That has been a problem with Mahindra with Jawa/Yezdi. They made too many offers too quickly to compete against RE and didn't pay attention to refinement. Their bikes look good though.
This thread shows so much ignorance I cannot even start describing.. I am italian and the idea that Ducati or Lamborghini are German is such a ludicrous idea.. they are made where they have always been made and by Italian and international engineers but it is very much an Italian joint. Rather the tech that is developed there goes back in other German cars too and vice versa, but what you smart arses forget to name is the Piaggio Aprilia Moto Guzzi joint, that is producing a whole bunch of models and different tech, so is Ferrari Maserati of the same stock. And satellite to these brands you have got a massive amount of tech rotating, Brembo, Mistral, Agostini, Pollini, Aplinestar, Dainese, AGV. I could go forever, at the same time the reborn of Cagiva, Benelli, Moto Morini, Fantic that yes, in order to survive they had to source logistics from other countries. But the industry is thriving with artisanal knowledge, innovation and pride to belong. This is what you fundamentally misunderstand and this is why you keep failing to achieve anything except doing exactly what the video host says about the Indians , basically slacking and talking down other countries or brands. While in the UK you keep buying mostly BMw cars and bikes, wake up pals. Also unless you believe that Brexit can be applied to a;l sort of walks of life, the modern market is integrated, so probably only Moto Guzzi is the only brand that was born and still is after 100 years in the same warehouse it started. I wish a good ride to all you anyway..
@@joec.9976yes of course because they do magnificent bikes…. 😂 if you mean money yes but they also get back a lot of intelligence that goes in other products and if you know the Italian German parternship you might also know that is a very virtuous one, very respectful of the traditions and territory. By the way Audi 4 has been produced in Italy for decades, that is why is called the land of Quattro
The UK needs to get the younger generation on board. But when did you last see a motorcycle Ad on mainstream TV. Every Ad break you get car adverts rammed down your throat. Unfortunately I don't think the UK Goverment want bikes on the road anyway. Just a thought.
Getting less and less for £7k as time goes on. 2014 £7k gets you a yamaha MT-09. Now it won't even get you a MT-07. Soon it won't get you a CB500X (Nx500)
We're all driving cars, because Motorbiking used to be cheap - an economic way to travel, but not nowadays... especially for people starting out. For what it costs, you might as well own a car.
Harley in the US has become the same way losing money but not producing affordable bikes to the market where Japanese have ruled for a couple decades now
@@gunsdonovan9183 Nah, just those 2 cheapie bikes, the X range are re-badged chinese machines. Harley still makes a ton of profit BTW, just less than previous years.
Harley's problem is they can't really change, anything they try that deviates from the formula is rejected by their customers, and the dealers usually try to steer customers onto normal big bikes rather than low profit models. About the only thing saving HD now is that they carry their own credit, and if your credit rating is terrible, they'll still finance you, it'll be over 30% interest, but you'll get the bike. They also have a huge repossession and resale of repo'd bikes.
Royal Enfield are unique in being able to develop an existing line of bikes. If it wasn't for REs domestic sales, there would be no budget classics in the Anglophone world. Apart from the lovely tank - Norton have always done nice petrol tanks - the new bike looks, as one wag put it, like "a crashed satellite".
funny how some on this chat call RE english but call Ducati german.. total misunderstanding of the manufacture and engineering pipeline… aside this subject I have heard mixed review about RE quality but I have never tried one. I like them for sure
The current Norton Commando is more of an ornament than a practical motorcycle. It's way too expensive too. If they wanted to produce such a vanity project then they should have introduced it alongside or after a Norton version of the Triumph 400, or any of the Royal Enfields. More practical and affordable. If they really got going and took some market share they could then capitalise on brand recognition and nostalgia to make a mint selling Norton merchandise.
When I see a road test of any make, in the mcn, and the price is over 13000... I just turn over. Totally lost the reason the masses used to by bikes. Bikes now are way too expensive. My 2012 aircooled speedmaster cost me 5000. More than enough thanks.
Living in Australia the Norton was always a dream bike. Now the new one certainly looks like a work of art but it kind of feels like a money grabbing venture. Dealers are few here and its price is way too high for most people. I have to say Italian bikes sell well here and they are actually decent bikes and Indian motorcycles have made a great new Scout which is appealing to many. Not many younger riders would be interested in a Norton and sadly the bike brand will disappear especially when other brands are better value.🇦🇺
Norton Unofficial has estimated a loss of about £6700 per bike that’s sold. That’s grim. They’ve dived in the deep end too early with an expensive unproven product.
Norton should of carried on with the 650 atlas was a very interesting concept and in todays market with the likes of Triumphs speed 400 etc they would of flew off the shelves imho cheers uncle Stu 👍🏻
Norton did not design that engine and did not own the intellectual property rights to it, so it was never part of the TVS deal. Hence the new owners could produce the Atlas, even if they wanted to.
@@jeremykeller211 You are a die-hard hero sir. I am just short of 70 and now refuse to get involved with anything that doesn’t have an electric starter.
Build bikes too expensive to buy to people who will never ride them, not a smart way to run a business model, sad, these old marques were much revered.
Norton's problem is that the bikes are way too expensive and their market is niche and tiny. I think that I am right in saying that small, niche, expensive manufacturers always struggle.
I agree the only viable bikes were the atlas range . The commando looks wrong and costs too much. Norton is moving too slow. The market had moved ahead of them. Bmw partnered with TVS to produce the g310 range. There was a 2yr launch cycle demanded by BMW ... That bikes been selling since 2017.
Speaking of Triumph, they've been killing off the good will they generated with their pricing and policy on spares. When you do things that alienate your customers they stop coming back- had a triumph myself a few years back but wouldn't buy one again because of this. Shame as they make beautiful bikes.
Wouldn't buy another, either. 3 months out of warranty and having had more than the recommended oil and filter change during its 10,000 mile,it destroyed its gearbox. Without warning and under minimal load (coasting downhill in 6th at 55 mph). Contacted Hin kley direct. Their attitude was dreadful. Weren't interested in helping in any way,or in what caused the failiure. Now ride a R nine T. Better in every way. Fk Triumph!
You are right. Triumph spares are shockingly expensive. My tiger 900 gt was written off despite no mechanical damage as plastics are ridiculously expensive. Looking toward Royal Enfield now for a replacement as far more reasonably priced.
Morning Stewart. 1973 was the very last time i bought a British bike, a 750 Norton Commando. 1974 was the year i bought my first Japanese 650cc bike and i never looked back. I got fed-up with the breakdowns and unreliably. Im still happy with the 650 Super Meteor 👍. By the way youre not the only one getting caught out by the weather, but my arthritis doesn't lie. Sunday morning my grandson and i washed and polished our bikes. Coming for a ride my grandson asked. With that pain in both knees and lower back i said no as its going to rain. He checked his weather app and we parted company. That night he sent ne a message. Bike is filthy and i got drenched 🤣🤣🤣. Safe cruising Stewart, shame we cant seem able to design and build an affordable bike in the UK that are as good or better as other makers?
I have 4 Triumph; the "new" one is a Thruxton R with fairing low clips etc. This bike has more quality than those Honda that you mention. Please check the details on your Honda (also Honda s are the best looking of the Japanese brands) from the welding to the plastics of the gauges etc. All low quality and no details. Sorry I do not want to sound aggressive is not my intention but if you compare quality and look...
I have really come to appreciate your insights on the motorcycle industry as a whole and the business in general. It's easy to fall into the advertising hype that all manufacturers use and loose sight of the reality of what motorcycles are and where their future lies. Please keep up the good work.
I only ever bought a new bike once and I was living in Jersey, so the price was UK tax free. (£7.500 ZZR1100 D2) Every other bike has been up to and no more than £4,000. It was always a low cost form of transport, for commute & holiday, but mainly used to just clear my mind of all of life's daily crap.
What Norton should do to really kick it off, build them in India, make a slightly better quality version of a Royal Enfield Interceptor or GT, build for the masses but at a slightly higher price and quality, good gear but not too expensive, lose the elite tag, get them out their in high numbers. I think RE hit the nail on the head with the Interceptor, awesome bike at a great price.
Couldn't agree more Stuart, only said to my son a few days ago the Norton need to get into the affordable but fun market of bikes and start making some money.
A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I was young! Back then getting on the road on a motorcycle was a fairly simple endeavour. You could just stick L plates on anything up to a fairly nippy 250cc motorcycle and away you went. The only thing you couldn't do, was go on a motorway. Getting a bike was fairly cheap as well, as was insurance. Lots of youngsters back then, went to bikes first to get that taste of independence which only your own personal transport gives you. Getting a car licence back then was much more complicated and time consuming, so people just naturally started on a bike. These days of course, even getting started on a bike is lot more complicated with all the licence and training requirements that there are today. You might as well get a car licence for all the trouble getting a bike licence is worth. So there just aren't the numbers turning to bikes in the first place today. Some but not nearly enough. When I'm out and about on my bike, I can't help but notice the demographic who are riding bikes these days, it's just a fact. But then, I hear some loud clapped out bike coming down the road, with some young whipper-snapper dressed in an old leather jacket, jeans and trainers. Flogging the engine to death, attitude flapping in the wind! And I can't help but smile. Maybe there's hope after all?
