In the actual battle, a private named William H Carney saw the flag-bearer shot and mortally wounded. He caught the flag before the colors hit the ground and held it at the base of the sand fort, just like Tripp did. And he was shot multiple times, just like Tripp was. Unlike Tripp, however, Private Carney survived, albeit barely. Too badly wounded and losing blood, he made his way back slowly to the regimental camp, refusing help from white Union soldiers along the way. When he finally reached the 54th encampment, he said “the old flag, never touch the ground,“ and then collapsed. He survived the battle, was promoted to sergeant and survived the war. In 1900, 36 years later, he became the first Black American soldier to receive the Medal of Honor, the highest American award for military valor. Only 88 Black Americans have ever received it.
Carney wasn't mortally wounded, he lived until 1908. There is a monument to him in Norfolk, Virginia, the city where he was born into slavery before escaping north to Massachusetts.
That would have been nice for the producers to add in the end credits at least. They missed more than one opportunity to honor the accolades these men received.
so he snubbed the union troops who lost 350k fighting to end slavery. this unit was a drop in a bucket full of white northern young men who righted a terrible wrong. Carney can kiss my ass.
The sergeant major has a point. "Let him grow up some more". Thomas lived a shielded and protected life. He grew up in it. And the only way for the Sergeant major to keep him alive once the fighting starts, is to rip him out of the illusion of safety and shielded living, and prepare him for the harshness and brutality of war.
@@Roadghost1969 the scenes, first with the crying Thomas that wishes to speak to Robert, because he needs the comforting words of a friend, only to be rejected because it is not protocol, and the later scene with them wishing each other a genuine merry christmas. It shows the growth of Thomas, and the understanding that Robert did what he had to do. He didn't do it to spite Thomas, but to protect him.
True. You see that "growing up" pay off in the end, when Thomas uses the bayonet countermove during the fight at Ft. Wagner, that he was exposed to during boot camp (right before he sadly is stabbed in the back)
Exactly... he had the blood of John Brown in him and he was a heart felt abolitionist. Poetic license and his reputation is sullied by this characterization.@@henrikvridstoft2774
The other soldiers can't see Thomas being friendly with the commanding officer, because it will seem that he is getting special treatment and that can foment discord among the troops. The soldiers all need to be on equal footing and they need to feel like they are all in it together. Feeling resentment toward this or that soldier because it appears they are "in the boys club" will put others in danger during battle. Shaw is doing the right thing by treating Thomas as a proper soldier.
Exactly. When their training sarge made the comment about Thomas growing up he was also talking to Shaw who was clearly feeling uneasy himself. Shaw not showing favoritism and allowing Thomas to become a soldier the right way as every other man there was a respectful act of tough love for them both to mature.
In the military it's called the chain of command. No enlisted person can just approached his commanding officer without going through the proper channels. The colonel, I forget his name, was trying not to show favoritism to Thomas and had to do his part to instill the military discipline they would all need going forward. It's not a question of his humanity..
It would also be a case of 'jumping the chain of command' since the Private answers to probably 2 possibly 3 officers before you get to the Commanding Officer of the Regiment, the Colonel (who happens to be a childhood friend).
@@davidcorriveau8615 You are correct and not just coming 2-3 he’s jumping practically all of it. If he wished to make a complaint to their commanding officer he’d need to first meet with his company sergeant. The sergeant would either deem the issue reasonable to be brought up further in the chain or quash it there - I.e. if someone was to say have a minor injury or feel ill, do you think it reasonable to get the officers involved vs just the sergeant going “go to the medical staff and have it checked out”. If the situation is deemed severe enough or that it cannot be dealt with by a sergeant - say a man was having issues of pay, and that he was not receiving it or that he had found acts of misdoing amongst other men of the regiment - he would be sent to meet the company lieutenant and/or captain (note if it’s something more minor the lieutenant would be the one to deal with it, if quite severe the captain would be forced to deal with it) however those two would only be expected to deal with said situation if it pertained to their company not someone else’s. - the only exception of going higher than these two for a private would be in a situation where it is the lieutenant and captain being accused of crime. At which point the man would likely get to speak with the regiments major or senior sergeant. Note after he has dealt with these senior people, the private would not actually then go onto speak with the actual major, lieutenant-colonel or colonel. Instead it would be his captain who’d be expected to take this information up the line if it was most severe for these higher up to deal with. And it would be the lieutenant-colonel or colonel who’d be expected to relay information onto their brigade commanders who’d then pass it up to division and army if most severe. However, stuff would usually never get this far. The only time such a private would be allowed to speak with the colonel would be in invitation of passing on information he may have - I.e. if he is witness to a crime or situation or he has something to report given to him by other senior personnel. The only other exception would be if the colonel choose to speak with the private at his own choice however such would be discouraged incase of showing favouritism - I.e. if Shaw was to speak with Thomas normally and was treated with a bit more lenience compared to his fellow soldiers this may breed a resentment for the man or amongst some an idea to use said man to persuade the colonel of officer to do as they wish.
To be fair, Robert probably should have explained that to Thomas before training started, since Thomas would have had no way of knowing that. His friends were both officers and had a general battlefield camaraderie; it very well might not have occurred to him that an enlisted man would be in a different position.
The confederate army tried to shame Robert Shaw's family by saying we buried him with "coloured people", His father replied with “We would not have his body removed from where it lies surrounded by his brave and devoted soldiers...We can imagine no holier place than that in which he lies, among his brave and devoted followers, nor wish for him better company - what a body-guard he has!”
When you said that Shaw seemed both excited and scared at the responsibility of leading a new regiment on his own, I agreed. Also, he was only 23 years old at the time.
One of my top 5 films of all time. Unlike films like Braveheart and The Patriot this is how you make an historically accurate movie. Makes me cry everytime I watch it.
Burying Shaw, a white officer, with black troops was meant to be an insult to him. Later when it was offered to move Shaw's body to a officers cemetery his father said to leave him in honor with his men.
Thanks for that info. Since the Fort was never taken, it must have been the people on the Fort that buried him. I had missed the point. I am from India and not very conversant with the Us historical details. Regards,
In actuality, Confederate soldiers just wouldn't have Wasted Time separating whites from blacks. They were simply disposing of dead bodies, but people like to Pretend there was more to it, because Americans like to Pretend they are more than they truly are...😂😂😂
The other option to the flogging was being shot. The commander was trying to train them to a competent level so when they got to fight they had a better chance of success. The 54th was well trained despite having problems like getting supplies from the quartermaster. They preformed well in battle due to the good training they received.
Glory has a special place in my heart. It’s so incredibly moving. There are lots of people who I don’t think grasp how awful, bloody, and horrific the civil war was.
When you guys couldn't understand why he told his friend that he needs to go through the proper channels to speak to his commanding officer, it's because he cannot show favoritism. That was the way in which all soldiers had to speak with their commanding officer. Just because the guy was his childhood friend doesn't mean he gets special privileges or treated differently. It would have been hard for Robert to do that, but he was right in doing that Denzel got flogged in front of everyone because that was the punishment for deserting. Most likely that was the punishment for anyone who deserted, regardless of race.
Telling an officer not to fraternize with an enlisted man is correct. No matter the color of either of them. It's still the rule in the military. For instance, officers' quarters are completely separate (when possible) from enlisted living quarters. You hope that officers and enlisted personnel are basically friendly to each other at work, but there is still a level of being "reserved" around one another. Lots of movies show officers and enlisted being close friends, but at the end of the day, everyone has to understand that there is still a social separation to be observed. Combat does tend to blur the lines, though, as you've seen.
Agree- similarly, you generally don't jump the hierarchy of communication- you talk to your immediate boss or superior- you don't approach the commander/general
@@kellymoses8566the boundary between enlisted and officers still exists and is needed. A big reason that it is needed is that those in a leadership position must be fair and impartial. If there is no separation then the leaders friends are rewarded and not those most responsible. Just like the leader could show leniency their friends and be harsh to those they dislike.
@@kellymoses8566 same food, bit back then most officers paid for their own food. Better pay equals more money for food. And the housing isn't that much better between enlisted and officer's. In some cases the housing is worse on base.
The reason Tripp was flogged was he had been caught Deserting. They had no idea why he ran away, only that he had. Desertion in wartime is usually punishable by death. A lot of soldiers in the Civil War that did and were caught were executed by firing squad. So flogging was actually a lenient punishment. However, given that Tripp had formerly been a slave wasn't the best way to handle it either. If Colonel Shaw had wanted to be lenient but not flog Tripp he could have ordered a buck & gag or similar punishment.
@@karlmoles6530The way I heard it was that the US army(Union) outlawed flogging in the first few months of the war. Since the 54th Massachusetts wasn’t formed until the Emancipation Proclamation a year and a half later, a black soldier would not have been flogged. Actually, for desertion he would have more likely been hanged.
Battery Wagner (site now underwater) was never taken. However, the 54th was the ONLY regiment to gain access to the east wing of the of the battery and held it for over an hour before being repulsed. Shaw was an early casualty as portrayed in the movie and was buried along with his men. There is a beautiful monument in Boston (seen at the end) that commemorated the 54th.
Technically that's correct, it was never taken by force, though it continued to be under siege for a while, until the Confederates simply couldn't stay anymore, probably from a lack of provisions. Then, they just kind of slipped away, quietly. That's what I read and heard anyway. One Confederate soldier supposedly spoke of Fort Wagner being 'the closest thing to Hell' he could imagine.
He didn't invent flogging, it was a prescribed punishment. Firing squad was his other option. He wasn't seeking personal validation, he was tasked with proving that black soldiers were viable soldiers. He was actually very liberal and forgiving for the era. Life was harsh.
Exactly. Flogging had been a standard punishment in every army since the Roman legions. It was applied to both white and black soldiers in the Civil War. Desertion (leaving post without permission) could have been dealt with by firing squad, so Tripp got off "easy." In a strange way, if Robert had forgiven Tripp and not done anything, it would have been an insult to Tripp- meaning that he had not earned the right to be treated as a "real" soldier. I thought Morgan freeman was just as deserving of an Oscar as Denzel Washington- two of the best performances in any war movie ever. More young people should be watching films like this instead of "The Avengers" and other ridiculous fluff. Kudos to these two young ladies for bringing this to the attention of their audience..
