There were an annoying number of technical issues on this one, I tried to edit around them as best I could but apologise for any visual weirdness. It should also be noted that this video is Legends continuity to the broader Anakin Shrugged universe. Naturally, that will receive its own version, which will feature our beautiful erudite boy laying out his own arguments. As this is the first time I've remastered an older video, I kept the script and format largely intact with a few minor changes here and there, it's an older script of mine and I like to think I've improved as a writer by quite a bit since, but it has its charms. There will be a full remake of this at some point featuring a thesis-touting Anakin.
@@OldFarmerJoe1 I do owe you that, I've replied on your original comment asking for it, please do let me know the form you want the video to take (if you have any preference)
The mental image of a wave youngling hurling themselves out a window from the same perspective as that one lemming video is now a mental image that has been seared into my mind.
@@hufflepuffvoldida7977 Defenestrating yourself also works. I use that word instead of another certain word because BabyTube keeps deleting my comment.
@@ninochaosdrache3189"Let me guess vader you finally have a counter point to my argument but while you were figuring out how to do so I have made counter point to yours so your move"
@lordly123 It had the flashy lightsaber fights for masses, the politics for nerds, the world building for people who likes expanded worlds, etc etc etc. The prequels elevate the OT so much.
@@davidwuhrer6704 doesnt matter jedi are basically space jews thats why George wrote it that way, theyre supposed to be the "stewards" of society but allow massive economic inequalities and slavery, they simply pretend their system of governance is the only system there could possibly be, and just perpetuate injustice. We are supposed to notice this logical contradiction in their dogma leading to his mother's death , rejection of personal love, and mass injustice.
Dooku would love to debate Kenobi on this topic. By being enforcers of a corrupt oligarchic republic, the Jedi have caused major harm from an utilitarian point of view, and whilst autocracy is not the answer, neither is preserving the status quo. Ask the citizens of the Coruscant underworld what they think of the Jedi. Or those of the Outer Rim. There's a reason why the Separatists were able to garner the popular support they did.
@@matianlong7907he obviously wanted to turn him, and he thought that the only way to do that would be to spill the beans on Sidious. If he believed him and accepted his "Qui-gon would approve" message, then he gets a new apprentice to help him dethrone Sidious. Alternatively, Obi-wan either doesn't believe him or simply rejects him, and it doesn't matter because he's presumably going to he dead soon anyway.
I mean, most of them don't actually *have* any opinions of the Jedi Order as a whole. They left because, yes, the Republic as a whole was a bit of a problem but outside of people like Dooku himself, I don't think *most* of the separatists viewed the Jedi as Enforcers of that... at least, before he charisma-checked in their direction. But by and large, most of the outer rim doesn't really hate the Jedi so much as not have opinions on them due to their low numbers and the Reformation chaining them to the direction of the Senate. But where they actually go and are *seen* going? People usually like them for most of the same reasons Obi states in the video. ... Also, aside from all that, Dooku is well aware of why the Order is fighting the war (and it isn't agreeing it *should* be fought), if he isn't then Sidious must've mindfucked him when he convinced him to cooperate because Dooku *knows* the ramifications if the Order refused to do so.
Ah yes, the writing paradox that is stupid because, I have literally seen people say the most disgusting things about themselves in broad day light to everyone without a care in the world.
@@vexspacey2644 something being disgusting isn't even in the same ballpark as saying your emotional state out loud. Unless you consider "I am gassy" an emotion.
@@vexspacey2644sometimes reality doesn’t make good fiction. Random stuff can happen all the time in real life, but that doesn’t mean that Deus ex Machina is a good trope or that you can overlook cause and effect. Plus pretty much every rule has exceptions anyway, and a skilled enough writer can create a fantastic story whilst ignoring every piece of common writing advice.
@@sealsaregood5146 You could also take the "Senator Armstrong" view and argue against the Jedi Position since it amounts to a denial of living beings agency and will. That is to say, living beings desire to dominate each other. The strong dominating the weak is preferable in utilitarian terms than neither dominating, since being dominated is less negative than the positives granted through domination (The primary source of suffering in being dominated being that you are not dominating, but the Jedi position also causes this). By preventing that domination, nobody gets what they want, and a small evil is avoided at the cost of a large good. You could argue that the negative utilitarianism necessary to oppose the Sith Code is "Evil" in that case. Constraining the weak by dominating them reduces utility for them, but increases it for the strong. Constraining the strong from domination reduces their utility by the same amount, without comparable benefit to the weak. Thus, the Jedi are evil.
@@officechairpotato Interestingly enough, as I recall, I think that's more or less Palpatine's personal philosophy. I think in general, as an archetype, it makes for a pretty good villain philosophy in media, as the foundational axiom is generally quite antithetical to the generic heroic philosophy.
I remember having a pretty popular post on the original video. I can't help but feel my post's focus on virtue ethics got it included in the remake and heartily approve. I mean, Obi-Wan still fails to address the problems Anakin has through that framework. But that makes sesne for his character, as I went over in my original post. So still a firm 5 star remaster. Also, I am still a proud nerd. That hasn't and will never change.
Anakin: "Nerd" Obi-wan: "You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you!" But also, one could certainly argue that Palpatine and perhaps the sith more broadly are utility monsters. Palpatine chafed under the yoke of democracy, laws, and the very existence of the jedi order. Anakin too had grown to see all these things as extreme negatives by the time of Operation Knightfall. Meanwhile, Palpatine's utility was immeasurably increased after Order 66 and the rise of the Empire. It seems likely that similar arguments would hold for Darth Maul and many sith of the past. Thus, the classic trap of a utility monster render's Master Kenobi's analysis of Anakin's position untenable. Moreover, Master Kenobi's deontologic analysis is clearly flawed when analyzed from a sith's point of view. In Kant's classical formulation, the primary tenant is to act such that the moral rule you follow would result in a preferable world if applied universally. From a sith perspective, one would prefer a world in which the attainment and preservation of unlimited power is itself the only important end. Master Kenobi's rebbutal only holds ground under virtue ethics. But one must prove his highlighted virtues are correct before accepting this arm of his argument.
I like the use of Hayden’s real voice as an indicator that this is “Elseworlds” to the continuity of “Himbo-PhD Anakin”, just in case him being taciturn wasn’t enough.
Either this whole video was made out of a philosophical conversation between two people about star wars or just to the the “moral high ground” pun in the end. Either way it’s beautiful.
Many are his names in the world. Darth Thesis to the sith, Darth Academicus to the Jedi Order, Darth Nerdius to O-Big-One. The senate calls him Darth Informatius, Padme Darth Genius & his children Dutch Father.
To be fair, the late stage Jedi Order did move away from simply becoming an accessible local monastic tradition supporting local communities, to mainly propping up unjust and corrupt Galactic Republic status quo politicians, policies, and institutions because the Jedi assumed wrongly that the Galactic Republic was intrinsically a force of good needing preservation at all costs which required them to sacrifice their personal ethical obligations to the common galactic citizen for loyalty and preservation of the state. That impossibly precarious situation of aligning themselves to the dubious state entities and power structures gained them a lot of funding and influence with the Senate, but at the cost of a greater rift between the Jedi and the State as aloof institutions and the common person languishing in corporate sector hellscapes or feudal/criminal despotic regimes.
That's not entirely unfair, but at the same time it must have looked to them like the alternative was letting the people of the republic fend for themselves, especially once the clone wars came about. Which I believe both old and new canon have presented as being at least partially engineered by the Sith to put the Jedi into a situation with no good choices.
@@LC-sc3en While the Jedi never stole children (ignore all that Acolyte bullshit), there was definitely the aloof mysticism of the Jedi both as an institution and interpersonally in how they conducted themselves that led to a lack of transparency with the general public, and by extension fear by misunderstanding what the Jedi were truly all about by the common people that was quite prevalent throughout the Galaxy. If you're interested, the best example of this is in the book Outbound Flight by Timothy Zahn, where a Jedi sponsored exploration project involving a colonial ship fleet heading towards the unknown space and eventually to a new Galaxy results in this dynamic playing out quite interestingly, as the project lead, Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth, who is slowly turning to the Dark Side, begins to slowly oppress and rule the would be isolated colonists against the Jedi code as professed by the opposing Jedi Masters on board. It's an interesting look at what fail safes were in place both in the order, by Republic law, and by customs how Jedi were meant to conduct themselves both in Galactic affairs as advisors and not rulers, and towards testing for and taking on would be Jedi from populations, and how through C'baoth's manipulations all these safe guards begin to fail and be undermined when you have a Jedi in sufficient power and with enough of a differing philosophy from generally established practices to begin going rogue and the resulting chaos which ensues. Definitely one of the best reads out there outside of Darth Plagueis!