Thank you for your sober assessment of Norton, a motorcycle that has been dear to my heart since I was a teenager a long time ago. I must point out, however, that Norton at it’s hay day was an expensive, hand built, niche brand. My Commando was similar in price to a BMW or Ducati when new, about $2200 in 1974 which is in the $16,000 to $25,000 range measured by today’s depreciated dollar. However, Norton had been winning races for decades and its bikes were generally believed to be the fastest, best cornering bikes available and offered an unparalleled, visceral experience to the serious biker.
A forensic narrative again Stuart. Excellent viewpoint cutting through the hype of nostalgia and revealing the bare bones that small capacity motorcycles and in particular Royal Enfield are the sensible way forward to motorcycling.
From Kentucky USA...Stuart, I really enjoy your videos. British engineering is the foundation of Western Civilization. Reviving the classic motorcycle brands is a very gratifying process and I hope Norton makes the cut. If you ever get a chance to come here we can show you some outstanding riding experiences.
I took a truck in for service and was chatting with the owner who's son was working at norton under Garner. This was around 2015. He told me about customers bikes in for repair having parts borrowed to fit to other bikes. Anyone's deposit was used to fund bikes that were waiting for delivery after their money was already spent
I think the reality is this. The Norton we see now is NOT the Norton of the future. The job of the UK factory is to keep the brand going and raise profile. Remember that Norton is owned by a huge Indian bike maker, so I think right now they are working on a range of cheaper 650cc bikes to be made in India. Until they arrive, these super expensive and impartial iconic bikes are here to keep the brand going.
Maybe, but they have to generate enough profit and buyers to make the effort worth it. Right now they are nowhere close. I see BSA not really taking off either for a different reason: The market for old-school and retro motorcycles is a bit saturated right now.
Mr. Fillingham- I am in agreement with your analysis of the Norton business plan. I too hope that they will offer motorcycles that realistically can sell to prospective buyers, but I fear that their current business model cannot lead to success.
The foot placement on nearly all modern bikes is too far back. At 6'2" and aged 65, I really struggle on modern bikes. I can easily and comfortably ride almost any bike from the 50s, 60s and 70s.
At that height you are too tall for the 60s and older bikes. The bikes for tall people are in my opinion ugly; like BMW gs and the likes.. Look like birds not motorcycles.
@@TheReverb1 The old Laverda Jota was a tall bike with a 33" seat height, the reason was Massimo Laverda was 6' 6" tall and he made Laverda's at a height that he was comfotable riding. Laverda's were quality hand built and thus expensive machines. I used to own a Laverda 1200 triple, it was a fantastic machine to ride.
Good video Stuart, sadly I feel Norton is a Dead duck as their bikes are always to me far too much money and then matched with quality issues where they were sold with this hand built quality image. You could argue that robotic manufacture as used in the car industry takes out the human mistake factor, or the employee having had a heavy night before and not really working with care. If the Indian owners a have lost / invested close to £100 m as your saying they are never going to get that back. Small volume sales mean you’re always crippled with ongoing costs unless you charge a huge premium. I don’t know how many staff Norton have but 200 at an average wage of £30,000 is £6m a year. Never mind building running cost and of course their investment in machinery etc payback on equipment you can see the debt just growing and growing. Payback requires volume sales their cost won’t generate. If you were to line up 4 manufacturers of high priced bikes say Ducati, BMW, Triumph, Norton all with a new model launching next year, what order would they be placed if looking at meeting delivery date, performance/quality issues, servicing network? Where would you feel safest placing your deposit? Sadly Norton have a long way to go and I don’t think they will get there.
Thanks Stu. That was a very interesting view on how we are seeing these brands again. They were actually finished with. I wonder how it will carry on when there are no longer any people who were buying or seeing these brand the first time around? Im currently on my 3rd new RE.
I think you might find Norton will be going Global in the near future which would change things for them dramatically. The current Commando will cease production some time later this year as each bike is SVA approved, so can only be made in limited numbers and sold here in the UK. I am sure new bikes will be coming along but don't under estimate the wealth or what people will pay for a Heritage brand like Norton especially in the far east and the USA. Norton has a huge reputation in the USA for example. In my experience, Indians are very business savvy and are mega careful with their money and I am sure they will have done due diligence on their investment here in the UK. Even Royal Enfield has a sizeable UK presence and I believe most of their new models are designed in the UK. It will be interesting to see what Norton do in the coming years. I have heard they are working on smaller homologation bikes to sell to global markets but I guess that has always been on the cards for them...
Given my Mum and Dad did their courting on an old Norton Dominator I should be all-in for the brand ... but I'm not. I'm all-in for Moto Guzzi. For half the price of a Commando Guzzi will sell you a 850 V7 that only suffers a bit in comparison due to more basic suspension and is usable as a daily tide should that be what you want, or for slightly less then Commando money they'll sell you a V100 that manages to combine old-school character with good (but not overwhelming) power and a modern ride. It took two buyouts (one by Aprilia, then Piaggio buying Aprilia) but the Italians have managed to keep one of their most famous old brands in local ownership and still relevant today.
No idea about the british/india relation. However I do hope TVS can make models that work and look like what Norton would want. We have seen royal enfield make it work, we have seen benelli and moto morini make it work. See no reason norton+tvs couldn't.
True Indian motorcycle enthusiasts are very fond of British brands of motorcycles as much as the British are, cos India also started their automobile/motorcycle journey with the British brands and are as much emotional as the British, and really dont want any of the iconic brands to die out and become history. We are just as proud as any British would be to see the old brands resurrected and its a great time for motorcyclists, so just try to enjoy this time to the fullest before electric motorcycles take over. Cheers
I can't say I'm surprised it's quite a niche sector they are aiming at, especially some of their high-end bikes,with High end prices to match, I would have one tomorrow if I won the lottery.
Having once been a Norton enthusiast in the 70's I purchase a Norton Commando 850 for 2500 USD. The bike needed lots of love to make it work the way it should. I added a Barnett clutch as the Brass plate clutch slipped impressively when you hit the throttle. Also the bike would not go past 5000 RPMs due to the mufflers being too restrictive. I added a pair of Dunstall's and that was resolved. Then I broke several transmission counter shafts due to the shaft being like glass from the hardness. I reduced the hardness of the shaft and tuned the twin Amal's. Then the Bike ran properly. I loved that bike until it was caught in a garage fire. I always loved the Norton brand as it was legendary when I was young. Now I watched several of the reviews and the bike just is not what it should be at the cost. I do hope they start making an Atlas that people can afford to save the brand. I also hope they fix the Commando.
I agree with everything you’ve said Stuart! A great video with a fair summery of the Norton approach to motorcycle production. I hope they go for a bike that will be suitable for the common man, as opposed to a rich man’s trinket. I think the clock is definitely ticking for them. Let’s hope they wake up before it’s too late.
Excellent review! My father said "not all antiques are worth preserving". I think that applies to companies too.. I love my 1973 MG Midget but BMC? whoa. The 60's and 70's were a funky time which killed off many interesting brands what with the energy "crisis". Focus on safety etc eventually brought more reliable cars. We are facing again an "energy crisis" told to us by governments everywhere. Here in the USA EV sales have peaked and are now decreasing. The folly of government made charging stations is highlighted in the news regularly as tax-payer boondoggles. The high costs of Don Quixote windmills and wildlife frying solar "farms" are spiking energy rates and creating brownouts and blackouts. People are slowly waking up and rejecting these things. The market size in USA is huge. I do not see ICE going away nor motorcycling in general at any point. I will add that if share holders in Audi want to pay for Ducati to make gorgeous machines and subsidize the costs, then let them do it! In fact, I encourage it!
The Triumph brand appears to be a hit over here in the US. I came very close to buying a Trident 660 and could have afforded to do so. What stopped me was dealer support. Too far away. My dealer is in the same county I live in and sell Kawasaki, Yamaha, KTM, GasGas and Husqvarna motorcycles. It's why I'm not riding an RE motorcycle also. I do really think the Speed 400 is a terrific starter bike. I don't think Norton motorcycles will be built at scale and sold here in my lifetime.
