Your analysis of loose pins, tight friction and the variable variables is brilliantly described. On many instruments I find variable variables even in the same instrument and I put a washer on looser pins so that in moving from one pin to another the felt washer warns me to apply a more gentle tension. With many of the instruments I tune the 90 degrees position works really well for me. One can pull sharp and then as the pin bends forward the string settles down into pitch and it's where it wants to be. On the subject of damage by pins bending it's minimised by having a short tuning tip as you have here. Many levers have tips which are much too long, or are at an absurd upwards angle and these must put the wrong leverage on the wrestplank and would seem more liable to cause damage. Thanks for this video. Many people are too prescriptive in technique and different methods have different applications in different circumstances. One method cannot be universal. I had an instrument which wasn't greatly coorperative so tried the 12 o'clock method ua-cam.com/video/1ivRR9sYZ0A/v-deo.html and didn't get on with it.
@unequally-tempered Hi! Thank you for the compliment! 😊 You are so right about there being no single method for all situations. While there are some general "truths," there are so many subtleties to our craft that everyone must indeed find their own way in all the grey areas. I learned a lot about lever technique from Dan Levitan. I think he would agree with you. His main thing is that it's impossible to not flex the pin at all, so you may as well use it to your advantage. And yes, we don't need to get carried away which is very easy to do. No wonder you don't care for the 12 o'clock method! That was terribly awkward! You need to move your tuning devices to the other side and sit at a 90⁰ angle to the piano to put you as square to the lever as possible. I found this video of me tuning a bit which shows you how I do it. The lever is either at 12, or as close to 12 as the pin fitting will allow without going past. I face toward the hinged side of the piano. I'm dealing with a temporary injury in this video, so please disregard the braces. If you ever feel like trying again, do try this way & let me know if it's any better for you. ua-cam.com/video/UL3CqMc4K1g/v-deo.htmlsi=vz0uDCPgOf8cbzmC
Oh yes! Of course I wouldn’t use the ETD in that position interfering with the 12 o’clock position like that normally but doing a video single handed so that the viewer can see the ETD display as well as what one is doing isn’t always easy and especially when one is on a job rather than doing an exemplary instruction video. Nevertheless I was able to feel there that the 12 position wasn’t the solution on that instrument!
@unequally-tempered Oohh! I see. I also now understand you were talking about that specific instrument. Sorry for the misunderstanding! You did say that. 🙄🤦♀️🙃
Your video highlights the more difficult aspect of tuning pianos: correct use of the lever. So many people think owning a tuning app makes them a piano tuner, without realising that the hearing aspect of tuning is actually the 'easy' part. Loved the video.
Glad you're talking about this, because I think sometimes certain lever techniques tend to get cargo culted when in reality it's all so very situational. Some thoughts on why flexing might affect the pinblock less than we might think: 1. If you have tuning pin bushings they're gonna take the brunt of it anyway 2. One time for grins I installed some leftover pins in a cutoff piece of pinblock, brought it to a chapter meeting, and let people flex them with a tuning lever to get a feel for how much force it took to actually bend them permanently. It takes a lot, far more than you'd ever reasonably use when tuning. Also, the pin will consistently deform right at the becket hole because that's the weakest point. So it may be that the tuning pin steel actually yields before you manage to crush the pinblock wood.
Thanks for all those thoughts. The thought about the beckett hole never occurred to me. I was going to put a pin in a vice & see how much it flexed, but I attempted it right when the vice was about to break...so...oops. 🤣 I have a new vice so will try again. 😉 My thinking on the wood: It's hard for me to imagine the bottom of the pin doesn't put pressure on the wood in the opposite direction of the flex, but it SEEMS to me that mild pin flexing doesn't cause excessive damage. I wish I could know for certain, but I just can't. 🤷♀️
Thank you for the video! I thought stability came from equalizing tension in the speaking length and non-speaking lengths. I would think that having higher tension on the NSL would lead to the pitch going sharp as the tension equalized, i.e after hard blows and/or humidity changes, NSL lowers in tension and SL increases as string overcomes friction on agraffe or capo. Thank you in advance for any additional explanation!
Hi! Think of it this way: When the string is in motion, particularly on a loud note, the string tension on the speaking length is greater than when it is at rest. Therefore, if you equalize the tension between the SL & the NSL at rest, it can more easily pull flat when played loud. If the tension is equal between the SL & NSL when the string is played loudly, it won't go flat and will result in the NSL having slightly more tension at rest. This last scenario gives the most stability. However, you can accidentally get the NSL to have more tension than the SL on a hard blow, which will cause it to go sharp as you describe when that hard blow happens. Make sense?
ahh - the in-block pin twist. Could write an article on just that! Most of the stability rests on what is happening in the pin hole. took me many a tune to handle this. Stabilizing the treble on Swys that are in good shape is the most challenging. I found a solution finally after many attempts and analyzing what is going on. Pitching is only the beginning!!
I find that on many longer non speaking length, I can come up from flat and leave it without having to go sharp. And as I was writing this, I heard you explain that it is possible. The longer the speaking length, the less effect flexing has at the friction point.
The best way to explain to someone about pin movement in a plank (pin block USA ), get hold of your first index finger, hold it tight then turn your wrist; the top of your finger will turn, and the bottom of your finger will stay, that explains pin twist, Bending the pin back and forward in the UK we call that telegraphing and that's very useful if you've got a lot of drag " friction" on the bearing point the pen is set, but you need to nudge it a touch. Also, in the UK, most tuners have the lever on grand 9-6 for right-handed tuners; left-handed tuners tend to have 11 to 5; for a upright Pianos is generally 12-6 left-handed tuners maybe 11-5. Tuning Grands righthanded with the lever at 12-6 seems very uncomfortable to me as you have to lean right over the piano. At the end of the day, it's what works best for you and the piano. If the end result is Good, it's not important. Barrie
Lots of good points there! I use the finger in the hand method as well. Glad I'm not alone! 😁 That's really interesting about the tuning lever position! I agree the US method is more awkward. We tend to sit at a 45⁰ angle to the piano which can make it quite comfortable. The thinking about having it closer to 12:00 is that you can use a shorter tuning tip which will make the pin flex less. I have a levitan-C lever which I can hold in front of me. It is more comfortable but if I need to move a mute, I have to reach into the piano anyway. Moving mutes is faster if my hand is already there. Interesting stuff! 😊
It’s interesting that most of the pianos you encounter have looser pins with string drag. It’s exactly the opposite here in Miami. I see mostly newer pianos but in general every piano I tune has tight pins where you wouldn’t be able to turn the pin with just your fingers on the hammer. It really does require a completely different technique, especially for strings with low friction.
