True but the problem is that the creators often forget to add in the details that distinguish the two from each other. Its like they forget themselves which form the character is supposed to be in
6:12 On the topic of Piccolo's Potential Unleashed type mode. I think that Dragon Ball has sort of glossed over it, but every character can get their potential awakened as a buff. Krillin and Gohan got their potential awakened by Guru, Gohan got his potential truly awakened by Supreme Kai. Which also brings into question why everyone hasn't went to the Supreme Kai or a similar godly figure to give them a Potential Unleashed type form. Especially with characters like Tien that are canonically meant to have some sort of true, hidden power, as well as being part alien himself (Yeah, Triclops is an alien species, I was just as confused when I found that out). Hell, now that I think about it, we never got any explicit confirmation that Goku OR Vegeta ever got a Potential Awakening.
I'd say nobody went to unleash their potential because they're all proud warriors and martial artists, so they find pleasure and motivation in the journey to master themselves. Every time someone has had their potential unleashed was because they were working against time, so they needed as you said a buff. Honestly thinking about it it would probably be the same with the Super Saiyan God ritual. I'm sure if Goku knew you could acces that form by training alone, and Beerus wasn't threatening to destroy the planet, he would have refused to undergo the ritual. As for Orange Piccolo I think it's just the reward that the dragon balls give proud namekian warriors who prove themselves, like way back in the Frieza Saga where they said that the Dragon Balls where rewards for warriors who surpassed some tests or something I don't remember really well
@@lluisrojasgarcia97I was referring to Power Awakened Piccolo not Orange. Shenron himself said he gave Piccolo an extra something on top of the awakened power.
Yes that super sayian rage take is wild like where is the explanation for this man trunks not unlocking this after getting whooped by black until he went back in time and somehow has the motivation now
Bro I think I'd cry if dragon ball went back to classic martial arts I would love to see them do some crispy shit like like early Anderson silva did Or like having Goku and Vegeta fighting someone that it really looks like they can't beat and they find a way to just straight up exhaust the power difference outta them
11:20 to me goku making progress faster than vegeta for most of the series was about his of mastery martials arts, having multiple teachers and masters, if you notice goku until the cell saga he used to wear his orange gi with the symbol of the teacher until the cell saga implying that he became a "master" .(until super retconed it). Vegeta was born with a much higher power level and never had a teacher or master before in his life, he learned how to sense and hide ki on the namek arc by himself, vegeta is just as talented, but for most of z he refused help and overworked himself, for example he was locked in with trunks in the hyperbolic time chamber and yet unlike gohan and goku, he didn't bond and train the same way gohan and goku did. In conclusion vegeta fighting understanding/talent is comparable to goku maybe less but the difference maker is the fact that Goku works smarter and has deeper understanding of fighting in general imo.
Na vegeta has never lost to goku he keeps up with less forms than goku,every fight they had vegeta won,as far as training goes whis literally tells him to let go of his grudge which did in the buu arc but was slowly coming back due to toyotaros terrible writing
@@zayzillions7319 Vegeta is a little bit too prideful the cell games showed it, he preferes to train his body beyond exhaustion that shit just looks cool to sigma male edits, there's no martial that people won't advocate to for you to train more effectively instead of training in volume. This dude Vegeta wasted a second year of his life in the hyperbolic time chamber to stay the same. He made the most progress when he actually had a master in whiss and then beerus, nobody learns everything by himself that's the bigger pictures here even in the Moro arc when he went and learned with yadrats. Also Vegeta needed Majin to keep up with Goku in the Buu saga as well to prove my point further.
@@goncalosilva5369 vegeta didn’t need babidi’s power to keep up he wanted to be evil again so he allowed him to be susceptible to his magic,outside of character flaws which were addressed and retconned by Toyotaro vegeta has always been better than goku in terms of power growth he’s just nerfed by plot in favor of the goku show
@@goncalosilva5369 think about it Vegeta has never fallen behind severely and if he did he catches up easily,all he had to do was take it easy once in a while in which he did and guess what him and goku are currently dead even if not vegeta has a slight edge.Vegeta literally suffers due to plot
You literally explained why piccolo isn’t Mickey… dude literally trained by himself for decades and was ssj3 level… the main cast either needed new transformations and god training to get any stronger.
im being so serious , i’d rather him just been secretly training & unlocked the form. i get there’s a be different crowd on everything but “wishing for more power” is literally something kids talk about doing lmaoo it’s factually a power up just because zibes. you don’t even disagree tbh, you just like the form.
@@TSO_SageI see ure point but piccolo was doing the same thing that gohan did unlock his potential like gohan did from giru and broke his potential by elder kai but yea it also kinda bummed me out the same way gohans beat did both orange and beast are undeserved tbh with u
8:40 Goku already explained in the manga iirc that he doesn't stack Kaioken onto SSJ because the stamina drain is way too much. That's also why he doesn't use SSJ Blue with Kaioken too often... additionally, stacking them puts WAY too much strain on the body. What is dumb tho is that Goku and the gang could've easily trained up there to unlock SSJ2 by that point and use their one day back to earth from the old witch (if she is still around) in order to defeat the androids. OR BETTER YET, have King Kai communicate with Bulma a way to build a spaceship and use the one day wish in order to stalk the androids, and get bulma and trunks to new namek in order to use their dragon balls to either incapacitate the androids and wish everyone back (hell, we can even wish Trunks immortal as a joke at that point, although that might tick off beerus). These are all methods that have been done in the series or shown to be completely possible so I am convinced that Toriyama just wanted the future timeline to be hopeless no matter what.
Gods shouldn't show favouritism or get involved in mortals affairs. its not his job to protect earth, especially when they made their own problems by creating the androids. king kai only helps goku because hes his student. king kai only helps if theres a north galaxy or universal threat. the androids are only planetary
Beerus isnt evil though. He's an indifferent god who's soul purpose is to destroy and make room for creation to do it's thing. Calling him evil would be like calling animals evil. I saw a video of a komodo dragon once. It ripped open a pregnant fawn's belly and ate the baby while the fawn was still alive. I wouldn't call the komodo dragon evil. It's fucked up, yes. But not evil. And that's how a god of destruction is.
I don’t think the orange piccolo thing was that crazy. He finds out about the unlocking potential after running into a stronger fighter. Goes to Dende to get unlocked, Dende didn’t know how. Dende says he upgraded Shenron. And shenron said he unlocked potential and gave him a little extra. Now was it more than a little extra yes, but wasn’t that over the top.
11:17 I hate this argument so much, that people think that Vegeta trained himself and figured out how to transform into a Super Saiyan God, when that's not true. What is true, is that he didn't use the "Ritual" to become a God the first time like Goku, but Vegeta didn't learn it on his own how to unlock the divine powers, he was literally trained by an "Angel", who helped him how to discover those powers, because if Vegeta hadn't trained with Whis he would never have become the Super Saiyan God, without help or that ritual that Goku went through the first time.
He did. Its not a bad transformation. Its better than ssj by a long shot. The problem isthat the artists sometimes forget to draw the distinction between ssj1 and 2. Also ssj3 is the most useless cause it takes too much energy to keep up. Goku says it multiple times. Why use it when u got ssj2 or super saiyan god?
People forget Goku died from natural causes and went to heaven and possibly doesn’t even have his body. Edit: 15:57 I thought I was only one who wasn’t messing with the Super 17 arc.