Insightful as ever. I really don’t understand why they invest so much to sell bikes that won’t sell in great numbers. I can’t see Norton surviving on these figures. BSA is an interesting one, their bikes look nice, but absolutely nowhere near me sells them. Why they haven’t tried to get in with MotoGB or one of the other big dealerships groups is beyond me. Hopefully they will or I fear they will disappear again. I hope not though.
stuart, wise and well thought out comments. Sad to read the truth, but it IS the truth. My heart beats happily when I see the Nortons because I remember the originals. Brings back thoughts of my youth. As you said I’m a diminishing resource for motorcycle sellers, I am 75 years old. I took my 883 Harley Sportster out for a ride the other day and although it was pleasant, no freeway riding, I had to contend with impatient car drivers. I’m afraid the younger and next generation riders will not be interested eventually. I think RE is the icon of the older rider. It has the soul of our simpler pleasure of being out in the wind with the reliability of the modern. Motorcycles to our generation are a way of life. I don’t know if it will continue in years to come.
Hi Stewart, I really appreciate you raising this sort of conversation, and wish more chanels would look deeper into the current state and future of motorcycling in the UK. I have no problem with the move towards lower capacity bikes, and as a matter of fact, I applaud it. Seeing for myself how smaller motorcycles are used and utilised around the world it a little disappointing how smaller bikes are looked down on in the UK 15:18 , and you're not considered to be a real Motorcyclist unless you ride a big bike. The drawn-out process to gaining a bike licence is obviously not helping the sales of motorcycles in the uk, and the green agenda is a major problem. I have ridden electric motorcycles and the disconnect i felt with the machine is horrible. Apart from probably abs i don't like rider aids on bikes and with motorcycle manufacturers adding more and more onto every size of bike it would be great to see someone bold enough to utilise the Norton brand to build a striped back 350 - 500 cc bike capturing the emotions of their bygone days of glory, a little bit like the Royal Enfield Continental GT.
I love the 400-500CC Range with smaller lighter bikes. I have a fantic cabellero 500 and its so easy to chuck around and easy to work on and is light weight, 150kg wet. £6500 new.
I think the UK has just followed America I think things will just keep getting bigger and bigger. Cars and bikes in capacity. I feel the choice of small bikes has been limited in the UK. I would like to see kawasaki do a 400x. And I would prefer the CB400X or NX400 as sold In other countries. And how nice would a 400 transalp have been with a V twin engine. I bought my bike 10 years ago now and got an 800. At the time the cb500x wasn't the bike it is now. (Usd forks twin disks and 19" front wheel) and the 650 bikes were heavy and basic vs my 800. Seems people generally wouldn't even except a 250cc nowadays. Maybe it's just such a big deal passing the test people want to get the most from it with a big bike.
Take an idea like the 650 interceptor , make it look like the old style 850 Norton Commando interstate , add a few nice bits, rev counter ,fuel gauge, build it to a price like RE ,and you will have a winner ! Then once you have built up the name again , then MAY BE, build these over priced money pit bikes ,which is really not a good idea in the declining motorcycle sales world .
UK roads are hardly fit for motorcycle purpose, hence increased popularity of cars, especially around towns. And Norton has been a toxic brand for about 20years now. Except for the antivirus software?
I had a good chat with the Norton lads at the bike show a few months back. I just didn’t have faith due to previous goings on before TVS came in. I know TVS cleaned up the messed left behind and honoured undelivered bikes, fixed them etc, so hats off to them there. They have the £2k off to drop the price but there’s a ton of pre owned with minimal mileage for sale, some dealers or ex dealers with new stock still have the same bike a year plus and the rest. If I did get a Commando just to add to the collection, it will be a mercy purchase but I can’t see the youngsters even looking at Nortons, it’s going to be the 50+ mob with a bit of cash n]but that will end up on Autotrader the following year or earlier…..
Again, the voice of reason. Great ideas, I totally agree. I think these "premium" brands should all think about introducing some scooters in their lineup. Some better-made ones, maybe a bit more expensive, but still much cheaper than their other products. Maybe motorcycles will be dead in 15 years, but scooters won't. I think they will still have a place simply bcs of logistic reasons, too many cars on the roads. Too many traffic jams.
Nice one Stuart, Nortons new owners should have put their efforts into the Atlas range, under 10k middleweight that created a great deal of interest when it was unveiled. They would have sold a shed load. What Norton offer at the moment are niche bikes for the rich..
Hi Stu, Maybe the Norton brand has been seen as not only a motorcycle manufacturer but also it can be used to create a fashion brand clothes, perfume, etc. The same model that has been used when Harley Davidson was bought 3 decades ago. It is not the motorcycles but the brand name that has value. Ride safe and hopefully some good weather will come.
The trouble is that motorcycle manufacturing has turned out very expensive machines that few can afford. In the old days they made a lower priced basic machine for those less privalidged. One thing else is there are no British producers of 125 cc machines.
Unless it's a 125cc or something very small the cost is more than a car in most cases. When a car gets 60mpg £0 Road tax tyres last 30k and cost half as much than a pair of bike tyres. And the safety and dryness of a shell around you. And helmet, comms and Bluetooth, are all normal. And heated seats. Motorcycles have only just got a 12v socket.
Absolutely lovely bike BUT the issues around paint and fit on some of the parts with the RRP is just too much of a problem. The second hand market on these is a much better option.
Except that there is no spares backup whatsoever and there are some horror stories when it comes to reliability. Read the owner forums, it’s fact. The Garner bikes have to be cared for by literally a handful of independent specialists, trawling eBay for bits and relying on forum members. Most used Nortons in the classifieds have next to no mileage on them and you have to ask why. Not good.
Yep I think that’s the worry. There’s even issues around Triumph spares sometimes so I’d really worry about Norton. Nope when I upgrade from my Conti it’s gonna be a Bobber or a Scrambler for me I guess.
All very valid points, even with a £2000 discount at £27k Norton's are way too expensive. The bikes need to be modular and mass produced (maybe a 500) in India which like RE 350 can be dressed up in different ways to appeal to appeal to more riders. The BSA is a fine example of almost getting it right, the styling and some of the parts are just quite awful. I've just recently picked up a Chinese bike and only time will tell if it is a wise choice; on initial ride experience I would say yes (I'm in the Algarve now). Am I bothered that it doesn't say Triumph/Norton/BSA or RE, not in the least. Harley, Indian, Buell, Polaris and Victory are all heading the same way.
In the heyday of British motorbikes, they were bought by the masses who couldn't afford cars but needed transport. Therefore, motorbikes sold in massive numbers which gave the manufacturers a good income on reasonably priced machines sold in large volume. To try and make motorbikes now in small numbers with defunct makers names is madness. The Indian Royal Enfield is produced to suit their market and priced so that the masses can afford to buy them instead of cars. Making super expensive motorbikes for niche markets is never going to be a good idea. Not rocket science is it ?
I love the overall looks of the new 961 Commando. Still cannot get over the clear urine sample double cups by the handles. What were they thinking??!! Solid black would at least looked much better.
At the time that I bought my 06 Yamaha warrior, I could have bought three for the price of a Harley. I still have my warrior, it has 101k miles on it, still runs like new, has never broke down, has never leaked a drop of oil. Ive owned 4 Harleys and could break one every time I rode one hard. I made a great choice.
TVS has the financial ability to simply follow the roadmap Siddhartha Lal laid down with Royal Enfield, i.e. low-cost manufacturing in India combined with UK based engineering design and R&D. Not sure why they just don’t do it. Some internal conflictions, perhaps. It’s really their only option. Make a serious run at it or close up shop. Nice episode, Stuart!
Everything you've said after 09:15 is true in case of public sentiments and stuff but i don't think a proper businessman or a corporation would take decisions based on emotions, them taking ownership of these brands could be because of their global presence or brand value which the buyer brand may or may not have so they could be after that and of course getting a brand with long history comes with long chains of nostalgia hungry bunches😅
The automotive industry, be it cars or motorcycles has a long history of putting boardroom hubris a long way before market dynamics. You can just about be guaranteed that the current Norton mob haven't done an ounce of market research. They built it because they wanted to build it. Yep, it sounds silly, but history is littered with examples of exactly the same thing.
I love the look of new Commando and did look into getting one(bought an Indian Chief Sport instead), what put me off was previous reliability reputation and no dealers local to me(Scotland). While not cheap I didnt think the Commando was excessively priced. I think there's room for both premium and budget motorcycles in the retro market. The loses don't look good tbf, really hope they can make it work
Garner conceptually got some things right. He had the V4SS as the extra special £44k model but a V4RR at £28k, so still expensive but in the same area as a top R1 or Ducati 1299. Then he had the Atlas 650 Ranger and 650 Nomads for around £10k. It also had the old Commando's which seemed to still be popular with some, and kept a nod to the past. So purely conceptually, (nothing to do with company ethics, production etc) but it was a good concept. TVS has dropped the entire concept and gone for a very narrow premium, near boutique, business model. Ironically that model would work in Garner's old manufacturing area at Donington where as Garner's model would work in a bigger, modern manufacturing development, which TVS appears to have been building. Norton (to me) can only work as a premium mainstream brand. It can be expensive and 'quite' exclusive but it won't work as a near-boutique brand that somehow needs to sell volume to survive. It's trying to shoot left and right at the same time.