Yeah! No kidding! Definitely not my normal here. Thanks for sharing that point because it's important for people to know that different pianos require different hammer technique!
Nice video. Great to see and hear how passionate you are about tuning, Maggie. 🙂 Some things to add that may make it simpler. Instead of friction, think of non-speaking length. (NSL) The longer the NSL, the less sensitive the NSL tension will be to hammer movement. This is eerily similar to high friction. Long NSL behaves the same as high friction. Notice you are on the shortest NSL. Hooke's Law states the tension will be more sensitive, just like a low-friction situation. All pianos have similar materials and angles, hence friction, but not similar NSL lengths, hence, we should expect them to behave differently, and they do. Also, Dan Levitan invented his C-Lever which indeed does allow you to eliminate bending (he calls it tilting) but he also uses the hammer to bend the pin on purpose.
Yes, I'm aware of Dan's discoveries. It's great information. What you said all makes sense, except I have experienced pianos with unusually high friction for whatever reason. Those are not fun to tune. On those, the length of the NSL doesn't matter. The friction is high. I suppose it does matter because there will still be a difference, but the short NSL acts like the long one, and the long one acts doubly long. 😂 Have you seen my video of me trying to tune one of those? OMG...lol
@@PianoTechMaggie they are easy to tune. Pull up to pitch and leave it. Long NSL or high friction. Doesn’t matter. They behave the same. During tuning NSL is tight. After tuning untwist and unbend lowers NSL tension but not a lot. NSL tension stays high. Even if the pin isn’t set. Over time if the pin sets NSL tension still doesn’t lower much. I used to think of friction but it doesn’t make sense. For me NSL length comes first. Then if long acts short I know this is low friction. If short acts long it’s high friction. Doesn’t matter how we think of it as long as we’re aware. It solves so many problems.
I think I understand what you are saying. I'm talking about a different situation where the friction is so high that when you pull it up, the pitch doesn't change until it suddenly jumps, often with a "ping", far above pitch. The inverse happens when lowering. I have a video somewhere of the worst one I have ever encountered, but I'd have to find it. I have a moderate one on UA-cam. Let me find that link. If I find the really bad one, I'll post it. It took me 3 hours to tune that thing. Crazy. Here is the modetate one. Some of this piano would work with what you say, but not all, I think. ua-cam.com/video/rVXm1wz5PeU/v-deo.html In this video, you can hear it come into tune as I'm pulling up, but if I leave it there, it doesn't hold. It drops flat rather quickly. If I ever find the other video, I'll let you know. On that piano, I had to tune each note flat of pitch and bang the key. It would then pop UP to pitch and hold. Everything else I tried failed. It was nuts.
@@PianoTechMaggie That is a different issue. That is a jumpy agraffe. If the agraffe isn't jumpy, as you turn the pin the NSL tension will increase slowly until the agraffe friction is exceeded and the string will start sliding slowly through the agraffe and the pitch will start slowly rising. If the pitch jumps all of a sudden (you may hear a click) you will need to lubricate the agraffe. (BTW, I know you know this stuff. I'm just being more clear for your readers. 🙂)
I listened to the beginning of your other video. That is definitely a jumpy agraffe. You said, "Since the problem was with the agraffe, lubrication had no effect." That doesn't make sense. Jumpy agraffes are exactly the place where lubrication can work. However, ProTec doesn't work. Try ProLong synthetic lubricant. Much better. Here is what I tell my students to try with jumpy agraffes (or jumpy pins). It works because as you turn the pin, the jump often happens only once and then if you keep turning the pin, the pin/string moves smoothly through the agraffe/pin block. This is what I suggest: Use Slow Pull Up Go flat a bit. (or go sharp for slow pull down. It can also work with slow pull down but it is more rare) Turn the pin until the jump happens Concentrate on keeping a steady speed on the pin/string. Drop the pitch when you reach the target Notes: If you don't move the pin/string fast enough, it may start jumping again. (That's why I often call this technique "fast pull" 🙂) If you miss the target after letting go, start over. Do not try to finesse the pin/string. It will just jump again and you'll be circling the pitch forever. The pitch will be where you want it. If the unbending/untwisting leaves the NSL tight enough but not too tight, the string will also be stable.
I tuned my piano a few months ago and some of the unisons have shifted somewhat. Due to still using heating in my part of the world, the piano is a bit out of tune overall. Need to do it again now as we don’t t use heating now
It's fairly normal for many pianos to go out of tune when heating turns on & off. Ideally, you want unisons to stay when the piano goes out of tune, but they can shift.
Thanks for this video. I wonder if you can tell me which type of those four options is usual on a YAMAHA U3H (1976 vintage, refurbished in 2016), as it is my piano and I want to tune it. Thanks for any hint!
Unfortunately, two identical pianos can even be different, but I can tell you that the older a piano, the more likely you are to experience looser pins and higher friction. That's far from 100%, though. You just have to tune it and find out.
@@PianoTechMaggieThanks for answering my question!. Yes, I know it should vary from unit to unit, but perhaps knowing that the piano has a construction or another, as a model (for example, the U3H does not use agraffes), tends to be one or the other way. So far, what I have found is that pins are tight, so I guess we are talking of tight pins, high friction. Some time ago I would think that friction should be reduced by oiling... But it seems I was wrong. Luckily I had not done anything on it yet, but solving some unison problems. I proceed with the outmost caution! Another thing which I may ask, if you allow me, is about the non-speaking part of the strings, on the lower side of the piano. I am hearing some vibrations that could be related to them not being correctly silenced. Is like a vibration which happens after a while after pressing a key, and seems to be out of tune. It sounds bad and is mostly heard around middle C, so it is an area which is used almost always and drives me nuts. I know for sure is internal to the piano. I am planning to add some felt strips on these areas, but wonder if that happens in this kind of pianos. Thanks!
@@JoseVGavila I'm afraid I don't know enough about specific pianos, except to say that the same thing in that two identical pianos can have different problems. I can, however, assure you that friction issues can happen without agraffes (if that's what you were implying). Friction can happen on the felt the strings rest on. It can happen on the capo bar. It can happen at any bearing point at all, including agraffes, but definitely not limited to them. "Oiling" can sometimes help, BUT, do not use regular oil!!! Regular oil will "creep" and can destroy the tone of your strings. Please only use a "counter bearing lube" such as Protek or John Page's CBL. They are thin enough to not cause trouble and don't "creep" like other lubricants. I have had success with them, but only around 50% of the time. I know others who swear by them, but I've not been as lucky. I would definitely try the felt strips in the NSL, and check the NSL on the hitch pin side as well. Sounds can come from both places. Sounds can, unfortunately, also come from other places. Sometimes they come from the strings themselves. There have been a few pianos where I never did find the source of the sound, and neither did some other techs. It makes us all crazy. I can tell you that new Pearl Rivers do this more than most, but the sounds go away after they are a few years old. As far as your pins, if they are tight, that's good. How are you knowing if you have high friction? If you turn the pin a small bit and the pitch doesn't change, that is a good way to know.
