Anytime any motorcycle manufacturer steps out and does something different, I am all for it. I am excited to see what Harley Davidson does over the next 10 years.
Harley is not just a brand name. It is a TYPE of motorcycle. And the stupid pan America POS is not that type. The rebadged Aermacchi bikes that Harley sold in the '50s and '60s failed. The VRod failed. The "Street" failed. Why? Simple. They were not Harleys. Just putting the Harley name on a bike does not make it a Harley. A Harley is a big touring bike, a big cruiser, or a Sportster. That's it. They all use basically the same engine. A long stroke 45 degree single crankpin v-twin that gives them a feel and sound unlike any other motorcycle. The sound and feel are why I ride Harleys. Nobody wants a sport bike, an adventure bike, or a battery powered bike that says Harley on it but is not a real Harley. There are plenty of other brands out there that make stuff like that. Harley needs to stick to making HARLEYS.
Harley Davidson does have some experience with off-road bikes, and even won a Baja 500 back in the day. I even remember a 2 cycle Harley. And don’t forget the Harley Sprint line. Harley Buell made the Ulysses which was an adventure bike. Heavy as a ton but still..... I’ve been riding Harleys since 1980 and also love dual sports and Adv bikes. I also get tired of people calling HD dealerships boutiques. Harley has a multi billion dollar business just in apparel and accessories. Isn’t the point of a company to make money. Great video!!!
Innovation and competition benefits us all. Good for Harley in stepping out of their comfort zone. I imagine the guys at Klim can't wait for this to come out.
Craig, I deem this your best written review bid ever! Nice job on the writing and presentation. On the HD, the success of the Pan America will not be based on its technical capabilities or add on gadgets but on HD's success in marketing a new bike to a new (to HD) audience. First impression, the crash bars look like something I could have welded up in a few hours in my garage from 3/4" black pipe. Like you, I like that it is different and like that it provides a choice and equally because it starts a new conversation within my favorite part of the market, the adventure bike sector. And if anyone from HD does read this, I second the idea that you give Craig a chance to ride your machine. His 16,000 subs will put great faith in his opinions and thus, so should HD!
Thanks Richard. I have a feeling the after-market community is going o love this bike, so someone will come up with some better crash bars and windscreen, etc...
Okay, here is my opinion, and I own a Harley so.....the biggest "if" about this bike is going to be the new motor and knowing Harley, they have always been able to produce a solid and dependable V-twin (except for the AMF years) that puts out a lot of torque. Just what an adventure bike needs. So even though "marketing " sells bikes, the future of this adventure bike (and the Streetfighter) will depend on this new motor.
Adventure bike? I'd say whatever bike you are riding on "your" adventure is an adventure bike. I like that Harley is reaching beyond their comfort zone as I am a motorcycle enthusiast myself and will look at anyone's bike and chat about adventures. Everyone that I have met on the road travelling is about the adventure and loves to talk about it and share experiences, not bash a guy for what he rides or what direction they are riding.
We connect with other RIDERS sharing the interest of riding. That's enjoyable to add to the ADVENTURE no matter what we ride. Choose your own moto vation.
Hey Craig, I just wanted to say that as a fellow rider who also appreciates bikes that are unique, that challenge the moto status quo, this was a really good discussion. Very thoughtful and objective. Nice work. Cheers from Alaska! Subscribed. 👍
It's all about 2 wheels. It's what makes you happy. Ive been riding since I was 14. I'm 51 now I own 2005 250 Honda dirt bike 2014 V rod muscle 2019 CVO ultra limited And I'm buying this Adventure bike Because it makes me happy and it's my money and I do wtf I want with it Every body has an opinion Most people don't know what they are talking about
Young guy on an ADV checking in- I ride my Tiger Explorer and don't own a car. Harley has a shot at winning me over with this thing. What I'd want to see is a couple things: -It needs to be easy to wrench on. Not necessarily as much as an Iron 883 or anything, but It shouldn't be an all-day commitment to do work under the tank like it is on my TEX. -It'd be cool in my opinion to see this enter as a "no bullshit" alternative to the real tech-saturated bikes which are dominating the market. I, for one, don't need or want a TFT dash. I don't mind dealing with a few extra hand switches to control the bits of riding tech I actually do want. The only reason it should ever consider linking to my cell-phone is so I can read my own codes. I don't need the 1000$ premium for the dash, the 800$ for the IMU, or the $300 for integration with my goddamned go-pro (Looking at you, Triumph!) Give me something down-market a little bit. -That windscreen has got to go. Oh my God is it hideous. I really like the look of the rest of the bike. It's a Harley, though, so perhaps the aftermarket will find a solution. -Its ok if the motor doesn't make peak horsepower like it's European counterparts. The 140 my Tiger makes is more than adequate. It better make torque, though. Gimme three-figures. I want it to pop up like a dirt bike from hell.
I own a 1969 Harley Electra Glide and a 2018 KTM 1290 SAR so I like Harleys and ADV bikes. My age is between yours and Mario's although probably closer to yours. I agree with you that Harley should have built a smaller lighter and less expensive ADV bike first to appeal maybe to the younger market and then working their way up as their customer base builds as I stated in Mario's video but disagree with you on the looks don't matter. I like performance in a motorcycle, although the performance between my old Harley and my KTM is quite significant, but the bike has to appeal to me in the looks category or I'm just not interested. Although beauty is in the eye of the beholder and this beholder hopes Harley doesn't stick with, in my opinion, the LEGO prototype.
Thanks Mario, nice job on your video! Personally, I think that would be an awesome way for them to get the word out. Two generations of riders, two different backgrounds. Both good on camera...come on Harley!!
Thanks for a pensive and insightful video. A year and a half plus a pandemic later, it is still insightful. The virtual launch for Pan America will be on Feb 22, 2021.
Good video Craig. I am a die hard Harley guy but I bought myself a used V Strom 650 this year and I absolutely love it! I really enjoy the new roads it has opened for me. I am excited to see the Pan American and I really do hope in the future they come out with some smaller bikes in this class. I will seriously be looking at one of these if they are good if not I will stay with the V Strom.🤠
Both of you did an excellent review and both have valid points. As a HD rider am glad they are trying new things. They do have a long road ahead. I will be getting into the ADV scene in a few years and like you. I like the option of buying and American bike but it also needs to meet my needs.
I like the Pan America . I hope it will be available in 2020 as i mid range model. I now own a 2018 electra glide Police M8. I am always in for something new.
I agree with you. I’m glad Harley is trying other categories of bikes. I’ve had one Harley, lots of Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis. I would hope it turns out to be a competitive bike.
I just think it would have been smarter to start with a smaller, lighter, inexpensive 650/750cc range Dual Sport. But, I really hope this bike performes and sells well.
I love you father .. i learn how to speak english now little bit better ... and i love the bike you talked about ... thank you ... now my writing also good... i love you man 🤗👌😘🇧🇭⚘
Completely agree with pretty much everything you said. I am a Harley owner today, want an adventure bike soon to commute, go out and have some fun and be able to do some adventure riding. Of course I want more options and now Harley will be on my list in this segment. I can’t see a downside to having the option. Naysayers are just that, love to be negative just to be negative. When it is released, if it can’t perform, or it’s a great performer, then the market will dictate its success or failure.