We know for the punishment of desertion in the Union army you could be hung shot or flogged it really depends on if you got a court marshal trial during the Fredericksburg campaign following the emancipation proclamation few hundred union soldiers deserted Lincoln spent days pardoning and exonerated these men that were condemned to death by hanging and or firing squad
yeah, the point Shaw is making by his behavior is that these men are treated just as white men are treated. Black or white, these men are soldiers of the US Army. The don't get better, nor worse treatment than their white brothers.
You both are right that the Colonel and the Drill Sergeant were very tough....and the whipping scene was the first time I was so bothered in a movie when I saw this at 12. But to prepare them for what was to come...a world were all compassion, remorse, humility and happiness would not exist on the battlefield. They had to make it hard...if not harder since they were the first black regiment. They didn't want to give any impression whatsoever that they were holding back with the toughness of the training. So as hard as it is to watch...seeing them perform in combat the way they did with honor and valor and courage only magnifies the type of training they received despite the hurdles, intolerance and pitfalls. The last minutes before the final battle still make my eyes flood with tears. A very powerful movie. You guys did a great job with your reaction.
My high school history teacher was in this movie. He had taken part in Civil War reenactments and the filmmakers recruited them to be extras in the battle scenes. Glory is one of my favorite movies of all time. It had tremendous impact on me back then. I'll never forget the collective gasp in the theater when they raised the Confederate flag. The realization hit us that the battle was lost.
I guess the idea, re the flogging, is that in the military, rules are rules. If you bend any active rule (even a cruel or extreme one) for one soldier, you essentially weaken the rule of law and the chain of command.
The voiceovers read by Matthew Broderick throughout the movie are from letters written home by the real Colonel Shaw. Always thought that was cool so you know how Shaw felt.
The flogging scene is my favorite Denzel scene from all his movies. I'm sure it contributed greatly to him getting his Oscar for Best Supporting Actor. When the credits roll at the end they are displayed over a beautiful monument showing Shaw leading the troops. 11x14 feet in size, it was erected across the street from the Massachusetts State House here in Boston in 1884. Thanks for watching and reviewing this great film!
This is one of my all time favorite movies. Every member of the cast brings their A-game to the screen but Denzel, in particular, shines and received an Academy Award for his performance.
The movie started with Shaw cowering in the prone position. In the end he felt the same fear but cleaned his pistol and pressed on. Determined to match his soldier's sacrifice. He knew this was the end. When the standard bearer fell with his final breath he let out a bloodcurdling scream to urge his men forward. And Tripp finally meeting a white man he learned to not utterly despise, thinks: "This is the last white man thats going to die for me. Time to ante up and kick in goddamnit." Counting the amount of times I cry in this movie is impossible.
10.30 You have to remember this is 1800s and Enlisted and Officer ranks did not fraternize. Also, these troops had no training at all and the colonel had to turn them into an effective unit for the times.
I saw this at the theater when it first came out and remember most how quiet it was as everyone waited until the last credit rolled. I think it still holds up very well, doesn't look dated in any way. Enjoyed your reactions as always.
I watched this movie when I was 10 and it was the first time I wanted to cry at the end of a movie I didn't know you could kill the "good guys" in a movie, great video and reaction!
When he told Thomas that he had to go through proper channels to talk to him, he was doing it so as not to play favoritism. There's a way to do things in the military - and if he breaks the rules for the people who are his friends, he has to break them for everybody. Going by the book is harsh when you're in the military. They flogged Denzel because he deserted. He ran away. The punishment for running away was flogging. A harsh punishment, but those were the rules. The Colonel was carrying out the rules of the military. If he hadn't flogged Denzel, he would have been neglecting his duty. People don't have to like it or agree with it, but they should understand why without judging him too harshly. In a military situation equal treatment sometimes means equally harsh.
9:51 "Enlisted men wishing to speak to their Commanding Officer must first get permission." "Wow." "He grew _up_ with this guy." Yes, but now they're both members of the same military _unit_ and this is the _reality._ Shaw is an _officer._ Searles is undergoing training to join the _enlisted_ ranks. Officers have to keep professional _distance_ for the sake of unit _morale._ He dares not give special treatment to _Searles_ that he can't give to the _rest_ of the unit. That wouldn't be fair to _them._
I just finished watching Glory (1989) after seeing Saving Private Ryan (1998) and Schindler's List (1993). Three masterpiece films of cinema. I saw Glory many times in the early-90s. Still an amazing movie after 34 years. With Oppenheimer out, I'm in a binge watch for war films even if many of them are heavy to rewatch. Glory's music is soaring! Thank you to the late-James Horner and the Boys Choir of Harlem. Now that's a very moving war movie about sacrifice and about two races coming together as one. I still have tears in my eyes because how much emotion I felt watching it so many years later. Listen to Glory's "Charging Fort Wagner" and the closing credits. It's the same unbelievable feeling after you see the ending to The Shawshank Redemption and Top Gun: Maverick. The music absolutely soars!! Glory is the only film I ever liked Matthew Broderick in. I always found him too soft in other films. Glory has one of the best end credit songs next to the mediocre-rated Far and Away (1992) which had Enya's "Book of Days" at the end. Now that Enya song feels epic after you watch Far and Away. John Williams worked for that film and it's amazing like pretty much any of his work. Glory is a film to never forget. It's a film I first saw maybe when I was 11 or 12 on cable circa 1991-1992 and made me want to write a history report on the Civil War in the 6th grade (1992-1993). Still remains one of the greatest films I've ever seen. I'm not African-American but I want those who are to always be proud of the events chronicled by this great film.
Thank you, ladies for sharing your reaction and thoughts with us on this movie. If you’re interested in US Civil War history, another excellent film is Lincoln (2012). The thing that struck me about Robert was that he was so young. He was 26 when he was killed. I think a lot of his shortcomings early in the movie represent how he was learning to exercise independent command and to govern himself. Going from Captain to Colonel, a three step promotion, is a huge jump in responsibility and he was a very new Captain when he was promoted. When I think back to when I was 26, I would have frozen up too in many of the situations he was placed in. That the 54th did as well as they did in the forlorn hope at the fort and later in the war speaks volumes about the men’s courage and determination and Shaw’s leadership.
Yes! Lincoln (2012)! also on the top 5 best movies of all time! Spoiler alert the other 3 nobody's heard of. Dirty dozen , Last of the Dogmen and Tears of the sun
As a former Marine, I can assure you that, with the exception of the flogging, military training is much the same today as depicted in the film. Rules against fraternizing between soldiers and officers are essential to unit cohesion. An officer may be required to send soldiers into harm's way, and therefore cannot have friendship cloud their decision to do so. The harsh treatment of soldiers in training is designed to discourage individuality in favor of unquestioning obedience and teamwork. This is what turns a group of strangers into an army, instead of just a bunch of guys running around shooting guns. Great reaction to one of the best films about the Civil War ever made. 👌
They flogged Trip because that was the standard punishment in the military for deserters at the time. Actually if I remember right deserters were usually punished with death so technically they went easy on him.
Agree- soldiers (black and white) needed to be trained hard and disciplined if they were to follow orders successfully during a battle, win the battle, and survive. Comment by karlmoles6530 is correct; Tripp was deemed to have deserted from the army, and he was lucky that he was not executed. Either way, he left camp and was "absent without leave" (AWOL) which deserved punishment, which was harsh back then. In the Revolutionary War and earlier, soldiers could be flogged with 100 lashes (although they were not all done at once).
its an "under the radar" movie. Won 3 oscars and though its not entirelly historical, the government (years after) had a request to to retrieve Shaw and his family said " no, he's honored to be buried along his men". not only wasn't he not aa racist like most were back then, he was a "beacon", died at 27-28, supposedly charging "Battery Wagner" . There are men whose deeds are just impossible to explain, this is one of them.....and im not even American ;)
I saw this in the theater and the flogging was by far the most upsetting scene in the film for audiences, judging by the complete silence except for the sniffing and crying going on. The public flogging was standard procedure, however, and it was necessary -- to show the other men the penalty for deserting and discourage other deserters. Regardless of race. The colonel was actually treating the soldiers with respect for their safety, by insisting on proper training, treating everyone the same (how he instructed Thomas to act like any other soldier with him) and concern for their safety in battle. And as we saw, the flogging, given the context, was upsetting to the colonel too, and was the impetus for him getting the soldiers their just uniforms, shoes, pay, and respect from other officers outside the unit, going forward.
You have to understand the flogging part as punishment in the army at the time was not given out on racial grounds, floggings was standard practice regardless of race, white soldiers suffered this form of punishment also if they committed a crime. The problem with flogging black soldiers is that floggings was also the form of punishment handed out to black slaves for doing the wrong thing. Robert HAD to administer the flogging punishment even though it is typically used against black slaves. It was standard military punishment.
7:10 I noticed that you both had a weird face about how he was treating the men, it's not because he was being mean, he was only trying to instill accuracy, more training for whet thy would see on the battlefield. Seal training in the US is the same way but more. And if yall watched Lone Survivor you would more understand. The training officer was trying to makes them more aware of what war was. He knew the were all tough He also saw that the commanders friend needed a little bit of growing left, he was making him tougher.
Nevermiind on yall watching Lone survivor. I watched you both react to it. Anyway you have to be really hard on someone, because you may need that later in boot camp or Hell week for military training, it's not only the body you have to train, it's the brain. A person has to be trained to reach deep within yourself the Will to survive. Th only way to do that is to break someone and have them see it for themselves. Everyone has a will to survive, but you must know how to use it when and if that time comes. War sucks, Seal training was easy, but real war sucks.
Other than Robert Gould Shaw, the other characters in his regiment are fictional. William Carney won the Medal of Honor for saving the regimental flag during the assault at Battery Wagner (South Carolina).
He's not just finally showing the colors that you're wanting to see now.... He's been showing those colors the entire time. He treated them like soldiers regardless of skin color. He treated them the same way of white soldier would have been treated at that time. No special treatment, no over corrections, everything by the book. And when the military did them wrong by paying them less just because of their skin color, he again said that he was coming his troops by not taking pay himself.
At that time, the punishment for a soldier deserting was flogging. The dilemma was to treat him like every other soldier or take into account his slave history.
The penalty was hanging. A commanding officer could commute the execution and use flogging in it's place but the CO had to fill out a report to the Department of War justifying that decision.