@@rhel373 Oh absolutely, the novel Darth Plagueis is one of the best Star Wars books out there (I'd recommend the top notch audible edition), and it goes into exactly how, why, and big picture what the Sith did secretly over centuries to begin eroding the Jedi as an institution and destabilizing the Republic for its eventual downfall in some future opportune moment. An amazing work that really ties all the politics and social commentary together nicely for Sith, Jedi, and general Republic politics
“That’s not a logical insult as the personality traits typically associated with being a nerd would not necessarily impact your ability to be a skilled duellist”
The Sith were universally evil while the Jedi strove to do good and protect people, albeit imperfectly. That's why they were almost universally respected (except by the criminals and slavers they fought against) until Palpatine twisted the galaxy's perception of them during the Clone Wars.
Who decides what is good and what is evil? Good and evil aren't even opposites. The opposite of good is bad, and one can be good at being evil. From the perspective of the Jedi, the Sith are deontologically evil, no reason needed. And as Nietzsche observed, everyone believes themselves to be good. By the same token, the Sith believe themselves to be a force for good, which makes the Jedi evil for opposing them. We should not accept the assertions of the Jedi about their moral superiority vis-a-vis the Sith, or vice versa. Instead, we should analyse both parties on their merits independently and consider further alternatives. The Jedi believe themselves to be good because they follow the will of the Force. This presents a problem: Is the will of the Force good? If so, any atrocity, from genocide to war to religious persecution are justified by declaring it the will of the Force. (And success in the matter serves as proof; essentially this is just "might makes right" with extra steps. Especially in light of the Force being subject to the will of the Jedi.) According to the axiom that the Force is good, the Sith successfully destroying the Jedi Order by executing Order 66 is proof that the Jedi were opposed to the will of the Force, and that the Sith were following it. This means that, if we accept the Jedi axiom, the Jedi are shown to be evil. As previously mentioned, we should not accept this axiom. Instead, we have to assume that the Force has no will of its own and is neutral in these matters. From the perspective of natural law, "might makes right" is an untenable position. It is inherently unfair to children and the elderly and others, promoting injustice. As shown, the attitude of "following the will of the Force" (Deus Vult by another name) is just that, making the Jedi not necessarily evil, but morally bankrupt according to Kantian ethics. Under utilitarian ethics, which ignores intent and only cares about outcome, club law could be justified if it resulted in a greater good. However, Kenobi's utilitarian assertion that the Jedi have alleviated suffering is not supported by any evidence. That the Jedi have caused suffering can't be denied either. ("The Force has great power over the feeble minded." "Train him I cannot, too old he is." "Lucky for us, Droids don't think.") From a utilitarian perspective, the Jedi are bad people. The Jedi being bad, evil, hypocrites, does not mean the Sith are good. The Sith are a persecuted religious minority. Little is known about the tenets of their theology. Their political enemies are not a trustworthy source. We can only judge them by their actions. Mostly they died a lot. That's neither here nor there. Only from the perspective of "the will of the Force" is this evidence that they were not following it. Which, I should emphasize, is not the same as opposing it. Absent a Sith order, we can only judge the Sith individually.
@@WinterLady87I don’t know but I can’t say the Jedi Order is morally clean when they blindly support the Republic. A Republic that has committed or abetted multiple genocides and perpetuates a slave economy in the Outer Rims for the enrichment of the Core Systems.
@@davidwuhrer6704 To me, it seems that you see the Force as a deity (as in your Deus Vult comparison), but I think it's better described as a mystical energy, something that guides the universe towards certain outcomes and values. In this view, the "will of the Force" is more similar to the "trends of nature" than to the desires of an external being/creator. So, when we examine your main question--whether the will of the Force is good--we have to answer three further questions: 1) What framework are we analyzing morality from? 2) What does the will of the Force do? 3) What actually is the will of the Force? 1) This is essentially the same as your very first question: "who decides what is good and what is evil?" If you don't mind, I would like to redefine "good" and "evil" as opposites, where “good” indicates a positive moral object and “evil” a negative moral object. The ideas of “good” and “bad” then can be replaced with "effective" and "ineffective." Thus, someone can be effective or ineffective at being good or evil. While you don't answer this question directly (and I'm not sure the best way to answer it), it is clear that you think we should not take for granted that the will of the Force is good, and we should not treat it as our moral framework. I completely agree, and perhaps we can discuss morality from intuition or utilitarian theory (as in the video and your discussion) unless you’d prefer a different framework. 2) You seem to assume that the will of the Force directly causes all things, as though every single thing that happens is within the Force's will. As stated in my first paragraph, I argue that the will of the Force is not a sole causal force, but more of a tendency of the universe (if the Jedi are right, this tendency is good, but I will not take this for granted). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’ve heard that the Jedi and the Sith themselves agree that the Sith act against the will of the Force; from the Sith's POV, they do this because they believe the Force is evil based on their own philosophy. The Sith manipulate the Force in ways that act against its will. Conversely, the Jedi promote the flourishing and fulfilment of the Force's will (again, not to say the Force’s will is good). In this view, we can agree that some will attempt justify atrocities in the name of the Force and point to success in their actions as proof of their justification, but most would not find their justifications convincing unless they firmly believed that the perpetrator had perfect (or sufficient) knowledge of the Force's will. I do not think the destruction of the Jedi Order shows that the Jedi are evil (as you already rejected), nor does it validate the assumption that the Force has no will or is ineffective. Rather, shows that evil can succeed with inattentiveness and insufficient knowledge of the Force. Thus, the axiom that this Force is good should not be outright rejected on this basis. 3) If the Force exercised compulsive power, the power to determine every action in the universe, then everything that happened was in the Force’s will. As I’ve said though, I don’t think this to be true; not everything that happens is the will of the Force. My argument gets tricky when you mix in powers such as foresight and prophesy, but I think it possible that the will of the Force can determine an end without determining the means. The Chosen One prophesy can specify that a Jedi will come along and destroy the Sith without describing all the intermediate details. I don’t know the full description of the prophesy, but I think it’s conceivable that it could’ve been fulfilled without the destruction of the Jedi Order or in a number of other ways. It’s possible that the will of the Force dictates the end states and best paths without directly dictating how things happen. One last thing I’d like to touch on: I’m not sure how your examples ("The Force has great power over the feeble minded." "Train him I cannot, too old he is." "Lucky for us, Droids don't think.") demonstrate that the Jedi have caused suffering or that they are evil from a utilitarian perspective. I can think of at least one example that would be more illuminating (ie. had you brought up leaving Shmi Skywalker in slavery to show that the Jedi don’t really care about taking down oppressive systems), but more elaboration on your points would be appreciated. In short, I agree that we should not evaluate the will of the Force as good without greater outside consideration. However, I disagree in your portrayal of the Force as an ultimate being which dictates every move and your conclusions that the Force has no actual will, that those attempting to follow the will of the Force are morally bankrupt, and that “might makes right” is the essence of religious philosophy in Star Wars (which you didn’t directly state but implicated).
How kind of Anakin to let Obi Wan finish, now we just need the video in which he responds to the philosophical position of his master, maybe by citing his thesis
We must keep in mind how respectful Anakin was during this discussion, as he patiently waited for Obi Wan to complete making all of his points before thoroughly ripping them apart with one simple use of the Nerd Theorem.
As an aside, I'm pretty sure that the original upload of this video was the first video of yours that I watched. Im glad youtube randomly recommended it to me because the 'Anakin Shrugged' star wars verse is just a gift that keeps on giving! Thanks for bringing some joy to my day everytime you upload and I hope life treats you well 😊
While I fundamentally disagree with this stance, I do see why someone would think it, given that prophecy and the will of the force seems to strip people of their free will, but I'd argue that it does not, as you can take many different paths to arrive at the same destination: 1+4=5 - 8-3=5, not to mention that the force only wishes to preserve itself, and is self preservation evil? would me or you be "evil" for taking medicine to cure our aliments? I attribute this to a fundamental misunderstanding of the force, it's will, and what the force means on the part of Kreia and all the others who adhere to her philosophy
@@ZomboidManiaMoreover, the force is at least partially comprised by the will and lives of all living things. It is a completely moral concept or being. One could argue that all morals are derived from it, similar to how an omnipotent and benevolent God would be the axiom of an objective morality.
@ZomboidMania I think it's less what the will is actively doing and more the fact that they don't appreciate an effectively omniscient, largely incomprehensible will lording over them. The agenda of the will of the force could literally be making pancakes and I'm pretty sure kreia would still want it gone. Sure, it just wants to exist, but is that good for everyone? That's kreia's point. Regardless of its own Intentions, the force is used for all manner of evils, just as it is for good. If its existence hurts countless people, and all it can offer is the hope that some people will use it to help, why let it exist if you have the power to stop it? Enter kreia.
@@ZomboidManiaBy seeking to preserve itself the Force seeks to preserve all life and the preservation of life is generally considered to be morally good
@@ZomboidMania The sheer number of times throughout galactic history where the Force's dark side has caused massive deaths and even extinction of entire sentient races stands as a great beacon compared to its ability to help through the light. In most recorded incidents, the Light Side acts by stopping the Dark Side after it has already committed atrocities and expresses the desire to commit more. To the best of my ability, I cannot think of a single Light Side technique that preemptively saves the lives the Dark Side plans to eradicate.