I’m not sure the Pan American will actually make it to market. The existing big dual sports are loosing ground to the smaller dual sport bike like the smaller Tenere 700. I’m in my mid 50’s and not in as good of shape as you are Mr. R. I rode my brothers GS a while back and with its height, it’s just too heavy for me to do any serious of roading or single track adventures. If I want a touring cruiser, I’ll stick with my Road Glide. I used to race cross country on a KTM 250 and a 500. After an hour on the brothers GS I admit, I’m not that 15 to 21 year old kid that could fall down and get right back up anymore. My bones, twisted ankles, knees, elbows and wrists don’t work like they did back then. So now I’m looking for a lighter bike to do the off road adventures like a KLR 650 or maybe even smaller. I’ll be rigging my Ram 2500 up and slightly modifying it in to a conservative overland vehicle that I can carry one bike on the front and one on the back with roof top tents, awnings and full camping gear needed to stay out for weeks at a time. Once to camp, we will Unload the bikes and hang for a day or two riding the trails, then pack up and head out again. I would have been a Pan American buyer because I am such a Harley enthusiast, but after riding one of the big dual sports and realizing, I am not the rider I once was, I’m going to spend the $20-$25k I would have spent on the Pan Am and go a complete different direction. Just like the Live Wire, the Pan Am is going to go to a niche market of guys and or gals that realize the Harley may not be as good of a bike as some of the others, but by god it’s a Harley. I’ve road Harley’s for 30 years and that’s the bike that going to take up the most spots in my shed. Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your input. As on owner of a big ADV, I am not interested in single track. I have done it and my skill level is not high enough. Dirt and gravel roads are great but as you said the hard core stuff is better done on a smaller bike. However, myself and the vast majority of my friends who ride the big ADV bikes ride them as touring bikes that are capable of taking on those dirt and gravel roads, not as big dirt bikes. The numbers I have seen suggest that 80 % of them will never see the dirt. It remains to be seen how many HD riders are adventure curious, but there are several folks responding to this video who are. Time will tell...
last year I went from Charleston, SC out to Vegas.. all the way out I would say 90% of the bikes I saw were adventure bikes. The problem with HD is they out price themselves, so as long as they keep the price inline with other adventure bikes they'll sell them. Yes I'm an HD dude I ride a 2019 Ultra Limited I've had this one since March 30th and already have 12,500 miles on it. Would I buy an adventure bike whether HD or another brand, no, but that is me.
Interesting. I still see mostly cruisers and a lot more trikes, but ADV bikes are getting more and more popular. Still mostly us old guys out there traveling though.
@@LivingOffTheSlab Now this year I saw less adv bikes and more cruisers, maybe it was the time of the year. Last year it was May and this year it was July. Plus this year I did more of the northern rocky mountain states.
I have to go with your opion on this. HD has a back ground longer than most in racing . My thoughts come out with this bike in the higher price range then refine refine refine. Thenn come out with a 650 or 750 that competes with the klr or the dr, under ten grand Hd will make some folks to start sweating with there adv bikes then , It will be interesting. Ron
I really like the idea of a Harley ADV bike. I've had both a Vstrom 1000 and a Super Tenere. I can't afford a new bike but would certainly consider picking up a used one in a few years.
Good video!. one of my favorite bikes was a BUELL Ulysses. It was more like 85% Road and 15% light off road..but it's such an excellent bike to be on. So maybe the new Harley has learned something from Buell and some of the characteristics of the buell...and I've have 30+ bikes.
Harley has a lot of history in racing and off highway. There were no highways when they started making bikes. The first race was right after the second one was built.
So my 2 cents. Dealers don't appear interested. They want to get their hands on the Street Fighter and the next generation Sportster. They know how to sell road bikes and generate revenue from optional parts and service. ADV's will collect dust in a dark corner of the dealerships. ADV's will only play a small part in a H-D's dealers revenue stream and sales will only put minimal effort into moving the line. Dealers can move road bikes with the new water cooled engine and especially the 975cc bikes since this is where the market action is happening. A lot of great bikes (like Buell) die on the sales floor.
@@LivingOffTheSlab It would be great if you and Mario could meet at one of the Winter bike shows and do a join video reviewing bikes and discussing the state of the AVD market and motorcycling in general. That would be quite informative.
I loved your comments and views! I ride a 2015 Harley Ultra Limited Low, I have ridden that bike from Denver to and around Alaska including the entire Alaska Highway. It performed well in all sorts of situations and as I’m sure you know camping especially in Alaska and the Yukon are pretty much an off road experience. At that time I was not able to buy a second bike for the trip but would not have changed a thing. BUT I did become interested in adding an adventure bike to my inventory and I would welcome it to be a Harley (doesn’t have to be but it would be good with me). I agree with your comments and appreciate your making this video. I also subscribe to Two Wheel Rider so I will check out his video as well.
Thanks so much! When you get down to it, all bikes are adventure bikes and every ride an adventure. Harleys were by far the most common bike on the Alaska Highway and I think based on you comments as well as others, there are quite a few people that would be in interested in this bike, price and performance dependent of course.
I totally agree with all your points. While I haven't been following the chatter on the pan american, it doesn't surprise me that the haters have been out in force. A lot of people like to hate on Harley for some reason. I did a little off the cuff motovlog on that a year or two ago. I hope they sell the heck out of that thing.
Nice video. being of the same generation I agree with you about the age when it comes to Large Adventure Bikes. My son who is 26 rides a 1090 Adventure R. He has spent a lot of time off-pavement on three of the BDR's since he bought it two years ago. The younger guys he rides with are riding KTM 690s and DR650's. If I had the funds there would be a 1250 GS or a 1290 SA in my garage. Because I didn't want to make payments on a Motorcycle I bought a new V-Strom 650. Something I could pay cash for. My adventures are on tarmac these days and it works great for that. I can see a larger adventure bike in my future and will look at the Pan-American. If they can get the price in the $17000 to $23000 and keep the weight below 550 lbs wet I think they have a chance. Keep up the great videos.
People have been riding Harley's off road since their inception. I'm looking forward to seeing this bike in real use. I'm not a H-D fan, but they do have their niche.
I agree with you on several points. Even though I ride a V-STROM I like the idea of having the option of buying an American made adv bike. For a couple of the same reasons I ride a V-Strom, I will probably not buy the Harley... price and weight. However, as you've pointed out... we don't know for sure what the bike will be in the end. Wouldn't It be great if it hit the ground at 500 lbs and a $15,000 price point? This old guy would consider buying it. Question, do you think it'll be belt drive? Difficult to imagine that working well off road.
My understanding is that it is chain driven. I would imagine that 500 pounds is too much to ask for, but hopefully under 600 and I have seen price estimates all over the place. We will just have to wait and see. Thanks!
Hope Harley sells a ton of those. Hey Craig regarding your choosing a new bike I strongly suggest you get a goldwing, it's the best one to travel two up. Great videos keep em coming
Great video as usual! I actually like the looks of the bike and I’m glad Harley is taking a chance on it. Couple of concerns I have though, it’s probably going to weight 750lbs which isn’t great for off road riding and will cost $25k because Harley will make you pay dearly for the new technology they’re adding to the bike. That said I hope I’m wrong because I’d like to see Harley remain successful over the long run!
I am sure it will cost something in that range, but so does the GS. If it goes 750 though, it will be done. It needs to be around the 600 mark, hopefully less. Thanks!
Craig, some great talking points and couldn't agree more its great to have a domestic option in the ADV category. I'm just having a hard time getting past the front end and that head light. Would win hands down in a Lost in Space robot look-a-like contest...Danger Will Robinson...Danger!! PS. You came across three young guys on your 60 ride. The two you mentioned + Me....lol
If Harley can start with a clean slate maybe they can come up with a viable competitor. Maybe this would bring some much needed new blood into the Harley customer base. It will be fun to follow the bike as different people ride and review it.
I’m already planning on buying one. I currently own a Dyna Switchback and a Buell S1. I’m just hoping that it isn’t super tall like every other adv bike. It sucks that all good adv’s are made for tall people.
I like the looks of it. It has a interesting styling. Hopefully it’s successful. I would most likely never buy a Harley cruiser. However, I would consider something along these lines. I wish Indian would get in on the ADV market as well. It’s only a matter of time before I buy an ADV bike. I’ve been waiting for a refresh on the Super Tenere, to see what improvements they come up with. But now I’ve got more to look forward to with Harley.
I am a harley rider, old guy like you and i would love to get a second bike in the next year or two har ley has a big network around the world think service ,parts if the pan american works out that is a big plus, they have been doing flat track and up hill races for a lot of years , so lets see what comes out.