@@PianoTechMaggieThanks a lot for your detailed information!. I have read quite a bit and watched lots of videos on these topics, but I am really just an engineer and amateur musician trying to figure out the misteries of piano tuning 😅So this first-hand information is worth gold for me!. Thanks a lot, I will report back what I find
A universal way to keep the friction between the pin and the pinblock hole. You have chosen a very correct position from 15 o'clock to 18 o'clock (for grand piano). This is the optimal position to save the resource wood part of the piano's hole (bush + pin block hole). The pin is almost impossible to bend because it is made of a very hard metal alloy. At the moment when you try to "bend" it, the pin remains unchanged, its deformation does not occur. When you bend the pin, there is excessive pressure on the wood wall of the hole there. And it's operation is denting of the pin into wood. The ideal position for great tuning is closer to 18 down. It looks ridiculous (the handle rests on the belly in time of a tuning), but it's painless for the hole and bush. Best regards, Max
I believe it's impossible to not lean the pin into the wood from any position since there is always lateral pressure as explained and demonstrated by Dan Levitan, but yes, I agree that keeping it to a minimum is important. I'm still unsure how much extra is safe, if any. I made this video for you, just to show the pin can flex a tiny bit, but perhaps not enough to matter. 🤷♀️ ua-cam.com/users/shortsdGjEP_O62n0?feature=share
I agree that bending the pin is more accurately producing compressing of the pin block wood, but just turning the pin does incredibly more harm to the pin block than just bending it. Think about it. Pin is in hole. String is pulling 150lbs Pin is "smashed" into bottom of hole, just sitting there, and then you come along and turn it. What happens at bottom of hole? SSSSSSCCCCCCRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEECCCCCCHHHHHHHH! Very damaging. Of course we have no choice. There is no way to turn the pin without grinding out the bottom of the hole. Yes, it is damaging but thankfully pin block material is very resilient. That's why it is used. But you say no bendy the pin. I say of course bendy the pin. Bendy the pin all you want because the damage is much smaller compared to just turning the pin. Dan Levitan says "Tilty the pin, young man(woman)" Think of what happens when you bend the pin. (Bend is an engineering term. Let's use it. It means to apply a bending force that produces elastic deformation) Pin is smashed against bottom of hole due to 150 lbs of tension from string. You bend the pin towards the string. Pin block feels the extra force but says to the pin, "Oh you are pretty boy. You nice to me. I feel soft pressure which makes pinnyblock feel sweet and happy. Not like brutal bad boy who scratches me with his scratchy, scratchy, screech, screech. You good boy. Thank you."
"You believes that turning the tuning pin without any bending force can cause significant damage to the pinblock. The rotational motion of the tuning pin produces a screeching sound that can damage the hole wall. You suggests that tilting or bending the pin can mitigate such damage, citing Dan Levitan's method of "Tilty the pin, young man(woman)." On the other hand, I'm approach advocates for handling the tuning pins radially in the pin block and bushing with external force applied by the hammer. Me argues that any lateral oscillations of the tuning pin could potentially harm the wooden parts of the grand piano, including the pinblock and bushing there. To reduce such risk and alleviate the string pressure on the hole wall while rotating the tuning pin, me recommends using the 15-18 method there(only). Dan Levitan created grand piano's wrench to never anybody work in other sector except as 15-18 there. Although both me and you hold different views and approaches, we agree that proper tuning requires a great deal of experience and expertise. The choice of method ultimately depends on the tuner's discretion and familiarity with each method's strengths and limitations, I'm think. regards, Max"
@@TheMaximillyan it’s not theory. You have seen pins with space above between pin and block that are tight. This pre occupation with destroying the pin block is unfounded in my opinion. I didn’t say bending mitigates the effect. I said bending does less damage. Dan’s lever may be at 6:00 but he lifts it and presses down on it - he agrees with me. Tuning the way you do - trying not the bend - doesn’t hurt the piano but neither does bending if done moderately.
I don't know - *bending* the *pin* ? They are relatively short, stout and HARD STEEL. What I think actually happens is the hole in the pin block actually flexes within the wood (kind of microscopically, almost) and allows the pin therefore to move as if it's being bent. Maybe that's what you actually mean.
@catkeys6911 Yeah. There is a lot of debate about this, and I go around and around about it. Regardless of what happens, "bend the pin" is common vocabulary with it. I've played around with bending the pin in a vice, and it does bend a little, but I don't believe we aren't compromising the wood. As you pointed out, they are hardened steel. So, yes-ish. That's what I mostly mean.
That's kind of what I figured - it's just common terminology and I was being very picky. But trust me - if you move the pin laterally in the pin block, you're actually moving wood grain. If the pin got bent, it wood wobble a little (the center of its end would travel in a tiny circle) when you turned it- and they never do, right? As you may know, the pin block is a laminate - like a VERY high quality, VERY dense plywood, so the grains in it go every which way, which thwarts the hole from elongating as you "bend" the pin. Steel is much stronger than wood. @@PianoTechMaggie
@catkeys6911 Bend is definitely the wrong word. More people are using the word, "flex" these days. I think that is more general in its meaning and can mean both the pin and wood. I've actually seen a bent pin. Not pretty. I can't imagine how hard someone had to push on it to make that happen. 😳 There was an experiment by a PTG chapter that involved a lazer on a celing. It's amazing how much lateral movement happens in the pin no matter how hard you try to keep it stable. So, if it moves anyway, why not use it to your advantage? 😉
@catkeys6911 Bend is definitely the wrong word. More people are using the word, "flex" these days. I think that is more general in its meaning and can mean both the pin and wood. I've actually seen a bent pin. Not pretty. I can't imagine how hard someone had to push on it to make that happen. 😳 There was an experiment by a PTG chapter that involved a lazer on a celing. It's amazing how much lateral movement happens in the pin no matter how hard you try to keep it stable. So, if it moves anyway, why not use it to your advantage? 😉
I know this is an older video but I knew I wasn’t crazy when I tune certain pianos with poor rendering by flagpoling the pin forward as I turn it clockwise. The only thing is I have to make sure I don’t flagpole too much or the note ends up sharper than where I left it and can be unstable. But then again, if consistent enough, unstable notes can fall out of tune in tune…ahhhh!
