IMAGERY AND LORE IN METAL | Lock Horns Redux - Episode 5
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
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Artistic integrity? rejecting fame? marketing gimmick?
This week on Lock Horns Redux Sam Dunn is joined by guests Liisa Ladouceur and Sarah Kitteringham (BangerTV / Smoulder) to discuss the importance of imagery and lore in metal.
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I could have watched this ep for twice the running time, or even as a doco. There’s some really interesting psychology to it that was really briefly touched on at the beginning - masks and makeup give a lot of people the confidence to become different, more ‘interesting’ or outgoing character. Also: quality Ghost content. Also: a festival of legs! This ep made me happy.
"Gene Simmons is a pretty unlikable human being."
Tell it like it is sister!!!
Gross: I'd like to think the personality you presented on our show today is a persona that you've affected as a member of KISS, but that you're not nearly as obnoxious when you're at home or with friends.
Simmons: Fair enough, and I'd like to think that the boring lady who's talking to me now is a lot sexier and more interesting than the one who's doing NPR, studious and reserved.
He is the king of tools
Add Paul Stanley to your comment,brother...any one who is obsessed with himself to the point that Mr.Stanley is ( the way he puts the bumeap on Ace Frehley & Peter Criss) get my tongue lashing every time!
“Pretty unlikable” is putting it lightly
Back in the 80's i used to buy LP's on the strength of the art and band name. Had limited access to hearing an album without purchasing it.
1979 thru 2005 Tower Records, Music Plus, Wherehouse Records and local stores in SoCal took all my money because of all the "Blind Purchases" I made. Mostly because of the Cover Art (unless I read about them in trade mags). Good 'ol days . . . but for awhile a Progressive Rock/Prog Metal internet station was a great source (1999 to 2012), and now UA-cam searches, and creating various "Themed" music playlists on my channel.
Thank goodness for the used record stores. Those made the days of having to go by album art and logo cheaper when purchasing music in the 80s and 90s.
@jupit ng. I did buy quite a few German speed and thrash metal LP's which were disappointing.
In regards to "a uniform", I generally wear a plain white t as it makes me easier to find at concerts when I'm everyone's ride.
OK, I watched the video on imagery, when's the lore video?
Yeah same, I was more excited about the "lore" part. Was hoping to hear some quality Black Sabbath/Dio discussion.
@@foggybrainmusic i am pretty sure thats not the lore they intended to talk about.
Cultural and Historical lore
I think lore could still have its own episode after this.
One of my favorite modern examples is Imperial Triumphant
1968 - " I AM THE GOD OF HELL FIRE!!!"
....every black metal band's makeup design started right there.
War Pig Spazz joked about Kiss being the first black metal band but Screamin' Jay Hawkins and Arthur Brown really pioneered that "possessed corpse" look.
What about bands such as Jefferson Airplane ( Grace Slick : the first metal singer) ,Amboy Dukes & Blue Cheer?
They added to sound of Metal...
Blue Cheer was the volume of metal
@@ConvincingPeople Screaming Jay Hawkins brought the Voodoo element into the conception of Metal.....Arthur Brown brought the psuedo operatic vocals to Acid Rock...which wventually became metal
1958: I PUT A SPELL ON YOU! BECAUSE YOU'RE MIIIIIIIIIIIINNNEEE!!!
All heavy music, especially any with a theatrical quality, begins right there! (along with Link Wray's "Rumble", of course)
Absolutely love when you go for the more academic/philosophical angle, I think metal heads of all people can handle it. Back to the roots, Metal a Headbangers journey emphasized anthropology.
Portal has one of the most successful at keeping their image at the front and have not let anyone know who they are. Their image is pretty integral to their music.
Glad someone mentioned them
Portal’s Victorian imagery is great. And, The imagery helps the listener focus on the music. First time I heard portal, was similar to first time with captain beefheart’s trout mask replica. Portal are giants-beyond genre, imo.
There has, and always will be imagery/lore in metal. Some of it is REAL, and some is gimmicky/marketing. With the 50th anniversary of Sabbath’s debut - we can start there. The Maple Durham Mill motif. Lore, legend, and definately not a gimmick. The band was trying to capture an image for their sound. It worked well. Tony Iommi, has even said - that horror films were a big influencer - when bestowing the Golden God Award - to Sir Christopher Lee.