I’m not into adventure bikes. But this is going to be interesting to see how it turns out. HD has to do something different for sure. Stay safe Craig.😎
Great video, the bike looks very different from anything else and that's good, a point not mentioned is the music coming from the exhaust, which in my book is one of the most important things! I've been riding GSAs for over 10 years but might consider that particular HD if it sounds right! 👍🏻
Interesting, I had not thought about the exhaust note. I guess I am not looking for a loud rumble on my ADV bike, I actually prefer quiet, especially when riding on a nice dirt road.
@@LivingOffTheSlab In London traffic, as in anywhere busy, pipes music can be a genuine safety feature! (...and everyone loves a Yoshimura while using a quickshifter in a tunnel...)
After seeing a pro rider on the official Harley video advert on this I can say that the bike looks fairly nimble and powerful. The specifications seem to support this. But remember, they've done this before with Aerramacchi in the 1970's (remember the 125 and 250 enduros?) This is a compelling foray once again into that sector. But, how compelling is still anyone's guess. I'm about your age, although I've been told I look much younger. And, I can wheelie forever. Harley- I'm your demo guy. Drop me a line, let's kick some dirt.
Moto Guzzi was, for the most part, in the same boat as Harley, jumping into the ADV world. Turns out the V85 is a great success. I hope it works out for Harley. Style is in the eye of the beholder. Im OK with the styling of the P/A except for the early Cylon looking headlight.
Any new motorcycle appearing on the market is a good thing. We all ride various type's of machines, and I'm sure that someone will want one. Adventure bikes are purely functional, not pretty in the least. I say give Harley a fighting chance to present their new machine and in the end, the sales figures will determine if it was the right decision to move into the adventure market. More choice for more riders!!
looks much tighter and lighter than an r1250gs, multistrada and super tenere. My bet is that it's going to weigh around 240kg with a full tank and centerstand. Furthermore, it has proper linkage suspension in the rear and seems to have decent ground clearance. I would like to see one with a one piece seat, a shorter windscreen and maybe a high fender.
At my age and place in riding I'm starting to consider adventure bike as my next purchase. If I buy one, I expect to use it to the fullest. My biggest question would be reliability. Being new, unproven and made by a company that has no known experience with adventure type bikes. Not to mention HD's less than stellar service and reliability record...... I'd have some SERIOUS questions and apprehensions about the Pan-American's ability to go the distance and be kept going in harsh conditions and over the long term.
I’m liking the design. LED headlights are only just now coming on full swing and I think that form can follow this new compact lighting function which Harley seems to have done. It looks like and Harley married to an adventure sport type bike. If they hit 18 to 25 and 130 ponies they are in IMHO
Harley should make A flat tracker style & a scrambler style bike , they can still keep the classic old range, step outside the box Harley just take a look at triumph how they have evolved from the old days
I'd have to ride it..I bought my 2015 1290 Super Adventure after I rode it. Prior to that I had a pic of the Ducati 1200 Grand Terismo on my fridge after riding it, before that i was thinking I wanted the BMW. So again I'd have to ride it
Having watched Long Way Round, and Long Way Down...I would submit that a bigger machine is the opposite way to go in the current market. They got wore out fast lifting a big heavy machine, and seeing things like the KLR 650 and other smaller machines seems like the smart way to go. I'm not a fan trying to pick up a big machine loaded down with gear for a long ride.
Playing devils advocate, how many people are riding "adventure bikes" as true off-road or RTW bikes? I suspect that number is really small. Most people are using them as touring bikes and the larger machines work better for carrying loads and traveling on tarmac. I agree that smaller bikes are better for off road riding, but that is not what most people are doing and we like bigger and more power. Why did BMW up the boxer to 1250 and Honda is talking about a bigger Africa Twin and Ducati about a bigger Multistrada. These bikes are were the profit is.
@@LivingOffTheSlab I would suspect you are dead on point there. I am part of an African Twin forum...and the percentage of riders using them as designed for serious off road work appears to be low double to high single digits.
ADV bikes are multipurpose bikes that go a lot of places. Glad Harley is moving in this direction. It's about time. Prolly not going to sell my GS unless this bike can match it's performance at a lower price. I doubt it'll be a lower price.
The problem with not having a history in this segment is that they have to learn all the things the others already know. It's not as easy as just build an adventure motorcycle.
So Guzzi should not have made the V85TT? No manufacturer should ever branch out from what it has historically done? People with the know can be hired and what others have done is not a secret. All you have to do is buy a bike and take a look.
I'm too short to ride Any of the ADV bikes. I'd need a step stool to get on or off. But, It's good to see H-D departing from their one market cruiser lines, and try to reach out. What interests me is the design of the new engines for this and the Street fighter, and the 1250 Custom. Maybe in the future I'll be able to get a liquid cooled, DOHC, Euro5 compliant, engine in a small cruiser chassis from an American manufacturer. The new 975 would make a great replacement for the current Sportster, and there's no reason the new 1250 couldn't power a Dyna/Softail type chassis. The one thing they'll need will be reliability to match your new 1600 or some of the other competition.
I am a function over form guy too and like you, have never been an HD fanboy. Having said that, I think all adventure bikes are ugly.and , in my opinion, the Harley is more interesting as far as looks than the gangly mainstream ADV offerings. Harley can't win. No matter what they do , they will be critiqued to death. I';m glad to see them do something different. They are so bound by "what a Harley should look like" that it is literally killing them. They just released the 2020 HD's and they look exactly like the HDs from 2 decades ago. Their greatest mistake to date imho is their electric bike at $30K . It will be a failure in sales.
You are correct, they will always be criticized no matter what they do. They are just looking at the changing market and trying to adapt. We have a tendency to look at things as they have been in the past and think they will always be that way. Companies like Harley have to responded to today and at the same time try to predict the future. I agree too that the Live Wire is way overpriced, but I also think it is a lost leader, proof of concept bike. It is meant to introduce the technology as the smaller vehicles are being developed. Did you see the Harley, ebikes?
Your point about performance is well made, alas if there is any criticism that could be leveled at HD it's that they can never make a bike that will do anything but go in a straight line along a concrete road. I think HD is making a big mistake going up against BMW- seems obvious to me that they want to lock horns with Bavaria (1250cc... cc, not cubes!). I look forward to this bike, I really do, maybe it'll be a really great mile eater and just "OK" on a fire track, no one is really expecting it to place at the next Dakar ;-)
If it can't turn, that would be a problem...LOL. I am sure there will be comparisons with the GS, we shall see how it does. As long as it is respectable...
Well said Craig, now like you I will not buy this bike but I am not their consumer demographic. I like my V-Strom and will stick with it for some years to come. But I do agree with some of what you said.
I love it. about time they made a fully liquid cooled engine. I want one but cant afford one. I'll just drive my Softail for another ten years and hope I can find a used one till then I still have my Honda crf 250 for off road use. But there's nothing like a good old v twin sound. Maby I can convert a 1200 Sportster for off road? Any one done it before?
I we watched Mario video also, so here is my 2 cents. A Harley is a Harley is a Harley... Harley Davidson are geniuses at marketing and advertising. If you purchase a Harley, most likely you will buy a Harley jacket, shirt, boots, helmet, underwear, socks , house ware etc. In this case, its obvious that looks and top performance doesn't matter to Harley. They are entering the market because they know that they can depend on their loyal costumers purchasing it just because... Harley also know that they can convenience anyone thinking about an ADV bike, to purchase the Pan-America because its an "American" made bike. (Hence the name). Harley track record for its reliability will never be a factor. We are not in the adv market, but if I (Rich) was the Harley will be my choice...NOT! Great video collaboration.
Thanks Rich. I agree, Harley is a great marketing company. They have had their finger on the pulse of American motorcycling for many years, that is why I would not bet against them. They are having a hard time, but they will figure something out. Will I ever buy one? Like any other bike, they have to perform.
good video , some interesting thoughts . i'm surprised to hear there are so many old guys doing adventure touring , i thought those were the guys buying the HD touring bikes . certainly makes this bike seem more of a possible seller . i could care less about adventure bikes and i think this is fugly as hell , but i'm curious to see what else HD will do with this new engine , if it will be the replacement for the Sportster or if it goes the way of the Buell and the Vrod .
