No wonder Elton John's piano accompaniment in the most played Bennie and the Jets recording (where someone whistles out loud in the audience) abounds with such brilliance. Steinway model D's are simply unparalleled. Comparatively, any Yamaha's attempt falls "way" short; almost reminiscent of a calliope....
Fascinating. I played a worn out hard-hammer upright for years. it was so bad that I "voiced" it with a dental pick and broke the tip! Three weeks ago, I bought a 2000 M&H BB. It needs tuning and voicing so an expert Nashville tech will soon visit to tame the monster. I will not attempt to "improve" the BB on my own!
I love Mason BBs. To me they are the quintessential American piano tone. Your tech will need to do some needling which is quite different than juicing. I am putting together a video about needing hammers so stay tuned. Though, you'll get a front seat when you have your BB voiced.
@@the_daily_ping I am fortunate to live in Nashville, TN where we have some outstanding technicians. The BB got a "well" tuning three days ago, then regulation and voicing in January. The non-ET temperament is certainly more "colorful".
I tried that acetone mixture, but all it ever did was to soften the sound. Maybe the key top was not good material. Idk. I ended up rashaping my hammers heads and that did the job
That's interesting. Perhaps the solution wasn't string enough. Straight Acetone will soften the felt. I'm glad that some filing got you to where you wanted to be.
I always start by re-facing worn hammers, and then attend to any voicing or doping thereafter - if and as needed. Starting with the correct hammer profile is far better than trying to alter the tone on worn hammers, other than when a customer wants to keep their costs way down.
Was the tone too soft when playing forte or fortissimo prior to doping the hammer felts? I always thought that japan or some other type of varnish was used for doping hammer felts. Certainly that's what the two supply shops offer piano tuners here in the UK.
Yes, they really did sound “poofy”. Steinway U.S.A. uses lacquer cut with lacquer thinner It puts off a lot of nasty fumes but is the best for deep juicing. For less intense juicing and for applying just drops on top I’ve recently moved from keytops and acetone to B-72 and alcohol. B-72 is really great and can be found in pellets online.
Great work! Congrats. I needled a strident Hammer too agresively, incluso g the strike point (i was a bit dare, I know). Now it is muddy… (my bad). Can I recover it by dropping B-72 diluted with acetone directly into the strike or should I juice only the shoulder instead?
Thanks for your compliment! You can put a drop or two on the strike point but it’s better to start on the end of the string grooves (away from the strike point towards the shoulders) rather than directly on top. Just put one drop on each end of the strings grooves and see if the sound comes around.
Hi, I recently bought a new Kawai Nd 21 Upright. I am just curious to know whether I need to get the voicing done or it is already been done when they are made in the factory. Please Guide
Hi. Thanks for your question. Most production line pianos are voiced during manufacturing and Kawai is not different. In fact, I’m my opinion Kawai goes further than most in making sure that their pianos have a good B amount of voicing fine before they ship them out. That being said, the final voicing on a piano is always done in the home. I would consult with your tech to see if any notes needs more voicing.
That’s a good question. Tuning is obviously about spacing the notes properly for our western sensibilities concerning harmony, but with instruments like pianos which have large arched soundboards and high tension strings there’s an additional aspect of tuning that can be achieved. I don’t know if it has a proper name but I call it “activating the soundboard”. There’s a technique of manipulating the wire during tuning so that it adds additional downward force on the bridge which causes the sound of the string to project upward from the soundboard as opposed to downward. You know you’ve done it properly because you can hear the placement of the note move upward and to the right. The timbre of the note changes for the better too. Whenever I do any voicing I tune the section or notes to make sure that they are activating the soundboard.
He doesn't know. The point is to seat the strings at the bridge throughout the instrument. Level the strings (mate them to the hammer at the strike point), and tune the unisons at the highest partials, setting the pin stable. Only then can you judge the tone. Regulating the mechanism is also part of the pre voicing. He's a hack.