Not only is Col Shaw saying to himself WTF when observing the soldiers he has a major case of PTSD from his time as a captain. You can see it in his eyes during the horseplay with rifles. He knows what these men are going to face and it was time for him to stop being a coward.
10:25 it's about chain of command, military uses its fire service uses it, it's to use chain of command so the commander and chief doesn't have to answer to 100 different men, just one captain or other officer. It's just chain of command is all , plus he wanted other soldiers nit think that he had some kind of special treatment to his friend.
By the summer of eighteen-sixty-one, Wilmer McLean had had enough. Two great armies were converging on his farm; and what would be the first major battle of the Civil War-Bull Run; or Manassas, as the Confederates called it-would soon rage across the aging Virginian's farm, a Union shell going so far as to explode in the summer kitchen. Now, McLean moved his family away from Manassas, far south and west of Richmond,-out of harm's way, he prayed,-to a dusty little crossroads called Appomattox Courthouse; and it was there, in his living-room, three and a half years later, that Lee surrendered to Grant. And Wilmer McLean could rightfully say "The Civil War began in my front yard and ended in my front parlor." *The Civil War was fought in ten thousand places, from Valverde, New Mexico, and Tullahoma, Tennessee, to Saint Albans, Vermont, and Fernandina, on the Florida coast.* *More than three million Americans fought in it; and over six hundred thousand men, two percent of the population, died in it.* *American homes became headquarters. American churches and schoolhouses sheltered the dying. And huge, foraging armies swept across American farms, and burned American towns.* *Americans slaughtered one another wholesale: here, in America; in their own cornfields and peach orchards; along familiar roads; and by waters with old, American names.* *In two days at Shiloh, on the banks of the Tennessee, more American men fell than in all previous American wars combined.* *At Cold Harbor, seven thousand men fell in twenty minutes.* Men who had never strayed twenty miles from their own front doors now found themselves soldiers in great armies, fighting epic battles hundreds of miles from home. They knew they were making history, and it was the greatest adventure of their lives. The war made some rich, ruined others, and changed forever the lives of all who lived through it: • a lackluster clerk from Galena, Illinois, a failure in everything except marriage and war, who, in three years, would be head of the Union army and, in seven, president of the United States • an eccentric student of theology and military tactics, a hypochondriac, who rode into battle with one hand raised "to keep", he said, "the blood balanced" • a college professor from Maine, who, on a little hill in Pennsylvania, ordered an unlikely textbook maneuver, that saved the Union army, and possibly the Union itself • two ordinary soldiers, one from Providence, Rhode Island, the other from Columbia, Tennessee, who each served four years and together seemed to have been everywhere during the war and lived to tell the tale • the courtly, unknowable aristocrat, who disapproved of secession and slavery, yet went on to defend them both at the head of one of the greatest armies of all time • the runaway boy who "stole himself" from slavery, recruited two regiments of black soldiers, and helped transform the Civil War into a struggle for the freedom of all Americans • and then there was the rough man from Illinois, who would rise to be the greatest president the country has ever seen. *Between eighteen-sixty-one and eighteen-sixty-five, Americans made war on each other, and killed each other in great numbers, if only to become the kind of country that could no longer conceive how that was possible.* What began as a bitter dispute over union and states' rights ended as a struggle over the meaning of freedom in America. At Gettysburg, in eighteen sixty-three, Abraham Lincoln said perhaps more than he knew: the war _was_ about "a new birth of freedom". ========== That's my transcript of the narration that starts The Civil War, a documentary television miniseries by Ken Burns. That nine-episode, eleven-and-a-half-hour monument was first broadcast In September of 1990, on PBS, in the United States. Parts of it are probably the most moving I've ever seen in any documentary about anything.
My ex was in basic training in the 60s and while it was illegal to beat the troops there was still some physical abuse and rampant verbal abuse. These days a drill can't even adjust a troop's uniform without asking his/her permission first and there are rules regarding what can and cannot be said to troops. But there's still no fraternization allowed between officers and enlisted men because it blurs lines and can have an adverse effect on the chain of command, which is hugely important. The chain of command is there to maintain efficiency, simplify delegation of tasks, create accountability and clarity, and standardize communications. So Thomas would even today have to ask permission to speak to Col. Shaw.
If Shaw were to treat Thomas as a friend it could be construed by the other men of the 54th as preferential treatment and ultimately undermine the chain of command. The chain of command is essential on the battlefield and having it compromised could be the deciding factor between victory or defeat. If the men have no confidence in the chain of command they could fold and retreat in the face of an enemy charge even though the officers are trying to hold the line. Also, the man being flogged was actually a light sentence for desertion. Desertion during the Civil War was most often dealt with very quickly by firing squad. Yes, flogging seems inhumane by today's society considering the man's history and race but in reality Shaw was being merciful by not ordering him executed on the spot. The man had to be punished or others may begin to think they can come and go as they please. When they torch the town such things were happening. Read about Sherman's march to the sea. Union general William Tecumseh Sherman took his troops and pillaged and plundered his way across the South from Tennessee to the Georgia coast leaving a trail of death and destruction that cut the Confederacy on half.
Flogging was the standard form of punishment for everyone of any color, military or civilian, free or enslaved. That's why the slavers used it. Theres no "other way" to punish an ex slave that he hadn't already been through.
On this subject, guys, please do a reaction on AMISTAD, one of the most underrated Spielberg movies about slavery in America and the men that opposed it.
I know it is older but just some to help to explain a bit of why Shaw did the things he did. He was the commanding officer of these men and it was his JOB to get those men ready for the battlefield. And as such that means being harsh when it was required no matter who those men were. And your saying many times it did not have to be that way...yes, yes it did have to be that way. And hopefully below will explain why it had to. The flogging scene. No Shaw had no choice. Tripp deserted, it did not matter why he did it, just that he did it. In most cases the punishment at the time for desertion was death by hanging or firing squad in front of the rest of the men or to be flogged in front of the men. Tripp got the most lienient of those options. There were no other options...any he would have gotten would have been pretty harsh. As for the not talking to his friend etc. Shaw is his commanding officer and there is a thing called chain of command. Meaning the lowly privates must go to their Seargent who then goes to his Capt or Leuitenant who then goes to his Major or Colonel and up the chain. And during the flogging scene when Shaws second in command started to question his that is a major no no. You do not question your commanding officer like that especially in front of the men. As for the treatement of the men during training. Those men are now soldiers and as such need to be trained to BE and ACT like soldiers. That means doing what you saw to break them of their old habits and any sense of being an individual and turning all of them from a unit of individuals and into a cohesive unit that moves and acts as one together and not as individuals. Also to get them ready for the realities of the battlefield. Shaw buring the village was not him doing it cause he just had to follow the orders, he did it to protect his men under his command from getting put under the command of the officer who ordered the town to be burned.
The flogging scene only seems cruel because its a white man striking a black man who was a former slave. But flogging was a standard military punishment that had been going on for centuries. So tons of white men also were flogged. He could have been executed for deserting but the commander chose a lesser punishment. Black folks were treated like second class citizens by some people in the north. It is understandable since the majority of the blacks were uneducated and some were former slaves who had never had to pay for their living expenses before. So a lot of them were still in a learning phase adapting to a new life. It must have been extremely difficult for these men to go through all of this. Blacks fought in the Confederate Army as well so they were present on both sides.
Fyi, this movie is pretty accurate. Also, idk how much you know about the civil war but during that time desertion was a crime, punishable by death. Therefore, the whipping, though brutal and hard to watch, was the better alternative. As far as Captain Shaw knew the soldier WAS deserting. He was not made aware of why he broke camp until after the punishment had been dealt. Still doesn't make it any easier to watch but it was either the flogging or a firing squad.
Nobody can say that Col. Shaw was a racist person. His mistake in the flogging decision was that he didn't get the facts about the guy actually not trying to leave, just looking for shoes. His choice may not be liked, but wouldn't it have been racist to treat those men differently than a white soldier? I think it was done with the mindset that he needs to treat them no different than any other soldier.
He's saying that Thomas has to get permission to speak with him ( The Commanding officer ) just as any other enlisted man would have to do, No Favouritism. Or special treatment because they know eachother personally..
It has been said that one the black sergeants of the 54th received five bullet wounds in the attack on Fort Wagner, but managed to limp, then crawl all the way back to the Union lines - while carrying the US flag, never once letting it touch the ground. It also could have been the regiment's colors, I forgot. Anyway, excellent viewing and review, ladies. This is one of my all-time favorite movies. I'll keep an eye open for more!
My sisters and I watched this movie NON STOP when we were young. So many tears. What a wonderful, terrible film. I visited the 54th's Monument in Boston and I could not stop myself from beaming with pride. What great men they were. Let no one forget their sacrifice.
The military in 1861 (when the civil war started) was different than it is today. If you were a man from a wealthy family, and you could pay for the uniforms and weapons for your men, you could recruit your own troops and be part of the regular army. The man with the money became the commander, and it did not matter if he knew anything about soldering or not. The military still operated this way in 1898 when the United States fought the Spanish navy and army in Cuba. Theodore Roosevelt raised his own troops to fight in Cuba, and was their commander, even though he was not a professional soldier.
The sergeant major's comment about letting Thomas grow up some more could also have applied to Shaw himself. He was very young and was new to leading enlisted men and was still learning and feeling his way.
Strong movie, this one! One of my favorites growing up. Shaw seems to struggle with two things in his character arc. First, he's relatively new to leadership, and is trying to work out how to make a sharp group. He thinks that maybe for the sharpest group, he must be the hardest leader, and operate by the book. Every time he thinks perhaps things are too harsh, it's under the wrong example with his sheltered childhood friend, and not the others. Which leads to the second thing he struggles with: His ignorance to the plight of being black in such an era, and not only that, but to be a slave. Sure, he has a heart that knows to disagree with slavery, enough so to feel he must fight, and lead others to fight against it. And that he does, with gusto. But he is still a well taught, privileged fellow who can hardly imagine the experiences his battalion of men have had to go through just to be there with him. It led him to make an uninformed choice to proceed with flogging a deserting enlisted man, as was customary for the time in military. He thought he was just making the fair bye-the-book choice. A soldier deserted the company. He realized too late what parallels it must have for this man, who braves death or a life of subjugation to be here, to have yet another white master whipping him for stepping out of line. As his character grows, he learns not only to inform himself properly (asking his sergeant to tell him personally about the men from time to time), but also how to lead in a way that is not hard, but inspiring. To gain respect by showing that he as a leader is not their master, that he is fighting alongside them, and for them. He fights his own officers for shoes, for the right to operate morally, for equal pay, and to have his men join in combat as they have been training so hard for. And that is what ultimately bonds him so well with his men by the end. A really excellent movie, and another great reaction from you two.