6:00 kinda a miss take here 1. goku and vegeta arnt there so the point of why hasnt this been done before he didnt need to, once he figures out goku and vegeta are gonna be hard to reach he ask if dende can unlock his potential like guru did with gohan and krillin. dende says he doesn't have the ability so he ask if the dragon can do it . he can shenron unlocks his potential giving him the lime form "+ a bit extra" which is orange because piccilo who was once evil doesn't use the dragon balls for material gain so the dragon gifts him extra power 2, in Z i think they do decent jobn at portraying piccilos method of training and how its ineffective or less so due to him doing it solo he more focuses on base conditioning and special techniques. to were goku and roshii tryna make the best martial artist. the only real power up he really gets outside of namekian exlusives absobtions and this which also plays on his namekian ties. preping for the androids the first time hes doing martial arts training with someone else and isn't a tranier persay if you want you can count king kia trianing be4 nail fusion he gets a crazy boost. 3 dirctly coralating his training to his teaching i see were u comin from but piccolo is training saiyins the martial art aspect almost comes natrually too all of them but a young gohan ironiclly so piccilo being a guy with crazy techniques and just maintains his shape fits well as a mentor. espiaslly considering how nonchalant gohan is with training. the potential unleashes also seem to have a passive buff cause krillin went from 3kish to 10k after it happend but by time his second form frieza fight hes at 75k. considering gohan got to vegteta first appearance strength when he was weaker than nappa previously. you could make an argument for gohan always passively having potential cracks especially after the elder kia PU and as you say keeps him relevant one rage boost away. If orange is mickey then it extends to every potintial unlock to an extent. is his piccolo's power boost more BS for you because of the power jump or the new form
The dragon balls make sense, Ganoralah became the strongest at a cost. They had to upgrade the DB for Piccolo to unlock his potential. Plus we all wanted Piccolo to catch up
6:04 I would like to remind you that Orange Piccolo itself was not something piccolo was aware of, it simply came as courtesy from Shenron 8:40 goku had already stacked Kaioken on SSJ when fighting Pikkon btw, he called it ''Super Kaioken'' 13:38 I hate when ppl say you can't tell ssj goku from ssj2 goku apart, the fucking bangs look different and vegeta's hairstyle NEVER changes with transformations basically so that's fair, adult gohan has a smaller bang in ssj that goes away at ssj2, but nothing too drastic either
Piccolo (fused with Kami) was the namek that created the dragon. That’s why orange piccolo was fitting. This also could be the “super namekian” that had been teased all through dragon ball. Also, he couldn’t have wished for the potential unleash because he never had the chance to after fusing with Kami.
I thought Piccolo wishing for his potential unleashed made sense since it was the fused version of king piccolo and kami who made the dragon balls it felt like a certain amount of power being returned to him
I'd argue gohan achieving beast with that level of rage and lack of training is disingenuous to all the prior rage boosts he's had. It invalidates moments where he's most definitely even more angry (watching namekians kids die in front of him, krillin being presumed killed by frieza, cell jrs man handling his friends and family, etc.). To just say, this power always existed and how vastly it outscales anything in dragon ball or even most of DBS anime arcs (manga is a whole other can of worms, and obviously not including G.O.D's and angels). Extra Note: Forgot to even mention piccolo's death. And yes ik this doesn’t make for an interesting story, but thats my point. Beast's existence invalidates prior stakes and it doesn’t help we know so little about it.
I may be on copium for this, but I figured that if Beast was an evolution of the Ultimate/Mystic/Potential Unleashed form, it'd make some sense why it hasn't appeared prior. As for why it never happened during Super, well, he _was_ kinda washed. By the time he could access his full power again, he missed out on shit that could've triggered Beast.
What! Bro first take was crazy, Cell was a dog! He was legit all of them in one character and wanted the best fight like goku to prove he’s strongest. Cell was a great villain
Well it wasnt JUST piccolos potential, piccolos potential came in the form of the power awakening state where he was slightly yellowish green. But orange piccolo was the extra power that shenron granted him."all you have plus a little extra."
@@ChadIs No. It's not true. People got confused about a trading card game and thought his card power was his power level. They created all kinds of head canon about it. Ox King is much weaker.
I must disagree with Vegeta being the best character in DB by development … -He still let his pride beat him wayyy before his opponent actually beats him -He’s still obsessed with surpassing Goku when he should be using his family as motivation to surpass himself -He went from being his own entity in DB only to be demoted to becoming a caricature of himself -He still hasn’t grown as a fighter considering he still prefers to handle things by himself As long as Vegetas pride is intact …He can never truly grow beyond Goku but that’s how Toriyama wants his character to be so🤷
Okay, I wish to make a little argument for Orange Piccolo (You don't have to agree with me, just hear me out). When he made the wish, yes, he got pretty powerful... _HOWEVER_ when OP showed up, the voice-line that Shenron said showed up ("A little something extra") implying that was external intervention. Could you make the argument that kind of form shouldn't happen in DB? Yeah, in the same way Super Saiyan God shouldn't. But it should be remembered, this movie was originally for _Piccolo_ and Gohan was tagged in later, as such, this form has significantly more narrative relevance when looking through the movie than Beast does. But that's my opinion, do what you want with it.
In defense of Super Saiyan Rage, it didn't need to exist and yeah they should've explained more about it. However, my interpretation of it was that Super Saiyan Rage is what happens when a Saiyan tries to surpass Supwer Saiyan 2 through anger rather than training. If it was through training then they'd reach Super Saiayn 3 but through anger they would reach Rage. Or maybe the blue aura was from the god ki from goku and vegeta The design was good with the white eyes and aura they just didn't use it all the time. The name was stupid though but the transformation scene was badass. 🤷♂
Rage isn't ssj 3 level. It just got confirmed in the manga it's probably around god level because Goku, Vegeta and Whis just reacted to him transforming to it. Also Mystic gohan is pass ssj3. Beast to me is a mixture of ssj and mystic because for him to obtain Mystic he was elder Kai method which could connect to god ki.
all respect... i have 0 idea how anybody liked this lmaoo. mainly because the form by those metrics would have been achieved MUCH earlier and would be the most inconsistent form ever. Anger can be a significant amp to power but it's never been its own separate form. Goku & Vegeta raged to SSJ and Gohan to SSJ2, while Goku & Vegeta trained for SSJ2 and Gohan for SSJ. But even if you were to still think rage could be an exclusive form, someone else in the series would have BEEN unlocked the form. You even speculate that it's not rage and its Trunks tapping into God Ki FROM OTHER CHARACTERS lmao which God Ki doesn't even work like that.
Whats crazy is that technically Beerus allowed freiza to destroy planet vegeta. Dude was gonna do it himself but fell asleep before he got around to it😂
Imma be real i never really got perfect cell. Like yeah first and second form cell were great because he had that motivation to become complete, which forced the heroes to try and play keep away with cell and the androids (who also wanted to kill them), but after getting absorbs 18 he looses that motivation. After that he’s just “i am strong, i want to see how strong i am, fight me.” Like i guess some people say that thats just the goku dna in his body just wanting to fight, but i dont think they played that up enough in the show for that to be really obvious. Also where was that thirst for fighting in his first and second forms?
GT has the best villain in DB that being Baby and his revenge against the Saiyans. And Super has the biggest low being a tingle in the back is what sparks going Super Saiyan.
Nah, I'm sorry, blowing up 18 wasn't an option. Krillin isn't a cold blooded killer and the androids clearly weren't evil at that point, blaming Krillin for not getting his hands dirty to fix Vegeta's mess is ridiculous.
They literally killed people and tried to murder his friends wtf are u on yea he ain't a cold blooded killer but don't act like these androids were just minding their business come on
@@balrogdemorgoth4741 I see how my comment was misconstrued I was saying even with the knowledge dat they murder not just his friends but basically take over da world wasn’t enough for him to do it is crazy when u think bout it bro u know that all u have to do is push a button and u save millions but hesitant because u thought she was cute and deserved redemption is wild that wasn’t his call to make I understand it I’m saying it is crazy
@@mulkmanto4797 Except he has no 'knowledge' that they do it, at best he heard 'the androids' as a whole killed everyone in the future, then he was clearly shown Trunks can be wrong and the future can change before seeing HIMSELF that the androids didn't even attack them and SPARED them. She didn't need redemption, she literally did nothing wrong yet. You REALLY need to rewatch the show. No, it is not crazy to not murder someone in cold blood because you heard an alternate self of theirs did something bad in the future.