@@PianoTechMaggie Sorry what I meant by the last sentence is that there have been times where despite the note ending up sharper due to over bending, the pitch would fall into place upon pounding the key and the unisons would still be clean because the strings slipped uniformly due to being consistent with the tuning lever technique. Was just trying to make a play on words but probably ended up sounding crazy anyway. Oh well thanks for the informative videos.
Okay so you aim for more tension at the non-speaking length, than on the speaking length ? I thought stability was to spread the exact same tension everywhere, which is a nightmare when string has a very high friction points (sorry Im not english). My approach is to leave an un-twisted pin behind me, so I over turn the tuning pins the right amount to counter that... I feel you have a different technique
Your English is pretty good! For me, it's a specific concept. For example, if you equalize tensions on the SL & NSL, it will be perfectly stable unless you have a hard/loud blow. When a string is set into motion with force, the tension on the SL naturally increases. If the tension on the NSL isn't high enough, the pitch will go flat. If you have a perfect situation with just the right friction, both scenarios may work. If the friction isn't ideal, then one scenario will work better than the other. Which situation requires which setting can be found with test blows. Do whatever works. I have a suspicion that most stable tunings have more tension on the NSL without the tuner realizing they are doing it. Either that, or I'm equalizing them without realizing it. Haha! In any method, if it works, it works. ;-)
Oh! I should have clarified. It's rare for me because I tune so many older pianos that have suffered through major humidity shifts. The pins tend to be loose which makes what I'm doing here impossible. This isn't an old-old piano, but it has a healthy pin block. 😉
Banging = very hard test blows used to actually tune, not just test. "Bending" the pin is explained in the other video. You push on the lever to flex the pin toward or away from the speaking length. Many believe you should avoid doing this with any kind of serious pressure because it can damage the wood. I don't really know, but I try to do it gently, not going to extremes.
@@PianoTechMaggie you just said friction and tightness, but you mean 2 types of friction: static (causing jumpiness) and sliding (causing tight smooth rotation) right?
@Ekstrapolator Aproksymujący Ack! I thought I clarified that in the video!!! I meant to say I was talking about friction at the bearing points, such as the agraffe, capo bar, pressure bar, high angle under the non speaking length, etc. That's what I meant. I think that would be static friction only. Does that make sense? I will change my title and add that to the description. Do you want a prize? I have mutes, mute strips, and will be making key weights. If you have another idea for a prize, let me know. LOL! I want to make my key pounders but they are too expensive at around $50 each. 🙄
@@PianoTechMaggie oh, now it's clear, bearing points friction which enables setting non speaking length to higher tension but if there is too much of it it's hard to tune precisely
You're throwing "bent", "flexed", and "twisting" terms all together to where it's hard to know what you're really saying. I think it would be clearer if you just said "flag poling" (pin bends over) and "twisting" (top moves, bottom stays put) and talked about each one separately in different parts of the video.
I will try to remember that for next time. I have been told to not use the term "bend" but old habits are hard to break, so I'm currently using flexing & bending interchangeably. I'm not doing that on purpose. When I shoot from the hip in one take, whatever comes out, comes out. Some people don't know what flagpoling is, and Rick wants me to use the term, "flex", so I will try to stick with that one term. Twisting, I hope, doesn't have that same problem since I am only using that one term. In the case of a regular lever, it is impossible to not flex and twist at the same time unless you have loose pins. Those to motions work together.
@@PianoTechMaggie Yes, that's what I meant to say. Flagpoling and twisting are different things, and I was confused at times which one you were referring to. To me, "flex" and "bend" could both be either one, just depends in which plane the pin is flexing.
AH! I see what you are saying. "Flex" came about because some don't like the other two terms and I have heard it so often now that I assumed it had become common nomenclature. Oops! LOL
@@PianoTechMaggie Yeah, now I'm thinking "bend" sounds like "flagpole", and "flex" sounds like...I dunno. Now I'm confused. But "twist" definitely is clear. And "flagpole" can't be anything else. So I'm still liking those two.
@Ron Newman I may ask Rick what he thinks. He prefers the term flex because he thinks bend & flagpole sound extreme. Flagpole doesn't sound extreme to me, but it hasn't been in the vocabulary of the people I talk to most, so I haven't picked it up. All I know is I should be more clear in the future. 🤣
From an engineering perspective, you were talking complete nonsense, until I read your comment. It appears that your use of the word 'tightness' is actually refering to kinetic friction and your use of just friction refers to static friction. In other words, once the pin starts to move, it might 'slip' (low kinetic friction) and then stick (high static friction). And there's your 4 combinations.
Ah, no. Sorry about that. These "terms" are known in the tuning world and mean specific things. "Pin tightness" refers to the actual tightness (and friction) between the tuning pin and the wooden hole holding it. "Friction" refers to the bearing points the string has to cross after it leaves the pin. Does that make sense? Most tuners know what we mean by friction, so we drop the rest of the words in the phrase. Tuning pin tightness is more obvious. "Friction on bearing points after the string leaves the pin" just becomes, "friction". It's similar to why we don't call perfect fifth & perfect fourths perfect. Since we never tune any other type of fifth or fourth, we just drop the extra word.
Your analysis of loose pins, tight friction and the variable variables is brilliantly described. On many instruments I find variable variables even in the same instrument and I put a washer on looser pins so that in moving from one pin to another the felt washer warns me to apply a more gentle tension. With many of the instruments I tune the 90 degrees position works really well for me. One can pull sharp and then as the pin bends forward the string settles down into pitch and it's where it wants to be. On the subject of damage by pins bending it's minimised by having a short tuning tip as you have here. Many levers have tips which are much too long, or are at an absurd upwards angle and these must put the wrong leverage on the wrestplank and would seem more liable to cause damage. Thanks for this video. Many people are too prescriptive in technique and different methods have different applications in different circumstances. One method cannot be universal. I had an instrument which wasn't greatly coorperative so tried the 12 o'clock method ua-cam.com/video/1ivRR9sYZ0A/v-deo.html and didn't get on with it.
