is any that's decent...)
You mentioned a couple times how you dislike that the placebo is typically sugar in collagen experiments. Does it really matter? My assumption is that both groups use the treatment as a supplement and followed a regular diet otherwise. Therefore the effects of any other diet related effects are basically controlled for. Or am I not seeing something? Fantastic video otherwise!!
Perhaps Collagen vs Whey or another source of amino acids may have achieved insignificant results? Industry funded researchers do not have to publish such results.
Thanks for commenting! Glad you enjoyed the video overall! The problem is that the diet wasn't really regulated outside of that period of time. Also, and more pertinent to your question, in some research articles the placebo was not even calorie equivalent, it was calorie absent! In 1 article in particular, participants were given collagen after exercise as the treatment, and the control was not even sugar, it was not even calorie equivalent, it was calorie absent. To me that certainly does matter. Giving the body building blocks after exercise, compared to none at all for 1 full hour seems like it would clearly bias the results.
what I would like to know it's compared to whey protein or eggs, as both are one of the cheapest protein sources I can think of.
Can you guys make an app for all of the content/articles you place on your website? Would love to see all your content in one place/app!
That would be great! It’s definitely on our list of things to do, we just don’t have much free time in between making these videos 😅. Thanks for the reminder though!
Dang my Hooper's Beta T-shirt is outdated now. Time to pick up that new merch! Amazing hundredth episode though guys. Congrats!
Hah nothing wrong with the OG T-shirts! But the new designs are pretty sweet if I must say so :)
Hey I looked for the song on Spotify but couldn’t find it…? 😢
Speaking of supplements, how about BCAAs? I hear it has what muscles need, or does it?
Anecdote time:
I was having recurring knee pain after a long day of hiking, the advice I was given by the sports injury specialist, orthopedic surgeon after verifying that all the ligaments and meniscus in my knee were not torn nor had any other detectable damage was that glucosamine supplements were slightly more effective than placebos in the research he had seen and within his own patient population. His recommendation was to take the supplements for three months and stop, the plan being that the benefit from the supplements would be slow to build but quick to dissipate. I tried it and it didn't seem to make a difference and I didn't buy any more of them.
Rest, PT, ibuprofen and better overall diet seem to be keeping the knee pain at bay better than the glucosamine supplements did.
Virtually all of the promoted beneficial effects of BCAAs are a direct consequence of inadequate protein intake. Against a protein matched cohort (or even when studied in well fed individuals…) the benefits completely disappear. Studies to this effect are readily available (search Alan Aragon BCAAs for a concise summary)
TLDR, if you feel like BCAAs are helping, you probably need more protein in your diet, and barring dietary issues, whey is the way to go.