This was a vanity purchase, intended to give TVS some Euro Credibility. The walked in eyes wide shut. However in 23 /24 TVS made record profits and recorded their highest ever revenue. Even if they wanted out of Norton, I can't see punters beating the door down to buy. The real story here is that a lot of manufacturers are still relying on the retro Brit /muscle bike/UJM vibe which feels well past its sell by date, plus in the UK no one in the industry is applying enough pressure to make biking affordable for younger riders.
The comments have pretty well nailed it - few people could afford this Commando, and for those who could, one is depending on an even smaller bunch of blokes that remember the great age of Brit road bikes. (Velocette, anyone?) However - any bets on what the resale value of the black beauty shown in the video will be, over time?
I can neither understand how Triumph has evolved into such a success nor understand how Norton has devolved into such a mess. While I’m also unsure about what its boundaries and focus would be, an analysis of the mess is certainly worthy of an MBA thesis.
well actually Stuart, I like the old bikes. I am not in a hurry anymore these days, and I do not expect to die off anytime soon. They are just a different kind of ride. Also, I do not like inline4s. However, I was looking at a modern Enfield recently, and found it very comfortable, The days of the Nortons, BSA's etc are long ago, and they were brought out as workhorses. I did look at the new ones quite sone years ago, an have to agree that they are all too expensive.
This is from a US perspective. 1.) I think Triumph is threading the needle well in their price point matched to their quality. I do agree that the 400 series was a much needed entry point for the brand. 2.) Norton's biggest problem IMO was that its an expensive bike that does not at all match the quality. They tried to scale too big. They should have started as a boutique or borderline bespoke retro bike, that is stone cold known for its style and quality. IE the Rolex of motorcycles. 3.) I don't think motorcycling is going to die in the US, but I do see a lot of changes. It is definitely street bike heavy here. While out riding this past weekend I saw A LOT of street bikes. Lastly, when inflation is taken into account motorcycles aren't as expensive compared to their 10, 20+ year old counter parts as people think. Yes obviously the absolute price has gone up, but adjusted for inflation they aren't WAY more expensive. They are just really expensive for folk not lucky/fortunate enough to also get the pay bumps. It should be obvious but I see a lot of people complain that 2005 they got XXX motorcycle for $8,000 and now its $13,000...well ya, and in 1985 you could have got the same bike for $4,000. (BLS inflation calculator)
Triumph are going down the same road i have always liked and have had 3 Triumps my ST Sprint 1050 then my America both bought new and lastly my Thunderbird LT mainly because they had 20 Litre + fuel tanks so i could do at least 200 miles before having to fill up but now most of them are either Retro with 12 to 14 Litre tanks or Adventure bikes with 34" seats not much use to someone with 29" legs
I'm convinced that you're correct regarding dead British brand names and vanity projects. Similar can be said of China now selling us Morris Group cars - although from what I've read they're maintaining the standards associated with the brand as it slowly sank beneath the waves 😂. The saddest part is that motorcyclists and ICE motorcycles are dying together and won't be around in a decade or two - that sounded awful when said out load. Better get out and enjoy them while we can, in both senses.
I had bikes for over 50 years, I don’t think that the younger ones want them anymore, too expensive insurance is unreal and the state of the roads and the amount of traffic it takes the fun away . My last 5 years on the road, you can’t believe the amount of of car drivers that fail to see you, so many distractions in the new cars that the drivers ain’t going to see a motorcycle
I couldn't agree with you more. They have stuck a whopping great cork in the hole in the market and it's now watertight. And the big four still haven't come up with an answer.
I agree, Nortons are a desirable bike but too expensive. Brit companies make "niche" bikes that are expensive, look at CCM for example. Love the comparison with Asda end of isle stuff! 🙂
Have not owned or ridden a motorcycle for 32 years now, so my "era" if you like was the 80's when I rode Yamaha's. If I bought a bike today it would probably be a Yamaha, hows that for loyalty! I love the old British bikes to look at but I would never buy one, they seem old, heavy, slow and reminiscent of a bygone era of the 1950's.
I think TVS is thinking long term, they said as much from their publicity. I'm sure they will introduce some Indian made Nortons before long. Most Triumph's are made in Thailand but not all. I reckon Norton will be a similar operation with Premium bikes made here but new models will be front India. Unless they do that soon I can't see a long term future for Norton.
Affordability is key RE have got it spot on also a good point is not many young people taking up motorcycles 😏 great content 👍🏻 I wish Gardner would have more punishment but they always seem to get away with it especially taking peoples pension
the whole point of motorbikes is you get more bang for your buck than a car - literally. This is the reason the high majority of people buy motorcycles. Norton has forgotten this and a lot of brands are going the same way.
Absolutely, its obvious they're ridiculously overpriced and expensive and only a very small niche of people can afford them, this happened with as you said Hesketh etc and Vincent would be another example. They need to be more competitive with their fancy prices or die, its as simple as that 🤔🙄
Norton can only sell motorcycles in the UK because of homologation and other issues, and they don't have enough outlets in the UK either, so unless they can get more UK dealers and start selling bikes abroad then unfortunately they are doomed...IMO...
Norton was definitely the most beautiful bike in classic category right. But it had seat like cement and many others little kinks which in the practicality lacked so much it. A carbonfiber mudguard for what exactly..? They should have done a good less cc version something like the classic 350 stabilized in the market, after their disastrous run with previous owner. Rather it looks like then added all apple in one basket and waited for one to get rot.
A couple of days ago a long time classic biking friend send me some film of himself riding his 'Red' Dominator 99. The Dominator line are the bikes Norton should have reintroduced. Royal Enfield have shown the way, have been extremely successful building...and modernising the Bullet series, later the Intercepter, albeit not a direct copy of the original..Sales have proved it was the correct business decision. Although the Commando was a success in the late sixties l believe using modern metallurgy, and design practices on the engine, plus uprated suspension, even the Featherbed...(which is still in production)... the older Dominator would have been a far better platform on which to reintroduce the 'Unapproachable Norton' Not just for nostalgia, me being one of them, but the newer riders who have no interest in a 'Crotch Rockets'... and like you, ride for the sheer pleasure of riding a motorcycle along the Country lanes/roads...
I don’t know much about Norton but the bike is likeable, however I find the forks massive, unnecessary gold, and not in keeping with with the style, almost a hybrid between a performance and a custom. But the main point for me is that everybody will have the bike they like and love, I will never judge anybody’s choice, I will simply hope they are having the time of their lives with the choice they make
If they pitched at becoming another "Triumph" they'd be on to something: the same type of pricing and model range. Keep a Headquarters in the UK (Midlands obviously) purely for brand reinforcement "where the bikes are designed" and build them overseas. Benelli & Moto Morini do this so can state "designed in Italy". The chinese build quality on their bikes is pretty good too from what I've observed, and they look smart.
Way too expensive. Another case of running before walking.
That has been a problem with Mahindra with Jawa/Yezdi. They made too many offers too quickly to compete against RE and didn't pay attention to refinement. Their bikes look good though.
Sad really, if Italians can successfully make reasonably priced wonderful Ducati motorcycles why can't the British make great Nortons. Come on UK.
Audi backing
You forgot "sarcasm off" 😁
Triumph have wrapped up that market very well, and Enfield also. Proven Thruxton was about 12k, loads of dealers, Norton 16k, unproven and no dealers.
This thread shows so much ignorance I cannot even start describing.. I am italian and the idea that Ducati or Lamborghini are German is such a ludicrous idea.. they are made where they have always been made and by Italian and international engineers but it is very much an Italian joint. Rather the tech that is developed there goes back in other German cars too and vice versa, but what you smart arses forget to name is the Piaggio Aprilia Moto Guzzi joint, that is producing a whole bunch of models and different tech, so is Ferrari Maserati of the same stock. And satellite to these brands you have got a massive amount of tech rotating, Brembo, Mistral, Agostini, Pollini, Aplinestar, Dainese, AGV. I could go forever, at the same time the reborn of Cagiva, Benelli, Moto Morini, Fantic that yes, in order to survive they had to source logistics from other countries. But the industry is thriving with artisanal knowledge, innovation and pride to belong. This is what you fundamentally misunderstand and this is why you keep failing to achieve anything except doing exactly what the video host says about the Indians , basically slacking and talking down other countries or brands. While in the UK you keep buying mostly BMw cars and bikes, wake up pals. Also unless you believe that Brexit can be applied to a;l sort of walks of life, the modern market is integrated, so probably only Moto Guzzi is the only brand that was born and still is after 100 years in the same warehouse it started. I wish a good ride to all you anyway..
