"Resting on rotten timbers" captures it all. Personal, political...money and power were the underlying drivers in the corruption of the evangelical church, families and individuals. So many failures in leadership and so much obfuscation and justification. Your scholarship is illuminating and timely. Thank you for sharing it.
Thank you!!! I remember that protestants supported legal abortion, i grew up Catholic so I got some grief for it. I read somewhere that politicians made it up to replace racism
Fascinating and informative lecture. Speaking of Ronald Reagan, by the way . . . “Not afraid to burn in Hell” - Ron Reagan - "Unabashed atheist” . . . Long live the ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE - WE MUST DEFEND IT! 😉😊
Well that’s only possible if ideology is a one dimensional spectrum with opposing poles. A more nuanced way to see it is circular, or even a matrix with four quadrants. But even seeing it your way, the centre is not moderate to the extremes. The centre is its own version of extremism, one that disguises its politics, making it somewhat insidious. Thats because a non-decision is a decision. Just as neutrality, depoliticization, technocracy and process over outcome are all political trade-offs.
But sometimes the status quo we all just accept, since it's alle we know, is actually pretty extremistic. For example the insanity of financially ruining people over getting the healthcare they need to survive. Or the continuus privatisation of profits, while losses are socialised.
Thank You! You are the first person I have heard give a history of abortion and Evangelicals that rings true to me. I grew up in one of those traditional, conservative churches and never heard a word about abortion as killing a baby. Abortions happened after the shame and “sin” of pre-marital sex. I also learned that the Catholic religion considered life to begin at conception but that was not the case in our beliefs. I don’t know when that transition happened but I have always believed that life, human life is/was much more than a fertilized egg and a beating heart. I reject interpretations of the Biblical texts being used these days to support the idea that the Bible teaches against abortion.
So, you believe that when a doctor reaches through an opened cervix with a tool and literally yanks out body parts of a fetus one by one until he’s finished is NOT “killing”, or that Yah thinks that’s ok? You do understand that you were created in Yah’s beautiful image? ❤
@@annieg9199 I don’t know what Yah is and you can’t kill something that isn’t living. The vast majority of elective abortions are done early in pregnancy with medication. I’m choosing to leave the decision for a woman to have an abortion between her, her family, her conscience and her doctor understanding that there are many mitigating circumstances when an abortion is sought.
Dr. Balmer, this was most helpful. In further support of your thesis regarding the religious right's late conversion to anti-abortionism, you may have come across the first edition of Norman Geisler's 1971 book, Ethics: Alternatives and Issues. In this first edition, Geisler argued that abortion was an appropriate moral choice in certain circumstances. As you are aware, Geisler later abandoned and eschewed this position and declared abortion immoral in the book's second edition and his later writings. I don't know if Geisler ever articulated his basis for this radical change.
I have begun to believe that the Religious Right as it is operating is more tribal than religious and I also believe Trump blatantly used this group to gain even more votes whereas it is obvious Trump has never been a religious person nor has his behavior exemplified Christian practice and behavior. To me, having been reared as a very strict Evangelical Christian, none of what I now see as an older American appears to represent Christlike behavior but rather much more The Prosperity Gospel and politicized religious-mimicking behavior. The Oregon senator made a point I have always felt is true because it brings true caring and practicality into moral and loving shepherding all those children born after Roe vs Wade’s overturning and especially those as a result of rape and incest and child abuse.
I agree with most of what Balmer says. The only big problem I see is where he says he finds it "deeply offensive" when people say the "Christian right," and he says there is nothing Christian about what they do. Couldn't they say the same thing about him by saying that he's not standing up for THEIR God? Balmer says he's a Christian, but so does Trump. "Christian" has always been a subjective term. Since God is unprovable, it will always be a subjective term.