Thanks for the question and thanks for watching. For voicing hammers “Up” I using either lacquer in lacquer thinner or B-52 in alcohol. For hard pressed hammers I have two voicing tools. A three needle tool with 6-7 mm length needles for deeper needling and a 7 needle tool with 2-3mm needles for more delicate needling. I’ll do a video on these soon.
Keytop material is Mae of acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (I had to look that one up). B-72 is a softer acrylic that can be thought of more like a finish than a plastic. I plan on switching to B-72 when I find some locally.
If you mean what is the juicing solution I’m using it’s 1 teaspoon of ground keytop to 7oz of acetone. It’s not a precise formula. I want it to have a thin milky consistency. I’m interested in using B-72 as well which is a preserving acrylic for painting restoration. It is supposed to be a softer acrylic than keytops.
So many questions but I'll ask two. If I retire in my late 50's and want to start a new career in this field do I have to apprentice? I play by the way. Also, are you voicing a Steinway fresh out of the factory or a used one?
It’s actually quite common for retirees to get into the piano tuning business. We have several here in the Miami chapter. I wouldn’t expect that you would need to apprentice but it is difficult to learn to tune and to do technical work without at least having a teacher if not a mentor. I would recommend the Randy Potter course to get started. As for the Steinway in this video, it is probably 10 or so years old however the hammers didn’t appear to have been thoroughly voiced before. They were quite soft sounding.
I only train and hire guys who are late 30s and above. The younger guys are often on various tracks and simply aren’t ready to take this seriously as a career yet. I say do it! We need more techs all the time. .
My only comment would be, if you are voicing this for ‘your ear’ or an existing client. If it’s for you, I wouldn’t do anything. I had the chance to speak to a very high ranking member of the Steinway Commercial sector, and we were talking about ‘dopeing’ the hammers when a piano arrived into the showroom, but this individual might think that it’s too loud/soft, they responded that a piano is such a personal choice, a bit like choosing a boyfriend/girlfriend! each piano is different as are people, and they very rarely changed the tone of a piano unless the client was present. If this is YOUR piano, fine, but otherwise I would always tend to back off revoiceing until either the hammers were part of a full rebuild or the owner was absolutely and utterly unhappy with the tone, which in my humble opinion means they’ve bought the wrong instrument!
That is always a valid position concerning voicing of any type. I have found though, that voicing American made Steinways with soft hammers requires a certain amount of juicing for the piano to be able to produce a quality tone. In this piano's case, the concert organizer requested more tone from the piano. The hammers were just too soft (not hard enough) even for a home instrument. Some pianists might like a super puffy sound but I feel that it was really lacking in color.
Was the client nearby to try out some of the post dopeing. What about if you found the hammers (as you correctly described) in the wrong position, would it have been possibly better to have checked the alignment of the hammers before giving yourself such a large amount of work? It’s still a very educational video that you have made, and very kindly uploaded it. :-)
Hi. Sure. For a light solution I am using about 1 teaspoon of ground keycap to 8oz of acetone. I'm switching to B-72 so I'll do a vide about making solution for that soon. Thanks.
Hello. I used your recipe. My old grand piano began to sound colourfully and brightly. I thank you for such interesting and informative videos. I have no B-72 and where to buy it don't know. Thanks!
This gentleman knows his business, listen to the piano, it is great. Job well done. I'm glad you are posting videos of quality concert work.
I need to perform this on an old Chickering grand at my church. Your channel is such a gem. Here's hoping you get picked up by the algorithm.
Thanks so much!!! Just remember to take it slow. You can always juice more but it’s impossible to undo.
No wonder Elton John's piano accompaniment in the most played Bennie and the Jets recording (where someone whistles out loud in the audience) abounds with such brilliance. Steinway model D's are simply unparalleled. Comparatively, any Yamaha's attempt falls "way" short; almost reminiscent of a calliope....
Fascinating. I played a worn out hard-hammer upright for years. it was so bad that I "voiced" it with a dental pick and broke the tip! Three weeks ago, I bought a 2000 M&H BB. It needs tuning and voicing so an expert Nashville tech will soon visit to tame the monster. I will not attempt to "improve" the BB on my own!