When I was a little girl in the early seventies I used to watch the kids show called Electric Company with a young Morgan Freeman. He wore red and purple and had a big Afro. He helped me learn to read ☮️
I want to know what Denzel drew upon to act in the flogging scene. Without any words he expresses so much pain and rage in his eyes. Chilling. One of his best roles.
When I think of the life sacrifice these brave men made for this country and the black Americans I wonder if some of us really appreciate their courage bravery and patriotism. They died so we could live as Americans Let’s show pride as Americans and be brilliant, respectful, and mindful Let’s do better because we are. Facts 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾👍🏾❤️
There is nothing better than seeing intelligent youth, reacting and understanding situations better than older people. New and better people for the world.
In any case, whether Hagood or anyone else intended the burial in a common trench as a desecration, Shaw’s family took it as a point of pride. His father rebuffed attempts to have the body found and exhumed. “We can imagine no holier place than that in which he lies,” he wrote, “among his brave and devoted followers, nor wish for him better company-what a body-guard he has!”
My 3rd greatgrandfather fought at Antitem and lost a leg in the civil war. He was a Sgt. from NY 64th Infantry. and of an abolishinist family. He almost died during the day of September 17th during heavy fighting against southern forces.
The punishment for desertion was firing squad. Even though it was a harsh punishment, it was a lesser punishment of the two. If one man steps out of line and not punished before the other soldiers for being disorderly, the rest could fall out of line.
Governor John Andrew soon created the Massachusetts 54th Volunteer Infantry. He chose Robert Gould Shaw, the son of wealthy abolitionists, to serve as its colonel. Notable abolitionists including Frederick Douglass and local leaders such as Lewis Hayden recruited men for the 54th Regiment. You guys need to watch "Band of Brothers" created by Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks, who also served as executive producers, and who had collaborated on the 1998 World War II film Saving Private Ryan.
This is an amazing movie and great reaction. This is probably one of the more historically accurate movies ever made, but there were some things that are inaccurate. Probably the biggest inaccuracy was the scene that this movie is probably most remembered for. No soldier under Shaw's command was ever flogged or whipped. Whipping or flogging of US soldiers as a punishment was banned in 1861. The 54th was formed in late 1862 and didn't see action until 1863. Had Shaw ordered the whipping of any of his soldiers he at the very least would've been dishonorably discharged from the army.
The flogging scene is hard to watch, but I also think it's the reason Denzel won so many awards for his role in this film. Allow me to add some context to the scene. Back then there were only three punishments. The most minor punishment would be running extra laps or pulling late watch. When Denzel states that Thomas "should have ducked", Shaw orders the drill sergaent to deal with him, and in the background you can see him begin to run laps. Now if a soldier were to do something that could possibly harm the morale or integrity of the company, i.e. desertion, inciting mutiny, smuggling contraband, they need to be made an example of in front of everybody. The choices are being flogged with a whip, or being executed via firing squad (as Freeman's character states "You're liable to get shot if you do that.") Major Forbes expresses feelings any person with even a shred of humanity would in this situation "Not with a whip, not on them!". Even the drill sergeant, who has been shown to be a (respectable) hardass, looks back at the Colonel after seeing the scars, as if asking if they are really going through with it. Now to understand Shaw's decisions, you need to remove any and all personal feelings on the situation and look at it with cold, hard logic - Shaw believes in equality for everybody. This means each and every person, in his eyes, should have the same exact rights as everybody else, which in turn means that those same individuals need to suffer the same punishments that anybody else would for a crime. His men aren't just freemen and former slaves, they are expected to be soldiers too, which means that they are held to an even higher standard than the civilian population. If Shaw had not administered punishment to Trip, he would have been treating him differently from others based solely on the color of his skin, and to be fair, he could have had him shot on the spot, which most other white commanders of black units would do without a second thought. In our current times, the whip has become a symbol so powerful that even mention or sight of it is enough to invoke strong emotions, but I believe in this scene, the act of whipping... It was equality.
As an army veteran myself, we are not in the profession of tickles and rainbows. We do what most fear to, where only the hard get through, as it should be. As there are no time outs nor safe spaces for us. Love the work ladies, keep it up and cheers 😊🤙🤙
I loved this movie. I hope you know its a true event. The 54th Massachusetts is famous. They even had a Medal of Honor recipient, SGT William Carney; He was not depicted in this movie. The violence seen in this movie was a cake walk compared to what happened in the 4 years of the Civil War in many locations. This movie always brings the tears. Matthew Broderick (COL Shaw) just recently found out he had a relative that fought in the Civil War. Please do at least one of the next two movies about the Civil War: Gettysburg (1993) and/or Gods & Generals (2003). Another unit you can read about is the black unit who fought in the Battle of Nashville in 1864. You will be proud. Joining the military was a love/hate situation. I am a combat veteran and got out of the military in 2013....and I actually miss it. I miss the community and it was just a different type of family.
Robert wanted his horse to live, because he knew he was going to die with his men. Also on horseback... Robert would be a perfect target and anyone near him. This was a very smart tactical move. Robert was suffering from heavy PTS (post traumatic stress.... we no longer say syndrome) after the Battle of Antietam in the beginning that the Union "won". Back then Brigadier Generals, Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels and Majors are led from the front. Not the rear as in modern day... especially for general staff.
Ladies, I love watching your reactions to movies. And you pick such great movies. I don't know if I'm the only one that complained about this, but I can hardly hear the movie compared to you guys talking. If I have the volume up enough to hear the movie, then you two comment and it's louder than thunder. And visa vera. If I turn it down enough where it doesn't sound like your screaming so I can hear your reaction, I can barely hear the movie at all Maybe it's me. Maybe it's my device. Just thought I'd share in case others have commented the same. Otherwise, I guess I'll just have to put up with it.
The letters Robert handed off at the beginning of the last battle are the letters home that were being read throughout the movie. You will notice how chipper and naive he was but after internally traumatized from what he saw. He couldn’t imagine his men being torn apart but that illusion was ripped away violently. He lead the way he did because he was preparing the men to face what he had seen. He was preparing them for war. His big problem was that he had never experienced slavery or lead black men before. The flogging happened because it was what was done when white men were disciplined in that era. Not having been exposed to slavery Robert hadn’t expected to see that. It was an eye opener for him. He had never lead troops who nobody wanted to take seriously. It took time for him to realize he couldn’t succeed by leading them like regular white troops. He would have to fight harder. He did what he did because he valued those men’s lives and sacrifices to just be there. It was as much a learning experience for him as it was for his men. But in the end color didn’t matter. What mattered was their bond, the men to their left and their right. And their training. Remember the man who fell apart after shooting so well? Later his life was saved when a Confederate trooper was charging him and he managed to load just in time to shoot.
Flogging was. Called for by Uß Army regulation for desertion Flogging was used in the USN.. The Colonel was acting çorrectly. A deserter oould be hanged.
I watched this back in 1991, served in the Army, and of ALL the war movies I've seen this in my personal favorite, fun fact... Matthew Broderick is an actual descendant of Col. Robert Shaw.
Flogging was the prescribed punishment for being AWOL (it technically wasn't desertion because it wasn't "in the face of the enemy" and he had returned to the unit voluntarily), regardless of the colour of the enlisted soldier. The fact that Colonel Shaw was shocked when Private Trip's tunic was removed just shows how far removed his Boston life was from the life of the slave negro. And of course the message was intentional. [And most regimental officers of the time wouldn't had stayed to actually observe the punishment. Shaw did. He took moral responsibility for issuing the punishment.] The training may seem very brutal but that was the nature of fighting at the time. The inaccuracy of their muskets meant that troops had to advance en masse and use mass fire and shock to try and break the enemy units. So you stood shoulder-to-shoulder with your fellow soldiers to the end. But it was also the start of modern warfare, with field artillery and repeating weapons starting to make an appearance. The casualty figures were considered unbelievable and inflated by European generals.
In the actual battle, a private named William H Carney saw the flag-bearer shot and mortally wounded. He caught the flag before the colors hit the ground and held it at the base of the sand fort, just like Tripp did. And he was shot multiple times, just like Tripp was. Unlike Tripp, however, Private Carney survived, albeit barely. Too badly wounded and losing blood, he made his way back slowly to the regimental camp, refusing help from white Union soldiers along the way. When he finally reached the 54th encampment, he said “the old flag, never touch the ground,“ and then collapsed. He survived the battle, was promoted to sergeant and survived the war. In 1900, 36 years later, he became the first Black American soldier to receive the Medal of Honor, the highest American award for military valor. Only 88 Black Americans have ever received it.
thanks for sharing this man. this was cool to read. love this sorta stuff.
Carney wasn't mortally wounded, he lived until 1908. There is a monument to him in Norfolk, Virginia, the city where he was born into slavery before escaping north to Massachusetts.
That would have been nice for the producers to add in the end credits at least. They missed more than one opportunity to honor the accolades these men received.
so he snubbed the union troops who lost 350k fighting to end slavery. this unit was a drop in a bucket full of white northern young men who righted a terrible wrong. Carney can kiss my ass.
The sergeant major has a point. "Let him grow up some more". Thomas lived a shielded and protected life. He grew up in it. And the only way for the Sergeant major to keep him alive once the fighting starts, is to rip him out of the illusion of safety and shielded living, and prepare him for the harshness and brutality of war.
Yes, that was a fine line to walk his fellow soldiers probably called Thomas a Brown Nose/book worm. And Robert had to not show favoritism.
@@Roadghost1969 the scenes, first with the crying Thomas that wishes to speak to Robert, because he needs the comforting words of a friend, only to be rejected because it is not protocol, and the later scene with them wishing each other a genuine merry christmas. It shows the growth of Thomas, and the understanding that Robert did what he had to do. He didn't do it to spite Thomas, but to protect him.
I like how proud he looked watching march off to war. He knew they were ready.