Ok, that was a great Part 1, Imagery. Hopefully Part 2, Lore is in the works? Paganism, counterculture, anarchy, rebellion, satanism and satanic panic, Tolkien and fantasy and sci-fi, politics, anger and depression and angst. I love hearing nerds talk about metal. Thanks.
Also, how do we define "lore"? Do we define it as legends and stories (real or imagined) AROUND a band? For example, all the legends surrounding Varg, Euronymous, and everything leading up to that night at that apartment? Dead allegedly believing he was some kind of zombie creature with frozen black ichor in his veins, and this belief in his own living death alienating him from the world until he decided he couldn't be here anymore? The insanity that surrounds Silencer, and Nattramn in particular (him being committed for burying an axe in a little girl's head in a psychotic break-which apparently actually happened, but it was actually his brother that did it and it just got attached to him-and him consequently cutting off his hands and replacing them with pig hooves)? Do we define it as mythology a band builds around themselves? Like the mythos about Babymetal and the Fox God? The Protomen basing their entire everything around creating theatrical metal about Megaman? Everything about Dethklok and Belzebubs? Jon Nodveidt using Dissection's music as a tool to evangelize the Luciferian cult he cofounded? Is it focusing in on a particular lyrical theme and building on it, like Immortal with their entire Blashyrkh mythology or Coheed and Cambria with the Amory Wars?
Cool to see Lisa back on Banger!!!! And Sara taking off her first outfit!! Anywayz, when bands do it right it adds to the music! When Ghost was first out, I loved it that u didn't know what they looked like. And now that I've seen Tobias and the earlier members, if they didn't have the masks & imagery, it would take away from the live show for me, cuz they looked nerdy. Also, Avatar and their look helps make their live show cooler. So if done right, imagery can be a big difference!
I think that imagery in metal matters because it brings out the darkness,the love for supernatural,it sort of visually reinforces the message.
When it comes to corpse paint, I've got a growing notion that younger bands draw more inspiration from a post apocalyptic look. It looks more like smears of oil, dirt and blood than war paint or abstract ghost faces
Chrisploitation also, I wouldn’t go as far as Sarah and say it signifies a bad band, because there are some newer bands that still utilize that image because they’re following a more traditional approach to their music and so it fits.
7:23 - that's why we love you, brother!
Loved this episode. It was fun and interesting. Keep it up guys.
Great episode interesting insights by all of you 🖤🤘!
Is there anyway that Sarah can mention her band more in the next episode?
32:26 There is Asagraum from the Netherlands that wear corpse paint and have 2 released solid trad-black metal albums IMO
Really cool episode!
Thanks for this episode, a lot of interesting thoughts were shown here. I personally think, that with the masks, imagery and lore - all pragmatic arguments about not being as recognizable publicly aside - it really all boils down to what Mr. Taylor of Slipknot said in an interview a long time ago about why they're wearing masks. It's about unleashing all the things you couldn't do if you were yourself. I really think that is what a lot of our beloved metal music, especially the extreme subgenres is partially about. Listening to, or even seeing an Amon Amarth gig or album you can be a Viking, screaming "raise your shield wall" if you like and feel good about it. Same goes for all the black metal stuff out there, being so occult/cold/brutal in its imagery - to my understanding it's about catering to a sort of socially rejected side of the listener's (maybe even band member's) personality. Which btw has the effect on me, that if i like a band's aesthetic, I'm more likely to fall in love with their music - as happened for me with Lord of the Lost last year.
I liken bands with masks/makeup eventually showing the face behind that to pro wrestling. Years ago, the extent of the fakeness of it was closely guarded. As time went on, it became more and more okay to give a peek behind the curtain to the point where now WWE openly talks about what's going on behind the scenes. While maybe you lose some of the magic being presented, you gain an appreciation for what goes into making the art of it.
Like those boots Sarah 🤘
And those fishnets wow!!!
Great show!