@unequally-tempered Hi! Thank you for the compliment! 😊 You are so right about there being no single method for all situations. While there are some general "truths," there are so many subtleties to our craft that everyone must indeed find their own way in all the grey areas. I learned a lot about lever technique from Dan Levitan. I think he would agree with you. His main thing is that it's impossible to not flex the pin at all, so you may as well use it to your advantage. And yes, we don't need to get carried away which is very easy to do. No wonder you don't care for the 12 o'clock method! That was terribly awkward! You need to move your tuning devices to the other side and sit at a 90⁰ angle to the piano to put you as square to the lever as possible. I found this video of me tuning a bit which shows you how I do it. The lever is either at 12, or as close to 12 as the pin fitting will allow without going past. I face toward the hinged side of the piano. I'm dealing with a temporary injury in this video, so please disregard the braces. If you ever feel like trying again, do try this way & let me know if it's any better for you.
ua-cam.com/video/UL3CqMc4K1g/v-deo.htmlsi=vz0uDCPgOf8cbzmC
Oh yes! Of course I wouldn’t use the ETD in that position interfering with the 12 o’clock position like that normally but doing a video single handed so that the viewer can see the ETD display as well as what one is doing isn’t always easy and especially when one is on a job rather than doing an exemplary instruction video. Nevertheless I was able to feel there that the 12 position wasn’t the solution on that instrument!
@unequally-tempered Oohh! I see. I also now understand you were talking about that specific instrument. Sorry for the misunderstanding! You did say that. 🙄🤦♀️🙃
Your video highlights the more difficult aspect of tuning pianos: correct use of the lever. So many people think owning a tuning app makes them a piano tuner, without realising that the hearing aspect of tuning is actually the 'easy' part. Loved the video.
Glad you're talking about this, because I think sometimes certain lever techniques tend to get cargo culted when in reality it's all so very situational.
Some thoughts on why flexing might affect the pinblock less than we might think:
1. If you have tuning pin bushings they're gonna take the brunt of it anyway
2. One time for grins I installed some leftover pins in a cutoff piece of pinblock, brought it to a chapter meeting, and let people flex them with a tuning lever to get a feel for how much force it took to actually bend them permanently. It takes a lot, far more than you'd ever reasonably use when tuning. Also, the pin will consistently deform right at the becket hole because that's the weakest point. So it may be that the tuning pin steel actually yields before you manage to crush the pinblock wood.
Thanks for all those thoughts. The thought about the beckett hole never occurred to me. I was going to put a pin in a vice & see how much it flexed, but I attempted it right when the vice was about to break...so...oops. 🤣 I have a new vice so will try again. 😉
My thinking on the wood: It's hard for me to imagine the bottom of the pin doesn't put pressure on the wood in the opposite direction of the flex, but it SEEMS to me that mild pin flexing doesn't cause excessive damage. I wish I could know for certain, but I just can't. 🤷♀️
@@PianoTechMaggie I hadn't thought of that at all, but it makes sense that it puts pressure on the opposite side of the hole too.
More great information and a fantastic review!!!
Thank you for the video! I thought stability came from equalizing tension in the speaking length and non-speaking lengths. I would think that having higher tension on the NSL would lead to the pitch going sharp as the tension equalized, i.e after hard blows and/or humidity changes, NSL lowers in tension and SL increases as string overcomes friction on agraffe or capo. Thank you in advance for any additional explanation!
Hi! Think of it this way: When the string is in motion, particularly on a loud note, the string tension on the speaking length is greater than when it is at rest. Therefore, if you equalize the tension between the SL & the NSL at rest, it can more easily pull flat when played loud. If the tension is equal between the SL & NSL when the string is played loudly, it won't go flat and will result in the NSL having slightly more tension at rest. This last scenario gives the most stability. However, you can accidentally get the NSL to have more tension than the SL on a hard blow, which will cause it to go sharp as you describe when that hard blow happens. Make sense?
@@PianoTechMaggie Yes, it makes sense! Thank you!
ahh - the in-block pin twist. Could write an article on just that! Most of the stability rests on what is happening in the pin hole. took me many a tune to handle this. Stabilizing the treble on Swys that are in good shape is the most challenging. I found a solution finally after many attempts and analyzing what is going on. Pitching is only the beginning!!
Thanks for this video, can you post a link to the video you reference that help you understand this better?
Here's the video I mentioned. I should get that into the description. Thanks!
ua-cam.com/video/rVXm1wz5PeU/v-deo.htmlsi=FbOdAUL-TdU_fdWJ
I find that on many longer non speaking length, I can come up from flat and leave it without having to go sharp. And as I was writing this, I heard you explain that it is possible. The longer the speaking length, the less effect flexing has at the friction point.
Yes. I have done that. It just depends. 🤷♀️
The best way to explain to someone about pin movement in a plank (pin block USA ), get hold of your first index finger, hold it tight then turn your wrist; the top of your finger will turn, and the bottom of your finger will stay, that explains pin twist, Bending the pin back and forward in the UK we call that telegraphing and that's very useful if you've got a lot of drag " friction" on the bearing point the pen is set, but you need to nudge it a touch.
Also, in the UK, most tuners have the lever on grand 9-6 for right-handed tuners; left-handed tuners tend to have 11 to 5; for a upright Pianos is generally 12-6 left-handed tuners maybe 11-5. Tuning Grands righthanded with the lever at 12-6 seems very uncomfortable to me as you have to lean right over the piano.
At the end of the day, it's what works best for you and the piano. If the end result is Good, it's not important.
Barrie
Lots of good points there! I use the finger in the hand method as well. Glad I'm not alone! 😁 That's really interesting about the tuning lever position! I agree the US method is more awkward. We tend to sit at a 45⁰ angle to the piano which can make it quite comfortable. The thinking about having it closer to 12:00 is that you can use a shorter tuning tip which will make the pin flex less. I have a levitan-C lever which I can hold in front of me. It is more comfortable but if I need to move a mute, I have to reach into the piano anyway. Moving mutes is faster if my hand is already there. Interesting stuff! 😊
It’s interesting that most of the pianos you encounter have looser pins with string drag. It’s exactly the opposite here in Miami. I see mostly newer pianos but in general every piano I tune has tight pins where you wouldn’t be able to turn the pin with just your fingers on the hammer. It really does require a completely different technique, especially for strings with low friction.
Yeah! No kidding! Definitely not my normal here. Thanks for sharing that point because it's important for people to know that different pianos require different hammer technique!
Nice video. Great to see and hear how passionate you are about tuning, Maggie. 🙂
Some things to add that may make it simpler.
Instead of friction, think of non-speaking length. (NSL) The longer the NSL, the less sensitive the NSL tension will be to hammer movement. This is eerily similar to high friction. Long NSL behaves the same as high friction. Notice you are on the shortest NSL. Hooke's Law states the tension will be more sensitive, just like a low-friction situation. All pianos have similar materials and angles, hence friction, but not similar NSL lengths, hence, we should expect them to behave differently, and they do.