@@balrogdemorgoth4741 trunks literally tells them wat happened in his world that's the reason they train before u say he thought it was the other androids he was there when trunks pointed out it wasn't them it was the other ones krillen knew it's ok I wasn't disagreeing he wasn't a killer he's not I pointed out he knew wat she did in the future trunks tells all of them
That last take. OH DEAR GOD. 1. It’s not Planet Vegeta, it’s Planet Sadala, it has an ENTIRELY different society than Planet Vegeta. 2. IF and I mean *IF* there’s a royalty there on Sadala, the king is NOT gonna give Vegeta the crown because *VEGETA ISN’T THE PRINCE TO U6 SADALA* because it’s not HIS RIGHT TO RULE OVER. 3. Vegeta is LONG past his days of a Royal Elite conquering Saiyan. Having him do that dumbass transition in U6 of all places is kinda like undoing it all. 4. Vegeta ain’t gonna be teaching the Saiyans of U6, he’s got Cabba to deal with, he ain’t got time to teach a whole civilization except sparring with some who he deems worthy of battling. If there’s gonna be a person to teach SSJ, it’s gotta be Cabba as he’s part of the Sadala Defense Force…but until Vegeta beats him over the head on how to PROPERLY trigger SSJ and not rely on that STUPID back method, Cabba ain’t ready to teach SSJ to other Saiyans of his universe besides Kale and Caulifla.
Sage dounds like he only watched GT dub not sub and it’s a shame because sub really helps realize the ideas of the narrative much better. The dialogue can be so drastically different in instances that it entirely changes how you interpret it.
seen it sub, same exact take bro lol. emotion or ideas was never an issue with the series. tbh you kinda siced it lol but anyways the language/interpretation doesn’t change my thoughts on super 17 being dumb & his doctor worse, any dragon outside of nova being annoying, goku having fodder fights in hell, parapara, and nasty callbacks.
@@TSO_Sage I gotta admit ain’t no saving Super 17, from what I’ve heard there were problems in the writers room that lead to an through that arc. Shadow dragon saga though is where sub really matters. Most of the dragons are the way they are due to the wishes they were created from. Sin shenron once he becomes omega start talking to Goku different. Trying to get him to understand something without directly stating it. Goku upon facing certain death realizes what Omega was getting at and is reborn leaving his Earthly desires behind. I can’t exactly give a well structured breakdown of it as I am not studied in Buddhism but SethTheProgrammer has a great breakdown of GT that can go more in depth than me. At least if you can get past his history on the platform and impact on the wider anime community. But what I can say is GT had the most narratively satisfying conclusion to the Dragon Ball story and gives the series a genuinely beautiful send off despite its shortcomings as a sequel and Dragon Ball IP. Also yeah I definitely played too much Buddokai Tenkaichi 3 as a child. I still refer to Jeice as Juice because of Chi Chi’s library.
11:01 No. It was specifically stated that the only way make a super saiyan god is to have the ritual. Vegeta popping up with SS Blue through training goes to show how bad DBSuper writing is. While I like Cell, one of the things that take away from him is the fact that he steals and uses other character abilities. Which makes sense due to what he is, but Frieza was wholly original (minus the energy discs which he didn't steal). I still like Cell, just not as much as Frieza. Is he a great villain? I would say so. I think him regenerating from semi perfect to perfect is a stretch, but the fan base has accepted it, so who am i?
I. Surprised your gt takes didn't start a flame war. GT fans have been on a mission to rewrite history to make that series seem better than it actually was. Ive always said GT is hella disappointing. It tried to recreate the og dragon ball feel and failed miserably. Turning goku into a kid was a big turn off for me. And him being a adult in ssj4 made it worse for me. People are hyping GT for a form and 1 arcs worth of good material. The baby saga and half of the shadow dragon saga. Which im glad someone else mentioned how ass more tban half the shadow dragins were. Only 3 where remotely interesting and actually strong enough to pose a threat. The rest relied to heavily on gimmicks and comedy. Super in my opinion is disappointing in some aspexts. But super has way more highs than lows and supers lows arent nearly as bad a GT. And yes ive watched GT in full. Some people do hate on it without ever watching it. But i recently tried to watch it again and its nowhere near as good as people make it out to seem. The action jist wasnt their and alot of the complaints people make of super are just as bad in GT. Goku is dumb asf in GT. Him being a kid doesn't excuse it. Because hes onlu in his kid body The argument that goku was smarter in GT gets killed when you see goku shoot another x10 Kamehameha at super 17 despite him clearly seeing he can absorb ki. Ssj4 became just as useless as blue because if you watched GT. He was only ever defeated 1 out of 3 main villains with the form. He used the super dragon first to kill super 17. He outright couldn't beat omega in ssj4 and required a spirit bomb to kill him. Both of these cases goku was in his base form. Most of the main cast was useless in GT but at least in super you got more impacfull moments from character like piccolo ,gohan, krillan, the androids and even made freiza look better than he was in GT. Its just not a real conversation when you conpare GT to super.
Bro your take on orange piccolo is horrible the most idiotic thing ive ever heard "why is he orange", "he just asked shenron for an ssj2 ass pull" tf you mean hes orange because the original dragon balls kami made fused into him, its not an anywhere near as much of an ass pull as ssj2 nor is it as much as a ass pull like gohan himself its literally the dragon balls granting their creator all of their power and turning into combat strength
Hot take: Akira should've stopped after the airing of dbz . His health and memeory was gone at that point . Yes we got battle of gods but we also got horrrible super
Super saiyan is just rage I dunno why that for even has a separate distinction. Not counting kid Trunks and Goten who got ssj in a patch because of power creep. 💀
In the super anime Goku put the multiverse at risk to 4:30 13:32 actually you can tell because the aura has lightning added to the super Saiyan aura 14:54 Goten GT got more screen time fighting than Goten. Goten fought baby and if it counts baby Goten fought Gohan, vegeta, and Goku.
FRIEZA NOT RACIST!! He literally calls the saiyan race monkeys, used them as slaves to do his dirty work, and wipe out all but 4 of them (raditz, nappa, vegita, goku) who were off world in DBZ saga
Okay this take doesn't feel too hot, but Gohan getting angry over certain things doesn't work anymore unless you give him a reason that he hasn't found already. If you've seen your close friends and family be mutilated, blown up and stomped out in your face, that trauma is hard to live with. The fact that he still goes throught his day without even mentioning any of this stuff and pouring tears is enough to say that Gohan probably shouldn't get rage boosts anymore and beast maybe shouldn't exist. That being said, we still dont have an actual reason as for why fear overrides the need to go super saiyan, because he should have gone super on Namek at the latest. If it were like the hulk where adrenaline triggers the transformation it would be good, but it's supposed to be this primal fury that really just doesn't actually exist for any character besides Goku apparently.
4:45 they get mad at Beast but this forget Gohan got like 1,000 times stronger versus Raditz as a 4 year old😭 Beast probably ain’t even his biggest random boost
5:07 I have a problem with that Gohan in the movie, and especially that transformation that he pulled out of his ass, and one argument is enough to validate my negativity towards that transformation and him, even though I have more than one, but i will only give one, and it's only two words, and whoever doesn't understand them you are not a true Dragon ball fan. Future Gohan.
Y'know now that I think about it tien just aimed a little to the side and blasted 18 we probably wouldn't have any problems with cell since eventually vegeta and trunks would come out and just kill him
How in the absolute hell is Base Kefla stronger than SSG goku. That makes no sense whatsoever. Now, I think about it the biggest, if not one of the biggest issues with DBS, is the inconsistent storytelling and power scaling of the entire series. This is the first time in my life I can't even tell which is better between anime or manga.
Although i don't fully agree that we hadn't had a great villain since dbz frieza (although i do think he is the best villain), i think cell and his entire arc is indeed overrated. Gero, android 19, android 17, 18, and 16 were thrown at the viewer in hopes that people would like them as the "main antagonists" but cell was the best one to become a villain so everything before cell appears is a waste of time. That's like 1/3rd of the entire arc. Cell himself is a great concept but is mostly a pushover and a coward until he absorbs 18. Piccolo could've killed him in their first encounter if cell didn't use solar flare. Vegeta could've killed him in his 2nd form, but he was way too confident and let him become perfect. Even trunks could've killed him if vegeta gave him the chance. He isn't very intimidating or anything in those moments. Just another weak pushover that gets demolished by vegeta. That's 1/3rd of the arc where the main villain is a pushover and coward. Cell, in his perfect form, does become a good villain. He demolishes vegeta, makes trunks give up, waltzes in a news station to announce the cell games, has a very intense fight with goku that tests goku out tremendously, and even he gave up. But he then starts going down the vegeta route when he fights gohan. Purposely lets him get stronger to the point that cell can't beat him and gets demolished even after a zenkai boost. When frieza caused goku to get stronger, it was unintentional, and it was basically karma for everything that frieza has done. Cell was basically like vegeta was when vegeta fought cell in his 2nd form. All those IQ points gone to waste.
