Kite Altitude World Record Attempts 2011
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- Опубліковано 14 лис 2011
- The latest in a series of attempts to break the World altitude record for a single kite by a team of enthusiasts from Sydney Australia. This is the 4th in a series of videos of their high flying at Cable Downs, a 50,000 acre sheep station in Western NSW, Australia.
- Наука та технологія
Very interesting. Just getting into kite flying but can't see me breaking any records. I want to use the kite as a sky hook for lifing ham antennas and video cameras. Here in the UK we are restricted to a 200ft ceiling.
Thanks for posting this.
Sandy
The line is made from braided Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene micro fibers. The most common brands for these fibers are Dyneema and Spectra. We use hollow braids which makes it easier to splice joins. I have Spectra from Innotex USA, Dyneema from Amika in Taiwan, Cousin-Trestec, France; and Jeely, China. My lines are in bulk lots in the range 140 - 700 lb with most in the range 180 - 300 lb.
GPS telemetry, computers, electronic motor control and log range cell phones help a lot.
Yes. Inaccuracy is inaccuracy regardless of whom is responsible for it or claims it to be acceptable. To answer your previous question, that is why I do not intend to rely on the mathematical approach for my next attempt. I've got some pretty spiff mathematical whizzes helping me, but even their skills are no match for the variables unseen at ground level that can lead to an inaccurate result.
How would you know how far away the freighter is from you and the kite simultaneously? Also you would need to know the lens magnification and optical characteristics. The camera could be vertical above the vessel or at a low angle but the straight line distance the same. If it were 10,000 ft directly above the vessel then perhaps you could measure the scale of the vessel in the image. Theodolites can do this (which we use from time to time) but these are very precise instruments.
For general kite flying, braided Dacron is cheaper and more practical to handle. Dyneema/Spectra is very thin and slippery. It is used by stunt kite flyers because of low stretch, low drag and it's ability to wrap around itself during maneuvers and not bind. Up to 2,000 ft, Dacron is OK but beyond that it's weight and air drag will increasingly restrict altitude. Keep in mind there are regulations restricting kite altitude in most countries.
No, not in Europe. U.S. I wish I had a camera on board for that flight! Here on the shores of Lake Erie is very photogenic from the air! Lots of land marks and the occasional freighter to put my concept to the test. A freighter would be perfect, Boat Nerd lists all up and downbound vessels in real time so getting the specs for the vessel in a pic would be very easy, from there it would be only a matter of accurately measuring the vessel and determining scale which would yield vertical distance
Good video! I did not realize that there was such a thing as a kite altitude record.
I once flew a couple of stacked Flexifoil Super 10's to 900+ feet. I had to layout the lines on a sports field beforehand. Launching it was interesting. Huge delay in steering response. It barely lunched. When it started to climb, it dragged me along the ground, ski style in the mud for about half that length before reaching zenith. Landing it presented its own problems. Diving the kite produced so much pull that it could have pulled me into the next county. So I had to walk into the McDonald's carpark adjacent to the field to allow myself more room for the dive while running at wind speed towards it so it wouldn't pull so much.
At 10,000 ft there are often clouds below obscuring the ground. The higher the kite goes, the greater chance of clouds obscuring the ground. It is why we have abandoned theodolites to measure altitude, that is, clouds obscuring the kite. What evidence do you have that GPS is inaccurate? It is well known by who? How accurate is the Global Positioning System for position and altitude. How accurate are barometric altimeters? What do aircraft, land and mining surveyors, and the military use?
By comparing landmarks in the images taken at altitude to known dimensions a reasonably accurate altitude should be able to be determined.
How did you measure the kite angle relative to the horizontal? What device did you use? What is the accuracy of this device? Who verified? How much line sag was their? How did you measure it? Did you measure the line angle from your position? How did you measure the line released or did you rely on the manufacturers product label? Did you calculate the difference between the straight line distance to the kite and the line out? What is your line type and diameter?
These videos are mine. They are composites and edits of footage and images taken on my altitude record attempts with my team. I composed them, I uploaded them. Roger and Michael took most of the footage. My website has more detailed information. Google Kite Site and follow the link at the bottom of the home page. I started the altitude record program in 2003 and have flown big kites to high altitude in 6 series of attempts from 2005 to 2011. We missed 2006 and 2008.