True. You see that "growing up" pay off in the end, when Thomas uses the bayonet countermove during the fight at Ft. Wagner, that he was exposed to during boot camp (right before he sadly is stabbed in the back)
Exactly... he had the blood of John Brown in him and he was a heart felt abolitionist. Poetic license and his reputation is sullied by this characterization.@@henrikvridstoft2774
The other soldiers can't see Thomas being friendly with the commanding officer, because it will seem that he is getting special treatment and that can foment discord among the troops. The soldiers all need to be on equal footing and they need to feel like they are all in it together. Feeling resentment toward this or that soldier because it appears they are "in the boys club" will put others in danger during battle. Shaw is doing the right thing by treating Thomas as a proper soldier.
It's hard accepting military culture over civilian culture.
In the end, everything is meant to keep morale up and everyone alive.
Exactly. When their training sarge made the comment about Thomas growing up he was also talking to Shaw who was clearly feeling uneasy himself. Shaw not showing favoritism and allowing Thomas to become a soldier the right way as every other man there was a respectful act of tough love for them both to mature.
In the military it's called the chain of command. No enlisted person can just approached his commanding officer without going through the proper channels. The colonel, I forget his name, was trying not to show favoritism to Thomas and had to do his part to instill the military discipline they would all need going forward. It's not a question of his humanity..
It would also be a case of 'jumping the chain of command' since the Private answers to probably 2 possibly 3 officers before you get to the Commanding Officer of the Regiment, the Colonel (who happens to be a childhood friend).
@@davidcorriveau8615
You are correct and not just coming 2-3 he’s jumping practically all of it.
If he wished to make a complaint to their commanding officer he’d need to first meet with his company sergeant.
The sergeant would either deem the issue reasonable to be brought up further in the chain or quash it there - I.e. if someone was to say have a minor injury or feel ill, do you think it reasonable to get the officers involved vs just the sergeant going “go to the medical staff and have it checked out”.
If the situation is deemed severe enough or that it cannot be dealt with by a sergeant - say a man was having issues of pay, and that he was not receiving it or that he had found acts of misdoing amongst other men of the regiment - he would be sent to meet the company lieutenant and/or captain (note if it’s something more minor the lieutenant would be the one to deal with it, if quite severe the captain would be forced to deal with it) however those two would only be expected to deal with said situation if it pertained to their company not someone else’s.
- the only exception of going higher than these two for a private would be in a situation where it is the lieutenant and captain being accused of crime. At which point the man would likely get to speak with the regiments major or senior sergeant.
Note after he has dealt with these senior people, the private would not actually then go onto speak with the actual major, lieutenant-colonel or colonel. Instead it would be his captain who’d be expected to take this information up the line if it was most severe for these higher up to deal with.
And it would be the lieutenant-colonel or colonel who’d be expected to relay information onto their brigade commanders who’d then pass it up to division and army if most severe.
However, stuff would usually never get this far.
The only time such a private would be allowed to speak with the colonel would be in invitation of passing on information he may have - I.e. if he is witness to a crime or situation or he has something to report given to him by other senior personnel.
The only other exception would be if the colonel choose to speak with the private at his own choice however such would be discouraged incase of showing favouritism - I.e. if Shaw was to speak with Thomas normally and was treated with a bit more lenience compared to his fellow soldiers this may breed a resentment for the man or amongst some an idea to use said man to persuade the colonel of officer to do as they wish.
To be fair, Robert probably should have explained that to Thomas before training started, since Thomas would have had no way of knowing that. His friends were both officers and had a general battlefield camaraderie; it very well might not have occurred to him that an enlisted man would be in a different position.
@@babs3241 This is probably true too..
Might be true. Though I‘d guess it is among the first things taught to new soldiers and assumed it to have happened off-camera
"Give 'em hell 54th!" gets me every time. Denzel, Andre and Morgan are so great in this movie.
The confederate army tried to shame Robert Shaw's family by saying we buried him with "coloured people", His father replied with “We would not have his body removed from where it lies surrounded by his brave and devoted soldiers...We can imagine no holier place than that in which he lies, among his brave and devoted followers, nor wish for him better company - what a body-guard he has!”
When you said that Shaw seemed both excited and scared at the responsibility of leading a new regiment on his own, I agreed. Also, he was only 23 years old at the time.
One of my top 5 films of all time. Unlike films like Braveheart and The Patriot this is how you make an historically accurate movie. Makes me cry everytime I watch it.
Burying Shaw, a white officer, with black troops was meant to be an insult to him. Later when it was offered to move Shaw's body to a officers cemetery his father said to leave him in honor with his men.
Thanks for that info. Since the Fort was never taken, it must have been the people on the Fort that buried him. I had missed the point. I am from India and not very conversant with the Us historical details. Regards,
In actuality, Confederate soldiers just wouldn't have Wasted Time separating whites from blacks. They were simply disposing of dead bodies, but people like to Pretend there was more to it, because Americans like to Pretend they are more than they truly are...😂😂😂
Nope
@@priyamd4759the dead were tossed into a trench and buried in one of the last scenes.
@@kylespeirs6510yup
The other option to the flogging was being shot.
The commander was trying to train them to a competent level so when they got to fight they had a better chance of success.
The 54th was well trained despite having problems like getting supplies from the quartermaster.
They preformed well in battle due to the good training they received.
Glory has a special place in my heart. It’s so incredibly moving. There are lots of people who I don’t think grasp how awful, bloody, and horrific the civil war was.
And, there are even more people who don't realize that the Civil War
is still being fought.
It never ended.
When you guys couldn't understand why he told his friend that he needs to go through the proper channels to speak to his commanding officer, it's because he cannot show favoritism. That was the way in which all soldiers had to speak with their commanding officer. Just because the guy was his childhood friend doesn't mean he gets special privileges or treated differently. It would have been hard for Robert to do that, but he was right in doing that
Denzel got flogged in front of everyone because that was the punishment for deserting. Most likely that was the punishment for anyone who deserted, regardless of race.
He was also breaking the chain of command. You don't skip your first line leader.
Telling an officer not to fraternize with an enlisted man is correct. No matter the color of either of them. It's still the rule in the military. For instance, officers' quarters are completely separate (when possible) from enlisted living quarters. You hope that officers and enlisted personnel are basically friendly to each other at work, but there is still a level of being "reserved" around one another. Lots of movies show officers and enlisted being close friends, but at the end of the day, everyone has to understand that there is still a social separation to be observed. Combat does tend to blur the lines, though, as you've seen.
Agree- similarly, you generally don't jump the hierarchy of communication- you talk to your immediate boss or superior- you don't approach the commander/general
The division between officers and enlisted is stupid.
@@kellymoses8566the boundary between enlisted and officers still exists and is needed. A big reason that it is needed is that those in a leadership position must be fair and impartial. If there is no separation then the leaders friends are rewarded and not those most responsible. Just like the leader could show leniency their friends and be harsh to those they dislike.
@@russellcollins52 Then why do the officers deserve better food and housing?
@@kellymoses8566 same food, bit back then most officers paid for their own food. Better pay equals more money for food. And the housing isn't that much better between enlisted and officer's. In some cases the housing is worse on base.
The reason Tripp was flogged was he had been caught Deserting. They had no idea why he ran away, only that he had. Desertion in wartime is usually punishable by death. A lot of soldiers in the Civil War that did and were caught were executed by firing squad. So flogging was actually a lenient punishment. However, given that Tripp had formerly been a slave wasn't the best way to handle it either. If Colonel Shaw had wanted to be lenient but not flog Tripp he could have ordered a buck & gag or similar punishment.
“They’re liable to shoot you.” Morgan Freeman even warned them.
@@Quey-rc1ym Flogging was still allowable in this era
@@Quey-rc1ym In the United States Army yes. In state militias it varied. Most Civil War era units were Federalized Militia
@@Quey-rc1ym wrong
@@karlmoles6530The way I heard it was that the US army(Union) outlawed flogging in the first few months of the war. Since the 54th Massachusetts wasn’t formed until the Emancipation Proclamation a year and a half later, a black soldier would not have been flogged. Actually, for desertion he would have more likely been hanged.
Battery Wagner (site now underwater) was never taken. However, the 54th was the ONLY regiment to gain access to the east wing of the of the battery and held it for over an hour before being repulsed. Shaw was an early casualty as portrayed in the movie and was buried along with his men. There is a beautiful monument in Boston (seen at the end) that commemorated the 54th.
Technically that's correct, it was never taken by force, though it continued to be under siege for a while, until the Confederates simply couldn't stay anymore, probably from a lack of provisions. Then, they just kind of slipped away, quietly. That's what I read and heard anyway. One Confederate soldier supposedly spoke of Fort Wagner being 'the closest thing to Hell' he could imagine.
@@marioneno I imagine is was.
He didn't invent flogging, it was a prescribed punishment. Firing squad was his other option. He wasn't seeking personal validation, he was tasked with proving that black soldiers were viable soldiers. He was actually very liberal and forgiving for the era. Life was harsh.
Actually flogging had been banned
Exactly. Flogging had been a standard punishment in every army since the Roman legions. It was applied to both white and black soldiers in the Civil War. Desertion (leaving post without permission) could have been dealt with by firing squad, so Tripp got off "easy." In a strange way, if Robert had forgiven Tripp and not done anything, it would have been an insult to Tripp- meaning that he had not earned the right to be treated as a "real" soldier. I thought Morgan freeman was just as deserving of an Oscar as Denzel Washington- two of the best performances in any war movie ever. More young people should be watching films like this instead of "The Avengers" and other ridiculous fluff. Kudos to these two young ladies for bringing this to the attention of their audience..
We know for the punishment of desertion in the Union army you could be hung shot or flogged it really depends on if you got a court marshal trial during the Fredericksburg campaign following the emancipation proclamation few hundred union soldiers deserted Lincoln spent days pardoning and exonerated these men that were condemned to death by hanging and or firing squad
Flogging banned by this time. They had many other options-buck and gaggign for instance.@@currinwoodruffwoodruff1555
yeah, the point Shaw is making by his behavior is that these men are treated just as white men are treated. Black or white, these men are soldiers of the US Army. The don't get better, nor worse treatment than their white brothers.
You both are right that the Colonel and the Drill Sergeant were very tough....and the whipping scene was the first time I was so bothered in a movie when I saw this at 12. But to prepare them for what was to come...a world were all compassion, remorse, humility and happiness would not exist on the battlefield. They had to make it hard...if not harder since they were the first black regiment. They didn't want to give any impression whatsoever that they were holding back with the toughness of the training. So as hard as it is to watch...seeing them perform in combat the way they did with honor and valor and courage only magnifies the type of training they received despite the hurdles, intolerance and pitfalls. The last minutes before the final battle still make my eyes flood with tears. A very powerful movie. You guys did a great job with your reaction.