If H-D went more retro styling for the upcoming adventure bike I believe it would be a better design from what we have been shown and appeal to more H-D buyers. Heck, they could have did the Evel Knievel edition out the gate and it would sell. If they want to enter a crowded market then go with the best tech on the market. KTM will be launching adaptive cruise control and blind spot monitoring in 2020. H-D needs to one up these established companies to take market share.
Good video. I always buy American whenever possible. I merge that into patriotism, that’s just me. Everyone has their way of supporting their country, especially us riders. I ride a RGU, it was competitive with the Goldwing, Indian and Victory. I have a 2nd bike, KLR650 but it won’t cut it on long trips for comfort. I like the looks of the H-D Pan Am, but at that price I’d have to skip on that. It may be worth it as a primary bike, but not as a 2nd bike. For the money, I’d probably go with a Tenere.
I haven't been able to find anything talking about price. Any idea what this might run? Hard for me to even begin to form an opinion on something until I can see the weight, both loaded up for the trail and the weight missing from my wallet.
Same as posted with Mario. So, lets look at history...why would HD succeed now when Buell was their toe in the water and failed. Then they tried performance in the Vrod, with Porsche engine, failed again. So, Pan America 1250cc, then plan a smaller 950cc a year later. Engines made in India? Already heard rumors of warranty warnings if bike is rode off-road. Not sure if this is a smart move or Harley hunting a successful campaign of new bikes with a 12ga and see what the pellet hits.
I originally had some comments about Buell, but cut it for time. My view is this, yes Harley screwed up with Buell, but what does that have to do with today? Yes, they are going to have a challenge to change the dealer culture, but in the 90s the dealers were selling Harleys like hotcakes so they did not need Buell to make a profit. Now, they are not selling as many bikes, so they should be more motivated to bring different genres and riders into their dealerships. If they dont and they fail, well that is there fault and they deserve it. In the past, Harleys plan was to just continue doing the same thing, but that is no longer working, the market is changing, so they need to change as well. I dont know if their new plan is going to work, but if you listen to Matt Levitich they at least do have a one. Just continuing to do the same thing over and over while your sales continue to decline is business suicide. Time will tell...
Living Off The Slab I’m not a Harley haters, used to have a Vrod, but just don’t see this as a viable option because of price and better options. The plus side, probably one of the only Harley’s you can lean without scraping pipes. If I get a Harley, it will be a Street Glide, but they will need to come down in weight, price and have better features.
I don't think BMW, KTM, Triumph, et al have anything to worry about. Without even considering the looks, price, performance, technical capability I think the biggest challenge is going to be the dealer network. Remember Buell, the dealers had no interest in selling these bikes. They would rather sell you a t-shirt.
Making the cultural shift will be a challenge, but the circumstances in the 90s and 00s were much different. Dealers were selling cruisers like hotcakes and the Buells were just a nuisance to them. Now, the cruisers are not selling as well and there is a financial incentive to attract new buyers into the dealership.
I believe the trend is going towards smaller, lighter ADV bikes like the upcoming 800 Africa Twin and the KTM 790. Good luck to HD, I'm just disappointed they haven't said a thing about the naked street fighter in some time. How is it that Indian could design, build and sell the FTR so quickly, but Harley is still giving us parts bin specials?
The street fighter was on display at same dealer show. Yes manufacturers are now making midsize ADVs like the KTM 790 and Yamaha T7, but those are brand new. Are they selling? I don't think we know yet. There are also the BMW 1250s and Ducati is talking about a bigger Multistrada, Honda may up the size of the Africa Twin at the same time it makes an 800 and KTM is working on an upgraded 1290 with radar and adaptive cruise controll. The big bikes are not going away any time soon.
Nope not interested but then again I'm old...LOL! Just bought a 2019 Electra Glide Standard with a $3000 discount. Just gotta have 2 wheels sitting in the garage!
I agree 100% with you. I follow motorcycling news and with Harley they've always been but of the joke of "old farts riding" since the joke has been about Harley being old I gotta ask. Why must Harley be hated for doing something new? Do I believe the odds are stacked against them? Absolutely and people did the same with the Lexus LFA as it was an "you're not in the market so screw you" attitude. If you hate someone for being narrow minded yet in the same breathe hate them for expanding their mind it's kinda hypocritical. Personally I wish Harley and all companies to be successful as with more competition breeds innovation. Hell Harley might steal the crown as they learnt from Motocross company "Alta" for their livewire project so could also learnt about off-road from them for this.
Yes--we now have a choice. It sounds like they are approaching the ADV sector in the American way: High horse power and toughness, because they are't going to out handle a BMW but they can out power it, and out tough it. All the guff will be wind in HD's sails. The negative response from the traditionalists is what impedes potential buyers because they think it's just a clique and not about machinery. Cruisers dominated during the small town era--but to get that freedom these days you have to get out of the population centers and often off road--that's where the breath of fresh air is. I wish HD well and hope for their success in these new bikes.
The adventure motorcycle bufett is already big wnough for HD to add its own dish. That is a good thing. I would say that the decisive factor that is going to decide it success or not is the MSRP and then of course the quality of rhe product. Competing against established brands from like BMW and KTM means that you have to start getting into the market enough units to start biulding a good reputation of the new product by its own. Competitive price is a key factor to get started because now HD is trying to get into market that is not its traditional one. Looks is subjective, getting stranded in the.middle of no where is quite real.
Anytime any motorcycle manufacturer steps out and does something different, I am all for it. I am excited to see what Harley Davidson does over the next 10 years.
AJourneyOfYourSoul Probably filing for bankruptcy
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Harley is not just a brand, it’s a culture. Offering choices and options just expands the cultural limits. That’s good for the two wheeled society.
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Get real !!
Harley is overweight and overpriced junk !!
Harley is not just a brand name. It is a TYPE of motorcycle. And the stupid pan America POS is not that type. The rebadged Aermacchi bikes that Harley sold in the '50s and '60s failed. The VRod failed. The "Street" failed. Why? Simple. They were not Harleys. Just putting the Harley name on a bike does not make it a Harley. A Harley is a big touring bike, a big cruiser, or a Sportster. That's it. They all use basically the same engine. A long stroke 45 degree single crankpin v-twin that gives them a feel and sound unlike any other motorcycle. The sound and feel are why I ride Harleys. Nobody wants a sport bike, an adventure bike, or a battery powered bike that says Harley on it but is not a real Harley. There are plenty of other brands out there that make stuff like that. Harley needs to stick to making HARLEYS.
Harley Davidson does have some experience with off-road bikes, and even won a Baja 500 back in the day. I even remember a 2 cycle Harley. And don’t forget the Harley Sprint line. Harley Buell made the Ulysses which was an adventure bike. Heavy as a ton but still.....
I’ve been riding Harleys since 1980 and also love dual sports and Adv bikes. I also get tired of people calling HD dealerships boutiques. Harley has a multi billion dollar business just in apparel and accessories. Isn’t the point of a company to make money. Great video!!!
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I’m with you, Craig. I’m glad HD is stepping out of their comfort zone. It will only improve the brand, and motorcycling in general.
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Innovation and competition benefits us all. Good for Harley in stepping out of their comfort zone. I imagine the guys at Klim can't wait for this to come out.
I thought the same thing, and wouldn't it be ironic for Klim to make a Pan America Badlands Pro...since they are owned by Polaris.
Actually a fan of this bike. Little rough on the retina, but overall looks very promising.
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Craig, I deem this your best written review bid ever! Nice job on the writing and presentation. On the HD, the success of the Pan America will not be based on its technical capabilities or add on gadgets but on HD's success in marketing a new bike to a new (to HD) audience. First impression, the crash bars look like something I could have welded up in a few hours in my garage from 3/4" black pipe. Like you, I like that it is different and like that it provides a choice and equally because it starts a new conversation within my favorite part of the market, the adventure bike sector. And if anyone from HD does read this, I second the idea that you give Craig a chance to ride your machine. His 16,000 subs will put great faith in his opinions and thus, so should HD!