Also, Dan Levitan invented his C-Lever which indeed does allow you to eliminate bending (he calls it tilting) but he also uses the hammer to bend the pin on purpose.
Yes, I'm aware of Dan's discoveries. It's great information. What you said all makes sense, except I have experienced pianos with unusually high friction for whatever reason. Those are not fun to tune. On those, the length of the NSL doesn't matter. The friction is high. I suppose it does matter because there will still be a difference, but the short NSL acts like the long one, and the long one acts doubly long. 😂 Have you seen my video of me trying to tune one of those? OMG...lol
@@PianoTechMaggie they are easy to tune. Pull up to pitch and leave it. Long NSL or high friction. Doesn’t matter. They behave the same. During tuning NSL is tight. After tuning untwist and unbend lowers NSL tension but not a lot. NSL tension stays high. Even if the pin isn’t set. Over time if the pin sets NSL tension still doesn’t lower much. I used to think of friction but it doesn’t make sense. For me NSL length comes first. Then if long acts short I know this is low friction. If short acts long it’s high friction.
Doesn’t matter how we think of it as long as we’re aware. It solves so many problems.
I think I understand what you are saying. I'm talking about a different situation where the friction is so high that when you pull it up, the pitch doesn't change until it suddenly jumps, often with a "ping", far above pitch. The inverse happens when lowering. I have a video somewhere of the worst one I have ever encountered, but I'd have to find it. I have a moderate one on UA-cam. Let me find that link. If I find the really bad one, I'll post it. It took me 3 hours to tune that thing. Crazy.
Here is the modetate one. Some of this piano would work with what you say, but not all, I think.
ua-cam.com/video/rVXm1wz5PeU/v-deo.html
In this video, you can hear it come into tune as I'm pulling up, but if I leave it there, it doesn't hold. It drops flat rather quickly. If I ever find the other video, I'll let you know. On that piano, I had to tune each note flat of pitch and bang the key. It would then pop UP to pitch and hold. Everything else I tried failed. It was nuts.
@@PianoTechMaggie That is a different issue. That is a jumpy agraffe. If the agraffe isn't jumpy, as you turn the pin the NSL tension will increase slowly until the agraffe friction is exceeded and the string will start sliding slowly through the agraffe and the pitch will start slowly rising. If the pitch jumps all of a sudden (you may hear a click) you will need to lubricate the agraffe. (BTW, I know you know this stuff. I'm just being more clear for your readers. 🙂)
I listened to the beginning of your other video. That is definitely a jumpy agraffe. You said, "Since the problem was with the agraffe, lubrication had no effect." That doesn't make sense. Jumpy agraffes are exactly the place where lubrication can work. However, ProTec doesn't work. Try ProLong synthetic lubricant. Much better.
Here is what I tell my students to try with jumpy agraffes (or jumpy pins). It works because as you turn the pin, the jump often happens only once and then if you keep turning the pin, the pin/string moves smoothly through the agraffe/pin block.
This is what I suggest:
Use Slow Pull Up
Go flat a bit. (or go sharp for slow pull down. It can also work with slow pull down but it is more rare)
Turn the pin until the jump happens
Concentrate on keeping a steady speed on the pin/string.
Drop the pitch when you reach the target
Notes:
If you don't move the pin/string fast enough, it may start jumping again. (That's why I often call this technique "fast pull" 🙂)
If you miss the target after letting go, start over. Do not try to finesse the pin/string. It will just jump again and you'll be circling the pitch forever.
The pitch will be where you want it. If the unbending/untwisting leaves the NSL tight enough but not too tight, the string will also be stable.
Good points
I have a piano with tight pins and high friction. I've rewatched this, but what are you suggesting for that situation?
Sorry I didn't see this. Let me show you another video:
ua-cam.com/video/rVXm1wz5PeU/v-deo.htmlsi=sYSp8y7tWBxaAJAI
I tuned my piano a few months ago and some of the unisons have shifted somewhat. Due to still using heating in my part of the world, the piano is a bit out of tune overall. Need to do it again now as we don’t t use heating now
It's fairly normal for many pianos to go out of tune when heating turns on & off. Ideally, you want unisons to stay when the piano goes out of tune, but they can shift.
Thanks for this video. I wonder if you can tell me which type of those four options is usual on a YAMAHA U3H (1976 vintage, refurbished in 2016), as it is my piano and I want to tune it. Thanks for any hint!
Unfortunately, two identical pianos can even be different, but I can tell you that the older a piano, the more likely you are to experience looser pins and higher friction. That's far from 100%, though. You just have to tune it and find out.
@@PianoTechMaggieThanks for answering my question!. Yes, I know it should vary from unit to unit, but perhaps knowing that the piano has a construction or another, as a model (for example, the U3H does not use agraffes), tends to be one or the other way. So far, what I have found is that pins are tight, so I guess we are talking of tight pins, high friction. Some time ago I would think that friction should be reduced by oiling... But it seems I was wrong. Luckily I had not done anything on it yet, but solving some unison problems. I proceed with the outmost caution!
Another thing which I may ask, if you allow me, is about the non-speaking part of the strings, on the lower side of the piano. I am hearing some vibrations that could be related to them not being correctly silenced. Is like a vibration which happens after a while after pressing a key, and seems to be out of tune. It sounds bad and is mostly heard around middle C, so it is an area which is used almost always and drives me nuts. I know for sure is internal to the piano. I am planning to add some felt strips on these areas, but wonder if that happens in this kind of pianos. Thanks!
@@JoseVGavila I'm afraid I don't know enough about specific pianos, except to say that the same thing in that two identical pianos can have different problems. I can, however, assure you that friction issues can happen without agraffes (if that's what you were implying). Friction can happen on the felt the strings rest on. It can happen on the capo bar. It can happen at any bearing point at all, including agraffes, but definitely not limited to them. "Oiling" can sometimes help, BUT, do not use regular oil!!! Regular oil will "creep" and can destroy the tone of your strings. Please only use a "counter bearing lube" such as Protek or John Page's CBL. They are thin enough to not cause trouble and don't "creep" like other lubricants. I have had success with them, but only around 50% of the time. I know others who swear by them, but I've not been as lucky. I would definitely try the felt strips in the NSL, and check the NSL on the hitch pin side as well. Sounds can come from both places. Sounds can, unfortunately, also come from other places. Sometimes they come from the strings themselves. There have been a few pianos where I never did find the source of the sound, and neither did some other techs. It makes us all crazy. I can tell you that new Pearl Rivers do this more than most, but the sounds go away after they are a few years old. As far as your pins, if they are tight, that's good. How are you knowing if you have high friction? If you turn the pin a small bit and the pitch doesn't change, that is a good way to know.