@@joec.9976yes of course because they do magnificent bikes…. 😂 if you mean money yes but they also get back a lot of intelligence that goes in other products and if you know the Italian German parternship you might also know that is a very virtuous one, very respectful of the traditions and territory. By the way Audi 4 has been produced in Italy for decades, that is why is called the land of Quattro
The UK needs to get the younger generation on board. But when did you last see a motorcycle Ad on mainstream TV. Every Ad break you get car adverts rammed down your throat. Unfortunately I don't think the UK Goverment want bikes on the road anyway. Just a thought.
The war (especially in EU/USA) on bikers isn't just a myth, unfortunately...
The only motorcycle ads you see in the US are for insurance...
MCs? Maybe ebikes. Gen xyz are sporting testostrone free soyballs.
I've never paid more than 7k for a motorcycle, and never will, there's plenty of great bikes out there for that money new and second hand !
Getting less and less for £7k as time goes on. 2014 £7k gets you a yamaha MT-09. Now it won't even get you a MT-07. Soon it won't get you a CB500X (Nx500)
@@chrishart8548 yes , but thankfully still plenty of great second hand bikes under 7k that will last for years 👍
Ever heard about inflation, though?
7k Swiss Francs was back in the mid 80s for a Ninja 900r 😂
@@chrishart8548 Scarcity sells, but we can’t buy scarcity for $7000.
@@chrishart8548 In Malta the Honda CL500 scrambler sells at €6900, so in a year or so we will be there 😢
We're all driving cars, because Motorbiking used to be cheap - an economic way to travel, but not nowadays... especially for people starting out. For what it costs, you might as well own a car.
You're right. On the WC of BC it costs as much to insure my 650 as a full sized van.. plpd only, no theft, no collision!
Harley in the US has become the same way losing money but not producing affordable bikes to the market where Japanese have ruled for a couple decades now
Hasn't HD moved all their manufacturing to China now.
@@gunsdonovan9183 Nah, just those 2 cheapie bikes, the X range are re-badged chinese machines. Harley still makes a ton of profit BTW, just less than previous years.
@@gunsdonovan9183no
@@somethingelse9535the X440, however, has been developed in partnership with Bajaj in India.
Harley's problem is they can't really change, anything they try that deviates from the formula is rejected by their customers, and the dealers usually try to steer customers onto normal big bikes rather than low profit models. About the only thing saving HD now is that they carry their own credit, and if your credit rating is terrible, they'll still finance you, it'll be over 30% interest, but you'll get the bike. They also have a huge repossession and resale of repo'd bikes.
Royal Enfield are unique in being able to develop an existing line of bikes. If it wasn't for REs domestic sales, there would be no budget classics in the Anglophone world. Apart from the lovely tank - Norton have always done nice petrol tanks - the new bike looks, as one wag put it, like "a crashed satellite".
funny how some on this chat call RE english but call Ducati german.. total misunderstanding of the manufacture and engineering pipeline… aside this subject I have heard mixed review about RE quality but I have never tried one. I like them for sure
“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
The current Norton Commando is more of an ornament than a practical motorcycle. It's way too expensive too. If they wanted to produce such a vanity project then they should have introduced it alongside or after a Norton version of the Triumph 400, or any of the Royal Enfields. More practical and affordable. If they really got going and took some market share they could then capitalise on brand recognition and nostalgia to make a mint selling Norton merchandise.
Young riders don’t want nostalgia, they want value for money
When I see a road test of any make, in the mcn, and the price is over 13000... I just turn over. Totally lost the reason the masses used to by bikes. Bikes now are way too expensive. My 2012 aircooled speedmaster cost me 5000. More than enough thanks.
Exactly how many people have that sort of money? And how many of those rich people ride or collect motorcycles?
They are all bought on the ‘never, never’
Living in Australia the Norton was always a dream bike. Now the new one certainly looks like a work of art but it kind of feels like a money grabbing venture. Dealers are few here and its price is way too high for most people. I have to say Italian bikes sell well here and they are actually decent bikes and Indian motorcycles have made a great new Scout which is appealing to many. Not many younger riders would be interested in a Norton and sadly the bike brand will disappear especially when other brands are better value.🇦🇺
Norton Unofficial has estimated a loss of about £6700 per bike that’s sold. That’s grim. They’ve dived in the deep end too early with an expensive unproven product.
Norton should of carried on with the 650 atlas was a very interesting concept and in todays market with the likes of Triumphs speed 400 etc they would of flew off the shelves imho cheers uncle Stu 👍🏻
Norton did not design that engine and did not own the intellectual property rights to it, so it was never part of the TVS deal. Hence the new owners could produce the Atlas, even if they wanted to.
@@jeremykeller211 You are referring to a bike from the 60s. I am referring to a recent design that failed to make production.
@@jeremykeller211 You are a die-hard hero sir. I am just short of 70 and now refuse to get involved with anything that doesn’t have an electric starter.
Build bikes too expensive to buy to people who will never ride them, not a smart way to run a business model, sad, these old marques were much revered.
Norton's problem is that the bikes are way too expensive and their market is niche and tiny. I think that I am right in saying that small, niche, expensive manufacturers always struggle.
I agree the only viable bikes were the atlas range . The commando looks wrong and costs too much. Norton is moving too slow. The market had moved ahead of them.
Bmw partnered with TVS to produce the g310 range. There was a 2yr launch cycle demanded by BMW ... That bikes been selling since 2017.
Speaking of Triumph, they've been killing off the good will they generated with their pricing and policy on spares. When you do things that alienate your customers they stop coming back- had a triumph myself a few years back but wouldn't buy one again because of this. Shame as they make beautiful bikes.
Wouldn't buy another, either. 3 months out of warranty and having had more than the recommended oil and filter change during its 10,000 mile,it destroyed its gearbox. Without warning and under minimal load (coasting downhill in 6th at 55 mph). Contacted Hin kley direct. Their attitude was dreadful. Weren't interested in helping in any way,or in what caused the failiure. Now ride a R nine T. Better in every way. Fk Triumph!
You are right. Triumph spares are shockingly expensive. My tiger 900 gt was written off despite no mechanical damage as plastics are ridiculously expensive. Looking toward Royal Enfield now for a replacement as far more reasonably priced.
Morning Stewart. 1973 was the very last time i bought a British bike, a 750 Norton Commando. 1974 was the year i bought my first Japanese 650cc bike and i never looked back. I got fed-up with the breakdowns and unreliably. Im still happy with the 650 Super Meteor 👍. By the way youre not the only one getting caught out by the weather, but my arthritis doesn't lie. Sunday morning my grandson and i washed and polished our bikes. Coming for a ride my grandson asked. With that pain in both knees and lower back i said no as its going to rain. He checked his weather app and we parted company. That night he sent ne a message. Bike is filthy and i got drenched 🤣🤣🤣. Safe cruising Stewart, shame we cant seem able to design and build an affordable bike in the UK that are as good or better as other makers?
I have 4 Triumph; the "new" one is a Thruxton R with fairing low clips etc. This bike has more quality than those Honda that you mention. Please check the details on your Honda (also Honda s are the best looking of the Japanese brands) from the welding to the plastics of the gauges etc. All low quality and no details. Sorry I do not want to sound aggressive is not my intention but if you compare quality and look...
500 single 650 /850 twin but Enfield stole the show.
Norton should produce budget quality bikes to sell volume numbers to support the luxury models. Like Triumph speedtwins to Thurxtons.
Well said Stuart. The only machine I would consider buying right now is an RE Shitgun. Best value ‘real’ bike on the market.
Keep up the good work.
I hope the "Shitgun" was a typo 😂
I have really come to appreciate your insights on the motorcycle industry as a whole and the business in general. It's easy to fall into the advertising hype that all manufacturers use and loose sight of the reality of what motorcycles are and where their future lies. Please keep up the good work.
I only ever bought a new bike once and I was living in Jersey, so the price was UK tax free. (£7.500 ZZR1100 D2) Every other bike has been up to and no more than £4,000. It was always a low cost form of transport, for commute & holiday, but mainly used to just clear my mind of all of life's daily crap.
Excellent video Stuart.
Asking questions we rarely consider in our busy lives nowadays.
What Norton should do to really kick it off, build them in India, make a slightly better quality version of a Royal Enfield Interceptor or GT, build for the masses but at a slightly higher price and quality, good gear but not too expensive, lose the elite tag, get them out their in high numbers. I think RE hit the nail on the head with the Interceptor, awesome bike at a great price.
Couldn't agree more Stuart, only said to my son a few days ago the Norton need to get into the affordable but fun market of bikes and start making some money.
At 38.000.000, I'd say there in trouble.
There bikes are far too expensive, and not worth the money they are charging for them.
Scarcity aside, Nortons aren’t worth much less than their current price.
A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I was young! Back then getting on the road on a motorcycle was a fairly simple endeavour. You could just stick L plates on anything up to a fairly nippy 250cc motorcycle and away you went. The only thing you couldn't do, was go on a motorway. Getting a bike was fairly cheap as well, as was insurance. Lots of youngsters back then, went to bikes first to get that taste of independence which only your own personal transport gives you. Getting a car licence back then was much more complicated and time consuming, so people just naturally started on a bike.