Thanks Richard. I have a feeling the after-market community is going o love this bike, so someone will come up with some better crash bars and windscreen, etc...
I just love motorcycles - all motorcycles, and what fits my ass and budget may not fit others.
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Okay, here is my opinion, and I own a Harley so.....the biggest "if" about this bike is going to be the new motor and knowing Harley, they have always been able to produce a solid and dependable V-twin (except for the AMF years) that puts out a lot of torque. Just what an adventure bike needs. So even though "marketing " sells bikes, the future of this adventure bike (and the Streetfighter) will depend on this new motor.
Certainly, it will have to perform well. Maybe not up to KTM standards, but they have to get close.
Adventure bike? I'd say whatever bike you are riding on "your" adventure is an adventure bike. I like that Harley is reaching beyond their comfort zone as I am a motorcycle enthusiast myself and will look at anyone's bike and chat about adventures. Everyone that I have met on the road travelling is about the adventure and loves to talk about it and share experiences, not bash a guy for what he rides or what direction they are riding.
I agree, every bike is an adventure bike!
That is my take as well and the reason my channel is named the way it is.
Adventure bikes are a specific segment.
We connect with other RIDERS sharing the interest of riding. That's enjoyable to add to the ADVENTURE no matter what we ride. Choose your own moto vation.
Just seeing Craig on a Harley would make my day.
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I like it & hope they do well with it!
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Hey Craig, I just wanted to say that as a fellow rider who also appreciates bikes that are unique, that challenge the moto status quo, this was a really good discussion. Very thoughtful and objective. Nice work. Cheers from Alaska!
Subscribed. 👍
Thank you very much!
It's all about 2 wheels. It's what makes you happy. Ive been riding since I was 14. I'm 51 now
I own
2005 250 Honda dirt bike
2014 V rod muscle
2019 CVO ultra limited
And I'm buying this Adventure bike
Because it makes me happy and it's my money and I do wtf I want with it
Every body has an opinion
Most people don't know what they are talking about
Amen!
Young guy on an ADV checking in- I ride my Tiger Explorer and don't own a car. Harley has a shot at winning me over with this thing.
What I'd want to see is a couple things:
-It needs to be easy to wrench on. Not necessarily as much as an Iron 883 or anything, but It shouldn't be an all-day commitment to do work under the tank like it is on my TEX.
-It'd be cool in my opinion to see this enter as a "no bullshit" alternative to the real tech-saturated bikes which are dominating the market. I, for one, don't need or want a TFT dash. I don't mind dealing with a few extra hand switches to control the bits of riding tech I actually do want. The only reason it should ever consider linking to my cell-phone is so I can read my own codes. I don't need the 1000$ premium for the dash, the 800$ for the IMU, or the $300 for integration with my goddamned go-pro (Looking at you, Triumph!) Give me something down-market a little bit.
-That windscreen has got to go. Oh my God is it hideous. I really like the look of the rest of the bike. It's a Harley, though, so perhaps the aftermarket will find a solution.
-Its ok if the motor doesn't make peak horsepower like it's European counterparts. The 140 my Tiger makes is more than adequate. It better make torque, though. Gimme three-figures. I want it to pop up like a dirt bike from hell.
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I own a 1969 Harley Electra Glide and a 2018 KTM 1290 SAR so I like Harleys and ADV bikes. My age is between yours and Mario's although probably closer to yours. I agree with you that Harley should have built a smaller lighter and less expensive ADV bike first to appeal maybe to the younger market and then working their way up as their customer base builds as I stated in Mario's video but disagree with you on the looks don't matter. I like performance in a motorcycle, although the performance between my old Harley and my KTM is quite significant, but the bike has to appeal to me in the looks category or I'm just not interested. Although beauty is in the eye of the beholder and this beholder hopes Harley doesn't stick with, in my opinion, the LEGO prototype.
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Well done Craig. Now we can patiently wait for some press bikes to properly thrash 😂 (or at least dream about it)
Thanks Mario, nice job on your video! Personally, I think that would be an awesome way for them to get the word out. Two generations of riders, two different backgrounds. Both good on camera...come on Harley!!
Yes, I like it as well. We need them to do well. I hope they do.
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I love this new Bike.
Stand behind the beautiful bike so we can see It.
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Thanks for a pensive and insightful video. A year and a half plus a pandemic later, it is still insightful. The virtual launch for Pan America will be on Feb 22, 2021.
Thank You! Glad to see Harley is moving forward with this bike.
Good video Craig. I am a die hard Harley guy but I bought myself a used V Strom 650 this year and I absolutely love it! I really enjoy the new roads it has opened for me. I am excited to see the Pan American and I really do hope in the future they come out with some smaller bikes in this class. I will seriously be looking at one of these if they are good if not I will stay with the V Strom.🤠
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I own a 62fl and a klr650, I'm very interested in this adventure bike.
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Both of you did an excellent review and both have valid points. As a HD rider am glad they are trying new things. They do have a long road ahead. I will be getting into the ADV scene in a few years and like you. I like the option of buying and American bike but it also needs to meet my needs.
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I like the Pan America . I hope it will be available in 2020 as i mid range model. I now own a 2018 electra glide Police M8. I am always in for something new.
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I agree with you. I’m glad Harley is trying other categories of bikes. I’ve had one Harley, lots of Hondas, Yamahas, and Suzukis. I would hope it turns out to be a competitive bike.
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I just think it would have been smarter to start with a smaller, lighter, inexpensive 650/750cc range Dual Sport. But, I really hope this bike performes and sells well.
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I watched the whole video and am impressed with your open mind and serious commentary on this bike. I'm now subscribed.
Thank you very much! Great name!
I love you father .. i learn how to speak english now little bit better ... and i love the bike you talked about ... thank you ... now my writing also good... i love you man 🤗👌😘🇧🇭⚘
Thanks so much!
Completely agree with pretty much everything you said. I am a Harley owner today, want an adventure bike soon to commute, go out and have some fun and be able to do some adventure riding. Of course I want more options and now Harley will be on my list in this segment. I can’t see a downside to having the option. Naysayers are just that, love to be negative just to be negative. When it is released, if it can’t perform, or it’s a great performer, then the market will dictate its success or failure.
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I’m not sure the Pan American will actually make it to market.
The existing big dual sports are loosing ground to the smaller dual sport bike like the smaller Tenere 700.
I’m in my mid 50’s and not in as good of shape as you are Mr. R.
I rode my brothers GS a while back and with its height, it’s just too heavy for me to do any serious of roading or single track adventures.
If I want a touring cruiser, I’ll stick with my Road Glide.
I used to race cross country on a KTM 250 and a 500. After an hour on the brothers GS I admit, I’m not that 15 to 21 year old kid that could fall down and get right back up anymore.
My bones, twisted ankles, knees, elbows and wrists don’t work like they did back then.
So now I’m looking for a lighter bike to do the off road adventures like a KLR 650 or maybe even smaller.
I’ll be rigging my Ram 2500 up and slightly modifying it in to a conservative overland vehicle that I can carry one bike on the front and one on the back with roof top tents, awnings and full camping gear needed to stay out for weeks at a time.
Once to camp, we will Unload the bikes and hang for a day or two riding the trails, then pack up and head out again.
I would have been a Pan American buyer because I am such a Harley enthusiast, but after riding one of the big dual sports and realizing, I am not the rider I once was, I’m going to spend the $20-$25k I would have spent on the Pan Am and go a complete different direction.
Just like the Live Wire, the Pan Am is going to go to a niche market of guys and or gals that realize the Harley may not be as good of a bike as some of the others, but by god it’s a Harley.
I’ve road Harley’s for 30 years and that’s the bike that going to take up the most spots in my shed.
Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your input. As on owner of a big ADV, I am not interested in single track. I have done it and my skill level is not high enough. Dirt and gravel roads are great but as you said the hard core stuff is better done on a smaller bike. However, myself and the vast majority of my friends who ride the big ADV bikes ride them as touring bikes that are capable of taking on those dirt and gravel roads, not as big dirt bikes. The numbers I have seen suggest that 80 % of them will never see the dirt. It remains to be seen how many HD riders are adventure curious, but there are several folks responding to this video who are. Time will tell...
last year I went from Charleston, SC out to Vegas.. all the way out I would say 90% of the bikes I saw were adventure bikes. The problem with HD is they out price themselves, so as long as they keep the price inline with other adventure bikes they'll sell them.