0:12 i agree on the frieza great villain take, but i would only push that to the androids. the idea of cell is fantastic, slinking around and having to outplay the heroes to get to his full power, but perfect cell is mid 3:22 did this person get hot takes confused for wrong takes because i'm pretty sure you can't get more racist than blowing up a race's home planet
Regarding the Future Gohan part I get Kami would be dead because Piccolo is gone but you really telling me Popo couldn’t have gotten to Gohan and had him and Trunks train in the time chamber? The Androids can’t sense energy and nobody really knows about the lookout other than Goku really. Plus Yajirobe is still alive. Kind of Mickey to me 🤔
nah dr gero was watching goku throughout the whole time he was at earth with a robotic butterfly. so he would know where master roshi place, korin and kamis lookout is. he even probably know chi chi and gohan too
I wish I coulda joined in on this cuz I wanna know if people think it's a bad take to just act like numbering the power system never happened I'm rewatching Z rn and its just more fun pretending the numbers don't exist Like I don't feel like it's dumb idk
im sure im alone on this but goku black deserves more respect, im a sucker for a complex character and hes up their in complexity. it sucks how he got defeated but his character arc was cool to me
Say Goku is smarter than Vegeta all you want, but Goku would have never thought to steal the dragon balls off of Freeza’s ship like Vegeta did. Goku is a smarter fighter, but Vegeta is a smarter tactician. That’s always how I viewed it. Hot take: But I feel like Vegeta actually regressed after the Namek saga because he never tries smart plays like that again. That’s why he always rushes in and gets stomped, his pride was so damaged that he was fighting denial for years. It’s actually what holds him back the most because despite his pride being the main thing he bases his sense of self on majority of the series, if Vegeta had just been more humble knowing he would lose certain fights like he did in the namek saga and he actually trained I’d argue he could have eclipsed Goku’s strength since Vegeta was already born a stronger fighter than Goku. Literally the only reason he doesn’t improve as fast is because he insists on his way.
It is weird that it's like a rock paper scissors beats Vegeta but Vegeta never beats the villain but the villain never beats Goku essentially. There more nuance than that but you can sum it up like that...
I agree with you about ssj looking the same on everyone except teen Gohan EXCEPT for Goku. His hair noticeably changes in the front. Not a huge change but it is noticeable. Everyone else agree 100% tho.
The issue with Buu is that he's just not a consistent character. Like start to finish Frieza is the same guy, Cell changes a little when he achieves his perfect form but he's mostly the same guy. Buu is literally, like, 7 different personalities and characters throughout the arc. It's hard to build a strong connection with really any version of Buu because he's just vastly different, like, maybe 5 episodes later
I can agree with people that buu is a lesser villain than Cell, Frieza and vegeta, specially when it comes to depth but dammit i love him anyway, just because his pure evil chaotic unhinged energy is so different. Why can't we have crazy villains who're crazy for crazyness sake? I mean Buu was supposed to be a demon right??? I think that he's perfect for that 3rd saga where Goku feels Like he's in control of everything, then its obvious that the villain would look like a funny joke to him. (Also we have the Vegetto beating down Buuhan wich is fucking awesome
My hot take is that the transformations severely fuck up the scaling and make characters like Goku and Vegeta seem weak as hell and undermines their training. Think about the Tournament of Power, we see characters like Android 17, Hit, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, etc. keep up with and in Jiren's case FAR surpass Super Saiyan Blue Goku & Vegeta, but all of those characters are always in their base forms as that's all they have. If that is the case, why the fuck are Goku and Vegeta's base forms so weak? We know that Goku and Vegeta's god forms make them hundreds of thousands - millions of times stronger, so does that mean that if Android 17 can keep up with Goku and Vegeta then he is millions of times stronger than their base forms? How? Am I to assume that each and every one of those characters trained millions of times harder than Goku and Vegeta? I just wish the series would finally put some respect on the base forms of these characters. With the way it looks now it honest to god feels like Yamcha could walk up to base Goku and Vegeta and just beat the dog shit out of them. Seriously, limit Goku and Vegeta to only their base forms in the TOP and they're getting their pockets ran by Ribrianne alone. It's so frustrating to think about
As a person who drew a lot of dragon Ball in high school art classes, there's a huge difference between Goku SSJ1 and SSJ2 and its all in the bangs
and aura change
and the plasma.
True but the problem is that the creators often forget to add in the details that distinguish the two from each other. Its like they forget themselves which form the character is supposed to be in
@crazywave6574 toriyama actually forgot that ssj2 existed and thought it was ssj3 for a while, That's probably why the design details aren't there.
@@mrmouse9476 I didn’t even know that but im not surprised
6:12 On the topic of Piccolo's Potential Unleashed type mode. I think that Dragon Ball has sort of glossed over it, but every character can get their potential awakened as a buff. Krillin and Gohan got their potential awakened by Guru, Gohan got his potential truly awakened by Supreme Kai. Which also brings into question why everyone hasn't went to the Supreme Kai or a similar godly figure to give them a Potential Unleashed type form. Especially with characters like Tien that are canonically meant to have some sort of true, hidden power, as well as being part alien himself (Yeah, Triclops is an alien species, I was just as confused when I found that out). Hell, now that I think about it, we never got any explicit confirmation that Goku OR Vegeta ever got a Potential Awakening.
I'd say nobody went to unleash their potential because they're all proud warriors and martial artists, so they find pleasure and motivation in the journey to master themselves. Every time someone has had their potential unleashed was because they were working against time, so they needed as you said a buff. Honestly thinking about it it would probably be the same with the Super Saiyan God ritual. I'm sure if Goku knew you could acces that form by training alone, and Beerus wasn't threatening to destroy the planet, he would have refused to undergo the ritual. As for Orange Piccolo I think it's just the reward that the dragon balls give proud namekian warriors who prove themselves, like way back in the Frieza Saga where they said that the Dragon Balls where rewards for warriors who surpassed some tests or something I don't remember really well
@@lluisrojasgarcia97I was referring to Power Awakened Piccolo not Orange. Shenron himself said he gave Piccolo an extra something on top of the awakened power.
2:50 not to be a nerd but accidentally saying “incarceration” instead of of incarnation is hilarious 😂
Yes that super sayian rage take is wild like where is the explanation for this man trunks not unlocking this after getting whooped by black until he went back in time and somehow has the motivation now
Bro I think I'd cry if dragon ball went back to classic martial arts I would love to see them do some crispy shit like like early Anderson silva did
Or like having Goku and Vegeta fighting someone that it really looks like they can't beat and they find a way to just straight up exhaust the power difference outta them
That’s what daima is
Imma be honest, after watching Carthu’s video on orange piccolo ive actually sorta come to love the transformation
11:20 to me goku making progress faster than vegeta for most of the series was about his of mastery martials arts, having multiple teachers and masters, if you notice goku until the cell saga he used to wear his orange gi with the symbol of the teacher until the cell saga implying that he became a "master" .(until super retconed it).
Vegeta was born with a much higher power level and never had a teacher or master before in his life, he learned how to sense and hide ki on the namek arc by himself, vegeta is just as talented, but for most of z he refused help and overworked himself, for example he was locked in with trunks in the hyperbolic time chamber and yet unlike gohan and goku, he didn't bond and train the same way gohan and goku did.
In conclusion vegeta fighting understanding/talent is comparable to goku maybe less but the difference maker is the fact that Goku works smarter and has deeper understanding of fighting in general imo.
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS VEGETA!
Na vegeta has never lost to goku he keeps up with less forms than goku,every fight they had vegeta won,as far as training goes whis literally tells him to let go of his grudge which did in the buu arc but was slowly coming back due to toyotaros terrible writing
@@zayzillions7319 Vegeta is a little bit too prideful the cell games showed it, he preferes to train his body beyond exhaustion that shit just looks cool to sigma male edits, there's no martial that people won't advocate to for you to train more effectively instead of training in volume.