I don't have a degree in debate philosophy but it's pretty self-evident. Especially if considering the Jedi Order as a whole, and not their recent (in the scale of history) corruption by Darth Sidious
@@defiantnight2668 But as an easy counterexample, consider the Jedi's ongoing material support for Tatooine's institution of industrial slavery, from which they purchased their messiah with a goddamn podracing bet. They actively treated Anakin like property, and were surprised when he grew up and said, "This sucks, actually."
@@harrisonfackrell as a retort to this point, I'd like to bring up the republic law from the valorem chancellorship disallowing the jedi from starting conflicts without the republic senates explicit support, that was instated post jedi civil war as a way to not draw the republic into any more religious conflicts. id propose that if the jedi were legally able too they would have attempted to eliminate the Tatooine slave trade and other morally evil markets across the galaxy, however their hands are tied by a beurocracy they could not escape without causing more harm than good. as for Anakin's treatment by the jedi order while it may seem harsh I'd like to bring up that a large point of the poor treatment he got from the jedi order (the council and mace windu in particular) was due to his own actions and personality. a jedi may leave the order at any time, 20 have done so by the time of attack of the clones already, it is by no means disallowed. Anakin could leave at any point without consequence (of course he stays due to wanting access to the holocron vault with knowledge restricted to only jedi masters. knowledge that he believes could help save Padme. however, this reasoning is unknown to the jedi order) but instead he decides to stay in the order despite clearly not agreeing with its ideals and in most cases actively going against them. from the perspective of the jedi order Anakin was already allowed into the order despite rules wise him being too old to be allowed in and has done almost nothing but further mock their principles for almost his entire adult life and career. it is only natural they would grow to dislike him and attempt to discipline him for his actions within the bounds of the order.
@@harrisonfackrell right the Jedi monopolize the force and kidnap children from their parents at a young age to indoctrinate them into their emotionally suppressive theology. Where they aren’t given support for dealing with their negative emotions before being able to let them go but just told that to feel it or want to feel it is dangerous. There isn’t anything wrong with Bhuddist style release from desire as a personal philosophy but when you don’t allow or address how difficult it is and expect perfection from children and young adults in this area seems borderline emotionally abusive
This reminds me of Skyrim. In Skyrim we are told that when a dragon fights it uses its voice. So a fight between two dragons could simply be a great debate.
The problem with that assertion is that it is completely contradicted by what the game shows us. It's a great worldbuilding concept, but what we see and hear as we play is: Dragonborn: "FORCE BALANCE PUSH!" Dragon: "FIRE INFERNO SUN!" It's basically two weebs calling out their jutsus at each other while they slap-fight.
It's similar in Tolkien's mythology to, the world was made from song magic so any great magical battle is going to involve people singing at each other, Sauron flat out had a magical rap battle with an elf king.
The funniest thing was anakin boxing obi wan THE ENTIRE TIME he was talking, it is so easy to miss if you dont focus on it, but they were working their way towards the high ground all along.
"You're just mad I got through all of that without a single use of the word 'dichotomy'" "Just because that's true doesn't mean your own argument was correct."
3:45 The Force doesn't tend towards the destruction of the Dark Side, it tends towards balance. Which leads to a constant and infinite push and shove conflict between the Light and the Dark that has lasted for at least 300,000 years. This was Kreia's argument against the Force.
"from my point of view, the jedi are evil!" "sorry anakin, i was remembering all those youngling you slaughtered, what were you saying?" Edit: lot of people trying to justify child murder in the replies, jesus 0_o
"From my point of view, the jedi are evil!" "You murdered an entire tribe of sandpeople in revenge for your mother's death with no regard to any individual involvement of said crime, potential mitigating circumstances nor regard to any relevant laws, greater ethical frameworks or any rational concept of proportionate punishment. Assuming that you believe yourself to be either morally "good" or at least anything other than "evil" then your actions (involving multiple instances of mass slaughter and acts of destabilising governments) is of greater detriment to the well-being of countless others than those you accuse the jedi council of performing, and as such cannot be considered evil. Should you accept that the Sith (and by extension yourself) are "evil" then you either have to believe that the jedi council are of an "evil" greater than your own, are of equivalent malevolence to the Sith but in philosophical opposition or that anything that is "good" (or "not evil" since the concept of a binary morality is debatable) is a form of "evil" merely by existing in opposition to your own morality. The concept that the jedi order serves as a form of greater "evil" than that of you and the Sith is ungrounded given that your actions, as mentioned, have caused more suffering to others than that of the jedi order and even at its most flawed, its corruption, hedonism, isolationism and militarism has done less harm to others in countless generations than the emergent Sith has in less than one. The view that the jedi are of equivalent "evil" (while still dubious a claim) presents the two force factions of jedi vs sith as a conflict between to ideological groups that are "evil" in which case your objection to the jedi has no basis in morality but instead in some combination of politics, ideology or emotion since you are siding with "evil" regardless. If you accept that as an "evil" agent anything that is "good" (or at least "non-evil") is a form of evil to you implies that concepts such as "good" and "evil" are strictly issues of individual perspective. This is a flawed judgment on two fronts. First of all, the concept of "good" and "evil" are mostly universal transcending species, culture and time meaning that this morality is either objective or sociological. For convenience let us assume it is sociological as not all individuals and races adhere to a morality system and that what is considered "good" or "evil" is prone to shift over time or show differences between cultures (an objective morality necessitates an explanation of this continual variance which for brevity's sake I will not discuss as it's not directly relevant), and as such your perspective of what constitutes evil runs contrary to that of society at large. The second front is that to adopt the perspective that "good" and "evil" are fundamentally defined by the values of the individual is self defeating as if you believe yourself to be "evil" then anything you would consider "evil" must be at least morally aligned to your sensibilities and as such your opposition to the jedi for being "evil", again, cannot be moral as you, and the Sith faction you serve, are "evil" which you consider to be more in line with your values. If you oppose the jedi because you consider them to be "evil" then you have to consider yourself as not "evil", in which you have to compare yourself and your actions to the jedi and find them more morally justifiable which, as mentioned, is unlikely given your recent actions unless you can find a way of deeming war, autocracy, betrayal, child slaughter, genocide and destabilising the political structure of a galaxy as morally "good" rather than "evil" or pragmatically necessary. There is the outside possibility that you consider yourself "amoral" (either that no morality truly exists, or that you don't adhere to an objective or socially driven moral code) but that, too, is unlikely given that an amoral person cannot object to anything on moral grounds. On all fronts your statement is unsound and is a ludicrous as those red contact lenses you're wearing."
I actually mouthed the words "I have the MORAL high ground" as they were said.... Anikin's theosis on the dichotomy of real or parodic memories is strong in the force
Considering that Jedi aren't supposed to own personal effects, I'm beginning to suspect Yoda's pension for shoving people into lockers means that he is _also_ purchasing lockers to place around the Jedi facilities.
Sorry to be that guy, but that's "penchant", not "pension". Yoda's pension didn't serve him well in his old age, if his house on Dagobah is anything to go by. And yes, I must now append the following: 🤓 Good evening to you.
@@fortello7219 From my point of view, that guy is evil! ... Yeah, a fair point well made. I will retire to the Planet of the Nitpickers to wallow in my shame with the rest of those guys.
I expected Anakin to jump into lava on his own, just so he wouldn't need to listen to Obi-Wan's monologue any longer. And Obi-Wan is spitting FACTS. It isn't possible to be a Sith and a good person.
This is probably the greatest star wars media thing I've ever watched. Shitposting aside, it's also a rather execellent refuetal to sith simps that somehow think the sith are good people or that jedi are evil
@@michaelavery5618 tbf, in legends its pretty well estabilished the dark side of the force corrupts everything it touches. You kind of get blinded of everything as you seek more power, immortality and etc.
4:33 don't forget that if we look at it mathematically and consider strong and weak a dichotomy that: if someone from the strong half kills someone from the weak half then the median will shift meaning someone who was considered strong is now weak and therefore now need be killed as well even though he was considered strong before and therefore was doing the killing. (There is some sort of irony in here). If you now let this cycle continue you will end in a situation with only one survivor The Strongest and at that point there is no one to compare to meaning the terms strong and weak lose all meaning and the dichotomy falls apart destroyed the sith code in the process. (there is also some other philosophical message/meaning in here somewere which someone else needs to find as i didn't study Philosophie and therefore don't know enough about what the message could be and also someone need to finish my line of thinking as i have no idea what the sith code falling in on itself could truly mean)
Kinda reminds me of the darkness and the concept of the final shape from destiny. A constant culling of weakness until the universe itself has been cut into a shape suited only for now-obselete violence.
@@BigWarthog no the amount of strong and weak would stay the same who is considered strong and weak may change depending if they surpassed the strong and the average may increase but there will always be a weaker and a stronger half
@sargeantreyna2286 Well, to be fair a master can choose to be exceedingly kind to his or her slaves. It just depends on the master. It's not much better but it is better.