@@PianoTechMaggieThanks a lot for your detailed information!. I have read quite a bit and watched lots of videos on these topics, but I am really just an engineer and amateur musician trying to figure out the misteries of piano tuning 😅So this first-hand information is worth gold for me!. Thanks a lot, I will report back what I find
A universal way to keep the friction between the pin and the pinblock hole. You have chosen a very correct position from 15 o'clock to 18 o'clock (for grand piano). This is the optimal position to save the resource wood part of the piano's hole (bush + pin block hole).
The pin is almost impossible to bend because it is made of a very hard metal alloy. At the moment when you try to "bend" it, the pin remains unchanged, its deformation does not occur. When you bend the pin, there is excessive pressure on the wood wall of the hole there. And it's operation is denting of the pin into wood.
The ideal position for great tuning is closer to 18 down. It looks ridiculous (the handle rests on the belly in time of a tuning), but it's painless for the hole and bush.
Best regards, Max
I believe it's impossible to not lean the pin into the wood from any position since there is always lateral pressure as explained and demonstrated by Dan Levitan, but yes, I agree that keeping it to a minimum is important. I'm still unsure how much extra is safe, if any. I made this video for you, just to show the pin can flex a tiny bit, but perhaps not enough to matter. 🤷♀️
ua-cam.com/users/shortsdGjEP_O62n0?feature=share
Me thanks, Maggie,
Yes, thank you for the video specially made for me there too. There I will write my understanding of it.
regards,
I agree that bending the pin is more accurately producing compressing of the pin block wood, but just turning the pin does incredibly more harm to the pin block than just bending it.
Think about it.
Pin is in hole.
String is pulling 150lbs
Pin is "smashed" into bottom of hole, just sitting there, and then you come along and turn it.
What happens at bottom of hole?
SSSSSSCCCCCCRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEECCCCCCHHHHHHHH!
Very damaging.
Of course we have no choice. There is no way to turn the pin without grinding out the bottom of the hole. Yes, it is damaging but thankfully pin block material is very resilient. That's why it is used.
But you say no bendy the pin. I say of course bendy the pin. Bendy the pin all you want because the damage is much smaller compared to just turning the pin.
Dan Levitan says "Tilty the pin, young man(woman)"
Think of what happens when you bend the pin. (Bend is an engineering term. Let's use it. It means to apply a bending force that produces elastic deformation)
Pin is smashed against bottom of hole due to 150 lbs of tension from string.
You bend the pin towards the string.
Pin block feels the extra force but says to the pin, "Oh you are pretty boy. You nice to me. I feel soft pressure which makes pinnyblock feel sweet and happy. Not like brutal bad boy who scratches me with his scratchy, scratchy, screech, screech. You good boy. Thank you."
"You believes that turning the tuning pin without any bending force can cause significant damage to the pinblock. The rotational motion of the tuning pin produces a screeching sound that can damage the hole wall. You suggests that tilting or bending the pin can mitigate such damage, citing Dan Levitan's method of "Tilty the pin, young man(woman)."
On the other hand, I'm approach advocates for handling the tuning pins radially in the pin block and bushing with external force applied by the hammer. Me argues that any lateral oscillations of the tuning pin could potentially harm the wooden parts of the grand piano, including the pinblock and bushing there. To reduce such risk and alleviate the string pressure on the hole wall while rotating the tuning pin, me recommends using the 15-18 method there(only).
Dan Levitan created grand piano's wrench to never anybody work in other sector except as 15-18 there.
Although both me and you hold different views and approaches, we agree that proper tuning requires a great deal of experience and expertise. The choice of method ultimately depends on the tuner's discretion and familiarity with each method's strengths and limitations, I'm think.
regards, Max"
@@TheMaximillyan it’s not theory. You have seen pins with space above between pin and block that are tight. This pre occupation with destroying the pin block is unfounded in my opinion.
I didn’t say bending mitigates the effect. I said bending does less damage.
Dan’s lever may be at 6:00 but he lifts it and presses down on it - he agrees with me.
Tuning the way you do - trying not the bend - doesn’t hurt the piano but neither does bending if done moderately.
Do you find yourself having to intentionally bend or tilt pins when you use your C-lever?
Yes. Dan Levitan, the inventor, also does.
I don't know - *bending* the *pin* ? They are relatively short, stout and HARD STEEL. What I think actually happens is the hole in the pin block actually flexes within the wood (kind of microscopically, almost) and allows the pin therefore to move as if it's being bent. Maybe that's what you actually mean.
@catkeys6911 Yeah. There is a lot of debate about this, and I go around and around about it. Regardless of what happens, "bend the pin" is common vocabulary with it. I've played around with bending the pin in a vice, and it does bend a little, but I don't believe we aren't compromising the wood. As you pointed out, they are hardened steel. So, yes-ish. That's what I mostly mean.
That's kind of what I figured - it's just common terminology and I was being very picky. But trust me - if you move the pin laterally in the pin block, you're actually moving wood grain. If the pin got bent, it wood wobble a little (the center of its end would travel in a tiny circle) when you turned it- and they never do, right? As you may know, the pin block is a laminate - like a VERY high quality, VERY dense plywood, so the grains in it go every which way, which thwarts the hole from elongating as you "bend" the pin. Steel is much stronger than wood. @@PianoTechMaggie
@catkeys6911 Bend is definitely the wrong word. More people are using the word, "flex" these days. I think that is more general in its meaning and can mean both the pin and wood. I've actually seen a bent pin. Not pretty. I can't imagine how hard someone had to push on it to make that happen. 😳 There was an experiment by a PTG chapter that involved a lazer on a celing. It's amazing how much lateral movement happens in the pin no matter how hard you try to keep it stable. So, if it moves anyway, why not use it to your advantage? 😉
@catkeys6911 Bend is definitely the wrong word. More people are using the word, "flex" these days. I think that is more general in its meaning and can mean both the pin and wood. I've actually seen a bent pin. Not pretty. I can't imagine how hard someone had to push on it to make that happen. 😳 There was an experiment by a PTG chapter that involved a lazer on a celing. It's amazing how much lateral movement happens in the pin no matter how hard you try to keep it stable. So, if it moves anyway, why not use it to your advantage? 😉
I know this is an older video but I knew I wasn’t crazy when I tune certain pianos with poor rendering by flagpoling the pin forward as I turn it clockwise. The only thing is I have to make sure I don’t flagpole too much or the note ends up sharper than where I left it and can be unstable. But then again, if consistent enough, unstable notes can fall out of tune in tune…ahhhh!