I would have liked to hear more about the image of metal fans. There are certain visual cues that signify one is part of the in group, long hair, tattoos, patches, etc. That to me is more interesting than the theatrical image on stage
I think Zizek has a good lacanian book on masks and the way they work to bring the subjective or part of the subjective to the exterior.
It's important for a band to carve out an image to give a more complete experience. Great music makes a band and can be enough, but people want to be captivated at a show. It's why bands use fog machines, laser/strobe lights, projectors, etc. It can be the cherry on top that really brings the whole performance together. That's my two cents anyways. A band I feel worth mentioning moving forward is Imperial Triumphant, so unique.
I miss Lisa and the cow bell from hell, getting nostalgic here! Great episode!
I think for the audience is just get the feeling of belong to something, interesting point on Slipknot, even knowing who they are, it doesnt matter, in live shows they are a bunch of anonymous people as we, It is very relatable.
I miss her too in this way you described.
I love you guys!
Great discussion, but needed more GWAR.
frostogtaake agreed. I’m not even a big Gwar fan, but there is not a single metal band with as big of a visual importance as gwar. Lore was interwoven with this as well.
Welcome back Lisa
Litourgia is with a hard g. Sam said it right the first time.
Interesting episode, though I think this subject deserves a lengthier treatment. There is a ton more to say about imagery (and image) in metal beyond masks and makeup. I would also love to hear a deeper discussion focused on the lore side of things. For example, take a deep dive into the influence of science fiction, fantasy, and horror (or even Lovecraft specifically) on the lyrics and aesthetics of metal.
Very interesting episode. I'd never considered the masks or intricate outfits as a form of anonymity and how that can relate to a band having a certain mystery about them. Plenty of interesting bands do it such as those mentioned but also some less well known bands such as Darkspace.
Sarah 😈🎸
glad to see Lisa back for another episode!
Why is this not live anymore?? Does anybody know? This was pre Co-Vid so I want to know.
I honestly think this episode could have gone longer with more examples. There was a band back in the 2000s called Battlelore who sang all about Tolkien's LotR's world and while the influence of Tolkien on metal is a whole different discussion, Battlelore went one step further dressing up on stage as elves, wizards, knights & wizards. Like Alice Cooper, they didn't just sing about it, they became it. Another example is a number of folk metal bands & bands that are very influenced by their homeland's culture. In Extremo dress in midevil style garb while on stage to add to the the influence of their more classical instruments. A band I recently discovered is Cemicon from Mexico dress very much like their Aztec ancestors and use that along with their traditional instruments. I even once saw a video of Death Metal band who dressed up like superheroes with capes, tights and outside underwear. Just saying, there's so much more.
lisa is a so smart. having that goth voice has been missed.
When y’all gonna rank a bands catalogue again? You should do testament when Titans of Creation comes out. I just wear what’s comfy
There's a reason why there's so much overlap between metal and wrestling. The pro wrestling biz is based on suspension of disbelief and image, and that is the exact same for metal too. In many respects, the leaders of these bands are 'gimmicked' and playing characters based on their bands 'storyline'.
Disappointed this episode didn't focus too much on the 'lore' portion of the topic. Would have been nice to talk about the back stories and world building that some bands create for their careers or albums. For example, The overarching storyline of how all King Diamonds solo albums are interlinked recounting the story of his major characters (Missy, Abigail, Jonathan, etc) with recurring themes, dates, families and places referenced throughout the discography, or how each Maiden cover shows the progression of Eddy from young hudlum to going off the rails after a lobotomy and getting super powers. Or about how the Vektor albums telegraph the downfall of the band and smartly are a metaphor for the vocalist and how isolated he became as the albums progressed.
Exactly! I know his name is Mark Calaway but when that *GONG* goes off he's The Undertaker
Cool episode of Lock Horns....when you gonna put that Banger coffee mug on sale. As a guy too big for the tshirts, that would be a great way for me to be able to show my support for the channel.
very nice episode, honest and funny
people what are your favorite "HOOD BLACK METAL" bands?
The Tobias Forge behind a curtain interview is funny now considering we all know what he looks like.