This dude Vegeta wasted a second year of his life in the hyperbolic time chamber to stay the same.
He made the most progress when he actually had a master in whiss and then beerus, nobody learns everything by himself that's the bigger pictures here even in the Moro arc when he went and learned with yadrats.
Also Vegeta needed Majin to keep up with Goku in the Buu saga as well to prove my point further.
@@goncalosilva5369 vegeta didn’t need babidi’s power to keep up he wanted to be evil again so he allowed him to be susceptible to his magic,outside of character flaws which were addressed and retconned by Toyotaro vegeta has always been better than goku in terms of power growth he’s just nerfed by plot in favor of the goku show
@@goncalosilva5369 think about it Vegeta has never fallen behind severely and if he did he catches up easily,all he had to do was take it easy once in a while in which he did and guess what him and goku are currently dead even if not vegeta has a slight edge.Vegeta literally suffers due to plot
My wife willingly halted her birthing of our child so I could hear you, she's truly a catch
You literally explained why piccolo isn’t Mickey… dude literally trained by himself for decades and was ssj3 level… the main cast either needed new transformations and god training to get any stronger.
im being so serious , i’d rather him just been secretly training & unlocked the form. i get there’s a be different crowd on everything but “wishing for more power” is literally something kids talk about doing lmaoo it’s factually a power up just because zibes.
you don’t even disagree tbh, you just like the form.
@@TSO_Sage he never stopped training… he just couldn’t get the same gaines cause he’s not a saiyan
@@TheSkyrimps3 never said he stopped training. training didn’t unlock the form tho cmon now lol
@@TSO_SageI see ure point but piccolo was doing the same thing that gohan did unlock his potential like gohan did from giru and broke his potential by elder kai but yea it also kinda bummed me out the same way gohans beat did both orange and beast are undeserved tbh with u
Loving the DB content sage, we need more.
He's way more inform and thought on this topic compared to Naruto.
8:40 Goku already explained in the manga iirc that he doesn't stack Kaioken onto SSJ because the stamina drain is way too much. That's also why he doesn't use SSJ Blue with Kaioken too often... additionally, stacking them puts WAY too much strain on the body.
What is dumb tho is that Goku and the gang could've easily trained up there to unlock SSJ2 by that point and use their one day back to earth from the old witch (if she is still around) in order to defeat the androids.
OR BETTER YET, have King Kai communicate with Bulma a way to build a spaceship and use the one day wish in order to stalk the androids, and get bulma and trunks to new namek in order to use their dragon balls to either incapacitate the androids and wish everyone back (hell, we can even wish Trunks immortal as a joke at that point, although that might tick off beerus).
These are all methods that have been done in the series or shown to be completely possible so I am convinced that Toriyama just wanted the future timeline to be hopeless no matter what.
Gods shouldn't show favouritism or get involved in mortals affairs. its not his job to protect earth, especially when they made their own problems by creating the androids.
king kai only helps goku because hes his student. king kai only helps if theres a north galaxy or universal threat. the androids are only planetary
Bro really said beerus not really that evil ☠️☠️☠️ just cause he tolerates goku and earth dont mean him destroying planets for bad food disappears
Beerus isnt evil though. He's an indifferent god who's soul purpose is to destroy and make room for creation to do it's thing. Calling him evil would be like calling animals evil.
I saw a video of a komodo dragon once. It ripped open a pregnant fawn's belly and ate the baby while the fawn was still alive. I wouldn't call the komodo dragon evil. It's fucked up, yes. But not evil. And that's how a god of destruction is.
He's just doing his job he's not evil
@@treanmunt1420 so if your job was to eliminate innocent people then it justifies killing them?
@@datpotato3588yes it’s literally on a godly scale so yea it’s literally something sent from god to do
I NEEDED THIS VIDEO, MY GLORIOUS KING
I don’t think the orange piccolo thing was that crazy. He finds out about the unlocking potential after running into a stronger fighter. Goes to Dende to get unlocked, Dende didn’t know how. Dende says he upgraded Shenron. And shenron said he unlocked potential and gave him a little extra. Now was it more than a little extra yes, but wasn’t that over the top.
11:17 I hate this argument so much, that people think that Vegeta trained himself and figured out how to transform into a Super Saiyan God, when that's not true.
What is true, is that he didn't use the "Ritual" to become a God the first time like Goku, but Vegeta didn't learn it on his own how to unlock the divine powers, he was literally trained by an "Angel", who helped him how to discover those powers, because if Vegeta hadn't trained with Whis he would never have become the Super Saiyan God, without help or that ritual that Goku went through the first time.
"BAE SHUT UP THE GOAT TSO POSTED:
Get a grip gang smh
@@GeechieOG For real. Could never tell this to my girl. It's just so disrespect
@@Kings0424y'all really think he got a girl?😂
@@JBandZ36it's a bot 😂
@@Kings0424 no way you thought he said this out loud lol
Fat buu was not evil. He just didn’t know what he wanted to do, and didn’t realize he had free will
never seen anyone hate on super saiyan 2. Im pretty sure Goku fought in super saiyan 2 more than 1 in Super.
He did. Its not a bad transformation. Its better than ssj by a long shot. The problem isthat the artists sometimes forget to draw the distinction between ssj1 and 2. Also ssj3 is the most useless cause it takes too much energy to keep up. Goku says it multiple times. Why use it when u got ssj2 or super saiyan god?
People forget Goku died from natural causes and went to heaven and possibly doesn’t even have his body.
Edit: 15:57 I thought I was only one who wasn’t messing with the Super 17 arc.
On Piccolo being Mickey I view it as him having his limiter removed similar to Mystic Gohan.
You should do a video where you pick to random hot takes and do a tournament to see which one is the most valid.
6:00 kinda a miss take here 1. goku and vegeta arnt there so the point of why hasnt this been done before he didnt need to, once he figures out goku and vegeta are gonna be hard to reach he ask if dende can unlock his potential like guru did with gohan and krillin. dende says he doesn't have the ability so he ask if the dragon can do it . he can shenron unlocks his potential giving him the lime form "+ a bit extra" which is orange because piccilo who was once evil doesn't use the dragon balls for material gain so the dragon gifts him extra power 2, in Z i think they do decent jobn at portraying piccilos method of training and how its ineffective or less so due to him doing it solo he more focuses on base conditioning and special techniques. to were goku and roshii tryna make the best martial artist. the only real power up he really gets outside of namekian exlusives absobtions and this which also plays on his namekian ties. preping for the androids the first time hes doing martial arts training with someone else and isn't a tranier persay if you want you can count king kia trianing be4 nail fusion he gets a crazy boost. 3 dirctly coralating his training to his teaching i see were u comin from but piccolo is training saiyins the martial art aspect almost comes natrually too all of them but a young gohan ironiclly so piccilo being a guy with crazy techniques and just maintains his shape fits well as a mentor. espiaslly considering how nonchalant gohan is with training. the potential unleashes also seem to have a passive buff cause krillin went from 3kish to 10k after it happend but by time his second form frieza fight hes at 75k. considering gohan got to vegteta first appearance strength when he was weaker than nappa previously. you could make an argument for gohan always passively having potential cracks especially after the elder kia PU and as you say keeps him relevant one rage boost away. If orange is mickey then it extends to every potintial unlock to an extent. is his piccolo's power boost more BS for you because of the power jump or the new form
The dragon balls make sense, Ganoralah became the strongest at a cost. They had to upgrade the DB for Piccolo to unlock his potential. Plus we all wanted Piccolo to catch up
Yes you can tell when someone is using ss2, ss2 has lightning around the user but ss1 doesn’t, that’s what makes it more distinct
6:04 I would like to remind you that Orange Piccolo itself was not something piccolo was aware of, it simply came as courtesy from Shenron
8:40 goku had already stacked Kaioken on SSJ when fighting Pikkon btw, he called it ''Super Kaioken''
13:38 I hate when ppl say you can't tell ssj goku from ssj2 goku apart, the fucking bangs look different and vegeta's hairstyle NEVER changes with transformations basically so that's fair, adult gohan has a smaller bang in ssj that goes away at ssj2, but nothing too drastic either
Piccolo (fused with Kami) was the namek that created the dragon. That’s why orange piccolo was fitting. This also could be the “super namekian” that had been teased all through dragon ball. Also, he couldn’t have wished for the potential unleash because he never had the chance to after fusing with Kami.