Yes they might say the same of Balmer but the difference is that Balmer has far more to support his argument than they do of him. Evangelicals may think the Bible is on their side when it comes to their pro-life (read: pro-birth) policies, but it doesn't. The Bible makes no prohibition against abortion, quite the opposite, Numbers 5:11-13 has instructions for a man to take his wife, whom he suspects of being unfaithful, to drink a 'bitter water' that - if she were unfaithful - would cause her to miscarry. OTOH American Evangelicals have openly supported white nationalist / nativist policies such as closed borders, the incarceration of refugees and expulsion of immigrants (legal or otherwise), the ideation of gun culture, the support for unfettered capitalism and greed while attacking important social safety nets like the American Healthcare Act, Medicare, and other programs, they have pursued the rolling back of protections for vulnerable/marginalized groups like LGBTQ and people of color. and of course the already- mentioned support for racist policies like segregation, and their embrace of morally repulsive slimebags like Donald Trump. Now an Evangelical might say "hurr hurr but Jesus never ad-vo-cated for godless so-shul-ism because universal healthcare" --- maybe not -- but promoting a just society, that treats all its members fairly irrespective of their race, origins, sex, gender, etc... and offers them a healthcare system that would allow them to exist without the fear of crushing poverty from a medical emergency is FAR closer to the Christian ideal as espoused by Jesus who literally advocated for giving away all your wealth and helping your neighbor and the less fortunate. Yet this message is totally lost on Evangelicals. So while I agree with you that Balmer somewhat overstates his "offense" to the term Christian Right, I think he's just trying to make a point about how this movement has aligned itself and in some cases, co-opted, by very ugly and un-Christian forces.
@@therexbellator you are a mistaken or you are a liar! That is not what numbers says. Please read the the scripture properly. Nowhere in the scripture does it describe the woman/wife as pregnant 🙄
@@Dannyboy0202 YOU are the Liar or you just never actually have looked yourself. The Test for an Unfaithful Wife (Numbers 5:11-13) 11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure-or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing. 16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse-“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.” 23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children. 29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’” Incredible how absolutely ridiculous the Bible is. A document from the Dark Ages indeed. So much disgusting barbaric lunacy in one man made fable, its astounding. No wonder millions have died because of such barbaric beliefs....only the Reformation alone is evidence enough for me to reject this poisonous cult.
@@therexbellator Nowhere in the Bible does Yah condone murder or abortion or homosexuality. I think where Christendom at large has gone astray is condensed in the old phrase, “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” Just bc people are fallible doesn’t mean that the Bible is also. YHWH is love. Without love, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 13) Yeshua said: “ The greatest love is this - that a man would lay down his life for his friend.” AND, “From the beginning, YHWH created a man and a woman.”❤❤❤❤❤❤
"Resting on rotten timbers" captures
it all. Personal, political...money and
power were the underlying drivers
in the corruption of the evangelical
church, families and individuals. So
many failures in leadership and so
much obfuscation and justification.
Your scholarship is illuminating and
timely. Thank you for sharing it.
Thank you!!! I remember that protestants supported legal abortion, i grew up Catholic so I got some grief for it. I read somewhere that politicians made it up to replace racism
Fascinating and informative lecture. Speaking of Ronald Reagan, by the way . . . “Not afraid to burn in Hell” - Ron Reagan - "Unabashed atheist” . . . Long live the ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE - WE MUST DEFEND IT! 😉😊
I am against all forms of extremism, no matter which side of the aisle they fall on.
Yes !!! ME TOO !
You're American. There is only the Right there. Stop pretending.
Well that’s only possible if ideology is a one dimensional spectrum with opposing poles. A more nuanced way to see it is circular, or even a matrix with four quadrants. But even seeing it your way, the centre is not moderate to the extremes. The centre is its own version of extremism, one that disguises its politics, making it somewhat insidious. Thats because a non-decision is a decision. Just as neutrality, depoliticization, technocracy and process over outcome are all political trade-offs.
But sometimes the status quo we all just accept, since it's alle we know, is actually pretty extremistic. For example the insanity of financially ruining people over getting the healthcare they need to survive. Or the continuus privatisation of profits, while losses are socialised.
Thank You! You are the first person I have heard give a history of abortion and Evangelicals that rings true to me. I grew up in one of those traditional, conservative churches and never heard a word about abortion as killing a baby. Abortions happened after the shame and “sin” of pre-marital sex. I also learned that the Catholic religion considered life to begin at conception but that was not the case in our beliefs. I don’t know when that transition happened but I have always believed that life, human life is/was much more than a fertilized egg and a beating heart. I reject interpretations of the Biblical texts being used these days to support the idea that the Bible teaches against abortion.
So, you believe that when a doctor reaches through an opened cervix with a tool and literally yanks out body parts of a fetus one by one until he’s finished is NOT “killing”, or that Yah thinks that’s ok? You do understand that you were created in Yah’s beautiful image? ❤
@@annieg9199 I don’t know what Yah is and you can’t kill something that isn’t living. The vast majority of elective abortions are done early in pregnancy with medication. I’m choosing to leave the decision for a woman to have an abortion between her, her family, her conscience and her doctor understanding that there are many mitigating circumstances when an abortion is sought.