In terms of weird costumes and anonymity, the fact that all we know about the founding members of Portal after twenty years of activity is that one of their first names is Chris probably accounts for something. This is also true of their even more aggressively anonymous sister band Grave Upheaval, but in a slightly different capacity: While several members' names and who they've played with have popped up over the years, their actual lineup at any given point is never particularly clear, to the point that one of their members *died* and nobody outside the band is sure what albums he played on or whether he performed with them live.
Thanks
Sarah is a Goddess!
Simp
Great conversation about imagery guys but not really anything about lore. You could do a whole other episode just about the pagan, wiccan, gore influences in a lot of our metal.
Attila Csihar should get more credit for breaking the mold of black metal fashion. From crowns of thorns and branches to covering himself in bandages, potato chip bags, or broken mirrors to dressing up as Bugs Bunny or a Christmas tree, the guy has worn some crazy shit over the years.
Beksinski and other macabre artists i feel really put a hand in the design of a lot of album art.
Hell yeah dude. Beksinski is amazing and you can definitely see his influence on a lot of cover art especially on doom, death, and black metal covers.
The tittle of the videos should have been called THE GIMICS IN METAL.
Jinx from Coven could be a great example though
Tatiana from Jinjer has super cool costumes that are not always black!, I still like the old standing up format, but then again I'm not standing up. Great show again!!!!!!!!
Concept albums!!!
My opinion slipknot is one of those bands that everyone can appreciate in every aspect unless you are just a hater and hate the fact that they are big. They have the shock rock thing, death metal, groove metal, thrash. Theres alot going for slipknot in alot of ways.
I never thought image was a big deal to me, stage show and presence sure, but looks never seemed to matter to me. Then I saw Batushka live at their first US show and then it hit me in retrospect, image really made a difference. Batushka/Derph's music is still good but there really was something to not knowing who tf they were.
Lots of talk about image, but not very much about lore! I feel like there has to be a followup conversation there.
On one hand, you've got the Blind Guardians, Iced Earths, Amon Amarths, and a plethora of folk metal bands who take historic folk tales, mythology, and/or contemporary literature to create images and songs that project these ideas onto the audience. On the other hand you've got bands like Ghost, Rhapsody of Fire, Immortal, and whatever crazy thing Christopher Bowes is involved with at any given time, etc, who have created their own mythology which they weave together across multiple albums, thus creating their own modern-day folk tales.
This is important because it gives people something to latch onto with deeper meaning than just the musical composition, and it's an excellent way to keep the interest up. I mean, who the fuck *doesn't* want to know what happens next after the Zargothrax clone was activated via dialup modem at the end of the latest Gloryhammer album?
I agree with the follow part
Imagery matters depending on the person. To some, it's just the music, but for me, while I don't need visuals, it can be a part of the live experience. Like seeing what that album cover is in person, not just on the cover itself or the audio. It is entertainment overall. Like Loudwire said recently, metal does have a relationship with horror, which is usually visual. That's why I defend Slipknot and Mushroomhead's costumes, but look at people with contempt when they criticize them while praising other "legit bands" that do the same or similar things. Kiss, Gwar, Behemoth, Ghost, Mgla, all have an image, but Slipknot... oh no, they sold out _because_ of the gimmick of their costumes. Do you need black/white corpse(ish) paint to get a pass?
TL;DR it's entertainment for the most part. Imagery isn't required, but shouldn't be condemned.
Gawd fucking dammit! Sarah brining up the chicken reminded me that there's a dead cat on the way to and from work with it's guts hanging out. Haven't seen a dead cat in a long time, if ever.
It’s ironic that a band based on Old Church Slavonic would have a schism.
Sam's comment about Gene buying out Banger got me harder than it should have 🤣🤣🤣
Did anyone catch the name of the Black Metal band from Toronto Sarah mentioned around the 33 min mark? They sound like they're worth checking out!
Thantifaxath albums called Sacred White Noise
How can one over look the fact that Link Wray invented the sound of the metal guitar?
Ritchie Valens brought the Mexican / Indigenous background to the history of metal
What was the name of the Toronto based black metal band mentioned around minute 34?
Thantifaxath, their albums called Sacred White Noise very progressive black metal.
Asagraum is an all female black metal band that wears corpse paint and their music is pretty sick! Nothing super innovative, but it can certainly scratch that kind of black metal itch.