I wasn’t sure there was going to even be a punchline this time… it was all a real good essay on morality from different perspectives and beliefs… …and it culminated in calling Obi-Wan a nerd. And it was worth it.
I must attest that Obi-Wan is invalidly accusing Anakin of immorality by killing children. He merely told them his thesis with side tangents, they choose to throw themselves out of the window he did not force them in any way. Also the best part of this video is when Obi Wan had his first sad moment remembering Yoda called him a nerd right as the sad music started I couldn't help but notice 5 people liked the video in real time.
In my experience I find that whenever someone talks about the utilitarian moral philosophy model, most people skip over the important part of that school of thought: defining how that utility is calculated. Instead people just assume that all people have a very similar utility function, one that is symmetrical (as in one where gaining something is equivalent in utility gain as losing it is equivalent in utility loss) and universal (as in it applies to everyone equally from any perspective) at the very least. However, in all actuality, defining that utility function is the most important part. Any supposition made using a utility function you don't completely agree with can be rejected simply because you don't agree on the utility function. And, because high utility is considered to be good, while low utility is bad, the utilitarian argument is thus reduced back to arguing the question of "what is good" (which is the question this school of thought is seemingly trying to answer already), but this time we are also trying to asign numbers to everything. And thus, given our limited knowledge of the workings of existence and our finite computational capacity, I find the utilitarian argument to be nothing more than an attempt to mislead: to answer the question of "what is good" with nothing more, but a question of "what is good numerically".
This was amazing! Professor Kenobi at his finest. Can we have a whole Anakin vs Obi Wan debate spanning their whole battle!? Doesn’t have to be all in one go but I fee like Anakin and Padme should have their philosophical spat, then Obiwan joins in, and then the two of them debate with Anakin making his opening argument in the first main segment. Meanwhile Yoda is trying to get his secret stash of drugs from Palpatine’s desk
The idea of Yoda shoving someone into a locker sounds absurd until i remembered that, if anyone can telekinetically shove someone into something, its Yoda.
This. Is. So. Good! I love that this is a legends version, an alternative universe, since Anakin makes no arguments. But we can see the implied origins of The Thesis and that's perfect. I can't wait to see the canon version!
I love how it pauses at 3:37 implying that although Anakin is not engaging in this debate at the same level as Obi-Wan, this moment of awkward silence is basically Anakin calling him out on a fallacy he was making, in the only way Vader could.
![Obi-Wan is bullied by Yoda [Legends] [Remastered]](/img/n.gif)
There were an annoying number of technical issues on this one, I tried to edit around them as best I could but apologise for any visual weirdness. It should also be noted that this video is Legends continuity to the broader Anakin Shrugged universe.
Naturally, that will receive its own version, which will feature our beautiful erudite boy laying out his own arguments.
As this is the first time I've remastered an older video, I kept the script and format largely intact with a few minor changes here and there, it's an older script of mine and I like to think I've improved as a writer by quite a bit since, but it has its charms. There will be a full remake of this at some point featuring a thesis-touting Anakin.
it's great you made it work and timing was good in the end ahah
what about yoda vs sidious in the thesis verse? I think that is going to be very cool
Still waiting for a video on Yodas Drug problems xD
Your vocabulary makes my brain hard
@@OldFarmerJoe1 I do owe you that, I've replied on your original comment asking for it, please do let me know the form you want the video to take (if you have any preference)
And Jedi order wonders why Anakin is obsessed with Thesis and such when he has THIS guy as a master
Yoda tried to stop obi-wan, but shoving him in a locker wasn’t enough
@@BananaWasTakenyoda was too busy being in a meth-induced coma
@@XykloneHLhe’s always in a drug induced coma
@@XykloneHL the only reason he changes drugs so often is to avoid tolerance so he can keep getting into drug induced comas
@@XykloneHL well, he's ALWAYS in drug-induced coma!
"I didn't kill those younglings."
"Anakin, they defenestrated themselves one after another like lemmings after listening to your thesis."
LMAO I CANT
The mental image of a wave youngling hurling themselves out a window from the same perspective as that one lemming video is now a mental image that has been seared into my mind.
Isn't defenestration throwing someone else out of the window and fenestration throwing yourself out of the window?
@@hufflepuffvoldida7977 Defenestrating yourself also works. I use that word instead of another certain word because BabyTube keeps deleting my comment.
@@hufflepuffvoldida7977auto defenestration is throwing yourself out of a window
Wait, Obi-Wan never complained about Anakin's thesis... HE MADE ANAKIN LIKE THIS. It's all so clear now
are we SURE he isn't a sith, seeing what happened with qui gon??
"I understand why Yoda thought you were a nerd!"
After all Obi-Wan is the Negotiator (won't stop yapping) and Anakin is the Hero With No Fear (relentlessly engages in hypotheticals).
Vader: "When we last met, I was but the learner. Now my thesis is superior."
Obi-Wan: "Only superior as trash, Darth."
Obi-Wan is one of the worst father figures based on outcome. Not as bad as Heihachi Mishima but in the same league.
“Axiom” is to Obi-Wan what “Dichotomy” is to Anakin.
Interesting dichotomy.
Dialectics.
It's axiomatic.
“I sense a disturbance…even now they are debating.” -palpatine probably as he takes stock in his life
30 years later:" Greetings Obi Wan. I was once, but the student. Now, I am the Doctor."
"If so confident in your argument are you, why don't a source, you provide?"
@@zoro115-s6b "MY SOURCE IS I MADE IT THE FUCK UP!" - Another infamous senator consumed by the Dark Side
@@ninochaosdrache3189 The Doctor? Doctor Who?
@@ninochaosdrache3189"Let me guess vader you finally have a counter point to my argument but while you were figuring out how to do so I have made counter point to yours so your move"
“Ewan, the line was: ‘Well then you are lost’”
Being called a "nerd" by none other than the Master of Dichotomy himself? Ouch!
Nahnahnah see, this is LEGENDS Anakin. This isn't our Thesis Boi, that's modern Canon Anakin.
@@MastaDRD Yep, also cause he sounds like movie Anakin, not 2008 Clone Wars
@@MastaDRDOr maybe Legends Anakin is the one from the original TToDPtW video who didn't actually know anything about it
Time Traveler: *moves a chair
The Timeline: *"Its Over Anakin! I Have Your Thesis!"*
Seals flexing his philosophy degree as usual
I mean, this degree was completely useless. Until now.
@@manthe3711it would keep being useless if he became a philosopher
But the real dichotomy to his argument is the Axiom of him getting shoved into a locker for being a nerd. 😂
Years of Academy training. Wasted.
But can it help prove that seals are indeed good?
The punchline at the end was brilliant and I wasn’t expecting it.
An inspired re-purposing of the best prequel meme.
"It's over Anakin, I have the moral high ground."
way funnier than it should've been.
5:05 says “Mr Thesis”
This was George's original vision, but for the sake of mass appeal, he went with the flash lightsaber fight instead.
@lordly123 I guarantee you that the epic lightsaber fights accompanied by dramatic musical scores were for mass appeal
@lordly123 It had the flashy lightsaber fights for masses, the politics for nerds, the world building for people who likes expanded worlds, etc etc etc. The prequels elevate the OT so much.
@lordly123 removing Darth Jarjar was definitely for masss appeal
He could have done both. This monologue could be spoken during the fight or after it while he is burning alive. Probably both.
Which is why most of his work was thrown away.
The idea that these 2 are having this civil discussion while fighting each other somehow makes this more hilarious to me
It's like the fight in The Princess Bride with Andre The Giant.
Why did the line.
"Therefore Anakin!, I will analyse the Jedi order utilising utilitarian ethics"
Make me burst out laughing.
Because he was using utilitarian philosophy at least two sentences before he said that already?
@@davidwuhrer6704 doesnt matter jedi are basically space jews thats why George wrote it that way, theyre supposed to be the "stewards" of society but allow massive economic inequalities and slavery, they simply pretend their system of governance is the only system there could possibly be, and just perpetuate injustice. We are supposed to notice this logical contradiction in their dogma leading to his mother's death , rejection of personal love, and mass injustice.
@@davidwuhrer6704No, he didn’t? He started with deontology and then did virtue ethics. *Then*, he said this line.
Dooku would love to debate Kenobi on this topic. By being enforcers of a corrupt oligarchic republic, the Jedi have caused major harm from an utilitarian point of view, and whilst autocracy is not the answer, neither is preserving the status quo.
Ask the citizens of the Coruscant underworld what they think of the Jedi. Or those of the Outer Rim. There's a reason why the Separatists were able to garner the popular support they did.
This needs a video on its own when Dooku visited Obi-Wan imprisoned
@@matianlong7907he obviously wanted to turn him, and he thought that the only way to do that would be to spill the beans on Sidious. If he believed him and accepted his "Qui-gon would approve" message, then he gets a new apprentice to help him dethrone Sidious. Alternatively, Obi-wan either doesn't believe him or simply rejects him, and it doesn't matter because he's presumably going to he dead soon anyway.