I thought Piccolo wishing for his potential unleashed made sense since it was the fused version of king piccolo and kami who made the dragon balls it felt like a certain amount of power being returned to him
They could have come up with a better way to unlock the power but I'm just glad that piccolo might become relevant again
but isnt dendes dragon balls and not kamis?
I'd argue gohan achieving beast with that level of rage and lack of training is disingenuous to all the prior rage boosts he's had. It invalidates moments where he's most definitely even more angry (watching namekians kids die in front of him, krillin being presumed killed by frieza, cell jrs man handling his friends and family, etc.). To just say, this power always existed and how vastly it outscales anything in dragon ball or even most of DBS anime arcs (manga is a whole other can of worms, and obviously not including G.O.D's and angels).
Extra Note: Forgot to even mention piccolo's death. And yes ik this doesn’t make for an interesting story, but thats my point. Beast's existence invalidates prior stakes and it doesn’t help we know so little about it.
I may be on copium for this, but I figured that if Beast was an evolution of the Ultimate/Mystic/Potential Unleashed form, it'd make some sense why it hasn't appeared prior.
As for why it never happened during Super, well, he _was_ kinda washed. By the time he could access his full power again, he missed out on shit that could've triggered Beast.
I heavily disagree with his take on GT
GT is good
The dragon not only gave his potential unlocked(thats the light green looking piccolo) the little extra is the orange piccolo transformation
i heard gt all i thought was bull parara parara…….then a shed a few tears
What! Bro first take was crazy, Cell was a dog! He was legit all of them in one character and wanted the best fight like goku to prove he’s strongest. Cell was a great villain
Piccolo is the creator of the Dragon Balls, so he’s getting a boost from his own power. It’s the reason why Shenron gave him the extra boost
You mean kami & piccolo sr ? Technically only Kami made them, but i guess because piccolo & kami came back together later
I mean even if we say gohan has this crazy potential in order to overcome/rival his obstacles he still needed to train a good amount
Im so glad this channel started auto playing, i needed a new hyper fixation to listen to while driving around
Well it wasnt JUST piccolos potential, piccolos potential came in the form of the power awakening state where he was slightly yellowish green. But orange piccolo was the extra power that shenron granted him."all you have plus a little extra."
i never saw vegeta or frieza as martial artists
I always saw them as brawlers or free stylers
Worst take I've ever heard: Ox King has a power level of 900.
Wtf bro is stronger than Goku and Piccolo combined in beginning of DBZ??
@@ChadIs No. It's not true. People got confused about a trading card game and thought his card power was his power level. They created all kinds of head canon about it. Ox King is much weaker.
@Alassandros I know it's not true I'm exclaiming how ridiculous that sounds
@@ChadIs Ah. I see. Lol Yeah, ridiculous. I like to imagine Ox King just sitting there while King Piccolo killed Roshi, Krillin, and Chiaotzu.
The fact i recently watched the arc and didnt even know there was a ss rage means it sucks
I must disagree with Vegeta being the best character in DB by development …
-He still let his pride beat him wayyy before his opponent actually beats him
-He’s still obsessed with surpassing Goku when he should be using his family as motivation to surpass himself
-He went from being his own entity in DB only to be demoted to becoming a caricature of himself
-He still hasn’t grown as a fighter considering he still prefers to handle things by himself
As long as Vegetas pride is intact …He can never truly grow beyond Goku but that’s how Toriyama wants his character to be so🤷
11:08 He was given the god form, but I dont think we’ve seen Vegeta get it 👀
Okay, I wish to make a little argument for Orange Piccolo (You don't have to agree with me, just hear me out). When he made the wish, yes, he got pretty powerful... _HOWEVER_ when OP showed up, the voice-line that Shenron said showed up ("A little something extra") implying that was external intervention. Could you make the argument that kind of form shouldn't happen in DB? Yeah, in the same way Super Saiyan God shouldn't. But it should be remembered, this movie was originally for _Piccolo_ and Gohan was tagged in later, as such, this form has significantly more narrative relevance when looking through the movie than Beast does. But that's my opinion, do what you want with it.
I still want cooler to be cannon
Bro said Hot Take over the planet buster comment when I've been saying characters like Yamcha etc can easily destroy planets for YEARS
Need TSO to cook with the DBS manga content
In defense of Super Saiyan Rage, it didn't need to exist and yeah they should've explained more about it. However, my interpretation of it was that Super Saiyan Rage is what happens when a Saiyan tries to surpass Supwer Saiyan 2 through anger rather than training. If it was through training then they'd reach Super Saiayn 3 but through anger they would reach Rage. Or maybe the blue aura was from the god ki from goku and vegeta The design was good with the white eyes and aura they just didn't use it all the time. The name was stupid though but the transformation scene was badass. 🤷♂
Rage isn't ssj 3 level. It just got confirmed in the manga it's probably around god level because Goku, Vegeta and Whis just reacted to him transforming to it. Also Mystic gohan is pass ssj3. Beast to me is a mixture of ssj and mystic because for him to obtain Mystic he was elder Kai method which could connect to god ki.
all respect... i have 0 idea how anybody liked this lmaoo. mainly because the form by those metrics would have been achieved MUCH earlier and would be the most inconsistent form ever. Anger can be a significant amp to power but it's never been its own separate form. Goku & Vegeta raged to SSJ and Gohan to SSJ2, while Goku & Vegeta trained for SSJ2 and Gohan for SSJ.
But even if you were to still think rage could be an exclusive form, someone else in the series would have BEEN unlocked the form. You even speculate that it's not rage and its Trunks tapping into God Ki FROM OTHER CHARACTERS lmao which God Ki doesn't even work like that.
@@TSO_Sage Majin Buu was an awesome villain
@@TSO_Sage you cant do spirt bomb in super Saiyan
@@TSO_Sage they did Krillin dirty in the tournament of power. Super Saiyan 3 is the most useless form unless you do it dead it cant be maintained
ngl the only way i differentiate ssj2 and ssj is the hair spikes or the electricity around the body 😭
To be honest, if you’ve ever seen the Janemba movie, you’d understand the gohan super saiyan kaioken theory
Fusion reborn
Whats crazy is that technically Beerus allowed freiza to destroy planet vegeta. Dude was gonna do it himself but fell asleep before he got around to it😂
Piccolo is Piccolo, Nail and Kami, imagine the wish granted all of them with their potentials unlocked at once, since Piccolo is the 3 together.
Imma be real i never really got perfect cell. Like yeah first and second form cell were great because he had that motivation to become complete, which forced the heroes to try and play keep away with cell and the androids (who also wanted to kill them), but after getting absorbs 18 he looses that motivation. After that he’s just “i am strong, i want to see how strong i am, fight me.” Like i guess some people say that thats just the goku dna in his body just wanting to fight, but i dont think they played that up enough in the show for that to be really obvious. Also where was that thirst for fighting in his first and second forms?
I guess my hot take is that Majin Buus arc just doesn’t compare to the other arcs in Z in terms of writing and well action either
19:24 bad or not im just glad they gave my boi Something
You can tell when Goku uses ssj2 his bangs are different
GT has the best villain in DB that being Baby and his revenge against the Saiyans. And Super has the biggest low being a tingle in the back is what sparks going Super Saiyan.
I do think the time chamber should’ve been an option in the future for gohan and trunks
First hot take really hit me cause personally speaking I really liked Cell, he was a great villain
Gohan is the antagonist he gets so much screen time in the first 3 sagas of z then they nerf him in buu.
I hate beast gohan because it invalidates gohans whole arc about wanting to find a way to power that doesnt involve transforming
Nah, I'm sorry, blowing up 18 wasn't an option. Krillin isn't a cold blooded killer and the androids clearly weren't evil at that point, blaming Krillin for not getting his hands dirty to fix Vegeta's mess is ridiculous.