Could you explain this photographic method in more detail? You had an on board camera? Are you in Europe? You could discuss your attempts with Jesse Gerenson who is doing a similar thing to you. However, we both use GPS recording with our team using radio telemetry in real time and a GPS data logger and Jesse recording with a GPS data logger. Jesse has a UA-cam video so search Gerenson kite record.
I gave the angle of the kite relative to my position, the line length, all weights, wind speed, etc. to friends capable of performing the calculations, and they did all of the math and checked each other's work. Good enough for hobbiest, but my next flight will carry a digital camera with a fixed lens calibrated to a scale and stripped of every last bit of unnecessary weight.
How about cloud?
Did you measure the kite elevation in degrees? Did you measure the line angle in degrees. Did you calculate the line catenary and straight line distance to the kite? It seems that you measured the kites elevation at 49 degrees then used a trig calculation to derive your altitude of 11,320.89 ft. How did you measure the kite elevation with such a degree of precision? Are you sure it was that exact angle 49 degrees? How much was your line and where did you buy it?
This is of course overly simplified, but unlike altimeters is unaffected by weather and has the potential of providing far more accurate results. An accurate multi-axis inclinometer (angle correction will be included in the software when it is complete) would provide a means of correction using simple mathematics. Altimeters and GPS are well known to have accuracy issues some more significant than others, my goal is to develop a higher precision methodology confirmable for determining altitude.
I've submitted the idea to a software developer friend of mine with the request that he create me a program that calibrates by using a photograph of a rule, and the the user inputting the distance required. You take your aerial pics, select the object of a known dimension and input that into the appropriate text box, the software uses known dimensions to calculate the number of pixels it would take at the calibrated distance and the pixels the object occupies in the pic then outputs distance.
What about cloud?
What weight is the line?
Approximately 3,800 grams/10,000 metres. The diameter is 0.8 mm and has a specific gravity of 0.97 so it will float on water.
Providing there is no intervening clouds, haze or mist. How would you support a timed camera with the required battery on a $2 plastic kite of 3 1/2 ft span? Why not use the same method of measuring altitude that you used to fly the $2 kite to the claimed 11,320 ft? I'll have to hire you to conduct my record attempts as I think you should be able to fly our 20 ft kites to 40,000 ft. I have 50 km of the thinnest, strongest and most advanced line in the world.
Why dink with a timer? It's far easier to shoot the entire time the kite's aloft. Which I do fairly frequently. As far as hoping for a large enough landmark of known dimensions, there are plenty out there, buildings, parking lots, vineyards and fields can be used by using the roads that subdivide them as boundaries. Using a camera with a fixed ratio (they're actually very common) and investing minimal effort to determine how the number of pixels changes over distance for an image.
What about clouds?
What are the specs for the line the 42 inch kite was flying on? What did you wind the line onto? Winding in the line always takes forever. With my small kites I use a modified TeleMini altimeter and it weights 7 grams with battery. Your line out to altitude ratio seems reasonable, in great conditions I flew one to 2018m with 3000m of line out.
What would be the accuracy of your photographic method for determining altitude? Is there any method that would be absolutely accurate, that is, zero error? What about the clouds? I'll put your assertion that no permit is required to the FAA. Back to the original post. How did you accurately measure the kite angle with zero error? Did you incorporate the line sag/deflection into the calculation for altitude? What type of line did you use? What brand of kite did you use? You used binoculars?
There has got to be an easier way than these comment boxes. I keep running out of text.
How did you know the winds speed at various altitudes?
To capture an image vertically down to a ship you would need to have a timer that actuates a camera or one with an integrated function. You would then need to be able to fly your kite vertically over the ship at the time the maximum height was reached and hope the camera actuated at that very moment. If the camera was not aimed straight down but at some other angle such as straight down the line toward you holding the reel then a ship would not be in view unless docked close to your launch point
What line did you use?
8 Hours!!! That's insane! Why the heck does it take you 8 hours? Hell, I was only half an hour in by the time I could no longer locate the kite without my binoculars! Dang thing kept taking line like there was no tomorow....now getting it reeled back in was another story that took forever, had the clutch set just a bit below breaking strength and it kept getting gusts and taking line back out.
How did you measure your altitude?