I mean, most of them don't actually *have* any opinions of the Jedi Order as a whole. They left because, yes, the Republic as a whole was a bit of a problem but outside of people like Dooku himself, I don't think *most* of the separatists viewed the Jedi as Enforcers of that... at least, before he charisma-checked in their direction. But by and large, most of the outer rim doesn't really hate the Jedi so much as not have opinions on them due to their low numbers and the Reformation chaining them to the direction of the Senate. But where they actually go and are *seen* going? People usually like them for most of the same reasons Obi states in the video.
... Also, aside from all that, Dooku is well aware of why the Order is fighting the war (and it isn't agreeing it *should* be fought), if he isn't then Sidious must've mindfucked him when he convinced him to cooperate because Dooku *knows* the ramifications if the Order refused to do so.
“Do it.”
“…I shouldn’t.”
“You _should,_ unless you want to be bored to tears by his philosophical balderdash!”
I mean, that's kind of why Kinobi never beats Dooku, now isn't it?
“You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! *That makes me feel angry!”*
Is it bad I read this in the Robot Devils voice?
Ah yes, the writing paradox that is stupid because, I have literally seen people say the most disgusting things about themselves in broad day light to everyone without a care in the world.
@@vexspacey2644 something being disgusting isn't even in the same ballpark as saying your emotional state out loud. Unless you consider "I am gassy" an emotion.
@@vexspacey2644sometimes reality doesn’t make good fiction. Random stuff can happen all the time in real life, but that doesn’t mean that Deus ex Machina is a good trope or that you can overlook cause and effect.
Plus pretty much every rule has exceptions anyway, and a skilled enough writer can create a fantastic story whilst ignoring every piece of common writing advice.
@@BananaWasTaken imagine if ww2 was a fictional story how would you feel reading that german forces simply walked around the Maginot line
Not only does it lack philosophical grounding, it lacks philosophical HIGH Grounding!
How he hell did you become just as much a scholar as Thesis Himbo himself?
But what if Anakin is a pro-mortalist on negative utilitarian grounds? By those axioms, would the Jedi order be evil?
@@Ubersupersloth certainly. Indeed, there's a number of ways to define the Jedi as evil, depending upon your axioms
@@sealsaregood5146 You could also take the "Senator Armstrong" view and argue against the Jedi Position since it amounts to a denial of living beings agency and will.
That is to say, living beings desire to dominate each other. The strong dominating the weak is preferable in utilitarian terms than neither dominating, since being dominated is less negative than the positives granted through domination (The primary source of suffering in being dominated being that you are not dominating, but the Jedi position also causes this). By preventing that domination, nobody gets what they want, and a small evil is avoided at the cost of a large good.
You could argue that the negative utilitarianism necessary to oppose the Sith Code is "Evil" in that case.
Constraining the weak by dominating them reduces utility for them, but increases it for the strong. Constraining the strong from domination reduces their utility by the same amount, without comparable benefit to the weak. Thus, the Jedi are evil.
@@officechairpotato Interestingly enough, as I recall, I think that's more or less Palpatine's personal philosophy. I think in general, as an archetype, it makes for a pretty good villain philosophy in media, as the foundational axiom is generally quite antithetical to the generic heroic philosophy.
@@officechairpotato ah yes. senator armstrong. if only anakin rejected both and did what he wanted.
we live in the worst timeline, where philosophy majors actually like Star Wars
I remember having a pretty popular post on the original video. I can't help but feel my post's focus on virtue ethics got it included in the remake and heartily approve.
I mean, Obi-Wan still fails to address the problems Anakin has through that framework. But that makes sesne for his character, as I went over in my original post. So still a firm 5 star remaster.
Also, I am still a proud nerd. That hasn't and will never change.
@moonblaze2713 I do believe it was, and I thank you for that, it was fun to include it as another perspective!
I loved the "The chosen one!" followed by a long silent stare.
Pretty much destroyed Obi-Wan's argument right there.
I like to imagine that while they are silent, then Obi-Wan laughs. He just scratches his head
Anakin: "Nerd"
Obi-wan: "You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you!"
But also, one could certainly argue that Palpatine and perhaps the sith more broadly are utility monsters. Palpatine chafed under the yoke of democracy, laws, and the very existence of the jedi order. Anakin too had grown to see all these things as extreme negatives by the time of Operation Knightfall. Meanwhile, Palpatine's utility was immeasurably increased after Order 66 and the rise of the Empire. It seems likely that similar arguments would hold for Darth Maul and many sith of the past. Thus, the classic trap of a utility monster render's Master Kenobi's analysis of Anakin's position untenable.
Moreover, Master Kenobi's deontologic analysis is clearly flawed when analyzed from a sith's point of view. In Kant's classical formulation, the primary tenant is to act such that the moral rule you follow would result in a preferable world if applied universally. From a sith perspective, one would prefer a world in which the attainment and preservation of unlimited power is itself the only important end.
Master Kenobi's rebbutal only holds ground under virtue ethics. But one must prove his highlighted virtues are correct before accepting this arm of his argument.
I like the use of Hayden’s real voice as an indicator that this is “Elseworlds” to the continuity of “Himbo-PhD Anakin”, just in case him being taciturn wasn’t enough.
Sounded to me like 2D Clone Wars Anakin, but I could be wrong.
Either this whole video was made out of a philosophical conversation between two people about star wars or just to the the “moral high ground” pun in the end. Either way it’s beautiful.
“I understand why Yoda thought you were a nerd.”
Kinda rich coming from Darth Thesis.
Many are his names in the world. Darth Thesis to the sith, Darth Academicus to the Jedi Order, Darth Nerdius to O-Big-One. The senate calls him Darth Informatius, Padme Darth Genius & his children Dutch Father.
Dutch Father @@SindarinElealar
Anakin: "Stop it Obi Wan! I Kant take it anymore!"
Ah, yes, The Negotiator!
We've been waiting this.
He's not the "leaps into violence at the smallest provocation"-ater, that's for sure
To be fair, the late stage Jedi Order did move away from simply becoming an accessible local monastic tradition supporting local communities, to mainly propping up unjust and corrupt Galactic Republic status quo politicians, policies, and institutions because the Jedi assumed wrongly that the Galactic Republic was intrinsically a force of good needing preservation at all costs which required them to sacrifice their personal ethical obligations to the common galactic citizen for loyalty and preservation of the state.
That impossibly precarious situation of aligning themselves to the dubious state entities and power structures gained them a lot of funding and influence with the Senate, but at the cost of a greater rift between the Jedi and the State as aloof institutions and the common person languishing in corporate sector hellscapes or feudal/criminal despotic regimes.
That's not entirely unfair, but at the same time it must have looked to them like the alternative was letting the people of the republic fend for themselves, especially once the clone wars came about. Which I believe both old and new canon have presented as being at least partially engineered by the Sith to put the Jedi into a situation with no good choices.
I bet the Jedi also weren’t that popular with the common people for being child thieves.
@@LC-sc3en While the Jedi never stole children (ignore all that Acolyte bullshit), there was definitely the aloof mysticism of the Jedi both as an institution and interpersonally in how they conducted themselves that led to a lack of transparency with the general public, and by extension fear by misunderstanding what the Jedi were truly all about by the common people that was quite prevalent throughout the Galaxy.
If you're interested, the best example of this is in the book Outbound Flight by Timothy Zahn, where a Jedi sponsored exploration project involving a colonial ship fleet heading towards the unknown space and eventually to a new Galaxy results in this dynamic playing out quite interestingly, as the project lead, Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth, who is slowly turning to the Dark Side, begins to slowly oppress and rule the would be isolated colonists against the Jedi code as professed by the opposing Jedi Masters on board.
It's an interesting look at what fail safes were in place both in the order, by Republic law, and by customs how Jedi were meant to conduct themselves both in Galactic affairs as advisors and not rulers, and towards testing for and taking on would be Jedi from populations, and how through C'baoth's manipulations all these safe guards begin to fail and be undermined when you have a Jedi in sufficient power and with enough of a differing philosophy from generally established practices to begin going rogue and the resulting chaos which ensues. Definitely one of the best reads out there outside of Darth Plagueis!
@@rhel373 Oh absolutely, the novel Darth Plagueis is one of the best Star Wars books out there (I'd recommend the top notch audible edition), and it goes into exactly how, why, and big picture what the Sith did secretly over centuries to begin eroding the Jedi as an institution and destabilizing the Republic for its eventual downfall in some future opportune moment. An amazing work that really ties all the politics and social commentary together nicely for Sith, Jedi, and general Republic politics
Only Obi-Wan could ground Anakin with such philosophical debate!
Soresu moral defensiveness will always prevail over anakin's clumsy djem su moral outrage powered sweeping generalisations and semantic parries.
Also Padme maybe.
Honestly, Obi-Wan's strong talking points disarmed me!
And disleged me too.
"debate"
Thanks!