My high school history teacher was in this movie. He had taken part in Civil War reenactments and the filmmakers recruited them to be extras in the battle scenes. Glory is one of my favorite movies of all time. It had tremendous impact on me back then. I'll never forget the collective gasp in the theater when they raised the Confederate flag. The realization hit us that the battle was lost.
I felt the same way the first time I watched it. It was like, all that...for what?
I guess the idea, re the flogging, is that in the military, rules are rules. If you bend any active rule (even a cruel or extreme one) for one soldier, you essentially weaken the rule of law and the chain of command.
The voiceovers read by Matthew Broderick throughout the movie are from letters written home by the real Colonel Shaw. Always thought that was cool so you know how Shaw felt.
The flogging scene is my favorite Denzel scene from all his movies. I'm sure it contributed greatly to him getting his Oscar for Best Supporting Actor. When the credits roll at the end they are displayed over a beautiful monument showing Shaw leading the troops. 11x14 feet in size, it was erected across the street from the Massachusetts State House here in Boston in 1884. Thanks for watching and reviewing this great film!
Flagging was a military wide form of punishment and is even still in use during “Starship Troopers”.
"He's finally showing the courage that we wanted to see."
HED BEEN SHOWING IT THE ENTIRE GODAMNED TIME.
This is one of my all time favorite movies. Every member of the cast brings their A-game to the screen but Denzel, in particular, shines and received an Academy Award for his performance.
The movie started with Shaw cowering in the prone position. In the end he felt the same fear but cleaned his pistol and pressed on. Determined to match his soldier's sacrifice. He knew this was the end.
When the standard bearer fell with his final breath he let out a bloodcurdling scream to urge his men forward.
And Tripp finally meeting a white man he learned to not utterly despise, thinks: "This is the last white man thats going to die for me. Time to ante up and kick in goddamnit."
Counting the amount of times I cry in this movie is impossible.
10.30 You have to remember this is 1800s and Enlisted and Officer ranks did not fraternize. Also, these troops had no training at all and the colonel had to turn them into an effective unit for the times.
I saw this at the theater when it first came out and remember most how quiet it was as everyone waited until the last credit rolled. I think it still holds up very well, doesn't look dated in any way. Enjoyed your reactions as always.
I watched this movie when I was 10 and it was the first time I wanted to cry at the end of a movie
I didn't know you could kill the "good guys" in a movie, great video and reaction!
When he told Thomas that he had to go through proper channels to talk to him, he was doing it so as not to play favoritism. There's a way to do things in the military - and if he breaks the rules for the people who are his friends, he has to break them for everybody. Going by the book is harsh when you're in the military.
They flogged Denzel because he deserted. He ran away. The punishment for running away was flogging. A harsh punishment, but those were the rules. The Colonel was carrying out the rules of the military. If he hadn't flogged Denzel, he would have been neglecting his duty. People don't have to like it or agree with it, but they should understand why without judging him too harshly. In a military situation equal treatment sometimes means equally harsh.
The training was the same for all soldiers in those days but Robert was tough on them because he wants them to be the best and he succeeded
9:51 "Enlisted men wishing to speak to their Commanding Officer must first get permission."
"Wow."
"He grew _up_ with this guy."
Yes, but now they're both members of the same military _unit_ and this is the _reality._ Shaw is an _officer._ Searles is undergoing training to join the _enlisted_ ranks. Officers have to keep professional _distance_ for the sake of unit _morale._ He dares not give special treatment to _Searles_ that he can't give to the _rest_ of the unit. That wouldn't be fair to _them._
An underrated movie
It’s understated. I haven’t noticed anyone whose seen it not appreciating the hell out of it.
I just finished watching Glory (1989) after seeing Saving Private Ryan (1998) and Schindler's List (1993). Three masterpiece films of cinema. I saw Glory many times in the early-90s. Still an amazing movie after 34 years. With Oppenheimer out, I'm in a binge watch for war films even if many of them are heavy to rewatch.
Glory's music is soaring! Thank you to the late-James Horner and the Boys Choir of Harlem. Now that's a very moving war movie about sacrifice and about two races coming together as one. I still have tears in my eyes because how much emotion I felt watching it so many years later.
Listen to Glory's "Charging Fort Wagner" and the closing credits. It's the same unbelievable feeling after you see the ending to The Shawshank Redemption and Top Gun: Maverick. The music absolutely soars!! Glory is the only film I ever liked Matthew Broderick in. I always found him too soft in other films.
Glory has one of the best end credit songs next to the mediocre-rated Far and Away (1992) which had Enya's "Book of Days" at the end. Now that Enya song feels epic after you watch Far and Away. John Williams worked for that film and it's amazing like pretty much any of his work.
Glory is a film to never forget. It's a film I first saw maybe when I was 11 or 12 on cable circa 1991-1992 and made me want to write a history report on the Civil War in the 6th grade (1992-1993). Still remains one of the greatest films I've ever seen. I'm not African-American but I want those who are to always be proud of the events chronicled by this great film.
This is one of top 5 greatest movies of all time.
Our citizenship is what unites us all
7:49 "He's good."
He's a good _aim._ That's an essential _part,_ but _only_ a part of being a good soldier.
Thank you, ladies for sharing your reaction and thoughts with us on this movie. If you’re interested in US Civil War history, another excellent film is Lincoln (2012).
The thing that struck me about Robert was that he was so young. He was 26 when he was killed. I think a lot of his shortcomings early in the movie represent how he was learning to exercise independent command and to govern himself. Going from Captain to Colonel, a three step promotion, is a huge jump in responsibility and he was a very new Captain when he was promoted. When I think back to when I was 26, I would have frozen up too in many of the situations he was placed in. That the 54th did as well as they did in the forlorn hope at the fort and later in the war speaks volumes about the men’s courage and determination and Shaw’s leadership.
Yes! Lincoln (2012)! also on the top 5 best movies of all time!
Spoiler alert the other 3 nobody's heard of.
Dirty dozen , Last of the Dogmen and Tears of the sun
As a former Marine, I can assure you that, with the exception of the flogging, military training is much the same today as depicted in the film. Rules against fraternizing between soldiers and officers are essential to unit cohesion. An officer may be required to send soldiers into harm's way, and therefore cannot have friendship cloud their decision to do so. The harsh treatment of soldiers in training is designed to discourage individuality in favor of unquestioning obedience and teamwork. This is what turns a group of strangers into an army, instead of just a bunch of guys running around shooting guns. Great reaction to one of the best films about the Civil War ever made. 👌
They flogged Trip because that was the standard punishment in the military for deserters at the time. Actually if I remember right deserters were usually punished with death so technically they went easy on him.
The sergeant that trained them, and who you said was unfair. Was one of the main reasons the regiment was so successful.
I agree. Tough but fair.
Agree- soldiers (black and white) needed to be trained hard and disciplined if they were to follow orders successfully during a battle, win the battle, and survive. Comment by karlmoles6530 is correct; Tripp was deemed to have deserted from the army, and he was lucky that he was not executed. Either way, he left camp and was "absent without leave" (AWOL) which deserved punishment, which was harsh back then. In the Revolutionary War and earlier, soldiers could be flogged with 100 lashes (although they were not all done at once).
They're just so naive.
its an "under the radar" movie. Won 3 oscars and though its not entirelly historical, the government (years after) had a request to to retrieve Shaw and his family said " no, he's honored to be buried along his men". not only wasn't he not aa racist like most were back then, he was a "beacon", died at 27-28, supposedly charging "Battery Wagner" . There are men whose deeds are just impossible to explain, this is one of them.....and im not even American ;)
I saw this in the theater and the flogging was by far the most upsetting scene in the film for audiences, judging by the complete silence except for the sniffing and crying going on. The public flogging was standard procedure, however, and it was necessary -- to show the other men the penalty for deserting and discourage other deserters. Regardless of race. The colonel was actually treating the soldiers with respect for their safety, by insisting on proper training, treating everyone the same (how he instructed Thomas to act like any other soldier with him) and concern for their safety in battle. And as we saw, the flogging, given the context, was upsetting to the colonel too, and was the impetus for him getting the soldiers their just uniforms, shoes, pay, and respect from other officers outside the unit, going forward.
You have to understand the flogging part as punishment in the army at the time was not given out on racial grounds, floggings was standard practice regardless of race, white soldiers suffered this form of punishment also if they committed a crime. The problem with flogging black soldiers is that floggings was also the form of punishment handed out to black slaves for doing the wrong thing. Robert HAD to administer the flogging punishment even though it is typically used against black slaves. It was standard military punishment.
7:10 I noticed that you both had a weird face about how he was treating the men, it's not because he was being mean, he was only trying to instill accuracy, more training for whet thy would see on the battlefield. Seal training in the US is the same way but more. And if yall watched Lone Survivor you would more understand. The training officer was trying to makes them more aware of what war was. He knew the were all tough
He also saw that the commanders friend needed a little bit of growing left, he was making him tougher.
Nevermiind on yall watching Lone survivor. I watched you both react to it. Anyway you have to be really hard on someone, because you may need that later in boot camp or Hell week for military training, it's not only the body you have to train, it's the brain. A person has to be trained to reach deep within yourself the Will to survive. Th only way to do that is to break someone and have them see it for themselves. Everyone has a will to survive, but you must know how to use it when and if that time comes. War sucks, Seal training was easy, but real war sucks.
Other than Robert Gould Shaw, the other characters in his regiment are fictional. William Carney won the Medal of Honor for saving the regimental flag during the assault at Battery Wagner (South Carolina).
He's not just finally showing the colors that you're wanting to see now.... He's been showing those colors the entire time. He treated them like soldiers regardless of skin color. He treated them the same way of white soldier would have been treated at that time. No special treatment, no over corrections, everything by the book. And when the military did them wrong by paying them less just because of their skin color, he again said that he was coming his troops by not taking pay himself.
At that time, the punishment for a soldier deserting was flogging. The dilemma was to treat him like every other soldier or take into account his slave history.
The penalty was hanging. A commanding officer could commute the execution and use flogging in it's place but the CO had to fill out a report to the Department of War justifying that decision.