Yes I'm an HD dude I ride a 2019 Ultra Limited I've had this one since March 30th and already have 12,500 miles on it. Would I buy an adventure bike whether HD or another brand, no, but that is me.
Interesting. I still see mostly cruisers and a lot more trikes, but ADV bikes are getting more and more popular. Still mostly us old guys out there traveling though.
@@LivingOffTheSlab Now this year I saw less adv bikes and more cruisers, maybe it was the time of the year. Last year it was May and this year it was July. Plus this year I did more of the northern rocky mountain states.
I have to go with your opion on this. HD has a back ground longer than most in racing . My thoughts come out with this bike in the higher price range then refine refine refine. Thenn come out with a 650 or 750 that competes with the klr or the dr, under ten grand Hd will make some folks to start sweating with there adv bikes then , It will be interesting.
Ron
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Love the Pan America.
I really like the idea of a Harley ADV bike. I've had both a Vstrom 1000 and a Super Tenere. I can't afford a new bike but would certainly consider picking up a used one in a few years.
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Good video!. one of my favorite bikes was a BUELL Ulysses. It was more like 85% Road and 15% light off road..but it's such an excellent bike to be on. So maybe the new Harley has learned something from Buell and some of the characteristics of the buell...and I've have 30+ bikes.
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Harley has a lot of history in racing and off highway. There were no highways when they started making bikes. The first race was right after the second one was built.
So my 2 cents. Dealers don't appear interested. They want to get their hands on the Street Fighter and the next generation Sportster. They know how to sell road bikes and generate revenue from optional parts and service. ADV's will collect dust in a dark corner of the dealerships. ADV's will only play a small part in a H-D's dealers revenue stream and sales will only put minimal effort into moving the line. Dealers can move road bikes with the new water cooled engine and especially the 975cc bikes since this is where the market action is happening. A lot of great bikes (like Buell) die on the sales floor.
We shall see...
@@LivingOffTheSlab It would be great if you and Mario could meet at one of the Winter bike shows and do a join video reviewing bikes and discussing the state of the AVD market and motorcycling in general. That would be quite informative.
@@geneclarke2205, Thanks that would be interesting. The NY IMS is coming up in a few months.
I loved your comments and views! I ride a 2015 Harley Ultra Limited Low, I have ridden that bike from Denver to and around Alaska including the entire Alaska Highway. It performed well in all sorts of situations and as I’m sure you know camping especially in Alaska and the Yukon are pretty much an off road experience. At that time I was not able to buy a second bike for the trip but would not have changed a thing. BUT I did become interested in adding an adventure bike to my inventory and I would welcome it to be a Harley (doesn’t have to be but it would be good with me). I agree with your comments and appreciate your making this video. I also subscribe to Two Wheel Rider so I will check out his video as well.
Thanks so much! When you get down to it, all bikes are adventure bikes and every ride an adventure. Harleys were by far the most common bike on the Alaska Highway and I think based on you comments as well as others, there are quite a few people that would be in interested in this bike, price and performance dependent of course.
Well see when it comes into production
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I totally agree with all your points. While I haven't been following the chatter on the pan american, it doesn't surprise me that the haters have been out in force. A lot of people like to hate on Harley for some reason. I did a little off the cuff motovlog on that a year or two ago. I hope they sell the heck out of that thing.
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I agree with you 100% Craig.I like the Pan America,just wish it were shaft drive.That being said, the Super Tenere fits the bill for me.
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Living Off The Slab 👍
Excellent points Craig. As you said, I would probably never buy one of these but its nice to have this option from an American company.
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Nice video. being of the same generation I agree with you about the age when it comes to Large Adventure Bikes. My son who is 26 rides a 1090 Adventure R. He has spent a lot of time off-pavement on three of the BDR's since he bought it two years ago. The younger guys he rides with are riding KTM 690s and DR650's. If I had the funds there would be a 1250 GS or a 1290 SA in my garage. Because I didn't want to make payments on a Motorcycle I bought a new V-Strom 650. Something I could pay cash for. My adventures are on tarmac these days and it works great for that. I can see a larger adventure bike in my future and will look at the Pan-American. If they can get the price in the $17000 to $23000 and keep the weight below 550 lbs wet I think they have a chance. Keep up the great videos.
Thank you! I too hope Harley can bring the bike in at those numbers. Ride safe!
People have been riding Harley's off road since their inception. I'm looking forward to seeing this bike in real use. I'm not a H-D fan, but they do have their niche.
Me too thanks!
I agree with you on several points. Even though I ride a V-STROM I like the idea of having the option of buying an American made adv bike. For a couple of the same reasons I ride a V-Strom, I will probably not buy the Harley... price and weight. However, as you've pointed out... we don't know for sure what the bike will be in the end. Wouldn't It be great if it hit the ground at 500 lbs and a $15,000 price point? This old guy would consider buying it. Question, do you think it'll be belt drive? Difficult to imagine that working well off road.
My understanding is that it is chain driven. I would imagine that 500 pounds is too much to ask for, but hopefully under 600 and I have seen price estimates all over the place. We will just have to wait and see. Thanks!
Well spoken Sir! Not a huge fan of Harley Davidson but I would like to try that bike out.
Thanks! I hope that will the new direction, they follow-through with this bike.
I love it. Just think how many dealerships there are to support this bike and I'm talking about not just the good ole USA but all over the world.
Yep, should be a big plus.
Hope Harley sells a ton of those. Hey Craig regarding your choosing a new bike I strongly suggest you get a goldwing, it's the best one to travel two up. Great videos keep em coming
Thanks for the suggestion.
Great video as usual! I actually like the looks of the bike and I’m glad Harley is taking a chance on it. Couple of concerns I have though, it’s probably going to weight 750lbs which isn’t great for off road riding and will cost $25k because Harley will make you pay dearly for the new technology they’re adding to the bike. That said I hope I’m wrong because I’d like to see Harley remain successful over the long run!
I am sure it will cost something in that range, but so does the GS. If it goes 750 though, it will be done. It needs to be around the 600 mark, hopefully less. Thanks!
Craig, some great talking points and couldn't agree more its great to have a domestic option in the ADV category. I'm just having a hard time getting past the front end and that head light. Would win hands down in a Lost in Space robot look-a-like contest...Danger Will Robinson...Danger!! PS. You came across three young guys on your 60 ride. The two you mentioned + Me....lol
Well you younger than me for sure...lol.
If Harley can start with a clean slate maybe they can come up with a viable competitor. Maybe this would bring some much needed new blood into the Harley customer base. It will be fun to follow the bike as different people ride and review it.
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I’m already planning on buying one. I currently own a Dyna Switchback and a Buell S1. I’m just hoping that it isn’t super tall like every other adv bike. It sucks that all good adv’s are made for tall people.
It will interesting to see the finished product. Thanks!
I like the looks of it. It has a interesting styling. Hopefully it’s successful. I would most likely never buy a Harley cruiser. However, I would consider something along these lines. I wish Indian would get in on the ADV market as well.
It’s only a matter of time before I buy an ADV bike. I’ve been waiting for a refresh on the Super Tenere, to see what improvements they come up with. But now I’ve got more to look forward to with Harley.
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I am a harley rider, old guy like you and i would love to get a second bike in the next year or two har ley has a big network around the world think service ,parts if the pan american works out that is a big plus, they have been doing flat track and up hill races for a lot of years , so lets see what comes out.
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I’m not into adventure bikes. But this is going to be interesting to see how it turns out. HD has to do something different for sure. Stay safe Craig.😎
Thank you!
Hopefully Indian responds with an ADV version of their FTR
I hear it is in the works.