These days of course, even getting started on a bike is lot more complicated with all the licence and training requirements that there are today. You might as well get a car licence for all the trouble getting a bike licence is worth. So there just aren't the numbers turning to bikes in the first place today. Some but not nearly enough. When I'm out and about on my bike, I can't help but notice the demographic who are riding bikes these days, it's just a fact. But then, I hear some loud clapped out bike coming down the road, with some young whipper-snapper dressed in an old leather jacket, jeans and trainers. Flogging the engine to death, attitude flapping in the wind! And I can't help but smile. Maybe there's hope after all?
Thank you for your sober assessment of Norton, a motorcycle that has been dear to my heart since I was a teenager a long time ago. I must point out, however, that Norton at it’s hay day was an expensive, hand built, niche brand. My Commando was similar in price to a BMW or Ducati when new, about $2200 in 1974 which is in the $16,000 to $25,000 range measured by today’s depreciated dollar. However, Norton had been winning races for decades and its bikes were generally believed to be the fastest, best cornering bikes available and offered an unparalleled, visceral experience to the serious biker.
A forensic narrative again Stuart. Excellent viewpoint cutting through the hype of nostalgia and revealing the bare bones that small capacity motorcycles and in particular Royal Enfield are the sensible way forward to motorcycling.
From Kentucky USA...Stuart, I really enjoy your videos. British engineering is the foundation of Western Civilization. Reviving the classic motorcycle brands is a very gratifying process and I hope Norton makes the cut. If you ever get a chance to come here we can show you some outstanding riding experiences.
I took a truck in for service and was chatting with the owner who's son was working at norton under Garner. This was around 2015. He told me about customers bikes in for repair having parts borrowed to fit to other bikes. Anyone's deposit was used to fund bikes that were waiting for delivery after their money was already spent
I think the reality is this. The Norton we see now is NOT the Norton of the future. The job of the UK factory is to keep the brand going and raise profile. Remember that Norton is owned by a huge Indian bike maker, so I think right now they are working on a range of cheaper 650cc bikes to be made in India. Until they arrive, these super expensive and impartial iconic bikes are here to keep the brand going.
Maybe, but they have to generate enough profit and buyers to make the effort worth it. Right now they are nowhere close. I see BSA not really taking off either for a different reason: The market for old-school and retro motorcycles is a bit saturated right now.
Mr. Fillingham- I am in agreement with your analysis of the Norton business plan. I too hope that they will offer motorcycles that realistically can sell to prospective buyers, but I fear that their current business model cannot lead to success.
The foot placement on nearly all modern bikes is too far back. At 6'2" and aged 65, I really struggle on modern bikes. I can easily and comfortably ride almost any bike from the 50s, 60s and 70s.
At that height you are too tall for the 60s and older bikes. The bikes for tall people are in my opinion ugly; like BMW gs and the likes.. Look like birds not motorcycles.
@@TheReverb1 The old Laverda Jota was a tall bike with a 33" seat height, the reason was Massimo Laverda was 6' 6" tall and he made Laverda's at a height that he was comfotable riding. Laverda's were quality hand built and thus expensive machines. I used to own a Laverda 1200 triple, it was a fantastic machine to ride.
Raptors @@TheReverb1
@@davidmacgregor5193 yeah those Jota s looked good; also the old Tridents looked very good and were more "lively" than the CB750s
Good video Stuart, sadly I feel Norton is a Dead duck as their bikes are always to me far too much money and then matched with quality issues where they were sold with this hand built quality image. You could argue that robotic manufacture as used in the car industry takes out the human mistake factor, or the employee having had a heavy night before and not really working with care.
If the Indian owners a have lost / invested close to £100 m as your saying they are never going to get that back.
Small volume sales mean you’re always crippled with ongoing costs unless you charge a huge premium.
I don’t know how many staff Norton have but 200 at an average wage of £30,000 is £6m a year. Never mind building running cost and of course their investment in machinery etc payback on equipment you can see the debt just growing and growing. Payback requires volume sales their cost won’t generate.
If you were to line up 4 manufacturers of high priced bikes say Ducati, BMW, Triumph, Norton all with a new model launching next year, what order would they be placed if looking at meeting delivery date, performance/quality issues, servicing network? Where would you feel safest placing your deposit?
Sadly Norton have a long way to go and I don’t think they will get there.
Thanks Stu. That was a very interesting view on how we are seeing these brands again. They were actually finished with. I wonder how it will carry on when there are no longer any people who were buying or seeing these brand the first time around? Im currently on my 3rd new RE.
You talk a lot of sense Stuart as always
I think you might find Norton will be going Global in the near future which would change things for them dramatically. The current Commando will cease production some time later this year as each bike is SVA approved, so can only be made in limited numbers and sold here in the UK. I am sure new bikes will be coming along but don't under estimate the wealth or what people will pay for a Heritage brand like Norton especially in the far east and the USA. Norton has a huge reputation in the USA for example. In my experience, Indians are very business savvy and are mega careful with their money and I am sure they will have done due diligence on their investment here in the UK. Even Royal Enfield has a sizeable UK presence and I believe most of their new models are designed in the UK. It will be interesting to see what Norton do in the coming years. I have heard they are working on smaller homologation bikes to sell to global markets but I guess that has always been on the cards for them...
Given my Mum and Dad did their courting on an old Norton Dominator I should be all-in for the brand ... but I'm not. I'm all-in for Moto Guzzi. For half the price of a Commando Guzzi will sell you a 850 V7 that only suffers a bit in comparison due to more basic suspension and is usable as a daily tide should that be what you want, or for slightly less then Commando money they'll sell you a V100 that manages to combine old-school character with good (but not overwhelming) power and a modern ride. It took two buyouts (one by Aprilia, then Piaggio buying Aprilia) but the Italians have managed to keep one of their most famous old brands in local ownership and still relevant today.
No idea about the british/india relation. However I do hope TVS can make models that work and look like what Norton would want. We have seen royal enfield make it work, we have seen benelli and moto morini make it work. See no reason norton+tvs couldn't.
True Indian motorcycle enthusiasts are very fond of British brands of motorcycles as much as the British are, cos India also started their automobile/motorcycle journey with the British brands and are as much emotional as the British, and really dont want any of the iconic brands to die out and become history. We are just as proud as any British would be to see the old brands resurrected and its a great time for motorcyclists, so just try to enjoy this time to the fullest before electric motorcycles take over. Cheers
I can't say I'm surprised it's quite a niche sector they are aiming at, especially some of their high-end bikes,with High end prices to match, I would have one tomorrow if I won the lottery.
Having once been a Norton enthusiast in the 70's I purchase a Norton Commando 850 for 2500 USD. The bike needed lots of love to make it work the way it should. I added a Barnett clutch as the Brass plate clutch slipped impressively when you hit the throttle. Also the bike would not go past 5000 RPMs due to the mufflers being too restrictive. I added a pair of Dunstall's and that was resolved. Then I broke several transmission counter shafts due to the shaft being like glass from the hardness. I reduced the hardness of the shaft and tuned the twin Amal's. Then the Bike ran properly. I loved that bike until it was caught in a garage fire. I always loved the Norton brand as it was legendary when I was young. Now I watched several of the reviews and the bike just is not what it should be at the cost. I do hope they start making an Atlas that people can afford to save the brand. I also hope they fix the Commando.
I agree with everything you’ve said Stuart! A great video with a fair summery of the Norton approach to motorcycle production. I hope they go for a bike that will be suitable for the common man, as opposed to a rich man’s trinket. I think the clock is definitely ticking for them. Let’s hope they wake up before it’s too late.
Excellent review! My father said "not all antiques are worth preserving". I think that applies to companies too.. I love my 1973 MG Midget but BMC? whoa. The 60's and 70's were a funky time which killed off many interesting brands what with the energy "crisis". Focus on safety etc eventually brought more reliable cars. We are facing again an "energy crisis" told to us by governments everywhere. Here in the USA EV sales have peaked and are now decreasing. The folly of government made charging stations is highlighted in the news regularly as tax-payer boondoggles. The high costs of Don Quixote windmills and wildlife frying solar "farms" are spiking energy rates and creating brownouts and blackouts. People are slowly waking up and rejecting these things. The market size in USA is huge. I do not see ICE going away nor motorcycling in general at any point. I will add that if share holders in Audi want to pay for Ducati to make gorgeous machines and subsidize the costs, then let them do it! In fact, I encourage it!
The Triumph brand appears to be a hit over here in the US. I came very close to buying a Trident 660 and could have afforded to do so. What stopped me was dealer support. Too far away. My dealer is in the same county I live in and sell Kawasaki, Yamaha, KTM, GasGas and Husqvarna motorcycles. It's why I'm not riding an RE motorcycle also. I do really think the Speed 400 is a terrific starter bike. I don't think Norton motorcycles will be built at scale and sold here in my lifetime.