Not only is Col Shaw saying to himself WTF when observing the soldiers he has a major case of PTSD from his time as a captain. You can see it in his eyes during the horseplay with rifles. He knows what these men are going to face and it was time for him to stop being a coward.
10:25 it's about chain of command, military uses its fire service uses it, it's to use chain of command so the commander and chief doesn't have to answer to 100 different men, just one captain or other officer. It's just chain of command is all , plus he wanted other soldiers nit think that he had some kind of special treatment to his friend.
The fact you two reacted to this (or posted it) today of all days, much respect earned. Gonna find your Patreon soon.
By the summer of eighteen-sixty-one, Wilmer McLean had had enough. Two great armies were converging on his farm; and what would be the first major battle of the Civil War-Bull Run; or Manassas, as the Confederates called it-would soon rage across the aging Virginian's farm, a Union shell going so far as to explode in the summer kitchen. Now, McLean moved his family away from Manassas, far south and west of Richmond,-out of harm's way, he prayed,-to a dusty little crossroads called Appomattox Courthouse; and it was there, in his living-room, three and a half years later, that Lee surrendered to Grant. And Wilmer McLean could rightfully say "The Civil War began in my front yard and ended in my front parlor."
*The Civil War was fought in ten thousand places, from Valverde, New Mexico, and Tullahoma, Tennessee, to Saint Albans, Vermont, and Fernandina, on the Florida coast.*
*More than three million Americans fought in it; and over six hundred thousand men, two percent of the population, died in it.*
*American homes became headquarters. American churches and schoolhouses sheltered the dying. And huge, foraging armies swept across American farms, and burned American towns.*
*Americans slaughtered one another wholesale: here, in America; in their own cornfields and peach orchards; along familiar roads; and by waters with old, American names.*
*In two days at Shiloh, on the banks of the Tennessee, more American men fell than in all previous American wars combined.*
*At Cold Harbor, seven thousand men fell in twenty minutes.*
Men who had never strayed twenty miles from their own front doors now found themselves soldiers in great armies, fighting epic battles hundreds of miles from home. They knew they were making history, and it was the greatest adventure of their lives.
The war made some rich, ruined others, and changed forever the lives of all who lived through it:
• a lackluster clerk from Galena, Illinois, a failure in everything except marriage and war, who, in three years, would be head of the Union army and, in seven, president of the United States
• an eccentric student of theology and military tactics, a hypochondriac, who rode into battle with one hand raised "to keep", he said, "the blood balanced"
• a college professor from Maine, who, on a little hill in Pennsylvania, ordered an unlikely textbook maneuver, that saved the Union army, and possibly the Union itself
• two ordinary soldiers, one from Providence, Rhode Island, the other from Columbia, Tennessee, who each served four years and together seemed to have been everywhere during the war and lived to tell the tale
• the courtly, unknowable aristocrat, who disapproved of secession and slavery, yet went on to defend them both at the head of one of the greatest armies of all time
• the runaway boy who "stole himself" from slavery, recruited two regiments of black soldiers, and helped transform the Civil War into a struggle for the freedom of all Americans
• and then there was the rough man from Illinois, who would rise to be the greatest president the country has ever seen.
*Between eighteen-sixty-one and eighteen-sixty-five, Americans made war on each other, and killed each other in great numbers, if only to become the kind of country that could no longer conceive how that was possible.*
What began as a bitter dispute over union and states' rights ended as a struggle over the meaning of freedom in America. At Gettysburg, in eighteen sixty-three, Abraham Lincoln said perhaps more than he knew: the war _was_ about "a new birth of freedom".
==========
That's my transcript of the narration that starts The Civil War, a documentary television miniseries by Ken Burns. That nine-episode, eleven-and-a-half-hour monument was first broadcast In September of 1990, on PBS, in the United States. Parts of it are probably the most moving I've ever seen in any documentary about anything.
My ex was in basic training in the 60s and while it was illegal to beat the troops there was still some physical abuse and rampant verbal abuse. These days a drill can't even adjust a troop's uniform without asking his/her permission first and there are rules regarding what can and cannot be said to troops. But there's still no fraternization allowed between officers and enlisted men because it blurs lines and can have an adverse effect on the chain of command, which is hugely important. The chain of command is there to maintain efficiency, simplify delegation of tasks, create accountability and clarity, and standardize communications. So Thomas would even today have to ask permission to speak to Col. Shaw.
If Shaw were to treat Thomas as a friend it could be construed by the other men of the 54th as preferential treatment and ultimately undermine the chain of command.
The chain of command is essential on the battlefield and having it compromised could be the deciding factor between victory or defeat.
If the men have no confidence in the chain of command they could fold and retreat in the face of an enemy charge even though the officers are trying to hold the line.
Also, the man being flogged was actually a light sentence for desertion.
Desertion during the Civil War was most often dealt with very quickly by firing squad.
Yes, flogging seems inhumane by today's society considering the man's history and race but in reality Shaw was being merciful by not ordering him executed on the spot.
The man had to be punished or others may begin to think they can come and go as they please.
When they torch the town such things were happening.
Read about Sherman's march to the sea.
Union general William Tecumseh Sherman took his troops and pillaged and plundered his way across the South from Tennessee to the Georgia coast leaving a trail of death and destruction that cut the Confederacy on half.
Flogging was the standard form of punishment for everyone of any color, military or civilian, free or enslaved. That's why the slavers used it.
Theres no "other way" to punish an ex slave that he hadn't already been through.
On this subject, guys, please do a reaction on AMISTAD, one of the most underrated Spielberg movies about slavery in America and the men that opposed it.
I know it is older but just some to help to explain a bit of why Shaw did the things he did. He was the commanding officer of these men and it was his JOB to get those men ready for the battlefield. And as such that means being harsh when it was required no matter who those men were. And your saying many times it did not have to be that way...yes, yes it did have to be that way. And hopefully below will explain why it had to.
The flogging scene. No Shaw had no choice. Tripp deserted, it did not matter why he did it, just that he did it. In most cases the punishment at the time for desertion was death by hanging or firing squad in front of the rest of the men or to be flogged in front of the men. Tripp got the most lienient of those options. There were no other options...any he would have gotten would have been pretty harsh.
As for the not talking to his friend etc. Shaw is his commanding officer and there is a thing called chain of command. Meaning the lowly privates must go to their Seargent who then goes to his Capt or Leuitenant who then goes to his Major or Colonel and up the chain. And during the flogging scene when Shaws second in command started to question his that is a major no no. You do not question your commanding officer like that especially in front of the men.
As for the treatement of the men during training. Those men are now soldiers and as such need to be trained to BE and ACT like soldiers. That means doing what you saw to break them of their old habits and any sense of being an individual and turning all of them from a unit of individuals and into a cohesive unit that moves and acts as one together and not as individuals. Also to get them ready for the realities of the battlefield.
Shaw buring the village was not him doing it cause he just had to follow the orders, he did it to protect his men under his command from getting put under the command of the officer who ordered the town to be burned.
The flogging scene only seems cruel because its a white man striking a black man who was a former slave. But flogging was a standard military punishment that had been going on for centuries. So tons of white men also were flogged. He could have been executed for deserting but the commander chose a lesser punishment. Black folks were treated like second class citizens by some people in the north. It is understandable since the majority of the blacks were uneducated and some were former slaves who had never had to pay for their living expenses before. So a lot of them were still in a learning phase adapting to a new life. It must have been extremely difficult for these men to go through all of this. Blacks fought in the Confederate Army as well so they were present on both sides.
Deserters were shot in those days the flogging was mercy it’s not easy to watch but it’s reality
Thought-provoking reaction. Great job. One of my favorite films.
Fyi, this movie is pretty accurate. Also, idk how much you know about the civil war but during that time desertion was a crime, punishable by death. Therefore, the whipping, though brutal and hard to watch, was the better alternative. As far as Captain Shaw knew the soldier WAS deserting. He was not made aware of why he broke camp until after the punishment had been dealt. Still doesn't make it any easier to watch but it was either the flogging or a firing squad.
Nobody can say that Col. Shaw was a racist person. His mistake in the flogging decision was that he didn't get the facts about the guy actually not trying to leave, just looking for shoes.
His choice may not be liked, but wouldn't it have been racist to treat those men differently than a white soldier? I think it was done with the mindset that he needs to treat them no different than any other soldier.
He's saying that Thomas has to get permission to speak with him ( The Commanding officer ) just as any other enlisted man would have to do, No Favouritism. Or special treatment because they know eachother personally..
33:12 Death... the great equalizer. I've always loved that shot. The symbolism, the slowlo, Horner's score...
It has been said that one the black sergeants of the 54th received five bullet wounds in the attack on Fort Wagner, but managed to limp, then crawl all the way back to the Union lines - while carrying the US flag, never once letting it touch the ground. It also could have been the regiment's colors, I forgot. Anyway, excellent viewing and review, ladies. This is one of my all-time favorite movies. I'll keep an eye open for more!
Yes, that was Willian Carney, who was promoted to sergeant and was ultimately given the highest American military award, the Medal of Honor.
There's a huge sculpture on wall of them in honor. In Boston.👍👍👍👍👍
My sisters and I watched this movie NON STOP when we were young. So many tears. What a wonderful, terrible film. I visited the 54th's Monument in Boston and I could not stop myself from beaming with pride. What great men they were. Let no one forget their sacrifice.
The military in 1861 (when the civil war started) was different than it is today. If you were a man from a wealthy family, and you could pay for the uniforms and weapons for your men, you could recruit your own troops and be part of the regular army. The man with the money became the commander, and it did not matter if he knew anything about soldering or not. The military still operated this way in 1898 when the United States fought the Spanish navy and army in Cuba. Theodore Roosevelt raised his own troops to fight in Cuba, and was their commander, even though he was not a professional soldier.
The sergeant major's comment about letting Thomas grow up some more could also have applied to Shaw himself. He was very young and was new to leading enlisted men and was still learning and feeling his way.
Great Movie and Reaction !!! Thank You Ladies
Strong movie, this one! One of my favorites growing up. Shaw seems to struggle with two things in his character arc.
First, he's relatively new to leadership, and is trying to work out how to make a sharp group. He thinks that maybe for the sharpest group, he must be the hardest leader, and operate by the book. Every time he thinks perhaps things are too harsh, it's under the wrong example with his sheltered childhood friend, and not the others. Which leads to the second thing he struggles with: His ignorance to the plight of being black in such an era, and not only that, but to be a slave.