They literally killed people and tried to murder his friends wtf are u on yea he ain't a cold blooded killer but don't act like these androids were just minding their business come on
@@mulkmanto4797 The present 17 and 18 didn't kill anyone and spared his friends after being attacked, you need to rewatch the show.
@@balrogdemorgoth4741 I see how my comment was misconstrued I was saying even with the knowledge dat they murder not just his friends but basically take over da world wasn’t enough for him to do it is crazy when u think bout it bro u know that all u have to do is push a button and u save millions but hesitant because u thought she was cute and deserved redemption is wild that wasn’t his call to make I understand it I’m saying it is crazy
@@mulkmanto4797 Except he has no 'knowledge' that they do it, at best he heard 'the androids' as a whole killed everyone in the future, then he was clearly shown Trunks can be wrong and the future can change before seeing HIMSELF that the androids didn't even attack them and SPARED them.
She didn't need redemption, she literally did nothing wrong yet. You REALLY need to rewatch the show.
No, it is not crazy to not murder someone in cold blood because you heard an alternate self of theirs did something bad in the future.
@@balrogdemorgoth4741 trunks literally tells them wat happened in his world that's the reason they train before u say he thought it was the other androids he was there when trunks pointed out it wasn't them it was the other ones krillen knew it's ok I wasn't disagreeing he wasn't a killer he's not I pointed out he knew wat she did in the future trunks tells all of them
That last take. OH DEAR GOD.
1. It’s not Planet Vegeta, it’s Planet Sadala, it has an ENTIRELY different society than Planet Vegeta.
2. IF and I mean *IF* there’s a royalty there on Sadala, the king is NOT gonna give Vegeta the crown because *VEGETA ISN’T THE PRINCE TO U6 SADALA* because it’s not HIS RIGHT TO RULE OVER.
3. Vegeta is LONG past his days of a Royal Elite conquering Saiyan. Having him do that dumbass transition in U6 of all places is kinda like undoing it all.
4. Vegeta ain’t gonna be teaching the Saiyans of U6, he’s got Cabba to deal with, he ain’t got time to teach a whole civilization except sparring with some who he deems worthy of battling. If there’s gonna be a person to teach SSJ, it’s gotta be Cabba as he’s part of the Sadala Defense Force…but until Vegeta beats him over the head on how to PROPERLY trigger SSJ and not rely on that STUPID back method, Cabba ain’t ready to teach SSJ to other Saiyans of his universe besides Kale and Caulifla.
Sage dounds like he only watched GT dub not sub and it’s a shame because sub really helps realize the ideas of the narrative much better. The dialogue can be so drastically different in instances that it entirely changes how you interpret it.
seen it sub, same exact take bro lol. emotion or ideas was never an issue with the series.
tbh you kinda siced it lol but anyways the language/interpretation doesn’t change my thoughts on super 17 being dumb & his doctor worse, any dragon outside of nova being annoying, goku having fodder fights in hell, parapara, and nasty callbacks.
@@TSO_Sage I gotta admit ain’t no saving Super 17, from what I’ve heard there were problems in the writers room that lead to an through that arc. Shadow dragon saga though is where sub really matters. Most of the dragons are the way they are due to the wishes they were created from. Sin shenron once he becomes omega start talking to Goku different. Trying to get him to understand something without directly stating it. Goku upon facing certain death realizes what Omega was getting at and is reborn leaving his Earthly desires behind. I can’t exactly give a well structured breakdown of it as I am not studied in Buddhism but SethTheProgrammer has a great breakdown of GT that can go more in depth than me. At least if you can get past his history on the platform and impact on the wider anime community. But what I can say is GT had the most narratively satisfying conclusion to the Dragon Ball story and gives the series a genuinely beautiful send off despite its shortcomings as a sequel and Dragon Ball IP. Also yeah I definitely played too much Buddokai Tenkaichi 3 as a child. I still refer to Jeice as Juice because of Chi Chi’s library.
I’m pretty sure Goku isn’t with King Kai in future trunks timeline he’s just straight up in heaven.
I mean who else but Piccolo to ask Shenron to be stronger, he literally was attached to earths dragon balls
11:01 No. It was specifically stated that the only way make a super saiyan god is to have the ritual. Vegeta popping up with SS Blue through training goes to show how bad DBSuper writing is.
While I like Cell, one of the things that take away from him is the fact that he steals and uses other character abilities. Which makes sense due to what he is, but Frieza was wholly original (minus the energy discs which he didn't steal). I still like Cell, just not as much as Frieza. Is he a great villain? I would say so. I think him regenerating from semi perfect to perfect is a stretch, but the fan base has accepted it, so who am i?
I. Surprised your gt takes didn't start a flame war. GT fans have been on a mission to rewrite history to make that series seem better than it actually was.
Ive always said GT is hella disappointing. It tried to recreate the og dragon ball feel and failed miserably. Turning goku into a kid was a big turn off for me. And him being a adult in ssj4 made it worse for me.
People are hyping GT for a form and 1 arcs worth of good material. The baby saga and half of the shadow dragon saga. Which im glad someone else mentioned how ass more tban half the shadow dragins were. Only 3 where remotely interesting and actually strong enough to pose a threat. The rest relied to heavily on gimmicks and comedy.
Super in my opinion is disappointing in some aspexts. But super has way more highs than lows and supers lows arent nearly as bad a GT.
And yes ive watched GT in full. Some people do hate on it without ever watching it. But i recently tried to watch it again and its nowhere near as good as people make it out to seem.
The action jist wasnt their and alot of the complaints people make of super are just as bad in GT. Goku is dumb asf in GT. Him being a kid doesn't excuse it. Because hes onlu in his kid body
The argument that goku was smarter in GT gets killed when you see goku shoot another x10 Kamehameha at super 17 despite him clearly seeing he can absorb ki. Ssj4 became just as useless as blue because if you watched GT. He was only ever defeated 1 out of 3 main villains with the form. He used the super dragon first to kill super 17. He outright couldn't beat omega in ssj4 and required a spirit bomb to kill him. Both of these cases goku was in his base form.
Most of the main cast was useless in GT but at least in super you got more impacfull moments from character like piccolo ,gohan, krillan, the androids and even made freiza look better than he was in GT.
Its just not a real conversation when you conpare GT to super.
My hottest take: Gohan vs Cell (before Super Saiyan 2) is one of the worst fights in the series
You didn't like how they stopped to talk ever 5 minutes? 😂
I honestly don't even count that part as a fight. Gohan wasn't even trying.
hell outside of the 3 moments we all know and love, the entire fight is highkey ass
I don’t talk about Dragon Ball with people who haven’t seen the original run the series continuity 1984-1995 anything after that is DLC.
Bro your take on orange piccolo is horrible the most idiotic thing ive ever heard "why is he orange", "he just asked shenron for an ssj2 ass pull" tf you mean hes orange because the original dragon balls kami made fused into him, its not an anywhere near as much of an ass pull as ssj2 nor is it as much as a ass pull like gohan himself its literally the dragon balls granting their creator all of their power and turning into combat strength
Shittest take ever on orange piccolo actually should smacked for it
1:25
Dragon ball z Hasn’t had a great villain since frieza? So we ignoring cell, and majin buu?
Hot take: Akira should've stopped after the airing of dbz . His health and memeory was gone at that point . Yes we got battle of gods but we also got horrrible super
Super saiyan is just rage I dunno why that for even has a separate distinction. Not counting kid Trunks and Goten who got ssj in a patch because of power creep. 💀
Even if fortune tellar baba wasnt killed by the androids she would very likely have abandoned earth and just hid in other world
In the super anime Goku put the multiverse at risk to 4:30
13:32 actually you can tell because the aura has lightning added to the super Saiyan aura
14:54 Goten GT got more screen time fighting than Goten. Goten fought baby and if it counts baby Goten fought Gohan, vegeta, and Goku.
FRIEZA NOT RACIST!! He literally calls the saiyan race monkeys, used them as slaves to do his dirty work, and wipe out all but 4 of them (raditz, nappa, vegita, goku) who were off world in DBZ saga
Okay this take doesn't feel too hot, but Gohan getting angry over certain things doesn't work anymore unless you give him a reason that he hasn't found already. If you've seen your close friends and family be mutilated, blown up and stomped out in your face, that trauma is hard to live with. The fact that he still goes throught his day without even mentioning any of this stuff and pouring tears is enough to say that Gohan probably shouldn't get rage boosts anymore and beast maybe shouldn't exist.