Great video, the bike looks very different from anything else and that's good, a point not mentioned is the music coming from the exhaust, which in my book is one of the most important things! I've been riding GSAs for over 10 years but might consider that particular HD if it sounds right! 👍🏻
Interesting, I had not thought about the exhaust note. I guess I am not looking for a loud rumble on my ADV bike, I actually prefer quiet, especially when riding on a nice dirt road.
@@LivingOffTheSlab In London traffic, as in anywhere busy, pipes music can be a genuine safety feature! (...and everyone loves a Yoshimura while using a quickshifter in a tunnel...)
After seeing a pro rider on the official Harley video advert on this I can say that the bike looks fairly nimble and powerful. The specifications seem to support this. But remember, they've done this before with Aerramacchi in the 1970's (remember the 125 and 250 enduros?) This is a compelling foray once again into that sector. But, how compelling is still anyone's guess. I'm about your age, although I've been told I look much younger. And, I can wheelie forever. Harley- I'm your demo guy. Drop me a line, let's kick some dirt.
We shall see if they can get it right this time. I too would not mind taking it for a ride.
Moto Guzzi was, for the most part, in the same boat as Harley, jumping into the ADV world. Turns out the V85 is a great success. I hope it works out for Harley. Style is in the eye of the beholder. Im OK with the styling of the P/A except for the early Cylon looking headlight.
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Any new motorcycle appearing on the market is a good thing. We all ride various type's of machines, and I'm sure that someone will want one. Adventure bikes are purely functional, not pretty in the least. I say give Harley a fighting chance to present their new machine and in the end, the sales figures will determine if it was the right decision to move into the adventure market. More choice for more riders!!
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looks much tighter and lighter than an r1250gs, multistrada and super tenere. My bet is that it's going to weigh around 240kg with a full tank and centerstand. Furthermore, it has proper linkage suspension in the rear and seems to have decent ground clearance. I would like to see one with a one piece seat, a shorter windscreen and maybe a high fender.
It will be interesting to see the final specs, and if course give it a ride.
At my age and place in riding I'm starting to consider adventure bike as my next purchase. If I buy one, I expect to use it to the fullest. My biggest question would be reliability. Being new, unproven and made by a company that has no known experience with adventure type bikes. Not to mention HD's less than stellar service and reliability record...... I'd have some SERIOUS questions and apprehensions about the Pan-American's ability to go the distance and be kept going in harsh conditions and over the long term.
All fair questions that remain to be answered.
I’m liking the design. LED headlights are only just now coming on full swing and I think that form can follow this new compact lighting function which Harley seems to have done. It looks like and Harley married to an adventure sport type bike. If they hit 18 to 25 and 130 ponies they are in IMHO
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Harley should make A flat tracker style & a scrambler style bike , they can still keep the classic old range, step outside the box Harley just take a look at triumph how they have evolved from the old days
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I'd have to ride it..I bought my 2015 1290 Super Adventure after I rode it. Prior to that I had a pic of the Ducati 1200 Grand Terismo on my fridge after riding it, before that i was thinking I wanted the BMW. So again I'd have to ride it
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Having watched Long Way Round, and Long Way Down...I would submit that a bigger machine is the opposite way to go in the current market. They got wore out fast lifting a big heavy machine, and seeing things like the KLR 650 and other smaller machines seems like the smart way to go. I'm not a fan trying to pick up a big machine loaded down with gear for a long ride.
Playing devils advocate, how many people are riding "adventure bikes" as true off-road or RTW bikes? I suspect that number is really small. Most people are using them as touring bikes and the larger machines work better for carrying loads and traveling on tarmac. I agree that smaller bikes are better for off road riding, but that is not what most people are doing and we like bigger and more power. Why did BMW up the boxer to 1250 and Honda is talking about a bigger Africa Twin and Ducati about a bigger Multistrada. These bikes are were the profit is.
@@LivingOffTheSlab I would suspect you are dead on point there. I am part of an African Twin forum...and the percentage of riders using them as designed for serious off road work appears to be low double to high single digits.
ADV bikes are multipurpose bikes that go a lot of places. Glad Harley is moving in this direction. It's about time. Prolly not going to sell my GS unless this bike can match it's performance at a lower price. I doubt it'll be a lower price.
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The problem with not having a history in this segment is that they have to learn all the things the others already know. It's not as easy as just build an adventure motorcycle.
So Guzzi should not have made the V85TT? No manufacturer should ever branch out from what it has historically done? People with the know can be hired and what others have done is not a secret. All you have to do is buy a bike and take a look.
I'm too short to ride Any of the ADV bikes. I'd need a step stool to get on or off. But, It's good to see H-D departing from their one market cruiser lines, and try to reach out. What interests me is the design of the new engines for this and the Street fighter, and the 1250 Custom. Maybe in the future I'll be able to get a liquid cooled, DOHC, Euro5 compliant, engine in a small cruiser chassis from an American manufacturer. The new 975 would make a great replacement for the current Sportster, and there's no reason the new 1250 couldn't power a Dyna/Softail type chassis. The one thing they'll need will be reliability to match your new 1600 or some of the other competition.
Some of these bikes are pretty tall. My buddy Peter is about 5'6" and he was able to lower his Tiger 800 to work for him.
I am a function over form guy too and like you, have never been an HD fanboy. Having said that, I think all adventure bikes are ugly.and , in my opinion, the Harley is more interesting as far as looks than the gangly mainstream ADV offerings.
Harley can't win. No matter what they do , they will be critiqued to death. I';m glad to see them do something different. They are so bound by "what a Harley should look like" that it is literally killing them.
They just released the 2020 HD's and they look exactly like the HDs from 2 decades ago.
Their greatest mistake to date imho is their electric bike at $30K . It will be a failure in sales.
You are correct, they will always be criticized no matter what they do. They are just looking at the changing market and trying to adapt. We have a tendency to look at things as they have been in the past and think they will always be that way. Companies like Harley have to responded to today and at the same time try to predict the future. I agree too that the Live Wire is way overpriced, but I also think it is a lost leader, proof of concept bike. It is meant to introduce the technology as the smaller vehicles are being developed. Did you see the Harley, ebikes?
i haven't seen the ebikes yet.
Your point about performance is well made, alas if there is any criticism that could be leveled at HD it's that they can never make a bike that will do anything but go in a straight line along a concrete road. I think HD is making a big mistake going up against BMW- seems obvious to me that they want to lock horns with Bavaria (1250cc... cc, not cubes!). I look forward to this bike, I really do, maybe it'll be a really great mile eater and just "OK" on a fire track, no one is really expecting it to place at the next Dakar ;-)
If it can't turn, that would be a problem...LOL. I am sure there will be comparisons with the GS, we shall see how it does. As long as it is respectable...
Well said Craig, now like you I will not buy this bike but I am not their consumer demographic. I like my V-Strom and will stick with it for some years to come. But I do agree with some of what you said.
Thanks!
Not a HD fan but I like the design! But what is the price??
We do not know yet. Probably will be released next year sometime.
I’d be curious to see how well that PanAm could take a fall. That tank looks like its gonna take a beating.
Fair point, but my Tenere's tank would get wacked if it hit just right. I am sure someone will come up with better crash protection.
@@LivingOffTheSlab More aggressive crash bar options would definitely help keep that generous looking tank safe. Might help the look too.
I love it. about time they made a fully liquid cooled engine. I want one but cant afford one. I'll just drive my Softail for another ten years and hope I can find a used one till then I still have my Honda crf 250 for off road use. But there's nothing like a good old v twin sound. Maby I can convert a 1200 Sportster for off road? Any one done it before?
I am sure someone has. Thanks!
I we watched Mario video also, so here is my 2 cents.
A Harley is a Harley is a Harley...
Harley Davidson are geniuses at marketing and advertising. If you purchase a Harley, most likely you will buy a Harley jacket, shirt, boots, helmet, underwear, socks , house ware etc. In this case, its obvious that looks and top performance doesn't matter to Harley. They are entering the market because they know that they can depend on their loyal costumers purchasing it just because...