I love Mason BBs. To me they are the quintessential American piano tone. Your tech will need to do some needling which is quite different than juicing. I am putting together a video about needing hammers so stay tuned. Though, you'll get a front seat when you have your BB voiced.
@@the_daily_ping I am fortunate to live in Nashville, TN where we have some outstanding technicians. The BB got a "well" tuning three days ago, then regulation and voicing in January. The non-ET temperament is certainly more "colorful".
I tried that acetone mixture, but all it ever did was to soften the sound. Maybe the key top was not good material. Idk. I ended up rashaping my hammers heads and that did the job
That's interesting. Perhaps the solution wasn't string enough. Straight Acetone will soften the felt. I'm glad that some filing got you to where you wanted to be.
I always start by re-facing worn hammers, and then attend to any voicing or doping thereafter - if and as needed. Starting with the correct hammer profile is far better than trying to alter the tone on worn hammers, other than when a customer wants to keep their costs way down.
Was the tone too soft when playing forte or fortissimo prior to doping the hammer felts? I always thought that japan or some other type of varnish was used for doping hammer felts. Certainly that's what the two supply shops offer piano tuners here in the UK.
Yes, they really did sound “poofy”. Steinway U.S.A. uses lacquer cut with lacquer thinner It puts off a lot of nasty fumes but is the best for deep juicing. For less intense juicing and for applying just drops on top I’ve recently moved from keytops and acetone to B-72 and alcohol. B-72 is really great and can be found in pellets online.
@@the_daily_ping Thanks for the info.
Güzel çalışma. Tebrik ederim 👏
Great work! Congrats.
I needled a strident Hammer too agresively, incluso g the strike point (i was a bit dare, I know). Now it is muddy… (my bad).
Can I recover it by dropping B-72 diluted with acetone directly into the strike or should I juice only the shoulder instead?
Thanks for your compliment! You can put a drop or two on the strike point but it’s better to start on the end of the string grooves (away from the strike point towards the shoulders) rather than directly on top. Just put one drop on each end of the strings grooves and see if the sound comes around.
Great video! I enjoyed it immensely. What was the song you were playing at 16:23? I dont recognize it, and its amazingly pretty.
I’m glad you enjoyed the video. The song there was something I made up on the spot. I’m sure it comes from somewhere but I was just riffing.
Hi, I recently bought a new Kawai Nd 21 Upright. I am just curious to know whether I need to get the voicing done or it is already been done when they are made in the factory. Please Guide
Hi. Thanks for your question. Most production line pianos are voiced during manufacturing and Kawai is not different. In fact, I’m my opinion Kawai goes further than most in making sure that their pianos have a good B amount of voicing fine before they ship them out. That being said, the final voicing on a piano is always done in the home. I would consult with your tech to see if any notes needs more voicing.
What do you mean by the bass strings "speaking upward" after the tuning? Thanks!
That’s a good question. Tuning is obviously about spacing the notes properly for our western sensibilities concerning harmony, but with instruments like pianos which have large arched soundboards and high tension strings there’s an additional aspect of tuning that can be achieved. I don’t know if it has a proper name but I call it “activating the soundboard”. There’s a technique of manipulating the wire during tuning so that it adds additional downward force on the bridge which causes the sound of the string to project upward from the soundboard as opposed to downward. You know you’ve done it properly because you can hear the placement of the note move upward and to the right. The timbre of the note changes for the better too. Whenever I do any voicing I tune the section or notes to make sure that they are activating the soundboard.
He doesn't know. The point is to seat the strings at the bridge throughout the instrument. Level the strings (mate them to the hammer at the strike point), and tune the unisons at the highest partials, setting the pin stable. Only then can you judge the tone. Regulating the mechanism is also part of the pre voicing. He's a hack.
@@beethovensg I'm totally agreed with you! Unfortunately so many dangerous gyes (for piano).....
Other than Steinway what do you use for voicing ? Can you list in the video what you used ?
Thanks for the question and thanks for watching.
For voicing hammers “Up” I using either lacquer in lacquer thinner or B-52 in alcohol.