Hey, don't dismiss the cheapy plastic "dime store delta" kites. Using 5000 yards of line I got my 42 inch span $2 delta to 11320.89 feet or 2.1 miles up....took forever to reel the nearly three miles of line back in :P
I have an interval timer and I have taken numerous images from my kites. It can be set for recurrent actuation from intervals of 1 second to 1 hour. For a flight to record altitude the kite may take as much as 8 hours to reach it's maximum. I don't carry on a camera and battery pack on record attempts because the weight, affects the max altitude. Any battery powered devices must be capable of lasting for the duration. have you got permission from the FAA to fly a kite above 500 feet?
Did you get water running down the line. I flew a kite so high with no clouds in sight but still water came down the line . No idea how high the kite was but when it crashed the string was more then 5 miles long
+bill739123 No. We fly these high altitudes in semi arid, relatively warm and low humidity conditions. Perhaps if we flew in cool, humid conditions then we may get condensation. Even if there was water condensing on the line at higher altitudes, by the time it ran down to lower, warmer air, the water would evaporate. How did you measure the length of the string? What type of string was it? What was the breaking strength of the line? What sort of kite was it? How big was the kite? What was the approximate line angle at the reel? Did you track the kite with binoculars or telescope? If you tracked the kite visually, approximately what was the kites angle of elevation? How did you retrieve the kite line on the ground? 5 miles, that's about 8 km. A lot of line to wind in!
Have you used altimeters and GPS? How did you conclude they have problems with accuracy? Why does the Federation Internationale Aeronautique specify GPS and barometric altimetry as their official method of measurement. They are the body that records, defines and judges aircraft records including full size aircraft, balloons and model aircraft. Are you challenging the methods used by this highly regarded organization?
There are much better ways of measuring kite altitude. GPS data loggers are very light, affordable and can be carried by a small kite. The camera scale method seems cumbersome and unworkable. Sure, it was used in the second world war and subsequent defense operations but they were flying directly over targets at known altitudes using sophisticated cameras with hundreds of personnel to analyse data with scale photo viewers.
Go to the Holux web site.
You do need permission from the FAA. Part 101
here are extracts from the regulations:
Sub part A applies to kites above 5lb.
Sub part B applies to any kite.
(1) No flight more than 150 feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before beginning the flight notice is given to the FAA
(2) No flight less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
(3) No flight more than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
If you needed to locate the kite with binoculars, how did you measure the kite angle from your position to a fraction of a degree? Our flight took 10.5 hours. 8 hours to get it to over 14,000 ft with 2 low wind zones to negotiate and 2.5 hours to reel in over 8 km or 26,000 ft of line. Obviously my wind conditions were different to yours. There is no readily available and affordable method of measuring altitude that is accurate to the degree you seem to expect. Laser may get close to sub 10 cm.
@Cade Heinberg Where is your evidence? Where is your Guinness certification? You can claim anything you want but you need proof.
Why do you claim that your flight to 11,320.89 ft with a $2 kite was accurate when you used some not so accurate methods to determine height? How will you deal with clouds or poor visibility? What about battery life and temperature effects. How will a small kite support the weight of a camera. FAA permit? What organization will you register you record with? What are the requirements for verifying a record. What flying line did you use? Did you retrieve the kite & how long did it take?
No. No permission from the FAA, Don't need it according to their regulations, thanks to the size and weight of my rig. Nor am I near enough to any airports or commercial flight paths to bother with it or be bothered for it.
Google it.
I just don't think you should dismiss GPS and barometric altitude measurements as inaccurate and by inference the inventors and highly regarded organizations that use them. It's one unqualified voice against thousands and thousands of experts and clearly GPS is very accurate for our purpose. GPS show fluctuations when satellites signals are blocked but we usually have 9 satellites and the ground datum verified by a mining surveyor is within 2 meters of gps.
to the vessel.
Our team broke the World record with a flight to 16,009 ft in 2014. This achievement has been recognised by Guinness World Record, The Australian Book Of records, the American Kitefliers Association and the Australian Kitefliers Society. See our 2014 UA-cam video.
how much time it will take to retrieve the kite ?
About 4 hours to retrieve 12,400 metres of line at an average of 3,100 metres per hour.
Cool
Watched all your attempts , interesting must say. I was so proud I got my $1.25 up to 800 feet :) Amazing equipment you use I must say. What line do you use and where to buy it please send me a PM :)