Insightful as ever. I really don’t understand why they invest so much to sell bikes that won’t sell in great numbers. I can’t see Norton surviving on these figures. BSA is an interesting one, their bikes look nice, but absolutely nowhere near me sells them. Why they haven’t tried to get in with MotoGB or one of the other big dealerships groups is beyond me. Hopefully they will or I fear they will disappear again. I hope not though.
stuart, wise and well thought out comments. Sad to read the truth, but it IS the truth. My heart beats happily when I see the Nortons because I remember the originals. Brings back thoughts of my youth. As you said I’m a diminishing resource for motorcycle sellers, I am 75 years old. I took my 883 Harley Sportster out for a ride the other day and although it was pleasant, no freeway riding, I had to contend with impatient car drivers. I’m afraid the younger and next generation riders will not be interested eventually. I think RE is the icon of the older rider. It has the soul of our simpler pleasure of being out in the wind with the reliability of the modern. Motorcycles to our generation are a way of life. I don’t know if it will continue in years to come.
Hi Stewart, I really appreciate you raising this sort of conversation, and wish more chanels would look deeper into the current state and future of motorcycling in the UK. I have no problem with the move towards lower capacity bikes, and as a matter of fact, I applaud it. Seeing for myself how smaller motorcycles are used and utilised around the world it a little disappointing how smaller bikes are looked down on in the UK 15:18 , and you're not considered to be a real Motorcyclist unless you ride a big bike. The drawn-out process to gaining a bike licence is obviously not helping the sales of motorcycles in the uk, and the green agenda is a major problem. I have ridden electric motorcycles and the disconnect i felt with the machine is horrible. Apart from probably abs i don't like rider aids on bikes and with motorcycle manufacturers adding more and more onto every size of bike it would be great to see someone bold enough to utilise the Norton brand to build a striped back 350 - 500 cc bike capturing the emotions of their bygone days of glory, a little bit like the Royal Enfield Continental GT.
I love the 400-500CC Range with smaller lighter bikes. I have a fantic cabellero 500 and its so easy to chuck around and easy to work on and is light weight, 150kg wet. £6500 new.
I think the UK has just followed America I think things will just keep getting bigger and bigger. Cars and bikes in capacity. I feel the choice of small bikes has been limited in the UK. I would like to see kawasaki do a 400x. And I would prefer the CB400X or NX400 as sold In other countries. And how nice would a 400 transalp have been with a V twin engine. I bought my bike 10 years ago now and got an 800. At the time the cb500x wasn't the bike it is now. (Usd forks twin disks and 19" front wheel) and the 650 bikes were heavy and basic vs my 800. Seems people generally wouldn't even except a 250cc nowadays. Maybe it's just such a big deal passing the test people want to get the most from it with a big bike.
Well said. Puts it all into perspective. I wouldn’t buy a Norton due to the negative feeling about the brand.
Take an idea like the 650 interceptor , make it look like the old style 850 Norton Commando interstate , add a few nice bits, rev counter ,fuel gauge, build it to a price like RE ,and you will have a winner ! Then once you have built up the name again , then MAY BE, build these over priced money pit bikes ,which is really not a good idea in the declining motorcycle sales world .
Also remove the electric starter and reintroduce the kickstarter from the old 850 Commando. Then you probably don't need a lock on that thing 😆
UK roads are hardly fit for motorcycle purpose, hence increased popularity of cars, especially around towns. And Norton has been a toxic brand for about 20years now. Except for the antivirus software?
AV software is the virus
I had a good chat with the Norton lads at the bike show a few months back. I just didn’t have faith due to previous goings on before TVS came in. I know TVS cleaned up the messed left behind and honoured undelivered bikes, fixed them etc, so hats off to them there. They have the £2k off to drop the price but there’s a ton of pre owned with minimal mileage for sale, some dealers or ex dealers with new stock still have the same bike a year plus and the rest.
If I did get a Commando just to add to the collection, it will be a mercy purchase but I can’t see the youngsters even looking at Nortons, it’s going to be the 50+ mob with a bit of cash n]but that will end up on Autotrader the following year or earlier…..
Magnette is it at 11:55? ❤
Again, the voice of reason. Great ideas, I totally agree.
I think these "premium" brands should all think about introducing some scooters in their lineup. Some better-made ones, maybe a bit more expensive, but still much cheaper than their other products. Maybe motorcycles will be dead in 15 years, but scooters won't. I think they will still have a place simply bcs of logistic reasons, too many cars on the roads. Too many traffic jams.
Nice one Stuart, Nortons new owners should have put their efforts into the Atlas range, under 10k middleweight that created a great deal of interest when it was unveiled. They would have sold a shed load. What Norton offer at the moment are niche bikes for the rich..
Hi Stu, Maybe the Norton brand has been seen as not only a motorcycle manufacturer but also it can be used to create a fashion brand clothes, perfume, etc. The same model that has been used when Harley Davidson was bought 3 decades ago. It is not the motorcycles but the brand name that has value. Ride safe and hopefully some good weather will come.
Brilliant video as always Stuart and I agree, I would have bought an Atlas at the drop of a hat 😌
The trouble is that motorcycle manufacturing has turned out very expensive machines that few can afford. In the old days they made a lower priced basic machine for those less privalidged. One thing else is there are no British producers of 125 cc machines.
Bike riding is basically a hobby
Unless it's a 125cc or something very small the cost is more than a car in most cases. When a car gets 60mpg £0 Road tax tyres last 30k and cost half as much than a pair of bike tyres. And the safety and dryness of a shell around you. And helmet, comms and Bluetooth, are all normal. And heated seats. Motorcycles have only just got a 12v socket.
Motorcycles as hobby is certainly a first world reality but the vast majority of motorcycles are used for necessity and survival.
@UncleWally3 they could be a good way of getting around but in a first world country its just to inconvenient.
Absolutely lovely bike BUT the issues around paint and fit on some of the parts with the RRP is just too much of a problem. The second hand market on these is a much better option.
Except that there is no spares backup whatsoever and there are some horror stories when it comes to reliability. Read the owner forums, it’s fact. The Garner bikes have to be cared for by literally a handful of independent specialists, trawling eBay for bits and relying on forum members. Most used Nortons in the classifieds have next to no mileage on them and you have to ask why. Not good.
Yep I think that’s the worry. There’s even issues around Triumph spares sometimes so I’d really worry about Norton. Nope when I upgrade from my Conti it’s gonna be a Bobber or a Scrambler for me I guess.
All very valid points, even with a £2000 discount at £27k Norton's are way too expensive. The bikes need to be modular and mass produced (maybe a 500) in India which like RE 350 can be dressed up in different ways to appeal to appeal to more riders. The BSA is a fine example of almost getting it right, the styling and some of the parts are just quite awful. I've just recently picked up a Chinese bike and only time will tell if it is a wise choice; on initial ride experience I would say yes (I'm in the Algarve now). Am I bothered that it doesn't say Triumph/Norton/BSA or RE, not in the least. Harley, Indian, Buell, Polaris and Victory are all heading the same way.
In the heyday of British motorbikes, they were bought by the masses who couldn't afford cars but needed transport. Therefore, motorbikes sold in massive numbers which gave the manufacturers a good income on reasonably priced machines sold in large volume. To try and make motorbikes now in small numbers with defunct makers names is madness. The Indian Royal Enfield is produced to suit their market and priced so that the masses can afford to buy them instead of cars. Making super expensive motorbikes for niche markets is never going to be a good idea. Not rocket science is it ?
Totally agree, motorcycle manufacturers going in the wrong direction.
I think you will find that will be the shareholders where the money went
I love the overall looks of the new 961 Commando. Still cannot get over the clear urine sample double cups by the handles. What were they thinking??!! Solid black would at least looked much better.
Yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices....
What do they expect, trying to sell very expensive motor cycles to people who aren’t filthy rich. Good riddance.
At the time that I bought my 06 Yamaha warrior, I could have bought three for the price of a Harley. I still have my warrior, it has 101k miles on it, still runs like new, has never broke down, has never leaked a drop of oil. Ive owned 4 Harleys and could break one every time I rode one hard. I made a great choice.
TVS has the financial ability to simply follow the roadmap Siddhartha Lal laid down with Royal Enfield, i.e. low-cost manufacturing in India combined with UK based engineering design and R&D. Not sure why they just don’t do it. Some internal conflictions, perhaps. It’s really their only option. Make a serious run at it or close up shop. Nice episode, Stuart!
Everything you've said after 09:15 is true in case of public sentiments and stuff but i don't think a proper businessman or a corporation would take decisions based on emotions, them taking ownership of these brands could be because of their global presence or brand value which the buyer brand may or may not have so they could be after that and of course getting a brand with long history comes with long chains of nostalgia hungry bunches😅
The automotive industry, be it cars or motorcycles has a long history of putting boardroom hubris a long way before market dynamics.