That being said, we still dont have an actual reason as for why fear overrides the need to go super saiyan, because he should have gone super on Namek at the latest. If it were like the hulk where adrenaline triggers the transformation it would be good, but it's supposed to be this primal fury that really just doesn't actually exist for any character besides Goku apparently.
4:45 they get mad at Beast but this forget Gohan got like 1,000 times stronger versus Raditz as a 4 year old😭 Beast probably ain’t even his biggest random boost
My question is since Ultimate Gohan isnt super saiyan could he go Ultimate Gohan+Kaioken? Ik its a Goku exclusive and sounds fanficy buttt in theory
5:07 I have a problem with that Gohan in the movie, and especially that transformation that he pulled out of his ass, and one argument is enough to validate my negativity towards that transformation and him, even though I have more than one, but i will only give one, and it's only two words, and whoever doesn't understand them you are not a true Dragon ball fan.
Future Gohan.
Thoughts on Baby for the "not a great villain" take?
same as Beerus , he’s much more of an antagonist vs a true evil villain
Y'know now that I think about it tien just aimed a little to the side and blasted 18 we probably wouldn't have any problems with cell since eventually vegeta and trunks would come out and just kill him
How in the absolute hell is Base Kefla stronger than SSG goku. That makes no sense whatsoever. Now, I think about it the biggest, if not one of the biggest issues with DBS, is the inconsistent storytelling and power scaling of the entire series. This is the first time in my life I can't even tell which is better between anime or manga.
20:40 bro just stated kakumei's plot
Although i don't fully agree that we hadn't had a great villain since dbz frieza (although i do think he is the best villain), i think cell and his entire arc is indeed overrated.
Gero, android 19, android 17, 18, and 16 were thrown at the viewer in hopes that people would like them as the "main antagonists" but cell was the best one to become a villain so everything before cell appears is a waste of time. That's like 1/3rd of the entire arc.
Cell himself is a great concept but is mostly a pushover and a coward until he absorbs 18. Piccolo could've killed him in their first encounter if cell didn't use solar flare. Vegeta could've killed him in his 2nd form, but he was way too confident and let him become perfect. Even trunks could've killed him if vegeta gave him the chance. He isn't very intimidating or anything in those moments. Just another weak pushover that gets demolished by vegeta. That's 1/3rd of the arc where the main villain is a pushover and coward.
Cell, in his perfect form, does become a good villain. He demolishes vegeta, makes trunks give up, waltzes in a news station to announce the cell games, has a very intense fight with goku that tests goku out tremendously, and even he gave up. But he then starts going down the vegeta route when he fights gohan. Purposely lets him get stronger to the point that cell can't beat him and gets demolished even after a zenkai boost. When frieza caused goku to get stronger, it was unintentional, and it was basically karma for everything that frieza has done. Cell was basically like vegeta was when vegeta fought cell in his 2nd form. All those IQ points gone to waste.
For the SSJ2 stuff, the reason it’s irrelevant is bc Toriyama forgot it exists and jst did SSJ3 jst because
Wait technically frieza isn't racist he only did what he did was because beerus commanded him to get rid of them
Cell was a great bad guy
0:12 i agree on the frieza great villain take, but i would only push that to the androids. the idea of cell is fantastic, slinking around and having to outplay the heroes to get to his full power, but perfect cell is mid
3:22 did this person get hot takes confused for wrong takes because i'm pretty sure you can't get more racist than blowing up a race's home planet
Regarding the Future Gohan part I get Kami would be dead because Piccolo is gone but you really telling me Popo couldn’t have gotten to Gohan and had him and Trunks train in the time chamber? The Androids can’t sense energy and nobody really knows about the lookout other than Goku really. Plus Yajirobe is still alive. Kind of Mickey to me 🤔
nah dr gero was watching goku throughout the whole time he was at earth with a robotic butterfly. so he would know where master roshi place, korin and kamis lookout is. he even probably know chi chi and gohan too
I wish I coulda joined in on this cuz I wanna know if people think it's a bad take to just act like numbering the power system never happened
I'm rewatching Z rn and its just more fun pretending the numbers don't exist
Like I don't feel like it's dumb idk
im sure im alone on this but goku black deserves more respect, im a sucker for a complex character and hes up their in complexity. it sucks how he got defeated but his character arc was cool to me
Say Goku is smarter than Vegeta all you want, but Goku would have never thought to steal the dragon balls off of Freeza’s ship like Vegeta did. Goku is a smarter fighter, but Vegeta is a smarter tactician. That’s always how I viewed it. Hot take: But I feel like Vegeta actually regressed after the Namek saga because he never tries smart plays like that again. That’s why he always rushes in and gets stomped, his pride was so damaged that he was fighting denial for years. It’s actually what holds him back the most because despite his pride being the main thing he bases his sense of self on majority of the series, if Vegeta had just been more humble knowing he would lose certain fights like he did in the namek saga and he actually trained I’d argue he could have eclipsed Goku’s strength since Vegeta was already born a stronger fighter than Goku. Literally the only reason he doesn’t improve as fast is because he insists on his way.
Im specifically talking about Vegeta training at an earlier point in his life. Obviously I know he trains.
You can’t use the god argument against Goku because honestly vegeta would have never gotten the form without whis help
And goku 100% deserved the form, without goku there wouldn't be enough sayians to have this ritual in the first place.
It is weird that it's like a rock paper scissors beats Vegeta but Vegeta never beats the villain but the villain never beats Goku essentially. There more nuance than that but you can sum it up like that...
I agree with you about ssj looking the same on everyone except teen Gohan EXCEPT for Goku. His hair noticeably changes in the front. Not a huge change but it is noticeable. Everyone else agree 100% tho.
Frieza is the best villian in DBZ. But Cell, Super Buu and his transformations & Kid Buu were also really good villains.
The issue with Buu is that he's just not a consistent character. Like start to finish Frieza is the same guy, Cell changes a little when he achieves his perfect form but he's mostly the same guy. Buu is literally, like, 7 different personalities and characters throughout the arc. It's hard to build a strong connection with really any version of Buu because he's just vastly different, like, maybe 5 episodes later
Frieza is the worst 'villian'
@@billy75chook80 that’s one of the worst Dragon Ball takes i’ve ever heard
@@RuanAntunes7 out of cell, frieza and buu, frieza is the worst "villian" in quotations
I can agree with people that buu is a lesser villain than Cell, Frieza and vegeta, specially when it comes to depth but dammit i love him anyway, just because his pure evil chaotic unhinged energy is so different. Why can't we have crazy villains who're crazy for crazyness sake? I mean Buu was supposed to be a demon right???
I think that he's perfect for that 3rd saga where Goku feels Like he's in control of everything, then its obvious that the villain would look like a funny joke to him.
(Also we have the Vegetto beating down Buuhan wich is fucking awesome
The reason people like GT is because of GT Vegeta, and SSJ4
My hot take is that the transformations severely fuck up the scaling and make characters like Goku and Vegeta seem weak as hell and undermines their training. Think about the Tournament of Power, we see characters like Android 17, Hit, Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, etc. keep up with and in Jiren's case FAR surpass Super Saiyan Blue Goku & Vegeta, but all of those characters are always in their base forms as that's all they have. If that is the case, why the fuck are Goku and Vegeta's base forms so weak? We know that Goku and Vegeta's god forms make them hundreds of thousands - millions of times stronger, so does that mean that if Android 17 can keep up with Goku and Vegeta then he is millions of times stronger than their base forms? How? Am I to assume that each and every one of those characters trained millions of times harder than Goku and Vegeta? I just wish the series would finally put some respect on the base forms of these characters. With the way it looks now it honest to god feels like Yamcha could walk up to base Goku and Vegeta and just beat the dog shit out of them. Seriously, limit Goku and Vegeta to only their base forms in the TOP and they're getting their pockets ran by Ribrianne alone. It's so frustrating to think about
SSJ2 is really the only SSJ form they use