Clive Archer from Venom had the first corpsepaint in metal!
I kinda wish they touched down more on controversal symbolism and the uses of "satanic"/"nazi" imagery (pentagrams, upside down crosses, iron crosses, german eagles) in bands style. Bands like Motorhead, saxon and Manowar have what some might consider nazi imagry or bands like slayer, king diamon/merciful fate have a more satanic asthetic and the misconception that follows when someone looking in on the genera doesnt look into the bands actual ideology/lyrical content and shouldent be grouped with neich "sub-generas" like NSMB. Still a great podcast nonetheless
About halfway through the episode... I'm guessing PORTAL and their imagery and consistent anonymity in the internet age won't be mentioned
I can NOT believe that you did NOT speak about Doro Pesch, the Queen of Metal, she does has that Priest imagery as a woman.
1:26 well this aged horribly in less than 24 hours...
At times I feel the outfits side, like Slipknot and Ghost, is gimmicky, however if the look fits the music then I guess it gets a pass? I don't know. It's hard to say really. Shit I'm mid-30s, love wearing old baggy J'nco jeans (not the super huge parachute ones, just baggy) as a death, doom and thrash fan. And as I am sure anyone around my age knows, jnco was the nu-metal look. If I were in a band performing locally, hell I'd probably have a couple pairs of jeans and a few shirts just to use for when my band performed lol. There could be a whole other episode based on metal clothing in general lol
In the early eighties, i heard the word "poser" constantly. Im sure everyone here knows what a poser is. What i loved about thrash, namely the big four, who were among some of the bands that i dug when i first listened to metal, is that they were themselves, on and off the stage. They wore the same shit on tuesday afternoon that theydid on friday night at the club. Maybe im old fashioned, but that is real, to me. If you wear a costume to gig out, then you are portraying a character and are an actor, hence, lying to everyone. That, to me, is a poser. Let the music be the product. Also, does everyone know the reason that leather is associated with metal bands? Rob halford and the stereotypical gay biker bar has everything to do with it. I always thought that was funny!! And, yes, i still have and wear my biker leather with my optional denim with sleeves cutoff all patched out! Dont be a poser!
You get hung up on the s&m fashion influence. You forget biker leather armour being appealing in the fantasy/history part of metal lyrics. Everyone was primed for more leather and studs etc. Halford would honestly at the time just seen the potential for it existing and it caught on. Also the real beauty of his sexuality in regards to metal or that no-one really ever gave a fuck. It's only made something of when somone wants to use it for thier agenda. I'm gay and hate that people want to use it as some banner to prove we exist or something. The whole idea of equality is to just blend in and not be judged for ones sexuality. Rant rant rant lol. I love this channel but stuff like the above grinds my gears. Grrrrr.
Best Norwegian Corpse Paint was made by just being pale and using ground-up remains of burnt wood from churchfires.
Some still have some left and use these charcoal bits in their makeup.
Some sold said churchfire remains bits, like Frost.
Thats just marketing dude
Great chat guys.
I would've liked to hear GWAR mentioned a bit more. Dave Brockie's death has been, even to this day, one of the only celebrity deaths that actually affected me and I think a major part of that was the character of Oderus Urungus. In the back of my mind I knew they were all humans but it was way more fun to buy in to the lore of an alien band that crash landed in Antarctica and is now touring the countryside offing humans as they go, ripping the tits off the queen and feeding the pope to a giant space worm.
Great music paired with great visuals and story.
If all the show stuff is so fucking wonderful, why does everybody want to see their favorite bands in small clubs when they get the chance ?
Who, if presented with the choice, would rather see Slayer in a stadium with cool fire and lights and all that, than seeing them playing just as 4 people in a bar ?
The thing about Priest is when they found the leather and studs look they didn't look gay. They looked like a gang from Death Wish.
Helloween :keeper Of the Seven Keys The Fantasy Element The Universe contained in the Keepers' hood
How did Gwar only get 2 brief mentions in this discussion? This is a band of alien warlords that came to rule the earth ffs in almost every interview it was Oderus talking not Dave they fully embraced they lore and aesthetic over many mediums including comics, movies, tv shows and even an appearance on Donahue. I mean they are more than even just a band they are an artistic collective that is bigger than the sum of its parts and has the potential to outlive all it's members. Just seems discussion worthy within this topic is all I'm saying.