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
@@sealsaregood5146i waited all year for this philosophy battle (which was set up previously when kenobi was taking philosophy classes)
Sorisu being the endurance form is on point as being THE master of sorisu makes obiwan able to endure Anakins thesis
That....,.....makes a lot of sense
😂😂
Soresu*
sense*
The awkward pause after mentioning The Chosen One Prophecy killed me 😂
Mace Windu: "So that's who he got that thesis talk from"
*cocks glocksaber.
"Gonna make a new force ghost."
I assumed having a thesis was the baseline for being a Jedi. It just happens that Anakin's was rather painful
GLOCKSABER 😂🤣🤣
@@Firebolt193 Yup. Chambered with 17 kyber crystals.
@@PlebNC LMFAO IM DEAD
Please never stop making these they scratch such a specific itch in my brain
*10 sec later*
Obi wan : soooo, how does it feel to have his limb being cut by a "nerd"?
Don’t they already do that in biology class?
“That’s not a logical insult as the personality traits typically associated with being a nerd would not necessarily impact your ability to be a skilled duellist”
Nah, Obi-Wan died of being called a nerd.
This has the same energy as finding grammatical errors in your opponent's comment, in an internet argument.
Who is truly good? The sith who commit evil, or the jedi who fail to do good? This is truly a dichotomy.
The Sith were universally evil while the Jedi strove to do good and protect people, albeit imperfectly. That's why they were almost universally respected (except by the criminals and slavers they fought against) until Palpatine twisted the galaxy's perception of them during the Clone Wars.
Who decides what is good and what is evil? Good and evil aren't even opposites. The opposite of good is bad, and one can be good at being evil.
From the perspective of the Jedi, the Sith are deontologically evil, no reason needed. And as Nietzsche observed, everyone believes themselves to be good.
By the same token, the Sith believe themselves to be a force for good, which makes the Jedi evil for opposing them.
We should not accept the assertions of the Jedi about their moral superiority vis-a-vis the Sith, or vice versa. Instead, we should analyse both parties on their merits independently and consider further alternatives.
The Jedi believe themselves to be good because they follow the will of the Force. This presents a problem: Is the will of the Force good? If so, any atrocity, from genocide to war to religious persecution are justified by declaring it the will of the Force. (And success in the matter serves as proof; essentially this is just "might makes right" with extra steps. Especially in light of the Force being subject to the will of the Jedi.)
According to the axiom that the Force is good, the Sith successfully destroying the Jedi Order by executing Order 66 is proof that the Jedi were opposed to the will of the Force, and that the Sith were following it. This means that, if we accept the Jedi axiom, the Jedi are shown to be evil.
As previously mentioned, we should not accept this axiom. Instead, we have to assume that the Force has no will of its own and is neutral in these matters.
From the perspective of natural law, "might makes right" is an untenable position. It is inherently unfair to children and the elderly and others, promoting injustice. As shown, the attitude of "following the will of the Force" (Deus Vult by another name) is just that, making the Jedi not necessarily evil, but morally bankrupt according to Kantian ethics.
Under utilitarian ethics, which ignores intent and only cares about outcome, club law could be justified if it resulted in a greater good. However, Kenobi's utilitarian assertion that the Jedi have alleviated suffering is not supported by any evidence. That the Jedi have caused suffering can't be denied either. ("The Force has great power over the feeble minded." "Train him I cannot, too old he is." "Lucky for us, Droids don't think.") From a utilitarian perspective, the Jedi are bad people.
The Jedi being bad, evil, hypocrites, does not mean the Sith are good.
The Sith are a persecuted religious minority. Little is known about the tenets of their theology. Their political enemies are not a trustworthy source. We can only judge them by their actions.
Mostly they died a lot. That's neither here nor there. Only from the perspective of "the will of the Force" is this evidence that they were not following it. Which, I should emphasize, is not the same as opposing it.
Absent a Sith order, we can only judge the Sith individually.
@@WinterLady87I don’t know but I can’t say the Jedi Order is morally clean when they blindly support the Republic. A Republic that has committed or abetted multiple genocides and perpetuates a slave economy in the Outer Rims for the enrichment of the Core Systems.
@@davidwuhrer6704 shut up
@@davidwuhrer6704 To me, it seems that you see the Force as a deity (as in your Deus Vult comparison), but I think it's better described as a mystical energy, something that guides the universe towards certain outcomes and values. In this view, the "will of the Force" is more similar to the "trends of nature" than to the desires of an external being/creator.
So, when we examine your main question--whether the will of the Force is good--we have to answer three further questions:
1) What framework are we analyzing morality from?
2) What does the will of the Force do?
3) What actually is the will of the Force?
1) This is essentially the same as your very first question: "who decides what is good and what is evil?" If you don't mind, I would like to redefine "good" and "evil" as opposites, where “good” indicates a positive moral object and “evil” a negative moral object. The ideas of “good” and “bad” then can be replaced with "effective" and "ineffective." Thus, someone can be effective or ineffective at being good or evil.
While you don't answer this question directly (and I'm not sure the best way to answer it), it is clear that you think we should not take for granted that the will of the Force is good, and we should not treat it as our moral framework. I completely agree, and perhaps we can discuss morality from intuition or utilitarian theory (as in the video and your discussion) unless you’d prefer a different framework.
2) You seem to assume that the will of the Force directly causes all things, as though every single thing that happens is within the Force's will. As stated in my first paragraph, I argue that the will of the Force is not a sole causal force, but more of a tendency of the universe (if the Jedi are right, this tendency is good, but I will not take this for granted). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’ve heard that the Jedi and the Sith themselves agree that the Sith act against the will of the Force; from the Sith's POV, they do this because they believe the Force is evil based on their own philosophy. The Sith manipulate the Force in ways that act against its will. Conversely, the Jedi promote the flourishing and fulfilment of the Force's will (again, not to say the Force’s will is good).
In this view, we can agree that some will attempt justify atrocities in the name of the Force and point to success in their actions as proof of their justification, but most would not find their justifications convincing unless they firmly believed that the perpetrator had perfect (or sufficient) knowledge of the Force's will.
I do not think the destruction of the Jedi Order shows that the Jedi are evil (as you already rejected), nor does it validate the assumption that the Force has no will or is ineffective. Rather, shows that evil can succeed with inattentiveness and insufficient knowledge of the Force. Thus, the axiom that this Force is good should not be outright rejected on this basis.
3) If the Force exercised compulsive power, the power to determine every action in the universe, then everything that happened was in the Force’s will. As I’ve said though, I don’t think this to be true; not everything that happens is the will of the Force. My argument gets tricky when you mix in powers such as foresight and prophesy, but I think it possible that the will of the Force can determine an end without determining the means.
The Chosen One prophesy can specify that a Jedi will come along and destroy the Sith without describing all the intermediate details. I don’t know the full description of the prophesy, but I think it’s conceivable that it could’ve been fulfilled without the destruction of the Jedi Order or in a number of other ways. It’s possible that the will of the Force dictates the end states and best paths without directly dictating how things happen.
One last thing I’d like to touch on: I’m not sure how your examples ("The Force has great power over the feeble minded." "Train him I cannot, too old he is." "Lucky for us, Droids don't think.") demonstrate that the Jedi have caused suffering or that they are evil from a utilitarian perspective. I can think of at least one example that would be more illuminating (ie. had you brought up leaving Shmi Skywalker in slavery to show that the Jedi don’t really care about taking down oppressive systems), but more elaboration on your points would be appreciated.
In short, I agree that we should not evaluate the will of the Force as good without greater outside consideration. However, I disagree in your portrayal of the Force as an ultimate being which dictates every move and your conclusions that the Force has no actual will, that those attempting to follow the will of the Force are morally bankrupt, and that “might makes right” is the essence of religious philosophy in Star Wars (which you didn’t directly state but implicated).
Weirdly enough, Anakin actually listening instead of putting all his focus into fighting gives this whole fight a wholesome feel to it
How kind of Anakin to let Obi Wan finish, now we just need the video in which he responds to the philosophical position of his master, maybe by citing his thesis
I like to imagine Yoda using the force to shove Obi-Wan inside the locker.
Anakin has his thesis on TTODPTW, Obi-Wan has his thesis on the questionable morality of the jedi order.
Truly, Anakin has found his academic rival.
Imagine if right after he said that he understands why Yoda thinks he's a nerd Anakin went straight into his thesis of dichotomy.
The fact that the epic music is still playing during this nerdy monologue makes it even funnier 😂
Obi-Wan learned Talk No Jutsu. When combined with the High Ground, he is completely unstoppable.
We must keep in mind how respectful Anakin was during this discussion, as he patiently waited for Obi Wan to complete making all of his points before thoroughly ripping them apart with one simple use of the Nerd Theorem.
As an aside, I'm pretty sure that the original upload of this video was the first video of yours that I watched. Im glad youtube randomly recommended it to me because the 'Anakin Shrugged' star wars verse is just a gift that keeps on giving! Thanks for bringing some joy to my day everytime you upload and I hope life treats you well 😊
"One could argue that the will of the force is itself evil and needs to therefore be opposed".