Harley also know that they can convenience anyone thinking about an ADV bike, to purchase the Pan-America because its an "American" made bike. (Hence the name). Harley track record for its reliability will never be a factor.
We are not in the adv market, but if I (Rich) was the Harley will be my choice...NOT!
Great video collaboration.
Thanks Rich. I agree, Harley is a great marketing company. They have had their finger on the pulse of American motorcycling for many years, that is why I would not bet against them. They are having a hard time, but they will figure something out. Will I ever buy one? Like any other bike, they have to perform.
@@LivingOffTheSlab Exactly...I wouldn't bet against them either.
I like the industrial style
Yeah, it is different.
good video , some interesting thoughts . i'm surprised to hear there are so many old guys doing adventure touring , i thought those were the guys buying the HD touring bikes . certainly makes this bike seem more of a possible seller .
i could care less about adventure bikes and i think this is fugly as hell , but i'm curious to see what else HD will do with this new engine , if it will be the replacement for the Sportster or if it goes the way of the Buell and the Vrod .
Thanks!
If H-D went more retro styling for the upcoming adventure bike I believe it would be a better design from what we have been shown and appeal to more H-D buyers. Heck, they could have did the Evel Knievel edition out the gate and it would sell. If they want to enter a crowded market then go with the best tech on the market. KTM will be launching adaptive cruise control and blind spot monitoring in 2020. H-D needs to one up these established companies to take market share.
I agree, they will have to offer all the bells and whistles and that will drive price up...unfortunately.
Good video. I always buy American whenever possible. I merge that into patriotism, that’s just me. Everyone has their way of supporting their country, especially us riders. I ride a RGU, it was competitive with the Goldwing, Indian and Victory. I have a 2nd bike, KLR650 but it won’t cut it on long trips for comfort. I like the looks of the H-D Pan Am, but at that price I’d have to skip on that. It may be worth it as a primary bike, but not as a 2nd bike. For the money, I’d probably go with a Tenere.
I hear you, price was a factor for me as well. Thanks!
I haven't been able to find anything talking about price. Any idea what this might run? Hard for me to even begin to form an opinion on something until I can see the weight, both loaded up for the trail and the weight missing from my wallet.
No, just rumors at this point.
@@LivingOffTheSlab i'll keep looking. If they are serious about entering the market that information should be out very soon. Thanks for the feedback.
@@baltsosser , Once they release it I am sure the information will be available.
Same as posted with Mario. So, lets look at history...why would HD succeed now when Buell was their toe in the water and failed. Then they tried performance in the Vrod, with Porsche engine, failed again. So, Pan America 1250cc, then plan a smaller 950cc a year later. Engines made in India? Already heard rumors of warranty warnings if bike is rode off-road. Not sure if this is a smart move or Harley hunting a successful campaign of new bikes with a 12ga and see what the pellet hits.
I originally had some comments about Buell, but cut it for time. My view is this, yes Harley screwed up with Buell, but what does that have to do with today? Yes, they are going to have a challenge to change the dealer culture, but in the 90s the dealers were selling Harleys like hotcakes so they did not need Buell to make a profit. Now, they are not selling as many bikes, so they should be more motivated to bring different genres and riders into their dealerships. If they dont and they fail, well that is there fault and they deserve it. In the past, Harleys plan was to just continue doing the same thing, but that is no longer working, the market is changing, so they need to change as well. I dont know if their new plan is going to work, but if you listen to Matt Levitich they at least do have a one. Just continuing to do the same thing over and over while your sales continue to decline is business suicide. Time will tell...
Living Off The Slab I’m not a Harley haters, used to have a Vrod, but just don’t see this as a viable option because of price and better options. The plus side, probably one of the only Harley’s you can lean without scraping pipes. If I get a Harley, it will be a Street Glide, but they will need to come down in weight, price and have better features.
I like it, I just wish they would have made it shaft drive.Enter the Super Tenere.
That would have been nice.
Nice video. Harley finally apologizes for killing the Buell Ulysses. I was impressed with that bike.
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What’s next from Harley ? An electric motorcycle ????? 🤦🏻♂️😁😂. Imagine that !!! Good work Craig !
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I’m buying one regardless. If it’s good I’ll have one, if it flops it will be rare in 10 years and I’ll have one.
Good idea, thanks!
I don't think BMW, KTM, Triumph, et al have anything to worry about. Without even considering the looks, price, performance, technical capability I think the biggest challenge is going to be the dealer network. Remember Buell, the dealers had no interest in selling these bikes. They would rather sell you a t-shirt.
Making the cultural shift will be a challenge, but the circumstances in the 90s and 00s were much different. Dealers were selling cruisers like hotcakes and the Buells were just a nuisance to them. Now, the cruisers are not selling as well and there is a financial incentive to attract new buyers into the dealership.
Who has the most dealership's in USA? Think about that.
Much better than upgrade the ultra limited to the advenger bike.
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Ride it? Test it? Buy it? Hell I would settle for a picture of the left side of the damn thing. Is it only a 50% mock-up?
Here you can see some of the right side. ua-cam.com/video/jHWb3AnznY4/v-deo.html
Can't wait to see it!
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I believe the trend is going towards smaller, lighter ADV bikes like the upcoming 800 Africa Twin and the KTM 790. Good luck to HD, I'm just disappointed they haven't said a thing about the naked street fighter in some time. How is it that Indian could design, build and sell the FTR so quickly, but Harley is still giving us parts bin specials?
The street fighter was on display at same dealer show. Yes manufacturers are now making midsize ADVs like the KTM 790 and Yamaha T7, but those are brand new. Are they selling? I don't think we know yet. There are also the BMW 1250s and Ducati is talking about a bigger Multistrada, Honda may up the size of the Africa Twin at the same time it makes an 800 and KTM is working on an upgraded 1290 with radar and adaptive cruise controll. The big bikes are not going away any time soon.
The fat head 45 was an off road bike in the 40s. Where was ktm, honda, Kawasaki, or Yamaha?
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Nope not interested but then again I'm old...LOL! Just bought a 2019 Electra Glide Standard with a $3000 discount. Just gotta have 2 wheels sitting in the garage!
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Love it and buying it.
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Harley made a great adventure bike during ww2 and we thank them for it
First American dirt bike
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We’ll see....
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I agree 100% with you. I follow motorcycling news and with Harley they've always been but of the joke of "old farts riding" since the joke has been about Harley being old I gotta ask. Why must Harley be hated for doing something new? Do I believe the odds are stacked against them? Absolutely and people did the same with the Lexus LFA as it was an "you're not in the market so screw you" attitude. If you hate someone for being narrow minded yet in the same breathe hate them for expanding their mind it's kinda hypocritical. Personally I wish Harley and all companies to be successful as with more competition breeds innovation. Hell Harley might steal the crown as they learnt from Motocross company "Alta" for their livewire project so could also learnt about off-road from them for this.
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I love the bike it could be a tad bit heavy but I would really love to try it out test ride
Ultimately if it has two wheels I love it
We shall see what happens with the restructuring that is going one...Hope it still happens.
Yes--we now have a choice. It sounds like they are approaching the ADV sector in the American way: High horse power and toughness, because they are't going to out handle a BMW but they can out power it, and out tough it. All the guff will be wind in HD's sails. The negative response from the traditionalists is what impedes potential buyers because they think it's just a clique and not about machinery. Cruisers dominated during the small town era--but to get that freedom these days you have to get out of the population centers and often off road--that's where the breath of fresh air is. I wish HD well and hope for their success in these new bikes.
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The adventure motorcycle bufett is already big wnough for HD to add its own dish. That is a good thing. I would say that the decisive factor that is going to decide it success or not is the MSRP and then of course the quality of rhe product. Competing against established brands from like BMW and KTM means that you have to start getting into the market enough units to start biulding a good reputation of the new product by its own. Competitive price is a key factor to get started because now HD is trying to get into market that is not its traditional one. Looks is subjective, getting stranded in the.middle of no where is quite real.
For sure they will have to prove themselves against some stout competition. I hope they do, as choice is good for we consumers.
I wouldn't buy one but I applaud HD for thinking outside the box
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