For hard pressed hammers I have two voicing tools. A three needle tool with 6-7 mm length needles for deeper needling and a 7 needle tool with 2-3mm needles for more delicate needling.
I’ll do a video on these soon.
Is the liquid just acetone?
Thank you!
Yes, Just straight acetone. It takes overnight to fully dissolve the ground keytop material so plan ahead for that.
@@the_daily_ping Is that similar to B 72 (paraloid)?
Keytop material is Mae of acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (I had to look that one up). B-72 is a softer acrylic that can be thought of more like a finish than a plastic. I plan on switching to B-72 when I find some locally.
what composition do you use thank you
If you mean what is the juicing solution I’m using it’s 1 teaspoon of ground keytop to 7oz of acetone. It’s not a precise formula. I want it to have a thin milky consistency. I’m interested in using B-72 as well which is a preserving acrylic for painting restoration. It is supposed to be a softer acrylic than keytops.
@@the_daily_pingThank you so much for your response. Your videos are amazing!
So many questions but I'll ask two. If I retire in my late 50's and want to start a new career in this field do I have to apprentice? I play by the way. Also, are you voicing a Steinway fresh out of the factory or a used one?
It’s actually quite common for retirees to get into the piano tuning business. We have several here in the Miami chapter. I wouldn’t expect that you would need to apprentice but it is difficult to learn to tune and to do technical work without at least having a teacher if not a mentor. I would recommend the Randy Potter course to get started. As for the Steinway in this video, it is probably 10 or so years old however the hammers didn’t appear to have been thoroughly voiced before. They were quite soft sounding.
I only train and hire guys who are late 30s and above. The younger guys are often on various tracks and simply aren’t ready to take this seriously as a career yet.
I say do it! We need more techs all the time.
.
My only comment would be, if you are voicing this for ‘your ear’ or an existing client.
If it’s for you, I wouldn’t do anything. I had the chance to speak to a very high ranking member of
the Steinway Commercial sector, and we were talking about ‘dopeing’ the hammers when
a piano arrived into the showroom, but this individual might think that it’s too loud/soft, they
responded that a piano is such a personal choice, a bit like choosing a boyfriend/girlfriend!
each piano is different as are people, and they very rarely changed the tone of a piano unless
the client was present.
If this is YOUR piano, fine, but otherwise I would always tend to back off revoiceing until either
the hammers were part of a full rebuild or the owner was absolutely and utterly unhappy with
the tone, which in my humble opinion means they’ve bought the wrong instrument!
That is always a valid position concerning voicing of any type. I have found though, that voicing American made Steinways with soft hammers requires a certain amount of juicing for the piano to be able to produce a quality tone. In this piano's case, the concert organizer requested more tone from the piano. The hammers were just too soft (not hard enough) even for a home instrument. Some pianists might like a super puffy sound but I feel that it was really lacking in color.
Was the client nearby to try out some of the post dopeing.
What about if you found the hammers (as you correctly described) in the wrong position,
would it have been possibly better to have checked the alignment of the hammers before
giving yourself such a large amount of work?
It’s still a very educational video that you have made, and very kindly uploaded it. :-)
你好，这个榔头硬化剂是什么比例制作的呢？谢谢了
I use about 1 teaspoon of ground key top material dissolved into 7oz of Acetone.
Google Translate:
我使用大约1茶匙地面关键顶部材料溶解在7盎司的丙酮中。
Voodo voicing.
Hello.
Can you please write an accurate recipe? Composition, dosage.
Thank you.
Hi. Sure. For a light solution I am using about 1 teaspoon of ground keycap to 8oz of acetone. I'm switching to B-72 so I'll do a vide about making solution for that soon. Thanks.
Hello.
I used your recipe. My old grand piano began to sound colourfully and brightly.
I thank you for such interesting and informative videos.
I have no B-72 and where to buy it don't know.
Thanks!
Salam
Cekiclere ne vurursan deye bilersen
Sounds odd. Could be my ipad
Ruined hammers with pointless technique and poor unisons , and a ridiculous deduction hack job.