Sounds like Kreia to me, not gonna lie.
While I fundamentally disagree with this stance, I do see why someone would think it, given that prophecy and the will of the force seems to strip people of their free will, but I'd argue that it does not, as you can take many different paths to arrive at the same destination: 1+4=5 - 8-3=5, not to mention that the force only wishes to preserve itself, and is self preservation evil? would me or you be "evil" for taking medicine to cure our aliments? I attribute this to a fundamental misunderstanding of the force, it's will, and what the force means on the part of Kreia and all the others who adhere to her philosophy
@@ZomboidManiaMoreover, the force is at least partially comprised by the will and lives of all living things. It is a completely moral concept or being. One could argue that all morals are derived from it, similar to how an omnipotent and benevolent God would be the axiom of an objective morality.
@ZomboidMania I think it's less what the will is actively doing and more the fact that they don't appreciate an effectively omniscient, largely incomprehensible will lording over them. The agenda of the will of the force could literally be making pancakes and I'm pretty sure kreia would still want it gone. Sure, it just wants to exist, but is that good for everyone? That's kreia's point. Regardless of its own Intentions, the force is used for all manner of evils, just as it is for good. If its existence hurts countless people, and all it can offer is the hope that some people will use it to help, why let it exist if you have the power to stop it? Enter kreia.
@@ZomboidManiaBy seeking to preserve itself the Force seeks to preserve all life and the preservation of life is generally considered to be morally good
@@ZomboidMania The sheer number of times throughout galactic history where the Force's dark side has caused massive deaths and even extinction of entire sentient races stands as a great beacon compared to its ability to help through the light. In most recorded incidents, the Light Side acts by stopping the Dark Side after it has already committed atrocities and expresses the desire to commit more. To the best of my ability, I cannot think of a single Light Side technique that preemptively saves the lives the Dark Side plans to eradicate.
“Moral high ground” is brilliant, especially after cycling through the scene
This was an amazing video I can’t wait for the one where Anakin comes with his rebuttal
I think Obi-Wan kind-of hand-waved his assertion that the Jedi had alleviated more suffering than they had caused. I don't think that's self-evident.
I don't have a degree in debate philosophy but it's pretty self-evident. Especially if considering the Jedi Order as a whole, and not their recent (in the scale of history) corruption by Darth Sidious
He does tend to do a lot of hand waving
@@defiantnight2668 But as an easy counterexample, consider the Jedi's ongoing material support for Tatooine's institution of industrial slavery, from which they purchased their messiah with a goddamn podracing bet.
They actively treated Anakin like property, and were surprised when he grew up and said, "This sucks, actually."
@@harrisonfackrell as a retort to this point, I'd like to bring up the republic law from the valorem chancellorship disallowing the jedi from starting conflicts without the republic senates explicit support, that was instated post jedi civil war as a way to not draw the republic into any more religious conflicts. id propose that if the jedi were legally able too they would have attempted to eliminate the Tatooine slave trade and other morally evil markets across the galaxy, however their hands are tied by a beurocracy they could not escape without causing more harm than good.
as for Anakin's treatment by the jedi order while it may seem harsh I'd like to bring up that a large point of the poor treatment he got from the jedi order (the council and mace windu in particular) was due to his own actions and personality. a jedi may leave the order at any time, 20 have done so by the time of attack of the clones already, it is by no means disallowed. Anakin could leave at any point without consequence (of course he stays due to wanting access to the holocron vault with knowledge restricted to only jedi masters. knowledge that he believes could help save Padme. however, this reasoning is unknown to the jedi order) but instead he decides to stay in the order despite clearly not agreeing with its ideals and in most cases actively going against them. from the perspective of the jedi order Anakin was already allowed into the order despite rules wise him being too old to be allowed in and has done almost nothing but further mock their principles for almost his entire adult life and career. it is only natural they would grow to dislike him and attempt to discipline him for his actions within the bounds of the order.
@@harrisonfackrell right the Jedi monopolize the force and kidnap children from their parents at a young age to indoctrinate them into their emotionally suppressive theology. Where they aren’t given support for dealing with their negative emotions before being able to let them go but just told that to feel it or want to feel it is dangerous.
There isn’t anything wrong with Bhuddist style release from desire as a personal philosophy but when you don’t allow or address how difficult it is and expect perfection from children and young adults in this area seems borderline emotionally abusive
All of that, just to set up a 'I have the high ground' joke. I've never loved anything as much as this, thank you
This reminds me of Skyrim.
In Skyrim we are told that when a dragon fights it uses its voice. So a fight between two dragons could simply be a great debate.
Or a Rap battle
Anakins thesis in dovahzul...
Imagine two dragons dishing eachoother so hard that they create a continent.
The problem with that assertion is that it is completely contradicted by what the game shows us. It's a great worldbuilding concept, but what we see and hear as we play is:
Dragonborn: "FORCE BALANCE PUSH!"
Dragon: "FIRE INFERNO SUN!"
It's basically two weebs calling out their jutsus at each other while they slap-fight.
It's similar in Tolkien's mythology to, the world was made from song magic so any great magical battle is going to involve people singing at each other, Sauron flat out had a magical rap battle with an elf king.
Imagine trying to kill someone but the person lectures you instead
Kill Bill moment
It's a strategy to make you kill yourself -- defensive offense
The funniest thing was anakin boxing obi wan THE ENTIRE TIME he was talking, it is so easy to miss if you dont focus on it, but they were working their way towards the high ground all along.
3:35 that silence said everything
"You're just mad I got through all of that without a single use of the word 'dichotomy'"
"Just because that's true doesn't mean your own argument was correct."
That was the smartest and most well-spoken argument I’ve ever heard in my life.
Impressive. Bravo. Kudos.
The young Anakin still has a lot to learn from his master ...
3:45 The Force doesn't tend towards the destruction of the Dark Side, it tends towards balance. Which leads to a constant and infinite push and shove conflict between the Light and the Dark that has lasted for at least 300,000 years. This was Kreia's argument against the Force.
In the original movie canon, the "Balance" is the Destruction of the Force.
"from my point of view, the jedi are evil!"
"sorry anakin, i was remembering all those youngling you slaughtered, what were you saying?"
Edit: lot of people trying to justify child murder in the replies, jesus 0_o
"tu quoque fallacy"
“I wasn’t killing them I was freeing them from a life of being Jedi “
JEDI younglings, therefore they were also evil.
He didn't kill them, he just read them his thesis
"From my point of view, the jedi are evil!"
"You murdered an entire tribe of sandpeople in revenge for your mother's death with no regard to any individual involvement of said crime, potential mitigating circumstances nor regard to any relevant laws, greater ethical frameworks or any rational concept of proportionate punishment. Assuming that you believe yourself to be either morally "good" or at least anything other than "evil" then your actions (involving multiple instances of mass slaughter and acts of destabilising governments) is of greater detriment to the well-being of countless others than those you accuse the jedi council of performing, and as such cannot be considered evil. Should you accept that the Sith (and by extension yourself) are "evil" then you either have to believe that the jedi council are of an "evil" greater than your own, are of equivalent malevolence to the Sith but in philosophical opposition or that anything that is "good" (or "not evil" since the concept of a binary morality is debatable) is a form of "evil" merely by existing in opposition to your own morality. The concept that the jedi order serves as a form of greater "evil" than that of you and the Sith is ungrounded given that your actions, as mentioned, have caused more suffering to others than that of the jedi order and even at its most flawed, its corruption, hedonism, isolationism and militarism has done less harm to others in countless generations than the emergent Sith has in less than one. The view that the jedi are of equivalent "evil" (while still dubious a claim) presents the two force factions of jedi vs sith as a conflict between to ideological groups that are "evil" in which case your objection to the jedi has no basis in morality but instead in some combination of politics, ideology or emotion since you are siding with "evil" regardless. If you accept that as an "evil" agent anything that is "good" (or at least "non-evil") is a form of evil to you implies that concepts such as "good" and "evil" are strictly issues of individual perspective. This is a flawed judgment on two fronts. First of all, the concept of "good" and "evil" are mostly universal transcending species, culture and time meaning that this morality is either objective or sociological. For convenience let us assume it is sociological as not all individuals and races adhere to a morality system and that what is considered "good" or "evil" is prone to shift over time or show differences between cultures (an objective morality necessitates an explanation of this continual variance which for brevity's sake I will not discuss as it's not directly relevant), and as such your perspective of what constitutes evil runs contrary to that of society at large. The second front is that to adopt the perspective that "good" and "evil" are fundamentally defined by the values of the individual is self defeating as if you believe yourself to be "evil" then anything you would consider "evil" must be at least morally aligned to your sensibilities and as such your opposition to the jedi for being "evil", again, cannot be moral as you, and the Sith faction you serve, are "evil" which you consider to be more in line with your values. If you oppose the jedi because you consider them to be "evil" then you have to consider yourself as not "evil", in which you have to compare yourself and your actions to the jedi and find them more morally justifiable which, as mentioned, is unlikely given your recent actions unless you can find a way of deeming war, autocracy, betrayal, child slaughter, genocide and destabilising the political structure of a galaxy as morally "good" rather than "evil" or pragmatically necessary. There is the outside possibility that you consider yourself "amoral" (either that no morality truly exists, or that you don't adhere to an objective or socially driven moral code) but that, too, is unlikely given that an amoral person cannot object to anything on moral grounds. On all fronts your statement is unsound and is a ludicrous as those red contact lenses you're wearing."