Dr. Balmer, this was most helpful. In further support of your thesis regarding the religious right's late conversion to anti-abortionism, you may have come across the first edition of Norman Geisler's 1971 book, Ethics: Alternatives and Issues. In this first edition, Geisler argued that abortion was an appropriate moral choice in certain circumstances. As you are aware, Geisler later abandoned and eschewed this position and declared abortion immoral in the book's second edition and his later writings. I don't know if Geisler ever articulated his basis for this radical change.
I have begun to believe that the Religious Right as it is operating is more tribal than religious and I also believe Trump blatantly used this group to gain even more votes whereas it is obvious Trump has never been a religious person nor has his behavior exemplified Christian practice and behavior. To me, having been reared as a very strict Evangelical Christian, none of what I now see as an older American appears to represent Christlike behavior but rather much more The Prosperity Gospel and politicized religious-mimicking behavior. The Oregon senator made a point I have always felt is true because it brings true caring and practicality into moral and loving shepherding all those children born after Roe vs Wade’s overturning and especially those as a result of rape and incest and child abuse.
I agree with most of what Balmer says. The only big problem I see is where he says he finds it "deeply offensive" when people say the "Christian right," and he says there is nothing Christian about what they do. Couldn't they say the same thing about him by saying that he's not standing up for THEIR God? Balmer says he's a Christian, but so does Trump.
"Christian" has always been a subjective term. Since God is unprovable, it will always be a subjective term.
Yes they might say the same of Balmer but the difference is that Balmer has far more to support his argument than they do of him.
Evangelicals may think the Bible is on their side when it comes to their pro-life (read: pro-birth) policies, but it doesn't. The Bible makes no prohibition against abortion, quite the opposite, Numbers 5:11-13 has instructions for a man to take his wife, whom he suspects of being unfaithful, to drink a 'bitter water' that - if she were unfaithful - would cause her to miscarry.
OTOH American Evangelicals have openly supported white nationalist / nativist policies such as closed borders, the incarceration of refugees and expulsion of immigrants (legal or otherwise), the ideation of gun culture, the support for unfettered capitalism and greed while attacking important social safety nets like the American Healthcare Act, Medicare, and other programs, they have pursued the rolling back of protections for vulnerable/marginalized groups like LGBTQ and people of color. and of course the already- mentioned support for racist policies like segregation, and their embrace of morally repulsive slimebags like Donald Trump.
Now an Evangelical might say "hurr hurr but Jesus never ad-vo-cated for godless so-shul-ism because universal healthcare" --- maybe not -- but promoting a just society, that treats all its members fairly irrespective of their race, origins, sex, gender, etc... and offers them a healthcare system that would allow them to exist without the fear of crushing poverty from a medical emergency is FAR closer to the Christian ideal as espoused by Jesus who literally advocated for giving away all your wealth and helping your neighbor and the less fortunate. Yet this message is totally lost on Evangelicals.
So while I agree with you that Balmer somewhat overstates his "offense" to the term Christian Right, I think he's just trying to make a point about how this movement has aligned itself and in some cases, co-opted, by very ugly and un-Christian forces.
@@therexbellator you are a mistaken or you are a liar! That is not what numbers says. Please read the the scripture properly. Nowhere in the scripture does it describe the woman/wife as pregnant 🙄
@@Dannyboy0202 YOU are the Liar or you just never actually have looked yourself.
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife (Numbers 5:11-13)
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure-or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse-“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”
Incredible how absolutely ridiculous the Bible is. A document from the Dark Ages indeed. So much disgusting barbaric lunacy in one man made fable, its astounding. No wonder millions have died because of such barbaric beliefs....only the Reformation alone is evidence enough for me to reject this poisonous cult.
@@therexbellator Nowhere in the Bible does Yah condone murder or abortion or homosexuality.
I think where Christendom at large has gone astray is condensed in the old phrase, “Love the sinner; hate the sin.”
Just bc people are fallible doesn’t mean that the Bible is also.
YHWH is love. Without love, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 13) Yeshua said: “ The greatest love is this - that a man would lay down his life for his friend.”
AND, “From the beginning, YHWH created a man and a woman.”❤❤❤❤❤❤
Great talk.
Want to know about a religious organization, follow the money. It's just about the money, everything else is used to make more money.
Its about Power. The money pays for the power and power automatically guarantees more money.
A wanna be apparatchik . The empire is done.