Ps I forgot the Gwarbq festival and the Gwar bar
super sad Chris Barnes not included
Sam is either dealing with an uncomfortable chair or a really uncomfortable underwear.
In goth there's also make up. The electronic band Das Ich uses it, but only hair and painted body. My beloved death metal bands do not make themselves up, only album covers and logos full of gore and violence.
In contemporary art world there's an American artist called Paul McCartney- who performed into videos in 70's and 80's with masks. To create freaks characters to mirror American people doing nasty strange tastes with ketchup, oil, mayonese etc. Primus old videos reminds me him.
Primus and rammstein could be mentioned to, even though there're not hard to core metal but a mix of metal with German Romantic and electronic or creating own style of craziness.
Gwar is killer
Metal does has a image to it but for me I think you can wear whatever you want in Metal to a degree unless you are wearing Metal stuff just to be cool like a Metal Tee and know noting of the band that on your Shirt
Agreed
GWAR
When do women get to be demons? Well, check out Diamanda Galas performing “The Litanies of Satan(1982). Can’t possibly get more demon-like than that. Not Metal I know, but worth a thought.
while Ghosts certainly utilizes metal imagery and lore but not at all a metal band musically speaking just metal by association. I like Ghost, not a huge fan but not a hater either (well kinda, some songs are just plain goofy) but they are an excellent example of being theatrical but they're also a great example of diluting metal insofar as the popular masses and how they view it. TLDR: Ghost is a bad example of a metal band for someone who doesn't know metal.
Just saw the Living Colour sticker and now I wanna kiss Sam Dunnes forehead
Kanye doesn't think about his shoes as much as you'd assume. As an owner of multiple pairs of Yeezys, they're the most uninventive pieces of shit ever made. But damn are they comfortable.
Corpspaint is definitely not dead and even used by women, Asagraum is a perfect example. Once again I am left waiting for a Black Metal specialist at Banger xD. Great edition of Lock Horns once again besides Sarah talking mad shit on a lot of bands I like (no hard feelings tho
it's episode 5, not 4
I agree with sarah,i dissagree with lisa. " metal has the best imagery and lore"
No mention of In This Moment!!! Maria has gone through few images for sure .... Imagery is very important in the music world... I remembered I would buy albums base on the art of the cover... Image that always sticks with me is the cover of Jailbreak by ACDC ... Just a brutal image !!!
I think an episode exploring social intolerance and gay culture within Metal could be really interesting. Aside from Rob Halford I always thought it must have been a strange position for Ghaal being both gay and such a prominent figure within Black Metal. Especially as certain parts of Black Metal wander into far right ideologies, for example Jon Nödtveidt of Dissection went to prison for the murder of a gay man. This could also be a good opportunity to revisit the "Women in Metal" episode which I remember being mentioned as an episode to possibly revisit at some point.
Ty Logan I would watch the fuck out of a queer metal ep. So many layers to dig through.
Nsbm is very, very small but generates to much attention.
I never felt like metal was homophobic and black metal was never homophobic either.
Dani Filth always had something feminine in his stage presence.
The acceptance of homosexuality in metal went parallel with the acceptance of homosexualoty in the rest of the world.
And i am sure that people like Rob Halford and in a smaller scale also Ghaal had a huge positive influence on acceptance of homosexuality in general being rolemodels for many generations young people.
MORTIIS
funny, Sam Dunn and Banger tv folks hate so much Judas Priest that they don't mention Judas Priest.
Here's an entire Lock Horns episode devoted to Judas Priest, a band we love: ua-cam.com/video/4nrJcUcaTQ4/v-deo.html
To quote Frank Zappa. Shut up and play yer guitar.
Thrash metal is the CNN of Metal
Corpse paint is very alive and well, and no the new bands that do it do not suck. Smoulder on the other hand..
Also, women who wear corpse paint - Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult...Totengefluster... Check them out.
Those are very unappealing chairs!