Sure, he has a heart that knows to disagree with slavery, enough so to feel he must fight, and lead others to fight against it. And that he does, with gusto. But he is still a well taught, privileged fellow who can hardly imagine the experiences his battalion of men have had to go through just to be there with him. It led him to make an uninformed choice to proceed with flogging a deserting enlisted man, as was customary for the time in military. He thought he was just making the fair bye-the-book choice. A soldier deserted the company. He realized too late what parallels it must have for this man, who braves death or a life of subjugation to be here, to have yet another white master whipping him for stepping out of line.
As his character grows, he learns not only to inform himself properly (asking his sergeant to tell him personally about the men from time to time), but also how to lead in a way that is not hard, but inspiring. To gain respect by showing that he as a leader is not their master, that he is fighting alongside them, and for them. He fights his own officers for shoes, for the right to operate morally, for equal pay, and to have his men join in combat as they have been training so hard for. And that is what ultimately bonds him so well with his men by the end.
A really excellent movie, and another great reaction from you two.
It’s called a Chain of Command. Just like you would go to your supervisors before you go to the head of company with a complaint.
When I was a little girl in the early seventies I used to watch the kids show called Electric Company with a young Morgan Freeman. He wore red and purple and had a big Afro. He helped me learn to read ☮️
13:25 - Army regulations required flogging as a standard form of discipline, which is why Shaw went along with it.
In fact, for desertion the most common form of punishment was death by hanging.
I want to know what Denzel drew upon to act in the flogging scene. Without any words he expresses so much pain and rage in his eyes. Chilling. One of his best roles.
When I think of the life sacrifice these brave men made for this country and the black Americans I wonder if some of us really appreciate their courage bravery and patriotism. They died so we could live as Americans Let’s show pride as Americans and be brilliant, respectful, and mindful Let’s do better because we are. Facts 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾👍🏾❤️
Great reaction!
You two are adorable. 🤘🏼👍🏼
Keep up the good work.
There is nothing better than seeing intelligent youth, reacting and understanding situations better than older people. New and better people for the world.
In any case, whether Hagood or anyone else intended the burial in a common trench as a desecration, Shaw’s family took it as a point of pride. His father rebuffed attempts to have the body found and exhumed. “We can imagine no holier place than that in which he lies,” he wrote, “among his brave and devoted followers, nor wish for him better company-what a body-guard he has!”
My 3rd greatgrandfather fought at Antitem and lost a leg in the civil war. He was a Sgt. from NY 64th Infantry. and of an abolishinist family. He almost died during the day of September 17th during heavy fighting against southern forces.
Dying with dignity and honor is very important to a man. We all die, but dying for a cause makes dying meaningful.
I love the part where they all pray. And the guy singing at the begining... holy shit, what a voice!
The punishment for desertion was firing squad. Even though it was a harsh punishment, it was a lesser punishment of the two.
If one man steps out of line and not punished before the other soldiers for being disorderly, the rest could fall out of line.
29:08 - He's saving the horse because he apparently knows that he himself will be killed in the battle.
Governor John Andrew soon created the Massachusetts 54th Volunteer Infantry. He chose Robert Gould Shaw, the son of wealthy abolitionists, to serve as its colonel. Notable abolitionists including Frederick Douglass and local leaders such as Lewis Hayden recruited men for the 54th Regiment.
You guys need to watch "Band of Brothers" created by Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks, who also served as executive producers, and who had collaborated on the 1998 World War II film Saving Private Ryan.
This is an amazing movie and great reaction. This is probably one of the more historically accurate movies ever made, but there were some things that are inaccurate. Probably the biggest inaccuracy was the scene that this movie is probably most remembered for. No soldier under Shaw's command was ever flogged or whipped. Whipping or flogging of US soldiers as a punishment was banned in 1861. The 54th was formed in late 1862 and didn't see action until 1863. Had Shaw ordered the whipping of any of his soldiers he at the very least would've been dishonorably discharged from the army.
Thank you for your reactions to this film as proxy for broader topics. There is / I derive value in your discussion.
The flogging scene is hard to watch, but I also think it's the reason Denzel won so many awards for his role in this film. Allow me to add some context to the scene. Back then there were only three punishments. The most minor punishment would be running extra laps or pulling late watch. When Denzel states that Thomas "should have ducked", Shaw orders the drill sergaent to deal with him, and in the background you can see him begin to run laps. Now if a soldier were to do something that could possibly harm the morale or integrity of the company, i.e. desertion, inciting mutiny, smuggling contraband, they need to be made an example of in front of everybody. The choices are being flogged with a whip, or being executed via firing squad (as Freeman's character states "You're liable to get shot if you do that.")
Major Forbes expresses feelings any person with even a shred of humanity would in this situation "Not with a whip, not on them!". Even the drill sergeant, who has been shown to be a (respectable) hardass, looks back at the Colonel after seeing the scars, as if asking if they are really going through with it. Now to understand Shaw's decisions, you need to remove any and all personal feelings on the situation and look at it with cold, hard logic - Shaw believes in equality for everybody. This means each and every person, in his eyes, should have the same exact rights as everybody else, which in turn means that those same individuals need to suffer the same punishments that anybody else would for a crime. His men aren't just freemen and former slaves, they are expected to be soldiers too, which means that they are held to an even higher standard than the civilian population. If Shaw had not administered punishment to Trip, he would have been treating him differently from others based solely on the color of his skin, and to be fair, he could have had him shot on the spot, which most other white commanders of black units would do without a second thought.
In our current times, the whip has become a symbol so powerful that even mention or sight of it is enough to invoke strong emotions, but I believe in this scene, the act of whipping... It was equality.
As an army veteran myself, we are not in the profession of tickles and rainbows. We do what most fear to, where only the hard get through, as it should be. As there are no time outs nor safe spaces for us. Love the work ladies, keep it up and cheers 😊🤙🤙
In army,in all armies from this planet,if you whant to talk with a superior,you must ask. Is a general rulle.
You ladies need to turn up the volume of the actual movie so people can listen along with you watching the movie!
That drill sergeant shown early on was spot on. Exactly what raw recruits needed.
One of my very favorite films- I went to see this 5 times when it was originally released in theaters.
I loved this movie. I hope you know its a true event. The 54th Massachusetts is famous. They even had a Medal of Honor recipient, SGT William Carney; He was not depicted in this movie.
The violence seen in this movie was a cake walk compared to what happened in the 4 years of the Civil War in many locations. This movie always brings the tears.
Matthew Broderick (COL Shaw) just recently found out he had a relative that fought in the Civil War.
Please do at least one of the next two movies about the Civil War: Gettysburg (1993) and/or Gods & Generals (2003).
Another unit you can read about is the black unit who fought in the Battle of Nashville in 1864. You will be proud.
Joining the military was a love/hate situation. I am a combat veteran and got out of the military in 2013....and I actually miss it. I miss the community and it was just a different type of family.
Good movie about the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment. One of my favorite ACW movies with "Gettysburg" and "Gods & Generals".
Robert wanted his horse to live, because he knew he was going to die with his men. Also on horseback... Robert would be a perfect target and anyone near him. This was a very smart tactical move. Robert was suffering from heavy PTS (post traumatic stress.... we no longer say syndrome) after the Battle of Antietam in the beginning that the Union "won". Back then Brigadier Generals, Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels and Majors are led from the front. Not the rear as in modern day... especially for general staff.
Ladies, I love watching your reactions to movies.
And you pick such great movies.
I don't know if I'm the only one that complained about this, but I can hardly hear the movie compared to you guys talking.
If I have the volume up enough to hear the movie, then you two comment and it's louder than thunder.
And visa vera. If I turn it down enough where it doesn't sound like your screaming so I can hear your reaction, I can barely hear the movie at all
Maybe it's me. Maybe it's my device.
Just thought I'd share in case others have commented the same.
Otherwise, I guess I'll just have to put up with it.
The letters Robert handed off at the beginning of the last battle are the letters home that were being read throughout the movie. You will notice how chipper and naive he was but after internally traumatized from what he saw. He couldn’t imagine his men being torn apart but that illusion was ripped away violently. He lead the way he did because he was preparing the men to face what he had seen. He was preparing them for war. His big problem was that he had never experienced slavery or lead black men before. The flogging happened because it was what was done when white men were disciplined in that era. Not having been exposed to slavery Robert hadn’t expected to see that. It was an eye opener for him. He had never lead troops who nobody wanted to take seriously. It took time for him to realize he couldn’t succeed by leading them like regular white troops. He would have to fight harder. He did what he did because he valued those men’s lives and sacrifices to just be there. It was as much a learning experience for him as it was for his men. But in the end color didn’t matter. What mattered was their bond, the men to their left and their right. And their training. Remember the man who fell apart after shooting so well? Later his life was saved when a Confederate trooper was charging him and he managed to load just in time to shoot.
Flogging was. Called for by Uß Army regulation for desertion
Flogging was used in the USN..
The Colonel was acting çorrectly. A deserter oould be hanged.
I watched this back in 1991, served in the Army, and of ALL the war movies I've seen this in my personal favorite, fun fact... Matthew Broderick is an actual descendant of Col. Robert Shaw.
Oooooh shit guys! This movie is what got me into history
There's a Great Memorial in Boston to Robert Gould Shaw and the 54th Massachusetts aslo a identical one in the National Gallery of Art
Flogging was the prescribed punishment for being AWOL (it technically wasn't desertion because it wasn't "in the face of the enemy" and he had returned to the unit voluntarily), regardless of the colour of the enlisted soldier. The fact that Colonel Shaw was shocked when Private Trip's tunic was removed just shows how far removed his Boston life was from the life of the slave negro. And of course the message was intentional. [And most regimental officers of the time wouldn't had stayed to actually observe the punishment. Shaw did. He took moral responsibility for issuing the punishment.]
The training may seem very brutal but that was the nature of fighting at the time. The inaccuracy of their muskets meant that troops had to advance en masse and use mass fire and shock to try and break the enemy units. So you stood shoulder-to-shoulder with your fellow soldiers to the end. But it was also the start of modern warfare, with field artillery and repeating weapons starting to make an appearance. The casualty figures were considered unbelievable and inflated by European generals.