Never stop making these. They give me life.
This felt hours long... and I enjoyed every second of it
Not Anakin gaslighting Obi-Wan for being a “nerd” like _he_ didn’t bring suffering to those around him with his raggedy 72-hour-long thesis.
I actually mouthed the words "I have the MORAL high ground" as they were said....
Anikin's theosis on the dichotomy of real or parodic memories is strong in the force
I love the philosophical star wars videos you make
Considering that Jedi aren't supposed to own personal effects, I'm beginning to suspect Yoda's pension for shoving people into lockers means that he is _also_ purchasing lockers to place around the Jedi facilities.
Sorry to be that guy, but that's "penchant", not "pension". Yoda's pension didn't serve him well in his old age, if his house on Dagobah is anything to go by. And yes, I must now append the following: 🤓
Good evening to you.
@ZoopsMind That's an incredibly "that guy" move, then you should be ashamed.
@@fortello7219 From my point of view, that guy is evil! ... Yeah, a fair point well made. I will retire to the Planet of the Nitpickers to wallow in my shame with the rest of those guys.
All Obi-Wan needed to do was remind Anakin that the Jedi don't shoot lightning out of their fingers.
I see, so the legends videos are Anakin Shrugged: Infinities, and the point of diversion was that in this reality, Obi Wan wrote the Thesis.
"Fine, jeesh, I'll just trow myself in to the lava. At least I won't have to listen to you anymore."
I expected Anakin to jump into lava on his own, just so he wouldn't need to listen to Obi-Wan's monologue any longer.
And Obi-Wan is spitting FACTS. It isn't possible to be a Sith and a good person.
Darth Vectivus would beg to differ.
@@jlev1028 That's assuming Lumiya was being honest about him, which is a very big assumption considering her intentions.
@@jlev1028 Darth Vectivus? do you mean the Siths Propoganda machine?
Anakin was just mad that his doctoral thesis couldn't be used in this case because he suffered from a crippling case of overspecialization
@@jlev1028even if he was real he was one Sith. One. He would be the exception that proved the rule.
Finally I’ve been rewatching your videos so much I love these so much
This is probably the greatest star wars media thing I've ever watched. Shitposting aside, it's also a rather execellent refuetal to sith simps that somehow think the sith are good people or that jedi are evil
The prequels' jedi order were a bunch of incompetent corrupt hypocritical fools.
The Jedi have problems, however their only real competition on a galactic scale are the baby eating over the top comically evil Sith
@@michaelavery5618 tbf, in legends its pretty well estabilished the dark side of the force corrupts everything it touches. You kind of get blinded of everything as you seek more power, immortality and etc.
No worries, I am content charging both as necessary evils.
@@MatthewKelley-mq4cethe dark side is nottt a necessary evil 😭😭 the dark side is pure evil and should be avoided at all costs 😭
5:00 5 minutes just to set up for one joke
You were a philosophy major huh, this is too accurate for you to have been anything else
Now that's what I call "aggressive negotiations" 😂
4:33 don't forget that if we look at it mathematically and consider strong and weak a dichotomy that: if someone from the strong half kills someone from the weak half then the median will shift meaning someone who was considered strong is now weak and therefore now need be killed as well even though he was considered strong before and therefore was doing the killing. (There is some sort of irony in here). If you now let this cycle continue you will end in a situation with only one survivor The Strongest and at that point there is no one to compare to meaning the terms strong and weak lose all meaning and the dichotomy falls apart destroyed the sith code in the process. (there is also some other philosophical message/meaning in here somewere which someone else needs to find as i didn't study Philosophie and therefore don't know enough about what the message could be and also someone need to finish my line of thinking as i have no idea what the sith code falling in on itself could truly mean)
Kinda reminds me of the darkness and the concept of the final shape from destiny. A constant culling of weakness until the universe itself has been cut into a shape suited only for now-obselete violence.
"And that's why I created the rule of two." -Darth Bane rolling in his grave somewhere
If strong help weak gain strength does that mean strong destroyed the weak?
@@BigWarthog no the amount of strong and weak would stay the same who is considered strong and weak may change depending if they surpassed the strong and the average may increase but there will always be a weaker and a stronger half
@@Chaos_Cultist If "strong" can't protect themselves does that mean they aren't strong. And if "weak" can do that can they be considered weak?
4:00 Ah, but that is wholly inaccurate. The sith do not wish to destroy the weak entirely. The sith believe the weak should serve the strong.
Obi-Wan is only using the Jedi view of the Sith which is worse understanding of the Sith
@l.warner3951 Indeed. They aren't particularly good by any means but they certainly aren't wholly evil either.
I'm not really sure the weak being enslaved by the strong is that much better lol
@sargeantreyna2286 Well, to be fair a master can choose to be exceedingly kind to his or her slaves. It just depends on the master. It's not much better but it is better.
@@l.warner3951 I mean... we've got several examples of what it looks like when the SIth get their way... and it's not pretty ;)
I love the idea of Yoda being a -cocaine- death stick-using partier who bullies philosophy nerds like Anakin and Obi-Wan
That last Anakin dig before Obi Wan savagely cuts & burns him explains it all 😮😂
He burned him, but he was burnt first.
I wasn’t sure there was going to even be a punchline this time… it was all a real good essay on morality from different perspectives and beliefs…
…and it culminated in calling Obi-Wan a nerd. And it was worth it.
“It’s over Anakin. I have the moral high ground.”
This whole video was made just for that one joke
I already miss the Thesis Anakin
That was such a good retort wow haha really enjoyed that!
i like this idea of them having this conversation while actively lightsaber dueling and climbing and jumping around on the equipment
I love that every Star Wars parody universe has agreed that Yoda spends jedi order money on drugs
I was honestly expecting a moral debate between Anakin and Obi Wan here
Wait... The Sith view the Jedi as evil while the Jedi view the Sith as evil. Hmm... I see there's quite a DICHOTOMY there!!!
He didn't even say DICHOTOMY!
No wonder why his thesis was so unconvincing! 😂
“Mmm Kenobi yes… a Nerd very much, Blue are his balls than green I am “
I must attest that Obi-Wan is invalidly accusing Anakin of immorality by killing children. He merely told them his thesis with side tangents, they choose to throw themselves out of the window he did not force them in any way. Also the best part of this video is when Obi Wan had his first sad moment remembering Yoda called him a nerd right as the sad music started I couldn't help but notice 5 people liked the video in real time.
This is what Obi-wan meant when he said “well then you are lost!”
Now we know where Anakin’s thesis comes from
In my experience I find that whenever someone talks about the utilitarian moral philosophy model, most people skip over the important part of that school of thought: defining how that utility is calculated. Instead people just assume that all people have a very similar utility function, one that is symmetrical (as in one where gaining something is equivalent in utility gain as losing it is equivalent in utility loss) and universal (as in it applies to everyone equally from any perspective) at the very least.
However, in all actuality, defining that utility function is the most important part. Any supposition made using a utility function you don't completely agree with can be rejected simply because you don't agree on the utility function.
And, because high utility is considered to be good, while low utility is bad, the utilitarian argument is thus reduced back to arguing the question of "what is good" (which is the question this school of thought is seemingly trying to answer already), but this time we are also trying to asign numbers to everything. And thus, given our limited knowledge of the workings of existence and our finite computational capacity, I find the utilitarian argument to be nothing more than an attempt to mislead: to answer the question of "what is good" with nothing more, but a question of "what is good numerically".
Utilitarianism cannot answer that question because of Hume's guillotine.
This was amazing! Professor Kenobi at his finest. Can we have a whole Anakin vs Obi Wan debate spanning their whole battle!? Doesn’t have to be all in one go but I fee like Anakin and Padme should have their philosophical spat, then Obiwan joins in, and then the two of them debate with Anakin making his opening argument in the first main segment. Meanwhile Yoda is trying to get his secret stash of drugs from Palpatine’s desk
The idea of Yoda shoving someone into a locker sounds absurd until i remembered that, if anyone can telekinetically shove someone into something, its Yoda.
This. Is. So. Good! I love that this is a legends version, an alternative universe, since Anakin makes no arguments. But we can see the implied origins of The Thesis and that's perfect. I can't wait to see the canon version!
In robot form Anakin finally got his Masters. "Only a Master of Evil, Darth." Obi-Wan was not impressed.
Anakin's full unabridged thesis when?
I love how it pauses at 3:37 implying that although Anakin is not engaging in this debate at the same level as Obi-Wan, this moment of awkward silence is basically Anakin calling him out on a fallacy he was making, in the only way Vader could.