You can just about be guaranteed that the current Norton mob haven't done an ounce of market research. They built it because they wanted to build it. Yep, it sounds silly, but history is littered with examples of exactly the same thing.
I love the look of new Commando and did look into getting one(bought an Indian Chief Sport instead), what put me off was previous reliability reputation and no dealers local to me(Scotland). While not cheap I didnt think the Commando was excessively priced. I think there's room for both premium and budget motorcycles in the retro market. The loses don't look good tbf, really hope they can make it work
Exactly Stuart, they need to follow the Triumph model of doing business & better hurry up.....
Nice ride out to Paull.
Garner conceptually got some things right. He had the V4SS as the extra special £44k model but a V4RR at £28k, so still expensive but in the same area as a top R1 or Ducati 1299. Then he had the Atlas 650 Ranger and 650 Nomads for around £10k. It also had the old Commando's which seemed to still be popular with some, and kept a nod to the past. So purely conceptually, (nothing to do with company ethics, production etc) but it was a good concept. TVS has dropped the entire concept and gone for a very narrow premium, near boutique, business model. Ironically that model would work in Garner's old manufacturing area at Donington where as Garner's model would work in a bigger, modern manufacturing development, which TVS appears to have been building. Norton (to me) can only work as a premium mainstream brand. It can be expensive and 'quite' exclusive but it won't work as a near-boutique brand that somehow needs to sell volume to survive. It's trying to shoot left and right at the same time.
This was a vanity purchase, intended to give TVS some Euro Credibility. The walked in eyes wide shut. However in 23 /24 TVS made record profits and recorded their highest ever revenue. Even if they wanted out of Norton, I can't see punters beating the door down to buy. The real story here is that a lot of manufacturers are still relying on the retro Brit /muscle bike/UJM vibe which feels well past its sell by date, plus in the UK no one in the industry is applying enough pressure to make biking affordable for younger riders.
The comments have pretty well nailed it - few people could afford this Commando, and for those who could, one is depending on an even smaller bunch of blokes that remember the great age of Brit road bikes. (Velocette, anyone?) However - any bets on what the resale value of the black beauty shown in the video will be, over time?
I can neither understand how Triumph has evolved into such a success nor understand how Norton has devolved into such a mess. While I’m also unsure about what its boundaries and focus would be, an analysis of the mess is certainly worthy of an MBA thesis.
I would only add that I think they need to add an adventure bike their lineup. Adv bikes must the biggest sellers these days.
well actually Stuart, I like the old bikes. I am not in a hurry anymore these days, and I do not expect to die off anytime soon. They are just a different kind of ride. Also, I do not like inline4s. However, I was looking at a modern Enfield recently, and found it very comfortable, The days of the Nortons, BSA's etc are long ago, and they were brought out as workhorses. I did look at the new ones quite sone years ago, an have to agree that they are all too expensive.
This is from a US perspective. 1.) I think Triumph is threading the needle well in their price point matched to their quality. I do agree that the 400 series was a much needed entry point for the brand. 2.) Norton's biggest problem IMO was that its an expensive bike that does not at all match the quality. They tried to scale too big. They should have started as a boutique or borderline bespoke retro bike, that is stone cold known for its style and quality. IE the Rolex of motorcycles. 3.) I don't think motorcycling is going to die in the US, but I do see a lot of changes. It is definitely street bike heavy here. While out riding this past weekend I saw A LOT of street bikes.
Lastly, when inflation is taken into account motorcycles aren't as expensive compared to their 10, 20+ year old counter parts as people think. Yes obviously the absolute price has gone up, but adjusted for inflation they aren't WAY more expensive. They are just really expensive for folk not lucky/fortunate enough to also get the pay bumps. It should be obvious but I see a lot of people complain that 2005 they got XXX motorcycle for $8,000 and now its $13,000...well ya, and in 1985 you could have got the same bike for $4,000. (BLS inflation calculator)
Triumph are going down the same road i have always liked and have had 3 Triumps my ST Sprint 1050 then my America both bought new and lastly my Thunderbird LT mainly because they had 20 Litre + fuel tanks so i could do at least 200 miles before having to fill up but now most of them are either Retro with 12 to 14 Litre tanks or Adventure bikes with 34" seats not much use to someone with 29" legs
I'm convinced that you're correct regarding dead British brand names and vanity projects. Similar can be said of China now selling us Morris Group cars - although from what I've read they're maintaining the standards associated with the brand as it slowly sank beneath the waves 😂. The saddest part is that motorcyclists and ICE motorcycles are dying together and won't be around in a decade or two - that sounded awful when said out load. Better get out and enjoy them while we can, in both senses.
I had bikes for over 50 years, I don’t think that the younger ones want them anymore, too expensive
insurance is unreal and the state of the roads and the amount of traffic it takes the fun away .
My last 5 years on the road, you can’t believe the amount of of car drivers that fail to see you,
so many distractions in the new cars that the drivers ain’t going to see a motorcycle
Well said Stewart it seems to me its only RE that are reading the future, keep up the good work.
There are some Chinese companies also reading the future my friend.
I couldn't agree with you more. They have stuck a whopping great cork in the hole in the market and it's now watertight. And the big four still haven't come up with an answer.
Same for Indian. They are cutting shifts. I live where they're made.
Voice of common sense 👍
I agree, Nortons are a desirable bike but too expensive. Brit companies make "niche" bikes that are expensive, look at CCM for example. Love the comparison with Asda end of isle stuff! 🙂
Have not owned or ridden a motorcycle for 32 years now, so my "era" if you like was the 80's when I rode Yamaha's. If I bought a bike today it would probably be a Yamaha, hows that for loyalty! I love the old British bikes to look at but I would never buy one, they seem old, heavy, slow and reminiscent of a bygone era of the 1950's.
I think TVS is thinking long term, they said as much from their publicity.
I'm sure they will introduce some Indian made Nortons before long.
Most Triumph's are made in Thailand but not all. I reckon Norton will be a similar operation with Premium bikes made here but new models will be front India.
Unless they do that soon I can't see a long term future for Norton.
Affordability is key RE have got it spot on also a good point is not many young people taking up motorcycles 😏 great content 👍🏻 I wish Gardner would have more punishment but they always seem to get away with it especially taking peoples pension
the whole point of motorbikes is you get more bang for your buck than a car - literally. This is the reason the high majority of people buy motorcycles. Norton has forgotten this and a lot of brands are going the same way.
Absolutely, its obvious they're ridiculously overpriced and expensive and only a very small niche of people can afford them, this happened with as you said Hesketh etc and Vincent would be another example. They need to be more competitive with their fancy prices or die, its as simple as that 🤔🙄
Norton can only sell motorcycles in the UK because of homologation and other issues, and they don't have enough outlets in the UK either, so unless they can get more UK dealers and start selling bikes abroad then unfortunately they are doomed...IMO...
Norton was definitely the most beautiful bike in classic category right. But it had seat like cement and many others little kinks which in the practicality lacked so much it. A carbonfiber mudguard for what exactly..?
They should have done a good less cc version something like the classic 350 stabilized in the market, after their disastrous run with previous owner. Rather it looks like then added all apple in one basket and waited for one to get rot.
No, the Moto Guzzi in its red and black trim was easily the most beautiful bike on the road.
@@michaelreid2329 i forgot that , i have to change my decision now 😂.
Loved that rev meter
A couple of days ago a long time classic biking friend send me some film of himself riding his 'Red' Dominator 99. The Dominator line are the bikes Norton should have reintroduced.
Royal Enfield have shown the way, have been extremely successful building...and modernising the Bullet series, later the Intercepter, albeit not a direct copy of the original..Sales have proved it was the correct business decision.
Although the Commando was a success in the late sixties l believe using modern metallurgy, and design practices on the engine, plus uprated suspension, even the Featherbed...(which is still in production)... the older Dominator would have been a far better platform on which to reintroduce the 'Unapproachable Norton' Not just for nostalgia, me being one of them, but the newer riders who have no interest in a 'Crotch Rockets'... and like you, ride for the sheer pleasure of riding a motorcycle along the Country lanes/roads...
I don’t know much about Norton but the bike is likeable, however I find the forks massive, unnecessary gold, and not in keeping with with the style, almost a hybrid between a performance and a custom. But the main point for me is that everybody will have the bike they like and love, I will never judge anybody’s choice, I will simply hope they are having the time of their lives with the choice they make
If they pitched at becoming another "Triumph" they'd be on to something: the same type of pricing and model range. Keep a Headquarters in the UK (Midlands obviously) purely for brand reinforcement "where the bikes are designed" and build them overseas. Benelli & Moto Morini do this so can state "designed in Italy". The chinese build quality on their bikes is pretty good too from what I've observed, and they look smart.