I think everything you said is spot on except your last sentence. I'm not sure I understand it. Can you reword it?
@@PianoTechMaggie Sorry what I meant by the last sentence is that there have been times where despite the note ending up sharper due to over bending, the pitch would fall into place upon pounding the key and the unisons would still be clean because the strings slipped uniformly due to being consistent with the tuning lever technique. Was just trying to make a play on words but probably ended up sounding crazy anyway. Oh well thanks for the informative videos.
Okay so you aim for more tension at the non-speaking length, than on the speaking length ? I thought stability was to spread the exact same tension everywhere, which is a nightmare when string has a very high friction points (sorry Im not english). My approach is to leave an un-twisted pin behind me, so I over turn the tuning pins the right amount to counter that... I feel you have a different technique
Your English is pretty good! For me, it's a specific concept. For example, if you equalize tensions on the SL & NSL, it will be perfectly stable unless you have a hard/loud blow. When a string is set into motion with force, the tension on the SL naturally increases. If the tension on the NSL isn't high enough, the pitch will go flat. If you have a perfect situation with just the right friction, both scenarios may work. If the friction isn't ideal, then one scenario will work better than the other. Which situation requires which setting can be found with test blows. Do whatever works. I have a suspicion that most stable tunings have more tension on the NSL without the tuner realizing they are doing it. Either that, or I'm equalizing them without realizing it. Haha! In any method, if it works, it works. ;-)
Is this a newer piano? Is that why it is so rare?
Oh! I should have clarified. It's rare for me because I tune so many older pianos that have suffered through major humidity shifts. The pins tend to be loose which makes what I'm doing here impossible. This isn't an old-old piano, but it has a healthy pin block. 😉
Is it me or are those do those pins look really uneven from your camera angle? Two: what hammer is that? Three yeah, tight pins and low friction 😁
They do kinda look uneven, don't they?!? Ha! Reyburn tuning lever. 😉
@@PianoTechMaggie very nice I love my Fujan though
@@MitchRuth I like mine too! I went back to it after trying this one. 😉
Thanks, what do you mean by bending the pins? And what do you mean by "banging it"? Like the test blows?
Banging = very hard test blows used to actually tune, not just test. "Bending" the pin is explained in the other video. You push on the lever to flex the pin toward or away from the speaking length. Many believe you should avoid doing this with any kind of serious pressure because it can damage the wood. I don't really know, but I try to do it gently, not going to extremes.
@@PianoTechMaggie Rewatching now that I understand better :)
you mean static friction
I think so. What did I say?
@@PianoTechMaggie you just said friction and tightness, but you mean 2 types of friction: static (causing jumpiness) and sliding (causing tight smooth rotation) right?
@Ekstrapolator Aproksymujący Ack! I thought I clarified that in the video!!! I meant to say I was talking about friction at the bearing points, such as the agraffe, capo bar, pressure bar, high angle under the non speaking length, etc. That's what I meant. I think that would be static friction only. Does that make sense? I will change my title and add that to the description. Do you want a prize? I have mutes, mute strips, and will be making key weights. If you have another idea for a prize, let me know. LOL! I want to make my key pounders but they are too expensive at around $50 each. 🙄
@@PianoTechMaggie oh, now it's clear, bearing points friction which enables setting non speaking length to higher tension but if there is too much of it it's hard to tune precisely
@@ekstrapolatoraproksymujacy412 EXACTLY! 😁
после одного выступления строй расползется при такой технике работы с ключом..
I'm not sure what you are saying, but if you are talking about stability, I only tune for this church once per year and it holds well.
You're throwing "bent", "flexed", and "twisting" terms all together to where it's hard to know what you're really saying. I think it would be clearer if you just said "flag poling" (pin bends over) and "twisting" (top moves, bottom stays put) and talked about each one separately in different parts of the video.
I will try to remember that for next time. I have been told to not use the term "bend" but old habits are hard to break, so I'm currently using flexing & bending interchangeably. I'm not doing that on purpose. When I shoot from the hip in one take, whatever comes out, comes out. Some people don't know what flagpoling is, and Rick wants me to use the term, "flex", so I will try to stick with that one term. Twisting, I hope, doesn't have that same problem since I am only using that one term. In the case of a regular lever, it is impossible to not flex and twist at the same time unless you have loose pins. Those to motions work together.
@@PianoTechMaggie Yes, that's what I meant to say. Flagpoling and twisting are different things, and I was confused at times which one you were referring to. To me, "flex" and "bend" could both be either one, just depends in which plane the pin is flexing.
AH! I see what you are saying. "Flex" came about because some don't like the other two terms and I have heard it so often now that I assumed it had become common nomenclature. Oops! LOL
@@PianoTechMaggie Yeah, now I'm thinking "bend" sounds like "flagpole", and "flex" sounds like...I dunno. Now I'm confused. But "twist" definitely is clear. And "flagpole" can't be anything else. So I'm still liking those two.
@Ron Newman I may ask Rick what he thinks. He prefers the term flex because he thinks bend & flagpole sound extreme. Flagpole doesn't sound extreme to me, but it hasn't been in the vocabulary of the people I talk to most, so I haven't picked it up. All I know is I should be more clear in the future. 🤣
From an engineering perspective, you were talking complete nonsense, until I read your comment. It appears that your use of the word 'tightness' is actually refering to kinetic friction and your use of just friction refers to static friction. In other words, once the pin starts to move, it might 'slip' (low kinetic friction) and then stick (high static friction). And there's your 4 combinations.
Ah, no. Sorry about that. These "terms" are known in the tuning world and mean specific things. "Pin tightness" refers to the actual tightness (and friction) between the tuning pin and the wooden hole holding it. "Friction" refers to the bearing points the string has to cross after it leaves the pin. Does that make sense? Most tuners know what we mean by friction, so we drop the rest of the words in the phrase. Tuning pin tightness is more obvious. "Friction on bearing points after the string leaves the pin" just becomes, "friction". It's similar to why we don't call perfect fifth & perfect fourths perfect. Since we never tune any other type of fifth or fourth, we just drop the extra word.
@@PianoTechMaggie OK, now that all makes much more sense.
@@johnpearcey I'm glad! Sorry for the lack of definitions. It's a known idiom in my world. 😉
none of this makes any sense.
Hi @ellenrosenblatt5463. Are you a piano tuner?